Motorcycle licensing changes announced

[Bounce001]

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/10161082/motorcycle-licensing-changes-announced/

Didn't think it was too bad. Like the getting rid of the 70km/h speed limit and addressing the state of the roads. Will wait and see what the hidden things are!

[Bald Eagle]

The usual emotive use of dodgy stats to put a negative spin on motorcycles as second class road users
"
"Motorcyclists are 20 times more at risk of being involved in a fatal or serious injury crash than car drivers per kilometre driven. With more new motorcyclists every day, these steps are vital to keep riders safe on the road."
Since declining in the late 1990s, motorcycle-related deaths have increased by around 80 percent since 2003. This has coincided with a 68 percent increase in the number of motorcycles in New Zealand."

[Bounce001]

And what about scooters

"A proposal to introduce a moped-specific licence has not been progressed as part of this Rule.

"Moped licences would require major change and they don't yet appear to offer the significant safety benefits of these other proposals. This measure will be delayed so that the NZ Transport Agency can prioritise the other actions in this package," says Mr Joyce."

Or is that just in the too hard basket. They probably can't split the stats cos their all under motorcycles.

[oneofsix]

why is it taking them so long to get rid of the stupid 70k restriction?! this should have been gone 6 months ago.

[bogan]

I think good changes, seems like the main parts will be removal of 70kmhr, and swap to power/weight restrictions. They have even been a bit clearer on the stats! (still using the most unfavourable ones they can find though <_<)


"Moped licences would require major change and they don't yet appear to offer the significant safety benefits of these other proposals. This measure will be delayed so that the NZ Transport Agency can prioritise the other actions in this package," says Mr Joyce.

That bit I don't agree with, scoots have the second highest accident rate per cc range (after 51-250cc), and they only need a car license.

[bogan]

And what about scooters

"A proposal to introduce a moped-specific licence has not been progressed as part of this Rule.

"Moped licences would require major change and they don't yet appear to offer the significant safety benefits of these other proposals. This measure will be delayed so that the NZ Transport Agency can prioritise the other actions in this package," says Mr Joyce."

Or is that just in the too hard basket. They probably can't split the stats cos their all under motorcycles.

The do separate them injuries by cc, though I have been unable to figure out where they obtain the km part, that might not have been recorded separately for different cc groups.

[Scuba_Steve]

good start but I see restricted has just become even more redundant than before. Still reckon 2yrs learners straight to full, restricted offers nothing.
By the looks they're still fucking up mopeds, they appear still to require absolutely no 2-wheeled knowledge or skill but of-course will still count against motorbikes in the stats.

[oneofsix]

That bit I don't agree with, scoots have the second highest accident rate per cc range (after 51-250cc), and they only need a car license.

I also could not understand that statement. What is so hard? Or is the real question 'who are they going to piss off'? and I don't think its your scoot riding uni student they are worried about.

[Scuba_Steve]

Actually thinking about it, the mopeds they probably don't want to change because they are keeping the "motorcycle" accidents high to suit their propaganda/agenda which really brings the question what is their agenda??? Extort more money or remove bikes from the road???

[Bald Eagle]

Extort more money or remove bikes from the road???

Both , more money while they remove them from the road over time. Win/win - get paid to get rid.

[ducatilover]

Has anyone else noticed the claimed "20 times more likely blah blah" is always changing? I've read 16x, 19x and God knows what else :facepalm:

This could be used by MAGNZ or whomever couldn't it? If there are going to be big claims like that made, a bit of consistency would go a long way.

[oneofsix]

Has anyone else noticed the claimed "20 times more likely blah blah" is always changing? I've read 16x, 19x and God knows what else :facepalm:

This could be used by MAGNZ or whomever couldn't it? If there are going to be big claims like that made, a bit of consistency would go a long way.

heard a British cop quote of 36 times more likely to die on TV last week and the old saying was where Britain goes NZ is sure to follow. (does that remind anyone else of a nursery rhyme involving sheep)

[nzspokes]

There goes the resale value of your 250....

[bogan]

Has anyone else noticed the claimed "20 times more likely blah blah" is always changing? I've read 16x, 19x and God knows what else :facepalm:

This could be used by MAGNZ or whomever couldn't it? If there are going to be big claims like that made, a bit of consistency would go a long way.

They're from different years and different reports, i think 09 was 16x, and 10 was 18x, and a release from Prick Smith misquoted it as 20x. The figures per registered bike are still around 3.5x, but nobody's agenda gets filled using those :rolleyes:

[Bald Eagle]

They're from different years and different reports, i think 09 was 16x, and 10 was 18x, and a release from Prick Smith misquoted it as 20x. The figures per registered bike are still around 3.5x, but nobody's agenda gets filled using those :rolleyes:

They all fail to mention that with the large increase of number of motorbikes, and the fact that the accident rate per 1000 bikes has significantly declined.

[ducatilover]

They're from different years and different reports, i think 09 was 16x, and 10 was 18x, and a release from Prick Smith misquoted it as 20x. The figures per registered bike are still around 3.5x, but nobody's agenda gets filled using those :rolleyes:

That's pathetic. :angry:


A few bikes may creep up in price now, I was thinking of getting another CB400 superfour to commute on, but they're overpriced as it is

[bogan]

They all fail to mention that with the large increase of number of motorbikes, and the fact that the accident rate per 1000 bikes has significantly declined.

They're saving that up until they want to put more acc tax on us I reckon, look how well it did last time... :sic:


Actually thinking about it, the mopeds they probably don't want to change because they are keeping the "motorcycle" accidents high to suit their propaganda/agenda which really brings the question what is their agenda??? Extort more money or remove bikes from the road???

Mopeds feature far less in the fatal stats, and from the total road safety numbers they generally quote, that is what they are focused on. Maybe they just didn't want to change to much at once, as I really can't see any reasons to leave the moped class unchanged. We have already seen they aren't too worried whether their propaganda sticks or not, so I doubt that is the reason.

[Katman]

They all fail to mention that with the large increase of number of motorbikes, and the fact that the accident rate per 1000 bikes has significantly declined.

Even the accident rate per 1000 bikes is meaningless.

I have 5 bikes - and it is becoming increasingly common for motorcyclists to own more than one.

[Ender EnZed]

good start but I see restricted has just become even more redundant than before. Still reckon 2yrs learners straight to full, restricted offers nothing.

+1

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only difference now will be having an L plate displayed. Given that the restricted test is piss easy (has anyone ever failed it on a bike?), it seems like a waste of paperwork having the extra class between Learners and Full.

[slofox]

Will wait and see what the hidden things are!

Like "6km/hr speed limit and man with red flag and bell to walk in front" ?

[Ender EnZed]

I have 5 bikes - and it is becoming increasingly common for motorcyclists to own more than one.

Any evidence for that?

Without doing any research: I would expect number of motorcycles per motorcyclist to increase with wealth which generally increases with age. I'm sure the average age of motorcyclists is much higher now than in the 70s but I wouldn't be so confident about the last 10 years. The born agains might be balanced out by the more recently licenced, who tend to be younger.

This is of course speculation, I'm hoping someone will be bothered proving me right or wrong.

[Katman]

Any evidence for that?



Yeah, I counted them on my fingers before I posted. :bleh:

[Scuba_Steve]

(has anyone ever failed it on a bike?)

Yea I have, blew an indicator bulb on the way there, the wanker wouldn't even let me run across the road to the shell to pick up a new one, fuck that pissed me off...

[bogan]

Any evidence for that?

Without doing any research: I would expect number of motorcycles per motorcyclist to increase with wealth which generally increases with age. I'm sure the average age of motorcyclists is much higher now than in the 70s but I wouldn't be so confident about the last 10 years. The born agains might be balanced out by the more recently licenced, who tend to be younger.

This is of course speculation, I'm hoping someone will be bothered proving me right or wrong.

That sort of thing is at the limit of what stats can provide, multiple bike ownership may be one for yourself and one for the wife or kids or work etc, older licensed riders might not ride anymore.... I agree with katman in that it is still not a perfect measure, but I think it is far more meaningful than a per/km one. Better yet would be a distribution table with number of kms traveled along one axis, and relative risk on the other. Even just a per/km measure for the different cc brackets I think would paint a different picture.

[Scuba_Steve]

Any evidence for that?

Without doing any research: I would expect number of motorcycles per motorcyclist to increase with wealth which generally increases with age. I'm sure the average age of motorcyclists is much higher now than in the 70s but I wouldn't be so confident about the last 10 years. The born agains might be balanced out by the more recently licenced, who tend to be younger.

This is of course speculation, I'm hoping someone will be bothered proving me right or wrong.

if it helps I'm on (or below?) the avg NZ wage, younger than the "average age" you speak of & I have 3 bikes (2 road going).

[Vinz0r]

When are these proposed changes due to go through?

[Edit] Nevermind, apparently my reading comprehension is lacking. "which will come into force in October this year or October 2012".

[Katman]

Any evidence for that?



I was going to say, "I set up a poll about it a while ago" (not very accurate evidence, I know) - but then realised that might upset Maha again.

[Voltaire]

Has anyone else noticed the claimed "20 times more likely blah blah" is always changing? I've read 16x, 19x and God knows what else :facepalm:

This could be used by MAGNZ or whomever couldn't it? If there are going to be big claims like that made, a bit of consistency would go a long way.

Riding to work on the motorway with the poor standard of driving you get here I fell at least 20 time more vulnerable than in my very solid 2001 VW van.
I see lots of scooters on my other commute down Dom Road....they ride like they are visible and drivers care....... I did not realize you could ride one on a car licence

[Ender EnZed]

I was going to say, "I set up a poll about it a while ago" (not very accurate evidence, I know) - but then realised that might upset Maha again.

I'm sure the average number of motorcycles per current motorcyclist is far greater than 1, just not that there's any reason to think that this number (whatever it is) is higher now than 10 years ago.


That sort of thing is at the limit of what stats can provide

Would it be difficult to find the number of newly registered bikes, number of bike registrations cancelled and number of Class 6 learner licences issued in each year?

[rastuscat]

I heard Charlie Lamb speak last night. He loves stats.

Basically I came away thinking that you can choose a position on something, then manipulate the stats to suit. Worked for Nick Smith.

According to Charlie, the worst bike in terms of crashes is a 250. It's the most common engine size by far. Heaps more than any other engine size. And why? Coz the riders of 250s are, normally, the most inexperienced group. SURPRISE !!

So why does my bloody 800 cost so much to relicence?

Harumph............

[Shadows]

Bounty Boy is a cunt

[bogan]

So why does my bloody 800 cost so much to relicence?

Because owners of larger bikes generally have more income. I'm not sure if they decided the income compensation part of ACC justified the price split, or whether they just figure we won't miss it as much :angry:.

Manipulated stats are ok at a glance, or media quoting only the summary, but under any close scrutiny the erroneous assumptions used show through. Then you have the problem of how people would still rather believe an perpetuate the summary from the manipulated set.

[Voltaire]

I have 4 bikes ( two in bits) with rego on hold....I wonder if they are counted in the stats....?

[bogan]

I have 4 bikes ( two in bits) with rego on hold....I wonder if they are counted in the stats....?

Depends how you read them :shifty: They are recorded in different categories though.

[davereid]

I asked ACC under the OIA what it actually cost to collect rego, if you consider the cost of actually managing the exemption system, the call center to manage it, the number of people that avoid it, the cost of debt collection etc.

I thought it was a simple question that any competent manger would know - ie what is the cost of your invoicing and debt collection ?

They answered "The document or data does not exist - we can't give you an answer as we don't know"

I must say that I was stumped - it never crossed my mind that ACC would be so amateurish that they don't even know the basics of their business.

But I soon realised that the fact they didnt know, told me more about the quality of ACC management than the figures would have.

But thats the facts.

So I'm hardly surprised when NZTA decide 660cc is safe for learners, based on solid international research.

And ACC say 600cc is deadly.

Once again ACC just demonstrate that they are incompetent.

[RobGassit]

By the looks they're still fucking up mopeds, they appear still to require absolutely no 2-wheeled knowledge or skill but of-course will still count against motorbikes in the stats.[/QUOTE]

I couldn't agree with you more on scooter traffic.In Wellington they wobble around between lanes at 35 to 40 kph, like tourists looking for a park.You just can't be sure what the hell they are going to do next.Bloody nightmare! And when they do crash, it's going in the stats against motorcyclists.

[gordons]

By the looks they're still fucking up mopeds, they appear still to require absolutely no 2-wheeled knowledge or skill but of-course will still count against motorbikes in the stats.


I couldn't agree with you more on scooter traffic.In Wellington they wobble around between lanes at 35 to 40 kph, like tourists looking for a park.You just can't be sure what the hell they are going to do next.Bloody nightmare! And when they do crash, it's going in the stats against motorcyclists.

So this means if a scooter has a crash the stat count goes against motorcycles although the scooter rider did not have a motorcycle licence? :confused: Holy crap, in which dictionary or google ‘hit’ did they see this definition of a scooter? Way to easy ammo to skew figures to suit in my opinion. Please tell me I’m confused.

[Hopeful Bastard]

Is there a list available for which bikes learners WILL be allowed to ride in NZ?

The current lists I have seen have been Australian/UK. After the NZ one if there is one, As my Bandit doesnt feature on any of the lists..


Also, Does this mean I will have to purchase a new bike or can I keep this one?

[Spearfish]

So this means if a scooter has a crash the stat count goes against motorcycles although the scooter rider did not have a motorcycle licence? :confused: Holy crap, in which dictionary or google ‘hit’ did they see this definition of a scooter? Way to easy ammo to skew figures to suit in my opinion. Please tell me I’m confused.

They are supposed to record the cc in the stats part of the crash report. Thats why bigger bikes get the higher ACC.......cause they crash more.

Mopeds are 50cc and under 2kw and $176 per year to rego..hahahahahhaha suckers!

Scooters are from 60cc up to currently 800cc and need the full rego and a bike licence at $400 +...good value for a 70cc bike I reckon, $400 bucks

[BevanPT]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10748840

The Government has confirmed a series of rule changes it hopes will reduce the high rate of motorcycle accidents.

What gets me is that these changes are all aimed towards the motorcycle rider. Where's the same targeting of car drivers to improve their driving? Why aren't there the same restrictions on the engine size for novice car drivers? Why not have the same licensing system for car drivers?

[pzkpfw]

They are supposed to record the cc in the stats part of the crash report. Thats why bigger bikes get the higher ACC.......cause they crash more.


Not just that.

As noted in a post above yours, owners of bigger bikes tend to earn more, so they cost ACC more in terms of income-related payments; so they need to collect more from such owners.


(It's actually a reason why owners of newer "SAFER" cars - don't - get cheaper ACC; because they actually cost ACC more (owners of newer "safer" cars have those newer "safer" cars because they earn more...).)

[Indiana_Jones]

So they say the cc limit is out dated and power weight is the way to go....

So why the fuck is my rego judged by cc ratings? oh wait that's right, that nick 'cunt lips' smith said people with bigger cc bikes earn more.

I hope he gets an pick axe in his fucking head.

Edit: I see pzkpfw got there first!

-Indy

[tnarg]

It appears the new rule for approved bikes will come into effect on October 2012.

