The Election - who among us will vote National?

[Tunahunter]

So far only one party has promised to repeal the ridiculous ACC levy rate for motorbikes in NZ - who will you vote for?

[bogan]

So far only one party has promised to repeal the ridiculous ACC levy rate for motorbikes in NZ

Which party is that?

[blackdog]

Which party is that?

Ask StoneY. I'm sure he can tell you who's dick tastes best.

[Tunahunter]

Which party is that?

Labour, heard the words from Goff's very mouth at the Bikoi

[bogan]

Labour, heard the words from Goff's very mouth at the Bikoi

So did I, but they went back on that rather quickly. I have not heard of any parties currently promising to reduce ACC levies, or reverse the steps towards privatisation that national has implemented.

[Tunahunter]

So did I, but they went back on that rather quickly. I have not heard of any parties currently promising to reduce ACC levies, or reverse the steps towards privatisation that national has implemented.

I'm pretty sure Labour will NEVER privatise ACC - can't recall them backtracking on the ACC promise, but I have been out of the country.

[nothingflash]

Labour, heard the words from Goff's very mouth at the Bikoi

And Goff doesn't lie...he said so on the Leaders Debate the other night so it must be true.

[slofox]

And Goff doesn't lie...he said so on the Leaders Debate the other night so it must be true.

:gob::facepalm::laugh::killingme: :rofl: :rofl: :killingme: :killingme: :wings:

[Indiana_Jones]

Labour, heard the words from Goff's very mouth at the Bikoi

He'll promise you a tug job and a walnut whip. He knows he doesn't have to make good as the chances of him getting in are pretty slim lol.

-Indy

[Gremlin]

Probably voting National, but I'm right wing. Act may as well be a bunch of school kids squabbling over a sand pit, Peter Dunne does fuck all.

Winston will hopefully never be in parliament again, that lying greasy fucker should be shot... twice. Don't get me started on the hippies either.

Labour was in charge for 9 of the most prosperous years ever... look where that got us.

[Shadows]

Labour was in charge for 9 of the most prosperous years ever... look where that got us.

Whaddya mean? We're now right up there with the best countries in the Third World.

[riffer]

I have a personal assurance from Chris Hipkins, my local MP and Labour spokesperson for ACC, that they will be removing the ACC component on registration on ALL vehicles.

Bad news = it will have to come from somewhere, and the price of gas will have to go up to cover it.

[Usarka]

I have a personal assurance from Chris Hipkins, my local MP and Labour spokesperson for ACC, that they will be removing the ACC component on registration on ALL vehicles.


Ah the bueaty of MMP. Promises are made on the assumption that the party governs alone. If they have to form a coalition with another party then all promises are out the window (regardless of whether we're talking Labout, Nat, Act, Greens, That little troll Dunne etc)

[Flip]

Probably voting National, but I'm right wing. Act may as well be a bunch of school kids squabbling over a sand pit, Peter Dunne does fuck all.

Winston will hopefully never be in parliament again, that lying greasy fucker should be shot... twice. Don't get me started on the hippies either.

Labour was in charge for 9 of the most prosperous years ever... look where that got us.

The wealthy 1% thank you for your vote.

[ac3_snow]

I'l vote national simply cause I think phil goff is a muppet who should not be running the country.

In my mind Key is the lesser of two evils.:devil2:

[nerrrd]

Labour or National have been in charge for the last 20 years or more...surely that means neither of them really know what they're doing, since together they both got us to this point in the first place.

Either that or it doesn't really matter what they do, we're at the mercy of the global economy.

I wouldn't believe anything either of them say about ACC or anything else.

[Ocean1]

I wouldn't believe anything either of them say about ACC or anything else.

What do you expect? They're just saying what they think you want to hear, that's how you win this game. If that's got little relation to the real world or workable schemes to improve it who's fault is that?

As long as the voting public believe a better lifestyle comes from anything other than hard work and sensible personal fiscal policy then politicians will continue to offer them bullshit rather than facts.

[DR650gary]

The wealthy 1% thank you for your vote.

That is one way of looking at it.

With effort I am sure a clever lad like you can figure out how that wealthy 1% can pay enough tax for the rest to survive on with their lazy arses on the couch and their gobs firmly stuck to the welfare tit.

I think the extra ACC charge is a bit unfair, but not as unfair as having to support over 55% of the country through direct or indirect welfare (working for families).

So be nice to those of us who are wealthy enough to be off any benefit as we are the only ones who actually pay any bills. The rest of the population are bills!

[Woodman]

Would anyone really vote for a party just because of the ACC levy issue?

[MSTRS]

I have a personal assurance from Chris Hipkins, my local MP and Labour spokesperson for ACC, that they will be removing the ACC component on registration on ALL vehicles.

Bad news = it will have to come from somewhere, and the price of gas will have to go up to cover it.

That's not bad news. Pay your share for the time you are exposed to motoring risk, and no pay when not using = much fairer system.
Mind you, if the bastards add more than around 10c/l we could be forgiven for going postal on their arses...

[Banditbandit]

Probably voting National, but I'm right wing.

Labour was in charge for 9 of the most prosperous years ever... look where that got us.

Don't you see the inherent contradiction in what you are saying? Or am I reading it wrong? Surely if Labour was the Government during our most prosperous years, then why not bring them back again ????

[MSTRS]

But that's just it...
We weren't prosperous because of Labour, any more than we are now struggling because of National.

[Banditbandit]

But that's just it...
We weren't prosperous because of Labour, any more than we are now struggling because of National.

Oh ... ?? That's not what the politicians tell us, nor is it what a lot of people ...

If we are not prosperous because of the government, nor are we strugglng because of the government .. why then are economic policies so important? because that would mean that economic policies are meaningless ...

[Banditbandit]

Would anyone really vote for a party just because of the ACC levy issue?

People voted for JFK because he wore a blue shirt ..

[MSTRS]

Oh ... ?? That's not what the politicians tell us, nor is it what a lot of people ...

If we are not prosperous because of the government, nor are we strugglng because of the government .. why then are economic policies so important? because that would mean that economic policies are meaningless ...

No No No...
Economic policies are most important.
What they amount too is Labour spends our money whether we have it or not, to increase our reliance on them, whilst National spends our money whether we have it or not, to increase the wealth of their wealthy mates.

NZ is an irrelevance on the world stage. No particular strategic importance to the so-called super powers, with a total population less than a quarter of most the world's major cities, no 'important' manufacturing, and totally reliant on what primary produce the world will buy from us and at what price.
Not to forget our other great 'export'...tourism. If the rest of the world has no money or isn't spending, they don't come here.

[riffer]

People voted for JFK because he wore a blue shirt ..

Well the men did. the women just fantasised about him shagging them.

[Smifffy]

I have a personal assurance from Chris Hipkins, my local MP and Labour spokesperson for ACC, that they will be removing the ACC component on registration on ALL vehicles.

Bad news = it will have to come from somewhere, and the price of gas will have to go up to cover it.

That wasn't what he put in writing to me in an email earlier this year. The mail is quoted in full on the McSAC thread.

[cs363]

Well the latest comment I've seen from Goff regarding ACC levies is in the latest issue of BRM, where he says Labour would 'look at it'........ which is normally political speak for doing fuck all.

[MSTRS]

That wasn't what he put in writing to me in an email earlier this year. The mail is quoted in full on the McSAC thread.

Link, please. There be thousands of posts and heaps of threads around the McSAC...

[Smifffy]

Link, please. There be thousands of posts and heaps of threads around the McSAC...

You're right, I just had a quick look myself, so here's the whole thing again, since people have such short memories:


Admittedly this was in March, so if there has been a PUBLICLY WRITTEN statement of intended policy, I'd love to see it. I followed up with his suggested other point of contact and got called an ignorant fool for my trouble.

Hope this helps.



Hi Smifffy

I'm not aware of any commitments that we've made regarding the
Motorcycle Safety Levy. We're currently working on our manifesto for the
coming election and I'm sure we will give a clear indication of how we
see this and other issues affecting motor cycle owners being addressed.

With regard to the MSAC, I've been keeping in regular contact with Brent
Hutchison, who is the BRONZ representative on the committee. I was also
a bit concerned about the late addition of the AA representative. I'd
suggest that if you want more info on what that group is up to, perhaps
you might like to get in touch with Brent?

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Chris


-----Original Message-----

Sent: Tuesday, 1 March 2011 11:01 p.m.
To: Chris Hipkins
Subject: ACC Motorcycle Levy & MC safety advisory council

Kia Ora Mr Hipkins,

I am writing to you as an avid motorcyclist to enquire about your
party's policy regarding the recently introduced Motorcycle Safety Levy.

I have been told that you made a promise to return the levy to the level
that it was set prior to the National party led government taking
office. Is this correct?

Furthermore I would like to know if you are aware of the activities of
the recently established Motorcycle Safety Advisory Council, chaired by
Mr Gareth Morgan?

I understand that since the establishment and announcement of the
council, ministerial intervention has resulted in the addition of a
representative of the AA, an Automobile lobby group, to the council. Is
this correct?

In the interests of open and transparent governance, are you able to
advise interested motorcyclists where they may be able to obtain
information, and meeting minutes etc pertaining to the activities of
this group?

I have had some contact with some people that claim to be members of
this group via an online motorcycling forum, however they tell me that
they are unable to provide any information on the groups activities as
this would be a breach of communication protocol.

Whilst I believe that motorcycle safety is an issue of national
importance, I don't think that it is a risk to national security.

I would very much appreciate any information that you could obtain for
me regarding this, particularly since the 'communications working group'
of this council are proving to be so uncommunicative. All we have seen
since the levies began to be collected is one press release and
accompanying photo op from the Minister.

Sincerely
Smifffy

[slofox]

Would anyone really vote for a party just because of the ACC levy issue?

Well I wouldn't for a start. But I would vote AGAINST a party because of said issue.

[Spearfish]

Would anyone really vote for a party just because of the ACC levy issue?

No, I can't vote just on the ACC levy issue because I ride a 2 stroke so the ban the 2 stroke issue is up there high on the list considering the "mould your own sandals out of oatmeal" party is polling dangerously high.

[ellipsis]

No No No...
Economic policies are most important.
What they amount too is Labour spends our money whether we have it or not, to increase our reliance on them, whilst National spends our money whether we have it or not, to increase the wealth of their wealthy mates.

NZ is an irrelevance on the world stage.

...and most kiwis seem to have an over inflated sense of their worth or standing on the planet...too much self belief in the kiwi myth...8 gauge wire and the we can do it attitude.....bollocks..we deserve every bit of shafting we get...me included...we are a smug, unaware bunch of misfits at the good end of the planet...til we let that bit go, to...

[Banditbandit]

You're right, I just had a quick look myself, so here's the whole thing again, since people have such short memories:




Hi Smifffy

I'm not aware of any commitments that we've made regarding the
Motorcycle Safety Levy. We're currently working on our manifesto for the
coming election and I'm sure we will give a clear indication of how we
see this and other issues affecting motor cycle owners being addressed.

With regard to the MSAC, I've been keeping in regular contact with Brent
Hutchison, who is the BRONZ representative on the committee. I was also
a bit concerned about the late addition of the AA representative. I'd
suggest that if you want more info on what that group is up to, perhaps
you might like to get in touch with Brent?

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Chris



Sincerely
Smifffy

Yeah .. naaa .. that's a typical politican's "say-nothing" answer

[Morcs]

Privatise everything.

Those who can afford, get.
Those who cant, dont.

Rather than current situation where service for most things is pretty crap so that those who can afford, pay for those who cant as well as their own private.

This accounts for everything pretty much - health, education, transportation etc. etc.

[Banditbandit]

No No No...
Economic policies are most important.
What they amount too is Labour spends our money whether we have it or not, to increase our reliance on them, whilst National spends our money whether we have it or not, to increase the wealth of their wealthy mates.



:killingme: :wings: :laugh: :rofl: :killingme: :wings: :clap: :clap: :clap: :2thumbsup: :rofl:

[Smifffy]

Yeah .. naaa .. that's a typical politican's "say-nothing" answer

I know. Far, far, far removed from a 'promise' to remove the levy. But people will believe what they want to believe. People also heard Phil Goff 'promise' to remove the levy at the bikeoi. I took the time to search out the full vid clip of his speech, and no such promise was made. Sorry I don't have a link for that, and as I recall I did take a bit of searching out. I was specifically watching it for the promise, and would have quoted it in my mail to Hipkins if I'd found it - was the reason I was looking for it in the first place.

There are possibly many reasons to vote for them, but removal of the ACC levy isn't one of them, at this stage.

Hmm time to write Hipkins again for an update, perhaps.

[MSTRS]

:killingme: :wings: :laugh: :rofl: :killingme: :wings: :clap: :clap: :clap: :2thumbsup: :rofl:
What?:innocent: You doubt my financial/political acumen?

I know. Far, far, far removed from a 'promise' to remove the levy. But people will believe what they want to believe. People also heard Phil Goff 'promise' to remove the levy at the bikeoi. I took the time to search out the full vid clip of his speech, and no such promise was made. Sorry I don't have a link for that, and as I recall I did take a bit of searching out. I was specifically watching it for the promise, and would have quoted it in my mail to Hipkins if I'd found it - was the reason I was looking for it in the first place.

There are possibly many reasons to vote for them, but removal of the ACC levy isn't one of them, at this stage.

Hmm time to write Hipkins again for an update, perhaps.

He said, and I quote, "A Labour govt will reverse the changes made to ACC". That could mean almost anything, of course.
But, a number of us in HB were invited to a lunch with Goff, put on by Stuart Nash. At that lunch, we each had the opportunity to talk to Goff about our concerns, particularly around the bike/ACC issue. He stated categorically to our faces across the table, that he would remove the extra charges and return to the previous model.
At a later date, can't remember when/where, I heard him say that he 'was comfortable with the current ACC situation and would not be reversing anything'.
Like all pollies, he is a liar.

[Edbear]

What do you expect? They're just saying what they think you want to hear, that's how you win this game. If that's got little relation to the real world or workable schemes to improve it who's fault is that?

As long as the voting public believe a better lifestyle comes from anything other than hard work and sensible personal fiscal policy then politicians will continue to offer them bullshit rather than facts.

Now, now, why go and spoil it with facts..?


No No No...
Economic policies are most important.
What they amount too is Labour spends our money whether we have it or not, to increase our reliance on them, whilst National spends our money whether we have it or not, to increase the wealth of their wealthy mates.

NZ is an irrelevance on the world stage. No particular strategic importance to the so-called super powers, with a total population less than a quarter of most the world's major cities, no 'important' manufacturing, and totally reliant on what primary produce the world will buy from us and at what price.
Not to forget our other great 'export'...tourism. If the rest of the world has no money or isn't spending, they don't come here.

Same to you!

[Smifffy]

Let's see if the promise is real, shall we?

Hi Chris,

I know this is most likely a very busy time for you, and I have not written in a while, however I am keen to know how motorcycling issues have been incorporated into the manifesto that you have been working on since I last wrote. I have visited the ownyourfuture website, which the labour.org site indicated would be the preferred channel for policy releases. I wasn't able to find much specific policy there. For many of my motorcycling friends this will be a key issue in the coming election.

I have seen that Mr Hutchison has advised the motorcycling public that his services are no longer required by the advisory council, and this further lack of a representative who clearly communicated with motorcyclists vexes me even more.

I would greatly appreciate it if you would send me the policy regarding motorcycle registrations and ACC and I will happily share it with my motorcycling friends.

Good luck with your campaign.

Best regards

[sleemanj]

I'll probably be really unpopular for saying it (KB does tend to the right considerably!), but I am strongly leaning towards party vote Green this year.

Green are not THAT bad, they have become FAR more moderate (and sensible) recently under the new leadership. Gareth Hughes is one to watch I think, young up and comer so to speak.

Labour, who traditionally would garner my vote, just don't have any mojo since Helen and Michael left, there is no strong leadership, Goff, King, Cunliffe, give me a break. I would be interested to see Mallard take the reigns personally, once Goff gets the old heave-ho.

National, too far from my principles, even in their modern centrist clothes. Key is a good front man, sure he's a charlatan but he's a good one.

ACT, OMG, Don farkin Brash, are you farkin kidding me, seriously now, who's damned stupid idea was that!

Maori, ugh, no. Mana, oh HELL no.

[Smifffy]

For me so far, the Greens have spent too much time slagging off the other leaders and not doing enough of their own things. I can slag pollies off myself I don't need to vote for someone to do it for me. I do think that their release today about Aus banks strip-mining capital out of NZ was a good one.


I'll probably be really unpopular for saying it (KB does tend to the right considerably!), but I am strongly leaning towards party vote Green this year.

Green are not THAT bad, they have become FAR more moderate (and sensible) recently under the new leadership. Gareth Hughes is one to watch I think, young up and comer so to speak.

Labour, who traditionally would garner my vote, just don't have any mojo since Helen and Michael left, there is no strong leadership, Goff, King, Cunliffe, give me a break. I would be interested to see Mallard take the reigns personally, once Goff gets the old heave-ho.

National, too far from my principles, even in their modern centrist clothes. Key is a good front man, sure he's a charlatan but he's a good one.

ACT, OMG, Don farkin Brash, are you farkin kidding me, seriously now, who's damned stupid idea was that!

Maori, ugh, no. Mana, oh HELL no.

[Flip]

Once a tax like the ACC on bike rego goes on it never comes off, unless that is there is a conservative right wing goverment and the tax on every dollar I earn over $60,000 goes down.

My issue is that a vote for National is a vote for the BRT, which don't represent many of us here in the real world.

[Swoop]

I could not trust labour to do anything but "investigate" the levy & even then they would simply hire consultants to do that work.
As for removing the levy completely...:rofl:

The greens will have you riding a one-horsepower transportation device which will be... a horse. You will have to buy your own saddle and will be paying an emissions tax on it as well.

[DR650gary]

My issue is that a vote for National is a vote for the BRT, which don't represent many of us here in the real world.

"Be Right There"? or Business Round Table. I'm not too good at acronyms.

If you work and earn a living, you are represented by the Business Round Table or your boss is.

It's a fact of life that what is good for your or your employers business will ultimately be good for your country.

Tax is a reality of life but when it becomes usurious, or is perceived to be, people will avoid/evade it or leave our country forever.

But you are right, as less of our population actually works for a living, the BRT may not represent many of us in the real world, because in this real world, New Zealand, the majority do not work or are not actually gainfully employed.

I see the few dollars that ACC is unjustly taking off me as a lot less onerous that the massive amount that Welfare is taking off me.

Cheers

[Usarka]

It's a fact of life that what is good for your or your employers business will ultimately be good for your country.



Ummm, no that's far from fact. Using extreme examples, slave labour would be awesome for busines but not for the country.

Dumping waste would be good for some employers but they have to pay for it to get properly disposed which is good for the country.

Etc.

[DR650gary]

Ummm, no that's far from fact. Using an extreme examples, slave labour would be awesome for busines but not for the country.

Dumping waste would be good for some employers but they have to pay for it to get properly disposed which is good for the country.

Etc.

I think we can all find silly examples, however, China has a form of slave labour and dumps shit whenever possible.

Are they doing ok or have I missed something?

I think you get the basic tenent of my argument.

This country needs employers and employment or the drain will just get bigger and we will drop into it.

Just my opinion.

[Banditbandit]

What?:innocent: You doubt my financial/political acumen?




Not at all - your analysis just made me laugh very loudly ..

[avgas]

I am voting Guido Fawkes United

They are the only party that could fix NZ Politics.

[Banditbandit]

It's a fact of life that what is good for your or your employers business will ultimately be good for your country.


Cheers


:clap: :nya: :wings: :wings: :rofl: :laugh: :killingme


Jeez ... where did you get that idea from?

[Flip]

I see the few dollars that ACC is unjustly taking off me as a lot less onerous that the massive amount that Welfare is taking off me.

Cheers

The cry of the wealthy right wing, "look how poor the poor are making us". I choose to attack this argument as it's an emotive capitalist point of view that holds no water with me.

I am a bit of an old fasioned Kiwi socialist at heart.

[Renegade]

the top 10% wealthy in this country apparently pay 70% of the taxes.

Now the more successful my bosses business is and the more he makes is good for me and the other employees because he takes us along for the ride i.e i have a job, i get regular pay rises.

The boss spends money at other businesses on consumables or plant equipment, i spend money on my toys etc

Its no different in every business area, National needs to drive business growth, where as labour and its red-tape crap like ETS carbon taxes, capital gains etc all strangle this growth.

The selling of assets is the same, no one likes the idea but its standard business model really to free capital to invest in other areas of growth.

It really has to be done, we also need to remember that labour had several terms in power to have us debt free but they didnt, they spent it on socialist policies that have reaped little return.

They are moaning about our military now, Labour are the ones that moth balled the airforce rendering them worthless and wasting millons in maintenance, they bought the Lavs that had to be refitted, they sent the troops to afghanastan.

Some one mentioned trevor mallard, please if i assaulted a fellow employee at work id be down the road, but he keeps his job at $250k a year?? and dont forget Labour breaking the election spending rules only to retrospectively change the law to make it legal!!!!

i could go on and on....National inherited this, now they need time to fix it and one term aint long enough

[DR650gary]

I am a bit of an old fasioned Kiwi socialist at heart.

Good for you. Just explain to me how the poor will ever get further ahead if there are no wealthy people. We just create money? Hitler tried....failed, Mugabe is still trying....still failing.

"Poor" is also part of an emotive phrase.

I have seen poor people throughout the world. New Zealand has no "poor". We do have uneducated sector who have no skills in managing finance and many in a welfare roundabout, but no poor. Poor in every country that I have seen them in have been out working to make a dollar or a Ringit or a Baht etc. Not lurking in a welfare office.

This not meant to be a welfare beatup, but as a nation we need to understand that attacking the "so called" rich with a stick to beat more money out of them to give to the poor (read voters) is Marxism, not socialism. Remember, Helen Clarke was a leading light in the Socialist International Organisation for many years so Marx came naturally to her.

Cheers

[Usarka]

I think we can all find silly examples, however, China has a form of slave labour and dumps shit whenever possible.

Are they doing ok or have I missed something?


A silly blanket statement deserved silly examples. Would you seriously rather live in China than here in NZ????

[Smifffy]

A silly blanket statement deserved silly examples. Would you seriously rather live in China than here in NZ????

I'm sure China is fine for the top 1% (or 10%).

:cool:

[SPman]

what is good for you or your employers business will ultimately be good for your country.That really worked well in the USA....Europe.... etc etc , didn't it......

Just explain to me how the poor will ever get further ahead if there are no wealthy people You wouldn't be espousing the "trickle down" effect there, would you.......so beloved by the neo-cons...... such a total crock of shit in reality.

"Poor" is also part of an emotive phrase. Agree with you there - "poor" is a state of mind where you become a victim of others - I prefered being "temporarily broke" or "impecunious"......

[Mully]

I'll probably be really unpopular for saying it (KB does tend to the right considerably!), but I am strongly leaning towards party vote Green this year.

Green are not THAT bad, they have become FAR more moderate (and sensible) recently under the new leadership. Gareth Hughes is one to watch I think, young up and comer so to speak.

I'd love to vote Green - I probably agree with more of their policies than any other Party. But a vote for the Greens is a vote for Labour - they've got a while to go before they're mature enough to be in a sensible Government...

Oh, and I've met Gareth Hughes - don't ever meet him if you want to keep liking him. He's the most obnoxious politician I've ever met (including Helen Clark)


Labour, heard the words from Goff's very mouth at the Bikoi

Yep - at that Toy Run thing we did, someone asked Goff if he'd reverse the ACC hikes and his answer was "Yeah, of course we will"....

Nek minnit...


Well the latest comment I've seen from Goff regarding ACC levies is in the latest issue of BRM, where he says Labour would 'look at it'........ which is normally political speak for doing fuck all.

I read something similar a couple of months after the Toy Run - Goff saying "they'd look at it". Politican speak for "nope - rich prick bikers can keep paying it" (think about it - the "poor" don't ride bikes anymore with cheap Jap imports). It's pretty hard for pollies to give up easy revenue....

[superman]

But a vote for the Greens is a vote for Labour

That's my problem, if only the greens would form a coalition with national. I'm sure they do in some alternate universe.

[Robert Taylor]

So far only one party has promised to repeal the ridiculous ACC levy rate for motorbikes in NZ - who will you vote for?

Why would you vote on a single issue when the stark reality is theres more to life than riding motorcycles?

[NONONO]

http://youtu.be/VeJSFVWKnsE

Trust me!

[Robert Taylor]

Probably voting National, but I'm right wing. Act may as well be a bunch of school kids squabbling over a sand pit, Peter Dunne does fuck all.

Winston will hopefully never be in parliament again, that lying greasy fucker should be shot... twice. Don't get me started on the hippies either.

Labour was in charge for 9 of the most prosperous years ever... look where that got us.

Very well said

[NONONO]

http://youtu.be/LE4OPxAO1u4

Lovely, I trust him.

[5150]

http://youtu.be/VeJSFVWKnsE

Trust me!

Yup. So that is the muppet that trusting NZ public voted in :facepalm:

[NONONO]

Luv Junkeez, lovely smile, a real kiwi bloke.

[Smifffy]

Why would you vote on a single issue when the stark reality is theres more to life than riding motorcycles?

Well it seems to me that the situation we are in is fairly well entrenched, and external events, such as global crises, earthquakes, oil spills and oil prices have more impact on our lives than a political party's 'manifesto'.

It seems to me that no political party actually has "The Answer" (TM) and whilst it may very well be extremely selfish, it seems the best thing to do is to vote along the lines of "what will allow me to best continue the parts of my lifestyle that I enjoy DESPITE the best efforts of our political masters.

It was selfish voting by the masses of bludgers and the politically correct social engineers that mostly got us here, so fuck it, let's ride.

If whoever gets in this next election doesn't manage any serious improvement during their term I fully expect to take my tax and spending dollars overseas before the subsequent election.

Even Helen couldn't bear to live in the post-socialist distopia she created and has fucked off. (Not that that is a bad thing...)

If anyone thinks that either party can sensibly juggle the demands of balancing the books and appeasing the lazy and self-indulgent then they are barking.


As for what's best for employers? My employer absolutely creamed it when there were subsidies, tarriffs and import bans left right and centre. Good luck getting those back.

[Genie]

But that's just it...
We weren't prosperous because of Labour, any more than we are now struggling because of National.

me sentiments...exactly.

[Spearfish]

Well it seems to me that the situation we are in is fairly well entrenched, and external events, such as global crises, earthquakes, oil spills and oil prices have more impact on our lives than a political party's 'manifesto'.

It seems to me that no political party actually has "The Answer" (TM) and whilst it may very well be extremely selfish, it seems the best thing to do is to vote along the lines of "what will allow me to best continue the parts of my lifestyle that I enjoy DESPITE the best efforts of our political masters.

It was selfish voting by the masses of bludgers and the politically correct social engineers that mostly got us here, so fuck it, let's ride.

If whoever gets in this next election doesn't manage any serious improvement during their term I fully expect to take my tax and spending dollars overseas before the subsequent election.

Even Helen couldn't bear to live in the post-socialist distopia she created and has fucked off. (Not that that is a bad thing...)

If anyone thinks that either party can sensibly juggle the demands of balancing the books and appeasing the lazy and self-indulgent then they are barking.


As for what's best for employers? My employer absolutely creamed it when there were subsidies, tarriffs and import bans left right and centre. Good luck getting those back.

Are you saying indirectly you looked at carvers video link he posted and absorbed some of it?:scratch:

[Smifffy]

Are you saying indirectly you looked at carvers video link he posted and absorbed some of it?:scratch:

NO, that's not what i'm saying at all.

[Spearfish]

Yup. So that is the muppet that trusting NZ public voted in :facepalm:


No different than reading the book Absolute Power- the Helen Clark years and believing every little drop of information as gospel or even worse, ACC stats on bikers habits of falling off.

[NONONO]

Lovely kiwi bloke Junkeez, got a batch in Hawea, no Huntley, wait, Hawkes Bay, doh, ...Hawaii, that's it Hawaii!!
Lovely smile.
Brought up in a state house.
http://youtu.be/3iogJrtUWLk

[Mully]

It seems to me that no political party actually has "The Answer" (TM) and whilst it may very well be extremely selfish, it seems the best thing to do is to vote along the lines of "what will allow me to best continue the parts of my lifestyle that I enjoy DESPITE the best efforts of our political masters.

Bingo. I'd happily pay more tax if I thought politicians would actually do some good with it.

(BTW, that's why the Greens do really well in overseas votes - they'll vote for "Clean and green" if they don't have to live with it)

[Motig]

Unfortunately all National seems to be doing is repeating the same old tired policies election after election. Only thing they've done different is change the wrapping paper. Labour or Greens for me, just having difficulty deciding which one. Toss a coin maybe !

[bogan]

It strikes me as a bit strange that National seem to want to sell off the assets, while Labour want to export the production (going by the min wage increase again). Do any of the parties actually have plans to make jobs for Kiwis? Because there are many good people looking for them.

[Robert Taylor]

Don't you see the inherent contradiction in what you are saying? Or am I reading it wrong? Surely if Labour was the Government during our most prosperous years, then why not bring them back again ????

They werent the reason for the ''prosperity''. Unless I came down in the last shower it was all about high overseas commodity prices and demand, the housing market going ballistic and too much easy credit.
Our real wealth producers had a whole raft of stealth taxes and levies then placed upon them by that despicable bitch and her mottly lot. Of course those levies are not removed when the economy cycles back.
Taxpayer funds were squandered on lavish holidays for male cabinet ministers and their boyfriends and hip hop tours. What a circus. Worst Government since that idiot Norman Kirk.

[Smifffy]

Unfortunately all National seems to be doing is repeating the same old tired policies election after election. Only thing they've done different is change the wrapping paper. Labour or Greens for me, just having difficulty deciding which one. Toss a coin maybe !

I really don't give a fuck who you vote for, but please vote for a reason.

When I'm walking home in winter by the light of my hand-cranked torch and I get a stone in my birkenstocks, I'd like to believe that it was because most of the country didn't want deep sea drilling, rather than down to a coin toss.

Just think, if the coin went the other way I could just as easily have been in a state house cooking P in the laundry.

[Robert Taylor]

Bingo. I'd happily pay more tax if I thought politicians would actually do some good with it.

(BTW, that's why the Greens do really well in overseas votes - they'll vote for "Clean and green" if they don't have to live with it)

More to the point its the tax they are not collecting. We had a US $1000 consignment turn up a few days ago and it arrived without any interception by customs, therefore no broker fees to clear, no port fees and levies and therefore also no gst on the value of the goods, on the freight and on all of the levies.

Now thats all very nice but in reality its wrong. There is nothing wrong in principle with Governments collecting taxes at the border, its another income stream and heaven knows they need it with so many people expecting Governments to pay for everything.

Clearly Customs are not doing their job or dont have enough capacity to vet every incoming parcel / coomodities into the country. If the infrastructure and staffing level of customs was significantly increased then they would be able to collect tax on a whole lot more inbound freight including the great inequity that occurs, a high percentage of private imports not attracting any processing cost or gst at all. The potential for extra tax revenue would be massive and should far outweigh the cost of increasing the size of NZ customs.

[Smifffy]

I'm sure if you wrote them a letter and enclosed a cheque, they'd bank it. That would surely salve the conscience when you charge GST on the goods to the end customer?


More to the point its the tax they are not collecting. We had a US $1000 consignment turn up a few days ago and it arrived without any interception by customs, therefore no broker fees to clear, no port fees and levies and therefore also no gst on the value of the goods, on the freight and on all of the levies.

Now thats all very nice but in reality its wrong. There is nothing wrong in principle with Governments collecting taxes at the border, its another income stream and heaven knows they need it with so many people expecting Governments to pay for everything.

Clearly Customs are not doing their job or dont have enough capacity to vet every incoming parcel / coomodities into the country. If the infrastructure and staffing level of customs was significantly increased then they would be able to collect tax on a whole lot more inbound freight including the great inequity that occurs, a high percentage of private imports not attracting any processing cost or gst at all. The potential for extra tax revenue would be massive and should far outweigh the cost of increasing the size of NZ customs.

[5150]

I really don't give a fuck who you vote for, but please vote for a reason.

When I'm walking home in winter by the light of my hand-cranked torch and I get a stone in my birkenstocks, I'd like to believe that it was because most of the country didn't want deep sea drilling, rather than down to a coin toss.

Just think, if the coin went the other way I could just as easily have been in a state house cooking P in the laundry.

Agreed :niceone:

[Usarka]

Now thats all very nice but in reality its wrong. There is nothing wrong in principle with Governments collecting taxes at the border, its another income stream and heaven knows they need it with so many people expecting Governments to pay for everything.
.

Cool obviously also a capital gains tax supporter! :wari:

[Robert Taylor]

I'm sure if you wrote them a letter and enclosed a cheque, they'd bank it. That would surely salve the conscience when you charge GST on the goods to the end customer?

1) I have already written to my local MP ( A National one Im happy to say ) expressing concern about NZ Customs being inconsistent.

2) I wrote a cheque out to the local National party last week and they have banked it

[Robert Taylor]

Cool obviously also a capital gains tax supporter! :wari:

No, a supporter of consistency and fairness. Also a proponent of self responsibility instead of looking to the Government for everything.

[avgas]

2) I wrote a cheque out to the local National party last week and they have banked it
Because you felt they did not have enough money?

[Banditbandit]

the top 10% wealthy in this country apparently pay 70% of the taxes.



That is only true in a particular context and with certain conditions ... it is not generally true ...

Go here .. this table is what that assestion is based on ...

http://www.grownzeconomy.co.nz/uploads/89385/files/230807/Who_Pays_Tax_in_New_Zealand.pdf

The top 10% pay 37% of the tax ... but once you take into account things like Working for Families and other moneys returned to tax payers, then as a total, the group earning under $50,000 gets more money back than they pay in tax ... now that is not true for every individual in the group - and there will be many many people uin this forum who earn under $50,000 and get nothing back in terms of Working for Families or any other payouts .. they simply pay tax

The 1.3 million households with incomes under $110,000 a year collectively pay no net tax—that is, their total income support payments match their combined income tax.

Note this says "collectively" ... I earn more than $70,000 a year - I get no pay outs ... so I am paying tax ... and people here will be in the same position ..

To make the bald generalized statement that the top 10% or earners pay 70% of taxes and ignore the reality of individuals paying tax is misleading ...

[riffer]

Just got an email from Chris to clarify to you all:

"Over the last couple of years the ACC levies for the Motor Vehicle Account have increased substantially. At present the bulk of vehicle registration costs relates to ACC levies. Motorcyclists have been particularly penalised by ACC levy increases.

Labour is concerned that increased vehicle registration costs are penalising those who own more than one vehicle, are placing undue financial pressure on those who only travel short distances, such as the elderly, and may be leading to an increase in the number of unregistered vehicles on the road.

Labour will investigate transferring a greater portion of the ACC motor vehicle annual licensing fee onto the petrol levy so that everyone pays a fairer share of the Motor Vehicle Account and no one group is heavily burdened.

ACC is in sound financial shape, and Labour does not see a need for ACC levy increases. Recent deficits were the result of lower investment returns due to global economic conditions and one-off changes to the way historical claims liability is calculated. ACC is now back in surplus and we do not believe that any of the improvements we are suggesting will require levy increases."

[bogan]

Looks like political waffle to me, supposed to sound good, but no tangible promises. And no hint of a reduction of the levies to the pre 2010 increases.

[yachtie10]

Just got an email from Chris to clarify to you all:

"Over the last couple of years the ACC levies for the Motor Vehicle Account have increased substantially. At present the bulk of vehicle registration costs relates to ACC levies. Motorcyclists have been particularly penalised by ACC levy increases.

Labour is concerned that increased vehicle registration costs are penalising those who own more than one vehicle, are placing undue financial pressure on those who only travel short distances, such as the elderly, and may be leading to an increase in the number of unregistered vehicles on the road.

Labour will investigate transferring a greater portion of the ACC motor vehicle annual licensing fee onto the petrol levy so that everyone pays a fairer share of the Motor Vehicle Account and no one group is heavily burdened.

ACC is in sound financial shape, and Labour does not see a need for ACC levy increases. Recent deficits were the result of lower investment returns due to global economic conditions and one-off changes to the way historical claims liability is calculated. ACC is now back in surplus and we do not believe that any of the improvements we are suggesting will require levy increases."

What that says to me is we might change things but no promises (as if there worth anything anyway). But as the books are now good we will look at spending a lot more so you can bet reductions are unlikely but we will hand out more money to buy votes and get it back into trouble.

[riffer]

What that says to me is we might change things but no promises (as if there worth anything anyway). But as the books are now good we will look at spending a lot more so you can bet reductions are unlikely but we will hand out more money to buy votes and get it back into trouble.

You really need to change your meds.

[The Everlasting]

I don't even know who to vote for,Phil Goff doesn't really seem like a leader,John Key does,but I don't like his policies....

[yachtie10]

You really need to change your meds.

just balancing things
Wasnt it mr goff who promised they would return things to the way they were in ACC (yes as i was there)
Then backtracked and now that waffle.

anybody who tries to convince anyone to vote labour on the strength of that statement really does need meds.

vote for who you want but make your arguements reasonable

I dont like a lot of things national do but i cant see one thing labour are promising that will help me get a job (in fact most will have the opposite effect)

[Smifffy]

Thanks Riffer,

Chris replied to me with the same content from his policy release. As someone pointed out prior to my involvement the promise is to 'investigate' the issue. Still a far cry from the position stated in the OP.

I can't see moving the levy to fuel being a palatable political option myself.

[Robert Taylor]

Because you felt they did not have enough money?

New Plymouth is the most marginal National held electorate in the country and because instinctively I dislike unionists like Andrew Little anything that will help in any small way to keep him from dislodging Jonathan Young is a good thing.

[SPman]

I don't even know who to vote for,Phil Goff doesn't really seem like a leader,John Key does,but I don't like his policies....
If you are voting on what seems to be a leader.....there is no hope. John Key knows how to play a mainstream crowd - he's someone who likes the spotlight -full of shit, all show and no substance. Phil doesn't come across anywhere near as well as JK, even though he generally knows what he's talking about, he doesn't seem to have the ability to sway a mainstream crowd.......anyway, unless you are in their respective electorates, you won't be voting for either, directly.

[Robert Taylor]

If you are voting on what seems to be a leader.....there is no hope. John Key knows how to play a mainstream crowd - he's someone who likes the spotlight -full of shit, all show and no substance. Phil doesn't come across anywhere near as well as JK, even though he generally knows what he's talking about, he doesn't seem to have the ability to sway a mainstream crowd.......anyway, unless you are in their respective electorates, you won't be voting for either, directly.

First past the post was certainly a clearer system, that is why I voted for its continuance and will do so again in the referendum attached with our voting papers.

But are we all not collectively hypocrites?

-we all want to avoid taxes as much as possible

-we all want our goods as cheap as possible but turn a blind eye to the fact many goods are produced with sweatshop labour. And that in turn puts many of our own folk out of work, or has turned them into ''serfs'' working for big box retailers peddling all this stuff.

-with respect to ACC levies on motorcyclists many of us are not doing our bit by wearing effective safety gear and being highly visible. Ive always been a little at odds why black is a predominant colour of choice when it is one of the least visible colours???? Also the scooter fraternity needs a real shake about the casual nature of clothing they wear. If you fall off and are wearing jandals and short sleeves why should you still qualify for ACC?

-we all want high wages and full employment despite the very real inequities of overseas competition and the distortional effects of exchange rate

-we all expect the Government to pick up the pieces despite grizzling about the taxes we pay

And yet so many of us are against offshore ironsand mining and deep sea drilling, commercial operations that if handled properly by any Government would potentially bring a lot of wealth to this country, as have minerals in Australia. I am still filthy at the needless levies and stealth taxes the last Labour Government inflicted on our primary wealth producers and THEREFORE employers.

So how does all of that work?

Collectively we are also paying dearly for the after effects of a worldwide banking system that was totally out of control, too much easy credit and massively inflated house prices due to huge and un-needed property speculation. Now making housing totally unaffordable / unattainable for most young people trying to get onto the property ladder, that is really sad. Add to that cradle to the grave welfare that ultimately is unsustainable. Look at the Greeks, they have been totally out of control and in a bubble. Now that its proven that their extremely liberal systems are unsustainable they are grizzling big time, morons.

Ultimately no-one wants any pain or a dose of reality. Because of that and our mickey mouse electoral system we actually dont get the Government we need. Whilst not perfect the National party is the lesser of the main evils ''on offer''

I cannot recall its name but there was a manifesto circulating some months back for a new Conservative party, it wont of course gain any traction but much of what it said really resonated.

[Smifffy]

The biggest problem with MMP is this 'strategic voting' bullshit the minor parties suck the morons into. If everybody voted for the same party as their preferred candidate was from then it would be possible to get a clear mandate from the electorate.

Instead kiwis want to have their cake and eat it too.

"Ooh I'll vote for Josephine Bloggs because she seems like a really nice person and has done so much in our community over the years, I think she'll make a really good MP. But I don't really like the policies of that party she's with and their leader is a bit of tool, I think the Bill & Ben party have some good ideas, I'll give them my party vote"

Tick.

[bluninja]

Ultimately no-one wants any pain or a dose of reality. Because of that and our mickey mouse electoral system we actually dont get the Government we need. Whilst not perfect the National party is the lesser of the main evils ''on offer''

I cannot recall its name but there was a manifesto circulating some months back for a new Conservative party, it wont of course gain any traction but much of what it said really resonated.

Based on what is available I'm expecting to vote National (maybe my vote could swing it in Taranaki :) ) I hate MMP with a passion, the MPs and the government become divorced and les acountable to the electorate. I'd be happy with a 2 house legislature with first past the post making the government and proportional representation for a second house that provides a brake, or a check and balance against excesses of a large majority government.

I read the conservative leaflet, lots of things resonate until you consider them more carefully. I guess with ACT in a shambles there is room for a more right wing organisation to hoover up votes; if not now, maybe in a few years time.

[Usarka]

I'd be happy with a 2 house legislature with first past the post making the government and proportional representation for a second house that provides a brake, or a check and balance against excesses of a large majority government.


I thought it was fairly obvious in the very recent debt crisis in the US that type of system doesn't work when it really needs to.

[bluninja]

I thought it was fairly obvious in the very recent debt crisis in the US that type of system doesn't work when it really needs to.

That would be because they have only 2 parties and one controlling one house and one the other is a recipe for disaster. Correct me if I'm wrong but it's likely that there will be more than 2 parties sitting as MPs and with MMP there is unlikely to be an overall majority.

There are many other governments with 2 legislative chambers that work well for the majority of situations; most of them have more than 2 political parties.

[sleemanj]

"Ooh I'll vote for Josephine Bloggs because she seems like a really nice person and has done so much in our community over the years, I think she'll make a really good MP. But I don't really like the policies of that party she's with and their leader is a bit of tool, I think the Bill & Ben party have some good ideas, I'll give them my party vote"


That's the entire point of MMP, and if electorate MP's actually, you know, worked for their electorate, it would work much better.

Vote for the person you think will best represent your specific electorate and the issues that face it. Vote for the party you think will best represent the country as a whole. Unfortunately, MPs, electorate or list, don't give a shit about the people, by and large. Once the vote is cast, they are free and easy for 3 years.

If I was able to make changes...
1. Electorate MPs should be excluded from ALL cabinet positions. Their JOB is to represent the electorate, not be Associate Deputy Co-Minister Of something.
2. Electorate MPs must spend X days per week in their local office.
3. Any bills that are to be passed, Electorate MPs should be required to actively canvas their electorate to solicit opinions, and they should not be tied to party lines, in effect, all voting by Electorate MPs should be treated as a conscience vote.

Frankly, I'd like if Electorate MPs were required to divorce themselves from parties totally, only independents were permitted to stand. It'd be a bit too hard and costly to implement though I think.

[Smifffy]

It was meant to be the point of MMP, yes. People that believe it are the kind that want their cake and eat it too. However the weasels get in and do nothing but toady up to the leader and the party. Go for a ride around your electorate, most "vote for me" signs will have the party slogan/policy/jingle on them, not 'Retain maternity services for Wetewhukawe', or 'Fix the road to Shelbyville', or 'I want to save this school'.

You kind of expect the totally un-elected morons off the list to toe the party line, since toadying up to the party is the only way they get in in the first place.

Alamein Kopu anyone? Anyone? Did they ever get the furniture from her electorate office back? http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=125056


That's the entire point of MMP, and if electorate MP's actually, you know, worked for their electorate, it would work much better.

Vote for the person you think will best represent your specific electorate and the issues that face it. Vote for the party you think will best represent the country as a whole. Unfortunately, MPs, electorate or list, don't give a shit about the people, by and large. Once the vote is cast, they are free and easy for 3 years.

If I was able to make changes...
1. Electorate MPs should be excluded from ALL cabinet positions. Their JOB is to represent the electorate, not be Associate Deputy Co-Minister Of something.
2. Electorate MPs must spend X days per week in their local office.
3. Any bills that are to be passed, Electorate MPs should be required to actively canvas their electorate to solicit opinions, and they should not be tied to party lines, in effect, all voting by Electorate MPs should be treated as a conscience vote.

Frankly, I'd like if Electorate MPs were required to divorce themselves from parties totally, only independents were permitted to stand. It'd be a bit too hard and costly to implement though I think.

[Gremlin]

There is an easier way...

Other small countries in Europe do it... govern by referendum...

[Naki Rat]

I have a personal assurance from Chris Hipkins, my local MP and Labour spokesperson for ACC, that they will be removing the ACC component on registration on ALL vehicles.

Bad news = it will have to come from somewhere, and the price of gas will have to go up to cover it.

Sounds like a goer. Bikes use far less fuel than those with more wheels, and you can ride without rego but not without petrol :cool:

[SMOKEU]

I'm not voting National because John Key is a jew.

[dmc]

Sounds like a goer. Bikes use far less fuel than those with more wheels, and you can ride without rego but not without petrol :cool:

I agree, they could put the price of petrol up 10c a litre to cover ACC from rego and I'd still pay less ACC than I do now.

[Robert Taylor]

I agree, they could put the price of petrol up 10c a litre to cover ACC from rego and I'd still pay less ACC than I do now.

I dont like the chances of that with the most recent motorcycle fatalities, its certainly bad pr.

[Katman]

-with respect to ACC levies on motorcyclists many of us are not doing our bit by wearing effective safety gear and being highly visible. Ive always been a little at odds why black is a predominant colour of choice when it is one of the least visible colours????

There'd be no problem with wearing black if the people wearing it trained their eyes to compensate for the lack of seeing in others.

I believe we're within spitting distance of being forced to wear hi-vis. If we are then we only have ourselves to blame.

For years we've taken the easy path of blaming the other person for not seeing us instead of admonishing ourselves for not reading the situation adequately.

[dmc]

There'd be no problem with wearing black if the people wearing it trained their eyes to compensate for the lack of seeing in others.

I believe we're within spitting distance of being forced to wear hi-vis. If we are then we only have ourselves to blame.

For years we've taken the easy path of blaming the other person for not seeing us instead of admonishing ourselves for not reading the situation adequately.

If they can't see a headlight/tail light then a hi-viz aint going to do shit, I could be fluro orange with flashing lights and it wouldn't help one little bit when people just don't bother to look. As you said you have to assume they don't see us and ride accordingly.

[rainman]

No, a supporter of consistency and fairness. Also a proponent of self responsibility instead of looking to the Government for everything.


But are we all not collectively hypocrites?

-we all want to avoid taxes as much as possible

-we all want our goods as cheap as possible but turn a blind eye to the fact many goods are produced with sweatshop labour. And that in turn puts many of our own folk out of work, or has turned them into ''serfs'' working for big box retailers peddling all this stuff.

-with respect to ACC levies on motorcyclists many of us are not doing our bit by wearing effective safety gear and being highly visible. Ive always been a little at odds why black is a predominant colour of choice when it is one of the least visible colours???? Also the scooter fraternity needs a real shake about the casual nature of clothing they wear. If you fall off and are wearing jandals and short sleeves why should you still qualify for ACC?

-we all want high wages and full employment despite the very real inequities of overseas competition and the distortional effects of exchange rate

-we all expect the Government to pick up the pieces despite grizzling about the taxes we pay

And yet so many of us are against offshore ironsand mining and deep sea drilling, commercial operations that if handled properly by any Government would potentially bring a lot of wealth to this country, as have minerals in Australia.
...
So how does all of that work?

Collectively we are also paying dearly for the after effects of a worldwide banking system that was totally out of control, too much easy credit and massively inflated house prices due to huge and un-needed property speculation. Now making housing totally unaffordable / unattainable for most young people trying to get onto the property ladder, that is really sad. Add to that cradle to the grave welfare that ultimately is unsustainable. Look at the Greeks, they have been totally out of control and in a bubble. Now that its proven that their extremely liberal systems are unsustainable they are grizzling big time, morons.

Ultimately no-one wants any pain or a dose of reality. ... Whilst not perfect the National party is the lesser of the main evils ''on offer''

Y'know Mr Taylor I've always held the view that you were a bit of an arse, however I agree with a surprising bit of what you have said above. I draw a different conclusion, also based on a few facts you've left out, and I'd write the history of the last 30 years in a quite different tone - and I certainly disagree with your diagnosis of National as "least worst" - but respect to you for a reasonably clearly articulated set of views.

Agrees:
- Greater self-reliance is generally good, although it won't work for all (e.g. disabled) and we need to be realistic about transition. There is a multi-generational problem to fix and it ain't easy.
- The trap of cheap goods, consequent job losses, and retail serfdom (although we may agree on solutions here, I'd be keen to hear yours). Yes we turn a blind eye to sweatshop labour, and also to the environmental cost of our cheap shiny goods.
- ACC levies and taking greater control of your own safety (but again, short of mandating hi-vis, safety gear etc and being branded as "nanny state" I fail to see an easy solution that works)
- Scooters. Yes, but again how to fix it? You have to treat people based on medical need, otherwise you have an ethical problem. Pay a lower but survivable compo rate to those that were demostrably negligent, rather than unlucky or the victim of others' negligence? Maybe.
- Overseas competition. Although, I suspect we agree only about the problem here.
- Liberal systems are unsustainable. Funny view for you to hold, though?

Disagrees:
- it is Government's job is to pick up the pieces for lots of things: Christchurch, Rena, etc.
- Off-shore oil drilling, until we a) get our shit together and b) actually deliver the supposedly wonderful carbon-capture technologies everyone has been talking abut forever.
- The Nats are good for anything. The best they can be is harmless; but with no plan to fix our real situation other than the brain-dead asset sales idea, they need to be (but won't be) booted out office smart quick. A less radical Labour (not that they ever have been that radical), maybe in coalition with some moderating forces, is honestly the best option for NZ at the moment. We will, I suspect, live to regret our likely choice on the 26th. Our kids certainly will, although maybe they'll be having a great time in Aussie.

Maybes:
- Fairness, a very loaded term
- Consistency, overrated and famously the hobgoblin of small minds
- Mining, OKish but not in national parks, and if the externalities are paid by them that gets the profits..

Stuff not mentioned:
- The mind-blowing stupidity that is a partial sale of our energy assets at this time
- Undoing 30 years of liberalism which has led to the global situation you bemoan above
- Overseas ownership of much of what we need to be more self-reliant
- Lack of an alternative economic driver than primary produce
- Energy depletion, coming, ready or not


That's the entire point of MMP, and if electorate MP's actually, you know, worked for their electorate, it would work much better.

I support MMP (but would like some tweaks to it) but there are circumstances where your logic makes no sense either. I'm in McCully's electorate. Short of putting a whole bunch of ads in the local school newsletters he does absolutely fuck-all for this electorate - though he's utterly and completely useless so it's probably a blessing he doesn't try to be more helpful. He's the worst kind of career politician... yet he is almost guaranteed to win, thanks to the muppetry of the general population here who tend to struggle with anything more complex than "two ticks" voting. As a result, no-one bothers to stand a solid candidate against him, he wins every time, and no-one' best interests are served, except Muppet McCully's.

[Robert Taylor]

Y'know Mr Taylor I've always held the view that you were a bit of an arse, however I agree with a surprising bit of what you have said above. I draw a different conclusion, also based on a few facts you've left out, and I'd write the history of the last 30 years in a quite different tone - and I certainly disagree with your diagnosis of National as "least worst" - but respect to you for a reasonably clearly articulated set of views.

Agrees:
- Greater self-reliance is generally good, although it won't work for all (e.g. disabled) and we need to be realistic about transition. There is a multi-generational problem to fix and it ain't easy.
- The trap of cheap goods, consequent job losses, and retail serfdom (although we may agree on solutions here, I'd be keen to hear yours). Yes we turn a blind eye to sweatshop labour, and also to the environmental cost of our cheap shiny goods.
- ACC levies and taking greater control of your own safety (but again, short of mandating hi-vis, safety gear etc and being branded as "nanny state" I fail to see an easy solution that works)
- Scooters. Yes, but again how to fix it? You have to treat people based on medical need, otherwise you have an ethical problem. Pay a lower but survivable compo rate to those that were demostrably negligent, rather than unlucky or the victim of others' negligence? Maybe.
- Overseas competition. Although, I suspect we agree only about the problem here.
- Liberal systems are unsustainable. Funny view for you to hold, though?

Disagrees:
- it is Government's job is to pick up the pieces for lots of things: Christchurch, Rena, etc.
- Off-shore oil drilling, until we a) get our shit together and b) actually deliver the supposedly wonderful carbon-capture technologies everyone has been talking abut forever.
- The Nats are good for anything. The best they can be is harmless; but with no plan to fix our real situation other than the brain-dead asset sales idea, they need to be (but won't be) booted out office smart quick. A less radical Labour (not that they ever have been that radical), maybe in coalition with some moderating forces, is honestly the best option for NZ at the moment. We will, I suspect, live to regret our likely choice on the 26th. Our kids certainly will, although maybe they'll be having a great time in Aussie.

Maybes:
- Fairness, a very loaded term
- Consistency, overrated and famously the hobgoblin of small minds
- Mining, OKish but not in national parks, and if the externalities are paid by them that gets the profits..

Stuff not mentioned:
- The mind-blowing stupidity that is a partial sale of our energy assets at this time
- Undoing 30 years of liberalism which has led to the global situation you bemoan above
- Overseas ownership of much of what we need to be more self-reliant
- Lack of an alternative economic driver than primary produce
- Energy depletion, coming, ready or not



I support MMP (but would like some tweaks to it) but there are circumstances where your logic makes no sense either. I'm in McCully's electorate. Short of putting a whole bunch of ads in the local school newsletters he does absolutely fuck-all for this electorate - though he's utterly and completely useless so it's probably a blessing he doesn't try to be more helpful. He's the worst kind of career politician... yet he is almost guaranteed to win, thanks to the muppetry of the general population here who tend to struggle with anything more complex than "two ticks" voting. As a result, no-one bothers to stand a solid candidate against him, he wins every time, and no-one' best interests are served, except Muppet McCully's.

Yes a lot of common ground there but different ways of trying to effect solutions. Indeed it aint easy. Im busy working my arse off at present so have little time to articulate a lengthy response. But I think most Kiwis irrespective of preferred ''flavour'' of Government have a sense of fair play and that there should still be a safety net for those who cannot help themselves. If you have a analyse some of my thoughts they are in line with Greens policy but I just couldnt vote for them for many other reasons!

In response to previous posts about ACC and high vis clothing yes agreed its a two way street, make yourself visible but also beware that the other parties may still not have seen you.

[Robert Taylor]

[QUOTE=rainman;QUOTE]<BR><BR>

Yes a lot of common ground there but different ways of&nbsp;trying to effect solutions. Indeed it aint easy.&nbsp;Im busy working my arse off at present so have little time to articulate a lengthy response. But I think most Kiwis irrespective of preferred ''flavour'' of Government have a sense of fair play and that there should still be a safety net for those who cannot help themselves. If you analyse some of my thoughts they are in line with Greens policy but I just couldnt vote for them for many other reasons!<BR><BR>In response to previous posts about ACC and high vis clothing yes agreed its a two way street, make yourself visible but also beware that the other parties may still not have seen you.&nbsp;

[Fatt Max]

I reckon we should bring back Buck....

[Swoop]

Ive always been a little at odds why black is a predominant colour of choice when it is one of the least visible colours????
I have to disagree. Riding a black bike while in black gear and never had an accident, I am looking for a refund on the money I have spent on my ACC.



There is an easier way...

Other small countries in Europe do it... govern by referendum...
But, but.....
That would allow us to slash the quantity of MP's and save a shitload of money. It has been suggested on KB before, but Ferdinand from down at the university student's lounge with the cool pushbike (with the leaky tyre) and dopey unwashed hippy girlfriend says that it's a silly idea... so he should know.

[Robert Taylor]

I have to disagree. Riding a black bike while in black gear and never had an accident, I am looking for a refund on the money I have spent on my ACC.



But, but.....
That would allow us to slash the quantity of MP's and save a shitload of money. It has been suggested on KB before, but Ferdinand from down at the university student's lounge with the cool pushbike (with the leaky tyre) and dopey unwashed hippy girlfriend says that it's a silly idea... so he should know.

Maybe then you are more attentive than most to car drivers that dont see you than many other motorcyclists? But one part of this whole equation is to assume that other road users dont see you, exacerbated by dark colours!

If we talk about ACC refunds Id like a refund for all of the out of work injuries mine and many small business's have subsidised. There is merit in user pays for especially the more dangerous sporting activities

[wingnutt]

hard one really, if there is any justice, I would like to see smith loose his job this election,for his acc debacle, I think
there is a golden oportunity, as riders to tell show our disgust at acc levies by voting anything but national.

but the problem is labour any better, somehow I cant see it, putting acc levies on petrol, is just duck shoving the problem. has Mickey mouse registered as a candidate yet?

[Ocean1]

But one part of this whole equation is to assume that other road users dont see you, exacerbated by dark colours!

Obvious, but maybe wrong.

I've seen research indicating that black is the most visible colour in some conditions. A wide enough range of conditions in fact to make it as much a believable safety choice as dayglo orange.

[dmc]

Maybe we should ban silver car's or make them wear fluro vests too as they can be harder to see than a bike with its lights on and a rider in black ;)

[Robert Taylor]

Maybe we should ban silver car's or make them wear fluro vests too as they can be harder to see than a bike with its lights on and a rider in black ;)

But then the comparitively small size of motorcycles doesnt exactly make them as easy to spot as a car many times wider and longer etc. Thats a stark reality, also the need to treat every other road user as an idiot and to make them aware of your presence. Its easy to blame everything else and much of the blame is justified, but motorcyclists must also themselves do more to cut back the drain on ACC. And all those affected by ACC levies, not just motorcyclists.

[Bad Biker]

I'm pretty sure Labour will NEVER privatise ACC - can't recall them backtracking on the ACC promise, but I have been out of the country.

Need to remember the reason that ACC levies are so high.

Over a 9 year period Labour spent the money and brought new considerations into legislation which has increase coverable injuries.

Things like gravity as an external force i.e. just bending is now an accident and causes an injury.

Labour fiddled the funding accounts by taking money from the residual account, motor vehicle account and non-earners account to prop up the earners account to make the employers levies look good.

This is the reason why ACC was in such debt when National came into power.

You may recall that National has not said they will privatise ACC that is a term that is used by Labour.

National has said they will open ACC up to competition in some of the accounts not in all accounts.

Labour has made a lot of promises which sound good but can’t state where the money will come from which will mean more borrowing and more debt for NZ.

Most of Labours election promises apply only if they are in power for more than 1 term not many apply to their first term if they win. :confused:

[dmc]

But then the comparitively small size of motorcycles doesnt exactly make them as easy to spot as a car many times wider and longer etc. Thats a stark reality, also the need to treat every other road user as an idiot and to make them aware of your presence. Its easy to blame everything else and much of the blame is justified, but motorcyclists must also themselves do more to cut back the drain on ACC. And all those affected by ACC levies, not just motorcyclists.

What I'm saying is a fluro vest isn't going to do fark all compared to fixing driver attitude, I can have a flashing light on my head and people will still not see me and thats not just on a bike, I get carved up in my car far more often than on my bike because sadly people are just stupid.

[spinergy]

With effort I am sure a clever lad like you can figure out how that wealthy 1% can pay enough tax for the rest to survive on with their lazy arses on the couch and their gobs firmly stuck to the welfare tit.
Nice work bundling everyone who isn't the 1% in with people on welfare. I'm not the 1% but I'm sure as shit no bludger. Ten to one says most of us here work hard, pay our taxes and don't expect a hand out from anyone.

[LBD]

Irrespective of which way people will claim to vote before the election, after the election you can ask anyone "Did you vote for the party that got 65% of the votes?"

90% will say no.