Occupy Dunedin?

[tigertim20]

Seen this in dunedin today when driving through the octago. Bunch of pot smoking jobless hippies taking advantage of free rent, with strength in numbers as a strategy to avoid being told to fuck off, while whining about 'greedy corporate cunts' who are greedy because they earn lots of money that they work long hard hours for.

at least thats what I assume its about? Anyone want to enlighten me?
I was hoping it was a celebration for the opening of hippe season. If so, Ill need to sight the .22 in . . .

[mashman]

and those who work long hard hours doing multiple jobs and don't get paid millions of $$$, let alone the minimum wage? Jobless hippies? Perhaps you should have stopped by and found out for yourself, or were you too scared they'd try to convert you :rofl: bock bock

[DrunkenMistake]

Seen this in dunedin today when driving through the octago. Bunch of pot smoking jobless hippies taking advantage of free rent, with strength in numbers as a strategy to avoid being told to fuck off, while whining about 'greedy corporate cunts' who are greedy because they earn lots of money that they work long hard hours for.

at least thats what I assume its about? Anyone want to enlighten me?
I was hoping it was a celebration for the opening of hippe season. If so, Ill need to sight the .22 in . . .

Something in connection with the wall street protests how people were bashing corporate giants, meanwhile they were using corporate products..

Well this is my understanding

[tigertim20]

and those who work long hard hours doing multiple jobs and don't get paid millions of $$$, let alone the minimum wage? Jobless hippies? Perhaps you should have stopped by and found out for yourself, or were you too scared they'd try to convert you :rofl: bock bock
I dont give a fuck either way to be honest, just wondered what it was about. franly, there were banners all over the place, all about something different, which made it look disorganized and confusing, I figured, why would I support a bunch of cunts so drug fucked, they cant decide what they want to actually protest?

Something in connection with the wall street protests how people were bashing corporate giants, meanwhile they were using corporate products..

Well this is my understanding

well thats it to aint it?
I looked, I saw them all in tents, mostly qaulity tents made by massive well known companies. they had used paint, made by massive companies to paint their banners. the wore labelled clothing produced by massive companies. they had a small PA system, built with components made by masive companies. . .

[DrunkenMistake]

well thats it to aint it?
I looked, I saw them all in tents, mostly qaulity tents made by massive well known companies. they had used paint, made by massive companies to paint their banners. the wore labelled clothing produced by massive companies. they had a small PA system, built with components made by masive companies. . .

Yip.
Its oxymoron.

[FJRider]

I was hoping it was a celebration for the opening of hippe season. If so, Ill need to sight the .22 in . . .

I'm not sure when the season starts ... but the daily bag limit is two ...

As they can be found in (large) groups ... is is possible to get your bag limit in one shot. (lead shot may be used)

[DrunkenMistake]

I'm not sure when the season starts ... but the daily bag limit is two ...

As they can be found in (large) groups ... is is possible to get your bag limit in one shot. (lead shot may be used)

Cant see a .22 stopping them either..
Ever shot a hippy? takes at least a .308 I have 3 here, you can come borrow one, will need to supply your own ammo though. :shifty:

[FJRider]

Cant see a .22 stopping them either..
Ever shot a hippy? takes at least a .308 I have 3 here, you can come borrow one, will need to supply your own ammo though. :shifty:

I just use the .22 to wing them ... takes all the fun out of it ... if you get your bag too soon ...

[DrunkenMistake]

I just use the .22 to wing them ... takes all the fun out of it ... if you get your bag too soon ...
Ohh your one of those who like to get em good in the thigh then give them a 2 hour lead, then stalk them and finish them off?

Fucking hippies.:soon::soon:

[mashman]

I dont give a fuck either way to be honest, just wondered what it was about. franly, there were banners all over the place, all about something different, which made it look disorganized and confusing, I figured, why would I support a bunch of cunts so drug fucked, they cant decide what they want to actually protest?

All about something different... surely not, almost as if there's more than 1 thing wrong with society :bleh:. It's not meant to be organised and they have decided what they want to protest against, because they have banners covering a multitude of issues. Bummer that that seems confusing to ya... it makes perfect sense to me :yes:.

[flyingcrocodile46]

All about something different... surely not, almost as if there's more than 1 thing wrong with society :bleh:. It's not meant to be organised and they have decided what they want to protest against, because they have banners covering a multitude of issues. Bummer that that seems confusing to ya... it makes perfect sense to me :yes:.

I'm telling ya! them's oranges under the onion skins, I can tell by the label:yes:

[Coolz]

The protest started in America and is not aimed at manufactures or any one else who made their fortune through hard work, but at corporate bankers who manipulated the money market and caused the global finace collapse.They did this to blackmail the U.S government into handing over billions of taxpayer dollars. The bankers then paid themselves millons of dollars in bonuses. Meanwhile many hardworking Americans lost their jobs and were thrown out of their homes because they could not meet their mortgage payments. The ripples were felt in N.Z. the firm I worked for went from a million a month turnover to eighty thousand and several employees lost their jobs....And no, Im not a hippie or a protester....Im not an ignorant redneck either!

[willytheekid]

Dunno.....it COULD get interesting :shifty:...........:innocent:


http://hittingmetalwithahammer.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/24766_10150193701780002_649290001_12076375_6035917 _n.jpg

[marty]

winz should go through and record all dole bludgers who are there, and remove their dole payment for the time they are not looking for a job

[Oakie]

The protest started in America and is not aimed at manufactures or any one else who made their fortune through hard work, but at corporate bankers who manipulated the money market and caused the global finace collapse.They did this to blackmail the U.S government into handing over billions of taxpayer dollars. The bankers then paid themselves millons of dollars in bonuses. Meanwhile many hardworking Americans lost their jobs and were thrown out of their homes because they could not meet their mortgage payments. The ripples were felt in N.Z. the firm I worked for went from a million a month turnover to eighty thousand and several employees lost their jobs....And no, Im not a hippie or a protester....Im not an ignorant redneck either!

Yeah and that can be respected but if you look at the what many of the people who call themselves 'the 99%' are complaining about it covers a whole range of stuff, much not even related to corporate bankers. Those hangers on who are just getting in because it's cool to protest about something have diluted the original intent of the protest ... not saying that I agree with that either though as I don't have the unbiased info to let me decide on that.

[cs363]

The whole Occupy NZ thing lost any credibility for me when I saw that fuckwit Minto was involved.

[Fatt Max]

They are occupying Aeotea Square in Auckland as well. Tight cunts wouldnt even give me a lentil burger.

One of the guys I work with watched two of em walk into Starbucks and have a latte.....!!.....thats shoving it up them there corporates, eh

Burger King have been out with the vouchers as well, dont think anyone refused.

I suppose thay are tyying to get a message across, whatever they think that is...

[JimO]

nice and wet in a tent tonight

[DrunkenMistake]

nice and wet in a tent tonight

would turn into a inflatable raft lmao

[Big Dave]

I suppose thay are tyying to get a message across, whatever they think that is...


<img src="http://traditionalchristianity.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/its-not-fair.jpg">

[mashman]

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumblarge_516/1277489636Kd0CSQ.jpg

[tigertim20]

Cant see a .22 stopping them either..
Ever shot a hippy? takes at least a .308 I have 3 here, you can come borrow one, will need to supply your own ammo though. :shifty:

wheres the fun in killing them with one shot?
>22 rounds arent expensive.
I like to make the cunts dance a bit, get my money's worth like

[jazfender]

Seen this in dunedin today when driving through the octago. Bunch of pot smoking jobless hippies taking advantage of free rent, with strength in numbers as a strategy to avoid being told to fuck off, while whining about 'greedy corporate cunts' who are greedy because they earn lots of money that they work long hard hours for.

at least thats what I assume its about? Anyone want to enlighten me?
I was hoping it was a celebration for the opening of hippe season. If so, Ill need to sight the .22 in . . .

It's not about people who legitimately work for their money.

248932

[Swoop]

After the success of the "Occupy Wall Street" movement, a similar protest is taking place in Germany.

They're going for the tried and trusted "Occupy Poland" approach.

[Fatt Max]

After the success of the "Occupy Wall Street" movement, a similar protest is taking place in Germany.

They're going for the tried and trusted "Occupy Poland" approach.

Yes, and I hear the Italian protesters have already surrendered

[FJRider]

Yes, and I hear the Italian protesters have already surrendered

And the Smithsonian is readying the Enola Gay for one last run ...

[hayd3n]

i never noticed i must of been @ work

[oldrider]

The protest started in America and is not aimed at manufactures or any one else who made their fortune through hard work, but at corporate bankers who manipulated the money market and caused the global finace collapse.They did this to blackmail the U.S government into handing over billions of taxpayer dollars. The bankers then paid themselves millons of dollars in bonuses. Meanwhile many hardworking Americans lost their jobs and were thrown out of their homes because they could not meet their mortgage payments. The ripples were felt in N.Z. the firm I worked for went from a million a month turnover to eighty thousand and several employees lost their jobs....And no, Im not a hippie or a protester....Im not an ignorant redneck either!

Seems fair enough but then they legitimise it in NZ by having people like Minto involved .... yeah right! :weird:

[Swoop]

Yes, and I hear the Italian protesters have already surrendered
Halfway through they changed sides and joined the police!

True to form, as usual.

[avgas]

well thats it to aint it?
I looked, I saw them all in tents, mostly qaulity tents made by massive well known companies. they had used paint, made by massive companies to paint their banners. the wore labelled clothing produced by massive companies. they had a small PA system, built with components made by masive companies. . .
Careful. They could be checking this thread with their iphones.

[HenryDorsetCase]

has anyone suggested in response to the question "Occupy Dunedin" the answer "Well, someone should"

[Big Dave]

The protest started in America ...snip.....

I agree with you - but as Bowie says 'This is not America'.

[oneofsix]

has anyone suggested in response to the question "Occupy Dunedin" the answer "Well, someone should"

The Scots did hence why we ended up with the city. :innocent:

[tigertim20]

Careful. They could be checking this thread with their iphones.

haha. and they advertised it on their Facebook accounts, while sitting at their HP computer:facepalm:

[jazfender]

This is primarily about financial institutions, not consumer companies, except those trying to use their corporate muscle to influence politics.

You are missing the point if you think someone in an adidas tracksuit is being hypocritical by protesting the financial sector grip on the economy and the subsequent recession.

With regards to the pay/power disparity, wearing commonfolk brands while protesting this is again not hypocritical. Maybe if they were wearing Givenchy while doing it, sure.

Keep in mind that when you are buying a product like an HP computer or a branded pair of shoes - you are not expecting that brand to use their power to corrupt your political and financial systems.

If you lot actually thought for more than two seconds about this instead of writing it off as a bunch of complaining hippies, you might see that this is something that is in most of your interests.

[jim.cox]

This is why people are protesting on Wall Street...

[tigertim20]

Keep in mind that when you are buying a product like an HP computer or a branded pair of shoes - you are not expecting that brand to use their power to corrupt your political and financial systems.

.
really? - funny cos I think that someone who buys things from a large company and thinks that that company won't go and do whatever they can politically, legally, immorally or otherwise to benefit themselves is an ignorant naieve moron.
Thats the reality of big business - they are political.

This is why people are protesting on Wall Street...

yeah but he's black?:corn:

[avgas]

This is primarily about financial institutions, not consumer companies, except those trying to use their corporate muscle to influence politics.
Tomato - Tomaeto
$ vs expense
Everyone flexes a political muscle somehow. Companies like Greenpeace etc thrive on the fact that people get all emotional.
These protesters are exactly the same. If you don't think so then why are they in Wall St instead of central park????

Fact of the matter while there argument is a good one. Its not a clear one. And they mask it even more by using product from companies they are supposedly protesting against.

Protest Fail.

[avgas]

really? - funny cos I think that someone who buys things from a large company and thinks that that company won't go and do whatever they can politically, legally, immorally or otherwise to benefit themselves is an ignorant naieve moron.
Actually he and you are both right.
Consumers are naive morons.

Apple is now one of the biggest mega co's in the world now. Why? Because they return no profits to anything but their bottom line. Yet they put a perception out there that they are saving the planet. Don't believe me - google it. esp the donations made Gates vs Jobs.
How many itunes recording studios you seen?
Apple is a fantastic greedy company. I completely love them from a business point of view. Its like growing money. As so long as they keep spinning the same presentations, people will keep thinking they are saving the planet. Its brilliant.

Same could be said about Rakon. According to the NZX people. Rakon is a god send to NZ economics. Never mind what products they make. Nor the fact they fluctuate more often than my bowel.

Don't forget all the adverts for the crashed finance co's. "We are the safest bet"

Perception is a mother fucker, and consumers are idiots. Marketing is the tool. Even the protesters are using it against consumers right now. Which is why they have support.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Some of the stories I've read are tragic, and the "We are the 99%" slogan is quite touching.

Here's a particularly tragic one:

[JimO]

like we need another a moisture farm around here

[misterO]

Uncle Owen was a good man, he deserved better than that. In all fairness, hats off to these brave young lads who have abandoned the comforts of the couch and a private toilet to protest: whatever. Hackey sack, drum circles and patchouli oil really can make the Earth a better place. And, if these champions of integrity are lucky enough- they might even meet some girls and get on TV! Who cares if this began as a sincere and overdue American backlash against U.S. corporate greed- Down with Capitalism and stuff! Fight the Power! Non-Conformists-Against-Independent-Thought: YEAH! Oh, and by the way- when you're all worn out from sticking it to The Man: Starbucks is only two blocks away and they have a delicious double de-caff soy latte mochachino and clean toilets. May The Force be with you.

[jazfender]

really? - funny cos I think that someone who buys things from a large company and thinks that that company won't go and do whatever they can politically, legally, immorally or otherwise to benefit themselves is an ignorant naieve moron.

Only one e in naive bro.


Thats the reality of big business - they are political.

Yeah that's part of what they're protesting about. Get it yet?

[Winston001]

This is why people are protesting on Wall Street...

Yeah. No.

The clips you posted of the court sentences aren't quite accurate. The finance guy was not guilty of perpetrating the fraud, but of aiding and abetting his superior, Lee B. Farkas, who was sentenced to 30 years in prison without parole.

The homeless man Roy Brown had 7 prior convictions and this particular offence was armed robbery. The sentence of 15 years which I also think was hugely excessive neverthless illustrates how the Three Strikes Law works. A law which people want here in NZ.

Anyway the correct comparison is 30 years and 15 years.

[jazfender]

Tomato - Tomaeto
$ vs expense
Everyone flexes a political muscle somehow. Companies like Greenpeace etc thrive on the fact that people get all emotional.
These protesters are exactly the same. If you don't think so then why are they in Wall St instead of central park????

Fact of the matter while there argument is a good one. Its not a clear one. And they mask it even more by using product from companies they are supposedly protesting against.

Protest Fail.

One of the issues is that a small number ie 1% of the corporations/rich are influencing politics disproportionately. It wouldn't be a problem if everyone had equal influence on the policies.

What is not clear about this?

[Berries]

Been away for the week but wandered through the Octagon this afternoon. Nice weather for camping.......... For those who don't know Dunedin when the cruise ships come in they close off the middle of the Octagon for all the buses to drop off the rich tourists to spend money on tat. Would have been interesting to hear their comments when they climbed off the bus in to the middle of tent city.

"But Elmer, I thought Bombay was on Tuesday?"

Let me know when the cops move in, I'd like to watch that.

[JimO]

One of the issues is that a small number ie 1% of the corporations/rich are influencing politics disproportionately. It wouldn't be a problem if everyone had equal influence on the policies.

What is not clear about this?

we have a election coming up, how many of these protesters will actually be bothered voting

[scumdog]

This is why people are protesting on Wall Street...

Sigh...

Mr Brown did it all wrong.

Instead of terrorising a bank-teller by robbing her of $100 he should have used his brain and become a 'corporate robber' and got millions - and less jail time!

Mt Brown is obviously some sort of loser...a brainless one at that.

[HenryDorsetCase]

One of the issues is that a small number ie 1% of the corporations/rich are influencing politics disproportionately. It wouldn't be a problem if everyone had equal influence on the policies.

What is not clear about this?


the hilarity for me is that for any student of history (of which once I was) the whole 1% /99% thing is the way it ALWAYS has been. Anybody watching that tv show THE BORGIAS? they're the 1%. Kings and queens and courts and all that malarkey: thy're the 1%.

its nothing new. And what is a corporation but a fuedal fiefdom, in a 17thcentury suit of clothes?

[oldrider]

the hilarity for me is that for any student of history (of which once I was) the whole 1% /99% thing is the way it ALWAYS has been. Anybody watching that tv show THE BORGIAS? they're the 1%. Kings and queens and courts and all that malarkey: thy're the 1%.

its nothing new. And what is a corporation but a fuedal fiefdom, in a 17thcentury suit of clothes?

Got it in one!

The poor me's and the envy brigade within the 99% are simply gasping for air! :mellow:

The argument about the behaviour of the banking system and the actors within does have merit though but what actually is their true beef? :confused:

[Winston001]

the hilarity for me is that for any student of history (of which once I was) the whole 1% /99% thing is the way it ALWAYS has been. Anybody watching that tv show THE BORGIAS? they're the 1%. Kings and queens and courts and all that malarkey: thy're the 1%.

its nothing new. And what is a corporation but a fuedal fiefdom, in a 17thcentury suit of clothes?

Bingo. Correct.

Still, I have sympathy for the Wall Street protesters and their ilk.

[tigertim20]

One of the issues is that a small number ie 1% of the corporations/rich are influencing politics disproportionately. It wouldn't be a problem if everyone had equal influence on the policies.

What is not clear about this?

HDC got it right, it has always been like that.
These guys are pretty much arguing for a utilitarian society. and its a waste of time.
If YOU were a head honcho of a billion dollar corporation earning millions through making smart, informed business and political decisions that continued to increase both your personal wealth, as well as the value of your company/corporation, would you just sit back and let some hippy arseholes demand you stop, reduce your wealth and walk away? fuck no you wouldnt.

If these guys put as much effort into making positive choices and working hard in their own lives towards their own golas, as they do bitching that the current discourse is unfair, they'd be well on their way to being wealthy head honchos themselves - which is EXACTLY what they need to do if they want to change our current reality. theyre bums, they HAVE no power!

[imdying]

I love this protest, it's just the progress they need.

You can't go from civilised society to the slaughter of innocents on a massive scale without all the little baby steps in between.

[Kickaha]

I love this protest, it's just the progress they need.

You can't go from civilised society to the slaughter of innocents on a massive scale without all the little baby steps in between.

So have you been down to Hagley Park to visit the "Occupy Christchurch" lot?

[FJRider]

If these guys put as much effort into making positive choices and working hard in their own lives towards their own golas, as they do bitching that the current discourse is unfair, they'd be well on their way to being wealthy head honchos themselves - which is EXACTLY what they need to do if they want to change our current reality. theyre bums, they HAVE no power!

The ONLY real effort these guys need to make ... to make a difference ... IS TO VOTE IN THE ELECTIONS ... :drinkup:

There is a radical difference in numbers ... that are ELIGIBLE to vote ... and those that DO on the day ...
:shit:

I think this is actually counted on by the politition's in power ... :facepalm:

Bum's of the country ... UNITE .... :woohoo:

[mashman]

HDC got it right, it has always been like that.



the hilarity for me is that for any student of history (of which once I was) the whole 1% /99% thing is the way it ALWAYS has been. Anybody watching that tv show THE BORGIAS? they're the 1%. Kings and queens and courts and all that malarkey: thy're the 1%.

its nothing new. And what is a corporation but a fuedal fiefdom, in a 17thcentury suit of clothes?

I think the highlighted is the point.



These guys are pretty much arguing for a utilitarian society. and its a waste of time.

Has it ever been tried to prove that it's a waste of time?



If YOU were a head honcho of a billion dollar corporation earning millions through making smart, informed business and political decisions that continued to increase both your personal wealth, as well as the value of your company/corporation, would you just sit back and let some hippy arseholes demand you stop, reduce your wealth and walk away? fuck no you wouldnt.

Fuck yeah, I would! Although I wouldn't walk away, I'd try something different. I laugh my ass off when I read that people put business and the pursuit of money before the well being of human beings, citing that it's their own fault for not doing what it takes to get more, then they cry fowl when someone is murdered by someone in the pursuit of getting more, and laud the corporations that let billions starve and die (murder using OSH standards) when they have the power to change that. Ok, so it's not all laughs and is accompanied by buckets full of tears and a rage that takes serious energy to control... but fuck it, it's always been like this so it's all good :killingme

[tigertim20]

regarding the uselessness of a utilitarian society.
you need to either engage it in its purest form, or decide at what points you want to make compromises.
Pure utilitarian society tends to not be too far away from a political regime that in recent history the world has fought to get away from in the interests of personal and political freedom.

Standing in a field, doing nothing but yell 'HEY NO FAIR, YOU GOT MORE TOYS THAN ME' isnt going to change the current discourse. ACTION, not crying creates change, and there are a number of ways I can think of in which these people could create change and lead society towards, or at least introduce it to, THEIR idea of how society should operate.

[FJRider]

Standing in a field, doing nothing but yell 'HEY NO FAIR, YOU GOT MORE TOYS THAN ME' isnt going to change the current discourse ....

And standing in a field (or street) shouting Hey no fair, you got more money than I have, give it to me ... ...is not going to change much either


ACTION, not crying creates change, and there are a number of ways I can think of in which these people could create change and lead society towards, or at least introduce it to, THEIR idea of how society should operate.

Crying (with real tears) has effect ... but little result. Their idea of how society should operate is ... more money for doing less ... and more say for them to say how YOUR money is spent ...

[Berries]

I see Tigertim went down to the Octagon tonight - 'kin hippies. (http://www.odt.co.nz/news/your-news/183478/octagon-protesters-protested)

[Winston001]

I think the protests are about the lack of consequences for financiers and money market operators. If most of us were in charge of a business which lost millions of dollars, we'd lose our job or the business. Not so for these guys. There is a disconnect between effort and reward - but the average person bears the cost either through a thin retirement return or taxpayer support.

Here is what Warren Buffet, the most successful investor and one of the world's wealthiest men said:


"OUR leaders have asked for “shared sacrifice.” But when they did the asking, they spared me. I checked with my mega-rich friends to learn what pain they were expecting. They, too, were left untouched.

While the poor and middle class fight for us in Afghanistan, and while most Americans struggle to make ends meet, we mega-rich continue to get our extraordinary tax breaks. Some of us are investment managers who earn billions from our daily labors but are allowed to classify our income as “carried interest,” thereby getting a bargain 15 percent tax rate. Others own stock index futures for 10 minutes and have 60 percent of their gain taxed at 15 percent, as if they’d been long-term investor."


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/15/opinion/stop-coddling-the-super-rich.html

[mashman]

regarding the uselessness of a utilitarian society.
you need to either engage it in its purest form, or decide at what points you want to make compromises.
Pure utilitarian society tends to not be too far away from a political regime that in recent history the world has fought to get away from in the interests of personal and political freedom.

Standing in a field, doing nothing but yell 'HEY NO FAIR, YOU GOT MORE TOYS THAN ME' isnt going to change the current discourse. ACTION, not crying creates change, and there are a number of ways I can think of in which these people could create change and lead society towards, or at least introduce it to, THEIR idea of how society should operate.


But has a utilitatian society ever been tried? not that that's what I'd like.
The purest form of any societal model will never work, we're all to different for that eh. Not sure what you mean by compromises? If you mean picking and choosing from other societal "models", errrrrrrrr, nah I can't see that being beneficial. I'd rather we looked at the "problem" from a getting rid of money/value system point of view and then went from there. Societies have to constantly "evolve", imho, to cater for the living standards available to us, taking into account the current and near future states of technology,the environment etc... and making sensible decisions in regards to the impacts on the essentials of life... after that innovation will lead the way to fulfil our needs. Currently that's hampered by budget constraint for the majority, something I do not agree with. Especially when you consider that Einstein and probably many other geniuses of their time were "hobbyists". I can't start to imagine what we're missing in regards to innovation/creativity because the genius in question has to work on the bin lorry because his social skills aren't up to making it in the boys club. Extreme example maybe, but I doubt it's that far from the mark.

Standing in a field and yelling, 'IT'S NOT FAIR THAT I HAVE TO PAY TAXES TO FEED PEOPLE WHO DON'T WORK' isn't going to change it either :bleh:. Then there's action, hmmmm let's see now, standing in a field asking for change or storming the castle and forcing change, potentially causing civil war and risking your liberty (woulda said freedom, but we aren't free) for something that would no doubt be called a terrorist act... what a choice. Hardly surprising we're in fields.

What are the number of ways you can think of?

[scumdog]

But has a utilitatian society ever been tried? not that that's what I'd like.
The purest form of any societal model will never work, we're all to different for that eh.

Damn tootin' right.

Too many lazy bastards for it to work.

[mashman]

Too many lazy bastards for it to work.

I disagree, but will spare ya'll the finer details :laugh:. If done properly, there should be more room for more lazy bastards as we have more than enough people to do everything we need for society to keep on spinning...

[tigertim20]

What are the number of ways you can think of?

For one, get involved in the discourse you seek to change. You cannot create change from the outside. get involved in business, and use leading by example to show that there is a better way that makes more people happy (I say more 'cos youll never please everyone).
Yes, doing this would take a long time to have an affect, but look at any major societal normality that has had its discourse changed (womens rights, apartheid, black slavery etc) - they have all taken TIME to change, - it wasnt changed by people standing in a field complaining, thinking that their little protest was going to change things overnight. In those examples, things were changed because people got involved at all levels and tackled the issue head on. At present, the protesters have a particular image, which to many people is not a particularly positive one. If they change their approach, theyll change their image, which will increase their perceived validity, theyll gain supprt, and MAYBE, they can facilitate change.


I disagree, but will spare ya'll the finer details :laugh:. If done properly, there should be more room for more lazy bastards as we have more than enough people to do everything we need for society to keep on spinning...

I think you have a tad too much faith in human nature!:blink:

[mashman]

For one, get involved in the discourse you seek to change. You cannot create change from the outside. get involved in business, and use leading by example to show that there is a better way that makes more people happy (I say more 'cos youll never please everyone).
Yes, doing this would take a long time to have an affect, but look at any major societal normality that has had its discourse changed (womens rights, apartheid, black slavery etc) - they have all taken TIME to change, - it wasnt changed by people standing in a field complaining, thinking that their little protest was going to change things overnight. In those examples, things were changed because people got involved at all levels and tackled the issue head on. At present, the protesters have a particular image, which to many people is not a particularly positive one. If they change their approach, theyll change their image, which will increase their perceived validity, theyll gain supprt, and MAYBE, they can facilitate change.

I shall call bullshit on your suggestion. Getting involved to make a difference :rofl:. Several parties have tried over decades to break the status quo Red or Blue, yet get absolutely nowhere. Even our glorious leader won't lead the opposition (IF the Nats lose the election) because he believes it to be a fruitless pursuit. So yeah, bullshit. It takes next to no time at all to change anything. What changes from 1 day to the next in regards to the likes of womens rights, apartheid, black slavery etc... that "it" all of a sudden becomes acceptable? The minds of those in power. Not trying to sound condescending or throw your suggestion in your face, but nothing has changed since forever, other than a smattering of human rights gained and many freedoms taken. Fuck that shit, I'd rather storm the castle and bypass/replace the narrow minded ineffectual bureaucratic bullshit that the politicians spin, hide behind and then defend as the only way forwards. They're fuckin with peoples lives.

The Protesters Image, :rofl:, that has to be the single most pathetic recurring statement I ever hear... It's up there with, oh look, they're using the products that they're railing against, oh the hypocrisy of it all... oh they just don't look right, we obviously can't trust what they stand for, they must be dole bludgers, they should get jobs and a message... whereas if they had a nice smile and wore suits I could probably take them seriously :killingme. FARKIN pathetic! Sounds like Sheeples to me.

Nah, Standing in the field still sounds like the best option, all they need is for the govt to engage them in discussion, bwaaaaaaa ha ha ha haaaaaaa, tui? It's not rocket science and when it comes to changing taxation laws, they do these things under urgency all the time, just not for the right reasons. Nail the tax dodgers or GTFO and stop encouraging rorting of the country's finances! Actually, storming the castle sounds bettererr and bettererer as an option all the time.



I think you have a tad too much faith in human nature!:blink:

Someone has to... you may wanna try it someday.

[mashman]

If YOU were a head honcho of a billion dollar corporation earning millions through making smart, informed business and political decisions that continued to increase both your personal wealth, as well as the value of your company/corporation, would you just sit back and let some hippy arseholes demand you stop, reduce your wealth and walk away? fuck no you wouldnt.

So this sort of thing is ok then? (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/10754685/leaks-show-pharmac-a-target-opponents/) after all, it's only a few Kiwi lives that could be saved/lost

[98tls]

nice and wet in a tent tonight

Wouldnt matter what night they did it,rains 365 days a year down in that shithole doesnt it?if its not raining its misty and gloomy enough to be considered rain.

[JimO]

Wouldnt matter what night they did it,rains 365 days a year down in that shithole doesnt it?if its not raining its misty and gloomy enough to be considered rain.

na mate thats just a rumor we spread to keep all the north islanders away, good day here today the snow has almost melted

[98tls]

na mate thats just a rumor we spread to keep all the north islanders away, good day here today the snow has almost melted

Good point,:facepalm:silly me.

[FJRider]

na mate thats just a rumor we spread to keep all the north islanders away, good day here today the snow has almost melted

And the last three ice-bergs were towed out of the harbour ...

[scumdog]

And the last three ice-bergs were towed out of the harbour ...

And



i've hung up my snow-shoes for the rest of the year...

[DrunkenMistake]

And



i've hung up my snow-shoes for the rest of the year...

Now now,
your further south than we are,
You can hardly be apart of this haha, 98tls is just a little upset someone took his Banjo while walking the street of Oamaru :P

[Berries]

98tls is just a little upset someone took his Banjo while walking the street of Oamaru :P
It's safe to do that now then?

Next you know they will have electric as well.

[Virago]

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/310299_2579113196276_1207789153_3478242_618168026_ n.jpg

[RDJ]

The Dunedin police are choosing selective enforcement of the law... how else to interpret this? They label it an occupation themselves; they acknowledge it is interfering with freedom of movement for the taxpaying public; but...

"The stand-off between Dunedin City Council and anti-capitalism protestors occupying the Octagon has intensified. Dunedin police have ruled out enforcing trespass notices to the group issued at the end of October...."

Dear Inspector Sparrow @ Dunedin; are you occupying the job we pay you for, or not?

:corn:

[scumdog]

The Dunedin police are choosing selective enforcement of the law... how else to interpret this? They label it an occupation themselves; they acknowledge it is interfering with freedom of movement for the taxpaying public; but...

"The stand-off between Dunedin City Council and anti-capitalism protestors occupying the Octagon has intensified. Dunedin police have ruled out enforcing trespass notices to the group issued at the end of October...."

Dear Inspector Sparrow @ Dunedin; are you occupying the job we pay you for, or not?

:corn:


Classic!!

Somebody with a KB degree in Law and Politics...:clap:

(And who believes the media)

[Berries]

The Dunedin police are choosing selective enforcement of the law... how else to interpret this? They label it an occupation themselves; they acknowledge it is interfering with freedom of movement for the taxpaying public; but...
As much as I would like to see some batons bouncing off heads in the Octagon you might want to read this -

Kill the Hippies (http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/185912/eviction-police-between-rock-and-hard-place)

[unstuck]

Ignore it and it will go away. Hmmmm:blink:

[oneofsix]

As much as I would like to see some batons bouncing off heads in the Octagon you might want to read this -

Kill the Hippies (http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/185912/eviction-police-between-rock-and-hard-place)

Seemed a well reasoned piece as far as media goes. If we loss the right to peaceful protest then how do you speak out for you believes and what is to stop some woazer of a Councillor deciding something like the poker or toy run should be stopped?
I didn't like the idea of a non-notifier notice in the courts, thought the idea of the courts was to hear both sides, so I am glad National HQ squashed that idea. You wouldn't even know you were breaking the law until it was too late and probably get into resisting arrest thinking you were being bullied. Frightening that the possibility of the non-notified notice exists, imagine if a council decided that was a good way to fix the motorcycle parking issue. :shutup:

[BoristheBiter]

Seemed a well reasoned piece as far as media goes. If we loss the right to peaceful protest then how do you speak out for you believes and what is to stop some woazer of a Councillor deciding something like the poker or toy run should be stopped?
I didn't like the idea of a non-notifier notice in the courts, thought the idea of the courts was to hear both sides, so I am glad National HQ squashed that idea. You wouldn't even know you were breaking the law until it was too late and probably get into resisting arrest thinking you were being bullied. Frightening that the possibility of the non-notified notice exists, imagine if a council decided that was a good way to fix the motorcycle parking issue. :shutup:

I agree to a point.

The trespass notice is for camping not for protesting. All the police need to do is uphold the no camping bylaw and if the protesters stop them from removing the tents etc then arrest them for obstruction.

It just show's that TPTB don't have a fucking clue.

[oneofsix]

I agree to a point.

The trespass notice is for camping not for protesting. All the police need to do is uphold the no camping bylaw and if the protesters stop them from removing the tents etc then arrest them for obstruction.

It just show's that TPTB don't have a fucking clue.

that would be where the law would get tricky. Council says the tents are camping, protesters say the tents are part of the protesting.

[BoristheBiter]

that would be where the law would get tricky. Council says the tents are camping, protesters say the tents are part of the protesting.

I would think the definition would be easy.
camping, present participle of camp (Verb) Live for a time in a camp, tent, or camper.

I just think the balls have dropped off the justice system.

[RDJ]

Classic!!

Somebody with a KB degree in Law and Politics...:clap:

(And who believes the media)

Yes, I suppose the media may have misquoted Inspector Sparrow but I believed his words. If he uttered them, then it's me believing him. Was he misquoted?

As regards the KB LLB: actually, the tenor of your posts does seem to support the conclusion that you and your collective would prefer us captive taxpayers to pay up, shut up, and quietly appreciate the beneficent decisions made by your elites for us; but, as someone else said, "If something cannot go on forever, it will stop". And too many bad decisions - and even more, too many coverups - are leading your customers to our own conclusion; that we cannot afford in the financial as well as the personal safety senses, to continue taking all the medicine your leadership enforces upon us.

[oneofsix]

I would think the definition would be easy.
camping, present participle of camp (Verb) Live for a time in a camp, tent, or camper.

I just think the balls have dropped off the justice system.

:clap:yes that is a definition of camping but camping can be used as a form of protest, just like motorcycle riding has a definition but can also be used as a form of protest and just like walking, but for some reason you have to call it a hikoi or a march to make walking to the middle of the road a form of protest.

[Banditbandit]

Rememebr the three protestors who damaged the dome over the Waihopai spy base dish? Taken to court for intentional damage . Found Not Guilty. The police will be justifiably wary about charging protestors after that one ...

It was a form of protest and a jury of 12 good citizens said "Not Guilty" ...

[RDJ]

Respectfully suggest Waihopai was different. The police took the action, the jury heard the evidence and came to a conclusion. In this present case it appears from the comments made by Inspector S, that the police in Dunedin have decided not to take any action... are instead pre-judging.

Meanwhile, not only are we / the locals paying for the direct consequences of this "occupation"; we're also encouraging treatment based on special 'cultural' interests... of which we have had more than enough already.

If you pay taxes, would you rather that you don't have to pay taxes based on someone carrying out an unlawful protest more or less indefinitely? Which is again different from a quantitative point of view, than a protest ride or a hikoi march. Of course for all those who are able-bodied but still collect more from the government in confiscated tax receipts than they contribute in taxes paid, then I can perfectly understand they don't see a problem.

[BoristheBiter]

:clap:yes that is a definition of camping but camping can be used as a form of protest, just like motorcycle riding has a definition but can also be used as a form of protest and just like walking, but for some reason you have to call it a hikoi or a march to make walking to the middle of the road a form of protest.

camping isn't protesting, just like riding to wellington wasn't protesting, we protested when we got there.

I have nothing against this protest (other than i think it's a bollocks cause) but they are breaking a law and should be held to account.

[misterO]

My wife and I like to eat at Nova two or three times a month- it's a nice little cafe on the Octagon. We haven't gone there since this silly protest began because we just don't want to deal with the crowd of silly people. Nova is a small business that pays taxes and insurance and all the rest, and they employ people who are actually willing to work for a living (and depend on those wages). I'm sure Nova, and other downtown businesses, won't go bankrupt just because the two of us now avoid the Octagon, but I wonder how many other citizens are keeping their wallets away from the city centre. It doesn't seem fair. Ironic, isn't it?

[RDJ]

My wife and I like to eat at Nova two or three times a month- it's a nice little cafe on the Octagon. We haven't gone there since this silly protest began because we just don't want to deal with the crowd of silly people. Nova is a small business that pays taxes and insurance and all the rest, and they employ people who are actually willing to work for a living (and depend on those wages). I'm sure Nova, and other downtown businesses, won't go bankrupt just because the two of us now avoid the Octagon, but I wonder how many other citizens are keeping their wallets away from the city centre. It doesn't seem fair. Ironic, isn't it?

And this is being repeated all around the world at this Occupied Zones. The lefty halfwits running these shows could care less as long as they can still get their hands on the product of someone else's efforts. If they can reason at all, their reasoning probably goes "If Nova goes broke and stops paying taxes, well just tax the rest more!" But that is probably giving them too much credit, they're likely too dim to see the pretty direct relationship between cause and effect you have described above. And as the saying goes, "the person who wants to rob Peter to pay Paul, will always have the support of Paul."

[Virago]

I can understand that this is a legal minefield.

But the Dunedin City Council has the responsibility of ensuring the good condition of the Octagon reserve land. I don't see any problem with the excessive use of water sprinklers, to ensure that the grass survives...:shifty:

[Banditbandit]

Respectfully suggest Waihopai was different. The police took the action, the jury heard the evidence and came to a conclusion. In this present case it appears from the comments made by Inspector S, that the police in Dunedin have decided not to take any action... are instead pre-judging.


I respectfully respond that the police make decisions in the light of past experience and precedent .. and Waihopai would be one of those events which may well have influenced this decision ...

[oneofsix]

I respectfully respond that the police make decisions in the light of past experience and precedent .. and Waihopai would be one of those events which may well have influenced this decision ...

I would also like to point out that with Waihopai they had to deal with a instantaneous event so they had to arrest and then consult. With the Occupy Dunedin, by nature of occupy, they have a longer term event and therefore time to consult before acting and 'the computer said no'.

[Winston001]

I say the protesters should go for broke and see how far they can push the Man.

Political protest in New Zealand has been almost invisible for the past 30 years which suggests we are reasonably happy or not very aware.

Whatever the reason, the good old days of the late 60s and early 70s when demonstrations in the street were strong and forceful are missed. People don't seem to care about stuff anymore.

The last big demos were against Hubert Humphrey (VP of the USA) and the Vietnam War. Since then, Bastion Point, farmers cutting sheep's throats in Invercargill streets, and Moutoa Gardens in Wanganui. We are too laid back for our own good.

The Occupy protesters are disorganised, unclear on their message, and...harmless. A few tents in the Octagon. They'll tire of it soon enough.

The critical point is recognising the freedom of others to publicly speak. We don't have to like them or agree with them but we must respect the right.

[oldrider]

I say the protesters should go for broke and see how far they can push the Man.

Political protest in New Zealand has been almost invisible for the past 30 years which suggests we are reasonably happy or not very aware.

Whatever the reason, the good old days of the late 60s and early 70s when demonstrations in the street were strong and forceful are missed. People don't seem to care about stuff anymore.

The last big demos were against Hubert Humphrey (VP of the USA) and the Vietnam War. Since then, Bastion Point, farmers cutting sheep's throats in Invercargill streets, and Moutoa Gardens in Wanganui. We are too laid back for our own good.

The Occupy protesters are disorganised, unclear on their message, and...harmless. A few tents in the Octagon. They'll tire of it soon enough.

The critical point is recognising the freedom of others to publicly speak. We don't have to like them or agree with them but we must respect the right.

Careful what you wish for Winston, you may not have long to wait and it won't be pretty, I selfishly hope it will be after I die! :yes: :(

[jazfender]

camping isn't protesting, just like riding to wellington wasn't protesting, we protested when we got there.

I have nothing against this protest (other than i think it's a bollocks cause) but they are breaking a law and should be held to account.

Nah that's bullshit. Everybody knows a big part of a protest ride is the ride.

How would it look if bikers just flew to Wellington to protest?

[jazfender]

Further to that, you don't protest by staying in your house and peacefully eating your fucking peas. It has to be seen, has to have a public presence - this is in the same vein as a biker protest or a SlutWalk.

Legit.

[JimO]

i vote the drunk guy who head butted the protester as "man of the match"

[oldrider]

i vote the drunk guy who head butted the protester as "man of the match"

Yes I agree, it was at least shot of the day! :devil2:

[BoristheBiter]

Further to that, you don't protest by staying in your house and peacefully eating your fucking peas. It has to be seen, has to have a public presence - this is in the same vein as a biker protest or a SlutWalk.

Legit.

Yes and the ones that it's effecting are not the ones that can make any change.
So just another fuck everyone off protest.

At least when we rode to wellington we had a point to make.

[jazfender]

Fuck I dunno why I bother.

[scumdog]

Fuck I dunno why I bother.



You bother???:confused:

[MIXONE]

Yes I agree, it was at least shot of the day! :devil2:

Or "Smashed Him Bro".

[BoristheBiter]

Fuck I dunno why I bother.

But you still do, says a lot:weird:

[mashman]

But you still do, says a lot:weird:

that he gives a shit? WOW! what a refreshing change.

[BoristheBiter]

that he gives a shit? WOW! what a refreshing change.

Not why I think he bothers but go on then.

[mashman]

Not why I think he bothers but go on then.

I guess it's all point of view. I feel his frustration in regards to the Occupy movement and those who pour scalding water over it.

[BoristheBiter]

I guess it's all point of view. I feel his frustration in regards to the Occupy movement and those who pour scalding water over it.

What about the frustration of the business's that are trying to make a living but can't due to customers staying away?
It's not like in Auckland where they are not in way of everyday business.

I am all for free speech and the right to do so, but when if effects someone else's life (and the protesters don't care) then, for me, it looses all creditably and smacks of hypocrisy.

[mashman]

What about the frustration of the business's that are trying to make a living but can't due to customers staying away?
It's not like in Auckland where they are not in way of everyday business.

I am all for free speech and the right to do so, but when if effects someone else's life (and the protesters don't care) then, for me, it looses all creditably and smacks of hypocrisy.

Why are the customers staying away (are they protesting by staying away)? How are they in the way?

Who says the protesters don't care? and what about some of those that they're protesting about and the number of lives and livelihoods they don't care about year in year out, not just for a few weeks?

[BoristheBiter]

Why are the customers staying away (are they protesting by staying away)? How are they in the way?

Who says the protesters don't care? and what about some of those that they're protesting about and the number of lives and livelihoods they don't care about year in year out, not just for a few weeks?

I can't find the report but there was an article on the protesters shitting in the streets when it first started. That would be enough to stop me going anywhere near them.

And the protesters said as much when interviewed and asked the same question.

[mashman]

I can't find the report but there was an article on the protesters shitting in the streets when it first started. That would be enough to stop me going anywhere near them.

And the protesters said as much when interviewed and asked the same question.

I woulda thought that woulda been headline news. Farkin disgusting I agree... perhaps the businesses could have made there facilities available to the protesters (or is that sort of thing reserved for paying customers only :innocent:)? Did the council put in portaloos or anything like that (or is that reserved for profit making functions :innocent:)? Surely they would if it was affecting local businesses? Fortunately the Welly mob have a bog a short walk away.

[scumdog]

Who says the protesters don't care? and what about some of those that they're protesting about and the number of lives and livelihoods they don't care about year in year out, not just for a few weeks?

Looking at the cut of the jib of a fair few 'protestors' I get the impression they are 'alternative lifestylers' and a minority.

Their protest will affect large corperations like a paintball gun affects a rhino - colourful, a minute irritation, almost zero impact and soon forgotten... :yes:

[JimO]

they will have used up all their holidays by now

[Virago]

they will have used up all their holidays by now

Do beneficiaries get holidays...?

[scissorhands]

Things are not as they seem with the occupy movement.....

[Oscar]

I guess it's all point of view. I feel his frustration in regards to the Occupy movement and those who pour scalding water over it.

How are you supporting them?
Where do you think your Aprillia comes from?
Hand built by starving artisans in an anarchic collective or from some faceless corporation?

[mashman]

Looking at the cut of the jib of a fair few 'protestors' I get the impression they are 'alternative lifestylers' and a minority.

Their protest will affect large corperations like a paintball gun affects a rhino - colourful, a minute irritation, almost zero impact and soon forgotten...

:rofl: so there's fewer people who understand that real change is needed, there ain't no surprise there. Doesn't make them wrong in my eyes, alternative lifestylers or not.

Again, no surprise there as I've said as much myself on the thread (I hope we're wrong though :yes:)... but I doubt it'll be forgotten, it may be, but I doubt it. Perhaps it'll spawn something entirely different.



Things are not as they seem with the occupy movement.....

??? do tell.



How are you supporting them?
Where do you think your Aprillia comes from?
Hand built by starving artisans in an anarchic collective or from some faceless corporation?


I'm not "against" them... and that's about all I can do without putting my family life on the line. Otherwise I'd be there in a heartbeat banging my heart against some mad buggas wall.
:rofl: oh dear, so very predictable and unimaginative. I guess you miss the point/s.

[BoristheBiter]

I woulda thought that woulda been headline news. Farkin disgusting I agree... perhaps the businesses could have made there facilities available to the protesters (or is that sort of thing reserved for paying customers only :innocent:)? Did the council put in portaloos or anything like that (or is that reserved for profit making functions :innocent:)? Surely they would if it was affecting local businesses? Fortunately the Welly mob have a bog a short walk away.

Why should the business make their facilities available? if they are paying customers then fine but then they all go to MCD's to get the free wifi for their IPhone's.

Again why should the council pay for portaloo's? Shouldn't these protesters thought of that when they where getting organised? but then they would have to pay for something and that's what this is all about in the end isn't it, getting more for less.

[Oscar]

I'm not "against" them... and that's about all I can do without putting my family life on the line. Otherwise I'd be there in a heartbeat banging my heart against some mad buggas wall.
:rofl: oh dear, so very predictable and unimaginative. I guess you miss the point/s.

Miss the point?
Far from it.

What I'm saying is if you support them, you are also supporting the corporates you/they rail against.
Have you/they given up your iPad, your Vodafone connection and your Italian Motorcycle??
Until you do, you're only dumb consumers putting money in the pockets of those you complain about.

[oneofsix]

Miss the point?
Far from it.

What I'm saying is if you support them, you are also supporting the corporates you/they rail against.
Have you/they given up your iPad, your Vodafone connection and your Italian Motorcycle??
Until you do, you're only dumb consumers putting money in the pockets of those you complain about.

Yep you miss the point. It is not about corporates that make our toys its about the corporates like the banks and financial institutions that rip us and our toy makers off whilst contributing very little.

[mashman]

Why should the business make their facilities available? if they are paying customers then fine but then they all go to MCD's to get the free wifi for their IPhone's.

Again why should the council pay for portaloo's? Shouldn't these protesters thought of that when they where getting organised? but then they would have to pay for something and that's what this is all about in the end isn't it, getting more for less.

That's a fair point, albeit somewhat childish and cutting your nose off to spite your face given that people are staying away because of the shit in the streets... Oh noes, people go to MCD's and use free wifi :shit:. They must be getting kicked out if they're not paying customers. Or aren't they allowed to use the toilets but the wifi is fine. I take your point, but if they truly believe that it's affecting business and the toilet is just sitting there ready to be used, then why not kill a few birds with 1 stone?

You're right that the protesters shoulda taken potty time into account. But people throw litter away all the time and the council clean up after them, why not pop a couple of portaloos in the square for the street shitters to use and negate the need for cleanup? There's sense and then there's being bloody minded, and because of what the protesters stand for, bloody mindedness seems to be winning the day. It's awful funny.



Miss the point?
Far from it.

What I'm saying is if you support them, you are also supporting the corporates you/they rail against.
Have you/they given up your iPad, your Vodafone connection and your Italian Motorcycle??
Until you do, you're only dumb consumers putting money in the pockets of those you complain about.

I've already paid for my "stuff", as has anyone else that currently has "stuff"... throwing it away would be kinda pointless, that's the point you miss. I'd understand your argument for buying future "stuff", but to a certain degree it's unavoidable to support a corporate given their "monopolies"... and as the locals charge too much (less volume sales higher pricing, right?), then there's precious little choice when it comes to saving a few $$$ but to support a corporate... especially if that something you need is vital for your work. Technology is awesome. It's a shame there are those who constrain it by releasing fads and maximising profits.



Yep you miss the point. It is not about corporates that make our toys its about the corporates like the banks and financial institutions that rip us and our toy makers off whilst contributing very little.


To be fair, and maybe only in my eyes, the toy making corporates are in there too... just a lot further down the list, :rofl:, than the banksters and the extreme money hoarders. For me the toy boys are pumping more gadgets out than they need to (e.g. a phone every year... wait 5 years then upgrade the masses with useful shit, not just some smart voice recognition feature, waste of resources etc...), but I guess that's what it takes to stay in business. But that's a whole other argument I guess.

[Oscar]

Yep you miss the point. It is not about corporates that make our toys its about the corporates like the banks and financial institutions that rip us and our toy makers off whilst contributing very little.

That's a very shallow view.
To use Aprillia as an example, it's a product of the Piaggio Group in Italy.
Italy is one of the most corrupt first world economies, one that requires propping up by the very Banks you're complaining about.

[BoristheBiter]

To be fair, and maybe only in my eyes, the toy making corporates are in there too... just a lot further down the list, :rofl:, than the banksters and the extreme money hoarders. For me the toy boys are pumping more gadgets out than they need to (e.g. a phone every year... wait 5 years then upgrade the masses with useful shit, not just some smart voice recognition feature, waste of resources etc...), but I guess that's what it takes to stay in business. But that's a whole other argument I guess.

To be fair all business are in it to make money, if not it's called a charity, but like you I'm sure they are more concerned with the "banksters and the extreme money hoarders" (like that phrase). But we go to work to make money (well some do but that's a different thread) or we wouldn't go, so there is no real difference just the scale of money concerned.

I would like to know what banks, if any, the protesters use.

[mashman]

To be fair all business are in it to make money, if not it's called a charity, but like you I'm sure they are more concerned with the "banksters and the extreme money hoarders" (like that phrase). But we go to work to make money (well some do but that's a different thread) or we wouldn't go, so there is no real difference just the scale of money concerned.

I would like to know what banks, if any, the protesters use.

heh, very true, especially the scale bit (but not the need for the different thread. We're talking money after all.), tis just a shame that all roads lead to the same place. Need money to start a business get a loan from the bank, own the business but need cash to expand get a loan from the bank, need money for a mortgage get a loan from the bank, you are a bank and need to get more money to lend get a loan from the next bank up the chain etc... The funny thing is, is that some banks somewhere further up the chain pluck money out of thin air. I'm still waiting for someone to disprove that FACT! And unfortunately that leads to money hoardering (successful people maybe and good on them :blink: given the way society works and values them), and unfortunately that means we need to go to work (to be able to afford essentials to survive, and THAT is well known by the 1% hence lower wages further down :facepalm:) so that we can help in turning that profit that the company needs to store in the bank, only for the bank to class that as new money and to lend it out several times over to those who need money for whatever purpose.

It kinda flies in the face of a prosperous NZ. For example: A global computer consultancy sets up shop in NZ. We all scream hurrah as they're bringing jobs, which means more money coming into the NZ economy. Now the only reason, well not the only reason maybe, but as far as the board is concerned, the only reason to be in NZ is to turn a profit. Now that means there's more money going out of NZ than there is coming in. How can that be so? They have to pay the wages for the jobs they have created and still turn a profit, simple. Now the $64 million question is: How does NZ benefit from the consultancy setting up shop in NZ?

It's laughable that foreign companies receive tax incentives for providing jobs when they're taking more money out of the NZ economy than they're putting in... and yet for some unknown reason only a few people understand this simple concept. Perhaps that's a tad unfair, perhaps they just haven't thought about it.

Does it really matter what banks they use if all roads lead to the same place? Which they do... more commonly referred to as the 1% imho.

[Oscar]

It kinda flies in the face of a prosperous NZ. For example: A global computer consultancy sets up shop in NZ. We all scream hurrah as they're bringing jobs, which means more money coming into the NZ economy. Now the only reason, well not the only reason maybe, but as far as the board is concerned, the only reason to be in NZ is to turn a profit. Now that means there's more money going out of NZ than there is coming in. How can that be so? They have to pay the wages for the jobs they have created and still turn a profit, simple. Now the $64 million question is: How does NZ benefit from the consultancy setting up shop in NZ?



How much profit do they have to turn so that the net effect is money going off-shore?

As you say, it pays its staff.
Where is it housed?
It pays rent and/or rates.

It pays 15% GST on everything it buys in NZ even if it doesn't turn a profit.
If it does turn a profit, it pays company tax.

[mashman]

How much profit do they have to turn so that the net effect is money going off-shore?

As you say, it pays its staff.
Where is it housed?
It pays rent and/or rates.

It pays 15% GST on everything it buys in NZ even if it doesn't turn a profit.
If it does turn a profit, it pays company tax.

Dunno how much, but enough to pay the bills you're talking about and to make a profit... else why would they setup shop in a foreign country?

[Oscar]

Dunno how much, but enough to pay the bills you're talking about and to make a profit... else why would they setup shop in a foreign country?

Because they've reached the limit in their own country?

If they stimulate the local economy by paying wages and taxes, why do you care?
Do you have an example of a company that takes more out than it leaves here?
Do you realise how many of the enterprises is NZ are foreign owned?
Or in Australia for that matter?

Isn't it a little hypocritical for NZ to sell its products all over the world and then complain about foreign investment?

[oneofsix]

Dunno how much, but enough to pay the bills you're talking about and to make a profit... else why would they setup shop in a foreign country?

Did you somewhere say the money ever comes on shore? You scenario was a global computer consultancy setting up in NZ, sounds a bit like help desk in India, any way the money for wages, buildings, electricity etc has to flow into NZ but the profit could be being made by a company in the EU paying the US company for services that are provided out of NZ in which case no money flows out of NZ.

[BoristheBiter]

How much profit do they have to turn so that the net effect is money going off-shore?

As you say, it pays its staff.
Where is it housed?
It pays rent and/or rates.

It pays 15% GST on everything it buys in NZ even if it doesn't turn a profit.
If it does turn a profit, it pays company tax.

That's not entirely correct.

I contract to a company that runs at a lose here, because of such it gets rebates on tax and GST.
It sells its products at a low cost to its parent company in Aussie that then sells it for its true cost and makes a profit, but then because it props up the original company it gets that tax breaks in Aussie.

My company if my sales drop I get a GST rebate and pay no tax but I still get paid.

Its called creative accounting.

[mashman]

Because they've reached the limit in their own country?

If they stimulate the local economy by paying wages and taxes, why do you care?
Do you have an example of a company that takes more out than it leaves here?
Do you realise how many of the enterprises is NZ are foreign owned?
Or in Australia for that matter?

Isn't it a little hypocritical for NZ to sell its products all over the world and then complain about foreign investment?

Could be. Could be that they've identified a "skills" shortage here and have sprung to our rescue... but they come here to make money, not lose it don't they?

I don't overly care. I do find it funny that local man power is used to benefit overseas businesses under the guise of stimulating the economy where that very same business is probably pulling more out of the economy than it's putting in. If they're here to make money from the local population (which they usually are), then I would have thought the outputs would be greater than the inputs.

Nope, I don't have an example because I don't know for a fact (go on, have a rant on me)... although ANZ and their recent $1 billion profit would probably spring to mind. I doubt the whole $1 billion was sucked from NZ, but who knows?

Nope. How many are there?

Nope. How many are there?

Not overly, it's business :rofl:.



Did you somewhere say the money ever comes on shore? You scenario was a global computer consultancy setting up in NZ, sounds a bit like help desk in India, any way the money for wages, buildings, electricity etc has to flow into NZ but the profit could be being made by a company in the EU paying the US company for services that are provided out of NZ in which case no money flows out of NZ.

No... but that's a bloody good question... and very true in regard to using NZ as a service... guess that leads to Oscars question above in regards to who owns NZ's enterprises. Although I would guess, only guess, that that service industry is miniscule as we're too expensive of a resource to pay for where you could get the same overseas much cheaper.

[Oscar]

That's not entirely correct.

I contract to a company that runs at a lose here, because of such it gets rebates on tax and GST.
It sells its products at a low cost to its parent company in Aussie that then sells it for its true cost and makes a profit, but then because it props up the original company it gets that tax breaks in Aussie.

My company if my sales drop I get a GST rebate and pay no tax but I still get paid.

Its called creative accounting.

Looks like tax evasion.

[Oscar]

Nope, I don't have an example because I don't know for a fact (go on, have a rant on me)... although ANZ and their recent $1 billion profit would probably spring to mind. I doubt the whole $1 billion was sucked from NZ, but who knows?



This is a good example of a figure being taken out of context (you could write Labour Party PR).
ANZ are the largest bank operating in NZ and have gross assets of in excess of $115billion, how much profit do you think they should earn?

[BoristheBiter]

Looks like tax evasion.

A book by any other name?

[Oscar]

A book by any other name?

No seriously - it looks like tax evasion.
Not tax avoidance, but tax evasion.

[BoristheBiter]

No seriously - it looks like tax evasion.
Not tax avoidance, but tax evasion.

It is but all legal.
All money's are accounted for and disclosed, and under the laws at the moment perfectly legal.

[Oscar]

It is but all legal.
All money's are accounted for and disclosed, and under the laws at the moment perfectly legal.

The IRD has a catch all test: if it was done for the sole purpose of reducing tax, it's illegal.
Ask any surgeon.

[mashman]

This is a good example of a figure being taken out of context (you could write Labour Party PR).
ANZ are the largest bank operating in NZ and have gross assets of in excess of $115billion, how much profit do you think they should earn?

:rofl: so did they take out more than they put in?

[Oscar]

:rofl: so did they take out more than they put in?

You have no clue about business and economics do you?
Actually, the fact that you think that your comment is funny indicates that you simply have no clue...

[mashman]

You have no clue about business and economics do you?
Actually, the fact that you think that your comment is funny indicates that you simply have no clue...

A clue yes, a wealth of knowledge, no. But that doesn't answer the question (which was a simple as I am). Something I have come to associate with your good self. You should PR for the Nats.

I was laughing at your question in regards to how much profit I think they should earn, not my question, there was a question mark in there wasn't there (rhetorical bordering on blatant sarcasm), why yes, there was, so that makes it a question, not a comment :bleh:

[mashman]

It is but all legal.
All money's are accounted for and disclosed, and under the laws at the moment perfectly legal.

therein lies the rub... something we all have to accept, we may not like it, some may even protest over something similar :msn-wink:, but the law is the law and can be translated (I thought it was a nice word) to protect a questionable position.

[Oscar]

A clue yes, a wealth of knowledge, no. But that doesn't answer the question (which was a simple as I am). Something I have come to associate with your good self. You should PR for the Nats.

I was laughing at your question in regards to how much profit I think they should earn, not my question, there was a question mark in there wasn't there (rhetorical bordering on blatant sarcasm), why yes, there was, so that makes it a question, not a comment :bleh:

The answer to your question is yes, they put in more than they take out.
They have 9,000 staff.

Why don't you answer my question, how much should they take out?

[mashman]

The answer to your question is yes, they put in more than they take out.
They have 9,000 staff.

Why don't you answer my question, how much should they take out?

How do they do that and still make a profit?

As little as possible.

[Oscar]

How do they do that and still make a profit?

As little as possible.

So your business model would be - you can invest several billions in NZ, employ 9,000 staff, but make as small profit as possible?
Why would I want to invest with, or have my money managed by a bank like that?


What about NZ owned banks, how much profit can they make?

[avgas]

You have no clue about business and economics do you?
Actually, the fact that you think that your comment is funny indicates that you simply have no clue...
Thats a bit harsh. But your a little on the right track.

Mash - how much assets does NZ have? Is that the limit to the assets NZ has? Is there only 1 big pot of money for NZ and that is it?
Is there no way to generate income without sacrificing the money from somewhere else...in NZ?

[mashman]

I can't find the report but there was an article on the protesters shitting in the streets when it first started. That would be enough to stop me going anywhere near them.

And the protesters said as much when interviewed and asked the same question.

And according to this (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/11716813/20k-security-not-needed-for-peaceful-protest-brewer/), the council are spending $20k per week in security... perhaps a few loos and a marquee woulda "tidied" the place up a bit.

[mashman]

So your business model would be - you can invest several billions in NZ, employ 9,000 staff, but make as small profit as possible?
Why would I want to invest with, or have my money managed by a bank like that?


What about NZ owned banks, how much profit can they make?

Why would you indeed.

Erm... as much as possible.



Thats a bit harsh. But your a little on the right track.

Mash - how much assets does NZ have? Is that the limit to the assets NZ has? Is there only 1 big pot of money for NZ and that is it?
Is there no way to generate income without sacrificing the money from somewhere else...in NZ?

heh, he's 99% (snigger) Right (double rainbow).

Dunno. Depends on if you want to borrow more $$$ or not, or find investments with higher returns. Nope, but that's the only way it's gonna work.
Yes and No... have a chat with the central bank and have them do their fractional banking thang with their freshly plucked out of thin air money and if the global market doesn't blink, there'll be no sacrifice.

[Oscar]

Why would you indeed.

Erm... as much as possible.





So you're happy to be ripped off by NZ bank, but not an Aussie one?
What about an Aussie Bank with NZ shareholders?

[mashman]

So you're happy to be ripped off by NZ bank, but not an Aussie one?
What about an Aussie Bank with NZ shareholders?

Yup.
Nope.

[misterO]

Playing Devil's advocate- a well operated bank serves a legitimate need in any community. Need to buy a home? Got a good idea for a business? Those of us without a rich uncle will talk to a banker. No bank has ever forced me to take their money. Further, and more to the point, NZ banks have nothing to do with the unregulated Mega-Corporate banks in America (willfully reckless banks that were bailed out at great cost by the US taxpayer, who then gave obscene bonuses to the cowboys in charge). NZ banks aren't even slightly responsible for the current GFC. They hardly deserved the poo in the doorway left by a valiant Dunedin protester under cover of darkness. In addition, the protesters in America are dying (literally) to have the kind of health-care system that we take for granted. Mashman has made 20-30 posts in this thread alone and his avatar claiming 99% hardly seems applicable, unless it refers to the percentage of people who disagree with him. This is a biker forum. Bikers generally have a more independent streak, are more willing to think outside of the box...Rebellious, even. If Mashman's arguments don't gain traction here then it's unlikely that they will anywhere. I am a strong believer in the philosophy: think globally, act locally. The first word in that ideal is the most important: Think. Tents in a public space achieve nothing. Dressing like it's a casting call for a Woodstock movie only makes you look foolish. You want to make a positive change? Practice random acts of kindness. Get to know your neighbors. Make a note of any elderly, disabled and young families who may need a helping hand from time to time. Take a first aid course. Buy locally. Start a vegetable garden. Volunteer. A pro-active approach beats protest every time. And, more on topic, I'll leave you with advice my father gave me: NEVER buy any luxury item on credit.

[Oblivion]

Theres one thing that I think that the protesters have in common. None of them have one idea in common. Everyone of them would be there for a different reason. But the government, Even with the amount of power it has can only have a one size fits all approach. You cant just make a policy that affects Mr. Joe bloggs as an individual. Yet the people seem to think that the government can give them everything that they want. 99% of the stuff that every protestor wants is not financially viable. Yet, the people want someone to fix the economy. But, most likely, the only way to fix the economy is by the government being unpopular. The current politicians have no idea how to fix the economy in my opinion. You have Phil Goof, and Don key. Both of them are hiding behind the invisible window that they call a government.

[mashman]

Playing Devil's advocate- a well operated bank serves a legitimate need in any community. Need to buy a home? Got a good idea for a business? Those of us without a rich uncle will talk to a banker. No bank has ever forced me to take their money. Further, and more to the point, NZ banks have nothing to do with the unregulated Mega-Corporate banks in America (willfully reckless banks that were bailed out at great cost by the US taxpayer, who then gave obscene bonuses to the cowboys in charge). NZ banks aren't even slightly responsible for the current GFC. They hardly deserved the poo in the doorway left by a valiant Dunedin protester under cover of darkness. In addition, the protesters in America are dying (literally) to have the kind of health-care system that we take for granted. Mashman has made 20-30 posts in this thread alone and his avatar claiming 99% hardly seems applicable, unless it refers to the percentage of people who disagree with him. This is a biker forum. Bikers generally have a more independent streak, are more willing to think outside of the box...Rebellious, even. If Mashman's arguments don't gain traction here then it's unlikely that they will anywhere. I am a strong believer in the philosophy: think globally, act locally. The first word in that ideal is the most important: Think. Tents in a public space achieve nothing. Dressing like it's a casting call for a Woodstock movie only makes you look foolish. You want to make a positive change? Practice random acts of kindness. Get to know your neighbors. Make a note of any elderly, disabled and young families who may need a helping hand from time to time. Take a first aid course. Buy locally. Start a vegetable garden. Volunteer. A pro-active approach beats protest every time. And, more on topic, I'll leave you with advice my father gave me: NEVER buy any luxury item on credit.

In the current financial system a bank provides many needs for many people, whoopdeedoo. I don't believe the financial system serves any positive purpose for human beings movings forwards in regards to allowing them to address the issues that plague every country day in and day out...

As for my posts... meh... Does you mean that I'm part of the 1%? As for traction, I'm not looking for anything of the sort... more offering a different perspective and watching the free thinking, independent streak of bikers discuss (snigger) that perspective... tis fackin amusing if nothing else.

What makes you think those dressed for woodstock don't live their lives according to your philosophy?, the kindness, knowing their neighbours etc...? Perhaps the tents thing is something in addition?

[jazfender]

Relevant:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/yoG9PmdGaT8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Mods maybe merge occupy threads?

[Winston001]

I contract to a company that runs at a lose here, because of such it gets rebates on tax and GST.
It sells its products at a low cost to its parent company in Aussie that then sells it for its true cost and makes a profit, but then because it props up the original company it gets that tax breaks in Aussie.



Ok I believe you and such things happen. Nevertheless its tax evasion under the Inland Revenue Act 2006 plus various international tax treaties.

Of course, maybe they genuinely make a loss and move it to the jurisdiction of best tax advantage. That's valid and lawful.

[avgas]

Dunno. Depends on if you want to borrow more $$$ or not, or find investments with higher returns. Nope, but that's the only way it's gonna work.
Yes and No... have a chat with the central bank and have them do their fractional banking thang with their freshly plucked out of thin air money and if the global market doesn't blink, there'll be no sacrifice.
Your kinda missing where I was going.
There is also the "entrepreneurial effect" - note this does not just apply to entrepreneurs....but more people thinking outside the box.

3 companies this year in NZ have done very well for themselves by effectively recycling shit.
Likewise my Singaporean overlords are doing very well by acquiring the NZ firm I work for. Yet no money goes their direction (its reinvested here). Simple reason was when they bought us - they look bigger and better and viola! more people wanted to invest in them or give them more projects....etc

Some globals in NZ run a very thin profit margin. Why? Well they are seen to be:
- Innovative out of NZ
- Green (aka free marketing)
- Global
- Bigger
- Stronger
- More stable

So NZ does pretty well. While they screw Africa or India.

[mashman]

Relevant:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/yoG9PmdGaT8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Mods maybe merge occupy threads?

I laughed, I cried, I laughed much much more... fuckin brilliant and maybe, just maybe, he has a point... excellent find man :not:

[mashman]

Your kinda missing where I was going.
There is also the "entrepreneurial effect" - note this does not just apply to entrepreneurs....but more people thinking outside the box.

3 companies this year in NZ have done very well for themselves by effectively recycling shit.
Likewise my Singaporean overlords are doing very well by acquiring the NZ firm I work for. Yet no money goes their direction (its reinvested here). Simple reason was when they bought us - they look bigger and better and viola! more people wanted to invest in them or give them more projects....etc

Some globals in NZ run a very thin profit margin. Why? Well they are seen to be:
- Innovative out of NZ
- Green (aka free marketing)
- Global
- Bigger
- Stronger
- More stable


I learn something new every day... cheers.



So NZ does pretty well. While they screw Africa or India.

:killingme

[BoristheBiter]

In the current financial system a bank provides many needs for many people, whoopdeedoo. I don't believe the financial system serves any positive purpose for human beings movings forwards in regards to allowing them to address the issues that plague every country day in and day out...



See i think this is where the "hate the big bank" shit falls down. If you don't want to use them don't. if you don't want to borrow money don't. If you don't want a credit line then don't.

It IS that simple.

The problem is now so many people have got used to living in the "buy now, pay later" system that they can't function without it, or they don't know how to use it to their own advantage.

Not the fault of the bank, all they did was give you enough rope.

[Oscar]

See i think this is where the "hate the big bank" shit falls down. If you don't want to use them don't. if you don't want to borrow money don't. If you don't want a credit line then don't.

It IS that simple.

The problem is now so many people have got used to living in the "buy now, pay later" system that they can't function without it, or they don't know how to use it to their own advantage.

Not the fault of the bank, all they did was give you enough rope.

Well said.
Another example of the new society that has no personal responsibility.

[Oscar]

Ok I believe you and such things happen. Nevertheless its tax evasion under the Inland Revenue Act 2006 plus various international tax treaties.

Of course, maybe they genuinely make a loss and move it to the jurisdiction of best tax advantage. That's valid and lawful.

"..move it to the jurisdiction of best tax advantage.."

That is tax evasion under NZ law.

[Ocean1]

"..move it to the jurisdiction of best tax advantage.."

That is tax evasion under NZ law.

I'd hesitate to say the oportunity to participate in such shuffling is the primary reason Aussie multinationals invest in NZ business. But not for very long.

I used to work for a huge UK multinational. Materials for our NZ plant were sourced from all over the planet. One day our NZ operation was realigned to report to Aus, all of a sudden our materials were sourced from Aussie, at prices about twice the Asian equvalent, which reduced our margines to zero. I'm not sure of the finer details of what the various tax advantages were at the time but I had the assurance of the Aussie CFO that that was the reason for the cost structure.

This situation lasted 5 years, with the NZ operation slowly being strangled to allow higher margins across the ditch. When the NZ operation was eventually shut down the Aussie GM even had the stones to blame their 40% reduction in raw materials sales on poor NZ management.

I'm aware of half a dozen other large NZ manufacturers in exactly the same boat now. All report to Sydnee.

[Winston001]

"..move it to the jurisdiction of best tax advantage.."

That is tax evasion under NZ law.

Fair enough I'm no accountant. I'm merely guessing that under CER a genuine loss by a New Zealand factory owned by an Australian company would be allowed by the Australian Tax Office. If the loss occurred in the Netherland Antilles, that would be a different story.

Ocean points to this type of structure too.

No biggie.

[mashman]

See i think this is where the "hate the big bank" shit falls down. If you don't want to use them don't. if you don't want to borrow money don't. If you don't want a credit line then don't.

It IS that simple.

The problem is now so many people have got used to living in the "buy now, pay later" system that they can't function without it, or they don't know how to use it to their own advantage.

Not the fault of the bank, all they did was give you enough rope.


See this is where the don't use it if you don't need it and it won't affect you shit falls down. Pretty much every "problem" that a bank reacts to has an affect on my life. Some banker farts and thinks he's followed through, fuel prices rise and the market goes bananas until he's been to check. Meanwhile fuel prices rising affects the price of just about every essential that I don't get for free... and all because some banker sharted.

It IS that simple... even for those who haven't used credit. Tis felt worse at the bottom of the "pile".

I agree to an extent, but if banks or retailers are foolish enough to offer credit knowing full well that people are going to rack up masses of debt, then it's their own fault when it goes tits, not mine.

That's like saying, it's not the fault of the bar, they just kept serving beer all night even thought they suspected you were gonna drive home.

[Winston001]

See this is where the don't use it if you don't need it and it won't affect you shit falls down. Pretty much every "problem" that a bank reacts to has an affect on my life. Some banker farts and thinks he's followed through, fuel prices rise and the market goes bananas until he's been to check. Meanwhile fuel prices rising affects the price of just about every essential that I don't get for free... and all because some banker sharted.

.

.......yeah.....


No. You lost me there Mash. How could one bank worker (there are millions of them) with a gyppy tummy raise the price of oil? What's his name? Who does he work for?

[mashman]

.......yeah.....


No. You lost me there Mash. How could one bank worker (there are millions of them) with a gyppy tummy raise the price of oil? What's his name? Who does he work for?

Sorry Winston, I could tell you but I'd be breaking a confidence. (was going for a metaphoric twitchy bum analogy)

[jazfender]

NYPD police scanners are saying they have about 33,000 protesters on the ground atm. Blood, arrests, gridlock, yelling etc.

One of the best livestreams for this is Tim Pool - ustream.tv/TheOther99

[Winston001]

What worries me is there are valid issues which the Wall Street protesters are raising. However the issues aren't clearly argued or laid out for the public to understand. In fact its quite likely every protester has a slightly different idea of why they are there.

If the protesters are removed, there is a danger the whole movement will lose its focus and die away. Raging against wealth imbalance and white collar rewards isn't like demonstrating against the Vietnam War or a Springbok Tour. There's no single enemy and no single political party to change things.

[Winston001]

What's it about? Executive salaries are a good example. Of course Sod's Law says I can't find the data but from memory in the days of Henry Ford, senior managers were paid 8x the average factory worker.

Today its possible to find examples where the pay is 300% of the average worker in that business. Thats probably extreme so just ask ourselves, is Paul Reynolds (Telecom) effort worth $5.2 million? That is paid for by every Telecom subscriber and shareholder - which probably includes you if you have any Kiwisaver.

Fair enough, pay the guy well, but $500,000 goes a long way. This is not about envy but about a rational relationship between the guy in the shop and the guy on the top floor.

[mashman]

What worries me is there are valid issues which the Wall Street protesters are raising. However the issues aren't clearly argued or laid out for the public to understand. In fact its quite likely every protester has a slightly different idea of why they are there.

Why does that worry you?

[JimO]

the guy in the shop and the guy on the top floor.

they would actually have to have a job first

[oldrider]

Why does that worry you?

Because it's a hot bed for chaos, they are all standing for a different principle than their peers, they know not what they do, or why!

Lawyers just love clients who are fighting for a principle .... the sky's the limit $$$$$$$$ .... most of them are against exactly that!

It can only grow and the civil disobedience will be limitless and in their minds, "justified" ... just like the anti springbok tour, only miles bigger!

"The meek shall inherit the earth" .... well you are witnessing the beginnings, the meek are on the warpath and the "authorities" are behaving accordingly!

What a fucking joke but as it has been written, so it shall be done! :girlfight:

[Indiana_Jones]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/GEVfwXTqh9s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

:woohoo:

-Indy

[mashman]

Because it's a hot bed for chaos, they are all standing for a different principle than their peers, they know not what they do, or why!

Lawyers just love clients who are fighting for a principle .... the sky's the limit $$$$$$$$ .... most of them are against exactly that!

It can only grow and the civil disobedience will be limitless and in their minds, "justified" ... just like the anti springbok tour, only miles bigger!

"The meek shall inherit the earth" .... well you are witnessing the beginnings, the meek are on the warpath and the "authorities" are behaving accordingly!

What a fucking joke but as it has been written, so it shall be done! :girlfight:

Now you're just gettin me hard...

[Winston001]

Lawyers just love clients who are fighting for a principle .... the sky's the limit $$$$$$$$ .... most of them are against exactly that!



Oh yes John. :2thumbsup

Although clients become strangely quiet when asked for $5k up front to support their principals... Funny that...

[JimO]

Oh yes John. :2thumbsup

Although clients become strangely quiet when asked for $5k up front to support their principals... Funny that...bloody lawyers eh!!!

[Indiana_Jones]

Oh yes John. :2thumbsup

Although clients become strangely quiet when asked for $5k up front to support their principals... Funny that...

lol yep :shutup:

-Indy

[mashman]

from one of the occupy sites

"Our political system should serve all of us — not just the very rich and powerful. Right now Wall Street owns Washington," said participant Beka Economopoulos. "We are the 99% and we are here to reclaim our democracy."

New York led the charge in this energizing day for the emerging movement. In the wake of billionaire Mayor Michael Bloomberg’s predawn raid of Occupy Wall Street at Liberty Square, 1:00am Tuesday morning, thousands of people throughout the five boroughs and the greater region converged to take peaceful action. Following Bloomberg’s action, the slogan “You can’t evict an idea whose time has come” became the new meme of the 99% movement overnight. The mobilization today proved that the movement is on the ascent and is capable of navigating obstacles."

Do police actually have a brain, or iz orders just orders?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WmJmmnMkuEM

[BoristheBiter]

from one of the occupy sites

"Our political system should serve all of us — not just the very rich and powerful. Right now Wall Street owns Washington," said participant Beka Economopoulos. "We are the 99% and we are here to reclaim our democracy."

New York led the charge in this energizing day for the emerging movement. In the wake of billionaire Mayor Michael Bloomberg’s predawn raid of Occupy Wall Street at Liberty Square, 1:00am Tuesday morning, thousands of people throughout the five boroughs and the greater region converged to take peaceful action. Following Bloomberg’s action, the slogan “You can’t evict an idea whose time has come” became the new meme of the 99% movement overnight. The mobilization today proved that the movement is on the ascent and is capable of navigating obstacles."

Do police actually have a brain, or iz orders just orders?

]

For 1 we are not in the US.

2 the system should serve us all not just the ones the cause crime and those that can't be bothered working.

You will never convince me that what the protesters are doing is right, and as for the police, if the protesters weren't there this wouldn't happen and as they know how the police are going to react then they should just put it down to occupational hazards.

99%, yeah right only as 99% couldn't give a shit about them.

[Oscar]

"Our political system should serve all of us — not just the very rich and powerful. Right now Wall Street owns Washington," said participant Beka Economopoulos. "We are the 99% and we are here to reclaim our democracy."



What a complete load of bollox.
If they were really 99% (or any percentage larger than 5% in this country), they'd have political representation.
Instead of messing up town squares all over NZ, why aren't these fuckwits using the democratic process?
Why haven't I heard one political candidate championing their cause?

[Virago]

"We are the 99% and we are here to reclaim our democracy."...

And therein lies the hypocrisy. Who elected them to represent us? The vast majority of the "99%" would prefer that they fuck off and take their mini-dictatorships with them.

Democracy? Sez who...?


...Do police actually have a brain, or iz orders just orders?...

If a policeman tells you to move - you move. If he follows it up with warnings about what will happen if you don't comply, there is little point in whining like little babies when they follow through.

If you go face-to-face with the authorities and expect them to back down, be prepared to get your arse kicked.

[FJRider]

If you go face-to-face with the authorities and expect them to back down, be prepared to get your arse kicked.

Not always the case ... but you must know the LAW ... not just rely on your own (and a few dozen of your friend's/acquaintance's) opinion

As I understand it ... If asked by Police to leave ... it is required by New Zealand law, that you must. To refuse is an offence you can be charged for ... even if the Officer(s) are WRONG (god forbid :facepalm:) to ask you to leave in the first place ... or at least don't a valid lawful reason to ask you to leave ...

[mashman]

For 1 we are not in the US.

2 the system should serve us all not just the ones the cause crime and those that can't be bothered working.

You will never convince me that what the protesters are doing is right, and as for the police, if the protesters weren't there this wouldn't happen and as they know how the police are going to react then they should just put it down to occupational hazards.

99%, yeah right only as 99% couldn't give a shit about them.

I know we're not, didn't say we were.

True.. and you kinda lost me there. The system serves criminals? erm.......

It's not up to me to convince you of anything. :killingme @ the protesters being on their own campus having a peaceful protest being enough of a justification for pepper spraying them because they won't move. That has to be one of the most fucked up statements I've seen anyone utter on this site... and following that logic, if wall street et al hadn't been doing what they have for so many years, there wouldn't be the need for the protesters... so it's still the fault of wall street et al that they're there. An occupational hazard eh... so you'd be happy if any protest was met with similar force, like an ACC protest, or public servant strikes, maybe anti child violence protests etc...?

And what complete and utter fuckin idiots those ignorant 99% are! I suppose they excuse it by denying that these social issues exist and aren't part of a failed system, but are WHOLLY the fault of each individual and just can't be bothered to get passed that thought, or don't have the mental capacity to be able to see any further.



What a complete load of bollox.
If they were really 99% (or any percentage larger than 5% in this country), they'd have political representation.
Instead of messing up town squares all over NZ, why aren't these fuckwits using the democratic process?
Why haven't I heard one political candidate championing their cause?


Sorry, all I read there was, waaaaaaaaaaa mummy they're not playing fair by following the rules... Fuckin hilarious. Tears, I have tears, messing up squares :killingme aaaaaaaaaaaa ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaa... mum, they're messing up the square too.
:killingme ha ha haaaaaaaaa, honestly, do you do this on purpose... A politician stepping up to champion anything other than the political status quo. Cheers Oscar, I needed that.



And therein lies the hypocrisy. Who elected them to represent us? The vast majority of the "99%" would prefer that they fuck off and take their mini-dictatorships with them.

Democracy? Sez who...?

Mini-dictatorships eh, is that how we're describing governing by consensus these days. I thought that was how democracy was supposed to work. You may be correct that a lot of the sheeple can't handle the confrontation, or don't see it as their problem

Well it certainly isn't a democracy any more, other than you get a chance to vote, or where police force is required to move a peaceful protest is it? According to the brains trust on here that's a socialist or communist strategy for forcing people to comply with the rules of society. Oh the irony.



If a policeman tells you to move - you move. If he follows it up with warnings about what will happen if you don't comply, there is little point in whining like little babies when they follow through.

If you go face-to-face with the authorities and expect them to back down, be prepared to get your arse kicked.

So you're with Boris then? No protest is allowed to take place where a police person tells you to move along. They are above the law and can abuse their power without question? ha ha ha haaaaaaaa... hope that fucker comes to haunt you some day. Currently I have a respect for the police, I'd hate for that to change because they became puppets and followed unreasonable orders.

That door swings both ways. Go against a peaceful mob that decides to defend itself against an unreasonable force, be prepared to get your arse kicked.

[Virago]

...Mini-dictatorships eh, is that how we're describing governing by consensus these days. I thought that was how democracy was supposed to work. You may be correct that a lot of the sheeple can't handle the confrontation, or don't see it as their problem...

Yes.

By all means, fight for what you believe in. But DON'T claim to represent the rest of us.

Those deranged crackpots who claim to represent the 99% will invariably follow up their self-proclamation with derogatory and dismissive remarks about those who object to such "representation".


...And what complete and utter fuckin idiots those ignorant 99% are! I suppose they excuse it by denying that these social issues exist and aren't part of a failed system, but are WHOLLY the fault of each individual and just can't be bothered to get passed that thought, or don't have the mental capacity to be able to see any further...


...sheeple...

I rest my case.

[mashman]

Yes.

By all means, fight for what you believe in. But DON'T claim to represent the rest of us.

Those deranged crackpots who claim to represent the 99% will invariably follow up their self-proclamation with derogatory and dismissive remarks about those who object to such "representation".

I rest my case.

I haven't heard them say that... and as you've made plainly clear that you are not part of the 99%, I fail to see how you see that they are claiming to represent you.

Again with the claims of representation... let it go man :msn-wink:... Where the no wanna be 99% will continue to do what they do best, bury their heads in the sand and popup every now and then and give the "defenceless" a kickin because they're a drain on society (oh the irony)...

and they'll drag out the crackpot label to have a go at the crackpots for daring to offer a different perspective, that they deny because it isn't the norm, and continually claim that the crackpots are trying to represent them...

[Virago]

I haven't heard them say that... and as you've made plainly clear that you are not part of the 99%, I fail to see how you see that they are claiming to represent you....

The old "If you're not with us, you're against us" ploy, eh...? :msn-wink:

Carry on...

[mashman]

The old "If you're not with us, you're against us" ploy, eh...? :msn-wink:

Carry on...

:rofl:, nope, but it doesn't help.

[misterO]

can't be bothered to get passed that thought, or don't have the mental capacity to be able to see any further.

I can't get passed (sic) the thought that the Occupy Dunedin group needs a better spokesperson.

Insert sub-moronic smiling emoticon ---> here <---

[mashman]

I can't get passed (sic) the thought that the Occupy Dunedin group needs a better spokesperson.

Insert sub-moronic smiling emoticon ---> http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/customprofilepics/profilepic33709_2.gif<---

:rofl: you have a point, I just can't figure out what it is... but that not being able to get passed the thought sounded alarmingly familiar.

[FJRider]

I haven't heard them say that... and as you've made plainly clear that you are not part of the 99%, I fail to see how you see that they are claiming to represent you.

Perhaps ... because he believes he's not part of the 1% ...


Again with the claims of representation... let it go man :msn-wink:... Where the no wanna be 99% will continue to do what they do best, bury their heads in the sand and popup every now and then and give the "defenceless" a kickin because they're a drain on society (oh the irony)...

I find it funny how the "defenceless" people that are "a drain on society" ... want a ... greater ??? ... share of the wealth of the society ... they either not wish to take part in, or contribute to in any way of value ... to that society. Then claim they HAVE the support of that society ...


and they'll drag out the crackpot label to have a go at the crackpots for daring to offer a different perspective, that they deny because it isn't the norm, and continually claim that the crackpots are trying to represent them...

The funny thing is ... the perspective changes, the higher you get ... have you not figured THAT out ... ??? Climb a few more steps up the ladder yourself and admire the view ...

[mashman]

Why haven't I heard one political candidate championing their cause?


http://video.msnbc.msn.com/up-with-chris-hayes/45366471#45366471

[mashman]

Perhaps ... because he believes he's not part of the 1% ...

I find it funny how the "defenceless" people that are "a drain on society" ... want a ... greater ??? ... share of the wealth of the society ... they either not wish to take part in, or contribute to in any way of value ... to that society. Then claim they HAVE the support of that society ...

The funny thing is ... the perspective changes, the higher you get ... have you not figured THAT out ... ??? Climb a few more steps up the ladder yourself and admire the view ...

:rofl: I get the maths

Is that what they want? I'm not so sure, not so sure at all. There are still defenceless people that want to work, or do work unbelievable hours in multiple jobs just to make ends meet too, and yet they get lumped into the same category as those who want to put absolutely no effort in (both ends of the scale) because they "take" assistance from the govt. Everyone should have the support of society and not be "marginalised" because of the perceived value they return. Otherwise those workin 60 hours per week in multiple jobs would be drastically better off... yet they aren't. I find that hard to swallow I'm afraid. And yes, it surprises me that more don't share my surprise.

I already have "A" penthouse view and am deriving huge pleasure from it.

[scumdog]

Hey, I went past the Octagon in Dunners yesterday and saw a heap of people camped there, are they Christchurch refugees or something?:confused:

Poor buggers looked abit damp....

[FJRider]

Hey, I went past the Octagon in Dunners yesterday and saw a heap of people camped there, are they Christchurch refugees or something?:confused:

Poor buggers looked abit damp....

Oh dear ... how sad ... never mind ...

Perhaps they should go occupy Miami ... <_<

[BoristheBiter]

I know we're not, didn't say we were.

True.. and you kinda lost me there. The system serves criminals? erm.......

It's not up to me to convince you of anything. :killingme @ the protesters being on their own campus having a peaceful protest being enough of a justification for pepper spraying them because they won't move. That has to be one of the most fucked up statements I've seen anyone utter on this site... and following that logic, if wall street et al hadn't been doing what they have for so many years, there wouldn't be the need for the protesters... so it's still the fault of wall street et al that they're there. An occupational hazard eh... so you'd be happy if any protest was met with similar force, like an ACC protest, or public servant strikes, maybe anti child violence protests etc...?

And what complete and utter fuckin idiots those ignorant 99% are! I suppose they excuse it by denying that these social issues exist and aren't part of a failed system, but are WHOLLY the fault of each individual and just can't be bothered to get passed that thought, or don't have the mental capacity to be able to see any further.



You are right it is not up to you to convince me but seeing as the protesters can't I was thinking that some of there believers might be able to shed some light on it for the rest of us but I guess that was too much to hope for.

Why is a fucked up statement, its true. They were told to move or get sprayed, they didn't move, they got sprayed. cause and effect.

When we went to Wellington to protest the ACC levies we came, gave our message and went home. If we had camped on Parliament we would have been met withe the same response.

I am all for protest, whether i believe in it or not, but if you want to be confrontational expect the consequences.

Have you thought if 99% don't think the systems fucked maybe you're just wrong and your types are wholly at fault??
Because from where I'm sitting it looks like you are.

[Oscar]

Sorry, all I read there was, waaaaaaaaaaa mummy they're not playing fair by following the rules... Fuckin hilarious. Tears, I have tears, messing up squares :killingme aaaaaaaaaaaa ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaa... mum, they're messing up the square too.
:killingme ha ha haaaaaaaaa, honestly, do you do this on purpose... A politician stepping up to champion anything other than the political status quo. Cheers Oscar, I needed that.



.

That's pretty much the response I figured I'd get.
Childish nonsense from an idiot who appears to be typical of the "occupy wherever" group (apart from apparently either not owning a tent or being to lazy to occupy anything other than his keyboard).

[Oscar]

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/up-with-chris-hayes/45366471#45366471

Error 404 supports your cause?:facepalm:

You can stop trying - I came to the conclusion you were an idiot quite some time ago.

[mashman]

You are right it is not up to you to convince me but seeing as the protesters can't I was thinking that some of there believers might be able to shed some light on it for the rest of us but I guess that was too much to hope for.

Why is a fucked up statement, its true. They were told to move or get sprayed, they didn't move, they got sprayed. cause and effect.

When we went to Wellington to protest the ACC levies we came, gave our message and went home. If we had camped on Parliament we would have been met withe the same response.

I am all for protest, whether i believe in it or not, but if you want to be confrontational expect the consequences.

Have you thought if 99% don't think the systems fucked maybe you're just wrong and your types are wholly at fault??
Because from where I'm sitting it looks like you are.

Have you been and spoken with the protesters?

They weren't doing anything illegal... but by all means go ahead and mace them because they won't do what a policeman says... that's fucked up imo. Funny, I didn't see the cops when the students followed up the protest by silently lining the path to the principles car, sitting cross legged in the same way as the sprayed folk. Nothing like a little consistency.

There's a fundamental difference? If we had camped on parliaments grounds we may have had a completely different outcome.

:rofl: @ confrontational. A peaceful protest is just that, nothing confrontational about it other than pissing someone off.

Yes I have considered it at quite some length. It's a life changer :yes:. If I can attribute a single societal issue to the system, then the system is at fault. As you know yourself, there are many issues and NONE of them are improving. My conclusion is that the system is at fault... after all we change the people in charge and they change their (and by default society's) tactics (tui?) and yet nothing changes. My vote goes against the system.

[mashman]

That's pretty much the response I figured I'd get.
Childish nonsense from an idiot who appears to be typical of the "occupy wherever" group (apart from apparently either not owning a tent or being to lazy to occupy anything other than his keyboard).

I'm surprised you bothered, again.
How do you know that the "occupy whatever" groups are idiots? You're correct on my count, but tarring the occupying folk with my brush says more about you than it does about them... I've still got buckets of sand.



Error 404 supports your cause?

You can stop trying - I came to the conclusion you were an idiot quite some time ago.

The link works for me... here's some accompanying text (http://upwithchrishayes.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/11/19/8896362-exclusive-lobbying-firms-memo-spells-out-plan-to-undermine-occupy-wall-street-video)

I'm not trying anything, just passing along some information and commenting in my own idiotic way :)

[BoristheBiter]

Have you been and spoken with the protesters?

They weren't doing anything illegal... but by all means go ahead and mace them because they won't do what a policeman says... that's fucked up imo. Funny, I didn't see the cops when the students followed up the protest by silently lining the path to the principles car, sitting cross legged in the same way as the sprayed folk. Nothing like a little consistency.

There's a fundamental difference? If we had camped on parliaments grounds we may have had a completely different outcome.

:rofl: @ confrontational. A peaceful protest is just that, nothing confrontational about it other than pissing someone off.

Yes I have considered it at quite some length. It's a life changer :yes:. If I can attribute a single societal issue to the system, then the system is at fault. As you know yourself, there are many issues and NONE of them are improving. My conclusion is that the system is at fault... after all we change the people in charge and they change their (and by default society's) tactics (tui?) and yet nothing changes. My vote goes against the system.

What would you do if me and some mates came and sat down on your driveway?
Set up our tents and just decided to stay there?
We would sit on the end of the drive as to be on council land, and every time you came passed we would just shout the first thing that came into our heads.

My guessing is you would get sick of it very quickly and would want the police to remove us as soon as possible.

[mashman]

What would you do if me and some mates came and sat down on your driveway?
Set up our tents and just decided to stay there?
We would sit on the end of the drive as to be on council land, and every time you came passed we would just shout the first thing that came into our heads.

My guessing is you would get sick of it very quickly and would want the police to remove us as soon as possible.

ha ha haaaaaa, I'd probably offer you a beer and an apology for running your tent over at some point in the future. The funny thing is, there's an island at the bottom of my drive, so you'll likely get run over in the middle of the night by the hoons, or perhaps the lorries that come barrelling down the road during the day.

I doubt the wife would be too chuffed though, and that'd be the thing that would have me reaching for the phone... unless you have a good reason to be there of course, then I might talk the wife around and offer you the use of my bins and toilet.

[BoristheBiter]

ha ha haaaaaa, I'd probably offer you a beer and an apology for running your tent over at some point in the future. The funny thing is, there's an island at the bottom of my drive, so you'll likely get run over in the middle of the night by the hoons, or perhaps the lorries that come barrelling down the road during the day.

I doubt the wife would be too chuffed though, and that'd be the thing that would have me reaching for the phone... unless you have a good reason to be there of course, then I might talk the wife around and offer you the use of my bins and toilet.

And that there is the clincher, and regardless of answer after a while it just becomes tiresome the the reason is forgotten.

From most of the reports around the world this is know the case, so the police are moving them on and different country's have different responses.

[mashman]

And that there is the clincher, and regardless of answer after a while it just becomes tiresome the the reason is forgotten.

From most of the reports around the world this is know the case, so the police are moving them on and different country's have different responses.

Those who didn't care in the first place might forget.

Oh, so the world have been asked have they? I think not. Carry on believing the hype. Until you have the debate and it's 100% public and accessible to EVERYONE on the planet, Africa/China/India included, then the reports are wrong as ALL of the votes aren't in. The 1% know this and you and yours will be in a minority.

[BoristheBiter]

Those who didn't care in the first place might forget.

Oh, so the world have been asked have they? I think not. Carry on believing the hype. Until you have the debate and it's 100% public and accessible to EVERYONE on the planet, Africa/China/India included, then the reports are wrong as ALL of the votes aren't in. The 1% know this and you and yours will be in a minority.

What rock have had your head stuck under? No one cared in the first place or it would have been bigger than it is.
If me and mine are the minority then why has it not gone the way of places like Libya or Egypt? know those are the words and feelings of the majority. Those are the protests that cause change not some whining hippy's that want some free money camped in a park.

You are deluded if you think you and yours are a majority.

[mashman]

What rock have had your head stuck under? No one cared in the first place or it would have been bigger than it is.
If me and mine are the minority then why has it not gone the way of places like Libya or Egypt? know those are the words and feelings of the majority. Those are the protests that cause change not some whining hippy's that want some free money camped in a park.

You are deluded if you think you and yours are a majority

Noone? Not everyone can drop their lives and go protest camping. If it weren't for my family I'd be there and I would imagine there are quite a few others in a similar position. I highly doubt that the "idea" is limited to those few thousand that are actually there. I could be very wrong, but if people were given a real choice between the way it is and a more equitable society (note not equal) and they actually gave it more than a passing thought, I reckon me and mine would be the majority.

I never said you are the minority, I said will be... given that everyone on the planet would get to vote for a potentially, probably, better way of life (at least in the immediate future). :rofl:... Why did Libya and Egypt "revolt"? I'm guessing for very similar reasons that the Occupy crowds are gathering. Did the majority of Egyptians or Libyans take to the streets, let alone take up arms to fight? No they didn't. Does that mean there was a silent majority? I'm going for yes, but please feel free to deny that that was the case and call me deluded.

[Virago]

Hey, I went past the Octagon in Dunners yesterday and saw a heap of people camped there, are they Christchurch refugees or something?:confused:

Poor buggers looked abit damp....


Oh dear ... how sad ... never mind ...

Perhaps they should go occupy Miami ... <_<

There is a face-saving solution:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunedin,_Florida

[mashman]

There is a face-saving solution:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunedin,_Florida

Would you like help packing your bags?

[BoristheBiter]

Noone? Not everyone can drop their lives and go protest camping. If it weren't for my family I'd be there and I would imagine there are quite a few others in a similar position. I highly doubt that the "idea" is limited to those few thousand that are actually there. I could be very wrong, but if people were given a real choice between the way it is and a more equitable society (note not equal) and they actually gave it more than a passing thought, I reckon me and mine would be the majority.

I never said you are the minority, I said will be... given that everyone on the planet would get to vote for a potentially, probably, better way of life (at least in the immediate future). :rofl:... Why did Libya and Egypt "revolt"? I'm guessing for very similar reasons that the Occupy crowds are gathering. Did the majority of Egyptians or Libyans take to the streets, let alone take up arms to fight? No they didn't. Does that mean there was a silent majority? I'm going for yes, but please feel free to deny that that was the case and call me deluded.

So let me see if i get this right;
1) you and the unwashed masses want a redistribution of wealth for no other reason than you think you deserve it.
2) you think the majority of people are behind this.
3) this will make the world a better place.

[mashman]

So let me see if i get this right;
1) you and the unwashed masses want a redistribution of wealth for no other reason than you think you deserve it.
2) you think the majority of people are behind this.
3) this will make the world a better place.

1) Nope.
2) Would be. Yup.
3) Definately

[BoristheBiter]

1) Nope.
2) Would be. Yup.
3) Definately

So what do you think they want?

[mashman]

So what do you think they want?

Now that would be telling :msn-wink:... tricky one as they haven't made any demands and their position isn't clear :shifty:... but the end game from my perspective, I would expect that they want common sense to prevail... which would require parties on all sides to sit down and find real world workable solutions to the issues that the majority have to face. Throwing money at problems doesn't seem to be working very well.

[BoristheBiter]

Now that would be telling :msn-wink:... tricky one as they haven't made any demands and their position isn't clear :shifty:... but the end game from my perspective, I would expect that they want common sense to prevail... which would require parties on all sides to sit down and find real world workable solutions to the issues that the majority have to face. Throwing money at problems doesn't seem to be working very well.

So in other words they don't have a fucking clue on either whats wrong, how to fix it or even what they think is best.

and you try and stand up for this :rofl:

[mashman]

So in other words they don't have a fucking clue on either whats wrong, how to fix it or even what they think is best.

and you try and stand up for this :rofl:

Of course they do, on all counts. And that's why I stand up for it. It may not be exactly what I would prefer, money and value system gone etc..., but the basic principle of people first is in line with one of my high priority requirements for society.

[BoristheBiter]

Of course they do, on all counts. And that's why I stand up for it. It may not be exactly what I would prefer, money and value system gone etc..., but the basic principle of people first is in line with one of my high priority requirements for society.

Stand up for what?? You haven't said anything about what you stand for.

What do you want back to the dark ages? Remember the golden rule, them with the gold makes the rules.

[BoristheBiter]

This sums it up

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/384464_214045791998411_100001789744229_461044_4273 62695_n.jpg

[mashman]

Stand up for what?? You haven't said anything about what you stand for.

What do you want back to the dark ages? Remember the golden rule, them with the gold makes the rules.

Of course I have. I want equity via some form of resource based economy (doing things because they need to be done, not because there's a profit in it), I want rid of the financial system and the fucked up value system it perpetuates (to give us equity), and I want the hot 'n' spicy coating back at KFC (or the recipe). I could probably add to the list, but those 3 things will do for starters.

As for going back to the dark ages. Id that's what'll happen? do you really believe that troll? Thems with the gold still make the rules!

[mashman]

This sums it up

I see yet another "I'm alright Jack" useless cunt... so yeah you're right, it does sum it up :bleh:

[scumdog]

This sums it up



Mwahahaha!

Good shit, good shit, a man after my own heart!!





Let the losers wallow in their misery I say, let them eat cake too!

[FJRider]

Let the losers wallow in their misery I say, let them eat cake too!

Wallow in their misery yes ... but who pays for the bloody cake ... :innocent:

[JimO]

Wallow in their misery yes ... but who pays for the bloody cake ... :innocent:

same people who are paying for their smokes n woodstock now.....the taxpayer

[BoristheBiter]

Of course I have. I want equity via some form of resource based economy (doing things because they need to be done, not because there's a profit in it), I want rid of the financial system and the fucked up value system it perpetuates (to give us equity), and I want the hot 'n' spicy coating back at KFC (or the recipe). I could probably add to the list, but those 3 things will do for starters.

As for going back to the dark ages. Id that's what'll happen? do you really believe that troll? Thems with the gold still make the rules!

And you think under your fancy economy based society it wouldn't be as fucked up as it is now? You really don't understand the human race do you?

Troll? Go and read up on how the dark ages were run and you might want to change your thoughts on your economy based society.
No place for your bludgers to go as if they don't work they don't get feed, same as the sick & disabled. If there isn't any money how can the government keep the infrastructure going? who' going to fix the road, repair your phone? I can just see it now, 41" LCD screen 5 cows or 10 pigs or 20kgs of carrots:weird:

How will you pay your power bill?

Your ideas are about as good idea as "barter card", good for ideals, useless in the real world.
Everything has it's price and money is the common ground to what is deemed "it's price". If you don't want to pay that price you go and find it somewhere else. Regardless of whether you use coins, chickens or bottle caps there will always be someone the has more than everyone else, someone the chargers more than everyone else and someone that wants to give it all away.

And you can fuck off with that hot'n'spicy, I want the original popcorn chicken back.

[mashman]

And you think under your fancy economy based society it wouldn't be as fucked up as it is now? You really don't understand the human race do you?

Troll? Go and read up on how the dark ages were run and you might want to change your thoughts on your economy based society.
No place for your bludgers to go as if they don't work they don't get feed, same as the sick & disabled. If there isn't any money how can the government keep the infrastructure going? who' going to fix the road, repair your phone? I can just see it now, 41" LCD screen 5 cows or 10 pigs or 20kgs of carrots

How will you pay your power bill?

Your ideas are about as good idea as "barter card", good for ideals, useless in the real world.
Everything has it's price and money is the common ground to what is deemed "it's price". If you don't want to pay that price you go and find it somewhere else. Regardless of whether you use coins, chickens or bottle caps there will always be someone the has more than everyone else, someone the chargers more than everyone else and someone that wants to give it all away.

And you can fuck off with that hot'n'spicy, I want the original popcorn chicken back.

Of course it wouldn't be as fucked up... I'm not claiming, not wholly, to understand the human race, but I certainly ain't gonna write off any individual given that we each react a different way under a system that measures their societal "contribution" financially and forces them to need money to live. Under those conditions most human beings will do anything, and constantly do. But I also understand that given a completely different set of circumstances, such as an economy that doesn't judge effort by financially penalising someone because of their "career" choice, under those circumstances I'm pretty damn sure you'd see a completely different side to the exact same person that's currently a compulsive thief, politicians included, heh. Thieving isn't a genetic condition ya know! It's very much situational and 99% (snigger) of the motivation is to acquire money :facepalm:. That in itself is the greatest fuck up of mankind. So yes, it wouldn't be anywhere near as fucked up.

If it's not a troll, then it's a serious lack of imagination. Technology and technological advancement are here to stay and are very useful indeed, unless of course we lose the ability to generate electricity. Do you believe that we wouldn't have had the advancements we have had it not been for war? Anyway, why would not having money send us back to the dark ages? Why would bludgers not get fed if they can just walk into a supermarket a pick food up for free? too stoned to move perhaps :shifty:. Why would we stop caring for the sick and elderly? There are people who currently look after the sick and elderly and they're some of the lowest paid people around... which would suggest that they do it because they care. Why would infrastrcture not be maintained or "stuff" not be fixed when people have already chosen to do these jobs? I'd also say that in a resource based economy, or something similar without money, people would have more free time as the load would be shared and we wouldn't waste time on building useless crap coz it might turn a profit. Let's take Transmission Gully as an example of a useless waste of money , manpower and resource. Currently when I ride to work the traffic often backs up to Newlands, a good few K's out of town. what's the point in rushing more people to the same bottleneck? You can only get X amount of vehicles into the city at any given point in time. Anyone who thinks otherwise is ignoring that basic fact and really hasn't thought the idea through. Same can be said for many other projects that we waste cash on.

You wouldn't need to pay a power bill if power generation was free.

In a free economy there would be no need for trade. I'm not saying that Bob won't want to swap something with Frank, but where we're talking about something for everyone, I don't see the need for trade if "stuff" is free. If it makes sense to make something, then make it, "cost" wouldn't matter, especially if all resources are local and they would be used to do exactly the same thing under the current system.

I'm sure there would be people that would "drop out", but I'd venture that that would be generational and that the generation comign through in the "free" society, would have a stronger work ethic. We'd also have the right person in the right job, hence I don't fully hold equality as a reason to do it, because we aren't all equal. That shouldn't stop us from giving everyone the opportunity to explore themselves as far as they feel comfortable with. If everyone does what needs to be done, it'll work, and it'll work to the advantage of all of us. I dare say locksmiths would go out of business. I highly doubt that the population would shit all over the idea if someone that wasn't an idiot took the idea and converted it into a sensible proposal, cost v benefit so to speak.

Byproducts: no poverty, free education (people will still want to teach), free healthcare (people will still want to be doctors/nurses/GP's etc...), by far less crime (a high percentage of crime is financially motivated and/or related), more free time (once the logistics were worked out), less pressure on the family unit, no need to get pregnant to "earn" more money, and likely many many many more things that I can't think of or be bothered going into. Just take your top 10 issues and apply the above thinking to it and watch the issues all but disappear. I don't see these things as unachievable by any stretch of the imagination (ya need one though :shifty:), let alone being negative and sending us back to the dark ages. Anyone can figure it out for themselves, if they choose to do so. If they choose to ignore the obvious, well nothing's really changed and we'll keep on going until we implode/explode or are conquered or enslaved (we're already conquered and enslaved in my eyes, so it's just waiting for the the inevitable civil problem).

I just knew you were a chicken popcornanite. Can't handle the heat eh, ya wee fockin poof!

[BoristheBiter]

O..............just waiting for the the inevitable civil problem).

I just knew you were a chicken popcornanite. Can't handle the heat eh, ya wee fockin poof!

You really are a dreamer.

Actually i quite like your idea, everything is free, so no one does anything, and nothing gets done, so nothing is available, so there is nothing to have, so nothing to aspire to, so we all become nothing.
All jobs are now the same so we have a lot of street sweepers as that is the easiest job to do and we have no doctors or nurses or their numbers are so low they are working 20 hours a day. Really how long do you think that will last


You must just have a nicer picture of the human race than I do, I guess that comes with looking at the shit side all the time.

And I do like the not'n'spicy thank you very much I just prefer PCC

[Big Dave]

Actually i quite like your idea, everything is free, so no one does anything, and nothing gets done, so nothing is available, so there is nothing to have, so nothing to aspire to, so we all become nothing.


I'll have Buddhism for 10.

[mashman]

You really are a dreamer.

Actually i quite like your idea, everything is free, so no one does anything, and nothing gets done, so nothing is available, so there is nothing to have, so nothing to aspire to, so we all become nothing.
All jobs are now the same so we have a lot of street sweepers as that is the easiest job to do and we have no doctors or nurses or their numbers are so low they are working 20 hours a day. Really how long do you think that will last


You must just have a nicer picture of the human race than I do, I guess that comes with looking at the shit side all the time.

And I do like the not'n'spicy thank you very much I just prefer PCC

:laugh: maybe... but the idea is entirely possible...

The funny thing is, we'd be doing pretty much exactly the same things as we do today, but for a slightly different reason and no money... so things would be free, people would do things (if we don't, then it won't work), everything is available (terms and conditions apply i.e. you're not just wasting the resource), we'd aspire to be the best we could (people will still have hobbies :shit:, Einstein wasn't a scientist by trade), but to a certain degree you're right, we'd become nothing, and everything. I'm not talking love and peace man, more offering a logical alternative in regards to addressing our consistent issues, instead of relying on the tried and failed current financial solutions on offer.

We're all going to take the path of least resistance? With your outlook on life, I'm surprised we're still not in the dark ages. Ever hear a kid say they wanna be a doctor/policeman/astronaut etc... when they grow up? That ain't for financial reasons. Perhaps they don't know yet know the joys of street sweeping, hmmm :shifty:...

Maybe that's true, but probably not in its current guise though, as I'd like to see the death penalty for certain crimes, and would encourage its return for "my" society... but that doesn't mean that the majority of the human race couldn't be "more" than they already are given a equitable environment... none of which I would consider as me dreaming.

Gawd, that like saying I own a honda and I'm not gay... feckin chicken popcorn lovers...

[jazfender]

This sums it up

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/384464_214045791998411_100001789744229_461044_4273 62695_n.jpg

All good if you're down with killing people for a living.

[JimO]

All good if you're down with killing people for a living.

perhaps he could go to work on the occupy leeches

[BoristheBiter]

All good if you're down with killing people for a living.

Better than bludging.

[jazfender]

Better than bludging.

Maybe on the KB moral compass.

[scumdog]

What has happened to some of these people as per last couple of posts, i.e. the bludging comment?

No 'fire in the belly' no ambition with some - are they just on this planet to make the rest of us look/feel good?

It seems they are happy to wallow in their filth, suck on the tit of the tax-payer and living a "Groundhog Day" existence. (It sure as hell ain't 'living')

Not for this guy, I've always wanted things, travel etc and prepared to work my arse off to do so.

[Big Dave]

Probably a re-post - for Scummy. The other extreme.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/OAOrT0OcHh0?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>


Personally I think there is some validity in their protests. That banks can make Billions of Dollars profit, but that young families can't afford a house/mortgage is just one of them - on a local scale. But I also don't think that sitting in the town square will do a jot about it besides sell Murdoch more newspapers and give Bill here You Tube hits.

Mashy/Jazz are almost on the right track - ask the people, but the only way to do that is at the Polls, and that system is messed up too.

IMO all a schmuck like me can really do is HTFU and work harder/longer.

[mashman]

Personally I think there is some validity in their protests. That banks can make Billions of Dollars profit, but that young families can't afford a house/mortgage is just one of them - on a local scale. But I also don't think that sitting in the town square will do a jot about it besides sell Murdoch more newspapers and give Bill here You Tube hits.

Mashy/Jazz are almost on the right track - ask the people, but the only way to do that is at the Polls, and that system is messed up too.

IMO all a schmuck like me can really do is HTFU and work harder/longer.

What's the alternative? For me there's only 1 and as you mention, there are other people to consider and that it is pointless to storm the castle without a majority and I highly doubt that TPTB will give OWS the platform it would need to move the population to a point where they are educated on the issues and then are in a position to vote for a change is lifestyle. The only counter argument to that is that they should get elected. Whilst not a useless idea, I doubt very much that they'd get/be allowed the platform they need to educate the country.

Hey ho, will drudge on making as much money as I can to produce as much tax as I can so that people at the low end are in with a wiff of a shout at "making it".

[BoristheBiter]

What's the alternative? For me there's only 1 and as you mention, there are other people to consider and that it is pointless to storm the castle without a majority and I highly doubt that TPTB will give OWS the platform it would need to move the population to a point where they are educated on the issues and then are in a position to vote for a change is lifestyle. The only counter argument to that is that they should get elected. Whilst not a useless idea, I doubt very much that they'd get/be allowed the platform they need to educate the country.

Hey ho, will drudge on making as much money as I can to produce as much tax as I can so that people at the low end are in with a wiff of a shout at "making it".

I guess we will see tomorrow in regards whether or not they speak for the masses.
My guess is they don't.

[mashman]

I guess we will see tomorrow in regards whether or not they speak for the masses.
My guess is they don't.

No we won't. I'd be betting beer on the majority backing something entirely different... but it'll never happen because no politician would dare test those waters. My betting is that a large portion of those in education would agree, most of the "lower" class would agree and about half n half of the "middle" class would agree, leaving the 1% with less of a majority than they think. But you will need to educate these people giving them an alternative, if anyone has one that is... ooo ooo pick me pick me :rofl:.

[Oscar]

No we won't. I'd be betting beer on the majority backing something entirely different... but it'll never happen because no politician would dare test those waters. My betting is that a large portion of those in education would agree, most of the "lower" class would agree and about half n half of the "middle" class would agree, leaving the 1% with less of a majority than they think. But you will need to educate these people giving them an alternative, if anyone has one that is... ooo ooo pick me pick me :rofl:.

‎ If that many people supported whatever the fuck it is you are completely failing to ‎communicate here, politicians would be all over it.‎
Your fundamental failure is the assumption that politicians drive issues. They don't - ‎they follow. They're constantly and desperately searching for some issue that would garner votes. If you need proof, listen to Winston Peters - he's all over populist issues.‎

[mashman]

‎ If that many people supported whatever the fuck it is you are completely failing to ‎communicate here, politicians would be all over it.‎
Your fundamental failure is the assumption that politicians drive issues. They don't - ‎they follow. They're constantly and desperately searching for some issue that would garner votes. If you need proof, listen to Winston Peters - he's all over populist issues.‎

:rofl:... no they wouldn't... because they're not being allowed to.

Thanks for telling me what I'm assuming. Can you explain to me what driving an issue means? Do politicians drive populist issues then?

[Oscar]

:rofl:... no they wouldn't... because they're not being allowed to.



They're not being allowed to?
Why not?
Who's stopping them?

[mashman]

They're not being allowed to?
Why not?
Who's stopping them?

You mean you haven't heard. Oh well, can't say I'm surprised

[Oscar]

You mean you haven't heard. Oh well, can't say I'm surprised

If your posts here are representative, the only thing stopping them is a complete lack of cogent thought on their behalf.

To be fair though, your believe that the message is somehow being censored is a brilliant excuse for the fact that the message is being brought to us by half-wits and feral sub-humanoids...

[mashman]

If your posts here are representative, the only thing stopping them is a complete lack of cogent thought on their behalf.

To be fair though, your believe that the message is somehow being censored is a brilliant excuse for the fact that the message is being brought to us by half-wits and feral sub-humanoids...

They're not. I have explained this time and time again. Strange that you choose to ignore that. Then again, it is to be expected given your posts in that you constantly ignore any questions asked for either clarification or information purposes... Is there any reason, any reason at all, that I should give you the information and answers that you seek without be as cryptic as I feel at the time and laughing my ass of at your responses? Sorry for the question, I know how you dislike them... I am more than aware of your constant goal post shifting, though again that is not a surprise and that too makes me smile. You sure you're not JK? bagga another question...

Did I say the message was being censored?

[Oscar]

They're not. I have explained this time and time again. Strange that you choose to ignore that. Then again, it is to be expected given your posts in that you constantly ignore any questions asked for either clarification or information purposes... Is there any reason, any reason at all, that I should give you the information and answers that you seek without be as cryptic as I feel at the time and laughing my ass of at your responses? Sorry for the question, I know how you dislike them... I am more than aware of your constant goal post shifting, though again that is not a surprise and that too makes me smile. You sure you're not JK? bagga another question...

Did I say the message was being censored?

Repeating the same gibberish is not explaining anything.
The fact that you are laughing your ass off only goes to confirm your stupidity and/or ridiculously misplaced arrogance.

Notwithstanding that, if the message is being censored, how come we are discussing it here?
As I've mentioned previously, total indifference is not the same as apathy.

[mashman]

Repeating the same gibberish is not explaining anything.
The fact that you are laughing your ass off only goes to confirm your stupidity and/or ridiculously misplaced arrogance.

Notwithstanding that, if the message is being censored, how come we are discussing it here?
As I've mentioned previously, total indifference is not the same as apathy.

Now you have me lost. Which obviously isn't hard. Not sure which gibberish you're talking about?
There's no other theory that could explain my disposition?

What message?
Did I say anything to the contrary?

[Winston001]

Is there any reason, any reason at all, that I should give you the information and answers that you seek without be as cryptic as I feel at the time and laughing my ass of at your responses?


Good on you Mash for having ideas, asking questions, and thinking about stuff.


The above quote does underline a problem though. If other people think you aren't able to explain your ideas, then you'll be ignored. If others get the impression that you aren't sincere, then you'll be ignored. If ideas are important to you then the respect of others is crucial for any useful discussion.

Just my 2cents. :D

[mashman]

Good on you Mash for having ideas, asking questions, and thinking about stuff.


The above quote does underline a problem though. If other people think you aren't able to explain your ideas, then you'll be ignored. If others get the impression that you aren't sincere, then you'll be ignored. If ideas are important to you then the respect of others is crucial for any useful discussion.

Just my 2cents.

Thanks for pointing that out... may I highlight the preceeding sentence to the one you quoted...



Then again, it is to be expected given your posts in that you constantly ignore any questions asked for either clarification or information purposes.

Whilst I don't mind pissing in the wind, I see no reason that I shouldn't amuse myself whilst doing it... especially if I feel I have reason to. Perhaps I went a might tad troll, and started answering questions with questions and offering cryptic statements that meant absolutely nothing. I still never received an answer to the question you quoted either.

As for useful discussion... where 1 side offers no answers or information when further clarification is being sought, and is met with yet more questions, I don't call that discussion.

[oldrider]

The protesters (occupy groups for 99%) are against the 1% ... the fincial controllers of the world! (Give me control of the finances of the world, I care not who makes the laws! Rothchild.)

OK, so how many of them in NZ voted against the 1% in the election yesterday? :sick:

There was only one party advocating against the 1% ... "the rest were in support"! :yes:

OK, what were the poll results for Democrats for Social Credit? :facepalm:

The protest by the 99% in this country has just been proved to be nothing less than stage managed bullshit! :mellow:

[mashman]

The protest by the 99% in this country has just been proved to be nothing less than stage managed bullshit! :mellow:

I believe and hope you are wrong. 99% (snigger) of the people on KB haven't a clue what the other 99% are about... mainly because they haven't tried to find out i.e. go there and ask them/discuss with them why they are there. Until everyone is made fully aware, I won't concede that that is what the majority want.

I'd love to know, of those who didn't vote, how many "sympathise" with the cause of the 99%. I'm pretty sure that some of those who did vote "sympathise"... yet as per, until they are a force to be reckoned with (and not seen as crackpots, hippies and wasters), the sheeple will follow the herd.

[FJRider]

I believe and hope you are wrong. 99% (snigger) of the people on KB haven't a clue what the other 99% are about... mainly because they haven't tried to find out i.e. go there and ask them/discuss with them why they are there. Until everyone is made fully aware, I won't concede that that is what the majority want.

The MAJORITY of those that VOTED ... made their opinion heard ... thusly... the MAJORITY have spoken ...

With my lack of political knowledge ... I still see the ONE party Goverment that is closer to FPP than one could expect from an MMP system. The Minor parties will remain just that. I await the desperate "concessions" they will have to make to get any of THEIR issues heard (let alone made law) ...


I'd love to know, of those who didn't vote, how many "sympathise" with the cause of the 99%. I'm pretty sure that some of those who did vote "sympathise"... yet as per, until they are a force to be reckoned with (and not seen as crackpots, hippies and wasters), the sheeple will follow the herd.

I think even the crackpots, hippies, and the wasters ... will now realise that no change to the system ... will come anytime soon ...

[mashman]

The MAJORITY of those that VOTED ... made their opinion heard ... thusly... the MAJORITY have spoken ...

With my lack of political knowledge ... I still see the ONE party Goverment that is closer to FPP than one could expect from an MMP system. The Minor parties will remain just that. I await the desperate "concessions" they will have to make to get any of THEIR issues heard (let alone made law) ...

I think even the crackpots, hippies, and the wasters ... will now realise that no change to the system ... will come anytime soon ...

:rofl: true, of those that voted... amazing that most of them don't want asset sales, yet JK has decided he has a mandate to do it. I'll never understand that.

Ah well, I guess that's just the way it is... I'd had to be a minor party about now.

I hope you're wrong too.

[BoristheBiter]

:rofl: true, of those that voted... amazing that most of them don't want asset sales, yet JK has decided he has a mandate to do it. I'll never understand that.

Ah well, I guess that's just the way it is... I'd had to be a minor party about now.

I hope you're wrong too.

I guess that is why you are not in politics.

He said to everyone he is going to sell assets, he got voted in with a massive majority. what does that tell you?
Yes I know you will call everyone sheeple......Blahblahblah.......:violin:

Hate to be a minor party, why? Oh that's right, its because they all said they wont work with National :rofl: Look at them back peddling as quickly as the could on Sat night.

Other than ACT, UNF and National the rest might as well fuck off home as there is no point to them being there. Not like there was one in the first place.

[mashman]

I guess that is why you are not in politics.

He said to everyone he is going to sell assets, he got voted in with a massive majority. what does that tell you?
Yes I know you will call everyone sheeple......Blahblahblah.......:violin:

Hate to be a minor party, why? Oh that's right, its because they all said they wont work with National :rofl: Look at them back peddling as quickly as the could on Sat night.

Other than ACT, UNF and National the rest might as well fuck off home as there is no point to them being there. Not like there was one in the first place.

I wouldn't last as a politician. My hypocrisy will only go so far... not so career politicians, or those who are only in it because it was on their bucket list it would seem.

That tells me that they are sheep funnily enough. We don't wanna sell the assets, but we'll vote for them anyway. Genius. That or the vote was rigged :corn:

Heh, true, the minor parties will likely have to bend their principles to have their good ideas heard... heaven forbid the nats would implement a policy because it makes sense and not expect some form of "payment" in return for doing the party a favour :blink:. That's one of the bigger reasons I detest these dickheads and their way of doing things. It never ceases to amaze me that they sell the people down the river in one way, so that they can have "their" policy implemented because it supposedly benefits us in a different way. I won't vote for that shite. Baaaaaaaaa.

I'm sure JK sees it that way. Hang on a minute are you :shit: ........ so much for working together for the sake of the country eh...

[BoristheBiter]

I wouldn't last as a politician. My hypocrisy will only go so far... not so career politicians, or those who are only in it because it was on their bucket list it would seem.

That tells me that they are sheep funnily enough. We don't wanna sell the assets, but we'll vote for them anyway. Genius. That or the vote was rigged :corn:

Heh, true, the minor parties will likely have to bend their principles to have their good ideas heard... heaven forbid the nats would implement a policy because it makes sense and not expect some form of "payment" in return for doing the party a favour :blink:. That's one of the bigger reasons I detest these dickheads and their way of doing things. It never ceases to amaze me that they sell the people down the river in one way, so that they can have "their" policy implemented because it supposedly benefits us in a different way. I won't vote for that shite. Baaaaaaaaa.

I'm sure JK sees it that way. Hang on a minute are you :shit: ........ so much for working together for the sake of the country eh...

I guess that's because you are wrong on so many levels and either don't know it, know it but won't expect it or still think that 99% are still with you.

[scissorhands]

Nothing is as it seems, all smoke and mirrors

Free accommodation for some, manipulated pawn for others

:corn:

[mashman]

I guess that's because you are wrong on so many levels and either don't know it, know it but won't expect it or still think that 99% are still with you.

Probably wrong on some levels (still waiting for that to be proven :shifty:, I WILL change my mind where the argument makes sense), know it but don't accept it (as there are other ways) and never expected the 99% to be with me in anyway shape or form, more the other way around.