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/2011/0306/latest/DLM3956578.html

[shonofear]

ha, yea the original news thread said October 2011 or October 2012, always seems to be the latter.
but seems like its actually gonna happen this time for you NZers.
since im Ozzie and been reading heaps about this since coming here initially thinking id be on a same LAMS power to weight ratio system was forced onto a 250cc.
at least i can sell me 250 bike when i leave with some value left still on it (Dec)

[tigertim20]

There goes the resale value of your 250....
Good,I have thought for a long time that the perceived value of alot of 250s were way tofucking high.Of course, it will probably be quite good for the reslae of the eligible 600's and 400's too, so there will be a counter balance to that.

Any evidence for that?

Without doing any research: I would expect number of motorcycles per motorcyclist to increase with wealth which generally increases with age. I'm sure the average age of motorcyclists is much higher now than in the 70s but I wouldn't be so confident about the last 10 years. The born agains might be balanced out by the more recently licenced, who tend to be younger.

This is of course speculation, I'm hoping someone will be bothered proving me right or wrong.
you could really only rely on their stats to prove/disprove that, and we all know how innaccurate their stats are. I imaginehe is going off personal experience, and I would agree. Ive reduced the number of bikes I own from 6 or so down to 1 this year alone.

Is there a list available for which bikes learners WILL be allowed to ride in NZ?

The current lists I have seen have been Australian/UK. After the NZ one if there is one, As my Bandit doesnt feature on any of the lists..


Also, Does this mean I will have to purchase a new bike or can I keep this one?

youll be able to ride your 250 I think, I understood that they were basically going to copy the aussie list. that means NO 250cc 2 strokes, but all 4 stroke 250s are ok, after that there will be a list of approved bikes up the the limit of 650cc that youcan have. Other than that, you will I understand, be able to write in with the details of a bike you intend to use, and if they agree that it fulfills the criteria, they will allow it, even if it isnt on the list. I guess the list will update every few years to add brand new models etc etc. though I do wonder what will happen whensay a particulr approved model gets a new engine that has a power output which exceeds the criteria . . .

[Ender EnZed]

my Bandit doesnt feature on any of the lists..


That's because it's under 250cc and not explicitly banned. The only named 250cc or under bikes are the ones you aren't allowed to ride.

[steve_t]

So will a LAMS approved 650cc still cop the highest rego cost?

[Movistar]

The 70kph restriction may be gone, but it won't be long until the maximum speed for everyone will be 90kph...

[tigertim20]

So will a LAMS approved 650cc still cop the highest rego cost?

of course it will apply!!! they arent going to do fuckall to help us out!! frankly the fact that theyre bringing this in at all is surprising and several years overdue in my opinion.

[bogan]

frankly the fact that theyre bringing this in at all is surprising and several years overdue in my opinion.

only several years? the bulk of the high performance 250s were made almost 20 years ago! and they have only gone downhill since. With the exemption of the Aprillia RS250 which I think was the last great 250 in production.

[Max Preload]

I see lots of scooters on my other commute down Dom Road....they ride like they are visible and drivers care....... I did not realise you could ride one on a car licenceYou can't. Only a moped.

[Shadows]

good value for a 70cc bike I reckon, $400 bucks

What, to buy?

[Spearfish]

What, to buy?

Rego is probably half its value lol

[Bullitt]

frankly the fact that theyre bringing this in at all is surprising and several years overdue in my opinion.

When I came back to biking about 5 years ago they were talking as though it was imminent then so its surprised me it didnt come in a few years ago.

I'm currently in the market for an over 250cc bike which would meet the new criteria so maybe I should hurry up and get one, though I doubt enough learners will buy a bike over a year before the new rules comes in to affect me at this stage.

[explode64]

Does any one know what partof the new law will be introduced in Oct 2011? If the law dosn't change before 2012 I should have my full so wont be affected, but if it changes in OCt this year there is no way im selling my RGV and buying another bike for a few months.
Is there any stats to back up that more people are hurt on two strokes? There are most likely far more people injured on CBR, ZXR250 etc than NSR, TZR and RGV’s as they are so rear.

[Desert Eagle]

Its nice to see a change to the system that makes a bit of sense.

I just wonder about bikes that have had some performance upgrades that put them over the power/weight limit?

for example if I put gold tape on my rims (less weight) and give it a red powerband and top up my indicators with high performance indicator fluid..:eek5:

[rastuscat]

only several years? the bulk of the high performance 250s were made almost 20 years ago! and they have only gone downhill since. With the exemption of the Aprillia RS250 which I think was the last great 250 in production.

The graduated restriction of 250cc has always been a joke. I got in a world of trouble on an RD250LC back in the day. RZ250s were beasts. Anything with a 2 stroke motor and a throttle made the law an ass. The power to weight ratio would always have been a better measure.

That way you could have learned to ride a CB400N, which couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding. Cool bike, predictable but not too torquey, too heavy, just a good bike to learn some good skills on.

Thing is, it's not until you spend a couple of decades on bigger bikes that you realise how much fun is to be had on 250, and how the skills you learn on little bikes translate to safer riding on the bigger bikes.

Just my musings.

Donuts.

[GrayWolf]

[QUOTE=bogan;1130143658]only several years? the bulk of the high performance 250s were made almost 20 years ago! and they have only gone downhill since. With the exemption of the Aprillia RS250 which I think was the last great 250 in production.[/QUOTE

Therin lies the problem. (high performance) At least unlike the UK Govt, who over about a 2year period made warning noises over 250cc performance, then with the advent of the Yam RD250LC introduced a 125 law for learners, the NZ Govt has been predictably slow. In fact at the time (early 80's) Yam let it be known there was the RD125LC in the wings capable of about 90mph... UK Govt immediate reaction? 12hp power to weight restriction, as well as a 125 limit.
There are many interesting differences between here and the UK for licence laws, some to me (as an old grumpy bastard) just dont make sense...
UK.... no one was allowed to drive a car till 17yrs old. Learner licence meant you HAD to be accompanied by a full licence holder, period. You could not drive without one. At 16yrs old? The law allowed you to ride a 'moped'... most from the 70's will remember the FS1E (SS50) yam and the Honda SS50, Suzuki AP50 etc..... So nearly every driver cut there teeth for a year on 2 wheels.
I want to see scooters/mopeds removed from car licences,,, I have on occassions followed them being ridden by obvious 'cage drivers' who just do not have the spatial or peripheral awareness required. And YES from riding a moped in the 70's which were capable of 80kph (50mph) 70kph is just downright lethal on open roads.

From hindsight, as much as I enjoyed my high performance (then) 250's and would have HATED restrictions... we were to put it bluntly FUCKING LUCKY to survive. Go to a shop at 17, buy the 'dogs bollox' 250, slap L plates on, and ride it out the door.... A graduated licence system makes sense... in fact I would prefer to see the licence system go further.... (a la Europe) set CC/power stages that you have to pass licence or training to progress to the next level. It really would keep immature and inexperienced riders off the higher powered machines. If that statement upsets a few sensitive Ego's? Tough titties!!. Reality is over the last 40 years the performance of both cars and bikes has risen exponentialy... but the performance of the rider/driver has NOT. Can I ride my ZZR to its limit? Doubt it, but then neither could 98% of riders out there either. Ego and Bullshit will say they can..... in which case the nation has several 10's of thousand Aaron Slight clones on the road.
What I found interesting is when people I know have visited London and driven even in that rat race city for traffic... have commented how polite, courteous, and on the whole well behaved drivers are.... and realised how downright aggressive, arrogant and bad local drivers are.......
So yes I am all for graduated licence systems and for compulsory insurance... in fact the compulsory insurance factor alone would prohibit many driver/rider's of high power machines at young ages. Regardless of individuals who are in that age group and are sensible and have some skills... the majority do not! Even older riders who are new or returning after some period are not 'up to speed' for rider skills... Stepped licences would at least allow time to improve and aquire the knowledge needed to ride a high power machine competently.