I am disappointed the Crown has dropped charges against local terrorists

[HenryDorsetCase]

They should all have been put against a wall and shot, summary justice style.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/5572235/Gun-charges-against-Urewera-accused-dropped

then we could have argued about whether it was legal or not. In the meantime, problem solved.

[DEATH_INC.]

Na, terrorism is ok, as long as you don't speed or do a skid while doing it.

[Indiana_Jones]

I wanna know what the firearm charges are. Do they have any real offences or did the guns they have look too 'MSSA' like for the boys in blue?

OMG watchout, it's got a 'free standing' grip!

Holy shit balls! it's got a bayonet lug!!!!

We're all dead!

-Indy

[Mental Trousers]

I don't care what the charges are as long as Tama Iti gets kicked out of the country. They've failed at that. Useless wankers.

[mashman]

what did they do? I remember seeing something on telly, but never actually found out what terrorist acts they had committed?

[Banditbandit]

They should all have been put against a wall and shot, summary justice style.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/5572235/Gun-charges-against-Urewera-accused-dropped

then we could have argued about whether it was legal or not. In the meantime, problem solved.

Naaa .. we can't allow the Government to "shoot first" - Innocent people get killed - and then they'll shoot bikers first ..


I wanna know what the firearm charges are. Do they have any real offences or did the guns they have look too 'MSSA' like for the boys in blue?

OMG watchout, it's got a 'free standing' grip!

Holy shit balls! it's got a bayonet lug!!!!

We're all dead!

-Indy

I do know that some of the charges were for possession of a firearm without a permit - some of them had their grandfather's and great grandfather's guns from WW1 and WW2 - kept as souveners from the war and regarded as taonga by the families .. probably never been fired in 60 years ...

Yeah - they did have the guns without permits ... but there was never any intent by these owners to actually use the taonga ..

[steve_t]

what did they do? I remember seeing something on telly, but never actually found out what terrorist acts they had committed?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_New_Zealand_anti-terror_raids

[Banditbandit]

I don't care what the charges are as long as Tama Iti gets kicked out of the country. They've failed at that. Useless wankers.

We can't deport one of our citizens ... and yes, you may think he's a useless wanker - you may not like his politics - but he has never advocated violence to achieve social change ...

[Banditbandit]

what did they do? I remember seeing something on telly, but never actually found out what terrorist acts they had committed?

None. That's the reason they dropped the charges under the Terrorism Act

[MIXONE]

We can't deport one of our citizens ... and yes, you may think he's a useless wanker - you may not like his politics - but he has never advocated violence to achieve social change ...

Hasn't stopped him using a gun on a couple of occassions though eh.

[Banditbandit]

Hasn't stopped him using a gun on a couple of occassions though eh.

Shit - I own four guns (sold one a while ago) and use them frequently - does that make me a terrorist or a wanker?

But in the context? Shooting an Aussie flag ('cause if it had been an NZ one he could have been prosecuted - evryone thought that what it was .. but he was brighter than that) on the ground outside his home as a symbolic gesture? No major harm in that is there?

[MIXONE]

Shit - I own four guns (sold one a while ago) and use them frequently - does that make me a terrorist or a wanker?

It does if you do it with no regard for people around you.

[Banditbandit]

It does if you do it with no regard for people around you.

So - tell me what he did "with no regard fotr the people around him" ... Is he being prosecuted for "wreckless use of a firearm"?

[MIXONE]

So - tell me what he did "with no regard fotr the people around him" ... Is he being prosecuted for "wreckless use of a firearm"?

Not this time but on two seperate occassioins that I know of.

[Banditbandit]

Not this time but on two seperate occassioins that I know of.

You'll have to be more specific and come up with something a bit strnger than that allegation

[Bald Eagle]

You'll have to be more specific and come up with something a bit strnger than that allegation

On January 16, 2005 during a powhiri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C5%8Dwhiri) (or greeting ceremony) which formed part of a Waitangi Tribunal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waitangi_Tribunal) hearing, Tāme Iti fired a shotgun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun) into a New Zealand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_New_Zealand) flag in close proximity to a large number of people

[MIXONE]

You'll have to be more specific and come up with something a bit strnger than that allegation

Allegation?He's been charged twice.Once for the flag shooting incident and another time when he shot holes in a roof to scare some kids.Look it up if you don't beleive me.

[admenk]

Allegation?He's been charged twice.Once for the flag shooting incident and another time when he shot holes in a roof to scare some kids.Look it up if you don't beleive me.

That's because he's a victim of "white supremacist" views bought to this fair land by all those horrible foreigners :innocent:

[Banditbandit]

On January 16, 2005 during a powhiri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C5%8Dwhiri) (or greeting ceremony) which formed part of a Waitangi Tribunal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waitangi_Tribunal) hearing, Tāme Iti fired a shotgun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun) into a New Zealand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_New_Zealand) flag in close proximity to a large number of people


Allegation?He's been charged twice.Once for the flag shooting incident and another time when he shot holes in a roof to scare some kids.Look it up if you don't beleive me.


Allegation because you made the claim without supporting evidence ...

Yes - he was convicted of discharging a firearm in a public place and fined. (I thopught he'd got off - I was wrong) That's a long way from terrorist activity and a long way from discharging a firearm without regard for others ... And Tame says it was an Aussie flag - looked the same lying on the ground - because he didn't want to be charged with destroying a New Zealand flag ..

I fail to see how the ceremonial firing of a gun on a marae during a powhiri can be illegal - and yes, I do know he was convicted.

And I can't find any reference to the sots to scare kids ... Help me out here?

[Banditbandit]

That's because he's a victim of "white supremacist" views bought to this fair land by all those horrible foreigners :innocent:

Bullshit!!! I'd never argue that position.

[admenk]

Bullshit!!! I'd never argue that position.

Keep calm, I'm just giving my wooden spoon a workout!

[Banditbandit]

Keep calm, I'm just giving my wooden spoon a workout!

Bwhahahahaha ... just trolling back ..

[mashman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_New_Zealand_anti-terror_raids

that actually makes for quite comical reading...

"About 300 police, including members of the Armed Offenders and anti-terror squads, were involved in the raids in which four guns and 230 rounds of ammunition were seized and 17 people arrested, all but one of them charged with firearms offences."

16 charged with firearms offences and only 4 guns found... errrrrrrm... did they just arrest everyone because there were 4 guns present?

and how does this work "The owner of Christchurch gun dealer Gun City, which is supposed to have supplied about 5% of the group's weapons"... 5% of 4 guns = errrrrrrrrm... (it's just how I read it, ok)

anyhoo... t'would seem like an overreation to arrest them all (especially given the survivalist nonsense and their bush training)... why not just send the police there for a chat, or a politician to explain exactly what the problem with their activities was.

Sounds like a racist double standard to me :yes:

[Pussy]

Gotta watch them Te Qaeda bastards......

[puddytat]

They should all have been put against a wall and shot, summary justice style.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/5572235/Gun-charges-against-Urewera-accused-dropped

then we could have argued about whether it was legal or not. In the meantime, problem solved.

Thats the only ones they know about......:yes:

[JimO]

old scribblehead will be wanting compensation from whitey now

[rainman]

Just the usual level of incompetence... nothing to see here, move along.

[onearmedbandit]

Apparently he is/was a member of the NZ Communist Party. That's enough for me.

[SPman]

Apparently he is/was a member of the NZ Communist Party. That's enough for me.If he was a member of the National party, would that have been OK then?

[Road kill]

what did they do? I remember seeing something on telly, but never actually found out what terrorist acts they had committed?

They raided the homes and terrorised the familys of a group of people that had got togeather to discuss the best ways to present their arguements to the gov't of the day,,,and the most effective ways to stage a protest.
Part of their plan was to hold he women and children of those they were tring to terrorise at gun point whilist dressed up in black clothing with blacked out faces and carrying the same sort of firearms they increasingly denigh the general population.
Then of course they trumped up as many false charges as they could so as to cost the inoccent so much money in defending themselves that they are still in debt today.

Think about this the next time you decide to ride on the bee hive with some self obsessed whinge about having to pay your own way for things like ACC.
It worked against the niggers and a few invironmental freaks,,,so it will probably work against you to,,,after all,,the fuckers have had their practice,,and it worked great.

[oldrider]

None. That's the reason they dropped the charges under the Terrorism Act

I stumbled onto a Webb site accidentally and read the garbage posted on there, I wondered what the hell was going on, thought it was some overseas terrorist site!

Turns out later that it was some of these guys, there was some seriously real bad stuff on there!

I don't think,from what I saw, that it was all innocence, the way it was handled may have been bad but where there is smoke there is fire they say!

"Someone" was up to no good ... better safe than sorry, pity it wasn't handled better though!

[Grubber]

Allegation because you made the claim without supporting evidence ...

Yes - he was convicted of discharging a firearm in a public place and fined. (I thopught he'd got off - I was wrong) That's a long way from terrorist activity and a long way from discharging a firearm without regard for others ... And Tame says it was an Aussie flag - looked the same lying on the ground - because he didn't want to be charged with destroying a New Zealand flag ..

I fail to see how the ceremonial firing of a gun on a marae during a powhiri can be illegal - and yes, I do know he was convicted.

And I can't find any reference to the sots to scare kids ... Help me out here?

I don't recall firing a gun at a powhiri as being part of the ceremony. "Ceremonial firing"????? That's a new one on me.
If i had even walked within 100metres of any public, with a firearm of any sort, i would have been arrested right there and then. I am not even allowed to walk down a street with one over my shoulder on my way to a gun shop without it being locked and in a carry cover, so how does it make it right for this dick to carry one into a public arena and actually discharge it????

[ellipsis]

....hmmm...no charges against AOS member for killing an innocent boy in a van, on a highway either...reckless disregard?....

[BoristheBiter]

Naaa .. we can't allow the Government to "shoot first" - Innocent people get killed - and then they'll shoot bikers first ..



I do know that some of the charges were for possession of a firearm without a permit - some of them had their grandfather's and great grandfather's guns from WW1 and WW2 - kept as souveners from the war and regarded as taonga by the families .. probably never been fired in 60 years ...

Yeah - they did have the guns without permits ... but there was never any intent by these owners to actually use the taonga ..

This is the problem as most of the case has been suppressed so we will have to wait 15 years to find out what actually went on.
You can make up all sorts of crap of who did what to whom but unless you were there I guess you will have to wait 15 years like the rest of us.

[oneofsix]

This is the problem as most of the case has been suppressed so we will have to wait 15 years to find out what actually went on.
You can make up all sorts of crap of who did what to whom but unless you were there I guess you will have to wait 15 years like the rest of us.

yeah and don't hold your breath on that one. Personally, and its not like I'm ever wrong :drinkup:, I think the govt were understandable nervous about the military style boot camp fitness thing then some planes crashed, panic hit, they over reacted and they wouldn't be keen to admit it.

[HenryDorsetCase]

....hmmm...no charges against AOS member for killing an innocent boy in a van, on a highway either...reckless disregard?....

seriously? you're seriously going there?

[ellipsis]

seriously? you're seriously going there?

...not at all...but if reckless disregard...firearms...police...charges dropped..are being bandied about, then it has its relevance...to me...

[sinfull]

This is the problem as most of the case has been suppressed so we will have to wait 15 years to find out what actually went on.
You can make up all sorts of crap of who did what to whom but unless you were there I guess you will have to wait 15 years like the rest of us.

The crown are appealing to have some of that information to be made public, (usually the other way round too aint it) for the good of the public , in other words the conspiracy probably does go deaper !
But the case against the ones who didn't actually own the firearms has been dropped !
It has been a waist of taxpayers money and the crown probably knew it was gonna be a battle to win a case in it's first use of the terror laws, but had to try and set a precident !

Personally i'm pleased it was thrown out ! Or heaven forbid i could one day be arrested and charged for saying that John Key should be taken out or that if any future bike protests are made the rest of you wallies should ride up to parliment like we did !

[oneofsix]

Personally i'm pleased it was thrown out ! Or heaven forbid i could one day be arrested and charged for saying that John Key should be taken out !

Only if he pays and I can bring some company :innocent:

[BoristheBiter]

yeah and don't hold your breath on that one. Personally, and its not like I'm ever wrong :drinkup:, I think the govt were understandable nervous about the military style boot camp fitness thing then some planes crashed, panic hit, they over reacted and they wouldn't be keen to admit it.

I can see why they were nervous. Have you ever hunted down that neck of the woods?
I don't think they over reacted I think they have been told to drop most of the charges, let me think why, could it be that there is an election this year or was it just the fact it was a very high profile anti-white Maori.

[Banditbandit]

Ata marie i tēnei rangi ataahua.


I don't recall firing a gun at a powhiri as being part of the ceremony. "Ceremonial firing"????? That's a new one on me.
If i had even walked within 100metres of any public, with a firearm of any sort, i would have been arrested right there and then. I am not even allowed to walk down a street with one over my shoulder on my way to a gun shop without it being locked and in a carry cover, so how does it make it right for this dick to carry one into a public arena and actually discharge it????

The powhiri is not a "welcome" as most Pākehā believe. It's a ritual of encounter, and the marae atea, being the domain of Tumatauenga - the atua of conflict, is the perfect place for demonstrations of the tangata whenua feelings about the manuhiri - and vice versa ...

And Tame has perfected the art of using the powhiri process in this way. In Māori terms, in that situation, Tame's actions were perfect. I happen to know the kaumatua who lead the tribunal onto his marae - he had no issues at all with Tame's actions ...


This is the problem as most of the case has been suppressed so we will have to wait 15 years to find out what actually went on.
You can make up all sorts of crap of who did what to whom but unless you were there I guess you will have to wait 15 years like the rest of us.

Yes - that's certainly true .. we won't know what evidence the crown had for quite some time ... I seriously doubt they have any.


I can see why they were nervous. Have you ever hunted down that neck of the woods?
I don't think they over reacted I think they have been told to drop most of the charges, let me think why, could it be that there is an election this year or was it just the fact it was a very high profile anti-white Maori.

Tuhoe consider Te Urewera still belongs to them. And a lot of them still live off the land - hunting and gathering - and they are protective of what they see as their land.

I see it as a bit of white fear going on here. A bunch of Māori are running round the bush with guns - they have what can be seen to be anti-white sentiment - they are to be feared ...

Yes, they had camps in the bush - to hunt and gather and teach the yong people how to hunt and gather - and to keep the young people out of the towns and cities where they get into trouble. But the perception is a bunch of anti-white Māori are teaching kids to use guns ... Uh Oh .. raid them now ..

There's much scarier groups out there than Tuhoe and Tame ... Some of the right wing survivalist groups I've had contact with in the past are much much scarier ... and I know they have talked seriously about using their weapons in the past (I've had no contact for many years) ... people like Anders Breivik are much scareir and they do exist in Godzone ..

[avgas]

Pity the crown still here too.

The new princess can suck my dick before I bow to the monarchy.

As long as the whiteys hang on to the crown, and the Maori's hang onto the treaty. We will never be a nation.

[Banditbandit]

Pity the crown still here too.

The new princess can suck my dick before I bow to the monarchy.

As long as the whiteys hang on to the crown, and the Maori's hang onto the treaty. We will never be a nation.

Pae tō korero. I'm inclined to agree with you.

[trustme]

Ata marie i tēnei rangi ataahua.



The powhiri is not a "welcome" as most Pākehā believe. It's a ritual of encounter, and the marae atea, being the domain of Tumatauenga - the atua of conflict, is the perfect place for demonstrations of the tangata whenua feelings about the manuhiri - and vice versa ...

And Tame has perfected the art of using the powhiri process in this way. In Māori terms, in that situation, Tame's actions were perfect. I happen to know the kaumatua who lead the tribunal onto his marae - he had no issues at all with Tame's actions ...



Yes - that's certainly true .. we won't know what evidence the crown had for quite some time ... I seriously doubt they have any.



Tuhoe consider Te Urewera still belongs to them. And a lot of them still live off the land - hunting and gathering - and they are protective of what they see as their land.

I see it as a bit of white fear going on here. A bunch of Māori are running round the bush with guns - they have what can be seen to be anti-white sentiment - they are to be feared ...

Yes, they had camps in the bush - to hunt and gather and teach the yong people how to hunt and gather - and to keep the young people out of the towns and cities where they get into trouble. But the perception is a bunch of anti-white Māori are teaching kids to use guns ... Uh Oh .. raid them now ..

There's much scarier groups out there than Tuhoe and Tame ... Some of the right wing survivalist groups I've had contact with in the past are much much scarier ... and I know they have talked seriously about using their weapons in the past (I've had no contact for many years) ... people like Anders Breivik are much scareir and they do exist in Godzone ..

On the whole I probably agree with you.
For what it is worth at the time this was going down I was dealing with a retired eastern bay area chief of police who had accomodated Iti on many occasions usually not with Tame's consent so to speak.
Did he think Iti was a terrorist ? No
Violent No
Shit stirrer Yes
Grand standing , attention seeker Yes
Would he egg others on while maintaining a safe distance & deniability Yes

I ran across Iti once, it left an indelible impression on myself & my wife. His intimidating & agressive demeanour to women & children makes him a coward in my book

I'd like to see all the information published

[avgas]

Pae tō korero. I'm inclined to agree with you.
Yep I am as European as the Maori in NZ are Hawaiians/Pacific Islanders.
I was born here, I grew up here under NZ rules.

We need to affirm this as a nation - ditch the rest.
Otherwise we should drop the whole thing and realize we are nation of nothing. The bitch island of the pacific rim and the monarchy retarded reject child. If we are lucky the US will bomb us and take us over, or the Chinese will buy us out.

History is useless if it simply creates more conflict in the future.

[Banditbandit]

Yep I am as European as the Maori in NZ are Hawaiians/Pacific Islanders.
I was born here, I grew up here under NZ rules.

Yes, we need to learn to live together in this country - that's what people like Tame wants too - just has a different way of getting there - and a justifiable anger on behalf of his people ... which I happen to share. I just gave up the radical politics years ago to actually go and do somthing real and effective. Constant protest is necessary but it has very long term results. Getting into education allowed me to directly affect people's lives here and now.



We need to affirm this as a nation - ditch the rest.

YES!!!!


Otherwise we should drop the whole thing and realize we are nation of nothing. The bitch island of the pacific rim and the monarchy retarded reject child. If we are lucky the US will bomb us and take us over, or the Chinese will buy us out.

That will not allow us to be a nation .. it just changes the colonizer ...


History is useless if it simply creates more conflict in the future.

Hmm .. to understand where we are now we have to look at how we got here ...



Would he egg others on while maintaining a safe distance & deniability Yes

I ran across Iti once, it left an indelible impression on myself & my wife. His intimidating & agressive demeanour to women & children makes him a coward in my book

I'd like to see all the information published

I'm not sure I like Tame personally (meet him a couple of times). I agree with his politic and actions - but he's certainly got issues himself - and his treatment of women and children is pretty typical Tuhoe Male ... most (probably white) women would find him a sexist pig ..

[admenk]

Pity the crown still here too.

Now I've only been here 4 years, so I stand to be corrected, but it strikes me that the phrase "the crown", is still used as a convenient way for the NZ govt to do something that's controversial whilst implying that the decision wasn't there's, but those colonial types back in dear old blighty!
As I understand it, "the crown" here is merely another term for the NZ govt, so why don't they just say that? Does the Queen (love her or loathe her) actually have anything to do with their decisions?

As I said, I'm probably wrong and there may be a legal reason why we still refer to "the crown". Can anybody enlighten me in plain English? (or even Te Reo if you give me time to translate!)

[BoristheBiter]

Tuhoe consider Te Urewera still belongs to them. And a lot of them still live off the land - hunting and gathering - and they are protective of what they see as their land.

I see it as a bit of white fear going on here. A bunch of Māori are running round the bush with guns - they have what can be seen to be anti-white sentiment - they are to be feared ...

Yes, they had camps in the bush - to hunt and gather and teach the yong people how to hunt and gather - and to keep the young people out of the towns and cities where they get into trouble. But the perception is a bunch of anti-white Māori are teaching kids to use guns ... Uh Oh .. raid them now ..

There's much scarier groups out there than Tuhoe and Tame ... Some of the right wing survivalist groups I've had contact with in the past are much much scarier ... and I know they have talked seriously about using their weapons in the past (I've had no contact for many years) ... people like Anders Breivik are much scareir and they do exist in Godzone ..


Actually i was meaning the gangs that are allowed to run freely within Maori, MM BP and the like.

We had been in the bush for around 4 days and when we came out the cars had been smashed, and I don't mean broken into and tried to be stolen, I mean there was not a straight panel left on the car.
Last time after 2 days we came out to a stand off with the guys that had stayed in camp and a bunch using stand over tactics to steal all the gear. lucky we came out when we did. they left we packed up quickly and as we were driving down the road they were heading back in with even more people.

As for Maori having camps in there i don't care, i think it is a good thing, but when it is for training hatred then that becomes the problem, but as we will have to wait to see i can see a lot of speculation instead of the truth.

[Banditbandit]

Now I've only been here 4 years, so I stand to be corrected, but it strikes me that the phrase "the crown", is still used as a convenient way for the NZ govt to do something that's controversial whilst implying that the decision wasn't there's, but those colonial types back in dear old blighty!
As I understand it, "the crown" here is merely another term for the NZ govt, so why don't they just say that? Does the Queen (love her or loathe her) actually have anything to do with their decisions?

As I said, I'm probably wrong and there may be a legal reason why we still refer to "the crown". Can anybody enlighten me in plain English? (or even Te Reo if you give me time to translate!)

Partly you are right "The Crown" is generally "The Government" ..

But try and suggest we become a Republic and see just how much "The Crown" in GodZone means the English Royal Family ..

[trustme]

I'm not sure I like Tame personally (meet him a couple of times). I agree with his politic and actions - but he's certainly got issues himself - and his treatment of women and children is pretty typical Tuhoe Male ... most (probably white) women would find him a sexist pig ..

The politics I can understand, the actions I can not be bothered with.

Some seek to rectify situations in a positive & constructive manner . Iti & his ilk are negative & destructive.
The pity of it is that they get all the attention while those doing the hard work & making a difference are ignored. Just the way the world works I guess

[Banditbandit]

Actually i was meaning the gangs that are allowed to run freely within Maori, MM BP and the like.

We had been in the bush for around 4 days and when we came out the cars had been smashed, and I don't mean broken into and tried to be stolen, I mean there was not a straight panel left on the car.
Last time after 2 days we came out to a stand off with the guys that had stayed in camp and a bunch using stand over tactics to steal all the gear. lucky we came out when we did. they left we packed up quickly and as we were driving down the road they were heading back in with even more people.



Yeah .. there's always going to be dickheads - of all colours and all races ...

[mashman]

Hmm .. to understand where we are now we have to look at how we got here ...

I disagree. imho, to understand where we are now we have to look at how far we've come, but measured against where we're going, not where we've been... unfortunately trying not to go broke seems to be the goal for the future... pretty pathetic considering what we have achieved under the shackles of budget constraints... ohhhhh to have money out of the equation.

[trustme]

Actually i was meaning the gangs that are allowed to run freely within Maori, MM BP and the like.

We had been in the bush for around 4 days and when we came out the cars had been smashed, and I don't mean broken into and tried to be stolen, I mean there was not a straight panel left on the car.
Last time after 2 days we came out to a stand off with the guys that had stayed in camp and a bunch using stand over tactics to steal all the gear. lucky we came out when we did. they left we packed up quickly and as we were driving down the road they were heading back in with even more people.

As for Maori having camps in there i don't care, i think it is a good thing, but when it is for training hatred then that becomes the problem, but as we will have to wait to see i can see a lot of speculation instead of the truth.

Standard practice if you are not a local. The locals cars usually get left alone.

[imdying]

I fail to see how the ceremonial firing of a gun on a marae during a powhiri can be illegal - and yes, I do know he was convicted. Because we're not savages, we don't condone firing guns around randoms, and there's one law for everybody. Unless you're a child raping comedian. Or you need to travel to stay employed.

[avgas]

Now I've only been here 4 years, so I stand to be corrected, but it strikes me that the phrase "the crown", is.....
Crown is considered the law above the govt and its laws.
Handy if you want to deal with things as a third person. Useless as it means no one MANS UP and takes ownership.

Effectively leaving us all as headless chooks in NZ.

[imdying]

Yeah .. there's always going to be dickheads - of all colours and all races ...The difference being, in New Zealand, you and all the other blacks just brush it off and sweep it under the carpet because they're people of the land or some shite.

Face it, the Maori people are the biggest racists in New Zealand.

[admenk]

Because we're not savages

I am :innocent:

[avgas]

Hmm .. to understand where we are now we have to look at how we got here ...
I used to believe this.
But every nation that has followed this mantra simply repeats the same mistakes.

But prove me wrong. Point out one nation that has looked at its history and truly learned from its past and now is dreamland?
Only one I can think of is Germany - the whipping boy of Europe.

[trustme]

The difference being, in New Zealand, you and all the other blacks just brush it off and sweep it under the carpet because they're people of the land or some shite.

Face it, the Maori people are the biggest racists in New Zealand.

A small minority of Maori are racist, the same can be said of Pakeha.
The vast majority just want to get on with their life.

[HenryDorsetCase]

and his treatment of women and children is pretty typical Tuhoe Male ... most (probably white) women would find him a sexist pig ..

I just want to pick up on that point.

What it says is "Its ok to be a sexist, bullying fuckwit, as long as you're brown" You're implicitly making an excuse for this behaviour, and justifying it based on the "Its Ok, its a Maori thing" basis.

In my view, that is utterly wrong. Human rights trump the "rights" of a subgroup every time. In a larger context, that is why I believe that the sickly white liberal guilt that allowed the Waitangi Tribunal to start, to flourish, and now to become a gravy train for a dusky elite is entirely the wrong approach, and my own view is that "tribalism" is not a fit concept for any group of people to move forward in the 21st century. I also honestly think that a politician is a politician no matter what colour their skin. Lot of bullshit, lot of talking up "benefits for the people" but fuck all trickling down to actual punters walking down the street, brown black green pink or white.

So, um, there. Thats what I think.

[Bald Eagle]

I suspect there are law graduates retiring shortly who have only ever known that gravy train. Would be a shame to stop it now the universities would have less places to send the graduates. :rofl:

[MisterD]

Crown is considered the law above the govt and its laws.
Handy if you want to deal with things as a third person. Useless as it means no one MANS UP and takes ownership.

Effectively leaving us all as headless chooks in NZ.

Nope. "Crown" means the government, as in "Her Majesty's Government". When NZ became an independent nation, all the responsibilities of the UK as colonial power passed to our government.

[Banditbandit]

Nope. "Crown" means the government, as in "Her Majesty's Government". When NZ became an independent nation, all the responsibilities of the UK as colonial power passed to our government.

The Queen is still offocially our Head of State - as in "her Majesty's Government" ...

[Banditbandit]

Because we're not savages, we don't condone firing guns around randoms, and there's one law for everybody. Unless you're a child raping comedian. Or you need to travel to stay employed.

No we don't condom random gun furing - but we do condone ceremonial gun firing ... like the 21-gun salute for her Majesty's birthday - some state visits - and gunfire at military funerals ..

The marae is not a public place .. it is owned by the locals ... so how can you be convicted for firing a gun into the ground on your own land?

Sure there is one law for all - would you be expected to be prosecuted if you fired a gun into the ground on your own land (provided it was not a defined urban area)? Shit - I shoot possums and rabbits on my own land and don't expect to be prosecuted. And neither did Tame or any other Tuhoe there ..

[BoristheBiter]

No we don't condom random gun furing - but we do condone ceremonial gun firing ... like the 21-gun salute for her Majesty's birthday - some state visits - and gunfire at military funerals ..

The marae is not a public place .. it is owned by the locals ... so how can you be convicted for firing a gun into the ground on your own land?

Sure there is one law for all - would you be expected to be prosecuted if you fired a gun into the ground on your own land (provided it was not a defined urban area)? Shit - I shoot possums and rabbits on my own land and don't expect to be prosecuted. And neither did Tame or any other Tuhoe there ..

Some what a bit different, 21 gun salute fires blanks not live rounds.
Because he holds no firearm licence.
You would think that but you well know it isn't.

and what is this condom firing gun you speak of, kinky lot you natives.

[Banditbandit]

Some what a bit different, 21 gun salute fires blanks not live rounds.
Because he holds no firearm licence.
You would think that but you well know it isn't.

and what is this condom firing gun you speak of

No I don't - it seems like white New Zealand ceremonies are fine - ours are not !!!

[BoristheBiter]

No I don't - it seems like white New Zealand ceremonies are fine - ours are not !!!

If he had blanks in the gun fine, but they were live rounds he fired.

[Shadowjack]

With the heat that this situation has generated, it's perhaps worth considering that if Tuhoe hadn't been disenfranchised (almost genocidally) from the political and social processes within NZ from the mid-19th century on, we wouldn't be having this discussion (and I use the term in it's most generous sense).

[mashman]

and no apology... (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/10208263/no-police-apology-for-urewera-raids/)that's just mean spirited.

[HenryDorsetCase]

With the heat that this situation has generated, it's perhaps worth considering that if Tuhoe hadn't been disenfranchised (almost genocidally) from the political and social processes within NZ from the mid-19th century on, we wouldn't be having this discussion (and I use the term in it's most generous sense).

Just playing the devils advocate, but they refused to bow to their colonial conquerors, so, you know, fuck them. Your disenfranchised is my "sore loser".



*I do feel the need** to state that is not my opinion, just an alternative view put forth for discussion purposes


**which is of course a sad indictment of our politically correct times

[oldrider]

No I don't - it seems like white New Zealand ceremonies are fine - ours are not !!!

There is no them and us in NZ .... there is only us, "all" of us!

That is my perception and therefore my reality ... to think otherwise is tantamount to "treason"! (IMHO)

What we think about invariably happens, so I am thinking positively about our countries future! :yes: ("my" thoughts and actions are the only ones that I control)

[scissorhands]

Waihope was only a marginal action in terms of public attention and give a fuck meter

Symbolic actions like one tree hill, flag shooting, can become immortalised in history. Unless they die away from public attention

Its prudent for the crown to bury this and carry on as usual. Fucking communists

[Banditbandit]

I just want to pick up on that point.

What it says is "Its ok to be a sexist, bullying fuckwit, as long as you're brown" You're implicitly making an excuse for this behaviour, and justifying it based on the "Its Ok, its a Maori thing" basis.

Sorry Henry - I never meant to imply that at all .. I believe I prefaced that sentence with "I don't think I personally like him ..." for very much the reasons you point out. I make no excuse for that behaviour and I'm totally disgusted by it. Oppresion on the basis of colour, sex, religion is all wrong - Tame can't take the moral high ground on colour and then treat woman like he does ...



In my view, that is utterly wrong. Human rights trump the "rights" of a subgroup every time.

Hmm .. yes .. and no ... I personally don't believe in "rights". It's a legal fiction. People have no "rights" the whole history of this planet proves that people only get what they fight for. "Rights" is one of the current weapons in the fight. As far as I am concerned, it's a bullshit weapon used by idiots who won't stand up and fight.



In a larger context, that is why I believe that the sickly white liberal guilt that allowed the Waitangi Tribunal to start, to flourish, and now to become a gravy train for a dusky elite is entirely the wrong approach,

No. I think a Tribunal to look at grievances based on past events and righting those wrongs is the way to go. Only if we do somethign about these grievances, which have a basis in the past but continue today, can we move forward into the new century.

Tho' I do agree it has become a gravy train for some. Not sure what can be done about that - our whole legal system is a gravy train for lawyers and judges.


and my own view is that "tribalism" is not a fit concept for any group of people to move forward in the 21st century.

Can you give me a definition of tribalism? I'm of the opposite opinion, but let's see if we are talking about the same thing.


I also honestly think that a politician is a politician no matter what colour their skin. Lot of bullshit, lot of talking up "benefits for the people" but fuck all trickling down to actual punters walking down the street, brown black green pink or white.

So, um, there. Thats what I think.

Yeah - I'd agree with that ALL politicians tend to be self-serving bullshit artists. Fuck all gets down to the peope on the ground.

[Banditbandit]

Just playing the devils advocate, but they refused to bow to their colonial conquerors, so, you know, fuck them. Your disenfranchised is my "sore loser".



*I do feel the need** to state that is not my opinion, just an alternative view put forth for discussion purposes


**which is of course a sad indictment of our politically correct times

Fuck Political Correctness - we either have free speach or we don't and in my book free speach allows you to say what you want without need for qualification .. if that upsets the fucking PC liberal wankers then so be it. On the other hand, I think we should moderate what we say to each other so as not to upset each other - but that's a long way from supporting the sort of bullshit that gets chuck around by the wimping liberals. But then I want to qualify that too because I'm pretty good at saying things that upset people - especially wimping liberal wankers ...


There is no them and us in NZ .... there is only us, "all" of us!

That is my perception and therefore my reality ... to think otherwise is tantamount to "treason"! (IMHO)

Yes BUT (you just hate those sentces I know) .. "Us" needs to be inclusive - not just inclusive of our European-derived cultures, but also inclusive of our Māori cultures. At present we feel shut out BECAUSE the European-derived cultures stop us living our culture.


What we think about invariably happens, so I am thinking positively about our countries future! :yes: ("my" thoughts and actions are the only ones that I control)

Excellent. In some ways we agree. But our fututre has to be inclusive of our cultures, not exclusively European-derived.

[MisterD]

The Queen is still offocially our Head of State - as in "her Majesty's Government" ...

You do understand what "Constitutionally Limited Monarchy" means, don't you? Just checking.

[imdying]

No we don't condom random gun furing - but we do condone ceremonial gun firing ... like the 21-gun salute for her Majesty's birthday - some state visits - and gunfire at military funerals ..What, you mean Blanks fired by professionals with the required training? That is your comparison? See, this is why the Maori is the gutter race of New Zealand, you're all fucking thick.

[Banditbandit]

You do understand what "Constitutionally Limited Monarchy" means, don't you? Just checking.

Yes of course ... your point is?

[Banditbandit]

What, you mean Blanks fired by professionals with the required training? That is your comparison? See, this is why the Maori is the gutter race of New Zealand, you're all fucking thick.

Fuck! I just decided I don't need to respond to your racist bullshit !!!

[short-circuit]

Fuck! I just decided I don't need to respond to your racist bullshit !!!

He's just another inbred fron the backwaters of the South Island who feels like a big man on tinternet. Fuckim

[avgas]

Yes of course ... your point is?


You do understand what "Constitutionally Limited Monarchy" means, don't you? Just checking.
Like I said before.
3rd person.
Its not the govt, its not the queen.
The queen is head of it.

Its not the crown whom are pointed the group "saving" Christchurch. And its not the Govt whom deals with treaty settlement.

The quicker we ditch the "crown" and the "treaty" the quicker people take ownership for things.
But who knows, may be being a govt official might not sound so appealing when you have some actual responsibilities.

[Banditbandit]

He's just another inbred fron the backwaters of the South Island who feels like a big man on tinternet. Fuckim

How is your comment about Imdying any different from his?

[avgas]

See, this is why the Maori is the gutter race of New Zealand, you're all fucking thick.

Careful, according to you if we don't pay them they will revolt and it will be the end of the world.

[Banditbandit]

Like I said before.
3rd person.
Its not the govt, its not the queen.
The queen is head of it.

Its not the crown whom are pointed the group "saving" Christchurch. And its not the Govt whom deals with treaty settlement.

The quicker we ditch the "crown" and the "treaty" the quicker people take ownership for things.
But who knows, may be being a govt official might not sound so appealing when you have some actual responsibilities.

Are you arguing for a pretty anarchist position of Individual responsibility? I.e. It's not the crown who appointed the group "saving" Christchurch - it's actual individual people ...

[imdying]

Fuck! I just decided I don't need to respond to your racist bullshit !!!Aw come on, you can't try trolling me and then throw your toys out of the cot when I return in kind :facepalm:

Careful, according to you if we don't pay them they will revolt and it will be the end of the world.?Which is basically the Treaty of Waitangi all over.

[Banditbandit]

Aw come on, you can't try trolling me and then throw your toys out of the cot when I return in kind :facepalm:


I didn't think I was trolling

[avgas]

Which is basically the Treaty of Waitangi all over.
Oh noes, another Hikoi.
The end of the world as we know it.

[admenk]

Oh noes, another Hikoi.
The end of the world as we know it.

No, that will be when the All Blacks get knocked out of the world cup:woohoo:...but that's another thread...sorry!

[short-circuit]

How is your comment about Imdying any different from his?

Good point - except I'd class my comment as more regionalism and incestism

[imdying]

Good point - except I'd class my comment as more regionalism and incestismAhahahahah, you're a good cunt (tm) :laugh:

[Clockwork]

I thought he point being made by admenk was that they seem to like to use the word "Crown" when they want to shift blame away from the "Government"

[admenk]

I thought he point being made by admenk was that they seem to like to use the word "Crown" when they want to shift blame away from the "Government"

That was the gist of it :niceone:

[SPman]

Face it, the Maori people are the biggest racists in New Zealand.This, coming from someone in ChCh......:killingme

[oldrider]

Yes BUT (you just hate those sentces I know) .. "Us" needs to be inclusive - not just inclusive of our European-derived cultures, but also inclusive of our Māori cultures. At present we feel shut out BECAUSE the European-derived cultures stop us living our culture.

I think perhaps what happened after the treaty that Pakeha (pushy) dominance probably took over because Maori culture (perhaps influenced by the ravages of things like the flue epidemic etc?) caused Maori to step back and allow this to happen.

Unfortunately Maori were lead astray by the Labour party, promising much and delivering little that Maori wanted/needed.

They will have to be wary of that by the National party too, or they will fall into the same trap!

Right now Maori are stepping up to the plate and taking responsibility for their share of governing the country through the Maori and Mana parties!

It is interesting observing Pakeha reaction to this, it is not unlike the behaviour of a lot of parents when their children start to grow up and think for themselves, the parents feel threatened and are afraid of losing control.

Pakeha (IMO) do appear to feel threatened by the Maori emergence and that seems to be the driver of some of their negative responses when Maori make a stand on various things that are important to them!

You say,

At present we feel shut out BECAUSE the European-derived cultures stop us living our culture.

I don't entirely agree with that, I think it is more a hangup from the past that Maori still believe to be so, rather than actually being true!

Of course if that is your perception, then it will be your reality and only you can control that!

From my own position in the Pakeha world, Pakeha feel that they have have really tried to help Maori to overcome the difficulties that are perceived to be caused by the Pakeha influence!

There are parts of Maori (and Pakeha) behaviour, rather than culture, that cause Pakeha in particular to be afraid and because Maori appear to defend this as "culture" Pakeha get pissed off and then we all start slinging racist slogans at each other and away it all goes again! :facepalm:

Overall for a small and young country, I believe that we have got a lot to be proud of and despite a small highly vocal minority, race relations in this country are bloody good. :yes:

[Banditbandit]

I pretty much agree with you. I think we are a very young country going through birth pangs ... The Anglo-Saxons of Britain (most of us have ancestors from there) are a mix of Picts, Jutes, Celts (Briton, Eire and Scotland were all Celtic), Romans, Angles, Saxons, French (Normans), with a number of other groups such as the Vikings, Spanish, other Germanic groups .. etc etc

They now see themselves as one people - Anglo-Saxons, ... but at various times they have all fought the invaders .. (and they are named after invading populations - Angles and Saxons) ...whom they have now become ... and they have issues with the current "invaders" from the former colonies

The same thing is happening here ... it's just we are around 200 years old .. Roman occupied Britain for far longer than that alone ..

I disagree that our feeling of being "shut out" is a perception. It's demonstrably true. New Zealanders generally value their European-derived ceremonies but devalue ours (see the discussion above for an example). Look at people like Don Brash's reactiom to Māori cultural actions and requirements ... it's all his way of No Way ...

Things are changing - but do need to change more. Pāehā NZ doesn't have to fight to get its ways of doing things occuring - we have to fight every day to get our way of doign things to happen. We should not have to ...

We fighting to keep our language .. marx said that a peope which does not speak their own language do not exist as a people - only as an adjunct to another group ... we want to exist as a people - we need to speak our own language to do that .. but look at the opposition to that (and expressions of that opposition will surely follow this post ... just as day follows night.)


This bit I will respond to


There are parts of Maori (and Pakeha) behaviour, rather than culture, that cause Pakeha in particular to be afraid and because Maori appear to defend this as "culture" Pakeha get pissed off and then we all start slinging racist slogans at each other and away it all goes again! :facepalm:


Yes - I agree. Some of our activists have no concern that they create Pākehā fears ... I sympathize with them. We have been appeasing Pākehā for many years and some of us are sick of it ..

But it is not a helpful position at all. I think in many ways those people are responding from frustration and anger ... a thought which is pertinent to both groups ... but that's the problem for some of us - "both groups" I don't see us as two groups - we share whakapapa, we are related, we are One People .. but that's One People on Māori terms (we share whakapapa, we are related) ... that's an inclusive idea of "Us" which accomodates Māori and Pākehā - not the exclusive idea of "Us" which says act white or your outside "Us".

In the old days, when there were no Pākehā each Māori group had its own identity and culture - "Us" was the Iwi, the Hāpū or the whanau. There was no collective "Us" in this country, so there had to be accommodation for the various groups and ways of doing things - and sometimes that came to conflict and sometimes it did not - people were accommodating or not as human beings are.

A new group joining this type of accommodation was just a new group joining (happened every time a waka arrived from the islands.)

But I perceive (note the specific and intended use of that word) that the Pākehā idea of us is still the same flavour as the old colonial days - learn to be Pākehā, learn our ways, or you are not of "Us" - you are not New Zealanders.

I hope that makes sense ...

[oldrider]

I hope that makes sense ...

Yes it does but I do not agree that Pakeha "resistance to amalgamating" with Maori culture is as strong as you seem to imply.

Then again Maori "resistance to cultural amalgamation" looks different from the Pakeha side of the field too!

I guess it is like the man in the cheese adds says, "good things take time"! :yes:

Meanwhile I have four grandchildren, two Pakeha and two Maori, while Iwi recognises the two Maori children as Maori, a number of self styled (lesser by %??) Maori, do not!

I guess according to Margaret Mutu one leg, an arm and a few fingers can stay the rest will have to remain as guests of Maori or go move to Australia!

Confusing isn't it! :confused:

[Banditbandit]

Confusing isn't it! :confused:

Not really - I think we largely agree on the kind of country we want to live in ... at least as far as the two cultures go ...

Politics on the other hand ...

[scumdog]

But I perceive (note the specific and intended use of that word) that the Pākehā idea of us is still the same flavour as the old colonial days - learn to be Pākehā, learn our ways, or you are not of "Us" - you are not New Zealanders.

I hope that makes sense ...

Not this old honkie.

I would be happy to see Maori really unite and become as one.

But there's too much infighting at times, too much looking after No.1.

And the rabid anti-pakeha Maori have no trouble holding out their hand for a pakeha hand-out, they seem to want to live as 'traditional' Maori - but with the constant aid and dollars from the Pakeha, whereas other Maori are content to move on, live their lives by their own efforts.

But the worse thing is: the first type end up dragging all Maori down to their level with their rhetoric and actions and drive away support from others.

[BoristheBiter]

In the old days, when there were no Pākehā each Māori group had its own identity and culture - "Us" was the Iwi, the Hāpū or the whanau. There was no collective "Us" in this country, so there had to be accommodation for the various groups and ways of doing things - and sometimes that came to conflict and sometimes it did not - people were accommodating or not as human beings are.





And that is as i see it the biggest problem facing us and the ability to move forward.

I understand that European culture has had a lot longer to mature into a collective "we".

What I see is there are two things Maori want
1) the survival of their culture, and to this i totally agree with,
2) each Iwi's own land and the right to govern said land, to which i sort of agree.

But the problem i see is trying to join both these together as each individual Iwi has a different idea of what they want so a collective stance doesn't work so the issue has to be split. I have done work for a few Iwi and each have there own wants and needs and some are just so divided within themselves that its not worth the effort.
But then you get the problem of governance, and this i fear is never going to be sorted because of the balls up with the treaty and no one can decide on what to do with that.

[oldrider]

Not really - I think we largely agree on the kind of country we want to live in ... at least as far as the two cultures go ...

Politics on the other hand ...

When you say "two" cultures .... we are a multi-culture country today but for convenience I refer to Maori and Pakeha, where Pakeha refers to all "others"!

In my own experience, as children we were prevented from speaking Maori by Maori elders, they wanted their children to be fluent in English as the language of their future!

I don't think they ever thought that their own language was in danger, that became apparent later!

Maori are sorting that out pretty well nowadays IMO they are doing a good job of it too!

I have had my own arse kicked along with my mates for speaking Maori .... fact!

Politics?

When you get right down to it we are not that much different, it is mainly a matter of which gang we think can deliver the goods!

In my experience the two main parties have equal records of non delivery of anything very useful to the electorate, with exception of dumping first past the post!