What the hell?

[Sable]

Look at this http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/sports/auction-401752880.htm

He's taken a high k's GB400 commuter, put on pipe wrap, a crappy mismatched tracker seat, shitty paint, open exhaust and ditched the airbox for a pod. With a CV carb.
Guess how much he wants for it. WTF :angry2:

[nzspokes]

Look at this http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/sports/auction-401752880.htm

He's taken a high k's GB400 commuter, put on pipe wrap, a crappy mismatched tracker seat, shitty paint, open exhaust and ditched the airbox for a pod. With a CV carb.
Guess how much he wants for it. WTF :angry2:

Was at shed 5 today, lots of bikes there with pipe wrap. Whats that about?

[jasonu]

Look at this http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/sports/auction-401752880.htm

He's taken a high k's GB400 commuter, put on pipe wrap, a crappy mismatched tracker seat, shitty paint, open exhaust and ditched the airbox for a pod. With a CV carb.
Guess how much he wants for it. WTF :angry2:

Yep sounds like a lot of dough and it doesn't look real comfy but who cares???

[steve_t]

LOL. It just takes one person with money. If there's more than one, even better for the seller

[Sable]

Yep sounds like a lot of dough and it doesn't look real comfy but who cares???
What it does look is real retarded. The guy apparently builds custom motorcycles for a living. You'd think he'd know better. @NZSpokes pipewrap is supposed to keep heat within the pipe when passing close to other components but monkeys use it for that 'race' look. It also rusts your pipes out.

[Gremlin]

One man's trash...

[Crasherfromwayback]

What it does look is real retarded. The guy apparently builds custom motorcycles for a living. You'd think he'd know better. @NZSpokes pipewrap is supposed to keep heat within the pipe when passing close to other components but monkeys use it for that 'race' look. It also rusts your pipes out.

You're the retard. It has nothing to do whatsoever for keeping heat away from other components. It's designed (and works a fucking treat) to super heat the exhaust gases and improve scavenging. For a guy that thinks he's pretty on to it, and sarcasically calls others 'Einstein'...I'd have thought you'd know better.

[Sable]

So that's the one thing you have to pick on and you're saying it has no effect. No comment on the bike? Do you like it?

[Crasherfromwayback]

and you're saying it has no effect.

You obviously can't read either.

[nzspokes]

You're the retard. It has nothing to do whatsoever for keeping heat away from other components. It's designed (and works a fucking treat) to super heat the exhaust gases and improve scavenging. For a guy that thinks he's pretty on to it, and sarcasically calls others 'Einstein'...I'd have thought you'd know better.

Seemed like a good idea to me as im sporting a big fuck off burn from exhaust headers. But if it makes the bike go better to I can say I did it for that. :woohoo:

Not because Im a dumbarse.

[Sable]

To clarify, no effect on heat retention thus keeping it away from external components AS WELL AS 'massive scavenging improvements', which has not been the aim 90% of the time I have seen it applied. Make sense now? Retard right back at ya cuz.

[bogan]

Seemed like a good idea to me as im sporting a big fuck off burn from exhaust headers. But if it makes the bike go better to I can say I did it for that. :woohoo:

Not because Im a dumbarse.

Not sure if you will see much gain unless you have a exhaust system designed for it (hotter = higher gas velocity = different tuned lengths for same rpm), I only used wrap for the heat aspect, looks good too though :woohoo: But depending on who you talk to, you can say it gained you a few hp, those with rim stripes are probably most likely to nod in appreciation :yes:

[short-circuit]

Retard right back at ya cuz.

Is that the best you can do? I've heard better come backs from 5 year olds

[Sable]

You almost had me :bleh:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Not sure if you will see much gain unless you have a exhaust system designed for it (hotter = higher gas velocity = different tuned lengths for same rpm), I only used wrap for the heat aspect, looks good too though :woohoo: But depending on who you talk to, you can say it gained you a few hp, those with rim stripes are probably most likely to nod in appreciation :yes:

Not true sorry. It works pretty well on any exhaust system.

[bogan]

Not true sorry. It works pretty well on any exhaust system.

Does it move the peak torque slightly higher in the rev range if you use the same pipes though?

Also, does 'any' exhaust system include ones with overly restricted mufflers?

Reason I'm curious is I have only wrapped my midpipe atm, and haven't decided whether to wrap or rebuild my corroded headers.

[ducatilover]

You lot know nothing, the exhaust is made from garlic bread.

Retreads.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Does it move the peak torque slightly higher in the rev range if you use the same pipes though?

Also, does 'any' exhaust system include ones with overly restricted mufflers?

Reason I'm curious is I have only wrapped my midpipe atm, and haven't decided whether to wrap or rebuild my corroded headers.

You can actually move the torque curve up or down the rev range by how far you wrap the headers. Headers being the key word mate. It works ok on collectors etc...but best results according to our very expensive dyno show headers are where it's at for wrap.

The muffler question is a goodin though, and to be honest, I don't know the answer. Nothing we have tested on the dyno has had overly restricted mufflers. But I do think it'd still work better than no wrap at all.

[bogan]

You can actually move the torque curve up or down the rev range by how far you wrap the headers. Headers being the key word mate. It works ok on collectors etc...but best results according to our very expensive dyno show headers are where it's at for wrap.

The muffler question is a goodin though, and to be honest, I don't know the answer. Nothing we have tested on the dyno has had overly restricted mufflers. But I do think it'd still work better than no wrap at all.

yeh i guess the header pulses are the biggest thus best for scavenging. In your experience, would a 650 twin require re-jetting after a header wrap?

[Madness]

Get a room you two. This thread is all about Sable calling people retards in an attempt to make himself feel less retarded.

[Sable]

Hey, Crasher's the one calling people retards, not me. Get your facts in order

[Crasherfromwayback]

yeh i guess the header pulses are the biggest thus best for scavenging. In your experience, would a 650 twin require re-jetting after a header wrap?

Jet it correctly first.Don't think the wrap will have any effect on jetting.

[White trash]

Looks to me like he's done a shitload more work than pipe wrap, a crappy mismatched tracker seat, shitty paint, open exhaust and ditched the airbox for a pod.

Show us your custom bike so we can pass judgement?

Fuckwit.

[Sable]

Oh, I missed a couple of things. Rearsets and he's chopped the front fender. Woohoo. It's still a high mileage commuter bike with mismatched seat and garish paint for 5 grand. Are you two his mates or something?

Edit: Chopper style number plate mount painted springs on stock shocks and he's dropped the forks. Just covering my ass in case you think any of these details changes the sum of the whole, which is apparently a bike you like the look of and think is an improvement over original, both aesthetically and functionally and think is worth more than 1500 plus the price of some black rattlecans.

[bogan]

Oh, I missed a couple of things. Rearsets and he's chopped the front fender. Woohoo. It's still a high mileage commuter bike with mismatched seat and garish paint for 5 grand. Are you two his mates or something?

It might be the point they were trying to make, is that modified bikes are often not to everyones tastes, but as long as the owner is happy, who gives a shit right?


Jet it correctly first.Don't think the wrap will have any effect on jetting.

Yeh it's jetted good as, will probly go with stainless if i can find a tig to borrow, better looks. What sort of hp gains were you getting for wrapped stuff?

[Sable]

I can guess. Fuck all

[scumdog]

To clarify, no effect on heat retention thus keeping it away from external components AS WELL AS 'massive scavenging improvements', which has not been the aim 90% of the time I have seen it applied. Make sense now? Retard right back at ya cuz.


Most chuck that wrap on for 'the look', to them it 'looks cool' -functionality is the last thing on their mind...

To me the look is crap, straight away I wonder how many crappy welds and joints it's covering.

[riffer]

Looks more powdercoated than a rattle gun job to me checking out the youtube video.

Looks quite tasty to me. Sorry Sable.

<iframe width="560" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/2yIrk9ke4-4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Sable]

Sweet, an opinion instead of abuse. 1500 and rattlecans refers to fixing the colours. Does anyone think it's an improvement over stock though?

[ktm]

Most chuck that wrap on for 'the look', to them it 'looks cool' -functionality is the last thing on their mind...

To me the look is crap, straight away I wonder how many crappy welds and joints it's covering.

There's a first time for everything..... first time I agreed with Scumdog hahaha

[ktm]

Looks to me like he's done a shitload more work than pipe wrap, a crappy mismatched tracker seat, shitty paint, open exhaust and ditched the airbox for a pod.

Show us your custom bike so we can pass judgement?

Fuckwit.

Who are you calling a "Fuckwit" ? Name-calling is never nice. Start running.......

[Crasherfromwayback]

What sort of hp gains were you getting for wrapped stuff?

Only around 3-4 HP, but quite an impressive torque gain. We could also move the fat part of the torque up and down the rev range depending on how far we put the rap down the headers towards the collector.


I can guess. Fuck all

Every lil minute gain is important when you're racing Noddy. Especially in a class with strict rules. Not that I've ever seen you out there doing it though.


Most chuck that wrap on for 'the look', to them it 'looks cool' -functionality is the last thing on their mind...

To me the look is crap, straight away I wonder how many crappy welds and joints it's covering.

Yep...most people do add it for that 'look'.


Sweet, an opinion instead of abuse.

You generally get back what you put out. I still remember you calling me 'Einstein' for one on my 'opinions' a while back. So you can't read...don't know as much as you think you do, and have a shit memory.
You're a retard.

[ktm]

I still remember you calling me 'Einstein' for one on my 'opinions' a while back. So you can't read...don't know as much as you think you do, and have a shit memory.
You're a retard.

"Einstein" sounds much better than "retard", don't you think?

[Sable]

Sounds like someone's bitter over something so inconsequential no one but he remembers it :yes:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Sounds like someone's bitter over something so inconsequential no one but he remembers it :yes:

Bitter? Nah. I don't even know you, as you don't know me. I simply don't like people that talk shit.

[Sable]

I'm sorry :crybaby:. Would you like a cuddle?

[Crasherfromwayback]

I'm sorry :crybaby:. Would you like a cuddle?

Thanks all the same. But I'd rather sulk!

[ducatilover]

I like it after seeing that vid, I do prefer the factory single seat, but that tracker one is cool :yes:

Can we have pics of your awesome custom bike Sable?

[Sable]

VFR400 caliper and master, billet adaptor, braided line, drilled disc, braced swingarm, clipons, fibreglass seat, Boyesen reeds TS125ER pistons professional porting and squish setup skimmed separated head copper head gasket. :yes: Looks a bit funny but it wasn't built for looks, it was made out of junk and cost $400. :bleh:

[short-circuit]

VFR400 caliper and master, braided line, drilled disc, braced swingarm, clipons, fibreglass seat, Boyesen reeds TS125ER pistons professional porting and squish setup skimmed separated head copper head gasket. :yes: Looks a bit funny but it wasn't built for looks, it was made out of junk and cost $400. :bleh:

Why don't you wrap the headers? :laugh:

[Sable]

Hahahaha :laugh:. No.

[Shadows]

I reckon it's pretty damn cool.
I've always had a soft spot for the GB, I should never have sold the one I had 20 years ago. Nothing could keep up with me on that thing through the technical stuff - although at the time I was very young, very dumb, and, well, that's about it really. Not to mention less than 70kg.
Wouldn't want to pay $5k for it though.

[jonbuoy]

I always thought header wrap on motorbikes was used to cover up rusty chromed pipes? :dodge: In cars it can drop engine bay temperatures.

[ellipsis]

...love it, but I wouldnt pay that much for it and wouldnt lose sleep or comment on someone elses baby...have been known to give the Ducatisti shit for no other reason than the warped (not wrapped) misconceptions I have of Italianos...

[nzspokes]

Only around 3-4 HP, but quite an impressive torque gain. We could also move the fat part of the torque up and down the rev range depending on how far we put the rap down the headers towards the collector.


So ive got a single with 2 exhaust ports and 2 complete separate exhausts. So If I were to wrap how far do I go as I dont have a collector?

[sidecar bob]

I wrapped two perfect BMW headers on my R100rs Turbo, 12 months later I unwrapped them looking for a loss in performance & they were fucked. The nice U bend was a series of sharp kinks, one nearly blocking the pipe right off.
Obviously they had been permanently red hot & had grown so much the pipe had to go somwhere.
I wouldnt bother with wrap again, I will HPC the current ones sometime.

