Time Lords at the TT

[Motu]

So we don't go too far off topic on the why do we ride thread.

In that thread I mentioned how someone rode Hailwoods Honda six and thought it handled terrible - but hey,what if it was so advanced that it was beyond his abilities or comprehension at the time,and only Hailwood was privvy to what was happening? What would someone from that era think of modern bikes if he had never ridden one....and what would we think of a bike 20yrs from the future - could we handle it,would it be an evil handler?

I remember when I rode the first Pro Link Honda enduro bike - shit...no way man,I can't ride a bike like that,too tall,too soft,no,not for me.A year later I had one and was going X ten faster off road - chalk and cheese.

[merv]

Mike and Ago at the Isle of Man were a cut above and it took how long for Mike's lap record to be beaten? I understood the Honda six handled well, the problem he had was with the 500 four and it was the 500 he set the lap record on. It took eight years before Mick Grant broke Mike's record.

[Jackrat]

So we don't go too far off topic on the why do we ride thread.

In that thread I mentioned how someone rode Hailwoods Honda six and thought it handled terrible - but hey,what if it was so advanced that it was beyond his abilities or comprehension at the time,and only Hailwood was privvy to what was happening? What would someone from that era think of modern bikes if he had never ridden one....and what would we think of a bike 20yrs from the future - could we handle it,would it be an evil handler?

I remember when I rode the first Pro Link Honda enduro bike - shit...no way man,I can't ride a bike like that,too tall,too soft,no,not for me.A year later I had one and was going X ten faster off road - chalk and cheese.

Good point mate.
One of my favorite bikes from the early 70s was the T500 Suzuki.
The brakes were crap,the suspension was crap,and all the way through any sweeper type corner the swing arm would flex from side to side making the bike fish tail some thing evil,An then there was the Kawasaki triple 500,it wasn,t the speed of the thing that killed guys,it was the handling.
My first bonnie, didn,t really handle by todays standards but compeared to the jappers of the day it was silk.Also any 500/4 still handled better than any T500.I,m glad I rode them bikes,would I go back,Hell no.

[merv]

Back in about 1971 or 1972 I attended the Gracefield street races and I think the dude was Craig Martin from Aussie and he was riding a T500 and the way it wallowed around the bends over the railway line by the Waiwhetu stream was scary. Ginger Molloy was there too on his GP Kawasaki and it didn't wallow and flex like the T500 it just skipped sideways at the back wheel on bumps. The fastest man then was Geoff Perry on the TR750 and he looked like he was cruising compared to the others. The point is like the guys above had said, bikes have come a long way, but it didn't matter it was still fun to be riding the best there was or any bike for that matter. The early twin shock Jap bikes, besides having fairly flexi frames, had atrocious dampers. Anyone else ride a Honda CB360 around 1974. Man did they pogo stick and wallow.

[merv]

Now, as for Gracefield I haven't got digital copies of the 70's photos but here are the photos I took at the 1983 meeting. Look out for Kevin McGee, Brent Jones, Dave Hiscock, Rob Phillis, Stu Avant, Robert Holden, plus Leppard and Goodin and Gregory and Price on the sidecars.

[merv]

OK only lets me attach five at a time so here are the rest.

[LB]

Great photos Merv. I was the race secretary that day....it's brought back heaps of memories! Dave Hiscock is number H if my memory serves me correctly.

[LB]

Especially memories of the "after match function" at the Lower Hutt town hall. Best I don't go into that here......

[Motu]

Yeah,the early 70s were the best time for bikes I reckon - what you guys are saying is true...but it was all backwards - the older bikes handled great...the new (Jap) bikes handled like shit.A whole generation of riders grew up who didn't want to ride an unreliable dirty bad rep British bike,so only rode evil handling Jappers,never sampling the pleasures of a Commando or oil in frame Triumph.Comparing my wifes 71 Trident against my early sohc CB750 was no contest - the Honda was CRAP! ...nice motor though.

But what I'm asking is can we,especially those riders who have only sampled sports bikes made in the last 10years,reconise a quantum leap in handling,or do we say it handles like shit and walk away.Like,if we could ride Rossi's 2003 Honda,could we ride it? would it be so far out of our experiance that it was unriderable?

Hey Merv,you still there? One of those early riders came to see me yesterday,on this bike,he has had it for 29 years.An easy spot for you,but some may have never seen one of these.He still races the big triples,wearing the leathers with the big K on the back.

[merv]

Hey Merv,you still there? One of those early riders came to see me yesterday,on this bike,he has had it for 29 years.An easy spot for you,but some may have never seen one of these.He still races the big triples,wearing the leathers with the big K on the back.

Ah the joys of disc valve twins. I'm wasn't up with Kawasakis enough to tell if its a 250 or 350. Samurai or Avenger? They were the names weren't they. I never owned one but my memories of those is they were bloody temperamental and the motors didn't last - like 5,000 miles between rebores and new pistons and they made a god awful rattly sound - far worse than the Suzuki T250 and T350 which sounded sweeter but weren't quite as brutal with power.

Its amazing your friend still has it going in such good order.

Graeme Crosby cut his teeth on these and who was the other racer of the day? Wasn't it someone Bone that used to do well on these before the triples came along.

Then I remember Alan Collinson in white leathers blitzing the field on the H2 in the North Island and Owen Galbraith doing it in the South.

[Motu]

Yes,that's Eric Bone's 71 350 A7,dunno what name they put on them.I always wanted the 350 Big Horn...the 250 MX bike was a good slider - I used to do 3rd gear full lock figure 8s on one.My KT250 has the same motor.

[merv]

A friend of mine got a 350 Bighorn when I was at Uni with him in 75 and you'd always find him on the side of the road trying to file up another flywheel key because for some reason it kept stripping them and the flywheel would rotate on the crankshaft. I never got to trail ride with him on that because it was always out of action. Once he bought an XL250 Motorsport then we were away all over the country - no reliability issues with the Hondas worth speaking about. I rode a 73 XL175 on the trails then. Sold it to Chris Harris in 1990 and it was one of the bikes they had up for auction recently - don't know if he sold it though.

[LB]

Motu: I was going to say "is it Eric Bone"!! Honestly. He was at the very first race meeting I ever went to, he used to be around all the time. He kind of mentored Croz for a while there, when Croz started racing on the triples. I caught up with Eric again at Paeroa a couple of years ago when he was there on an H2. I couldn't believe it was him - had my photo taken with him I was so stoked. He's a real enthusiast. A neat guy. And he still wears those same leathers that he wore back in the 70's!

I well remember those triples. Ah, the smell of Castrol R. Can you still buy it these days? And rattly, yes, very much so. But go like stink (till you had to stop for gas - yet again)

Alan Collison was I think the only guy to race in all of the NZ Six Hours. (I may be wrong here but he did ride in heaps of them).

[LB]

Back to the photo - the 250 and 350 were called Samurai and Avenger - not sure which was which.

And Suzuki used to name all their bikes - the T500 was the Titan, they had a Rebel (T250?) and Apache (T350?) and I forget the rest (old age!)

[LB]

And who can remember Mike Gane from Tauranga, wheelstanding his CBX 1000 (the six) at Bay Park and Pukekohe? He was at one stage in the early 80's working at Norjo's in Chch, not sure where he is now. I used to have a blown-up photo of him wheelstanding - I think it's now got lost which is a shame.

[What?]

Yes,that's Eric Bone's 71 350 A7,dunno what name they put on them.
Avenger. I wanted one, once. But I was young...

[Motu]

Motu: I was going to say "is it Eric Bone"!!.

Yeah,how come he can fit into his old leathers when others of us can't fit into last years outfit! Kawasaki's are still number one in Eric's life - to go for a ride with him leaves you needing to buy the latest bike...must be slow if an old 70s 2 stroke can go around the outside of you on corners...an ability to consume mega Lion Red is a help too.Triples of all shapes and sizes in his shed,but the 350 A7 is kinda special - he just picked up another one too...how bought that,if a 350 Kawa twin needs to be tossed out after sitting for 17 years,who better to to take care of it.

[merv]

And Suzuki used to name all their bikes - the T500 was the Titan, they had a Rebel (T250?) and Apache (T350?) and I forget the rest (old age!)

No the T250 was the Hustler, the T350 was the Rebel - you got the Titan right and the Apache was the TS400 dirt bike. I was mainly into dirt bikes then so remember TS90 Honcho, TS125 Duster, TS185 Sierra and TS250 Savage - great names huh.

The smaller road bike was the T125 Stinger.

[merv]

And who can remember Mike Gane from Tauranga.

I was at the six hour the year they introduced the CBX (1978) and Mike Gane, Alan Collinson and a few others were riding them. You could see they had demon speed on the straights compared to the rest of the bikes but sadly for Honda they never went the distance and I think it was Gane's that blew dramatically in a cloud of smoke on the back straight.

Croz was on the Z1R and turned the quickest laps later in the day trying to make up for Tony Hatton dropping it, but then his engine blew too. That was the first year Croz rode with a partner and it spoiled his winning streak. I presume they changed the rules to make two riders compulsory. If I remember rightly this was then the beginning of the very successful Hiscock/Chivas winning streak.

[Rocketman]

Hi,

Reading this thread has brought a tear to my eye, especially the photo of the A3.

In 1970 I bought a brand-new Kawasaki A1 Samurai 250cc at a cost of $899! The A3 was then $999. My memories are of a well finished bike that could really move, had a narrow power band and virtually "ate" spark plugs. Unfortunately, it didn't have electronic ignition like the Mach III. It definitely didn't handle that well compared to bikes of today, or even Triumphs, BSA's of those days, but it was my first new bike and I loved it. Sometimes wish I had kept it but then I've thought that about a number of bikes I've owned over the years. I'm sure many riders would agree.

Bikes today are definitely more reliable and less labour intensive but I enjoyed motorcycling as much then as I do now - for most, the years don't change the magic...

Cheers.

[LB]

Merv: they did change the rules after a few years making it obligatory for there to be two riders. I think they also had a rule that one of them had to do a minimum time (2 hours??)

Rocketman: you're right, the years don't change the magic indeed.

[What?]

Merv: they did change the rules after a few years making it obligatory for there to be two riders. I think they also had a rule that one of them had to do a minimum time (2 hours??)

Rocketman: you're right, the years don't change the magic indeed.
Them was the days! The 6 hr had min / max riding times, and yes, the 2-man team was made compulsory. I attended every 6 hour from '78 to the last one in '88, bar '82 (bugger). The Hiscocks, Robert Holden, Bob Toomey, the list could go on for a bit, all great riders. The memories are all still clear(ish). A great shame the 6 hour died. It was like Mecca.

[Kickaha]

Them was the days! The 6 hr had min / max riding times, and yes, the 2-man team was made compulsory. I attended every 6 hour from '78 to the last one in '88, bar '82 (bugger). The Hiscocks, Robert Holden, Bob Toomey, the list could go on for a bit, all great riders. The memories are all still clear(ish). A great shame the 6 hour died. It was like Mecca.

I only went to the last two,but remember Aaron Slight in the two hour proddy race on a RZ250 (I think) at the time the 87 event was the biggest motorcycle event I had ever been to,sadly the following year it was more like a club race with very few people attending as the WSBK was soon to be held their.

[LB]

My first six hour was I think in 1977 - it was the year that there was that big pile-up at the start (they didn't do Le Mans starts the first couple of years) and the Norton went up in flames. A very sad sight. I went to every one after that till they finished. Magic races.

[merv]

So who remembers the winners?

Went something like this that I remember starting in 1974:

1974 Ginger Molloy - solo
1975 Graeme Crosby - solo
1976 Graeme Crosby - solo
1977 Graeme Crosby - solo
1978 Dave Hiscock, Neil Chivas first double pair
then didn't they win every year until
1983 Bill Biber, Phil Payne
1984 Alan DeLatour, Dave Martin

then we had kids and my memory goes a bit fuzzy.

1983 race was a cracker because all the fancied runners dropped by the wayside and Bill brought the bike home - that was the year of the VF750F that had more grunt than any of its competitors but it was early days with watercooled bikes and they all seemed to clap out after they pitted. After that teams started squirting radiators with CO2 fire extinguishers. Alan DeLatour was the pace setter streaking off to an early lead only to have the bike refuse to run properly after that first stop. Probably blew a gasket like Mr Melon's bike.

Here's a couple of pics - DeLatours bike number 5 some time soon after the first pitstop and then Bill Biber crossing the finish line on number 6 while the Aussies (who can rememebr their names) were about to push their dead bike number 3 over the line to log a finish.

We were talking on the other thread about racing, sponsorship etc. In the 80s guys like Bill Biber and Phil Payne could race with Honda City sponsorship and we all remember the support of Wellington Motorcylces was immense. Sales funded that kind of stuff. Not any more.

[merv]

... and here's Bill Biber, same leathers 2 months later at Lyall Bay still with Honda City written on the bike.

[merv]

... and you could race anything. My memory is fading but was this Warwick Jamieson (sidecar racer normally) or someone else?

[LB]

Ah Merv....more great memories!

Bill Biber has a t-shirt with all the winners on it. I did write them down somewhere but I've lost it. I'll get the names from him again. Last winners were Tony Rees and Dave Hicks.

Not sure who's on the scooter, but from memory we ran scooter races at Lyall Bay and also at the Shell Two Wheelers at Manfeild.

Dave Hiscock and Neil Chivas did win a number of them, but I think there's someone else in the equation there too.

Wgtn Motorcycles had some really neat innovative ideas for this race - like packing the tanks in dry ice so they could get more petrol in them, and instead of refilling, they put replaced the empty tank for a full (cold) one! They changed the rules the following year so that you had to refill.

[SPman]

Took an A7SS (the street scrambler with twin high level pipes on one side)for a test ride in 72 - went bloody well, but ended up with a new S2 triple - not quite as quick but sounded and handled better! In fact , I reckoned it handled better than me mates RD350's. Plugs that lasted 4-500 miles and and engine rebuild every 4000 miles.........aaah, those were the days!:rolleyes:
When it comes to post classic racing, seeing Eric out there, IS a time warp

[Kickaha]

I seem to remember Bill Biber racing a BMW K100 at some meetings as well.

And wasn't it the bikes whose petrol tanks were packed in ice that couldn't use the gas up fast enough to stop the tanks expanding as they warmed up? it the.

They also ran scooter races at Ruapuna at early Bears meetings.


1983 Bill Biber/Phil Payne, was this the year the bike missed post race scrutineering as someone had to be dropped off at the airport and some people reckoned it was so they had time to replace the "illegal" parts with the stock ones before the bikes were pulled down? I'm sure there's more than one story like that about different winners and bikes.

[merv]

1983 Bill Biber/Phil Payne, was this the year the bike missed post race scrutineering as someone had to be dropped off at the airport and some people reckoned it was so they had time to replace the "illegal" parts with the stock ones before the bikes were pulled down? I'm sure there's more than one story like that about different winners and bikes.

I doubt it somehow because they weren't the fancied runners that day but their bike survived while the other Hondas fell by the wayside. I'd say there was luck involved and maybe they weren't so hard on their motor.

[merv]

Hey just to keep you interested who's this on the H2 at last year's Wanganui races?

[LB]

It's Tony McQueen from Wgtn - he's always been into Kawasakis - a real nice bloke. He very occasionally has the 750 at Manfeild.

[What?]

...some people reckoned it was so they had time to replace the "illegal" parts with the stock ones before the bikes were pulled down? I'm sure there's more than one story like that about different winners and bikes.
I reckon there were such stories every year, probably dreamt up by those who felt personally slighted that their favourite team didn't win.
A lot of the issue with pre-race fave's in the 6 hour was that it was an endurance race; being fast was not enough to win. Consider Aaron Slight and the oil leaking FZR1000. Or Robert Holden taking the award for being the only man ever to run out of gas twice in the same race! And the Aussie race was won by a BMW R90 one year... hardly a fancied bike. :no:

[RavenR44]

No the T250 was the Hustler, the T350 was the Rebel - you got the Titan right and the Apache was the TS400 dirt bike. I was mainly into dirt bikes then so remember TS90 Honcho, TS125 Duster, TS185 Sierra and TS250 Savage - great names huh.

The smaller road bike was the T125 Stinger.

Ah, memories. My first mo'sickle was a Zook Rebel. Although '350' was stretching it a bit since displacement was 315cc. :D

Had a mate with a Hustler and the performance of the two bikes was almost identical. Except the '250' was marginally quicker than the '350'. So you paid more for the Rebel for the priviledge of going slower. Never could work out Suzuki's marketing.

Still, the tank on the Rebel was better looking than the one on the Hustler. :D

Reminiscing can be such sweet sorrow. *Sigh*

[vifferman]

Or is it Robin? :confused:

No - it's that new kid: Raven.
Actually, thanks for that, Sir! Dunno if I'd read that thread before, but it brought back some memories for me too - I started riding in '73 or thereabouts, and rode some of the bike models mentioned, plus some other weirdies.

[RavenR44]

Or is it Robin? :confused:

No - it's that new kid: Raven.
Actually, thanks for that, Sir! Dunno if I'd read that thread before, but it brought back some memories for me too - I started riding in '73 or thereabouts, and rode some of the bike models mentioned, plus some other weirdies.

Cripes. I had no idea it was especially ancient. In fact, I was idly experimenting with the search facility when I stumbled upon this thread and naturally I came over all misty-eyed and nostalgic. :weep:

But yea verily vifferman, I had a few miles upon many of those rice-burning beasties in my youth as well. Those were the days... [mandatory old fart comment to be inserted into any and all threads featuring machines from the time when sex was 90% of a young man's fancy with the rest dedicated to 'bikes' of the non-organic variety] :2thumbsup

BTW, I believe you were referring to Fatman and the Boy Blunder.

:D

[SPman]

Guess it pays to look at the date....was reading away and thought "hello, Linda Blair's back on............" oops!

[Dadpole]

You can tell the age of the thread by the tone of the posts. No abuse, slagging off and general 'toy > cot' TM.
It is a good read though - especially as I am of that generation and started on a T350.

[Motu]

Yeah but it still went off topic.I was trying to explore the idea that when we come across something different,and far beyond our experience,we tend to take a negative view.A few years down the track and the radical becomes everyday....we now think it's normal and the only way to do it.

Looking back at this thread where I was thinking that Hailwoods Honda was a very good handling bike...that no one else could ride.Now we have a Ducati that only Casey Stoner can ride,all the other world class riders think it's shit.

History never repeats.....

[Bender]

Motu: I was going to say "is it Eric Bone"!! Honestly. He was at the very first race meeting I ever went to, he used to be around all the time. He kind of mentored Croz for a while there, when Croz started racing on the triples. I caught up with Eric again at Paeroa a couple of years ago when he was there on an H2. I couldn't believe it was him - had my photo taken with him I was so stoked. He's a real enthusiast. A neat guy. And he still wears those same leathers that he wore back in the 70's!

I well remember those triples. Ah, the smell of Castrol R. Can you still buy it these days? And rattly, yes, very much so. But go like stink (till you had to stop for gas - yet again)

Alan Collison was I think the only guy to race in all of the NZ Six Hours. (I may be wrong here but he did ride in heaps of them).

This thread has come up after someone linked to it. I've been going through some of my old photos and scanning the prints - these are from the black and white days.

Eric Bone indeed, here at Baypark Raceway with Chris Woodmass. I worked with Eric and Graeme Crosby at Laurie Summers in (guessing a bit here) 1974. Was not popular when I bought a T350 Suzi, rounded tank model, from their Onehunga branch. Shoulda been a Kwaka apparently, but the things scared the bejasis out of me from the time I rode the first "ridged tank" Mach III.

[merv]

You are quite right Motu, what we are used to is what we are comfortable with, but that may feel bad to someone else. There is always accusation in racing "they built the bike for ...... and it doesn't suit me hence my poor results" and anything radical, style or technology, is just so wrong. Years later they do look normal. I find that with car design - yuck when they come out, then they grow on you. The VFR1200 is probably a bike like that.

In the old days that jump from front engine to mid engined race cars was like that - look how long they held on at Indy with the old Offenhausers.

Then there is tyres, we all remember the Simon Crafar story.

You mentioned the first pro-link Hondas too, yeah tall, soft weird. I remember the same thing when I had my twin shock XL175 in the late 70's a mate got a PE175 with the laid forward twin shocks - latest thing - man it felt awful, I tried to turn it when stuck in a tight spot on a trail and tried to lift it around and the back wheel just dropped down and stayed planted on the ground because of the "long" travel suspension. Now they are all like this, long travel that is, not twin shock - try lifting them around in the garage, but man are they good over rough ground.

Bender that is a great pic.

[MSTRS]

Then there is tyres, we all remember the Simon Crafar story.


CRAFT has set in...please enlighten.
My first proper bike was a TS125 in 1973. Went to a T500. Then a CB500/4. In those days I just 'did' - never thought about this new-fangled handling lark...
Wasn't until I rode a GSX400 in more recent years that I felt frame/swingarm flex. Prolly would have given the GSXR back after just sitting on it, back then.

[merv]

CRAFT has set in...please enlighten.


Remember he beat Doohan in Pomgolia on the Yamaha, then they changed tyre brands and the boy never got close to winning a race again. Was it the tyres, who knows? Whatever, it is what Motu was talking about what suited one person doesn't work for another.

[Blackbird]

Just out of interest Merv, it WAS the 500 Honda that was evil handling. I saw Hailwood on it a number of times and am of the opinion that it would have killed a lesser man. At that stage of development, Honda couldn't design a frame to take the power. Ken Sprayson, the Reynolds frame design god offered to make a frame for it and Honda declined as it would have involved loss of face.

However, I'm pretty sure that subsequently, John Cooper rode a semi-works Honda 500 in non-GP events and it had a Reynolds frame. Guess there was less face loss in short circuit racing.

[merv]

Just out of interest Merv, it WAS the 500 Honda that was evil handling.

True and that's what I said on the first page, it wasn't the six that was so bad. Wasn't the 500 the one he (Hailwood) was said to have tossed the back shocks into a lake right in front of the very nice gentleman from Japan?

[Ixion]

Yeah but it still went off topic.I was trying to explore the idea that when we come across something different,and far beyond our experience,we tend to take a negative view.A few years down the track and the radical becomes everyday....we now think it's normal and the only way to do it.

Looking back at this thread where I was thinking that Hailwoods Honda was a very good handling bike...that no one else could ride.Now we have a Ducati that only Casey Stoner can ride,all the other world class riders think it's shit.

History never repeats.....

Pretty near every bike I ride, the first time I hate it. Horrible, can't abide this bike. Then I get used to it, and end up liking it.

Is why I think test rides on bikes a waste of time, unless you are very familiar with the exact model of machine.

I suspect that many riders do themselves a diservice by limiting the range of machinery they find acceptable, simply because they are not prepared to hang in through the acclimatisation period.

In many ways I prefer to buy a bike that I hate on the first ride. because I know that it is going to push me to broaden my riding base, rather than just being a repeat of what i am already familiar with.

[merv]

Interesting Ixion and as I have said on this forum before I don't bother test riding bikes I just figure out what I want and go buy them and other than my Suzuki DR250R of 1998 I have always been happy with what I bought. You do need a while to "fit" the bike. If anyone doesn't know what I mean, go on a ride with a mate - swap bikes and feel how crap their bike is to you feeling rather weird, then change back and gawd now your own bike feels crap and weird. They just don't feel right straight away.

[Blackbird]

Interesting Ixion and as I have said on this forum before I don't bother test riding bikes I just figure out what I want and go buy them and other than my Suzuki DR250R of 1998 I have always been happy with what I bought. You do need a while to "fit" the bike. If anyone doesn't know what I mean, go on a ride with a mate - swap bikes and feel how crap their bike is to you feeling rather weird, then change back and gawd now your own bike feels crap and weird. They just don't feel right straight away.

Absolutely! The one exception to the rule was the Street Triple. Guess that the "figuring out what I want stage" was done fairly thoroughly for starters and this translated to something which was close to ergonomically perfect. I think I'd find the Blackbird alien if I rode it now though.

[Motu]

The R65 is very much a bike I didn't think I could live with,but now I'm really happy with it....but.I change wheels between my streettracker tyres for gravel and my road tyres for more open road use every few weeks depending on where I'm riding.When I have the road tyres on I don't like it again - it's nervous tipping in,and I always run wide.I am very confident on the bike with my ''old'' '60's style tyres....and nervous with modern tyres.Must be just me....but I'm the important one when it comes to setting my bike up to suit my riding style.