Lowering a bike, good?

[nzspokes]

If you were to lower a bike by 20mm front and rear would this help handling?

If of course clearance would work.

[ducatilover]

Depends on the bike, I'm sure someone in the days of black and white photos made a bike that's 20mm too high....

[DrunkenMistake]

Depends on the bike, I'm sure someone in the days of black and white photos made a bike that's 20mm too high....


246019

You mean like this?

[ducatilover]

246019

You mean like this?

Older, like this <IMG SRC="http://cb-nchu.cocolog-tcom.com/photos/cb_photo/cb250rs_1.jpg"> :bleh:

[DrunkenMistake]

Older, like this :bleh:

Bahahaha..

How tall are you OP? im 5'4 and Im on a VFR 400 on my tip toes, you'll be right.

[Robert Taylor]

Absolutely DO NOT use lowering links if its a single shock bike with a linkage

[DrunkenMistake]

Absolutely DO NOT use lowering links if its a single shock bike with a linkage

Any reason why?

Out of curiosity,
as im looking at getting a bigger bike in a few years and I am Virtually challenged

[ducatilover]

Any reason why?

Out of curiosity,
as im looking at getting a bigger bike in a few years and I am Virtually challenged
Stroke ratio? You should know :rofl:

[DrunkenMistake]

Stroke ratio? You should know :rofl:

Lmao!

I know what you are getting at there,
But when It comes to suspension im about as retarded as a muppet trying to do a wheelie and fucking it... Oh.. Sorry DL

[ducatilover]

Lmao!

I know what you are getting at there,
But when It comes to suspension im about as retarded as a muppet trying to do a wheelie and fucking it... Oh.. Sorry DL

it lowered the bike didn't it? :facepalm:

[DrunkenMistake]

it lowered the bike didn't it? :facepalm:

Lowered the value anyways:yawn:

[Gremlin]

If you were to lower a bike by 20mm front and rear would this help handling?

If of course clearance would work.
Depends. And in some ways, lowering it could worsen handling. Make sure it's done properly by people that know what they are doing, and not those that think they know what they are doing.

[nzspokes]

ummmmmmmmmmmm

[ducatilover]

Yup like that. Seems the only reasonably priced shocks are 20mm shorter than mine. And as my bike is under sprung im probably sitting at 50% sag anyway. :gob:

Could always eat less pies. :bye:

Thought about buying some memory foam and making a cool custom seat? Not exactly hard to do, I'll be doing it on my bike as I want it reasonably comfortable, same geometry (well, sort of) and nice looking. I hear good things about the memory foam.

[LBD]

246050246051246052246053



im looking at getting a bigger bike in a few years and I am Virtually challenged

I too am Virtually challenged....at computer games. And Vertically challenged on my MTS.

When lowering watch for clearance between the front mudguard and front frame member or in a case I came accross a while back, between the mudguard and radiator on a Duc S4...Buggar!

Attached is an article I posted here a while back on the subject....sorry the pages are out of order

[nzspokes]

246050246051246052246053




I too am Virtually challenged....at computer games. And Vertically challenged on my MTS.

When lowering watch for clearance between the front mudguard and front frame member or in a case I came accross a while back, between the mudguard and radiator on a Duc S4...Buggar!

Attached is an article I posted here a while back on the subject....sorry the pages are out of order

Sweet, confirms a lot of what my thoughts were.

I was going to remove the fork topcaps and let it fall to full travel and see where it ends up. At full travel now I have 50mm before the lower crown.

[Sable]

Hope you know how much damping oil should be in there. You could try moving the clamps down the forks a little?

[warewolf]

Any reason why?

Out of curiosity,Have a read of this older thread: Lowering the bike (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/96156-Lowering-the-bike), especially post 21 onwards.

[Robert Taylor]

Have a read of this older thread: Lowering the bike (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/96156-Lowering-the-bike), especially post 21 onwards.

Thanks for dredging that thread. What amazes me is how many riders / dealers go for the ''cheap and easy'' option and then all too often find out the hard way the very real negatives the often happen. Doing it properly works out more cost effective in the long run.

[nzspokes]

Thanks for dredging that thread. What amazes me is how many riders / dealers go for the ''cheap and easy'' option and then all too often find out the hard way the very real negatives the often happen. Doing it properly works out more cost effective in the long run.

Not on an old bike it doesnt.

[pete-blen]

Thanks for dredging that thread. What amazes me is how many riders / dealers go for the ''cheap and easy'' option and then all too often find out the hard way the very real negatives the often happen. Doing it properly works out more cost effective in the long run.

You are making the assumption that everyone wants ,needs a race bike..
A set of lowering links are 100s & 100s of dollars more cost effective for the intended
use I give a bike.. I can't see how a set of properly designed/made link can course
componet damage... So I fail to see the "negatives" you are talking about...
There could/would be slight geomitrey changes with lowering links... but on the hole its not going to efect joe avarage...
The diffrents in ride height/surspention angles between a 60kg rider & a 150kg rider on the same bike is lightly a bigger geomitrey change
than what the links would give..

But you are right... If you think you are a Mr Rossi or Mr Copins... send the $ and do it right... but rquirements and $ don't
make it possable or required by most avarage riders...

[warewolf]

Why is it that so many people think good suspension is only for racers?? Why is it that ppl first make the engine more powerful/responsive/noisy whatever, when they can't get the existing power to the ground because of lousy suspension?

Pete, did you even read the quoted thread?

Cost of lowering links = $100 - $150
Cost of shock tweaking during a routine service = $0 upwards.

Ummm what's the downside in dollars again??

[Subike]

Virtically challenged, how about changing the seat thickness., I got 50mm lower on my XS, just by getting an upholsterer to make the foam thinner, then recover the seat,
I am only 75kg, and my boney ass is still comfortable with the reduced cushion thickness.
I have also heard of virtically challenged people having 20mm soles added to their boots.
Now there togeather is 75mm, and you have not even touched the suspension...
And I bet the $ spent would be far less too.

[pete-blen]

Why is it that so many people think good suspension is only for racers?? Why is it that ppl first make the engine more powerful/responsive/noisy whatever, when they can't get the existing power to the ground because of lousy suspension?

Pete, did you even read the quoted thread?

Cost of lowering links = $100 - $150


let yer have that one..
I was sort of thinking in my own situration..
A $10 bit of alloy in the mill..

[Robert Taylor]

Not on an old bike it doesnt.

Im at a loss to understand why a deficient level of function and safety is ''ok'' on an older bike??????????????????

[ducatilover]

I'm not a fast rider, but, one can never have good enough suspension. I'm thinking of a few upgrades for mine when money allows.

Do it properly.

Same goes with brakes.

[Robert Taylor]

You are making the assumption that everyone wants ,needs a race bike..
A set of lowering links are 100s & 100s of dollars more cost effective for the intended
use I give a bike.. I can't see how a set of properly designed/made link can course
componet damage... So I fail to see the "negatives" you are talking about...
There could/would be slight geomitrey changes with lowering links... but on the hole its not going to efect joe avarage...
The diffrents in ride height/surspention angles between a 60kg rider & a 150kg rider on the same bike is lightly a bigger geomitrey change
than what the links would give..

But you are right... If you think you are a Mr Rossi or Mr Copins... send the $ and do it right... but rquirements and $ don't
make it possable or required by most avarage riders...

Actually it is you that has made the assumption, and a huge one at that. Whilst we have a huge presence in road racing in fact the very highest percentage of our day to day customers are ordinary everyday road going riders. Customers that seek a much better level of ride comfort but at the same time better chassis and pitch control.
And a number of them want a lower ride height but without chernobyling how well the suspension might otherwise work. And a number more are those who have been convinced by keyboard jockies or dealers to fit lowering links. To find that their suspension now works like cr.p.
I think we just might have a lot more experience with this and have evidenced the very real negatives that all too often occur. Try pricing up a whole aftermarket linkage system.....

[nzspokes]

Im at a loss to understand why a deficient level of function and safety is ''ok'' on an older bike??????????????????

Ok, so what would you do to make my suspension better? :blink:

[ducatilover]

Ok, so what would you do to make my suspension better? :blink:

Let the list begin..... :shutup:

[nzspokes]

Let the list begin..... :shutup:

I know what I can do. :shit:

Interested in what he thinks he can do.

[ducatilover]

I know what I can do. :shit:

Interested in what he thinks he can do.

He is Robert Taylor, if anyone can do it, he can.

The Chuck Norris of the suspension world :sunny:

[nzspokes]

He is Robert Taylor, if anyone can do it, he can.

The Chuck Norris of the suspension world :sunny:

Lets see what he can come up with.....

[FROSTY]

Nz spokes. In the case of your "profile" bike lowering the whole bike is going to be an issue.
Unlike rob I won't go into why you should or shouldn't do anything just pure logistics.
WITH YOUR BIKE.
shoving the forks up through the triple clamps say 20mm really isn't a big job.
Put the bike on the main stand. Put a car jack under the front of the motor and undoo the four bolts holding the legs in place. You WILL find you are limited in how far the forks can slide by your handlebars. The fork caps will hit the underside of them.
So mechanically thats fairly easy.
Now the back end. You have dual shocks that are as old as the bike most likely.They are mounted solidly at the top and bottom. No opertunity for "lowering links" etc
SOO how do you lower it. 1) find a set of shocks from a similarish model that are shorter 2) reposition one shock mount so the existing shocks are les vertical -In essence making em shorter.
SOOO--The back end is going to cost a fair bit of money to sort out.
Given that your stated intention is to IMPROVE the bikes handling I must say this would be a total waste of money. I promise you the end result will NOT improve the actual handling. There may be a sensation of better steering because the front wheel is now "tucked" by around 15 mm.
IF you want better handling then my suggestions are as follows.
1) dump the fork oil and even give the unsides a flush out. Have the CORRECT amount of oil of the correct viscosity put in the forks.
2) Get a set of GOOD quality tyres fitted -On a bike of this size good rubber will last forever so its worth spending the loot.
3)Take the swingarm out and ensure all the bushes are lubed and there is NO lateral slop
4)IF the seals on your rear shocks aren't gone and all the oils blown out then see if someone like RT can reoil them for you.-Normally I'd say replace em with weight apropriate shocks but with this vintageand size you are really limited to budget replacement shocks.

Now if the issue in fact is simply that the bike is too tall then I would NOT be touching the suspenders to lower the bike.
I would buy a seat from the local wrecker and then shave the foam down 25mm. You'll buy a seat base for about $60.

Incidently to qualify my comments. YES I have worked on CB250 RS and CBX250's for slightly shorter folk with good effect. But always the seat is the first port of call.

[Robert Taylor]

Nz spokes. In the case of your "profile" bike lowering the whole bike is going to be an issue.
Unlike rob I won't go into why you should or shouldn't do anything just pure logistics.
WITH YOUR BIKE.
shoving the forks up through the triple clamps say 20mm really isn't a big job.
Put the bike on the main stand. Put a car jack under the front of the motor and undoo the four bolts holding the legs in place. You WILL find you are limited in how far the forks can slide by your handlebars. The fork caps will hit the underside of them.
So mechanically thats fairly easy.
Now the back end. You have dual shocks that are as old as the bike most likely.They are mounted solidly at the top and bottom. No opertunity for "lowering links" etc
SOO how do you lower it. 1) find a set of shocks from a similarish model that are shorter 2) reposition one shock mount so the existing shocks are les vertical -In essence making em shorter.
SOOO--The back end is going to cost a fair bit of money to sort out.
Given that your stated intention is to IMPROVE the bikes handling I must say this would be a total waste of money. I promise you the end result will NOT improve the actual handling. There may be a sensation of better steering because the front wheel is now "tucked" by around 15 mm.
IF you want better handling then my suggestions are as follows.
1) dump the fork oil and even give the unsides a flush out. Have the CORRECT amount of oil of the correct viscosity put in the forks.
2) Get a set of GOOD quality tyres fitted -On a bike of this size good rubber will last forever so its worth spending the loot.
3)Take the swingarm out and ensure all the bushes are lubed and there is NO lateral slop
4)IF the seals on your rear shocks aren't gone and all the oils blown out then see if someone like RT can reoil them for you.-Normally I'd say replace em with weight apropriate shocks but with this vintageand size you are really limited to budget replacement shocks.

Now if the issue in fact is simply that the bike is too tall then I would NOT be touching the suspenders to lower the bike.
I would buy a seat from the local wrecker and then shave the foam down 25mm. You'll buy a seat base for about $60.

Incidently to qualify my comments. YES I have worked on CB250 RS and CBX250's for slightly shorter folk with good effect. But always the seat is the first port of call.

Well done Frosty ( if indeed it is the profile bike ) Saved me a lot of typing.

[nzspokes]

Nz spokes. In the case of your "profile" bike lowering the whole bike is going to be an issue.
Unlike rob I won't go into why you should or shouldn't do anything just pure logistics.
WITH YOUR BIKE.
shoving the forks up through the triple clamps say 20mm really isn't a big job.
Put the bike on the main stand. Put a car jack under the front of the motor and undoo the four bolts holding the legs in place. You WILL find you are limited in how far the forks can slide by your handlebars. The fork caps will hit the underside of them.
So mechanically thats fairly easy.
Now the back end. You have dual shocks that are as old as the bike most likely.They are mounted solidly at the top and bottom. No opertunity for "lowering links" etc
SOO how do you lower it. 1) find a set of shocks from a similarish model that are shorter 2) reposition one shock mount so the existing shocks are les vertical -In essence making em shorter.
SOOO--The back end is going to cost a fair bit of money to sort out.
Given that your stated intention is to IMPROVE the bikes handling I must say this would be a total waste of money. I promise you the end result will NOT improve the actual handling. There may be a sensation of better steering because the front wheel is now "tucked" by around 15 mm.
IF you want better handling then my suggestions are as follows.
1) dump the fork oil and even give the unsides a flush out. Have the CORRECT amount of oil of the correct viscosity put in the forks.
2) Get a set of GOOD quality tyres fitted -On a bike of this size good rubber will last forever so its worth spending the loot.
3)Take the swingarm out and ensure all the bushes are lubed and there is NO lateral slop
4)IF the seals on your rear shocks aren't gone and all the oils blown out then see if someone like RT can reoil them for you.-Normally I'd say replace em with weight apropriate shocks but with this vintageand size you are really limited to budget replacement shocks.

Now if the issue in fact is simply that the bike is too tall then I would NOT be touching the suspenders to lower the bike.
I would buy a seat from the local wrecker and then shave the foam down 25mm. You'll buy a seat base for about $60.

Incidently to qualify my comments. YES I have worked on CB250 RS and CBX250's for slightly shorter folk with good effect. But always the seat is the first port of call.

Cheers. But the reason for the original question was that one of my shocks is leaking a bit. replacements seem to all be 20mm shorter. Robert has already told me that my shocks cant be fixed. That I dont believe as they do come apart. I will be having a go at that as Ive done a lot of work on suspension systems before, just not on motorcycles.

Ive since found length adjustable ones on e-bay and found somebody with the same bike wrecking it. So a few options there.

I will be rebuilding the forks, possibly this weekend. I suspect they are orifice dampers so they will be basic. They also have a harsh top out which I will look into. Maybe a shim stack conversion coming? :shit: LOL.

Probably hit it with a wheel alignment after that. I may even organise getting some new coil wound for the rear as well, easier than a diet. :facepalm:

Or I could just wait untill I have my full and start on another bike.

[FROSTY]

NZ spokes--okley dokely so "in Theory" any replacement rear shocks are 20mm shorter than whats currently fitted. I'm hearing ya. But what is the current actual useable length of your shocks?
Given you arent overstating your weight its entirely possible that a pair of propperly damped shocks with a more appropriate spring setup for your weight will actually EFFECTIVELY be as long or even longer than the factory shocks.Yes 20 mm is a lot for a road bike but if the factory stuff has 60mm or more sag with you sitting on the bike then any percieved advantage has gone.
When RT and co are setting up his very expensive rears on racebikes one spring certainly doesn't fit every rider and of course the damping gets changed to suit the spring etc (before getting into personal preferences) so within the limitations you have in shock selection you may find a better spring/damping setup that starts out a few MM short

[Robert Taylor]

Cheers. But the reason for the original question was that one of my shocks is leaking a bit. replacements seem to all be 20mm shorter. Robert has already told me that my shocks cant be fixed. That I dont believe as they do come apart. I will be having a go at that as Ive done a lot of work on suspension systems before, just not on motorcycles.

Ive since found length adjustable ones on e-bay and found somebody with the same bike wrecking it. So a few options there.

I will be rebuilding the forks, possibly this weekend. I suspect they are orifice dampers so they will be basic. They also have a harsh top out which I will look into. Maybe a shim stack conversion coming? :shit: LOL.

Probably hit it with a wheel alignment after that. I may even organise getting some new coil wound for the rear as well, easier than a diet. :facepalm:

Or I could just wait untill I have my full and start on another bike.

If there is one thing that irks me it is being misquoted. I get so much e-mail traffic that dredging for copies of correspondence can be time consuming and irksome. I would like you to either remind me of the e-mail address that I replied to you on or publish my full reply here on this thread. I believe I havent been quoted quite correctly

[nzspokes]

If there is one thing that irks me it is being misquoted. I get so much e-mail traffic that dredging for copies of correspondence can be time consuming and irksome. I would like you to either remind me of the e-mail address that I replied to you on or publish my full reply here on this thread. I believe I havent been quoted quite correctly

My apologies if I have misquoted you, I asked via Shaun if It could be done. the response was no it couldnt.

[nzspokes]

NZ spokes--okley dokely so "in Theory" any replacement rear shocks are 20mm shorter than whats currently fitted. I'm hearing ya. But what is the current actual useable length of your shocks?
Given you arent overstating your weight its entirely possible that a pair of propperly damped shocks with a more appropriate spring setup for your weight will actually EFFECTIVELY be as long or even longer than the factory shocks.Yes 20 mm is a lot for a road bike but if the factory stuff has 60mm or more sag with you sitting on the bike then any percieved advantage has gone.
When RT and co are setting up his very expensive rears on racebikes one spring certainly doesn't fit every rider and of course the damping gets changed to suit the spring etc (before getting into personal preferences) so within the limitations you have in shock selection you may find a better spring/damping setup that starts out a few MM short

Agreed and that was part of my thought process also. My sag on the rears is 50%:facepalm:. So a shock that is working correctly with new fluid would be better than one with 25 year old oil in it.

[Gremlin]

I had my factory WP suspension serviced a little over a year into it's life (admittedly past it's service interval of 30k) at 40,000km on my KTM.

Apparently the rear shock oil was sludge and one fork wouldn't move properly. I can't believe people don't just throw suspension into the servicing... some seem to leave it for years and years :blink:

[FROSTY]

Agreed and that was part of my thought process also. My sag on the rears is 50%:facepalm:. So a shock that is working correctly with new fluid would be better than one with 25 year old oil in it.
Dude It occurrs to me that the rear shocks from the GB400/500 range would most likely be a good option. OR maybee you could look to a greybeards (classic) mx bike.
Why I'm thinking the MX bike is that theres a bit of money in that area meaning after market quality suspenders may be available.
RT etc know this stuff a truck load better than I do but I'm thinking that yea the MX shocks will be longer but the initial spring rate is VERY soft so the range the shock will be working in with you riding the bike may be perfect for you.
(happy to be proven wrong on that front)

[nzspokes]

Dude It occurrs to me that the rear shocks from the GB400/500 range would most likely be a good option. OR maybee you could look to a greybeards (classic) mx bike.
Why I'm thinking the MX bike is that theres a bit of money in that area meaning after market quality suspenders may be available.
RT etc know this stuff a truck load better than I do but I'm thinking that yea the MX shocks will be longer but the initial spring rate is VERY soft so the range the shock will be working in with you riding the bike may be perfect for you.
(happy to be proven wrong on that front)

VMX ones seem to be 390mm +. But i can get new 315mm ones for $130. Bike spec is 340.

But this weekend will be fork rebuild, maybe flat bars, oil catch bottle, inline fuel filter. Talking to a guy with a bike the same as mine to get the same shocks again, if price is right I will get them and try to rebuild mine. probably will need to make/adapt seals.

need to head out at lunch time to get AFT for the fork. Seems odd to use ATF but thats what the manual says.

[ducatilover]

Have you looked at Hagon shocks? I had some on the CB400 SF and they were really nice, leaps and bounds ahead of the original ones.

I'll probably get a Hagon for my ZZR too.

[nzspokes]

Had a thought today while riding. I could just restrict the travel of the fork by 20mm to match the rear shock. Hmmmmmm

[ducatilover]

What could possibly go wrong?

Why don't you just chop the seat? Cheap and easy.