[Sable]

It's not worth it and it won't do shit. Maybe on a large displacement Harley garbage pump but not on a 250, and even then the difference is so marginal if the dyno didnt show it you probably wouldn't notice it.

[Crasherfromwayback]

So ive got a single with 2 exhaust ports and 2 complete separate exhausts. So If I were to wrap how far do I go as I dont have a collector?

I'd need our dyno to tell you the correct answer sorry mate!

[Crasherfromwayback]

It's not worth it and it won't do shit. Maybe on a large displacement Harley garbage pump but not on a 250, and even then the difference is so marginal if the dyno didnt show it you probably wouldn't notice it.

Wouldn't call an 883 a large displacement bike. By now...you really should be wearing a bib you're talking that much shit.

[bogan]

It's not worth it and it won't do shit. Maybe on a large displacement Harley garbage pump but not on a 250, and even then the difference is so marginal if the dyno didnt show it you probably wouldn't notice it.

Going to come down to a single cylinders displacement though isn't it? 250 single be similar to a 1000 IL4 but lower revving, sure with 4x the headers you'd get 4x the gain but the proportion increase should still be similar in theory right? And with twin headers on the one cylinder, the surface area is going to be even bigger, so provides more cooling.

[ducatilover]

It's not worth it and it won't do shit. Maybe on a large displacement Harley garbage pump but not on a 250, and even then the difference is so marginal if the dyno didnt show it you probably wouldn't notice it.

You'd probably find it'll do more in terms of percentage of power gain on a 250 than a garbage pump, the 250's will have thinner walled manifolds and 'zorsts, ergo they lose more heat through the walls of the exhaust = less gas velocity.

Or something.

[White trash]

VFR400 caliper and master, billet adaptor, braided line, drilled disc, braced swingarm, clipons, fibreglass seat, Boyesen reeds TS125ER pistons professional porting and squish setup skimmed separated head copper head gasket. :yes: Looks a bit funny but it wasn't built for looks, it was made out of junk and cost $400. :bleh:

Sweet. Show us the pictures?

As you well know, we all customise our bikes for different reasons and to gain different effect. Hating on a guys bike because it doesn't fit your idea of how it should be is a little one eyed is all.

And yeah, I think it's an improvement on the standard one.

[White trash]

Who are you calling a "Fuckwit" ? Name-calling is never nice. Start running.......

Have I ever claimed to be "nice"? And running from what?

[sidecar bob]

Sweet. Show us the pictures?

As you well know, we all customise our bikes for different reasons and to gain different effect. Hating on a guys bike because it doesn't fit your idea of how it should be is a little one eyed is all.

Yep, and anyone that thinks the GB is a dogs breakfast hasnt looked at ther rest of the guys listings.

[nzspokes]

I'd need our dyno to tell you the correct answer sorry mate!

Wonder If I wrap them to different places I will get mora torques and BHP? :woohoo:

[Sable]

Sweet. Show us the pictures?

As you well know, we all customise our bikes for different reasons and to gain different effect. Hating on a guys bike because it doesn't fit your idea of how it should be is a little one eyed is all.

And yeah, I think it's an improvement on the standard one.


Yep, and anyone that thinks the GB is a dogs breakfast hasnt looked at ther rest of the guys listings.

They're on my profile. I actually thought his 'bobbers' were alright.

[muppitt]

Thats strange my current sportster has done 120 ks and the old 87 883 had 140 on the clock .

[White trash]

They're on my profile. I actually thought his 'bobbers' were alright.

Fuck yeah. The Shovel Hardtail is awesome.

[ducatilover]

Wonder If I wrap them to different places I will get mora torques and BHP? :woohoo:

Depends on the colour of the wrap of course :innocent:

[nzspokes]

Depends on the colour of the wrap of course :innocent:

Its ok, im not going to use rim tape. I couldnt handle that much power.

[ducatilover]

Its ok, im not going to use rim tape. I couldnt handle that much power.

Very wise of you, rim tape is dangerous.

[Sable]

Take off your muffler and airbox, you'll easily double your horsepower.

[nzspokes]

Take off your muffler and airbox, you'll easily double your horsepower.

Now your just being silly.

My new jets and pods are not here yet.

[huff3r]

I always thought header wrap on motorbikes was used to cover up rusty chromed pipes? :dodge: In cars it can drop engine bay temperatures.

But thats not why they do it. Look up "thermal efficiency" and you'll soon realise a hot engine bay is better (as long as the engine internals are kept cool enough to still function properly, i.e not seize, but thats what a radiator is for!). The reason race-cars use it is again to accelerate the exhaust gas flow, by super-heating it increasing scavenging performance, and in a turbo car reducing lag and improving boost characteristics.

But again, like most bikers, most boy-racers only do it for show as well. Muppets.

[sidecar bob]

Face it, header wrap is total & utter monkey spankage & appeals to the same sort of people that attatch neons to their Harleys & have tassles.
I dont count with that bunch though. I only wrapped my headers because my bike is turbo'd.

[bogan]

So it's been established it keeps hot things hot if you want, and cool things cool if you want, it also can be used to make things look good, and it increases power. All that is left to do now is....

[blackdog]

10 chars....

[scumdog]

Face it, header wrap is total & utter monkey spankage & appeals to the same sort of people that attatch neons to their Harleys & have tassles.
I dont count with that bunch though. I only wrapped my headers because my bike is turbo'd.

I've got tassles on my Harley

And zorst-wrap on the turbo-intake on my 'zuki.

What's your point??:blink:

[jonbuoy]

But thats not why they do it. Look up "thermal efficiency" and you'll soon realise a hot engine bay is better (as long as the engine internals are kept cool enough to still function properly, i.e not seize, but thats what a radiator is for!). The reason race-cars use it is again to accelerate the exhaust gas flow, by super-heating it increasing scavenging performance, and in a turbo car reducing lag and improving boost characteristics.

But again, like most bikers, most boy-racers only do it for show as well. Muppets.

People that are fitting V8´s into little engine bays would disagree that its not just for keeping the engine bay cooler and protecting things like starter motors that are placed too close for comfort to exhaust pipes. If the temperatures are so high in the engine bay its starting to seriously effect the intake charge temperatures how is that good for engine efficiency? Maybe a warm air charge is better for fuel economy but not for performance. Look up header wrap reduces intake charge temps and you´ll realise a cooler engine bay is better for performance.

[huff3r]

People that are fitting V8´s into little engine bays would disagree that its not just for keeping the engine bay cooler and protecting things like starter motors that are placed too close for comfort to exhaust pipes. If the temperatures are so high in the engine bay its starting to seriously effect the intake charge temperatures how is that good for engine efficiency? Maybe a warm air charge is better for fuel economy but not for performance. Look up header wrap reduces intake charge temps and you´ll realise a cooler engine bay is better for performance.

Thats what efficient cold air intake systems are for. As for people fitting big V8s into small engine bays, well I guess you have to make some sacrifices when you try and force something where it don't belong!

[jonbuoy]

Thats what efficient cold air intake systems are for. As for people fitting big V8s into small engine bays, well I guess you have to make some sacrifices when you try and force something where it don't belong!

How cold is that air going to be after its passed through a roasting hot engine bay?? Your still of the opinion that a hotter engine bay is better than a cool one?

[avgas]

Looks ok to me.
But its worth $2,000. I should know I have owned 4 of the bloody things.
Exhaust wrap on one is dumb. I did it and the fucking thing overheated. Turns out honda had a clue when it came to cooling it.
i.e. get rid of hot air via exhaust asap.
Last one I sold had both single and cafe seat. Went for $800.
Best one I had (would have) sold for $3500.......but tried to kill me on way to customer. That was 2004. So this is worth between $1500-$2300.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I did it and the fucking thing overheated. Turns out honda had a clue when it came to cooling it.
i.e. get rid of hot air via exhaust asap.
.

That's how it works. By super heating the exhaust gases, it's expands and rushes out the exit quicker, hence better scavenging etc. Were you running the std exhaust? Maybe it was like it had a cork up it's ass hence the over heating?

[steve_t]

That's how it works. By super heating the exhaust gases, it's expands and rushes out the exit quicker, hence better scavenging etc. Were you running the std exhaust? Maybe it was like it had a cork up it's ass hence the over heating?

I'm pretty sure the wrap doesn't 'superheat' the exhaust gases but just keeps them hot so they maintain velocity :sunny:

[bogan]

That's how it works. By super heating the exhaust gases, it's expands and rushes out the exit quicker, hence better scavenging etc. Were you running the std exhaust? Maybe it was like it had a cork up it's ass hence the over heating?

From what I read on bikes without collectors it's the wave scavenging that makes up for pretty much of it, and iirc you get a much better reflection if the wave doesn't go through a temperature differential before the end of the pipe. Low pressure wave is reflected back and timed to the closing of the exhaust valve (and opening of intake) to draw that little bit extra through :D

[avgas]

That's how it works. By super heating the exhaust gases, it's expands and rushes out the exit quicker, hence better scavenging etc. Were you running the std exhaust? Maybe it was like it had a cork up it's ass hence the over heating?
Nah found that with the wrap all heat was contained in the front near where the headers exited. There is f-all air flow through there so it really needed shiny chrome pipes so that the air passes through there quick and around the block.
Problem was not the exhaust gasses themselves, but more the contained heat in the block and oil. You never have this issue with water-cooled motors, which is why wrapping them probably isn't such a bad idea. But on air-cooled motors its best to leave it to the aerodynamic guys that have a clue.

Also wouldn't you want more back-pressure to increase scavenging? Less back pressure from the exhaust would mean that all your precious scavenged go juice would shoot out asap. Like that time you farted when your boyfriend had blown his load.

[Crasherfromwayback]

. Like that time you farted when your boyfriend had blown his load.

Nah. I made him use a connie. No bare back for me!!!

[steve_t]

Also wouldn't you want more back-pressure to increase scavenging? Less back pressure from the exhaust would mean that all your precious scavenged go juice would shoot out asap. Like that time you farted when your boyfriend had blown his load.

The whole back pressure thing is a misconception. Scavenging is achieved with gas flow velocity. When the ID of the headers is too large, the flow velocity slows and performance drops. Smaller headers can increase flow velocity an enhance scavenging, however too small and you will have a problem with increased back pressure. So, back pressure is NOT desirable. You probably already know this but I thought I'd make sure others aren't getting confused :sunny:

[bogan]

The whole back pressure thing is a misconception. Scavenging is achieved with gas flow velocity. When the ID of the headers is too large, the flow velocity slows and performance drops. Smaller headers can increase flow velocity an enhance scavenging, however too small and you will have a problem with increased back pressure. So, back pressure is NOT desirable. You probably already know this but I thought I'd make sure others aren't getting confused :sunny:

Here (http://www.bigcitythunder.com/pages/understanding_exhaust.pdf) is a good article which explains wave scavenging as well. Technical stuff on scavenging starts about pg4, but the rest is good background too.

[huff3r]

How cold is that air going to be after its passed through a roasting hot engine bay?? Your still of the opinion that a hotter engine bay is better than a cool one?

Yes. Otherwise a good proportion of the energy from combustion is being used to keep the engine warm. Hence why engines have "running temperatures" and water-cooled engines have "thermostats" to prevent "super-cooling".

As long as the efficiency of the cooling system is maintained, then yes a hot engine bay is very very good.

[bogan]

As long as the efficiency of the cooling system is maintained, then yes a hot engine bay is very very good.

You got it backwards, as long as the cooling system is keeping the cylinders hot enough for good efficiency, it doesn't matter what the engine bay temperature is. All a hot engine bay will do is heat the intake charge and cause detonation.

[nzspokes]

Original tm ad says it added 25kph to top speed.

im gunna do it on Sat.

[Sable]

Don't be stupid. The header wrap wouldn't have done shit. It would have been a combination of straight pipe/pod/weight loss/a tune up and or gearing. IF he's telling the truth. None of these things being worth doing on a CBX250.

[nzspokes]

Don't be stupid. The header wrap wouldn't have done shit. It would have been a combination of straight pipe/pod/weight loss/a tune up and or gearing. IF he's telling the truth. None of these things being worth doing on a CBX250.

Bollocks. There is speed to be had.

[ktm]

Bollocks. There is speed to be had.

You're absolutely right, there is speed to be had. Stick with downhill slopes and tail winds and your bike WILL go faster, gearing permitting.

[Sable]

You're absolutely right, there is speed to be had. Stick with downhill slopes and tail winds and your bike WILL go faster, gearing permitting.
Fit a spinnaker

[nzspokes]

Fit a spinnaker

Your gunna look real silly if my top speed improves. :yes:

[sidecar bob]

You got it backwards, as long as the cooling system is keeping the cylinders hot enough for good efficiency, it doesn't matter what the engine bay temperature is. All a hot engine bay will do is heat the intake charge and cause detonation.

Thats a brand new concept, so the cooling system keeps the cylnders hot?? & what keeps the cooling system hot?

[steve_t]

Thats a brand new concept, so the cooling system keeps the cylnders hot?? & what keeps the cooling system hot?

For turbo'd vehicles, it's called an interheater. NA vehicles have an irradiator :innocent:

Of course he means "so long as the cooling system allows the cylinders to remain at an efficient temperature..."

[jonbuoy]

Yes. Otherwise a good proportion of the energy from combustion is being used to keep the engine warm. Hence why engines have "running temperatures" and water-cooled engines have "thermostats" to prevent "super-cooling".

As long as the efficiency of the cooling system is maintained, then yes a hot engine bay is very very good.

:blink: Where are you getting this from?? Are we talking about diesels in Arctic temperatures, a petrol engined aircraft engine at high altitude or high performance/tuned petrol engined bike/car in normal ambient temperaturesl?? Not normally a problem to keep an engine hot enough for combustion. A "hot" engine bay is never a very very good thing for high performance.

[The Pastor]

Look at this http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/sports/auction-401752880.htm

He's taken a high k's GB400 commuter, put on pipe wrap, a crappy mismatched tracker seat, shitty paint, open exhaust and ditched the airbox for a pod. With a CV carb.
Guess how much he wants for it. WTF :angry2:

You're going to have a heart attack when you see my custom,

no airbox / filter at all, and lots and lots of that wrap.

The price, imo is reasonable. I doubt the parts + bike value would addup to 6k, then factor in his time....

Where is your custom bike?

[scumdog]

then factor in his time....

Time is never added to the cost if it's your own....

[The Pastor]

Time is never added to the cost if it's your own....

clocks tell time

you buy clocks with money

therefore, time is money

[sidecar bob]

So everybody missed the simple fact that fuel is converted into motion & heat & the more heat you can store the less fuel is wasted being converted into heat & is either saved or converted into motion.
Why does a car run shit when it is cold unless the mixture is richened & where does that extra fuel go?
It is consumed in the process of warming up the engine & cooling system & once the engine is warm the mixture can be leaned out.
There is only one thing that warms the engine up, & that is fuel.

[steve_t]

So everybody missed the simple fact that fuel is converted into motion & heat & the more heat you can store the less fuel is wasted being converted into heat & is either saved or converted into motion.
Why does a car run shit when it is cold unless the mixture is richened & where does that extra fuel go?
It is consumed in the process of warming up the engine & cooling system & once the engine is warm the mixture can be leaned out.
There is only one thing that warms the engine up, & that is fuel.

What does the calorific value of fuel have to do with header wrap?

The engine doesn't function efficiently until at operating temperature because 1. the parts haven't expanded to their operating size, thus allowing blowby and loss of compression and energy, and 2. the oil is very viscous when cold so the moving parts have more friction to overcome, 3. fuel is most efficiently combusted when it is in vapour form. Fuel vapourises in a warm cylinder but remains in droplet form in a cold one.

OK, how's this? Why do performance cars have Cold Air Intakes or Water Injection systems?

[jonbuoy]

Engines will make more power if you can squeeze more fuel and air into the combustion chamber, a cooler fuel and air mix takes up less room than a hotter "expanded" mix. I´ve always found once warmed up bikes/cars feel a bit pokier on cool mornings. Put in your own figures into the calculator:

http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_hp_dp.htm

[sidecar bob]

What does the calorific value of fuel have to do with header wrap?

The engine doesn't function efficiently until at operating temperature because 1. the parts haven't expanded to their operating size, thus allowing blowby and loss of compression and energy, and 2. the oil is very viscous when cold so the moving parts have more friction to overcome, 3. fuel is most efficiently combusted when it is in vapour form. Fuel vapourises in a warm cylinder but remains in droplet form in a cold one.

OK, how's this? Why do performance cars have Cold Air Intakes or Water Injection systems?
My post absolutely missed you completely didnt it.
Im not raving out my arse about someting I think MIGHT be the case. Im just reciting basic physics.
We could go on all day about it. Cold air is a whole other topic & in no way related to why an engine runs mor efficently when hot.

[jonbuoy]

Expanding (useful heat) gasses push the piston down, the piston won´t be pushed down harder because the piston or combustion chamber is any hotter. The heat won´t accumulate and make each stroke more powerful. The only thing that will push the piston down harder is more expanding gasses (useful heat). The useless heat passed onto the block head and pistons is wasted.

As long as the engine is warm enough to let the tolerances open up, oil to flow, water vapour burn off and fuel atomise correctly that's warm enough. Thats part of the reason Alloy Cylinder heads came about when Cast Iron blocks were still being used, Cast Iron heads don´t dissipate the heat so well.

[imdying]

Why does a car run shit when it is cold unless the mixture is richened & where does that extra fuel go?Because the fuel can't atomize correctly so a percentage doesn't make it as far as the combustion chamber, the increased amount is the amount required to compensate for that effect; any excess either puddles in the inlet tracts or goes out the exhaust.


There is only one thing that warms the engine up, & that is fuel.No, that would be combustion.


BTW, an engine does not "run more efficiently when hot", it runs most efficiently at the temperature that it was designed to run most efficiently at. Fancy that.

[bogan]

We could go on all day about it. Cold air is a whole other topic & in no way related to why an engine runs mor efficently when hot.

It's a little bit related, power output is proportional to the temperature differential (and thus pressure change) between what comes in the intake valve, and what goes out the exhaust. If you keep the cylinders hot, you get hotter air out, and a bigger differential, if you keep the intake charge cold, you get a bigger differential too!

[jonbuoy]

http://www.importtuner.com/tech/impp_1107_cooler_engines_make_more_power/viewall.html

[steve_t]

My post absolutely missed you completely didnt it.


Looks like I wasn't the only one. Please clarify :drinkup:

[huff3r]

http://www.importtuner.com/tech/impp_1107_cooler_engines_make_more_power/viewall.html

http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/thermal_efficiency.htm

Like I said before, look up thermal efficiency. If you read through the article and actually understand the physics involved you will see that there is a significant loss of calorific energy to the engines cooling system. If you did not need to cool an engine (i.e there were no expansion of metals or melting to worry about) then the engine would run most efficiently with no cooling whatso-ever, particularly if it were well insulated to keep all of the extra heat from combustion in. Theres only one place for the heat to go if that were to happen, and that is into another form of energy, likely to be more useful.

Yes I realise the website is based on aero engines, but it is the same concept for every engine. Unfortunately engines can only be run up to a certain temperature before things go wrong, and thats where the cooling system comes into play. If the engine bay is warm, and the cooling is efficient, then a good balance is easier to maintain. A lot of performance engines are therefore run at a higher temperature than the average, an example being BMW engines which run at close to 90degrees, where a Ford Telstar runs at just under 70degrees.

[nzspokes]

Wrap and flash clamps have been bought. A whole $17. Im looking forward to the extra 25kph. :woohoo:

[bogan]

Wrap and flash clamps have been bought. A whole $17. Im looking forward to the extra 25kph. :woohoo:

What wrap did you get for that cheap? Or did you just flog some pink batts out of the roof?

[nzspokes]

What wrap did you get for that cheap? Or did you just flog some pink batts out of the roof?

Got it from STA parts with stainless clips. Google there webbie. Got 1" x 50 foot which will be way to much.

Will have to find other things to wrap. :shit:

[bogan]

Got it from STA parts with stainless clips. Google there webbie. Got 1" x 50 foot which will be way to much.

Will have to find other things to wrap. :shit:

I think you'll need to wet wrap that, and use a silicon spray sealer to keep it from turning to shit.

[imdying]

Make the effort to wrap it really really tight. Overlap it by half its width. Really tight.

[sidecar bob]

Looks like I wasn't the only one. Please clarify :drinkup:

Which only serves to prove that youre not the only dopey shit that read it.

[nzspokes]

Make the effort to wrap it really really tight. Overlap it by half its width. Really tight.

That was my thoughts to. And not expecting it to last. If I get more powa i will do a flash job.

[imdying]

It never lasts that long on a regularly driven street vehicle, hard to predict how long.... what we can however predict is how arse it'll look if it's not tight. Go slow, pull it as tight as you can :yes:

[steve_t]

Which only serves to prove that youre not the only dopey shit that read it.

Are you gonna elaborate on what you you were trying to say? Obviously, there are many of us that are too dopey to understand what your point was, or maybe on the other hand, you were unclear :shit:

[sidecar bob]

Are you gonna elaborate on what you you were trying to say? Obviously, there are many of us that are too dopey to understand what your point was, or maybe on the other hand, you were unclear :shit:
Does your hot water cylinder in your house heat up magically without using any energy, or is it only the cooling system of your car that does that? Do you actually think that ten litres of water can heat up to 90 degrees without burning any more fuel, or is the choke there just to offset the fact that fuel apparently sticks to the inside of a cold engine?
This has nothing to do with why engines prefer cold air. Cold air is more dense & contains more oxygen & thats where most of the power gain comes from in using a cold air intake.

[huff3r]

Does your hot water cylinder in your house heat up magically without using any energy, or is it only the cooling system of your car that does that? Do you actually think that ten litres of water can heat up to 90 degrees without burning any more fuel, or is the choke there just to offset the fact that fuel apparently sticks to the inside of a cold engine?
This has nothing to do with why engines prefer cold air. Cold air is more dense & contains more oxygen & thats where most of the power gain comes from in using a cold air intake.

Thermodynamics is a mystery to the commonfolk of KB... :shutup:

[imdying]

Does your hot water cylinder in your house heat up magically without using any energyNo, but neither does it generate waste heat as a by product of combustion.

[bogan]

Does your hot water cylinder in your house heat up magically without using any energy, or is it only the cooling system of your car that does that? Do you actually think that ten litres of water can heat up to 90 degrees without burning any more fuel, or is the choke there just to offset the fact that fuel apparently sticks to the inside of a cold engine?
This has nothing to do with why engines prefer cold air. Cold air is more dense & contains more oxygen & thats where most of the power gain comes from in using a cold air intake.

The choke (far more commonly a fuel enricher) is there to ensure the ratio is still stoichiometric, as when you start up the intake charge is a lot colder and denser, requiring more fuel. You run at a lower efficiency while warming up becuase the exhaust gases are colder also (due to more combustion energy passing into the cylinders and cooling system), so the temperature differential (thus efficiency) is lower than a fully warmed up engine.

Cold air intake in the power sense is much as you described, but for an efficient cruise, the butterflys are limiting the amount of air coming in anyway, so the density is not very relevant, however the temperature of it is.

[Crasherfromwayback]

And I can assure you header wrap works!

[steve_t]

Does your hot water cylinder in your house heat up magically without using any energy, or is it only the cooling system of your car that does that? Do you actually think that ten litres of water can heat up to 90 degrees without burning any more fuel, or is the choke there just to offset the fact that fuel apparently sticks to the inside of a cold engine?
This has nothing to do with why engines prefer cold air. Cold air is more dense & contains more oxygen & thats where most of the power gain comes from in using a cold air intake.

I think you're on a totally different wavelength to the rest of us here. I don't think anyone had said that the engine heats itself without using an energy source. Quite to the contrary, IIRC the energy from petrol is converted to only about 10% motive force and 90% is wasted as heat.

[steve_t]

And I can assure you header wrap works!

Does header wrap work better than a ceramic coating? I know the coating is quite a bit more expensive.

Have you seen any wrapped headers severely corroded 5 years down the track?

[Crasherfromwayback]

Does header wrap work better than a ceramic coating? I know the coating is quite a bit more expensive.

Have you seen any wrapped headers severely corroded 5 years down the track?

Never compared the two on the dyno sorry mate. As for the life of the headers...can't say. It was on my race bike. Two of the guys here have HD's with 2-1's on them, both wrapped. They've done thousands of km's...and they're both fine.

[steve_t]

Never compared the two on the dyno sorry mate. As for the life of the headers...can't say. It was on my race bike. Two of the guys here have HD's with 2-1's on them, both wrapped. They've done thousands of km's...and they're both fine.

Sweet. Good to know. Never wrapped any exhausts myself. Just gotta take what you read on car forums (and all the interwebs) with a grain of salt :sunny:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Sweet. Good to know. Never wrapped any exhausts myself. Just gotta take what you read on car forums (and all the interwebs) with a grain of salt :sunny:

I've wanked on about our dyno here many times...but it really does not lie, and is way advanced compared to a dynojet jobbie. Was impressive enough for Yoshimura Japan to fly out their top boys to suss it out, and they then had three made for themselves after viewing it in action!

[jonbuoy]

http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/thermal_efficiency.htm

Like I said before, look up thermal efficiency. If you read through the article and actually understand the physics involved you will see that there is a significant loss of calorific energy to the engines cooling system. If you did not need to cool an engine (i.e there were no expansion of metals or melting to worry about) then the engine would run most efficiently with no cooling whatso-ever, particularly if it were well insulated to keep all of the extra heat from combustion in. Theres only one place for the heat to go if that were to happen, and that is into another form of energy, likely to be more useful.

Yes I realise the website is based on aero engines, but it is the same concept for every engine. Unfortunately engines can only be run up to a certain temperature before things go wrong, and thats where the cooling system comes into play. If the engine bay is warm, and the cooling is efficient, then a good balance is easier to maintain. A lot of performance engines are therefore run at a higher temperature than the average, an example being BMW engines which run at close to 90degrees, where a Ford Telstar runs at just under 70degrees.

That article relates to increasing Efficiency (fuel economy) extracting the most energy/litre of fuel (which is more important in an aircraft than a performance car) - nothing to do with increasing or making more power from an engine regardless of fuel economy.

http://www.f1technical.net/features/250

[jonbuoy]

And an article below on increasing fuel economy:

http://www.torquecars.com/tuning/tuning-mpg.php

Regardless, personally I´m going to be fitting a heat shield or header wrap over my exhaust manifold as the supercharger sits on top of the exhaust manifold, not to take advantage of heated exhaust gasses.

[blackdog]

\Quite to the contrary, IIRC the energy from petrol is converted to only about 10% motive force and 90% is wasted as heat.

Impossible! Because a percentage of the potential energy is also converted to light.

[steve_t]

Impossible! Because a percentage of the potential energy is also converted to light.

Approximately... some is also dissipated as sound. Jonbuoy's article says something similar though the figures are different. The point is that for the energy contained within a volume of petrol, the amount that is converted to motive force is relatively very low :niceone:

[huff3r]

That article relates to increasing Efficiency (fuel economy) extracting the most energy/litre of fuel (which is more important in an aircraft than a performance car) - nothing to do with increasing or making more power from an engine regardless of fuel economy.

http://www.f1technical.net/features/250

I give up. Your not at all paying attention to anything I say, nor it seems correctly interpreting a technical article.

Efficiency + More Fuel = Moar Powaaah.

But whatever, sure cold engines are fantastic, i might go remove my thermostat and add 3 more radiators to my car to lower its temps then... :facepalm:

[bogan]

Thermodynamics is a mystery to the commonfolk of KB... :shutup:

Difference between a working knowledge, and an actual knowledge. 'Common folk' often know enough to keep things working, or make small improvements, like cold air intake is good, they then misunderstand the reasons and come up with silly conclusions like cold engine is good!

Don't get me wrong, a working knowledge is fine for most people's self maintenance and minor tuning needs (though carb tuning still flummoxes more than it should). But if you want to do some uncommon modding, or design work, it's insufficient.

[jonbuoy]

I give up. Your not at all paying attention to anything I say, nor it seems correctly interpreting a technical article.

Efficiency + More Fuel = Moar Powaaah.

But whatever, sure cold engines are fantastic, i might go remove my thermostat and add 3 more radiators to my car to lower its temps then... :facepalm:

Maybe you should start working for a top fuel Dragster team, get them to improve their "fuel efficiency". You seem to know more than engine tuners and dyno results. Are you actually reading any of the links? Where have I mentioned a "cold" engine? Efficiency + More Fuel = rich mixture! You need "moar" air to burn "moar" fuel.

If you modify a standard engine (especially adding forced induction) to make significantly more power (burn more air fuel mix) more waste heat will be generated. If that heat builds up in the engine compartment by it will affect the temperature of the intake charge, longevity of everything from the battery to the ECU not to mention heating up brake fluids and the fuel itself. This is a bad thing. Thats my point. Exhaust pipes emit a fair amount of heat into the engine bay - covering them with a heat shield, header wrap will reduce the amount of heat in the engine bay. Which was my original point a few pages ago. Or will the latest craze for the WRC, F1, Moto GP teams be to seal up those engine bays, blank off those radiators as we now know - moar heat=moar power :blink:

[ducatilover]

Maybe you should start working for a top fuel Dragster team, get them to improve their "fuel efficiency". You seem to know more than engine tuners and dyno results.

You'd probably melt the exhaust wrap off the pipes on one of them and there's no need for it, the pipe length is so short and scavenging effect would be redundant and keeping heat in one of those things is NOT a good idea....after all, the exhaust valves are red hot and igniting the fuel after half track :innocent:

Find me a dyno that can handle their power too....

[Big Dave]

It's called 'lagging' you retards.

[nzspokes]

It's called 'lagging' you retards.

I was going to raise that point but thought it would make me sound old.

[imdying]

And I can assure you header wrap works!What does works mean?

[Crasherfromwayback]

What does works mean?

Like a works bike!

[imdying]

:laugh:















.

[avgas]

clocks tell time

you buy clocks with money

therefore, time is money
Clocks have 2 hands. 3 if your rich.

Many hands make light work.

Light work = less time.

This bike almost built itself so he can't charge for his time.

[nzspokes]

Well exhaust is wrapped. I will ride it over the weekend and report back. Looking forward to the extra 25 kph....:woohoo:

[nzspokes]

So results.

To those that said it would make no difference, :nya:

It seemed to make a large difference to the mid range. I didnt really think it would make a difference I could feel. But it did. Theres a steep hill round here i go up and she was 1 gear up. Acceleration is better and the bike is noticeably quieter.

All this started me thinking what else my little bike could do, yesterday pods were fitted and carbs re-jetted. More powa again!!

So its worth doing, at least on my little beast. I only rode it twice stock wrapped but there is an improvement.

[bogan]

So results.

To those that said it would make no difference, :nya:

It seemed to make a large difference to the mid range. I didnt really think it would make a difference I could feel. But it did. Theres a steep hill round here i go up and she was 1 gear up. Acceleration is better and the bike is noticeably quieter.

All this started me thinking what else my little bike could do, yesterday pods were fitted and carbs re-jetted. More powa again!!

So its worth doing, at least on my little beast. I only rode it twice stock wrapped but there is an improvement.

Yeh but did you get that extra 25kph?

[nzspokes]

Yeh but did you get that extra 25kph?

Lol, no. Top speed when I ran it up was the same. But it felt a little sluggish right up top compared to before. I think that was down to jetting.

Since I did those runs ive done the pods and jetting and top speed has come up 6kph. But weather was against me and the run was short. She was still pulling hard so more to come in better weather.

[bogan]

Lol, no. Top speed when I ran it up was the same. But it felt a little sluggish right up top compared to before. I think that was down to jetting.

Since I did those runs ive done the pods and jetting and top speed has come up 6kph. But weather was against me and the run was short. She was still pulling hard so more to come in better weather.

In theory if you are getting better scavenging now, the jetting issue could be more pronounced, thus causing not the extra 25 :bleh:

Also, when you say you've done the jetting, do you mean swapped in some recommended sizes? or done the tuning to make sure they are right as well?

[nzspokes]

In theory if you are getting better scavenging now, the jetting issue could be more pronounced, thus causing not the extra 25 :bleh:

Also, when you say you've done the jetting, do you mean swapped in some recommended sizes? or done the tuning to make sure they are right as well?

SME motorcycles who I got the pods and jets off gave me 1 and 2 sizes bigger in jets with the pods over the factory listing. I found when I changed the jets they were 1 size down on the listing. I did a run on the 1 size up and checked the plug. It was showing signs of being lean so I went up a size. Have not checked plug since ive got back. job for tomorrow. I have jet drills so can keep going if needed.

[ducatilover]

SME motorcycles who I got the pods and jets off gave me 1 and 2 sizes bigger in jets with the pods over the factory listing. I found when I changed the jets they were 1 size down on the listing. I did a run on the 1 size up and checked the plug. It was showing signs of being lean so I went up a size. Have not checked plug since ive got back. job for tomorrow. I have jet drills so can keep going if needed.

What size jets are you running mate? Can you post a pic of them?

[nzspokes]

What size jets are you running mate? Can you post a pic of them?

112 primary and 115 secondry, started on 105/108. They are Kelin? PH-02s. Can post pics tomorrow. Left camera at work.

Would like some spare carbs so I can spend some time to work them out betterer.

[bogan]

Twin main jet carb? Bit different, CV carb?

[nzspokes]

Nah, twin carb single cylinder. So has a primary small choke carb and a bigger choke secondry carb. Also has twin exhaust ports so thats why I had extra wrapping with twin exhaust systems.

[ducatilover]

112 primary and 115 secondry, started on 105/108. They are Kelin? PH-02s. Can post pics tomorrow. Left camera at work.

Would like some spare carbs so I can spend some time to work them out betterer.

Hmmm I was just wondering if I had some more main jets you could have. I've only got 120+ and 96/98 :facepalm: I would have a look, but, I can barely read them.

I have some CVK36 (I think, I forget) you're welcome to have if you want to set it up with a single carb on a cool manifold, or even twin carb it :yes: I have three good carbs, one has a cracked pilot screw housing.

[nzspokes]

Hmmm I was just wondering if I had some more main jets you could have. I've only got 120+ and 96/98 :facepalm: I would have a look, but, I can barely read them.

I have some CVK36 (I think, I forget) you're welcome to have if you want to set it up with a single carb on a cool manifold, or even twin carb it :yes: I have three good carbs, one has a cracked pilot screw housing.

Thanks for that but I think I have to be carefull I dont go to far on it. Pretty happy with it now. Sounds mean with the pods. I can drill jets for size now. Think that it is close.

[bogan]

Thanks for that but I think I have to be carefull I dont go to far on it. Pretty happy with it now. Sounds mean with the pods. I can drill jets for size now. Think that it is close.

you can drill them, but it's a bit hard to undrill em! Good luck, your carb setup sounds very interesting, honda used to do some weird and wonderful things before they just started putting more Rs on the end of the names instead :facepalm:

[ducatilover]

Thanks for that but I think I have to be carefull I dont go to far on it. Pretty happy with it now. Sounds mean with the pods. I can drill jets for size now. Think that it is close.

Don't drill 'em contact these guys; http://www.trademe.co.nz/Members/Listings.aspx?member=106097 cheap and drilling isn't always as good (been there, done that)

[nzspokes]

you can drill them, but it's a bit hard to undrill em! Good luck, your carb setup sounds very interesting, honda used to do some weird and wonderful things before they just started putting more Rs on the end of the names instead :facepalm:

You can undrill them. :yes:

Yeah, second carb comes in from just under half throttle. You can muck about with the linkage to change that but it would be a pig at low revs.

[nzspokes]

Advice on the wrapping, we spoke before about wetting the heat wrap first. Dont. It starts to fall apart and looks rough to. I did one side dry and one wet, dry looks better. I think it sets once heated first time.

[Clockwork]

Hey!!!!
:angry2:
:angry2:

Will you guys stop talkin' about motorcycles in the Rant or Rave forum.

:innocent: