I go to bed every night and dream of another recession

[racefactory]

''I go to bed every night and dream of another recession''

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/lqN3amj6AcE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Heartless cunt or refreshing honesty? Your thoughts.

[Teflon]

Seems like a good cunt to me.

Time to make some coin?

http://www.babypips.com/blogs/piponomics/is-new-zealand-in-a-sweet-spot.html

[JimO]

apparently it was a scam

[racefactory]

apparently it was a scam

It's not a scam, that's just due to a few zealous conspiracy idiots who are so deluded as to think this guy looks like the Yes Men. He's just a day trader.

[george formby]

The only surprising thing for me is that people do not realise that traders just make money from the markets.It is not their businesses that make up the markets. Same as how many people do not actually realise banks are businesses, just like Mcdonalds.

Good on him for telling it like it is I say.

Goodness, people make money from wars too.:shit:

[HenryDorsetCase]

is "recession" code for "Boobies"? cos it it is, me too.

[BMWST?]

i think the most shocking thing is he talks like its a game.He seems to think anyone can play the game,but it is only the people with serious ammounts of cash who can play his game at the time of a real collapse.I dont think there will be much credit available this time to play his games.

[mashman]

His job it to make money... Heartless Cunt! and a fuckin idiot believing that money is going to be worth anything once it turns to shit (something he all but predicts). In fact he's quite happy to turn the screw by making more money. So yeah, Heartless cunt.

A 50% writedown for Greece? Seems a tad unfair given that they've had 2 multi-billion $$$ bailouts. Where did that money go? Back into the market and straight into the pockets of those with money :rofl:. A bunch of heartless cunts and fuckin idiots.

Where are they getting this 2 trillion euro from for the bailout? Some heartless cunts are going to create it out of thin air. That makes the sheeple fuckin idiots too.

You can make a lot of money from a crash. And they wonder why the recovery is slow... anyone can make money :facepalm:, sure, the guy with $10,000 in his bank account (which won't exist next year according to Mr honest there :blink:) will earn vastly less than the guy with $50 million etc... and they wonder why the recovery is slow. All of that money comes from somewhere (our bank accounts and govt coffers)... and that causes more to suffer, because the heartless cunts and fuckin idiots don't give a shit about the huge ratio of suffering they perpetuate, probably 1 in a million if not waaaaay more... the benefit of 1 at the cost of 1 million. What a bunch of heartless cunts.

Goldman Sachs rules the world??? Well that answers that question then. A bank rules the world, who would have thought :shifty:, which means we don't live in a democracy. So those who believe that we live in a democracy are WRONG! and deluded to the point that you can only be seen as sheeple.

Markets have always been ruled by fear. George Soros "became known as "the Man Who Broke the Bank of England" after he made a reported $1 billion during the 1992 Black Wednesday UK currency crises" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Soros)... who footed the bill so that he could make a $billion in 1 day? How far back did that set the UK economy? Like he gives a shit.

Heartless Cunts surrounded by fuckin idiots more commonly known as sheeple... but as long as you're alright eh...

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, that's better... for now!

[mashman]

This is, unfortunately how it works.

Take Christchurch for instance. We'll forgo the insurance malarky and concentrate on what is going to happen, not hypothetically, but how Christchurch will be rebuilt.

The govt will require extra money to do it. It will be "cheaper" to find this money through some form of local investment.

We will use local resources, that's manpower (designers, builders, council officials etc...) and materials (wood, woofing materials, glass, concrete etc...). Yet we need to borrow money from overseas to pay for those local resources, and unfortunately (big unfortunately), we need to sit and wait for this money to become available. Why?

There is no other reason, other than there isn't enough money available to do it. A HUGE part of that reason is because money flows out of this country like a long term sufferer of Delhi belly. They are undeniable facts, not myths, not conspiracies, but FACTS. The govt acknowledges this.

In the meantime the people of Christchurch suffer the consequences and have been suffering the consequences for over a year now.

The resources and want to rebuild are there/here, the money isn't, because heartless cunts like the guy in teh vid are too busy sucking money out of the country and gambling (there is no other word for it) with it overseas. If that isn't fucked up, I really don't know what is.

That's a simple real life example. It's UTTERLY fuckin bleating tragic... and all because the world is financially driven. You idiots that decry a free local economy in NZ are out of your tiny minds. It's only Socialism if you believe it to be so, it's only Communism if you believe it to be so, it's only a democracy if you believe it to be so (despite all of the evidence to the contrary... who sets austerity agenda? It certainly isn't the govt)...

Hiding behind your labels (nothing more than pithy denial), you condemn people to lives of poverty, claiming that they could do something about it if they really wanted to, where there aren't enough jobs FACT (even with hundreds of thousand of willingly unemployed) and there isn't enough money available that a person with 2 jobs can still be considered in poverty. Absolutely fuckin pathetic beyond comprehension. You are not the rational logical beings you believe yourself to be. You are sheeple! Fuckin "You People"... Or perhaps it should be Fuckin "Ewe People"!!!!

Ahhhhh that's better... for now!

[Vacquer0]

Right on, Mash. Tragic.

[racefactory]

The resources and want to rebuild are there/here, the money isn't, because heartless cunts like the guy in teh vid are too busy sucking money out of the country and gambling (there is no other word for it) with it overseas. If that isn't fucked up, I really don't know what is.



Basically capitalism has to fail anyway. As machine automation continues to replace human labour (which it is doing at an ever increasing rate) people won't be able to get money that we currently require them to have just to be able to access the worlds resources and provide for their basic needs. It is acceptable in this society that one is left to starve or die if they can't get money.

We simply cannot create enough jobs and eventually it will all have to change. A recent example would be the 1 million Chinese workers at Foxconn that are being laid off and replaced by machines that will do a more efficient job. How long do you think until checkout operators no longer exist at Packnsave? Last year Robotic orders went up 30% in Europe, 70% in USA and 113% in Asia. Now consider that none of those economies are currently creating enough jobs as it is to be sustainable, then consider that ever more of those currently working will get replaced. Capitalism is going to price itself out of the market.

We can either watch it go slowly and suffer with it as more lose their jobs and fall into poverty due to the imaginary money barrier, or make a conscious decision to unleash our technological capability and create a global abundance.

[mashman]

Basically capitalism has to fail anyway. As machine automation continues to replace human labour (which it is doing at an ever increasing rate) people won't be able to get money that we currently require them to have just to be able to access the worlds resources and provide for their basic needs. It is acceptable in this society that one is left to starve or die if they can't get money.

We simply cannot create enough jobs and eventually it will all have to change. A recent example would be the 1 million Chinese workers at Foxconn that are being laid off and replaced by machines that will do a more efficient job. How long do you think until checkout operators no longer exist at Packnsave? Last year Robotic orders went up 30% in Europe, 70% in USA and 113% in Asia. Now consider that none of those economies are currently creating enough jobs as it is to be sustainable, then consider that ever more of those currently working will get replaced. Capitalism is going to price itself out of the market.

We can either watch it go slowly and suffer with it as more lose their jobs and fall into poverty due to the imaginary money barrier, or make a conscious decision to unleash our technological capability and create a global abundance.

Aye... the funny thing is, is that the exceptional minds of our time have allowed it to happen with absolutely no forethought for those who they replace. It's business, not personal being their guiding light.

War gives us technology??? WTF... are you out of your fuckin mind. People die because of a need to further technological advancement? You've got to be kidding me... who truly buys that shit! If there is a human requirement for something, obviously the minds that turn that requirement into reality using technology exist... otherwise the "war machines" wouldn't get built. War is yet another pathetic excuse to waste vast sums of money to create gadgets that are used for no other purpose than fucking things up.

What could the genius generation create if war wasn't the goal and budget wasn't a factor?

We have everything we need apart from enough money to achieve it! Smart people exist no longer to further the cause of humanity... but to destroy it for profit.

http://www.friendship-quotes.info/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/albert-einstein-intuition.jpg

[racefactory]

I think coming back to today though, more people need to start further realising and understanding what the trader in the video is saying- 'governments don't rule the world, Goldman Sachs rules the world'. Couldn't be more true.

[mashman]

heh, he was quite frank... he did start with the market being fuelled by fear too :rofl:. Your govt is helpless, a bank rules the world. Who woulda thought eh :rofl:

It is one of my greatest concerns/fears... not that it will ever happen or anyone would be so stupid that they'd pull the "plug" overnight... but it's entirely possible and as simple as the flick of a switch to turn what we have into hell in 30 seconds. I'd love to not have to wait for the govt to show some true leadership, but I won't hold my breath and will hope for the best IF it goes tits and economic meltdown kicks in hard. We're simply not prepared for it.

[BMWST?]

wasnt goldman sachs one of the instututions that got a bailout?

[pete376403]

wasnt goldman sachs one of the instututions that got a bailout?

Indeed it was - and then they promptly gave the execs huge bonuses.

[mashman]

wasnt goldman sachs one of the instututions that got a bailout?

Yes. But they paid it back :blink:...

The White (Goldman Sachs) House (http://the-classic-liberal.com/white-goldman-sachs-house/)

[Teflon]

wasnt goldman sachs one of the instututions that got a bailout?
247750

sdjkfnhsdijkfnxjkfnsdkl

[Woodman]

is money real?

[Brian d marge]

said on many a thread, how to deal with this, yes the markets rule the world but only if you give it value, a piss head ( me ) would give more value to a pint of antifreeze , than shares in Wanamaker.com
my vege garden, and a move into aquaponics, paid of house and no debt what so ever and no desire for money, should reduce the biting winds of the economy
what boils my blood, is people who either through ignorance, or greed are prepared to standby, justify, regimes who promote inequality and poverty ... (aka American economics )
I will quite happily promote desent (s or c .....oh well ) and pull the trigger on any Gordon gecko ......

anyone who has been a courier in London, has seen the financial institutions at work and new Zealand economy is chicken feed .....

stephen

[mashman]

said on many a thread, how to deal with this, yes the markets rule the world but only if you give it value, a piss head ( me ) would give more value to a pint of antifreeze , than shares in Wanamaker.com
my vege garden, and a move into aquaponics, paid of house and no debt what so ever and no desire for money, should reduce the biting winds of the economy
what boils my blood, is people who either through ignorance, or greed are prepared to standby, justify, regimes who promote inequality and poverty ... (aka American economics )
I will quite happily promote desent (s or c .....oh well ) and pull the trigger on any Gordon gecko ......

anyone who has been a courier in London, has seen the financial institutions at work and new Zealand economy is chicken feed .....

stephen

Oh dear, my name's Gordon... hope I'm not a gecko.

[Vacquer0]

You seen this one Mash? Personally, I find it disturbing under any circumstances. Perhaps we have as peasants, moved from "closing my checking account in protest" to "torches and pitchforks" time.

Citibank Collection Agents Implicated In Debtor’s Death

http://www.credit.com/blog/2011/08/citibank-collection-agents-implicated-in-debtors-death/

[mashman]

You seen this one Mash? Personally, I find it disturbing under any circumstances. Perhaps we have as peasants, moved from "closing my checking account in protest" to "torches and pitchforks" time.

Citibank Collection Agents Implicated In Debtor’s Death

http://www.credit.com/blog/2011/08/citibank-collection-agents-implicated-in-debtors-death/

:shit:... poor guy... I see from the comments that that isn't the first time either. I gotta say I'd rather do the closing my account thing... torches and pitchforks is kinda final.

[rainman]

Heartless cunt or refreshing honesty? Your thoughts.

Doesn't have to be either or.


.. but as long as you're alright eh...

That's the essential problem - we've become less connected to a sense of belonging to a community and are more driven by individual or family unit concerns, fuck the rest. We are turning unto sociopaths.


A HUGE part of that reason is because money flows out of this country like a long term sufferer of Delhi belly. They are undeniable facts, not myths, not conspiracies, but FACTS. The govt acknowledges this.

Spot on. But it's alright, that nice Mr Key is going to sell a few more assets and it'll all be right. Oh wait...


Basically capitalism has to fail anyway. As machine automation continues to replace human labour (which it is doing at an ever increasing rate)...

We can either watch it go slowly and suffer with it as more lose their jobs and fall into poverty due to the imaginary money barrier, or make a conscious decision to unleash our technological capability and create a global abundance.


wasnt goldman sachs one of the instututions that got a bailout?

I took his comments to mean that the investor class (particularly the big investment banks like GS) were more powerful than our political institutions - which is true - and not that he was specifically talking GS. Although, NZ vs GS, they could just about buy the entire place out of petty cash.


is money real?

No more than anything else. But it's a pretty important proxy for real stuff for most people.


said on many a thread, how to deal with this, yes the markets rule the world but only if you give it value...

my vege garden, and a move into aquaponics, paid of house and no debt what so ever and no desire for money, should reduce the biting winds of the economy


That's the cure right there - the only solution to this is to move yourself, your family and your community away from the normal state of indentured servitude we all live under as western consumer droids. Real freedom comes from growing/hunting/foraging your own food, trading your surplus, building solid social capital - not from being a cubicle slave and buying a flash house, a 65 inch telly and a grouse V8 on tick.

BTW, it's "dissent" you're looking for, I think.

[Brett]

Screw that. I am focussing on a hybrid of making wealth/becoming more sustainable. Killing off our debt (mostly our mortgage), making ourselves more sustainable at home (have enough land to really produce whatever we should need to eat) but then also looking at some serious money making avenues. I want my cake, and I want to eat it too. I am not afraid to say that I want the luxuries and freedoms that having wealth can bring.

[mashman]

Screw that. I am focussing on a hybrid of making wealth/becoming more sustainable. Killing off our debt (mostly our mortgage), making ourselves more sustainable at home (have enough land to really produce whatever we should need to eat) but then also looking at some serious money making avenues. I want my cake, and I want to eat it too. I am not afraid to say that I want the luxuries and freedoms that having wealth can bring.

Wouldn't you be able to have the same things without financial wealth?

[Big Dave]

Wouldn't you be able to have the same things without financial wealth?

The Communism thing worked out real well too, hey.

[mashman]

The Communism thing worked out real well too, hey.

:rofl: they did it wrong :blink:

[YellowDog]

Apparental it was a HOAX:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/8792829/BBC-financial-expert-Alessio-Rastani-Im-an-attention-seeker-not-a-trader.html

Having traded in said market for around 7 years, on an amature basis, buying and selling on action derived sentiment plus rumours; and of course some factual Level 2 pricing where I could sit on the back of the GS type traders: Fortunately I recovered from this serious illness and got the hell out of it (almost completely).

So IMO there is some factual truth in the scenario being presented however the interview was given to create negative sentiment and provide some opportunities to greedy people to make larger amounts of money.

The capitalist system won't fail. It is not in anyone's interests for it to do so. The present level of crap is showing that some are better at managing debt than others. NZ has miniscule financial problems compared with Europe and the USA. The countries that are failing at managing debt are being educated in how to play the same game as the others. Obviously the collateral damage is that some will go hungry.

The USA is not a good place to be poor. AND don't they know it: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-15140671

[racefactory]

Wouldn't you be able to have the same things without financial wealth?

Indeed anyone can. It's just corporations through marketing creating false needs. Amazing how malleable the human mind can be.

[mashman]

Apparental it was a HOAX:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/8792829/BBC-financial-expert-Alessio-Rastani-Im-an-attention-seeker-not-a-trader.html

Having traded in said market for around 7 years, on an amature basis, buying and selling on action derived sentiment plus rumours; and of course some factual Level 2 pricing where I could sit on the back of the GS type traders: Fortunately I recovered from this serious illness and got the hell out of it (almost completely).

So IMO there is some factual truth in the scenario being presented however the interview was given to create negative sentiment and provide some opportunities to greedy people to make larger amounts of money.

The capitalist system won't fail. It is not in anyone's interests for it to do so. The present level of crap is showing that some are better at managing debt than others. NZ has miniscule financial problems compared with Europe and the USA. The countries that are failing at managing debt are being educated in how to play the same game as the others. Obviously the collateral damage is that some will go hungry.

The USA is not a good place to be poor. AND don't they know it: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-15140671

heh... quality. Although I disagree that the capitalist system won't fail, primarily because it already is. NZ may not seem to have financial problems (compared to other countries), but IF the US goes tits, that'll soon change. I'd rather not see NZ society be at the whims of something that happens in another country.



Indeed anyone can. It's just corporations through advertising creating false needs. Amazing how malleable the human mind can be.


I guess that's somewhat true... but if something is available and you'd quite like it and have the means to get it, legal or not, then the advertising means diddly, other than letting you know that a certain manufacturer/seller has or stocks that product. You're right about the pressure of being told that you need "stuff", but that's marketing and there's still a "choice" at the end of the day. I had a brief stint in sales whilst at Uni, but refused to play the "they really need it" game and the associated the tricks of the trade they used, hence brief... I did ok, but couldn't stomach the culture.

[Big Dave]

[QUOTE=


That's the cure right there - the only solution to this is to move yourself, your family and your community away from the normal state of indentured servitude we all live under as western consumer droids. Real freedom comes from growing/hunting/foraging your own food, trading your surplus, building solid social capital - not from being a cubicle slave and buying a flash house, a 65 inch telly and a grouse V8 on tick.

[/QUOTE]
:wings:


You should hunt baloney - you're an expert!

[puddytat]

:wings:


You should hunt baloney - you're an expert!

And so are you supposedly.....
You have a real problem with anyone who doesnt fit youre strict agenda dont you?
You slag off everyone who might like to think of trying a life somewhat different, is that because you dont have a choice in your own? Is it the fat mortgage or the fat wife that youre not happy with or your Queenslander beergut?
Man, you really dont deserve that avatar,THE DUDE would think youre an asshole:yes:

[Big Dave]

Excellent! I laughed at the internet.

[puddytat]

:D Well that didnt work did it.

[Big Dave]

It's just KB banter hey. Like I really give a ferk. 'Strict agenda'! :sunny:

[Brian d marge]

My house has all the mod cons, , the big screen TV that the kids watch, I don't and is scratched
a microwave that is related to sky net and has been live since earlier this year, but I have a job that I enjoy etc, use a bicycle most of the time
can't quite remove my dependence on oil but I'm working on it....
if tomorrow it all went tits up, I think I would be alright...
there are a few things I would like to do...gold, convert my savings into gold,
food, have a bit more in the cupboard..
rice ....grow some
can't think of any other skills one might need

stephen

[Big Dave]

At the moment we have hardly any furniture - it's pretty much all on the high seas. Laptop, TV, Dog and a few hired items only. Otherwise empty house. Totally ferkin' alternative hey!

Co-pilot is watching the plasma box (which we bought - cash!) and I've got AC/DC pumping in the headphones.
'What are you chuckling about so boisterously' she says.
'It's the just intarnet Darlin'' I wheezed.

[Big Dave]

]
Man, you really dont deserve that avatar,

There ya go!

Rat Fink is on the other 'puter.

[Teflon]

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/atfNL0_KAcs" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>


A computer expert has described his astonishment at seeing the BBC's 24-hour news channel interview a taxi driver - in the mistaken belief it was him.

Guy Kewney - a white, bearded technology expert - was astonished to see himself appear on screen as a black man with an apparent French accent. He was even more shocked to see himself unable to answer basic questions about the legal battle between the Beatles' Apple Corps and Apple Computer over the use of an apple symbol. ,.,..,.,,.,.

[YellowDog]

At the moment we have hardly any furniture - it's pretty much all on the high seas. Laptop, TV, Dog and a few hired items only. Otherwise empty house. Totally ferkin' alternative hey!

Co-pilot is watching the plasma box (which we bought - cash!) and I've got AC/DC pumping in the headphones.
'What are you chuckling about so boisterously' she says.
'It's the just intarnet Darlin'' I wheezed.

"It's life Jim, but not as we know it"


We can all eventually say "I told you so" if we wait long enough. It doesn't make us right or provide any evidence of a tried and tested alternative.

I do however feel that the worldwide consumerism culture is a bad thing for mankind and strong regulation or moderation is required to slow it down. Ain't gonna happen though :facepalm:

[Big Dave]

[QUOTE=YellowDog;1130167435
I do however feel that the worldwide consumerism culture is a bad thing for mankind and strong regulation or moderation is required to slow it down. Ain't gonna happen though :facepalm:[/QUOTE]

The arse falling out of has had some self-regulating effect in the Northern hemisphere.

I'd like to see the next generation have housing made affordable in some way.

[Brett]

Wouldn't you be able to have the same things without financial wealth?

If you don't look after yourself, don't expect anyone else too. Yes, theoretically I could have A house, A car/transport, necessary food, adequate clothing etc etc.

However for myself and my family, I want a NICE house, a car I enjoy driving (on the lookout for Audi RS4 Avant in black at the moment :innocent:), a bike that makes me grin from ear to ear, clothes that make me like the way I look, food that I both enjoy and that optimises my health, premium health care etc etc.
Do I absolutely need these things? Hell no, I can live with less, a lot less, and have done for extended periods of time. No big deal. However, I aspire to more. I don't want it given to me, I want to earn it with my ingenuity and hard work. Once I do earn it, I will/do also give back to those in need. There is a helluva lot of truth in the saying that "to whom much is given, much is expected". I believe that one day I will be judged for how I used the resources entrusted to me. This keeps my natural human greed and selfishness in check (a little bit).

[Brett]

Indeed anyone can. It's just corporations through marketing creating false needs. Amazing how malleable the human mind can be.

I find that to be a bit cynical. Humans are natural acquirers, it is partly what helps our species to progress. If we didn't want more and better, many technological advancements would not have occured. It is when this is allowed to run rampant in people without a social conscience that the dark side really comes out. That is also a very antiquated way of viewing marketing. With the advent of modern day tools and mediums for communication (FB, twitter, blogs, etc etc) the consumer very much is gaining control. A more accurate and modern way of viewing marketing now days is looking at how companies can work with the consumer to ensure that value is enhanced/created across the entire augmented product. Doesn't mean that there are no bad eggs, but the last few years has seen a huge shift in marketing strategy with corporates and companies being held much more to account for their actions and products. I think that we the consumers are molding the companies as much as they are molding us at this point in time.

[oneofsix]

I find that to be a bit cynical. Humans are natural acquirers, it is partly what helps our species to progress. If we didn't want more and better, many technological advancements would not have occured. It is when this is allowed to run rampant in people without a social conscience that the dark side really comes out. That is also a very antiquated way of viewing marketing. With the advent of modern day tools and mediums for communication (FB, twitter, blogs, etc etc) the consumer very much is gaining control. A more accurate and modern way of viewing marketing now days is looking at how companies can work with the consumer to ensure that value is enhanced/created across the entire augmented product. Doesn't mean that there are no bad eggs, but the last few years has seen a huge shift in marketing strategy with corporates and companies being held much more to account for their actions and products. I think that we the consumers are molding the companies as much as they are molding us at this point in time.

You need to spin that to Adidas. I suspect Cadbury got the point, or did they, or have they just become more circumspect?

[Brett]

You need to spin that to Adidas. I suspect Cadbury got the point, or did they, or have they just become more circumspect?

Their brands have taken a fuckin battering. Cadbury lost a LOT of business over the palm oil debarkle. I don't know about the losses Adidas has had over their not so little pricing hooha, but they certainly looked like a bunch of tits and their management really were made to look like idiots. Unfortunately, the extent of that issue was largely contained to NZ which is a rather small market. Unfortunately, I think that Adidas got away lightly unfortunately. If I was CEO, I would have fired a few people over that

[mashman]

If you don't look after yourself, don't expect anyone else too. Yes, theoretically I could have A house, A car/transport, necessary food, adequate clothing etc etc.

However for myself and my family, I want a NICE house, a car I enjoy driving (on the lookout for Audi RS4 Avant in black at the moment :innocent:), a bike that makes me grin from ear to ear, clothes that make me like the way I look, food that I both enjoy and that optimises my health, premium health care etc etc.
Do I absolutely need these things? Hell no, I can live with less, a lot less, and have done for extended periods of time. No big deal. However, I aspire to more. I don't want it given to me, I want to earn it with my ingenuity and hard work. Once I do earn it, I will/do also give back to those in need. There is a helluva lot of truth in the saying that "to whom much is given, much is expected". I believe that one day I will be judged for how I used the resources entrusted to me. This keeps my natural human greed and selfishness in check (a little bit).

Your family could still have nice things, as could everyone elses family. Why would anyone have to go without if money wasn't a factor? Build everything to the highest standard, once. I'm not questioning your motives as we all have thoughts about that which we can't afford (at the time). As you say, for some it's a driving factor. Took me 7 years to get the Prila.

If money isn't a factor, the brain drain would probably be much less of problem. Exceptional doctors wouldn't need to feck off overseas and leave us with just the great ones, same for teachers, IT geeks, the world class business people etc... giving your your "first class" healthcare, education etc... in fact they'd have to redefine "first class" for New Zealand, as it would be exceptional in comparison to the "first class" countries... or somefink like that :innocent: We may even develop a car industry that would surpass the best that the world can offer... who knows, but we wouldn't be limited by money.



(on the lookout for Audi RS4 Avant in black at the moment)


NOMS (but I'd like red)

[mashman]

You need to spin that to Adidas. I suspect Cadbury got the point, or did they, or have they just become more circumspect?

Aye... Did it stop Nestle? Has BP gone out of business? We're a tiny market, and "they" know it

[Big Dave]

If


And there's the rhubarb.
You need a zombie apocalypse.

[mashman]

And there's the rhubarb.
You need a zombie apocalypse.

Yeah, Nah... I just need the current Zombies to realise that they aren't

[puddytat]

Im quite surprised that some nutter somewhere,instead of taking it out on his workmates or classmates hasnt gone "postal" at Goldman Sachs or some other dastardly corporation.....maybe its just a matter of time?:blip:

[YellowDog]

To the idealists I say: Unfortunately all those goodies would not exist if it were not for the capitalist system that runs the world. Some seem to think that you can have both, but you can't as they are interlinked.

Your well made computer with floppy disc drive etc. is obsolete, as are most of the other items, including your trusty Travant motorcar.

The items we lust after cost lots of cash and are made, developed, redeveloped, and improved so they are even more attractive; for those able to earn lots of cash.

That's why we don't run a nationwide Kibbutz:

http://www.japoland.pl/jp/imgs/life/car/travant.jpg

[mashman]

To the idealists I say: Unfortunately all those goodies would not exist if it were not for the capitalist system that runs the world. Some seem to think that you can have both, but you can't as they are interlinked.

Your well made computer with floppy disc drive etc. is obsolete, as is most of the other items, including your trusty Travant motorcar.

The items we lust after cost lots of cash and are made, developed, redeveloped, and improved so they are even more attractive; for those able to earn lots of cash.

That's why we don't run a nationwide Kibbutz:


fuckn Zombie :bleh:

Of course they'd exist. Do you recklon these things were developed with capitalism in mind? Some maybe, but by no means all... We are innovative by nature, always have been. We wouldn't have had 5 variations of the iphone, by now we'd have probably been on the equivalent of version 20 and it would have been the first release, PC's probably woulda died out 10 years ago. There would be no need to have to go out an buy a brand new hoover just because the new one has an anti-allergin feature, it would have been designed with that in mind etc... capitalism, imho, has slowed the whole process down and given us way more junk than a non capitalist attempt at techno evolution would have...

[Brett]

Your family could still have nice things, as could everyone elses family. Why would anyone have to go without if money wasn't a factor? Build everything to the highest standard, once. I'm not questioning your motives as we all have thoughts about that which we can't afford (at the time). As you say, for some it's a driving factor. Took me 7 years to get the Prila.

If money isn't a factor, the brain drain would probably be much less of problem. Exceptional doctors wouldn't need to feck off overseas and leave us with just the great ones, same for teachers, IT geeks, the world class business people etc... giving your your "first class" healthcare, education etc... in fact they'd have to redefine "first class" for New Zealand, as it would be exceptional in comparison to the "first class" countries... or somefink like that :innocent: We may even develop a car industry that would surpass the best that the world can offer... who knows, but we wouldn't be limited by money.



NOMS (but I'd like red)

I follow your logic and theory completely, and yes it *would* be nice, but unfortunately, it was tried by a few socialist countries and didn't work. There are just far too many factors to list and they are exactly the ones that brought down communism, greed at the higher management levels, those who have better work ethics than others, limited resources etc etc.
It's the same reason why some people are poor (not all) and some are well off. Some are just willing to work harder to better their position than those around them.


Aye... Did it stop Nestle? Has BP gone out of business? We're a tiny market, and "they" know it
Unfortunately, this is too true. But their time will come. Unfortunately they are doing a whole lot of damage in the meantime. (to the environment, to their consumers and ultimately to their brand).

[YellowDog]

fuckn Zombie :bleh:

Of course they'd exist. Do you recklon these things were developed with capitalism in mind? Some maybe, but by no means all... We are innovative by nature, always have been. We wouldn't have had 5 variations of the iphone, by now we'd have probably been on the equivalent of version 20 and it would have been the first release, PC's probably woulda died out 10 years ago. There would be no need to have to go out an buy a brand new hoover just because the new one has an anti-allergin feature, it would have been designed with that in mind etc... capitalism, imho, has slowed the whole process down and given us way more junk than a non capitalist attempt at techno evolution would have...

We'll just have to agree to differ on that one :shutup:

[mashman]

I follow your logic and theory completely, and yes it *would* be nice, but unfortunately, it was tried by a few socialist countries and didn't work. There are just far too many factors to list and they are exactly the ones that brought down communism, greed at the higher management levels, those who have better work ethics than others, limited resources etc etc.
It's the same reason why some people are poor (not all) and some are well off. Some are just willing to work harder to better their position than those around them.

Unfortunately, this is too true. But their time will come. Unfortunately they are doing a whole lot of damage in the meantime. (to the environment, to their consumers and ultimately to their brand).

What socialist countries? Was the local economy entirely free in those countries?

Brand really doesn't mean anything negative these days though does it. I agree it can get damaged, but unfortunately there seems to be enough money behind the corporates, and influence, that a big brand can wear the loss and wait for the inevitability of human beings to forget about what caused the damage in the first place. I really wish that wasn't the case.

[mashman]

We'll just have to agree to differ on that one :shutup:

no we won't.. you're wrong and you know it :shifty:... Hang on, i'll just pop into my time machine and find out... yep, I was right, a roaring success too :laugh:

[Zedder]

Im quite surprised that some nutter somewhere,instead of taking it out on his workmates or classmates hasnt gone "postal" at Goldman Sachs or some other dastardly corporation.....maybe its just a matter of time?:blip:

I wish they would go postal on the nasties who work at Goldman Sachs, Lehman Bros etc and rid us of those who regularly play their paper money games, get huge bonuses and end up causing global financial mayhem when they stuff up.

[YellowDog]

no we won't.. you're wrong and you know it :shifty:... Hang on, i'll just pop into my time machine and find out... yep, I was right, a roaring success too :laugh:

That's quite funny. My late father-in-law was a committed Marxist too and he would argue to the end of the whiskey bottle that the only reason the USSR failed was due to the, forced upon them, arms race with the USA. He also boasted that the Russians were leagues ahead at building space crafts.

Marxism is great for those slightly more equal than the others OR party menbers.

However not good if you have any ambition or ability OR just want to be able to make choices.

My Texan Taxi driver was one of the dumbest arses I've ever met. My taxi driver in Moscow spoke 3 languages and had two master's degrees. He was still a taxi driver though :blink:

[puddytat]

... capitalism, imho, has slowed the whole process down and given us way more junk than a non capitalist attempt at techno evolution would have...

Kinda agree there mashy.....the main purpose today seems to be the endless redesigning of the wheel....take Microsoft for an example.Or half the shit tools out there now.We used to manage quite well with a standard & philips head screwdriver, but now you need to have 27 different kinds just in case.:facepalm:
Shit bearings in everything & fuck all things designed to last longer than the warranty period.
Progress? Not always. Cheaper?Is definiely not better.Not when you have to buy 8.6 vacuum cleaners over a life time. My Mum brought a new Electrolux back in '67.....its still going.
Funny how Capatalism (Consumerism)now relies on Communism ,& vice versa.

[Genie]

I go to bed every night and sleep.

[mashman]

That's quite funny. My late father-in-law was a committed Marxist too and he would argue to the end of the whiskey bottle that the only reason the USSR failed was due to the, forced upon them, arms race with the USA. He also boasted that the Russians were leagues ahead at building space crafts.

Marxism is great for those slightly more equal than the others OR party menbers.

However not good if you have any ambition or ability OR just want to be able to make choices.

My Texan Taxi driver was one of the dumbest arses I've ever met. My taxi driver in Moscow spoke 3 languages and had two master's degrees. He was still a taxi driver though :blink:

Damn I wish my mum where hear, she's the political historian... Marxism etc... did the man on the street need to have money in his pocket?

[mashman]

Kinda agree there mashy.....the main purpose today seems to be the endless redesigning of the wheel....take Microsoft for an example.Or half the shit tools out there now.We used to manage quite well with a standard & philips head screwdriver, but now you need to have 27 different kinds just in case.:facepalm:
Shit bearings in everything & fuck all things designed to last longer than the warranty period.
Progress? Not always. Cheaper?Is definiely not better.Not when you have to buy 8.6 vacuum cleaners over a life time. My Mum brought a new Electrolux back in '67.....its still going.
Funny how Capatalism (Consumerism)now relies on Communism ,& vice versa.

Heh, aye the warranty period. I often mused that there must be an eprom in there somewhere ticking that year down from the first plugin... you would think that things would be designed to be reusable, or easily recyclable... I understand that that's very simplistic and that it isn't that easy to do... but I doubt that that sort of design thinking has ever been considered as profitable and therefore dumped in the too hard basket.

[YellowDog]

Heh, aye the warranty period. I often mused that there must be an eprom in there somewhere ticking that year down from the first plugin... you would think that things would be designed to be reusable, or easily recyclable... I understand that that's very simplistic and that it isn't that easy to do... but I doubt that that sort of design thinking has ever been considered as profitable and therefore dumped in the too hard basket.

Most of us are with you on that sentiment. We buy cheap and badly pooly made products these days to support the 'throwaway society', so that pooly paid workers can stay in work and make more pooly made products to replace it once it's worn out. You can argue that such products hence cost a fraction of what it would otherwise be and therefore more consumers get to bemnef it from them.

I will be trying to teach my kids to value what they have, rather than automatically seek the new and improved replacements. Peer pressure and the media are not on my side.

[Brett]

Heh, aye the warranty period. I often mused that there must be an eprom in there somewhere ticking that year down from the first plugin... you would think that things would be designed to be reusable, or easily recyclable... I understand that that's very simplistic and that it isn't that easy to do... but I doubt that that sort of design thinking has ever been considered as profitable and therefore dumped in the too hard basket.

I absolutely agree with you here. It is something that has to change. We simply don't have the resources necessary to keep making things "new" especially if the resources from the "old" product are not being recycled.

Why is it that so many products (like appliances, cell phones, TV's etc) are still designed and treated as almost a type of consumable? I suppose manufacturers rely on peoples need/want to replace with new every so often, but if the business model changed and they focused also on providing an after sales service schedule, then there would still be ample business in it for them.

[avgas]

Yeah, Nah... I just need the current Zombies to realise that they aren't
But then they might actually get jobs :violin:

[Usarka]

Plenty of people with jobs that are mindless zombies.

[avgas]

Plenty of people with jobs that are mindless zombies.
Yeah I like to call them middle management. Sounds nicer.
http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs49/f/2009/165/5/e/5e1e44a67d4be2b9cf64a55bb0972c77.jpg

[YellowDog]

I absolutely agree with you here. It is something that has to change. We simply don't have the resources necessary to keep making things "new" especially if the resources from the "old" product are not being recycled.

Why is it that so many products (like appliances, cell phones, TV's etc) are still designed and treated as almost a type of consumable? I suppose manufacturers rely on peoples need/want to replace with new every so often, but if the business model changed and they focused also on providing an after sales service schedule, then there would still be ample business in it for them.

I spent a lot of time in Europe and the USA and I can tell you that NZ is like breath of fresh air in that people do make their items last longer. I was amazed that I could take items to old fashioned shops with sewing machines and get them repaired. NZ to me is like the UK in early the 1970s (apart from the flares). So what it is you are complaining about has yet to actually kick off fully here. The Chinese influence is certainly advancing that culture though.

Yes, washing machines, dish washers, fridges, cars; in fact almost everything is viewed as consumable with a limited life expectancy. It's called consumerism. It's how large corporates become wealthy and powerful. They control their market with their cartels and feed information to us to make us always strive for the latest and greatest. For my next bike I want a Multistrada :) I'm on my second Flat Screen TV in 4 years. I went from 46" to 55" with internet and all the bollox. This is wrong, but it is the future.

To foreigners, NZ is very right wing. Even the labour party is more right wing than European right wing parties. Consumerism on a large scale will be here very soon. All we can do is live better lives within the culture. Helen Clark in the UN is the H U G E political movement that will eventually influence/instigate change (personally I can’t stand her). But that will only happen when we are in far deeper sh!t than present. I'm not looking forward to that day and would prefer it if the G7 countries started to regulate themselves to start trying to protect our futures by implementing some sustainability type policies.

When NZ is completely planted up with Rapeseed because fuel is more valuable than food, you’ll know they’ve gone too far :facepalm:

[Big Dave]

It used to be called planned obsolescence.

Others called it the Holden HD.

[mashman]

Most of us are with you on that sentiment. We buy cheap and badly pooly made products these days to support the 'throwaway society', so that pooly paid workers can stay in work and make more pooly made products to replace it once it's worn out. You can argue that such products hence cost a fraction of what it would otherwise be and therefore more consumers get to bemnef it from them.

I will be trying to teach my kids to value what they have, rather than automatically seek the new and improved replacements. Peer pressure and the media are not on my side.

That's the thing though... I read about it from the companies themselves, we wanna do this and wanna do that, but we need more investment. Fackin money :angry:. Unfortunately again, the benefit (for producer and consumer) is in the $ figure not the longevity/quality etc... and things don't become cheaper until they're superceeded, and all to make room the the next version, it cracks me up laughin.

Ditto on the kids thing... I may have a harder time with the wife though :shifty:.



I absolutely agree with you here. It is something that has to change. We simply don't have the resources necessary to keep making things "new" especially if the resources from the "old" product are not being recycled.

Why is it that so many products (like appliances, cell phones, TV's etc) are still designed and treated as almost a type of consumable? I suppose manufacturers rely on peoples need/want to replace with new every so often, but if the business model changed and they focused also on providing an after sales service schedule, then there would still be ample business in it for them.

As mentioned above, there ain't enough $$$ to allow for that kind of R&D let alone the price tag that would be heaped on to the things... that's where I find it a crying shame... again the will is there, the money ain't. We all know we don't need the next best thing and would probably be happy with the $50 phone, shitty tablet (as long as it has angry birds on it, or in our case and angry bird on it :shifty:), 10 yr old washing machine, 10 yr old dishwasher etc... yet we'll buy the new ones for the warranty in an attempt to avoid a possible false economy. We all know these things, it's just too expensive, and like ya say, there would probably still be ample business.



But then they might actually get jobs

What jobs? :shifty: