Sad airshow crash at Reno

[nudemetalz]

A vintage fighter plane crashes near the grandstand at the Reno Air Races in Nevada, leaving several people dead and injuring at least 54.



http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/5644206/Pilot-and-at-least-eight-spectators-killed-in-crash


Makes me wonder about these annual air races at Reno where they push their highly-modified WW2 Fighters to extreme speeds.
I personally like seeing them as restored warbirds being displayed at airshows in a graceful caring manner which will see them last for a long time.
These Reno racers must have some extreme G's put on the airframes.
From Wiki:
"AT Reno from 1964 through 2010, 19 aviators lost their lives due to crashes and collisions in the course of the competition and airshow.[1] In 2007, three pilots died over the course of four days in separate incidents"
What you aviation nuts reckon out there?


RIP to the pilot and those killed too :(

[Swoop]

A divisive topic. I love the racing there, pushing performance levels to the maximum, etc, etc, BUT despise the "butchering" of warbirds in the process.
I hate to think of the amount of work done on Dago Red, for example.
Human desire to go faster and also at low levels. There are strict rules for the racers and everyone knows the risks involved.


Sadly I see another airshow crash this weekend, where a T-<STRIKE>38</STRIKE>28 has gone in.

Respect to all pilots involved and, sadly, spectators.

[James Deuce]

80 Year old pilots pulling big Gs pylon racing.

Anyone see an issue there? I'm sure I'll get shouted at for being ageist, but the FACT is that 80 you have bits that are worn out and spontaneously break, particularly in your cardiovascular system. Pulling 7Gs at 400+ mph 50ft above the ground is just asking for it.

[oneofsix]

80 Year old pilots pulling big Gs pylon racing.

Anyone see an issue there? I'm sure I'll get shouted at for being ageist, but the FACT is that 80 you have bits that are worn out and spontaneously break, particularly in your cardiovascular system. Pulling 7Gs at 400+ mph 50ft above the ground is just asking for it.

You were talking about the pilot :yes: and not the plane? The same could be said of both and in both cases would be a generalization although arguably it's easier to replace the parts on the plane.

[Swoop]

Luckily he was only a sprightly 74 year old.:lol:

[James Deuce]

You were talking about the pilot :yes: and not the plane? The same could be said of both and in both cases would be a generalization although arguably it's easier to replace the parts on the plane.

Those aircraft are in better shape than when they were made. The engines are either remanufactured or new build and put out horsepower figures the designers couldn't have envisaged with metallurgy of their day. They are also maintained far better than they were during WWII.

The pilot was reported as being 80 years old yesterday. 74 is still too old IMHO, the problem is the guys with the experience and money to race them effectively are old.

[oneofsix]

Those aircraft are in better shape than when they were made. The engines are either remanufactured or new build and put out horsepower figures the designers couldn't have envisaged with metallurgy of their day. They are also maintained far better than they were during WWII.

The pilot was reported as being 80 years old yesterday. 74 is still too old IMHO, the problem the guys with the experience and money to race them effectively are old.

But that suggests the power of the engine can now outstrip the limits of the old airframe.

Some 74 yr olds are past, some aren't. The investigation will focus on the pilot as a factor but as there aren't any big business interests I guess the pilot will not be unduly blamed, or was he famous (going by NZ courts that would protect him)

[James Deuce]

But that suggests the power of the engine can now outstrip the limits of the old airframe.

Some 74 yr olds are past, some aren't. The investigation will focus on the pilot as a factor but as there aren't any big business interests I guess the pilot will not be unduly blamed, or was he famous (going by NZ courts that would protect him)
No it doesn't you're just using the Month Python premise of contradiction in place of argument. There will be few, if indeed any original parts left in the airframe. You're making assumptions that these are "warbirds". They're not. They're specialised silhouette racers based on WWII airframes because the Reno air races are about piston power and grew out of the huge surplus of air frames immediately post-WWII when $50 would get you an unused P51D, P63, or P47D (-11 through -40), to go with a huge surplus of qualified pilots. Humans will race anything.

The modern iteration of these aircraft are as removed from their date of manufacture specification as a Vincent Black Lightning is from a cross plane crank R1.

You can't pick which 74 year old, or 80 year old is past it and there are plenty of otherwise healthy septuagenarians and octogenarians who have had a spontaneous AAA walking to the letter box without any warning. Adding stress to organs past their used by date is asking for it, along doing it at high speed right next to a crowd.

[imdying]

Anyone see an issue there?Only if there is people on the ground within crashing distance :D

[Bikemad]

wayne gardner will call for a complete ban on airshows any day now

RIP to those lost

[oneofsix]

No it doesn't you're just using the Month Python premise of contradiction in place of argument. There will be few, if indeed any original parts left in the airframe. You're making assumptions that these are "warbirds". They're not. They're specialised silhouette racers based on WWII airframes because the Reno air races are about piston power and grew out of the huge surplus of air frames immediately post-WWII when $50 would get you an unused P51D, P63, or P47D (-11 through -40), to go with a huge surplus of qualified pilots. Humans will race anything.

The modern iteration of these aircraft are as removed from their date of manufacture specification as a Vincent Black Lightning is from a cross plane crank R1.

You can't pick which 74 year old, or 80 year old is past it and there are plenty of otherwise healthy septuagenarians and octogenarians who have had a spontaneous AAA walking to the letter box without any warning. Adding stress to organs past their used by date is asking for it, along doing it at high speed right next to a crowd.

Argument, what argument? To argue I would have to have some idea about the subject but this being KB it was a great way to get the information I desired. :yes:
I was annoyed at the waste of a historic aircraft but from what you said it wasn't exactly a WWII warbird, it only owed its ancestry to one.

I'll still wait to here the results of the investigation before putting it down to pilot age but I was surprised at his age.

[nudemetalz]

Sadly I see another airshow crash this weekend, where a T-38 has gone in.

Respect to all pilots involved and, sadly, spectators.

Was a T-28 Trojan, one of 6 Trojans in a display team.
All in all a sad weekend for airshows.


Jim is right, they are far removed from what North American Aviation or Grumman etc designed in the '40s. Even this Mustang had its normal radiator removed in the interests of speed. Utilised a boil-off system to cool the engine.

From http://www.supercoolprops.com/articles/gwhite.php

"In other words, the oil cooler, which is located in a duct and exposed to the air stream, has water sprayed on it from a spray bar system. Typically, the spray bars are made from aircraft fire extinguisher tubing. Spray bars are also used on coolant radiators for P-51s. It's a little known fact that between ADI fluid, spray bar fluid and fuel, Dago Red, the worlds' fastest P-51, will consume over 1,000 pounds of fluid in a 15 minute race. That's right, ½ ton of fluid in 15minutes. Of course, a 4360 powered racer such as Furias will consume considerably more."

[Zedder]

Was a T-28 Trojan, one of 6 Trojans in a display team.
All in all a sad weekend for airshows.


Jim is right, they are far removed from what North American Aviation or Grumman etc designed in the '40s. Even this Mustang had its normal radiator removed in the interests of speed. Utilised a boil-off system to cool the engine.

From http://www.supercoolprops.com/articles/gwhite.php

"In other words, the oil cooler, which is located in a duct and exposed to the air stream, has water sprayed on it from a spray bar system. Typically, the spray bars are made from aircraft fire extinguisher tubing. Spray bars are also used on coolant radiators for P-51s. It's a little known fact that between ADI fluid, spray bar fluid and fuel, Dago Red, the worlds' fastest P-51, will consume over 1,000 pounds of fluid in a 15 minute race. That's right, ½ ton of fluid in 15minutes. Of course, a 4360 powered racer such as Furias will consume considerably more."

Those aircraft are tricked out to the max, but I too was surprised how old the pilot of the "Mustang" was. Although it's sad to hear of any air crash it is always very interesting to see the results of air acccident reports.

[2Seat_Terror]

Looks like mechanical failure may be at least partly to blame. Photos show the LH elevator trim tab missing (http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Trim_Tab_Missing_Crash_Plane_205385-1.html)...

Personally I would hate to see additional restrictions on this sort of thing. Nanny state and all that. If they need to put 'at your own risk' clauses on tickets or whatever, so be it!

[wysper]

I was annoyed at the waste of a historic aircraft but from what you said it wasn't exactly a WWII warbird, it only owed its ancestry to one.



So basically they are like the aero equivalent of the fiberglass car kits.
Build a car, whack a fiberglass Corvette Stingray body on and you have a Corvette Stingray. Is that right?

[Maha]

People say stupidest things in times of shock..
A witness at the first crash said...
''The pilot appeared to loose control''...:blink:

[SPman]

So basically they are like the aero equivalent of the fiberglass car kits.
Build a car, whack a fiberglass Corvette Stingray body on and you have a Corvette Stingray. Is that right?
Not really...take a Mustang - rebuild it, re-engineer it, re design it, chop of the wingtips, streamline it, boost the engine to over twice the rated output..etc etc -

Looks like the trim tab may have let go - when that happens, at near 500mph these planes tend to pitch up violently up to 10-12 G's, which effectively GLOCs the pilot. The fact the tail wheel is extended may indicate this - a P51 tail wheel lock overrides at around 8G.
In this case it looks like the plane then torque rolled inverted and power dived into the ground.
In 1998 Bob Hannah in P51 "Voodoo Child" had a similar incident
Apparently, the left elevator trim tab came off the airplane at speed, causing the bird to abruptly pitch up, subjecting driver Hannah to over 10 G's of deceleration forces, and causing him to lose conciousness! When he came to, the raceplane had climbed to over 9,000 feet of altitude. A shaken Hannah regained control and brought Voodoo in for a safe landing. Suspected structural damage kept the raceplane out of the Sunday's championship competition.He also quit air racing!

This is, of course, purely supposition.......

[James Deuce]

So basically they are like the aero equivalent of the fiberglass car kits.
Build a car, whack a fiberglass Corvette Stingray body on and you have a Corvette Stingray. Is that right?
No. They're the aeronautical equivalent of the farmer's axe. 60 years of modification in pursuit of Rare Bear's speed record turns them into mutant spawn of piston powered hell. Another good analogy is Burt Munro's 1920 Indian Scout. 47 years later there wasn't an original atom left in that engine and the frame was vastly different.

[Swoop]

''The pilot appeared to loose control''...:blink:
It must have been a KB'er who said that. A normal person would have said "appeared to lose control".

these planes tend to pitch up violently
Which is the approved emergency procedure for racers with engine problems; up and out of the racing "pack".

[SPman]

It must have been a KB'er who said that. A normal person would have said "appeared to lose control". I dunno - if I saw that coming at me, I might "loose" control as well.........


Which is the approved emergency procedure for racers with engine problems; up and out of the racing "pack".

Fortuitously, yes. At the speed these planes are flying - way above the original design envelopes, some of them are trimmed down to all buggery, to keep to level flight.
......
Good analogy

[EJK]

http://news.msn.co.nz/glanceview/190117/air-show-crash-inflicts-mass-injuries.glance

Looks bad on MSN news.

[Swoop]

Was a T-28 Trojan, one of 6 Trojans in a display




they are far removed from what North American Aviation or Grumman etc designed in the '40s.
Well spotted typo of the T-28!:facepalm: Bling your way, good sir!
There is an interesting article in the latest CWD (http://www.classicwings.com/currentissue.html#Anchor4) magazine, regarding Sanders Aviation (http://www.sandersaircraft.com/). They specialise in race conversions but they are also putting ex-race machines back in to stock condition.

[nudemetalz]

No worries.
I thought it was yet another crash with one of those T-38 Talons, the small twin-engined training jets so had to check up.