Safety Horizon

[BuckBuck#1]

Twelve Seconds

Open road, nothing in front of you, straight as.

Stock crossing sign (or no sign)

How. What. Why – did s/he lose control?



Update 72hrs after this Original Post.

How. What. Why - did 'they' lose control?

A topic that perhaps was of interest to some but alas
I suppose human nature is like a lot of group rides, there is a tendency to stray.

[The Singing Chef]

Twelve Seconds

Open rode, nothing in front of you, straight as.

Stock crossing sign (or no sign)

How. What. Why – did s/he lose control?

Cow shit? Oil spill, Chain broke? engine seized? tyre blew out? s/he jumped off?

[DrunkenMistake]

Suzuki Squid? :innocent:

[BuckBuck#1]

Cow shit? Oil spill, Chain broke? engine seized? tyre blew out? s/he jumped off?

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. (all at the same time...and if so then...) Yes.

An open road in the country is different than downtown.

Traveling at 100kph your stopping distance is...oh well: when traveling behind a car or stock-truck is...oh well, but more importantly it is how far ahead can you see that enables you to anticipate.

Twelve seconds - count off the distance when next you ride.

[Hitcher]

How. What. Why – did s/he lose control?

Because s/he couldn't spell road?

[BuckBuck#1]

Dang. Probably too busy looking up the dictionary and texting.

[Latte]

at 100kph 12 seconds is ~330m (could be wrong, just rattled numbers in my head). Where/Who did this magical 12 seconds come from?

[bogan]

at 100kph 12 seconds is ~330m (could be wrong, just rattled numbers in my head). Where/Who did this magical 12 seconds come from?

12s sounds like a bloody long time. Used to be a guy here who could stop in 2 or something :innocent:

Or maybe the OP is referring to an accident that happened?

[Lurch]

Since when did KB become a podium for preachers?

..oh wait

[tigertim20]

Twelve Seconds

Open rode, nothing in front of you, straight as.

Stock crossing sign (or no sign)

How. What. Why – did s/he lose control?

animals ran out?
spontaineous rare anuerism?
drunk?
hawk hit them?
fell asleep?
tyre blew out?
engine lunched, wheels locked up?

[bluninja]

12s sounds like a bloody long time. Used to be a guy here who could stop in 2 or something :innocent:

Or maybe the OP is referring to an accident that happened?

I used to start from 0 kmh and cover 100m in under 12s.....it's a long time. A bike on a wet road (coeffcient of friction approx .5) should stop in less than 100 m. even with 1-2 seconds reaction and thinking time. So that would be about 6 seconds, so where has this 12 seconds come from?

[BuckBuck#1]

Twelve Seconds

Open rode, nothing in front of you, straight as.

Stock crossing sign (or no sign)

How. What. Why – did s/he lose control?

I thought it worthwhile to put a quandary question out there - there is no specific answer other than to be alert to hazard detection. Out on the country road traveling at 100kph the professional instructor refers to a 12 second horizon to constantly 'sweep out to and back from' being alert to potential hazards.

Yesterday for me it was a new baby lamb outside of the fence alongside a culvert. Seen at approximately 4 seconds.

[tigertim20]

the time and brain energy spent deciding how many seconds it is is time not spent on deciding the best avoidance technique, or the next hazard. . .

[blackdog]

An interesting question BB.

I am all for taking into account the greatest possible margin for safety. I am always looking as far forward as possible to identify hazards, and am a huge advocate of not having less visible road ahead than is required to stop.

12 seconds though? I think you are out to lunch.

Factually, I can stop from 100mph in substantially less than 5 seconds. I am not interested in finding out how fast I have to be going to take 12 seconds to stop.

As for ever having 12 seconds of clear road ahead to scan on NZ roads, it simply does not happen (midnight on Himitangi maybe, as an exception).

Who was it that suggested this '12 second' method to you? I wouldn't mind discussing NZ road and riding conditions with them.

[Deano]

Haha.

The 12 second rule is a pretty common practice taught by many driving instructors.

Google '12 second rule' (I can't copy and paste the address) - LTNZ is the first hit and explains it all.

[blackdog]

Haha.

The 12 second rule is a pretty common practice taught by many driving instructors.

Google '12 second rule' (I can't copy and paste the address) - LTNZ is the first hit and explains it all.

Thanks for that Dean. You learn something new everyday. What surprised me was how close in distance terms 12 seconds actually is. So in practise I have always been scanning that far ahead, but never realised the theory.

I am happily standing corrected.

[wysper]

at 100kph 12 seconds is ~330m (could be wrong, just rattled numbers in my head). Where/Who did this magical 12 seconds come from?

Same place as the magical 8 glasses of water I would suspect.

[bogan]

Haha.

The 12 second rule is a pretty common practice taught by many driving instructors.

Google '12 second rule' (I can't copy and paste the address) - LTNZ is the first hit and explains it all.

Doesn't explain what relevance the 12s actually has though, why not 10s? Not that I disagree with the message, it just seems over-specific, and under-justified.


Same place as the magical 8 glasses of water I would suspect.

nothing magical about colonics :innocent:

[James Deuce]

Just ride faster and you'll be past the issue before it becomes a problem.

[Usarka]

Twelve Seconds

Open rode, nothing in front of you, straight as.

Stock crossing sign (or no sign)

How. What. Why – did s/he maintain control and continue on his/her way?

[BuckBuck#1]

Haha.

The 12 second rule is a pretty common practice taught by many driving instructors.

Google '12 second rule' (I can't copy and paste the address) - LTNZ is the first hit and explains it all.

Thanks Deano.
Here's the link: About the 12 Second Rule (http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/roadcode/about-driving/safe-driving-tips.html)

[bluninja]

Having looked at the 12 second rule link...I think it's arse.

Not arse that you should be looking ahead, identifying potential hazards and planning so that you are prepared when you arrive. Just the 12 seconds thing. Smacks of a gimmicky slogan.

Also, all this looking around with lots of eye movement.....what a way to create fatigue. Isn't it better (generaly) to look ahead, and use your brain to switch your attention in your field of view?

Rather than 12 seconds you way as well say 'Be prepared, be vigilant'

[Katman]

Also, all this looking around with lots of eye movement.....what a way to create fatigue. Isn't it better (generaly) to look ahead, and use your brain to switch your attention in your field of view?



Staring at a point in the distance is the fastest thing to put you to sleep.

When the eyes are moving the brain is working.

[bogan]

Staring at a point in the distance is the fastest thing to put you to sleep.

When the eyes are moving the brain is working.

Bit of both I reckon, make sure you are aware enough to see things in you periphery, but also make sure to have a good look at potential hazards around you. Whats-his-name calls it floodlight and spotlight vision.

[bluninja]

My brain continues to work quite happily without my eyes moving much.....and the technique is one espoused by Keith Code in his books.

Strange that 'better (generally) to look ahead' becomes 'staring at a fixed point'

[Katman]

Bit of both I reckon,

I never said "ignore the distance".

Staring at it will see you in the shit though.

[Katman]

My brain continues to work quite happily without my eyes moving much.....

Bullshit.

Not happily enough.

[bluninja]

Bullshit.

Not happily enough.

Bullshit yourself. Just cos you can't do it, doesn't mean others can't, quite happily.

[Katman]

Bullshit yourself. Just cos you can't do it, doesn't mean others can't, quite happily.

You kid yourself all you like.

When your eyes aren't moving your brain is not thinking of the things it should be at the time.

[bogan]

I never said "ignore the distance".

Staring at it will see you in the shit though.

I know, it just sounded like you were saying you can only see what you're looking at directly. Which will get you in the shit too!

[bluninja]

You kid yourself all you like.

When your eyes aren't moving your brain is not thinking of the things it should be at the time.

Fine stay within your own limitations. Just a question to burst your bubble...explain why people with no visul sensory input (no eyes, no eye movement) continue to think clearly and remain conscious.

Let me also add, that it is you that repeatedly keeps bringing up no eye movement (staring) as being equal to 'better (generally) to look ahead'

[Katman]

Just a question to burst your bubble...explain why people with no visul sensory input (no eyes, no eye movement) continue to think clearly and remain conscious.



I bet they're not thinking about what is needed to deal with the continually changing environment that is a public road.

[bluninja]

I bet they're not thinking about what is needed to deal with the continually changing environment that is a public road.

Fail! try again. You have no idea have you? You just spout bullshit to cover your ignorance.

Try walking down a public pavement in town blindfolded with just a stick and your ears to keep you safe. Then tell me I bet they're not thinking about what is needed to deal with the continually changing environment that is a public road

Also whilst you're at it, try covering off how you keep coming back to the staring with no eye movement. You missed that out.....I wonder why.

[Katman]

Also, all this looking around with lots of eye movement.....what a way to create fatigue.

If eye movement makes you tired, motorcycles might not be for you.

[bluninja]

If eye movement makes you tired, motorcycles might not be for you.

I didn't explain that clearly...lots of large and continuous eye movement fatigues the eye muscles..... some people may fatigue their eyes such that their eye's aren't working as quickly when they need them. There is also the tendency for eye's to focus on movement and then the head turns to get the full binocular effect. So lots of continuous large eye movements and head movement. More fatigue, more chance of target fixation.

Let's try to explain with a real life situation that most bikers wold encounter often. You are riding behind a car through 5 km of twisties with double yellow lines. Do you :-

a) Keep flicking your eyes between the car in front and the distance all the time.
b) look ahead beyond the car, keeping the car in your visual field and only move your eyes to the area around the car if an event occurs where there is a potential hazard that you need to evaluate and deal with.

Me, I use option b, and I don't fall asleep whilst following. In fact i would say I am more aware of the environment and more alert.

So back to your statement 'I bet they're not thinking about what is needed to deal with the continually changing environment that is a public road.'

Do you actually have a cogent supportable response?

[Katman]

So back to your statement 'I bet they're not thinking about what is needed to deal with the continually changing environment that is a public road.'



Let me know when you've seen a motorcycle and rider being towed by a seeing eye dog.

[bluninja]

If eye movement makes you tired, motorcycles might not be for you.

Perhaps the reason I didn't have lots of crashes when I started motorcycling 31 years ago is that my brain is alert and my cognitive functions work well enough to keep me safe, whether I keep my eyes generally still or if I move them about.

After all your early mishaps, some people might say that motorcycling is not for you :innocent:

[bluninja]

Let me know when you've seen a motorcycle and rider being towed by a seeing eye dog.

Better than that. Look here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Baxter_(motorcyclist)). But don't stare at it too long.

Owned.

[Katman]

Perhaps the reason I didn't have lots of crashes when I started motorcycling 31 years ago is that my brain is alert and my cognitive functions work well enough to keep me safe, whether I keep my eyes generally still or if I move them about.



You're so retarded you don't even know your moving them. :bleh:

[bluninja]

You're so retarded you don't even know your moving them. :bleh:

Oh dear, the name calling, it sames you are unable to sustain your stance with reason and logic.

[Katman]

Oh dear, the name calling, it sames you are unable to sustain your stance with reason and logic.

Oh dear, someone done broke your funny bone.

[bluninja]

Someone done broke your funny bone.

Retards don't have funny bones :yes:

[That looks like fun]

What a shame that an intelligent thread with some good ideas is reduced from intelligent debate down to a slanging match about who has the biggest dick. :shit:


Oops sorry thought I wasn't on KB site sorry :facepalm: as you were :innocent:

[Katman]

What a shame that an intelligent thread with some good ideas is reduced from intelligent debate down to a slanging match about who has the biggest dick. :shit:


I have. <hgvhgvhjv>

[bluninja]

What a shame that an intelligent thread with some good ideas is reduced from intelligent debate down to a slanging match about who has the biggest dick. :shit:


Oops sorry thought I wasn't on KB site sorry :facepalm: as you were :innocent:

My end is intelligent...but it's very small....so I have a big bike to compensate.

[Berries]

My end is intelligent...but it's very small....so I have a big bike to compensate.
Maybe if you stare at it for 12 seconds.

[bluninja]

Maybe if you stare at it for 12 seconds.

12 seconds? can I borrow your fingers to count as I can't get my boots off.

[Hitcher]

I thought it was Nigella Lawson that had a 12 second rule. Or was it Oprah?

[bluninja]

I thought it was less than 5 seconds on the floor and you are ok to eat it....is that 12 seconds now?

[Berries]

Anything over 8 seconds and they are probably unconscious so go for your life.

[Hitcher]

I thought it was less than 5 seconds on the floor and you are ok to eat it....is that 12 seconds now?

That is the 7 second rule.

I think the 12 second rule is the one where if you finish quicker than that, you have to apologise.

[Hitcher]

I worry about that Nigella


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtS2Ikk7A9I&feature=player_embedded#!

[BuckBuck#1]

Twelve Seconds

Open road, nothing in front of you, straight as.

Stock crossing sign (or no sign)

How. What. Why – did s/he lose control?



Update 72hrs after this Original Post.

How. What. Why - did 'they' lose control?

A topic that perhaps was of interest to some but alas
I suppose human nature is like a lot of group rides, there is a tendency to stray.

Perhaps this can now be sent to 'Pointless Drivel' - Do it now and send it to PD.

[Berries]

Well to be fair your quandary was a bit shit. How/what/why did he/she lose control?

Who?

[Lurch]

Well to be fair your quandary was a bit shit. How/what/why did he/she lose control?

Who?

More imporantly why do we give a fuck? Some people around here are so busy analysing other people's riding its amazing they have any time for their own.

[Zedder]

Thanks Buck Buck for posting something that was, I thought, of value to bikers and which was not taken as a personal attack on my riding ability.

[awa355]

If you are on short straights, winding roads, vehicles ahead, how the hell can anyone keep 12 seconds of visibility ahead of you? Unless you get off and push.

At 120kph, 12 sec's covers a lot of ground. ( not that I've ever gone 120kph).

[nodrog]

Can all of you cunts who are counting and doing sums while riding their motorcycles, please stay the fuck away from me.

Thanks.

[Zedder]

If you are on short straights, winding roads, vehicles ahead, how the hell can anyone keep 12 seconds of visibility ahead of you? Unless you get off and push.

At 120kph, 12 sec's covers a lot of ground. ( not that I've ever gone 120kph).

The message here would be: Drive/ride to the conditions.

[pritch]

"spontaineous rare anuerism"?

Should that be spontaneous rear anuerism?
Sort of like a brain fart?

[Crasherfromwayback]

When the eyes are moving the brain is working.

Some peoples anyway...

[BuckBuck#1]

12 seconds though? I think you are out to lunch…
Who was it that suggested this '12 second' method to you? I wouldn't mind discussing NZ road and riding conditions with them.



The 12 second rule is a pretty common practice taught by many driving instructors.


Thanks for that Dean. You learn something new everyday. What surprised me was how close in distance terms 12 seconds actually is. So in practise I have always been scanning that far ahead, but never realised the theory.

I am happily standing corrected.

Seeing as my request to throw this thread into the Pointless Drivel has been ignored by a PM request to a Moderator, then I will continue in a positive spirit.

Blackdog, if and when we ever have lunch, it will be a twelve second iced-coffee, then on the road again. I am pleased that you acknowledged the theory.

Ride safe and enjoy

[Katman]

Seeing as my request to throw this thread into the Pointless Drivel has been ignored by a PM request to a Moderator, then I will continue in a positive spirit.



Stop being so ridiculously precious.

So the thread includes a discussion about the merits of eye movement. Hardly sufficient cause to start throwing your toys out of the cot.

[BuckBuck#1]

You're so retarded you don't even know your moving them. :bleh:


Oh dear, the name calling, it sames you are unable to sustain your stance with reason and logic.


Oh dear, someone done broke your funny bone.


Retards don't have funny bones :yes:


What a shame that an intelligent thread with some good ideas is reduced from intelligent debate down to a slanging match about who has the biggest dick. :shit:


Oops sorry thought I wasn't on KB site sorry :facepalm: as you were :innocent:



Thanks Buck Buck for posting something that was, I thought, of value to bikers and which was not taken as a personal attack on my riding ability.

Thanks for your supporting comments over the recent weeks Katman it was much appreciated.

However in this particular thread regarding Safety Horizon, both you and bluninja may have taken away from the "Survival Skills" Forum theme.

As the thread originator I believed the theme was unnecessarily side-tracked, and therefore the Moderator was asked to throw the thread into Pointless Drivel.

[Katman]

Quite frankly your original post was pure gibberish.

[PrincessBandit]

... then I will continue in a positive spirit..............

That's more like it. There will be some good discussion come out of the OP regardless of how "inane" it might appear.

I have found that chewing gum (or pretending to) helps keep my eyes open and focus on the road when fatigue starts to kick in.
As for the 12 second rule, staring at any one spot regardless of distance, will eventually mesmerise you - eyes lose focus, start to drift off...splat. Therefore I think it's more a case of continually scanning that amount of stretch ahead of you for warning signs of untoward obstacles.

[bluninja]

Twelve Seconds

Open road, nothing in front of you, straight as.

Stock crossing sign (or no sign)

How. What. Why – did s/he lose control?



Quite frankly your original post was pure gibberish.

My goodness we agree on something.:innocent:

[bluninja]

In a positive spirit.....

Who cares if it's 12 seconds, 278 metres at 100kmh or the far horizon, what good methods are around to contain the flow of information so that one can ride and react to potential and real hazards without coming a to a complete halt or becoming so overloaded with information that you can no longer react properly when a hazard presents itself?

I work on a few simple principles.
1) Make sure I have my tyres on the best road surface available.
2) Position myself on the road to gain as full a picture of potential hazards as early as possible, but without breaking rule 1.
3) Be able to stop in the distance I can see to be clear, or have an escape route.