Speeding tickets. Why the angst?

[rastuscat]

Wrote a rambling note about speeding tickets on another thread, then decided it was off topic so deleted it. It was the POP radar detector thread.

It caused me to ponder why it's such an emotive issue. Exceed the tolerance applied to the legal limit, get a ticket, isn't that just how the law works? Why so much grief about it?

Sheesh.

[scumdog]

Wow, can of worms there r.c.

Bored?

[ducatilover]

'Coz da pigz is coonts man, total mo-fuggas eh.

[rastuscat]

Shaking the tree, see what monkeys fall out.

:corn::woohoo:

[steve_t]

:corn:




10 chars

[rastuscat]

'Coz da pigz is coonts man, total mo-fuggas eh.

See wot I mean Scummie? :facepalm:

[Kickaha]

It caused me to ponder why it's such an emotive issue. Exceed the tolerance applied to the legal limit, get a ticket, isn't that just how the law works? Why so much grief about it?

Sheesh.

Because I'm a safe rider at any speed so should be allowed to travel at any speed I want so why don't you go catch some real criminals you filthy dirty donut muncher :bleh:

[bogan]

Arbitrary taxation of the people <_< Nah, no reason to get all angsty in the pantsy there :innocent:

[steve_t]

See wot I mean Scummie? :facepalm:

I think you just got trolled :violin:

This is off topic, but since you're here, have the cops given up on enforcing the "Do not use foglights unless it's foggy" law they introduced only a while back? For 4wd's and cars of course :innocent:

[rastuscat]

I think you just got trolled :violin:

This is off topic, but since you're here, have the cops given up on enforcing the "Do not use foglights unless it's foggy" law they introduced only a while back? For 4wd's and cars of course :innocent:

Never enforced it myself, so continuing that policy isn't giving up.

The law hasn't changed, I think, just faded into the mist of random enforcement only. From time to time I'm sure there'll be a rash of tickets for it, but it's a long way from being a big issue.

[rastuscat]

Arbitrary taxation of the people <_< Nah, no reason to get all angsty in the pantsy there :innocent:

Arbitrary?

Nope, it's self selecting.

No speed, no speed ticket.

To suggest it's arbitrary would be to suggest that we pre-print them, then randomly stop vehicles for someone to hand them to.

So now everyone gets to tell me it already happens.

Just off to drive a nail through my hand...............:shutup:

[bogan]

Arbitrary?

Nope, it's self selecting.

No speed, no speed ticket.

To suggest it's arbitrary would be to suggest that we pre-print them, then randomly stop vehicles for someone to hand them to.

So now everyone gets to tell me it already happens.

Just off to drive a nail through my hand...............:shutup:

The "Someone else made the rule, we just enforce it sir" argument then?

[blackdog]

Just off to drive a nail through my hand...............:shutup:

So what do you need us for if you can crucify yourself?

[rastuscat]

Because I'm a safe rider at any speed so should be allowed to travel at any speed I want so why don't you go catch some real criminals you filthy dirty donut muncher :bleh:

Nice insult. Good work. Hadn't thought of that one. :yes:

[scumdog]

Arbitrary?

Nope, it's self selecting.

No speed, no speed ticket.

To suggest it's arbitrary would be to suggest that we pre-print them, then randomly stop vehicles for someone to hand them to.

So now everyone gets to tell me it already happens.

Just off to drive a nail through my hand...............:shutup:

Wow man, the real drag about self-crucifixion is getting the last nail in...

[Road kill]

Wrote a rambling note about speeding tickets on another thread, then decided it was off topic so deleted it. It was the POP radar detector thread.

It caused me to ponder why it's such an emotive issue. Exceed the tolerance applied to the legal limit, get a ticket, isn't that just how the law works? Why so much grief about it?

Sheesh.

Because some of the really good riders are quite good at clocking them up,which they don't like because it costs them lots of money.
In the mean time 'really shit house riders like me have only had one speeding ticket in around 40 years of riding "and it cost Fuck all cause it was only for doing 65kms in a 50km zone "I was doing real good that day",,,,,and anyway,,,it's just not fair is it:innocent:

[rastuscat]

So what do you need us for if you can crucify yourself?

The night before the crucifixion would be with the Swedish Womens Volleyball Team. Not expecting to have to build a cross any time soon.:blink:

[steve_t]

Never enforced it myself, so continuing that policy isn't giving up.

The law hasn't changed, I think, just faded into the mist of random enforcement only. From time to time I'm sure there'll be a rash of tickets for it, but it's a long way from being a big issue.

I thought it was a bit rough pinging boy racers and other car drivers but those 4WDs with the large yellow ones attached to their bull bars are almost always blinding.

Back on topic, I think there's grief when people get tickets, for example, for going 105km/h on a straight, clear road on a public holiday. That's caused grief previously for someone I know :yes:

[scumdog]

Back on topic, I think there's grief when people get tickets, for example, for going 105km/h on a straight, clear road on a public holiday. That's caused grief previously for someone I know :yes:

Yeah, like when my mate got done for DIC and he only blew 435, shee-it, that's not even 10% over, now THAT'S grief...

[steve_t]

Yeah, like when my mate got done for DIC and he only blew 435, shee-it, that's not even 10% over, now THAT'S grief...

So you think driving at 105km/h on a straight clear road is as dangerous as driving with enough booze in your system to blow 435?

[bogan]

So you think driving at 105km/h on a straight clear road is as dangerous as driving with enough booze in your system to blow 435?

They don't get paid to think, just paid to enforce the arbitrary laws!

[rastuscat]

Back on topic, I think there's grief when people get tickets, for example, for going 105km/h on a straight, clear road on a public holiday. That's caused grief previously for someone I know :yes:

I'd have a bit more sympathy if there hadn't been so much media about it before hand.

Like, I point a gun at someone and tell them that if they move I'll shoot. They move, I shoot. Whose fault is that?

Allow me to add that speed isn't my ticket du jour. Just pondering why it is the complaint du jour.

Why don't we bang on about how unfair and money grubbing seatbelt tickets are?

[scumdog]

So you think driving at 105km/h on a straight clear road is as dangerous as driving with enough booze in your system to blow 435?

Can be

But you would have to convince the lawmakers that it's not.

And 105kph does not always reflect the speed the vehicle had been doing prior to that speed being recorded....now there's another cluster of worms...

[DrunkenMistake]

Wrote a rambling note about speeding tickets on another thread, then decided it was off topic so deleted it. It was the POP radar detector thread.

It caused me to ponder why it's such an emotive issue. Exceed the tolerance applied to the legal limit, get a ticket, isn't that just how the law works? Why so much grief about it?

Sheesh.

Im only a young fella ill be honest, but even I can see its clear,
People of all ages, sizes and color in this society can NOT accept responsibility for their own actions, its a real shame.

[spannermad]

As a teenager I had plenty of tickets, and bitched about every one of them, including having to walk for the best part of two years in the first three years that I had my licence. Yes it was the cops fault that I was caught doing 220+ km/h in 70km/h zone,
bloody pricks.
Then I grew up. That`s when you realise that it`s my hand on the throttle, and my choice to twist it, and therefore the consequences are mine.
I now enjoy the ride, seeing the country, not just the strip of road just in front of me.

Old story, IF YOU CAN`T DO THE TIME, DON`T DO THE CRIME :violin:.
In other words , harden the F%#K UP and stop crying that YOU did WRONG.

[FJRider]

They don't get paid to think, just paid to enforce the arbitrary laws!

An interesting comment ... considering not that long ago ... there was a thread about a biker ... that might be alive, if he was obeying those arbitrary laws ...

Not to obey them can be a bit of a gamble ... even on a good day ...

[Scuba_Steve]

Wrote a rambling note about speeding tickets on another thread, then decided it was off topic so deleted it. It was the POP radar detector thread.

It caused me to ponder why it's such an emotive issue. Exceed the tolerance applied to the legal limit, get a ticket, isn't that just how the law works? Why so much grief about it?

Sheesh.

Why? because it is a scam! this is 1st & foremost.
Then it takes away from real crime (something that is on the rise).
It creates slow unsafe drivers, having the opposite effect of that which it is touted to do.
In the UK the speed scam has been shown to cost upto 10,000 lives a year (directly & indirectly) given a straight population diff calculation thats 714 in NZ, (but obviously this is not an accurate way to do it a full study like in the UK would have to be preformed).
These are some of the reasons

[rastuscat]

Man, wouldn't it be cool to sit around and discuss this sort of thing over a lemonade or two?

No, I'm not grooming you.:shit:

[bogan]

An interesting comment ... considering not that long ago ... there was a thread about a biker ... that might be alive, if he was obeying those arbitrary laws ...

Not to obey them can be a bit of a gamble ... even on a good day ...

But the odds are not fixed to that arbitrary number, the odds change with both speed and conditions, most motorists understand this on some level (though for some it's buried pretty deep). The angst can come because the motorist feels their driving in those conditions was as safe or safer than driving at the limit for other conditions.

[Scuba_Steve]

Why don't we bang on about how unfair and money grubbing seatbelt tickets are?

Yea I'm not a fan of them either, Your gang just doesn't seem to try that as much.

But If I want to take the chance on killing my self why shouldn't I be allowed???
In the van where I don't like to wear them cause I'm fucked anyways in an accident, I have to. Yet in the Landy where the other persons fucked & I would wear one I'm not allowed, it's illegal for me to wear it. Fucking retarded rules we have round here... But back on topic ay

[wysper]

But If I want to take the chance on killing my self why shouldn't I be allowed???


Because we all pay when you fail, bloody expensive to put a body back together again.

And then there are the innocents you might just take out while you are taking the chance on killing your self.

[FJRider]

But the odds are not fixed to that arbitrary number, the odds change with both speed and conditions, most motorists understand this on some level (though for some it's buried pretty deep). The angst can come because the motorist feels their driving in those conditions was as safe or safer than driving at the limit for other conditions.

So many things "affect the odds" ... and on any given day, you may not be even aware on what those conditions are/could be ...

I find it amazing how many drunks and idiots think their driving is safe ... but are dead wrong ...

[ducatilover]

This is no way near as funny as I expected. :facepalm:

[rastuscat]

Yea I'm not a fan of them either, Your gang just doesn't seem to try that as much.

But If I want to take the chance on killing my self why shouldn't I be allowed???
In the van where I don't like to wear them cause I'm fucked anyways in an accident, I have to. Yet in the Landy where the other persons fucked & I would wear one I'm not allowed, it's illegal for me to wear it. Fucking retarded rules we have round here... But back on topic ay

Yo Skoober Steve.

I'd support seatbelts being a personal choice thing BUT ONLY IF the ambulance that picks you up was paid for only by you, the plastic surgeon was paid for only by you, blah blah blah. You get the drift.

Are there ANY tickets that aren't just revenue collecting, quota catching, money grubbing, tax collecting gubbermint instruments?

[HenryDorsetCase]

I dont care about velocity tax. Demerit points piss me off.

[Usarka]

Im only a young fella ill be honest, but even I can see its clear,
People of all ages, sizes and color in this society can NOT accept responsibility for their own actions, its a real shame.

Exactly!

People become cops and then whinge because people don't like being ticketed? What's with that....?

[Scuba_Steve]

Because we all pay when you fail, bloody expensive to put a body back together again.

And then there are the innocents you might just take out while you are taking the chance on killing your self.


Yo Skoober Steve.

I'd support seatbelts being a personal choice thing BUT ONLY IF the ambulance that picks you up was paid for only by you, the plastic surgeon was paid for only by you, blah blah blah. You get the drift.
Then shouldn't we also give up the bikes??? or be under under those same "pay for your own ambulance"??? we're just as fucked on them if not more-so.



Are there ANY tickets that aren't just revenue collecting, quota catching, money grubbing, tax collecting gubbermint instruments?

Yes drink driving for one, impeding the flow of traffic, failing to keep left, dangerous driving...
it'd just be easier to list the :bs: laws/tickets

[sidecar bob]

Its easy to ticket people for speeding, you aim a machine at them & it immediatly tells if they are breaking the law or not. A no brainer really.
Surely a machine that can gauge the stupidity of a motorist rather than the speed simply by pointing it at them would be a better gadget wouldnt it??

[rastuscat]

Surely a machine that can gauge the stupidity of a motorist rather than the speed simply by pointing it at them would be a better gadget wouldnt it??

It's already been invented. It's an Isuzu Piazza. Owning one was conclusive proof of stupidity.

[SPman]

Probably because of the politically dictated, pedantic application, of the letter of the law, rather than the spirit of the law......which then polarises the population.......

"Laws - put there for the guidance of wise men and the slavish obedience of fools!".......someone or other.....

[Jay GTI]

For me it's because speeding is unavoidable. There isn't a person on this planet who hasn't sped at some point, or in fact speeds on a regular basis.

I'm not talking about Mr WRX who thinks the roads are his personal racetrack, I'm talking about Mr Average, who doesn't quite drop down to the speed limit before he passes the 50 sign after he leaves the 70 zone. The guy who lets the speed creep up slightly on an open, clear road, before glancing down at the speedo and re-correcting. Who doesn't coast down hills with one foot on the brake and one eye on the speedo, just in case he's gone over the limit. He is just a normal driver, he does what we all do, but he is liable for a penalty for each and every one of the above scenarios. It's part of driving, it's natural, it happens day in, day out by almost every driver on the road, without consequence. But it is still, by the letter of the law, illegal.

Why don't people feel the same about seatbelt tickets? Well my seatbelt goes on when I get in the car, it comes off just before I get out. It doesn't slip off when I'm not quite paying attention. It doesn't slightly pop out when I'm driving along a clear road in good light with no other traffic around. It's either on and I won't get ticketed or it's not and I am quite obviously cruising for that ticket. I can slap on the seatbelt when I get into the car and not put another seconds thought into that seatbelt until I turn off the ignition at the end of my journey. The results of wearing a seatbelt or not are quite obvious too. I crash at a reasonable pace with one on, I might have a bit of difficultly breathing for a while. Crash at the same speed without one and emergency services get to scrape bits of me off the dashboard.

Revenue collecting or not, quota or otherwise, of course being penalised for 106kph or 110pkh* on a clear, open road that just happens to be on Easter Monday is going to provoke emotive reactions. I can, to the very best of my ability, try to drive to the speed limit every single time I get into my car, but I know that because of the physical nature of what I am doing and the fact that I know I cannot humanly concentrate on my speed 100% of the time, I will break the law every single time I get into my car. And if there's a cop with a speed camera, hiding behind some trees around a blind bend at the bottom of a hill, who pings me for doing 6-10kph over the limit, he has done so because I have done something that is illegal. Whether or not I have done something dangerous, that is irrelevant, but broken the law? Yup. So if that happens and it pushes me a step closer to a State-sponsored walking holiday, and the best that the cop can come up with is "because it's illegal", is it really surprising I'd feel a little hard done by?

For the record, I do know there are flaws in my reasoning and I do understand lowest common denominator and trying to change the ingrained attitudes of kiwi drivers (by and large, awful) and all that other waffle, but I'm just stating why I see it as a ticket that gets the reaction it does.

*if someone can provide me with information about how much increase in risk of injury and death there is travelling at 100kph and 110kph, please let me know, I am seriously curious.

[Jay GTI]

It's already been invented. It's an Isuzu Piazza. Owning one was conclusive proof of stupidity.

Ah shit, I've owned one of them and sadly I agree. Please ignore my previous post...:facepalm:

[Lateralus]

if someone can provide me with information about how much increase in risk of injury and death there is travelling at 100kph and 110kph, please let me know, I am seriously curious.


From http://www.tacsafety.com.au/jsp/content/NavigationController.do?areaID=12&tierID=1&navID=5F348AC7&navLink=null&pageID=169


the risk of involvement in a casualty crash doubles with each 5km/h increase in free travelling speed above 60km/h, and a 5km/h reduction in speed can result in a decrease of at least 15% in the number of crashes.

[Jantar]

.... Why so much grief about it?

.

OK, I'll assume this is a genuine question and not a wind up.

Almost all traffic enforcement in New Zealand is aimed at road safety. The speed limit rule is the major exception to this. It is an arbitary figure, plucked out of the air and its sole basis is on the effect of accidents at speeds in excess of the limit. It doesn't consider the accident causes which are usually not related to exceeding the speed limit, but rather at too fast for the conditions.

In those countries where the speed limit has been raised, the accident rate has usually dropped. Similarly in places that have lowered the speed limit (like Australia NT) the accident rate increased. I have posted links to back up these claims on previous threads about the speed limit. I know the counter argument about allowing everyone to chose their own speed, but that just doesn't happen. In those USA states where the double nickel (55 mph) speed limit was raised, the average speed that traffic travelled at was only increased very slightly, not by as much as the increase in the limit. This shows that drivers, given the opportunity, WILL exercise some skill at reading the conditions and driving appropriately.

Yes, there will still be some who will use the road as their personal racetrack, but are probably doing that already. The police still have option of charges such as: driving at a speed such that they would be unable to stop in the clear visible distance ahead; careless driving; dangerous driving; etc. So those who are just outright dangerous can still be ticketed.

Research that I have read shows that drivers who are permitted to drive according to the conditions (road, traffic, vehicle, personal) are less likely to be drowsy, bored or sleepy, and are overall safer drivers.

Then comes the policing aspect of it. I'm sure you've issued tickets where the driver is incredulous at the speed you quote him, just as there are others who will 'fess up and admit to the speed. You've also met those who will lie, cheat and do everything possible to get you to not write out a ticket. Unfortunately there are a few in the force (I've named one to SD and another senior police officer) who will also lie, cheat and do everything possible to keep their ticket number up.

One local officer has been known in the past to stop a vehicle early in the day and lock a speed of around 116 kmh or thereabouts. Then he would stop motorcycles, sports cars or anyone who looked like they may be able to speed and ask them how fast they were going. if they admitted to being over the speed limit and name a speed then he would accept their stated speed and write the ticket. If they disputed speeding he would show the speed locked on the radar and write out the ticket for that speed (or close to it). There is nothing on the radar that shows the time or location that the speed was locked.

Hence the whole thing about speeding tickets is a "he said, she said" situation that involves an arbitrary limit with no actual evidence of an offence being required.

Does that explain the grief?

[steve_t]

From http://www.tacsafety.com.au/jsp/content/NavigationController.do?areaID=12&tierID=1&navID=5F348AC7&navLink=null&pageID=169


A car travelling at 60km/h will take 45m to stop in an emergency braking situation :blink::blink::blink::blink:

[BigAl]

For me it's because speeding is unavoidable. There isn't a person on this planet who hasn't sped at some point, or in fact speeds on a regular basis. etc...


Wholly agree with Jay, unintentional exceeding of speed limit is now adays always penalised.

In the old days the coppers used some discretion and 110 kph on a straight, low populated road in good conditions didn't always warrant a fine.

That is why people get pissed off with the "revenue generation" these days.

On an aside an acquaintance recently got done for 92ks just coming into a rural 50k area early on a fine Sunday morning, very little traffic, copper under a tree. 28 days loss of license, $500 and 50 points. Copper wouldn't drop it to 89k as he was not allowed but he thought he was very generous in not taking license straight away, bloody pricks!

[scumdog]

NOW see what you've done r.c.?????:blink:

[Edbear]

Its easy to ticket people for speeding, you aim a machine at them & it immediatly tells if they are breaking the law or not. A no brainer really.
Surely a machine that can gauge the stupidity of a motorist rather than the speed simply by pointing it at them would be a better gadget wouldnt it??

They simply wouldn't be able to keep pace with the tickets! There isn't enough paper in the world to be able to write that number! :bye:

[FJRider]

They simply wouldn't be able to keep pace with the tickets! There isn't enough paper in the world to be able to write that number! :bye:

Think of the revenue they would gather then though ... :facepalm:

[Ocean1]

I point a gun at someone and tell them that if they move I'll shoot. They move, I shoot. Whose fault is that?

Yours. Disturbing that a law enforcement officer should interpret it any other way.


I'd support seatbelts being a personal choice thing BUT ONLY IF the ambulance that picks you up was paid for only by you, the plastic surgeon was paid for only by you, blah blah blah. You get the drift.

But we don't have the choice to not pay ACC, do we? In fact demanding people behave other than how they might otherwise choose on threat of retribution is generally called extortion.

Me? If I had the choice I'd take the deal, pay the paltry ACC costs and behave myself accordingly. On the other hand I'll do whatever I can to protect that choice, "legal" or otherwise.

[scumdog]

Surely a machine that can gauge the stupidity of a motorist rather than the speed simply by pointing it at them would be a better gadget wouldnt it??

Ah, the 'Stupidometer' - I use to mention it often on the Lou Girardin days...

[Edbear]

Ah, the 'Stupidometer' - I use to mention it often on the Lou Girardin days...

Haven't heard from Lou for ages, know how he is these days?

[FJRider]

Yours. Disturbing that a law enforcement officer should interpret it any other way.

He put it in a way ... even an idiot would understand. If you have ever looked down a barrel ... you may understand even better. And even idiots would remember ...


But we don't have the choice to not pay ACC, do we? In fact demanding people behave other than how they might otherwise choose on threat of retribution is generally called extortion.

Choosing to be living in a society has a cost ... and it's the rules ...

Don't like the rules ??? ... go somewhere else ... :shutup:


Me? If I had the choice I'd take the deal, pay the paltry ACC costs and behave myself accordingly. On the other hand I'll do whatever I can to protect that choice, "legal" or otherwise.

No, it's not a choice, merely a decision. ... To just obey the rules that suit ... at the time ... in the "pursuit of freedom" no doubt ... :lol:

And when you break the rules .. and get the penalties ... you shout UNFAIR ... :blink:

[Kickaha]

On an aside an acquaintance recently got done for 92ks just coming into a rural 50k area early on a fine Sunday morning, very little traffic, copper under a tree. 28 days loss of license, $500 and 50 points. Copper wouldn't drop it to 89k as he was not allowed but he thought he was very generous in not taking license straight away, bloody pricks!

So the cops are pricks because your acquaintance is to fucking stupid to lower his speed before he hits the 50kmh zone?

[onearmedbandit]

I speeded today I did and I got no ticket. Time and place 'n'all that.

[Berries]

Well here’s my take on the ‘big four’.

Alcohol. If you are over the limit when you start your trip you are more than likely going to be over the limit when you end the trip. Therefore you are impaired for the full length of your trip and thus a risk.

Seatbelts. If you don’t bother you don’t bother, but as said so eloquently by Jay, you don’t take them off part way through your journey. Like alcohol then, whatever the risk, it is the same for the full length of your trip.

Failing to give way. Fairly bloody obvious really.

Now speed. Unlike the first two, this can vary throughout your journey based on a multitude of reasons, only one of which is the posted speed limit. Give me a ticket for 180km/h and fair enough, you’ve got me exceeding the speed limit at a speed that means I know I was exceeding the speed limit. I’ll be pissed at myself for getting caught but I’ll take the medicine and start walking. Get me for 108 however and I’ll be pissed at the Police. It is inappropriate speed that kills, not non-compliance with whatever the current speed limit is. By placing speed cameras on downhill straights or passing lanes, or on motorways with design speeds greater than the speed limit you aren’t doing much to improve road safety. That is why it is seen as revenue gathering, fishing holes are fishing holes for a reason, good for contacts but unlikely to have any link with safety other than the grand plan of reducing average speeds and getting persistent low level speeders off the road. All it actually does is impact on our view of the Police.

A vehicle that crashes on a 55km/h bend while doing 90 isn’t speeding, but it is a true speed related crash, too fast for the conditions. You don’t do anything about them because they aren’t breaking the law. And that is where the whole speeding mantra falls over. You are enforcing the limit that is currently in favour with no regard for location or actual risk. Here’s a question for you. What proportion of speed related crashes are crashes where the vehicle was going over the posted speed limit? Nobody knows because the information isn’t collected to any degree of accuracy unless it is a proper big smash.

Lets face it. You focus on speed because it is easy to measure and compare to a sign at the side of the road, unlike fatigue for example which in my opinion is a far greater issue. Plain old bad driving is an issue. Sitting on an overbridge with a speed gun does fuck all to stop that. Your main problem is that we all know it.


I speeded today I did and I got no ticket. Time and place 'n'all that.
Me too. And I didn't kill anyone.

[Brian d marge]

Help, master, help! here's a fish hangs in the net,
like a poor man's right in the law.

and from Evermondes own lips "Repression is the only lasting philosophy. The dark deference of fear and slavery, my friend, will keep the dogs obedient to the whip, as long as this roof shuts out the sky,"



Stop justifying it , just hand out those tickets .......

Stephen

[rastuscat]

One local officer has been known in the past to stop a vehicle early in the day and lock a speed of around 116 kmh or thereabouts. Then he would stop motorcycles, sports cars or anyone who looked like they may be able to speed and ask them how fast they were going. if they admitted to being over the speed limit and name a speed then he would accept their stated speed and write the ticket. If they disputed speeding he would show the speed locked on the radar and write out the ticket for that speed (or close to it). There is nothing on the radar that shows the time or location that the speed was locked........................................Does that explain the grief?

If what you say is true, that's really sad. It degrades the work of people I work with and me.

Thing is, enough people speed..............why would he have to make it up?

If I spend the day on the highways genuinely looking for speed offences and find none, isn't that a good thing?

I expect, once again, that you and I have a lot of beliefs in common.

[rastuscat]

In the old days the coppers used some discretion and 110 kph on a straight, low populated road in good conditions didn't always warrant a fine.

That is why people get pissed off with the "revenue generation" these days.


Funny, have been doing this job for 23 years, and the carping has never changed. Every day or so for that period I've been told it's been revenue collecting.

There's been no change. Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.

Harumph.

[rastuscat]

A vehicle that crashes on a 55km/h bend while doing 90 isn’t speeding, but it is a true speed related crash, too fast for the conditions. You can't do anything about them because they aren’t breaking the law. .

Fixed it for you.

They get charged with Careless, instead of a speed related offence.

You're right tho.

[scumdog]

Funny, have been doing this job for 23 years, and the carping has never changed. Every day or so for that period I've been told it's been revenue collecting.

There's been no change. Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.

Harumph.

Remember the days whe we only issued tickets to those doing 20kph+ faster than the posted speed limit?
The buggers that got tickets back then still whinged their arses off...:facepalm:

"Haven't you got anything better to do"
"Aw c'mon, it's not THAT much faster than the speed limit"
"You're just revenue gathering"
"I'm better off keeping my eyes on the road than staring at the bloody speedo all the time"
"Why aren't you catching real criminals instead of bothering me"
"I bet you speed at times"

yadda-yadda-yadda,
:violin::violin::violin::violin:

boy all that whinging really changed things eh!!

[Metastable]

I'll give you guys my take from spending a short amount of time in NZ.

First off I think most of your limits are pretty reasonable with the exception of the motorways. 100kph on those highways around Auckland is way too slow and typically the speed limits in most places around the world is 120-130 kph. Now, the funny bit is where I live in Canada our limit is 100kph on the highways to, but we know it is ok do go 120kph. However our limits on back roads is usually 80kph, but we have crazy limits in some spots that are 50 where it really should be AT LEAST 80. In short we have some places where EVERYONE is going well above the limit and others where most people don't even get to the limit.

PROBLEM: the limits are set by city council who usually have no idea about what a safe speed should be. IMO, the limit should always be set and adjusted according to a PROPER ENGINEERING STUDY to find out what the safest speed is.

OK - now that we got that out of the way.

I think Jantar and Jay GTI brought up some good points. Follow the SPIRIT of the law, not the letter of the law. You know there are some 100 zones where if someone is speeding, then that can be dangerous. There are other places where doing 120 is perfectly fine and safe. You can't compare doing 5kph over to blowing a little over the alcohol limit, because the person speeding hasn't lost the physical ability to drive a vehicle.

Now - Jantar touched on a subject that happened to ME. I had a police officer guess my speed. I couldn't believe I was even being pulled over, he handed me the ticket and told me to go to court where he would reduce it (he was trying to get overtime pay, he can reduce it on the spot and mark the ticket with an "R"). He then waved over another guy without using any speed measuring device and handed him a ticket too. Once I asked for disclosure to fight this bogus ticket, he lied on the disclosure form and there was a speed written on it that we had never discussed. At this point I got a specialist involved to fight the ticket and I won it in court. Anyway, that irks you the wrong way. From what I hear, as a whole your police services have a higher standard for ethics than what we often see here.

So I don't see why people would complain if they are exceeding the limit by an excessive amount since as I mentioned before your limits are pretty reasonable.

As far as seat belts and helmets.... IMO it should be the person's choice. I WOULD ALWAYS wear my lid and my seat belt, but I think the person should decided. I don't know if it would have that great of an impact on health care, since more would die anyway. It would just help Darwin out a bit more.

[Berries]

and from Evermondes own lips "Repression is the only lasting philosophy. The dark deference of fear and slavery, my friend, will keep the dogs obedient to the whip, as long as this roof shuts out the sky,"
What he said. Possibly.

[jim.cox]

the limit should always be set and adjusted according to a PROPER ENGINEERING STUDY to find out what the safest speed is.


We spend huge ammounts of money to build our state highways with a design speed of 120 kmh. The design speed is a function of width of lane, width of shoulder, curve design etc

Its also the speed that 85% of the travelling population will wnat to use for that road

Then we arbitrarily restrict them to 100kmh

So we are

A: wasting our money building flash roads

and

B: annoying the hell out of people when they get ticketed for using the road the way it was inteneded

[DEATH_INC.]

"A car travelling at 60km/h will take 45m to stop in an emergency braking situation "
What utter bollocks. I've seen a test conducted by Continental on a variety of tyres, with very sophisticated testing gear, and the stopping distances VARIED by 35 meters at 80kmh. How can this be accurate?
This is what f*cks me off about the speed laws, there are so many other things that cause accidents that are ignored. Yet they hound speed like you are a murderer.
Speed is not the problem, bad driving is.

[DEATH_INC.]

Also cars, tyres (if you don't drive on cheap chinese rubbish that should be banned) and suspension have come a long way in the last 20 years, yet the speed limit remains the same?

[rastuscat]

This is what f*cks me off about the speed laws, there are so many other things that cause accidents that are ignored. Yet they hound speed like you are a murderer.

Wondered when this would arise so I've prepared a response.

NEVER LET THE FACTS GET IN THE WAY OF A GOOD WHINGE

9% of the tickets my section issued last year were for speed.

So there.

[Scuba_Steve]

I think there may also be some discrepancies between the North & South Island cops, which may also lead to misunderstandings IMO the south island still has a little bit of justice left in it whereas the North island is fucked, look no further than the propaganda machine to see that :yes:

[Grubber]

Yeah, like when my mate got done for DIC and he only blew 435, shee-it, that's not even 10% over, now THAT'S grief...

With booze in the system your a danger at all times:: speeding at 110k's your not ever a danger to anyone unless you can't ride for shit.
Thought that was obvious really.

[Metastable]

Wondered when this would arise so I've prepared a response.

NEVER LET THE FACTS GET IN THE WAY OF A GOOD WHINGE

9% of the tickets my section issued last year were for speed.

So there.

See that right there is AWESOME!!!! Over here it seems like the police only care about speeding and drinking. No doubt the drinking bit is justified, but too much emphasis is put on speeding and not enough on impeding traffic flow, improper lane positioning, signaling, driving without due care and attention, etc.

Which actually leads to another point. If it were me (and it isn't :D ) I would make the police car visible to motorists .... or somewhat visible. If they keep on speeding, then YOU KNOW they aren't paying attention. THAT is a problem. If an officer is hiding, then well.... you don't know if that driver is paying attention or not. I'd want to know that piece of information if I were the police.

One final note.... up here I wouldn't really care about speeding tickets if it were not for the insurance companies. Except your insurance can go from $1500 to $3000 because of 1 or 2 minor moving violations. My understanding is that this is not a problem in NZ. That's a good thing. Up here I'm not upset about the police handing out tickets if there is an infraction going on; however, I don't like how the insurance industry can manipulate things to such a gross monetary benefit.

[DEATH_INC.]

9% of the tickets my section issued last year were for speed.

So there.
Do you have the national figures handy?

[Grubber]

Funny, have been doing this job for 23 years, and the carping has never changed. Every day or so for that period I've been told it's been revenue collecting.

There's been no change. Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.

Harumph.

Maybe it's because that's what its been....revenue gathering:facepalm:!

[HenryDorsetCase]

Fixed it for you.

They get charged with Careless, instead of a speed related offence.

You're right tho.

I believe that speed limits are a suggestion for weak minded individuals. I also believe they should be nothing more than suggestions. If as a result of something going wrong and injury or accident resulting, the po po have the option of charging the driver with careless, reckless or dangerous driving. And having that assertion tested in court, the way it should be.

infringement notices are in my view an abrogation of the basic right to a fair trial in the name of revenue collection and expediency.

and. like I said before, the message is mixed. If it is about revenue collection, why not have an 80kph speed limit but no demerit points? that way, if you want to go faster,. you can, and if apprehended, you just pay extra tax. If it isnt about revenue collection, then why have fines at all. Govern vehicles so they cannot under any circumstances exceed the speed limit, and if by chance they are able to be circumvented, then instant permanent loss of licence.

mixed message, flawed system, stupid results.

[HenryDorsetCase]

9% of the tickets my section issued last year were for speed.

So there.

yeah but your results are skewed because you're in the STG, right? or the guy that visits schools with the dog to keep kids off drugs? or in the DLA?

[Littleman]

Middle class males on sportsbikes not wanting to be told what to do.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Middle class males on sportsbikes not wanting to be told what to do.

"K7 600"

you too, huh?

[Swoop]

"Laws - put there for the guidance of wise men and the slavish obedience of fools!".......someone or other.....

"Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men". Douglas Bader.

[Toaster]

Do I like the speed limits? Not at all. Do I think they should be more generous in certain places, absolutely. Would I like to see more common sense discretionary use of time place and circumstances - very much so.

Who is at fault if I get a ticket - me. End of story.

Fines simply mean I am robbing my family of funds that could have been used for their benefit. So I keep it reasonable on the roads and save it for the track.

[Usarka]

Wondered when this would arise so I've prepared a response.

NEVER LET THE FACTS GET IN THE WAY OF A GOOD WHINGE

9% of the tickets my section issued last year were for speed.

So there.

You're from rangiora.....so what's the percentage issued for no rego or warrant?

[steve_t]

9% of the tickets my section issued last year were for speed.



Wow. I commend you. Are you guys the exception to the rule or is that normal? I struggle to believe it's normal. How many speed camera fines were issued in your region? And with what sum value?

[Zedder]

"A car travelling at 60km/h will take 45m to stop in an emergency braking situation "
What utter bollocks. I've seen a test conducted by Continental on a variety of tyres, with very sophisticated testing gear, and the stopping distances VARIED by 35 meters at 80kmh. How can this be accurate?
This is what f*cks me off about the speed laws, there are so many other things that cause accidents that are ignored. Yet they hound speed like you are a murderer.
Speed is not the problem, bad driving is.

But handing out fines is a far easier and cheaper way to "train" people.

[oneofsix]

But handing out fines is a far easier and cheaper way to "train" people.

But being cheap, like most cheap products, it fails more often. It many fails because those that promote it forget their target audience are people. When the training fails it then becomes revenue.

[DEATH_INC.]

Speed limits should be abolished, and replaced with a recommended speed. Then PROPERLY trained officers can judge for themselves and issue a dangerous driving charge if your driving warrants it.

Let's use me as an example, the last 3 speeding tickets I've had (that I remember)

142 kph, followed by a cop for 15km. In his words "I could see you were riding well within your capabilities" and remember, he followed us for 15k. Was it really dangerous?

In he company bug, 60 something in a 50. Arrogant as f*ck south african cop. Driving with the flow of the traffic the next day....nearly 80kmh. Dangerous?

On My old ZX12, designed to be the first production bike to break 200 mph (it didn't happen, but that's another story) at 6am monday morning in a small town, 60 something kph. Only myself on the road (sh1), hardly saw another vehicle. Dangerous?

Still wonder why I hate speeding tickets?

[Scuba_Steve]

Speed limits should be abolished, and replaced with a recommended speed. Then PROPERLY trained officers can judge for themselves and issue a dangerous driving charge if your driving warrants it.


I would do just that, all speed signs would go yellow, with possibly an exception for populated CBD's/shopping areas might keep red's there.

[Zedder]

But being cheap, like most cheap products, it fails more often. It many fails because those that promote it forget their target audience are people. When the training fails it then becomes revenue.

That's the real problem: people. Many types, driving styles, attitudes etc.

[oneofsix]

I would do just that, all speed signs would go yellow, with possibly an exception for populated CBD's/shopping areas might keep red's there.

Don't forget to revoke the local council ability to set lower speed limits, like WCC's idea of a city wide 40k limit, 40k along the Quays FFS!

[oneofsix]

That's the real problem: people. Many types, driving styles, attitudes etc.

agreed and is why the current zombie like attitude by the authorities is domed to fail. The slow drivers will just get slower. Speed is a relative thing and it is the difference in velocity between the two objects that cause the degree of mess. As the slow drivers will just become slower then the velocity difference will remain, add to that the drive offs caused by bored/wary drivers and crash rate doesn't change nor the death rate. Driver education and drivers taking responsibility is what is required. Death_inc is on the right track with the comments on policing dangerous, and I would include careless, driving, but that costs more.

[HenryDorsetCase]

bring back carless days, that'll drop the road toll by a seventh!

obviously.

[SPman]

That's the real problem: people. Many types, driving styles, attitudes etc.
And therein lies the rub.......we've all seen how a lot of people drive ...the more you are on the road, the more and scarier examples you see....standards in driving are not set or enforced other than through random policing action. If pilots got their licenses the same way vehicle licenses are obtained, we'd be constantly dodging a rain of falling aircraft bits!
Higher driving standards - better trained and graded drivers, higher standards for traffic related police officers - including psychological tests if necessary, to weed out the power trippers and uber control freaks - with intelligent road regulations and application of said regulations, and no political interference!

Weeding out of incompetent drivers - means better public transport of course........

There are some intelligent police out there who do try and handle traffic intelligently...not enough, though, either on the road or in admin.

Most drivers (and riders), have a sense of ability far outweighing actual ability and there are a lot of ego trippers out there who's sense of worth is tied up in their "ability" to "control" a vehicle, and don't like it when told otherwise! By pulling them over they perceive you as having a go at their inflated sense of self - "they're better than average and should be allowed to go faster than the rest"....hence the diatribes! You probably find that those who are "better than average", don't normally bleat about it at the time - just accept it as part of the price of driving as they do....and quietly get on with driving quick, safe, but normally, not stupid

To many things - all idealistic - would cause to much disruption, outrage and cost too much, so carry on as usual.......

[Zedder]

agreed and is why the current zombie like attitude by the authorities is domed to fail. The slow drivers will just get slower. Speed is a relative thing and it is the difference in velocity between the two objects that cause the degree of mess. As the slow drivers will just become slower then the velocity difference will remain, add to that the drive offs caused by bored/wary drivers and crash rate doesn't change nor the death rate. Driver education and drivers taking responsibility is what is required. Death_inc is on the right track with the comments on policing dangerous, and I would include careless, driving, but that costs more.

But maybe if policing idiot driving was based on something like the threat of a crushed vehicle, like the hoon law, or heavier demerit points and loss of licence it might work. According to the Police Minister no cars have been crushed because boy racers are coming into line.

[Mad-V2]

Or what about giving out a licence too speed? sounds silly but if you encourage drivers to take a series of advanced driver training courses that need to be reviewed/re-sat annually, this could possibly improve driving in general.
What I mean is if you have a "licence to speed" you can travel up to a specified speed, around 130k's or so if the conditions allow it and traffic is very light.
But if you are caught doing these speeds in the wrong places, like built up areas/residential/busy motorways, you loose your right to travel at speed and have to resit your advanced training again.
My theory is, that when you constantly travel at a higher than normal speed, you improve your reaction time for when you slow down to normal speed (feels like walking speed) But when you travel at say 80 - 90 all day then suddenly speed up to 100, it feels quite allot faster than it normally would if you sat on 100 all day (hope that makes sense)
I think the prospect of being able to speed without consequence will get alot of people motivated to take the advanced driver training courses which should improve driving as a whole.
But THAT will never happen!!!! :lol:

[oneofsix]

But maybe if policing idiot driving was based on something like the threat of a crushed vehicle, like the hoon law, or heavier demerit points and loss of licence it might work. According to the Police Minister no cars have been crushed because boy racers are coming into line.

Policing idiot drivers involves putting them in front of judges, see the editorial in today's DomPost for comment on unbiased enforcement by judges (thanks crasher)

[Scuba_Steve]

Or what about giving out a licence too speed?

What about a licencing system that is more than "heres money" "Well I see you know how to keep your eyes off the road, heres your licence"

Maybee one where you had to prove you could drive, now that might be an idea... Don't see it taking off tho the Govt couldn't drive round then.

[steve_t]

Or what about giving out a licence too speed?

Refer to posts about 'speed differentials' :scooter:

[steve_t]

What about a licencing system that is more than "heres money" "Well I see you know how to keep your eyes off the road, heres your licence"



Eyes off the road? :blink: On the speedo? :laugh:

[Zedder]

Policing idiot drivers involves putting them in front of judges, see the editorial in today's DomPost for comment on unbiased enforcement by judges (thanks crasher)

Forget about judges, it doesn't have to be that way.

Cops could do it. No fines, only heavy demerits leading to loss of licence or vehicle crushing for idiot drivers.

Mind you it would probably lead to huge loss of revenue and everything else would go up.

[Mad-V2]

O.k so I understand that when speed increases, so does the risk of crashing.
But if you spend a month doing advanced driver training annually, your risk of crashing should decrease as you have more control of your driving and awareness.
Also these courses should be made very hard to pass, and if your caught doing the wrong thing on the road, the consequences should be very harsh.

[Scuba_Steve]

Eyes off the road? :blink: On the speedo? :laugh:
Speedo, mirrors (all 3 of them) etc...


O.k so I understand that when speed increases, so does the risk of crashing.


No when speed increases your injuries or chance or death increases, if you crash. NOT the risk of crashing, that decreases (in the real world)

I should put "sensible speed"

[James Deuce]

Yo. Mad-V2. Ask any Traffic Superintendent what he/she thinks of advanced driver training. He/She'll say, "Advanced driving training encourages drivers to take needless risks, causing accidents."

Not an argument you can present without being coated in righteous spittle.

[HenryDorsetCase]

yo. Mad-v2. Ask any traffic superintendent what he/she thinks of advanced driver training. He/she'll say, "advanced driving training encourages drivers to take needless risks, causing accidents."



o rly???????

[James Deuce]

o rly???????

Yes. Has been stated publicly more than once. Have posted sources before, including Fairfax and radio new Zealand. Am too lazy to go looking again.

[scumdog]

Yes. Has been stated publicly more than once. Have posted sources before, including Fairfax and radio new Zealand. Am too lazy to go looking again.


How long ago?
It's a bit of a:gob: to me.

[scumdog]

Wondered when this would arise so I've prepared a response.

NEVER LET THE FACTS GET IN THE WAY OF A GOOD WHINGE

9% of the tickets my section issued last year were for speed.

So there.

Whoa!

Makes me look like a right Road-Nazi with my 12%...:shutup:

[Scuba_Steve]

o rly???????


Yes. Has been stated publicly more than once. Have posted sources before, including Fairfax and radio new Zealand. Am too lazy to go looking again.

Yea I know the NZTA aint supporters of anything "advanced". They're excuse for being anti them is "if we teach people the skills to save their lives the boyracers are just going to go round doing donuts & drifts" despite the fact that they are going to do that regardless just without the skill. It's the old "if we don't talk about suicide they won't do it" thing :facepalm:

[swbarnett]

Wrote a rambling note about speeding tickets on another thread, then decided it was off topic so deleted it. It was the POP radar detector thread.

It caused me to ponder why it's such an emotive issue. Exceed the tolerance applied to the legal limit, get a ticket, isn't that just how the law works? Why so much grief about it?

Sheesh.
I'll bite.

1. Speeding (over the limit) is supposed to be unsafe - bollox (most of the time).

2. There is a belief that speeding (over the limit) is policed harder than other, arguably more dangerous, practices simply because it's easy. It can be numerically measured whereas, say, crossing the centreline on a blind corner is extremely hard to catch.

3. No harm, no foul. If noone is hurt, what's the issue? Sure, throw the book at someone "speeding" after it is proven to have caused a crash.

4. Why is someone that travels a lot held to a higher standard than someone that doesn't travel much. For example, my wife works from home and maybe does 10,000km per year. Therefore she has only 20,000km to rack up 100demerits before disqualification. I, however do about 30,000km per year so my ticket per km ratio has to be lower than hers to keep my license.

5. It has been shown more than once that accident levels drop when open-road speed limits are raised or removed entirely. What is enforced in the name of safety is actually counter-productive to that aim.

[Mad-V2]

Yea I know the NZTA aint supporters of anything "advanced". They're excuse for being anti them is "if we teach people the skills to save their lives the boyracers are just going to go round doing donuts & drifts" despite the fact that they are going to do that regardless just without the skill. It's the old "if we don't talk about suicide they won't do it" thing :facepalm:

Do you think if you added things like traffic accident scene videos, and visits from people who have suffered immensely from dangerous driving/drivers to the courses, that could be a deterrent to that sort of behaviour.

[Scuba_Steve]

Wondered when this would arise so I've prepared a response.

NEVER LET THE FACTS GET IN THE WAY OF A GOOD WHINGE

9% of the tickets my section issued last year were for speed.

So there.


Whoa!

Makes me look like a right Road-Nazi with my 12%...:shutup:

I hope you boys are still meeting your quotas tho, I'd hate to think you were missing out on donuts :innocent:

[george formby]

Wrote a rambling note about speeding tickets on another thread, then decided it was off topic so deleted it. It was the POP radar detector thread.

It caused me to ponder why it's such an emotive issue. Exceed the tolerance applied to the legal limit, get a ticket, isn't that just how the law works? Why so much grief about it?

Sheesh.

Pour moi, it's hesitating to use the overtaking lane to get past the slow driver you pulled recently (I think t'was you, applause) who has just put his foot down to 110 after travelling at 70kmh for the last 15k's. I don't want no ticket but often feel forced to drive at the pace of inconsiderate & usually inattentive drivers & feel vulnerable to their actions. This happened to me yesterday & the only overtaking opportunity's I had often have a mobile ready & waiting. Soooo, on a lovely day, dry road, my speed was between 50 & 80kmh for 35 minutes behind a driver crossing the white line & hitting the verge because they were using a mobile phone & constantly rabbiting to their passenger. :angry:
I would be most dis-chuffed getting pinged for putting my safety first if ticketed for overtaking a numpty.:facepalm:
I have no beef with the law or it's enforcement but it is not making better road users. Gripe. Done.:shutup:

By the same token, you speed habitually, you get caught, tough. Save it for the track.:violin:

[scumdog]

I'll bite.

1. Speeding (over the limit) is supposed to be unsafe - bollox (most of the time).
.

Sadly some people have NO idea about when it is saf/unsafe to go fast, as such the ptb decided that should they crash it better they do so at a lower speed to minimize the damage..

So the rest of us pay for their incompetence by having a speed limit to adhere to (mostly).

Make the drivers licence test a real test - and make people pay for training to be able to pass the test which will not have a 'scratchie' component, fail the test and you go 'down the snake' to start training again.

Then raise the speed limit a little in appropriate areas i.e. 125 on motorways etc.

And make it so the fines for speeding are minimal but up the demerits just a tad.

Then have it that if you exceed the 100 demerits within a year you have to start at scratch and redo your licence from the start again - training and everything.

And the Govt gets the take from training rather than tickets.

My little sort-of-almost-a-rant.

[Scuba_Steve]

Do you think if you added things like traffic accident scene videos, and visits from people who have suffered immensely from dangerous driving/drivers to the courses, that could be a deterrent to that sort of behaviour.

for some it would, but then you'd have the whole PC brigade with "you cant show them that". Others it would have no effect, after all no amount of "gruesome" accidents could talk me out of jumping on a bike, & the people they did try. "bikes are dangerous" I'm sure a few others here have had the same

[Scuba_Steve]

Sadly some people have NO idea about when it is saf/unsafe to go fast, as such the ptb decided that should they crash it better they do so at a lower speed to minimize the damage..

So the rest of us pay for their incompetence by having a speed limit to adhere to (mostly).

Make the drivers licence test a real test - and make people pay for training to be able to pass the test which will not have a 'scratchie' component, fail the test and you go 'down the snake' to start training again.

Then raise the speed limit a little in appropriate areas i.e. 125 on motorways etc.

And make it so the fines for speeding are minimal but up the demerits just a tad.

Then have it that if you exceed the 100 demerits within a year you have to start at scratch and redo your licence from the start again - training and everything.

And the Govt gets the take from training rather than tickets.

My little sort-of-almost-a-rant.

Still don't like it but it would be a fuckload better than we have now :yes:

[george formby]

Sadly some people have NO idea about when it is saf/unsafe to go fast, as such the ptb decided that should they crash it better they do so at a lower speed to minimize the damage..

So the rest of us pay for their incompetence by having a speed limit to adhere to (mostly).

Make the drivers licence test a real test - and make people pay for training to be able to pass the test which will not have a 'scratchie' component, fail the test and you go 'down the snake' to start training again.

Then raise the speed limit a little in appropriate areas i.e. 125 on motorways etc.

And make it so the fines for speeding are minimal but up the demerits just a tad.

Then have it that if you exceed the 100 demerits within a year you have to start at scratch and redo your licence from the start again - training and everything.

And the Govt gets the take from training rather than tickets.

My little sort-of-almost-a-rant.

That was my take on the propaganda too. Well said.

[Kickaha]

As far as seat belts and helmets.... IMO it should be the person's choice.

So long as they pay for their own hopitalisation and treatment if they crash that's fine by me, if I have to contribute to it then fuck them, leave them to die on the side of the road


Do you think if you added things like traffic accident scene videos, and visits from people who have suffered immensely from dangerous driving/drivers to the courses, that could be a deterrent to that sort of behaviour.

It wouldn't make any difference to most people after all "it'll never happen to me"

[Mad-V2]

.......
It wouldn't make any difference to most people after all "it'll never happen to me"

Agreed, and the "it'll never happen to me" mentallity will be reinforced as they have just aquired the tools to "keep safe"

As for increasing speed limits to everyone on the road....Dont read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limit)

[rastuscat]

yeah but your results are skewed because you're in the STG, right? or the guy that visits schools with the dog to keep kids off drugs? or in the DLA?

Nope. Team Leader, Road Policing Group. 9% of my teams tickets are speed. 91% are for the other stupid things people do in vehicles.

Disappointed? You;ll need to find another conclusion to jump to.

[rastuscat]

You're from rangiora.....so what's the percentage issued for no rego or warrant?

Surprisingly few, given the number of Valiants out here :)

[Berries]

It wouldn't make any difference to most people after all "it'll never happen to me"
And most people with that view would be right.

[scumdog]

And most people with that view would be right.


But when it does it can be Really Bad(tm).

And people rarely choose to have it happen to them.

Or welcome it.

So 'do you feel lucky punk, do you?'

[rastuscat]

No when speed increases your injuries or chance or death increases, if you crash. NOT the risk of crashing, that decreases (in the real world)

Thats the point. I wrote that days ago. The bit about your risk of injury or death increasing IF YOU CRASH.

No matter who causes a crash, the faster one party is going, the greater kinetic energy is imparted i.e. the bigger the mess.

If we could guarantee that crashes weren't going to happen, raising the speed limit would be easy. But we can't.

We don't live in a Utopian world of drivers who will see the bike coming ALL THE TIME, roads that NEVER HAVE GRAVEL ON THE PERFECT CORNERING LINE, any of those cool things.

Skoober Steve, good that we agree on that then.

[Gearup]

Nope. Team Leader, Road Policing Group. 9% of my teams tickets are speed. 91% are for the other stupid things people do in vehicles.

Disappointed? You;ll need to find another conclusion to jump to.

Nice shot of your rear number plate on the "Collected some revenue thread" R, I'll give you a toot and wave next time I see you.

[Edbear]

Do you think if you added things like traffic accident scene videos, and visits from people who have suffered immensely from dangerous driving/drivers to the courses, that could be a deterrent to that sort of behaviour.

A Defensive Driving Course should be mandatory! I did one back in '76 and it's stayed with me all my life.


Sadly some people have NO idea about when it is saf/unsafe to go fast, as such the ptb decided that should they crash it better they do so at a lower speed to minimize the damage..

So the rest of us pay for their incompetence by having a speed limit to adhere to (mostly).

Make the drivers licence test a real test - and make people pay for training to be able to pass the test which will not have a 'scratchie' component, fail the test and you go 'down the snake' to start training again.

Then raise the speed limit a little in appropriate areas i.e. 125 on motorways etc.

And make it so the fines for speeding are minimal but up the demerits just a tad.

Then have it that if you exceed the 100 demerits within a year you have to start at scratch and redo your licence from the start again - training and everything.

And the Govt gets the take from training rather than tickets.

My little sort-of-almost-a-rant.

Will you please stop being so sensible? It's bad for the rep of KB... :D


But when it does it can be Really Bad(tm).

And people rarely choose to have it happen to them.

Or welcome it.

So 'do you feel lucky punk, do you?'

Trust me, I know it! And it happened to me as a careful and experienced driver doing everything right at low speed. So if you're doing even one thing wrong, it can so easily happen to you as well! :yes:

[swbarnett]

Sadly some people have NO idea about when it is saf/unsafe to go fast, as such the ptb decided that should they crash it better they do so at a lower speed to minimize the damage..
I though I left this sort of nonsence at school. It's no better than "Johnny's been bad so the whole class get's detention."

I think you'll find that in all areas of life you will generally get what you expect. Treat drivers like they can't drive and you'll be proven right. It is also true that if you treat drivers as if they can drive you will still be proven right.

[scumdog]

I though I left this sort of nonsence at school. It's no better than "Johnny's been bad so the whole class get's detention."


In case you hadn't noticed:
That's what life is like.

Because some people are badly affected by alcohol with a breath reading of 400+ then I am not allowed to drive with similar lvels - even if I'm not as affected.

Because David Gray went mad with a AK47 clone and killed people with it I can't go into a gun-shop and buy one.

Because a few people are incompetent when it comes to keeping an eye on their toddlers when near a swimming pool all swimming pools have to be fenced

Because.....yadda-yadda-yadda


Nice troll.!

[FJRider]

... It is also true that if you treat drivers as if they can drive you will still be proven right.

They treat drivers as if they are idiots ... and too many times ... they are proven right. !!!

Most of the Highway patrol officers I've spoken to ... say tickets given for speed are by far outnumbered by tickets for stupid stuff that one officer said "SOME ...you would have to see to believe ..."

Even average driver skill levels would need to be SEEN to inprove considerably ... before any speed limits be raised ...

[DEATH_INC.]

Nope. Team Leader, Road Policing Group. 9% of my teams tickets are speed. 91% are for the other stupid things people do in vehicles.

I'll ask again, do you have access to the national figures?
I'm genuinely interested.

[oneofsix]

They treat drivers as if they are idiots ... and too many times ... they are proven right. !!!

Most of the Highway patrol officers I've spoken to ... say tickets given for speed are by far outnumbered by tickets for stupid stuff that one officer said "SOME ...you would have to see to believe ..."

Even average driver skill levels would need to be SEEN to inprove considerably ... before any speed limits be raised ...

But your last sentence alludes to the issue there, and this thread also. The publicity and therefore public perception is that it is all down to speed. 'Speed Kills' etc etc. When, as you say, it is bad driving and excessive speed is just an aspect of the bad driving. Get rid of the speed cameras, which are only affective in places and situations were speed is less likely to be dangerous as the cameras require a clear line of sight with no other vehicles in the field, replace them with a sought of specialized trained group of traffic offence recorders (people that is), perhaps armed with video cameras.

[Maha]

I'll ask again, do you have access to the national figures?
I'm genuinely interested.

..they probably need to be updated :innocent:

[oneofsix]

They treat drivers as if they are idiots ... .

really? spot the cop treating the drivers like idiots in the following;


Motorists have for years been driving the wrong way onto the Waikato Expressway off-ramp where two women were killed, say local residents.

And Waikato's top roading police officer says the smash is a reminder to motorists to be vigilant as scores of overseas tourists take to Kiwi roads ahead of the Rugby World Cup.

In case you missed it, the people that got the turn wrong were locals, not RWC visitors. Other locals report that people have been getting the turn wrong for years, you think there might be a roading issue here and not a policing one? I suspect being octogenarians once they had got the turn wrong they were confused and didn't react as a younger or more confident person might but that is conjecture.
:angry:

[FJRider]

..... The publicity and therefore public perception is that it is all down to speed. 'Speed Kills' etc etc. When, as you say, it is bad driving and excessive speed is just an aspect of the bad driving.

If speed AND stupidity kills ... lets just lock up the STUPID people ... mmmm might work ... :innocent:


... replace them with a sought of specialized trained group of traffic offence recorders (people that is), perhaps armed with video cameras.

Video cameras in the patrol cars ... ??? :corn:

[rastuscat]

.......... replace them with a sought (sic) of specialized trained group of traffic offence recorders (people that is), perhaps armed with video cameras.

You rang, M'Lud?

[Berries]

replace them with a sought of specialized trained group of traffic offence recorders (people that is.
And we could call them the Highway Patrol.

[Berg]

3 words. Lowest Common Denominator.
We need to have a limit that encompasses all levels of driving ability. I'm always depressed when they remove my favorite corners from roads like the Rimatakas etc but I also understand that they are catering to drivers who do not enjoy courners as much as I do.
Then you have the people who if there was a 150kph speed limit, would still argue "revenue collecting" etc if they got plucked at 160kph.
My "speed ticket" count is only 6% but my "insecure load" (you know, all that shit that fall off trucks and trailers in front of motorcycles) is almost 10%. Go figure.

[Eyegasm]

It's all about perspective.

If I add up all the kms I have done over the speed limit then divide the bill by that number, it aint that expensive.

I speed alot more than any other member of my family. Yet, in the last year

Mother: $200+
Father: $100+
Brother: $400+
Me: $0

Why? cos I do not speed in places that I would expect to see the popo! Like motorways!

[oneofsix]

3 words. Lowest Common Denominator.
We need to have a limit that encompasses all levels of driving ability. I'm always depressed when they remove my favorite corners from roads like the Rimatakas etc but I also understand that they are catering to drivers who do not enjoy courners as much as I do.
Then you have the people who if there was a 150kph speed limit, would still argue "revenue collecting" etc if they got plucked at 160kph.
My "speed ticket" count is only 6% but my "insecure load" (you know, all that shit that fall off trucks and trailers in front of motorcycles) is almost 10%. Go figure.

BS the limit is the maximum permitted speed for that section of road, not a target as they say, (another BS slogan) if corner, weather, ability or other circumstances mean you are not able to due the limit you don't have t0o but don't hold up others. It is not a lowest common denominator thing or we will all have to drive at learner driver or 90 year old speeds and style.

[jellywrestler]

Wondered when this would arise so I've prepared a response.

NEVER LET THE FACTS GET IN THE WAY OF A GOOD WHINGE

9% of the tickets my section issued last year were for speed.

So there.
Very interesting, any chance of a breakdown on the other 91%.

I ask this with real interest as I beleive it is an easy offence to ticket and follow through with a conviction given the machine used to do it and that is hard to fight with. This alone would mean it so tempting for it to be leaned on to do the bulk of the work...

[jellywrestler]

Speedo, mirrors (all 3 of them) etc...




you must ride a gold wing eh?

[oneofsix]

you must ride a gold wing eh?

didn't think even Goldwings had 3 mirrors :innocent:

[jellywrestler]

Because David Gray went mad with a AK47 clone and killed people with it I can't go into a gun-shop and buy one.

That's cause his Mother asked him 'To just shoot up town and get a loaf of bread' I thought, and he never came home with the bread...

[Scuba_Steve]

you must ride a gold wing eh?

Nah still waiting on you delivering it :wait:

[swbarnett]

In case you hadn't noticed:
That's what life is like.

...

Nice troll.!
No troll. It might be what it's like but that doesn't mean it has to be.

It's society being too lazy to put in the hard yards and treat every case on it's individual merits.

It's also because people seem to be stupid enough to think that they have a right to a completely safe life at my expence. Even when what I'm doing in no way detracts from their safety.

Taken to it's logical end we won't be allowed to ride because some riders can't ride responsibly. That's just not right!

[swbarnett]

They treat drivers as if they are idiots ... and too many times ... they are proven right. !!!
Please re-read the entire post and keep the two statements in context.

[Jantar]

Very interesting, any chance of a breakdown on the other 91%.

......

This raises an interesting point which may go some way to answering RC's initial question. RC claims that only 9% of the tickets he issues are for speeding. SD claims 12%, I'm sure other LEOs on here will have similar numbers. But lets ask motorcyclists what percentage of the tickets they receive are for speeding and I think we'll find its a much higher number. Maybe so high that motorcyclists feel they are being unfairly targeted for this single offence.

I might just start a poll to see if there is a bias.

[Usarka]

As far as seat belts and helmets.... IMO it should be the person's choice. I WOULD ALWAYS wear my lid and my seat belt, but I think the person should decided.


So long as they pay for their own hopitalisation and treatment if they crash that's fine by me, if I have to contribute to it then fuck them, leave them to die on the side of the road


You might find that there are more injury accidents requiring hospitalisation and ACC compo because of seatbelts rather than people just getting killed.

[rastuscat]

This raises an interesting point which may go some way to answering RC's initial question. RC claims that only 9% of the tickets he issues are for speeding..

Nope. The 9% figure is for my entire section of 8 staff plus me.

Just to clarify.

[steve_t]

Nope. The 9% figure is for my entire section of 8 staff plus me.

Just to clarify.

Can we get that breakdown of the other 91% please?

[Oblivion]

I remember when the Police slogan was "The faster you go the bigger the mess"

That statement is true. The faster you go, the more energy you have. Thus when you crash, more energy is exerted on your body.

However, the current police slogan is speeding kills.

This statement is false. Ask anyone. They will most likely agree. The reasoning behind this is that, the "statistics" have correlated that there is causality between speeding and crashes. So they have changed their focus from Discouraging speeding, to playing it as the ultimate villan.

I have no problem with speeding. However, only if it is selective speeding. ie; Right place right time. However, (I will pick on the boyracers here ) Most twats in their perfomance scrap piles, cannot differentiate between right time, and impressing people by going beyond their ability as a driver. All they care about is the adrenaline rush they get while speeding. But the guy who goes 130kmph going along the Foxton straight get punished because its the law. :facepalm:

There are the people who need to be punished. The Police are getting it wrong, and are using their own discretion to punish Mr Joe Public for going 104kmph. The reason that people are dieing on our roads is because of a lack of driver training. Not beauase they sped on a straight stretch of road.

Rectify this, and alot less people will die.

[Ocean1]

Maybe so high that motorcyclists feel they are being unfairly targeted for this single offence.

I might just start a poll to see if there is a bias.

Now that'd be interesting. For me it'd be half a dozen speed related pings, one bogus failure to come to a complete stop and a genuinely richeous cop on a failure to display registration, (unloading trials bike from trailer on roadside).

So yeah, all hard core nitpickery.

[Parlane]

and a genuinely richeous cop on a failure to display registration, (unloading trials bike from trailer on roadside).


WTF!? Please tell me you fought that!

[scumdog]

Can we get that breakdown of the other 91% please?


Can't speak for r.c. but my 'non-speed' ones include:

Bald tyres,
No WOFS, (some get compliance - no revenue gathered)
Non functional head/brake/tail lights (all get compliance - no revenue gathered.)
Not wearing seatbelts
Learner drivers breaching their licenc conditions by carrying passengers.
Failing to stop at stop-signs.
Multi tickets to shit-heads with shit attitude and shit (dangerous) cars (seat not bolted down,no springs, cracked windscreen, no inside door-handles etc etc all on the one car)
Yadda-yadda-yadda

[scumdog]

I remember when the Police slogan was "The faster you go the bigger the mess"



Ha-ha, I use that one: "Well if you hadn't been driving so fast I wouldn't have stopped you and then I wouldn't have discovered you have 125 demerits, no WOF and have that bald tyre - so it's true, -the faster you go the bigger the mess"

Normal response "Eh?"
Rare response: "Yeah. you're right eh"

[pzkpfw]

... Multi tickets to shit-heads with shit attitude and shit (dangerous) cars (seat not bolted down,no springs, cracked windscreen, no inside door-handles etc etc all on the one car) ...

I think I'd be in favour of a little "brutality" at that point.


(But of course, where does the line get drawn?...)

[steve_t]

Can't speak for r.c. but my 'non-speed' ones include:

Bald tyres,
No WOFS, (some get compliance - no revenue gathered)
Non functional head/brake/tail lights (all get compliance - no revenue gathered.)
Not wearing seatbelts
Learner drivers breaching their licenc conditions by carrying passengers.
Failing to stop at stop-signs.
Multi tickets to shit-heads with shit attitude and shit (dangerous) cars (seat not bolted down,no springs, cracked windscreen, no inside door-handles etc etc all on the one car)
Yadda-yadda-yadda

Most of those seem fair enough. A few of them must either come from checkpoints or routine stops. Do you guys do many 'routine stops' just to check for stuff?

If those things actually make up 91% of your tickets, then you guys are doing alright in my book... not that you really care what I think :laugh:

[Ocean1]

WTF!? Please tell me you fought that!

Would have cost too much time.

I did remember the officer's name, though.

16 years later he applied for a job...

[Mad-V2]

This raises an interesting point which may go some way to answering RC's initial question. RC claims that only 9% of the tickets he issues are for speeding. SD claims 12%, I'm sure other LEOs on here will have similar numbers. But lets ask motorcyclists what percentage of the tickets they receive are for speeding and I think we'll find its a much higher number. Maybe so high that motorcyclists feel they are being unfairly targeted for this single offence.

I might just start a poll to see if there is a bias.



I had a very high fines tally way back when (Very high), but I've been up to date and fines free for more than a few years now.
Mine were probably 20% speeding and the rest were reg/warrant, wrong class of licence, one reckless driving after slipping on diesel, and drink driving (sorry about that one).
The one that really pisses me off now is when I was between 13 and 18 I got alot of wrong class of licence at $400 a pop. Now that price has dropped by half, can I have a refund please?
But these days the only reason I'd get stopped on the bike is at a random check point, or if I was speeding.

Note: I'm not complaining about the tickets, I'm just sharing my experience.

[rastuscat]

I'll delight you all with the 91% breakdown when I get back to work on Sunday. I don't keep the figures at home, I'm busy having a life.

Re faster you go the bigger the mess..............that used to be the message.

Then TPTB realised that most people don't think a crash is going to happen to them, so they don't think their speed is mess related.

So, the message changed to the faster you go the bigger the risk. This addressed the fact that most people won't actually crash, but those who do need to be going slower, and the only way you can guarantee a slower crash is for the whole propulation to slow down.

Subtle change, but a change never the less.

I've always been keen on 'the faster you go the better your chances of being first at the donut sale'. Suggested it a couple of times, never really got off the ground.

I even tried 'the faster you go the closer you are to a small african animal with long toenails', but it appears to be too complex.

Harumph.

[rastuscat]

I had a very high fines tally way back when (Very high), but I've been up to date and fines free for more than a few years now.
Mine were probably 20% speeding and the rest were reg/warrant, wrong class of licence, one reckless driving after slipping on diesel, and drink driving (sorry about that one).
The one that really pisses me off now is when I was between 13 and 18 I got alot of wrong class of licence at $400 a pop. Now that price has dropped by half, can I have a refund please?
But these days the only reason I'd get stopped on the bike is at a random check point, or if I was speeding.

Note: I'm not complaining about the tickets, I'm just sharing my experience.

I'll refund the $300 for each breach of licence conditions ticket you got, but only if you suck up the extra demerit points that are now there. It's gone from 25 to 35, so now it takes 3 such tickets to get a 3 month walk, instead of 4.

Good on ya for not bitching, BTW.

[steve_t]

I even tried 'the faster you go the closer you are to a small african animal with long toenails', but it appears to be too complex.

Harumph.

:blink::blink:

[Scuba_Steve]

I remember when the Police slogan was "The faster you go the bigger the mess"

That statement is true. The faster you go, the more energy you have. Thus when you crash, more energy is exerted on your body.

However, the current police slogan is speeding kills.

This statement is false. Ask anyone. They will most likely agree. The reasoning behind this is that, the "statistics" have correlated that there is causality between speeding and crashes. So they have changed their focus from Discouraging speeding, to playing it as the ultimate villan.

They stopped using "the faster you go the bigger the mess" because one of those old people with nothing better to do than complain, did just that & as it was blatant false advertising it was upheld & thus they cannot use it. Now if only the would complain about the "speed kills" message too as, as you say that too if false advertising, jet pilots alone prove this... unless they're talking about the drug then they might be right but their ads might be misleading.

[steve_t]

They stopped using "the faster you go the bigger the mess" because one of those old people with nothing better to do than complain, did just that & as it was blatant false advertising it was upheld & thus they cannot use it.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Owl]

I'm busy having a life.

No you're not, you're on KB!:shutup:

[rastuscat]

No you're not, you're on KB!:shutup:

Oooooooooooo......................got me...............:facepalm:

[rastuscat]

NOTICE TO ALL

Those referring to me as RC kindly desist.

If I was truly arsey I'd be dishing out more than 9% of my total as speeding tickets.

Tee hee

[Parlane]

NOTICE TO ALL

Those referring to me as RC kindly desist.

If I was truly arsey I'd be dishing out more than 9% of my total as speeding tickets.

Tee hee

I'm curious.. RC... I have a feeling they are your initials now that you say you don't want people referring to you as RC.

[Kickaha]

Those referring to me as RC kindly desist.


Awwwwwww do you need a hug? or maybe just more donuts

[Mad-V2]

I'll refund the $300 for each breach of licence conditions ticket you got, but only if you suck up the extra demerit points that are now there. It's gone from 25 to 35, so now it takes 3 such tickets to get a 3 month walk, instead of 4.

Good on ya for not bitching, BTW.

Your on! I could get a new bike for that amount.......I just couldn't ride it for another couple of years.

As for bitching, I don't normally bitch when I'm pulled over. I will know what I've done wrong and will pull over as soon as its safe.
Except if the coppa comes at me with his God complex on, shining his almighty powers of the law in my face (actually haven't stuck one of these in a while).
Then I'll be one of those argumentative types you speak of, just to screw up his day a bit. I deal with pricks who hate being held up n a daily basis, and cop abuse for maintaining the roads they're driving on, but it's just a job and I don't let it get to me.
Leave the preaching for the congregation and the job will be done before ya know it.

[scumdog]

Then I'll be one of those argumentative types you speak of, just to screw up his day a bit.

Ah, hate to break it to you but if the cop remembers your rant for more than five minutes it will be to tell his mates around the coffe&donuts and they all fall about laughing about it...:yes:

[rastuscat]

Ah, hate to break it to you but if the cop remembers your rant for more than five minutes it will be to tell his mates around the coffe&donuts and they all fall about laughing about it...:yes:

Scummie !! Ssssshhhhhhhhhhhh......................let them think we listen..........

[st00ji]

teach people how to actually drive, not just what the road rules are.

get rid of stationary cameras.

would probably make me happy.

i'll trust our police force to enforce the law to the spirit rather than the letter, mad as that might sound to many here. someones gotta do it eh.

[Usarka]

Ah, hate to break it to you but if the cop remembers your rant for more than five minutes it will be to tell his mates around the coffe&donuts and they all fall about laughing about it...:yes:

That's disrespectful and police should not be laughing at innocent civilians behind their backs. I'm going to lay a complaint and I want your badge number.

[scumdog]

That's disrespectful and police should not be laughing at innocent civilians behind their backs. I'm going to lay a complaint and I want your badge number.


Or it will go international??

:rofl::clap:

[DEATH_INC.]

This thread is missing pics...246475

[Usarka]

Or it will go international??

:rofl::clap:

Ban Ki Moon is in town - it's going to the UN!

[Jack Miller]

We spend huge ammounts of money to build our state highways with a design speed of 120 kmh. The design speed is a function of width of lane, width of shoulder, curve design etc

Its also the speed that 85% of the travelling population will wnat to use for that road

Then we arbitrarily restrict them to 100kmh

So we are

A: wasting our money building flash roads

and

B: annoying the hell out of people when they get ticketed for using the road the way it was inteneded

And it's also a disgusting greedy arrogant waste when Cops issue tickets in passing lanes.

[Berg]

246478246479
These are the sort of things I deal with.
Yep, that seat is just sitting up there just waiting to fall on an unsuspecting biker along with all the crap in the white car.
Anybody think cops still just target speeders?

[Jack Miller]

Wondered when this would arise so I've prepared a response.

NEVER LET THE FACTS GET IN THE WAY OF A GOOD WHINGE

9% of the tickets my section issued last year were for speed.

So there.

Caught you Rastuscat you disingenuous bastard. You are trying to convince this forum that speeding tickets are not a significant part of police enforcing by reference to your unit. However, I remember the post in which you told us your's was a special unit with a different focus.

This thread is about why people hate speeding tickets i.e.; all 750000 speeding tickets issued per year, not just those issued by you.

[Scuba_Steve]

246478246479
These are the sort of things I deal with.
Yep, that seat is just sitting up there just waiting to fall on an unsuspecting biker along with all the crap in the white car.
Anybody think cops still just target speeders?

to be honest with you I don't see those cars posing too much of a threat, they don't look like they could get very far :shutup:

[Jack Miller]

But handing out fines is a far easier and cheaper way to "train" people.

Except that it doesn't work.

Firstly; it doesn't slow them down. Police ticket-issuance peaked at 875000 tickets in 2004 then declined to 675000 in 2007. If handing out fines trained people to slow down then handing out less fines should see speeds staying the same or increasing. In fact, the average and top 15% open road speeds dropped from 104/118 respectively in 2004 to 102/116. Fewer tickets and less speeding. Obviously issuing tickets has nothing to do with driver speeds.

Secondly; it trains them to drive unsafely. Here are a couple of examples: It creates complacency (if I'm doing 95 I'm safe); It causes people to overtake slowly.

[oneofsix]

Except that it doesn't work.

Firstly; it doesn't slow them down. Police ticket-issuance peaked at 875000 tickets in 2004 then declined to 675000 in 2007. If handing out fines trained people to slow down then handing out less fines should see speeds staying the same or increasing. In fact, the average and top 15% open road speeds dropped from 104/118 respectively in 2004 to 102/116. Fewer tickets and less speeding. Obviously issuing tickets has nothing to do with driver speeds.

Secondly; it trains them to drive unsafely. Here are a couple of examples: It creates complacency (if I'm doing 95 I'm safe); It causes people to overtake slowly.

Interesting stats

You missed the two biggies IMO. It causes them to watch their speedo and ignore traffic flow and the second is the sudden slowing when they spot what could be a cop or camera (even when approaching known camera haunts).

[4AGE]

to be honest with you I don't see those cars posing too much of a threat, they don't look like they could get very far :shutup:
Sarcasm is hard to interpret online, but i think its on a trailer?

[Scuba_Steve]

Sarcasm is hard to interpret online, but i think its on a trailer?

ah yes you could be right, there does appear to be a metal looking thing under the bottom car in 1 of the photos... well in that case, carry on :yes:

Maybee it's the mobile pick-a-part :lol:

[Jack Miller]

Most of the Highway patrol officers I've spoken to ... say tickets given for speed are by far outnumbered by tickets for stupid stuff

So even HP officers admit exceeding the speed limit isn't stupid, like the other stuff people do, which is.

[Berg]

to be honest with you I don't see those cars posing too much of a threat, they don't look like they could get very far :shutup:

Would you want to follow that on your bike?:shit:

[Jack Miller]

It's all about perspective.

If I add up all the kms I have done over the speed limit then divide the bill by that number, it aint that expensive.

I speed alot more than any other member of my family. Yet, in the last year

Mother: $200+
Father: $100+
Brother: $400+
Me: $0

Why? cos I do not speed in places that I would expect to see the popo! Like motorways!

Pity the "safest" (ticket avoidance) places to speed are not the safest places to speed.

[Jack Miller]

They stopped using "the faster you go the bigger the mess" because one of those old people with nothing better to do than complain, did just that & as it was blatant false advertising it was upheld & thus they cannot use it. Now if only the would complain about the "speed kills" message too as, as you say that too if false advertising, jet pilots alone prove this... unless they're talking about the drug then they might be right but their ads might be misleading.

"The faster you go the sooner you get there" is considerably more truthful and accurate.

[skippa1]

is this not really about the application of the law as opposed to issuing speeding tickets? Whilst I speed, I like speeding in some circumstances and I dont want a ticket, I accept that there has to be a limit and that in some circumstances a cop will apply discretion and some not. Last year on the cantubury plains I followed a cop (Highway Patrol) at a constant 125kmh. When we got to a passing lane, he waved me on, as I passed him I was doing 135, I pulled in in front of him and slowed back to 125ish. He didnt do anything except disappear in my mirrors as I slowly pulled away from him. Same when leaving Hokitika for Greymouth, cop accelerated out of the 70kmh zone straight up to 130 then settled to 120-125 all the way to Greymouth. I gassed up, pulled back onto the road and he was sitting in a 50kmh zone issuing a ticket.
The issue for me is that they set a standard that I measure all other cops by. So when I get pulled over doing 108, Im going to get a bit pissed about it.
I think this kind of behaviour sends mixed messages and confuses us poor ol bikers.

[Zedder]

to be honest with you I don't see those cars posing too much of a threat, they don't look like they could get very far :shutup:

This thread started out on the subject of speeding but has covered a wide range of driving issues which has been interesting and enlightening. It's been good to have a different perspective from Rtc.

Speeding appears to be the uppermost in drivers/riders minds.

Until the practice of fining speedsters is changed to something that works better I think we're always going to have the angst because no one likes to get caught and pay out money. The same could be probably said for any traffic offence though.

I freely admit to driving/riding better than I used to, but I'd say it's also a combination of a number of factors (experience, age, having a family etc) and not only about being fined as such although it does play a part.

[Parlane]

"The faster you go the sooner you get there" is considerably more truthful and accurate.


Unless you are later than usual for work, so you think it's a great idea to go "109" in a 70k zone..

And.. bang! Cop around the corner :(

Lets me know that I was 1k off losing my licence on the spot.
$400 fine later, and I'm late for work. :facepalm: Goodbye 3 weeks of work pay. :facepalm:

What you actually want to hear:

I'm slower than I use to be. I use to have a starlet, and that thing was a tiny 2 door hatchback. Zoomed between cars on the highway etc. Once I hit 90 demerits I slowed right down. It was the fear of losing my licence that chnaged my behaviour. And I believe I am a better driver because of it.

Money meant nothing to me, as I don't value life on wealth :\ I spend all the money I earn, and it's normally on junk food (tastes so good) and fun things like Bowling, Rock Climbing, etc.

But DEMERITS, FUCK! I need to get to work, I <del>need</del>want to get to friends houses etc. So 90 demerits works. But I would be annoyed with getting demerits for 105, or even 109 on a 100k stretch when I'm perfectly safe to me and others when doing so.

[DEATH_INC.]

I think this kind of behaviour sends mixed messages and confuses us poor ol bikers.
Yeh, I've been passed by a carload of 'em when I've been doing 120+ down the s/w motorway.....

[oneofsix]

This thread started out on the subject of speeding but has covered a wide range of driving issues which has been interesting and enlightening. It's been good to have a different perspective from Rtc.

Speeding appears to be the uppermost in drivers/riders minds.

Until the practice of fining speedsters is changed to something that works better I think we're always going to have the angst because no one likes to get caught and pay out money. The same could be probably said for any traffic offence though.

I freely admit to driving/riding better than I used to, but I'd say it's also a combination of a number of factors (experience, age, having a family etc) and not only about being fined as such although it does play a part.

Personally I have found that advanced driving and riding courses have done more to improve my driving or riding, guess I include learning from others even some of the more sensible comments on KB :shutup:.

[rastuscat]

Caught you Rastuscat you disingenuous bastard.


Not feeling the love just now Jack. Not sleep well?

[baptist]

Not read the whole thread but...


It's already been invented. It's an Isuzu Piazza. Owning one was conclusive proof of stupidity.

New area car maybe???:innocent:


For me it's because speeding is unavoidable. There isn't a person on this planet who hasn't sped at some point, or in fact speeds on a regular basis... and the best that the cop can come up with is "because it's illegal", is it really surprising I'd feel a little hard done by...


OK, I'll assume this is a genuine question and not a wind up.

Almost all traffic enforcement in New Zealand is aimed at road safety...those who will lie, cheat and do everything possible to get you to not write out a ticket. Unfortunately there are a few in the force (I've named one to SD and another senior police officer) who will also lie, cheat and do everything possible to keep their ticket number up...Does that explain the grief?

Couple of good points in there guys...


Funny, have been doing this job for 23 years, and the carping has never changed. Every day or so for that period I've been told it's been revenue collecting.

Maybe so but maybe it's because the Law is wrong and people have a genuine reason for feeling peeved...


Forget about judges, it doesn't have to be that way.
Cops could do it. No fines, only heavy demerits leading to loss of licence or vehicle crushing for idiot drivers. Mind you it would probably lead to huge loss of revenue and everything else would go up.

Not sure... firstly I think there are cowboy cops (I have met some both here and in the UK) and that power should not be handed to them... in fact some of them need sacking, secondly the good cops out there then get crap thrown at them for taking licences off of "us"... I think the penalty side of tickets needs to be kept away from the Police as much as possible, then maybe they will not get so much abuse every time a ticket is issued... maybe:innocent:


Whoa!

Makes me look like a right Road-Nazi with my 12%...:shutup:
Facist...:Police::spanking:

[rastuscat]

facist...:police::spanking:

how come he gets all the fun ?????????? Is it true that fascists get all da spanking???????????

[oneofsix]

how come he gets all the fun ?????????? Is it true that fascists get all da spanking???????????

you keep pulling over those slow drivers and they will spank you. The rest of us will thank you and as you seem to want a spanking :spanking:

[Edbear]

All said and done, it is an unarguable fact that the speed limit is by necessity an arbitrary one set by the TPTB after wide consultation as to what the best mean average speed should be that the majority of drivers may be capable of safely travelling at on NZ roads and according to the skill and ability of said drivers.

It is also plainly obvious to all that the skills and abilities of drivers in this country, as in all countries, varies very widely with some being dangerous and incompetent at any speed and others able to handle very high speeds. Since it is not feasible to have a variety of speed limits set according to individual driver's abilities, there must therfore be one speed for all road users, albeit there may be differences for set classes of vehicles.

We live in a society that has to cater and care for all equally as far as possible and the open road speed limit is set and enforced for a reason.

Therefore, unless you want to remove yourself from society and live on an island on your own somewhere you have to abide by the laws of the country you live in for the common good. Ergo, your decision to break the speed limits is a conscious one and you must be aware of and prepared to accept the consequences of doing so. The amount you are over is irrelevant save for determining the size of the punishment dished out. Every time you are pulled over for speeding or any other offence you are actually comitting it is a "fair cop" and you have no argument even if you think it's a bit unfair under the circumstances and conditions at the time. You were exceeding the speed limt and got caught doing so, very simple really.

I have never had a speeding ticket while riding a bike in the last 41years since first starting at the age of 12. Now, have I gone really, really fast on my bikes on the open road in that time or have I never exceeded the speed limit..? I've never had a radar detector and do not feel I need one.

Yes, it may not be nice to get a ticket, but you can only blame one person and that's the receiver of that ticket, no-one else.

[Jack Miller]

Unless you are later than usual for work, so you think it's a great idea to go "109" in a 70k zone..
And.. bang! Cop around the corner, ... and I'm late for work. :

Well yes, if you introduce something unnatural.

"Faster... bigger mess" and "Speed Kills" are proclaimed as fundamental, natural truths used to justify speed-limit enforcement, which is unnatural. However, "Faster... bigger mess" and "Speed Kills" are not true. Most exceders of the speed limit neither die nor have a big mess, they just get there sooner, and it is only the unnatural introduction of arbitrary speed-limit enforcement that changed this natural truth in your case.

[Jack Miller]

I accept that there has to be a limit and that in some circumstances a cop will apply discretion and some not. Last year on the cantubury plains I followed a cop (Highway Patrol) at a constant 125kmh. When we got to a passing lane, he waved me on, as I passed him I was doing 135, I pulled in in front of him and slowed back to 125ish. He didnt do anything except disappear in my mirrors as I slowly pulled away from him. Same when leaving Hokitika for Greymouth, cop accelerated out of the 70kmh zone straight up to 130 then settled to 120-125 all the way to Greymouth. I gassed up, pulled back onto the road and he was sitting in a 50kmh zone issuing a ticket.
The issue for me is that they set a standard that I measure all other cops by. So when I get pulled over doing 108, Im going to get a bit pissed about it.
I think this kind of behaviour sends mixed messages and confuses us poor ol bikers.
Yeah, it's bad enough that we have to defensively assume every other road user is a "lowest common denominator" driver without also having to ride assuming every crest, tree or sign hides a "lowest common denominator" enforcer.

[Zedder]

Yeah, it's bad enough that we have to defensively assume every other road user is a "lowest common denominator" driver without also having to ride assuming every crest, tree or sign hides a "lowest common denominator" enforcer.

The 'lowest common denominator" concept that underpins the traffic laws is actually an insult to intelligent law abiding citizens.

It's not something I like but that's the way it is at the moment.

How do we change it?

It starts with us. Like others have been saying, don't speed and do other unlawful acts. Who knows, some of the rules may change for the better due to our actions.

[Parlane]

The 'lowest common denominator" concept that underpins the traffic laws is actually an insult to intelligent law abiding citizens.

It's not something I like but that's the way it is at the moment.

How do we change it?

It starts with us. Like others have been saying, don't speed and do other unlawful acts. Who knows, some of the rules may change for the better due to our actions.

What's that? No one speeds? I guess that means we can bring the speed limits down further! That way, the crashes that are still happening at 90km/h, can happen at 80 km/h instead!

Fixed. :woohoo:

[swbarnett]

I remember when the Police slogan was "The faster you go the bigger the mess"

That statement is true.
Actually, the statement is false. What would be correct is "The faster you hit the bigger the mess".

[Jack Miller]

The 'lowest common denominator" concept that underpins the traffic laws is actually an insult to intelligent law abiding citizens.
It's not something I like but that's the way it is at the moment.
How do we change it?


We can't. The Popo's have to eliminate these low-lifers from the force. I suppose we could ask them to. Reckon they'll listen?

Hey rastuscat, it's already Police policy not to operate speed traps at the end of passing lanes but it still happens. I've got the tickets (& acquittals) to prove it. Reckon any one'd listen if we asked your bosses to enforce this policy and punish offending Popos?

[Zedder]

What's that? No one speeds? I guess that means we can bring the speed limits down further! That way, the crashes that are still happening at 90km/h, can happen at 80 km/h instead!

Fixed. :woohoo:

I wrote "changes for the better". Reducing the speed limit isn't a better change as studies have shown that decreasing the speed limit doesn't reduce crashes.

Do some research before commenting.

[Parlane]

I wrote "changes for the better". Reducing the speed limit isn't a better change as studies have shown that decreasing the speed limit doesn't reduce crashes.

Do some research before commenting.

I didn't realise I'd need an essay reply [with references] to your vague statement "changes for the better".

I was merely pointing out that they won't increase speed limits just because no one is speeding. That's like saying everyone can have icecream but only if you follow my no-icecream rule until I am satisfied that no one is wanting to break the rule! (Yes it's a stupid metaphor, but it's a quick one).

[Scuba_Steve]

I wrote "changes for the better". Reducing the speed limit isn't a better change as studies have shown that decreasing the speed limit doesn't reduce crashes.

Do some research before commenting.

that may not be better but its realist, if we all drove under the limit what he put is what would happen the Govt would just down the limits. Ya can't make the moneys is people are obeying stupid laws

[Ocean1]

The 'lowest common denominator" concept that underpins the traffic laws is actually an insult to intelligent law abiding citizens.

It's not something I like but that's the way it is at the moment.

Correct.


How do we change it?

It starts with us. Like others have been saying, don't speed and do other unlawful acts. Who knows, some of the rules may change for the better due to our actions.

That will change fuck all, never has and never will. To change odius legislation you need to a) ignore it and b) refues to recognise any penalties imposed for "a".

Which is why you're stuck with it, far too many are happy to give most of their decisions, (and lives) to the wee grey men.

[Zedder]

I didn't realise I'd need an essay reply [with references] to your vague statement "changes for the better".

I was merely pointing out that they won't increase speed limits just because no one is speeding. That's like saying everyone can have icecream but only if you follow my no-icecream rule until I am satisfied that no one is wanting to break the rule! (Yes it's a stupid metaphor, but it's a quick one).

I didn't write anything about the speed law, you did. I wrote that some laws (plural ) may change. As usual you were in a hurry to post something ("quick") and didn't think it through.

[Zedder]

that may not be better but its realist, if we all drove under the limit what he put is what would happen the Govt would just down the limits. Ya can't make the moneys is people are obeying stupid laws

But Scube, that the point they aren't likely to lower the speed limits because it doesn't reduce crashes.

[Parlane]

I didn't write anything about the speed law, you did. I wrote that some laws (plural ) may change. As usual you were in a hurry to post something ("quick") and didn't think it through.

Reread the thread title, and then you may see why I referred to the speed laws and not others.

[Scuba_Steve]

But Scube, that the point they aren't likely to lower the speed limits because it doesn't reduce crashes.

You think reducing crashes is the Govts point? It's all about the money, money, money just listen to Judith Collins, "revenue", "revenue", "revenue" & when "revenue is down" is it because after 10yrs the speed scam is starting to work? nope "technical difficulties with cameras". They know the propaganda they spew is total bullshit, they also know it's the easiest way to scam money from 'the people' due to the high amount of idiots willing to believe their propaganda, till enough people wise up we're stuck with it.

[Zedder]

Reread the thread title, and then you may see why I referred to the speed laws and not others.

Many of the traffic laws have been commented about on this thread not just speed.

[Zedder]

Correct.



That will change fuck all, never has and never will. To change odius legislation you need to a) ignore it and b) refues to recognise any penalties imposed for "a".

Which is why you're stuck with it, far too many are happy to give most of their decisions, (and lives) to the wee grey men.

I suppose it's about what you believe in at the end of the day.

[Parlane]

You think reducing crashes is the Govts point? It's all about the money, money, money just listen to Judith Collins, "revenue", "revenue", "revenue" & when "revenue is down" is it because after 10yrs the speed scam is starting to work? nope "technical difficulties with cameras". They know the propaganda they spew is total bullshit, they also know it's the easiest way to scam money from 'the people' due to the high amount of idiots willing to believe their propaganda, till enough people wise up we're stuck with it.

I'd rather pay more in taxes if I knew it meant they weren't setting up speed traps in places where 110km is safe (Not that any speed is safe anywhere).

To fund the loss in revenue of course!

But I don't totally agree that it is all propaganda.

[Scuba_Steve]

But I don't totally agree that it is all propaganda.

Maybee calling it "all propaganda." is a step too far, but u get what I mean it's definitely more about the money than it is about safety.

[Zedder]

You think reducing crashes is the Govts point? It's all about the money, money, money just listen to Judith Collins, "revenue", "revenue", "revenue" & when "revenue is down" is it because after 10yrs the speed scam is starting to work? nope "technical difficulties with cameras". They know the propaganda they spew is total bullshit, they also know it's the easiest way to scam money from 'the people' due to the high amount of idiots willing to believe their propaganda, till enough people wise up we're stuck with it.

I do believe it's about saving lives and making roads safe for the public to travel on. But it's also about things like the economy suffering dramatically if there was mayhem on the roads.

Extrapolating that out further, imagine if people wouldn't buy cars or motorbikes because it would be far too dangerous to use them on the roads.

[Parlane]

I do believe it's about saving lives and making roads safe for the public to travel on. But it's also about things like the economy suffering dramatically if there was mayhem on the roads.

Extrapolating that out further, imagine if people wouldn't buy cars or motorbikes because it would be far too dangerous to use them on the roads.

Invent teleportation.
Fixed.

[Zedder]

Invent teleportation.
Fixed.

But then there'd be no point in having a motorbike.

Speaking of which, I'm going for a ride now.

[Parlane]

But then there'd be no point in having a motorbike.

Speaking of which, I'm going for a ride now.

Empty abandoned "race tracks" that stretch around the country...

[Ocean1]

I suppose it's about what you believe in at the end of the day.

It is.

In this case it's a clear choice between self determination vs mindless conformity to a failed solution to a fabricated problem.

But feel free to choose.

[Zedder]

Empty abandoned "race tracks" that stretch around the country...

Right, after a bit of a blast around the countryside I'm ready for more discussion.

If the roads were abandoned they wouldn't be fit to ride on due to no money being spent on their upkeep.

[slofox]

Right, after a bit of a blast around the countryside I'm ready for more discussion.

If the roads were abandoned they wouldn't be fit to ride on due to no money being spent on their upkeep.

In which case we'd all have to buy adventure bikes.

[Parlane]

Right, after a bit of a blast around the countryside I'm ready for more discussion.

If the roads were abandoned they wouldn't be fit to ride on due to no money being spent on their upkeep.

Would last quite a while if it was only bikes allowed. It's the trucks that do the most damage.

Would have to keep ducatilover off the roads otherwise his wheelies will destroy em!

[Zedder]

It is.

In this case it's a clear choice between self determination vs mindless conformity to a failed solution to a fabricated problem.

But feel free to choose.

I take it you don't get fines or if you do you don't pay them.

[rastuscat]

In this case it's a clear choice between self determination vs mindless conformity to a failed solution to a fabricated problem.

Might I suggest a third option.

Accept that when operating a vehicle we are interacting with the rest of the road users out there, and we have a responsibility to not adversely effect their safety. Similarly, we reasonably expect the rest of the road users not to adversely effect our safety.

Works for me.

[scumdog]

Yeah, it's bad enough that we have to defensively assume every other road user is a "lowest common denominator" driver .

Well you'ld be a mug to credit them with a higher level of proficiency before they indicate proof of it.

Isn't the old motorcyclists mantra somehtig along the line of "Treat every other road user as an idiot out to kill you with their incompetence" or something similar???

[rastuscat]

This thread was started as I wanted to hear some views about why the speed thing is so forward in our thinking.

It seems because so many of us do it, and expect to have a right to do so. Justification after justification.

Thanks all for the thoughts. Negative or not, it's enlightening, and not entirely out of line with my own thinking.

Donuts.

[Zedder]

In which case we'd all have to buy adventure bikes.

But would there be a speed limit if the roads didn't officially exist?

[scumdog]

We can't. The Popo's have to eliminate these low-lifers from the force. I suppose we could ask them to. Reckon they'll listen?

Hey rastuscat, it's already Police policy not to operate speed traps at the end of passing lanes but it still happens. I've got the tickets (& acquittals) to prove it. Reckon any one'd listen if we asked your bosses to enforce this policy and punish offending Popos?


Hmm, how about naming and shaming all these low-lifers, I'd like to know who they are too.

Policy and law or not totally mutual -one is only a 'guide-line" eh!

So no, I doubt anybody will get 'punished' for not sticking with them.

[Zedder]

Would last quite a while if it was only bikes allowed. It's the trucks that do the most damage.

Would have to keep ducatilover off the roads otherwise his wheelies will destroy em!

But the trucks wouldn't exist.

[Jack Miller]

Well you'ld be a mug to credit them with a higher level of proficiency before they indicate proof of it.

Isn't the old motorcyclists mantra somehtig along the line of "Treat every other road user as an idiot out to kill you with their incompetence" or something similar???

Yes. And it vexes me further that the Police add to the problem!

[scumdog]

Yes. And it vexes me further that the Police add to the problem!

Only for you.

never had a problem myself.:blah:

[Jantar]

This thread was started as I wanted to hear some views about why the speed thing is so forward in our thinking.

It seems because so many of us do it, and expect to have a right to do so. Justification after justification.

Thanks all for the thoughts. Negative or not, it's enlightening, and not entirely out of line with my own thinking.

Donuts.

Not so much that we expect to have a right to do so, but more that it can sometimes be safe to do so.

[DrunkenMistake]

Well you'ld be a mug to credit them with a higher level of proficiency before they indicate proof of it.

Isn't the old motorcyclists mantra somehtig along the line of "Treat every other road user as an idiot out to kill you with their incompetence" or something similar???

Really?
I thought it was just my neighbor..:facepalm:


Only for you.

never had a problem myself.:blah:

I smell bacon, I smell pork,
Run little piggy, I have a fork!

Nah im just joking scummy.
But seriously.

[Jack Miller]

This thread was started as I wanted to hear some views about why the speed thing is so forward in our thinking.

It seems because so many of us do it, and expect to have a right to do so. Justification after justification.

Thanks all for the thoughts. Negative or not, it's enlightening, and not entirely out of line with my own thinking.

Donuts.
Closed mind eh Rastuscat? The responses gave PLENTY of good reasons different to your thinking but they're simply not getting through to you. I was tempted to take the time to summarise them for you but realise it'd be a waste of time. You're blind to any thinking different to yours. A Cantaburyian Rozza, what else should we have expected.

[Jantar]

Closed mind eh Rastuscat? The responses gave PLENTY of good reasons different to your thinking but they're simply not getting through to you. I was tempted to take the time to summarise them for you but realise it'd be a waste of time. You're blind to any thinking different to yours. A Cantaburyian Rozza, what else should we have expected.

Jack, read RastusCat's reply again. Most responses were not entirely out of line with his own thinking. IOW he generally agrees.

[scumdog]

Closed mind eh Rastuscat? The responses gave PLENTY of good reasons different to your thinking but they're simply not getting through to you. I was tempted to take the time to summarise them for you but realise it'd be a waste of time. You're blind to any thinking different to yours. A Cantaburyian Rozza, what else should we have expected.

Ah stop trolling - WE know you're really the Distrct Commander in Hamilton sir.:shutup:

(Or stop jousting at windmills if you're not!):wings:

People would really take you more seriously 'Jack' if you weren't so much of a myopic ranter.

[FJRider]

So even HP officers admit exceeding the speed limit isn't stupid, like the other stuff people do, which is.

I never said that ... speeding is very serious ... :yes:

AND expensive (well it can be)

[rastuscat]

Closed mind eh Rastuscat? The responses gave PLENTY of good reasons different to your thinking but they're simply not getting through to you.

Not at all Jacko. Here's some history.

Back when I started we were issued with a ticket book, a patrol bike and some fairly ridiculous riding jodhpurs. The leather jacket was cool. We had to learn the road craft, and were totally immersed in traffic legislation and traffic movement. One of my mates (also a bike cop) bought a CBR1000RRRRRRRRRR, and lost his life in Mairangi Bay going too fast for a corner.

We had things called Tru-Velo and Digitector, and did occasional speed ops. The car drivers did more speed than the bike riders, coz bikes didn't have radars. Still, each car driver had done his time on bikes, so knew the road craft.

Time went by, and the KR10 gave way to the HAWK, then to the Eagle (Silver and Gold versions), then the Stalkers. Bikes disappeared, and it came to be that when you started in traffic enforcement, you learned how to use the radar that was in every car and it became your default setting. A bike rider lived on seatbelt tickets, and dealt with anything else that came along. A car driver lives on speed, and deals with anything else that comes along, to a greater or lesser degree.

I encourage my guys to focus on the other things, as I think there is sufficient focus on speed without our help.

Having said that, speed enforcement overlaps with what we do. I don't want folk driving through my intersections at speed, as when my other focus folk make the critical error of failing to give way, the faster you go, the bigger the mess. Not everyone is as good as you as judging the speed of oncoming bikes, if they see them at all.

So speed isn't our focus, but it is still an issue. I have come to accept that no matter what any of us (engineers, educators, enforcers) does, crashes will happen. And if they happen at lower speeds, they will have less kinetic energy imparted.

I don't want to give up on trying to find better ways that I can actually use. Trouble is, I don't write national policing policy, I can change my focus, but changing the nations focus is bigger than Ben Hur.

I challenge the system at times on this, and it's fair to say that I'm not always popular at work for doing so.

So, kindly accept that I don't have the closed mind you accuse me of. I surprisingly agree with some of what you have said.

Awwww, all tearful, Jacko, I WUV YOU.

Harumph.:love:

[Ocean1]

Might I suggest a third option.

Accept that when operating a vehicle we are interacting with the rest of the road users out there, and we have a responsibility to not adversely effect their safety. Similarly, we reasonably expect the rest of the road users not to adversely effect our safety.

Works for me.

Works for me also. But that's got fuck all to do with much of the traffic enforcement suite.

[scumdog]

A point I failed to mention - I don't 'target' speeders - they're just incidental to where I'm going/what I'm doing.

And today I flicked through about 15 tickets issued by other guys this afternoon.

ONE was for speed (125kph) and the others contained a real high percentage of 'compliance' tickets.

Revenue gatherers they are not.

So all the focus on speed must be 'somewhere else'.

[rastuscat]

And today I flicked through about 15 tickets issued by other guys this afternoon.

ONE was for speed (125kph) and the others contained a real high percentage of 'compliance' tickets.

I feel your pain.

Wait til your guys get SMART devices, the reporting is cool. You get to not shuffle the paper, and it's in the PIB by the end of shift.

[Scuba_Steve]

So all the focus on speed must be 'somewhere else'.

yea North Island

[rastuscat]

yea North Island

Skoober Stebe lives !! All Hail, Skoober Stebe.

Nice retort. :yes:

[swbarnett]

Might I suggest a third option.

Accept that when operating a vehicle we are interacting with the rest of the road users out there, and we have a responsibility to not adversely effect their safety. Similarly, we reasonably expect the rest of the road users not to adversely effect our safety.

Works for me.
I thought this thread was about speeding tickets, not safety?

[rastuscat]

I thought this thread was about speeding tickets, not safety?

IT'S MY THREAD, IF I WANNA HIJACK IT I CAN BLOODY WELL DO SO.

Calming down. Breathe. Wow, where did that come from?

[Scuba_Steve]

Skoober Stebe lives !! All Hail, Skoober Stebe.

Nice retort. :yes:

It should be pronounced "sieg heil! mein Führer Scuba Steve" :laugh:

Not sure about living? The propaganda says I'm a Zombie... Apparently I died the day after I got my licence. Cost me $150 too if I remember right.

[swbarnett]

Well you'ld be a mug to credit them with a higher level of proficiency before they indicate proof of it.
This attitude is exactly why we have as many idiots as we do. My own philosophy is to treat other drives as though they can drive but be ready when the odd one proves they can't. I still get "abused" by the traffic but I get far less of it than I did when I expected every driver to run me down.

[Kickaha]

yea North Island

Best place for it too

[scumdog]

This attitude is exactly why we have as many idiots as we do. My own philosophy is to treat other drives as though they can drive but be ready when the odd one proves they can't. I still get "abused" by the traffic but I get far less of it than I did when I expected every driver to run me down.


So, in reality we're singing from the same song-sheet - only from different ends.

It's just I tend to see 'the glass-is-half-empty' side of things, maybe my job did it to me but I doubt it, I had a black-belt in cynicism well before I was in this job.

But good on you for being defensive in your approach toother drivers, you'll probably live longer for it.:yes:

[Jack Miller]

Not at all Jacko.

Actually yes RC. You asked why ticketing against the speed limit caused angst and received some well considered, thoughtful answers. Instead of acknowledging and considering them you trivialised the lot as:
because so many of us do it, and expect to have a right to do so

Engage with the answers and you might learn something.

But here is why you won't:

I have come to accept that no matter what any of us (engineers, educators, enforcers) does, crashes will happen. And if they happen at lower speeds, they will have less kinetic energy imparted.

The only logical conclusion to this thinking is that everyone must slow down until they are stopped. In other words the only "solution" that can enter your mind is one that totally eliminates the purpose of traffic. In your mind the only way to keep traffic safe is to have no traffic. This is impossible. So your mind remains closed.

[scumdog]

yea North Island

Hmm, that must be one of the 'advantages' of being in a cosmopolitan high population part of the country - not quite the same sort of level as large rock concerts and warm weather but...:blink:

[scumdog]

The only logical conclusion to this thinking is that everyone must slow down until they are stopped. In other words the only "solution" that can enter your mind is one that totally eliminates the purpose of traffic. In your mind the only way to keep traffic safe is to have no traffic. This is impossible. So your mind remains closed.

A lot of 'conclusion-jumping' there Jack - your 'logical conclusion' may well turn out to be an opinion.

And a bit of balance might not go amiss.:yes:

(You're not really Lou Girardin are you????):blink: