Pro-Twin & Prolite Nats (How many!) [Archive]

SWERVE

13th November 2011, 18:57

After the reletivly low entries in Ultralight at the tri-series......... and seeing on Ruapuna RD1 entry form that there must be a minimum of 10 entries for classes to run (was 6 last year)
I am wondering if either of these classes will reach the required numbers at RD1 (other rounds it doesnt matter)
Im sure that once we reach HD & Taupo that the Nth Island riders will swell the ranks....... but HOW MANY are going to be at round 1.

Cmon start naming yourselves..........:Oi:

we will go first SETH DEVEREUX / PROLITE
ANTS SINGER / PROTWIN

others i would say will be at RD1 are( not definate) PROLITE - Angela Charlett - Alex Bowers - Alex Faulkner
PRO TWIN - Cameron Moir - Bryan Hill - Robbie Stokes - Wade van de Arend - Jorden Knowles

discodan

14th November 2011, 09:24

I wonder why has it changed to 10 bikes this year? It sounds like this something MC Canty have decided on but surely MNZ would have to have made the decision.

I hope you get your 10 bikes for both classes Merv but it might be cutting it pretty fine based on last years attendance. Likewise, I'm not confident that there will be 10 SS600 bikes at the first round either.

As a side note, I noticed on the supp regs that the wording for the tyre rules for Pro-Twin and 600 Sports Production (is this Super Stock 600?) are different to what the MNZ rules state. They make it sound like you are only allowed a set number of tyres for the 'round' but in the MNZ rules it is for championship races.

Matchless-G80

14th November 2011, 12:00

ill be there with my brother (pro-lite).. that makes 2 of us... ;)

lostinflyz

14th November 2011, 17:09

i think we can probably add superlite to this list of classes likely to be low on entries.....plus 125's

SWERVE

14th November 2011, 19:20

i think we can probably add superlite to this list of classes likely to be low on entries.....plus 125's

HHmmmmmm..... you could be right with 125s
Think Superlite will be ok as it caters for so many.
Dont know why its been brought up to 10 from 6.
Because protwin race with superlite (meaning a decent field..even if spectators dont know theres two classes)
Prolite race with Streetstock (and nevera shortage of them)
Agree 6 125s might not be the go on a race of their own.

Think Discodan will be OK im sure there are a few 600ss bikes out there.

Hope we get to see Croft v Devereux fighting for a championship................... plus ive sunk a heap of money into Prolite/protwin:(

crazy man

14th November 2011, 19:25

ill be there with my brother (pro-lite).. that makes 2 of us... ;)hope the hot cams work out in your sv ok

Billy

14th November 2011, 19:27

[QUOTE=SWERVE;1130194773
Dont know why its been brought up to 10 from 6.

([/QUOTE]

It hasnt changed at all,Rule 4.10.8 states a minimum of 6 entries,Rule 22.8.2 states a minmum of 10 entries,The board have been queried on this with no change at this date,Dont query the roadrace commission,Its out of our hands and we can do no more!

Kevin G

14th November 2011, 20:15

Nicksta

14th November 2011, 20:28

gosh, 2 conflicting rules.. no wonder i'm confused!

i'll be there for the north island rounds in Pro Twin.....

only stink thing is the rule where you have to have a 2 digit race number!
i've had to lay my beloved 266 to rest for the nats and strip it down to just 26 :(
so no one take my 266 while nats are on.. ok! :bash:

gixerracer

14th November 2011, 21:07

i think we can probably add superlite to this list of classes likely to be low on entries.....plus 125's

Just put them in that post classic class F3 I think it is called

wayne

14th November 2011, 21:57

entries.............. is the wording ,not bikes

Deano

15th November 2011, 07:53

I'll be there in Pro Twins. Doing all the rounds this year.

Billy

15th November 2011, 08:38

The two rules are completely different! one is a must run rule (10 bikes)and the other is the rule for how many bikes are required at close of entries to be eligible to run a championship, (6) nothing to clarify it is how it reads.

Kevin

So,If there are no less than 6 entries recieved before the closing date for round 1 the championship MAY run,BUT the club running each individual round only HAVE to run each class if 10 or more entries are recieved ???

White trash

15th November 2011, 11:11

So,If there are no less than 6 entries recieved before the closing date for round 1 the championship MAY run,BUT the club running each individual round only HAVE to run each class if 10 or more entries are recieved ???

Sweet! I'm entering 10 Yamaha Scorpios in the Scorpio Cup that I just made up. Rules are any mods allowed provided those modifications make the bike slower.

Billy

15th November 2011, 11:13

Rules are any mods allowed provided those modifications make the bike slower.

Err,Is that actually possible????

RobGassit

15th November 2011, 13:19

Sarah Elliot #3 Prolite Nationals.
Sarah would love to run a Protwin too but I've spent all our money on hookers and beer. If anyone out there has a scooter she can borrow with the proviso it is returned in the condition it was given, ( plus a few one lady rider kms) please don't hesitate to give us a shout. Plus you Protwin pilots will have one more entry for your championship!

crazy man

15th November 2011, 17:49

RDjase

15th November 2011, 19:46

HHmmmmmm..... you could be right with 125s
Think Superlite will be ok as it caters for so many.
Dont know why its been brought up to 10 from 6.
Because protwin race with superlite (meaning a decent field..even if spectators dont know theres two classes)
Prolite race with Streetstock (and nevera shortage of them)
Agree 6 125s might not be the go on a race of their own.

Think Discodan will be OK im sure there are a few 600ss bikes out there.

Hope we get to see Croft v Devereux fighting for a championship................... plus ive sunk a heap of money into Prolite/protwin:(

There will be at least 1 SS150 rider from the North Island there too, maybe 2 if I use the spare bike:laugh:

discodan

15th November 2011, 19:54

crazy man

16th November 2011, 09:33

I think it depends more on throwing new tyres at these things and having a good setup. I have a carby SV that isn't worth much more than $5k and it can do 13s round Manfield and capable of winning National races.

But yea, I think the rules are too open for the class as it is. I would prefer all the classes to more restricted to save costs but then again the racers don't make the rules.hi yes you are right ,there are alot of bikes floating around at 4-5 k times have changed 5 years+ ago 10k would of been a cheap bike
and some over 20k bike + all the work done . but we all know a good rider can make others look like fools which have spent heaps on it

Sarah311

17th November 2011, 20:02

quickbuck

18th November 2011, 18:55

steveyb

18th November 2011, 19:09

Sarah Elliot #3 Prolite Nationals. All Rounds.
#31 Protwin nationals. All rounds.
I've had a fabulous offer of a loaner for the Protwins from a fellow racer, so I'll be running rear end sweep for all you rocket pilots up front. Bring it on!

Jeez looeez you are lucky.
Your partner buys you hookers and beer to share and then someone loans you a bike.
Wish I had that kind of sway......

Str8 Jacket

19th November 2011, 07:43

Wish I had that kind of sway......

Stevey - you have a 'different kind' of swing!

SWERVE

20th November 2011, 06:25

Sarah Elliot #3 Prolite Nationals. All Rounds.
#31 Protwin nationals. All rounds.
I've had a fabulous offer of a loaner for the Protwins from a fellow racer, so I'll be running rear end sweep for all you rocket pilots up front. Bring it on!

Good onya Sarah
After much clarification of the rules..... looks like both classes will be good to go. Will see you at HD in a few weeks............have to get some tips from Rob as to best place to purchase.....er.......Beer!

Sarah311

20th November 2011, 19:34

Thanks for the comments and supports, unfortunately the hookers are likely to be exhausted - along with the beers, but the bike should be running!!
Hope to see you all there :eek:

Nicksta

28th November 2011, 20:11

Sarah Elliot #3 Prolite Nationals. All Rounds.
#31 Protwin nationals. All rounds.
I've had a fabulous offer of a loaner for the Protwins from a fellow racer, so I'll be running rear end sweep for all you rocket pilots up front. Bring it on!

AWESOME!!!!

dont worry i'll be there at the NI rounds with you too :) be great to have another chick to battle with!

quallman1234

1st December 2011, 13:22

I hear rumours there might be over 10 riders for 125's...

Robert Taylor

1st December 2011, 17:53

hi yes you are right ,there are alot of bikes floating around at 4-5 k times have changed 5 years+ ago 10k would of been a cheap bike
and some over 20k bike + all the work done . but we all know a good rider can make others look like fools which have spent heaps on it

Ok, what about a good rider on a good bike?????????????????????????????????

Robert Taylor

1st December 2011, 18:49

the one thing l dont like about pro twins is what is spent on these bikes! should be stock with just race fairing! not over 10k spent
on the bike after brought. when tim run these in around 2001 they did 116.5 at manfeild no fairing stock everything. for me its a big put off what
you have to spend to be up the top. young guys dont have the money for a big bike starting of class

That of course is complete and utter bollocks as an argument . This has been well discussed over time and there are solid reasons the rules have been sensibly formulated by a number of people who have thought long and hard and have been around for a long time in this sport.

For one race cans are cheaper to replace or repair when the bikes are crashed, and that would happen rather a lot more if the suspension was only allowed to be completely stock, irrespective that very light and very heavy riders would be especially penalised by the spring rates being far less than ideal for them.

The predominant bike of choice for this class has been the SV650 and the COLD HARD REALITY is they are a commuter bike with very lazy geometry and a stock rear shock absorber that is very ''wooden'' in action. One of the biggest single things with the SV is they need a lot more weight over the front and sharper steering and that is in part achieved by a longer and length adjustable aftermarket shock. Just so these bloody things will steer. And then once you get the weight over the front you have got to stop it blowing through its stroke, which it does so almost uncontrollably because there is next to no low speed compression damping control. So bad even a lot of road riders wont put up with this issue.

Stock they will overstress tyres and crash a lot.

Also aftermarket suspension once purchased has very good residual value to be later onsold. Ask people about this and how they can often be respec'd or traded by those geared up to do so....

Id rather people aspire than espouse that everyone should be at a lower level. With such an attitude we may as well be racing underbone chassis type bikes as they do in third world countries. And to the best of my knowledge NZ voted for the politics of aspiration last Saturday, that doesnt penalise those who are prepared to get ahead.

And who would police the ''stock'' bikes? I suggest you go to a kart meeting and witness all the politics and aggravation that goes on with their ultra controlled classes.

Robert Taylor

1st December 2011, 18:52

I think it depends more on throwing new tyres at these things and having a good setup. I have a carby SV that isn't worth much more than $5k and it can do 13s round Manfield and capable of winning National races.

But yea, I think the rules are too open for the class as it is. I would prefer all the classes to more restricted to save costs but then again the racers don't make the rules.

Nonsense, racers have had a lot of input and many of those in position of responsibility are ex racers that have been around for a very long time.

I think that in the most expensive class ( Superbike ) there are likely going to be 15 bikes on the grid.

crazy man

1st December 2011, 20:04

That of course is complete and utter bollocks as an argument . This has been well discussed over time and there are solid reasons the rules have been sensibly formulated by a number of people who have thought long and hard and have been around for a long time in this sport.

For one race cans are cheaper to replace or repair when the bikes are crashed, and that would happen rather a lot more if the suspension was only allowed to be completely stock, irrespective that very light and very heavy riders would be especially penalised by the spring rates being far less than ideal for them.

The predominant bike of choice for this class has been the SV650 and the COLD HARD REALITY is they are a commuter bike with very lazy geometry and a stock rear shock absorber that is very ''wooden'' in action. One of the biggest single things with the SV is they need a lot more weight over the front and sharper steering and that is in part achieved by a longer and length adjustable aftermarket shock. Just so these bloody things will steer. And then once you get the weight over the front you have got to stop it blowing through its stroke, which it does so almost uncontrollably because there is next to no low speed compression damping control. So bad even a lot of road riders wont put up with this issue.

Stock they will overstress tyres and crash a lot.

Also aftermarket suspension once purchased has very good residual value to be later onsold. Ask people about this and how they can often be respec'd or traded by those geared up to do so....

Id rather people aspire than espouse that everyone should be at a lower level. With such an attitude we may as well be racing underbone chassis type bikes as they do in third world countries. And to the best of my knowledge NZ voted for the politics of aspiration last Saturday, that doesnt penalise those who are prepared to get ahead.

And who would police the ''stock'' bikes? I suggest you go to a kart meeting and witness all the politics and aggravation that goes on with their ultra controlled classes.A... tim gibbs meeting l never saw one crash B... they were stock and on controlled tires. best time at mainfeild in the winter 16.5 times l see at mainfeild 11 years laster 1.15 . back then the class was taking of now lucky to get 6 out there now. l never saw tires wereing out on the low powered bikes

Robert Taylor

1st December 2011, 20:26

A... tim gibbs meeting l never saw one crash B... they were stock and on controlled tires. best time at mainfeild in the winter 16.5 times l see at mainfeild 11 years laster 1.15 . back then the class was taking of now lucky to get 6 out there now. l never saw tires wereing out on the low powered bikes

You need to research the times more thoroughly. Wooden tires will not wear out as fast and in the more serious environment of summer racing there would be lots of crashing. This is a spurios defence of your argument

scracha

1st December 2011, 20:35

Nonsense, racers have had a lot of input and many of those in position of responsibility are ex racers that have been around for a very long time.

I think that in the most expensive class ( Superbike ) there are likely going to be 15 bikes on the grid.

Think he was maybe referring to engine mods....you know...when supposed Pro Twins spec SV's bikes clealry have quite a bit more squirt than F3 spec SV's.

crazy man

1st December 2011, 20:46

You need to research the times more thoroughly. Wooden tires will not wear out as fast and in the more serious environment of summer racing there would be lots of crashing. This is a spurios defence of your argumentyou have to be nice to me its my birthday tomorrow:innocent:

Shorty_925

1st December 2011, 20:49

The predominant bike of choice for this class has been the SV650 and the COLD HARD REALITY is they are a commuter bike with very lazy geometry and a stock rear shock absorber that is very ''wooden'' in action. One of the biggest single things with the SV is they need a lot more weight over the front and sharper steering and that is in part achieved by a longer and length adjustable aftermarket shock. Just so these bloody things will steer. And then once you get the weight over the front you have got to stop it blowing through its stroke, which it does so almost uncontrollably because there is next to no low speed compression damping control. So bad even a lot of road riders wont put up with this issue.

Stock they will overstress tyres and crash a lot.

Can you explain further what you mean about "wooden" in action?

Agree with the overstress the tyres, on a standard SV it took me 10-11 laps (at the 1 hour held at Taupo a few weeks back) before the tyres started sliding too much and had to back the pace down.

Which is the best value up front first off, springs or emulators?

Robert Taylor

1st December 2011, 21:22

you have to be nice to me its my birthday tomorrow:innocent:

It was mine on Sunday but I still had to work my butt off!

Robert Taylor

1st December 2011, 21:26

Can you explain further what you mean about "wooden" in action?

Agree with the overstress the tyres, on a standard SV it took me 10-11 laps (at the 1 hour held at Taupo a few weeks back) before the tyres started sliding too much and had to back the pace down.

Which is the best value up front first off, springs or emulators?

Dead, non responsive.

With that wobbly jelly front end its about half in half. Certainly the springs need to be correct for the rider but they lack so much low speed damping ( there basically is none ) Race Tech emulators are also required. But we just dont take them out of the packet and chuck in, we modify those as well.

Robert Taylor

1st December 2011, 21:29

Think he was maybe referring to engine mods....you know...when supposed Pro Twins spec SV's bikes clealry have quite a bit more squirt than F3 spec SV's.

I think that also depends in part because there are ( inarguably ) a lot of slow F3 bikes out there and the very fastest ProTwins ( Johnie Small, Geoff Booth ) are on topiof their game in keeping their motors up to speed within the rules. Its also about setup, how early the rider rolls on the throttle and how late he brakes. Of course you will have higher trap speeds if you open the throttle off the turns earlier and hold it on longer......

Shorty_925

2nd December 2011, 08:08

Dead, non responsive.

With that wobbly jelly front end its about half in half. Certainly the springs need to be correct for the rider but they lack so much low speed damping ( there basically is none ) Race Tech emulators are also required. But we just dont take them out of the packet and chuck in, we modify those as well.

It is responsive, just not in a way a shock should work! :yes: more the way a pogo stick works!

Thanks for the advice with the front-end.

discodan

2nd December 2011, 14:32

Nonsense, racers have had a lot of input and many of those in position of responsibility are ex racers that have been around for a very long time.

I think that in the most expensive class ( Superbike ) there are likely going to be 15 bikes on the grid.

Nonsense, I have emailed the commission and MNZ and never received a reply. I was at a riders forum where a room full of racers and supporters who pay the bills that keep you in business were voicing ideas about the future of Road Racing - I don't know of any of those suggestions that have been taken on board for next years nationals.

And as for the costs of the Pro-Twin class, you can do it on the cheap, which I have done but if you want to win you have to spend twice as much to be competitive with the top bikes. I spent thousands on suspension only to have tyres sometimes get shredded in a single session. In fact, after buying an Ohlins shock, you later told me that the only way I could go faster and catch the guys in front of me is if I bought a newer TTX shock - how is this encouraging riders into the class!

I started racing an SV with bog stock suspension and I didn't crash, my tyres lasted longer but I was a bit slower... so what?!

Rant over.

PS Happy birthday Scott, Robert :sunny:

lostinflyz

2nd December 2011, 16:15

Nonsense, I have emailed the commission and MNZ and never received a reply. I was at a riders forum where a room full of racers and supporters who pay the bills that keep you in business were voicing ideas about the future of Road Racing - I don't know of any of those suggestions that have been taken on board for next years nationals.

And as for the costs of the Pro-Twin class, you can do it on the cheap, which I have done but if you want to win you have to spend twice as much to be competitive with the top bikes. I spent thousands on suspension only to have tyres sometimes get shredded in a single session. In fact, after buying an Ohlins shock, you later told me that the only way I could go faster and catch the guys in front of me is if I bought a newer TTX shock - how is this encouraging riders into the class!

I started racing an SV with bog stock suspension and I didn't crash, my tyres lasted longer but I was a bit slower... so what?!

Rant over.

PS Happy birthday Scott, Robert :sunny:

the question is are you just going round in circles, or are you racing.....

the most expensive part of racing is travel and consumables, by far......the shiny stuff costs alot less than that stuff in the long run.

as for racers input, its almost entirely run by racers but everyones got a different view.

jellywrestler

2nd December 2011, 17:05

This is a spurios defence of your argument
Isn't SPURIOUS a disease a woman gets in her stench trench?

Robert Taylor

2nd December 2011, 18:07

Isn't SPURIOUS a disease a woman gets in her stench trench?

Maybe with the ones in your social circle!

Robert Taylor

2nd December 2011, 18:14

Nonsense, I have emailed the commission and MNZ and never received a reply. I was at a riders forum where a room full of racers and supporters who pay the bills that keep you in business were voicing ideas about the future of Road Racing - I don't know of any of those suggestions that have been taken on board for next years nationals.

And as for the costs of the Pro-Twin class, you can do it on the cheap, which I have done but if you want to win you have to spend twice as much to be competitive with the top bikes. I spent thousands on suspension only to have tyres sometimes get shredded in a single session. In fact, after buying an Ohlins shock, you later told me that the only way I could go faster and catch the guys in front of me is if I bought a newer TTX shock - how is this encouraging riders into the class!

I started racing an SV with bog stock suspension and I didn't crash, my tyres lasted longer but I was a bit slower... so what?!

Rant over.

PS Happy birthday Scott, Robert :sunny:

You have moved from this Pro Twins class that you decry as too expensive. Now that you are in Superstock 600 you are decrying the cost of that as well. If you move to Supersport 600 or Superbike will you also decry the cost of that and expect the rules to be bastardised to suit your budget?
What amazes me in this country is the third world attitudes in some circles, we are not the third world ,yet. Nationals racing is not or should not be club level racing. Also in terms of goodwill riders dont realise how lucky they have got it in this country. I suggest you go overseas to a few AMA meetings or similiar ( even Ozzie racing ) and evidence the ''cost of service'' etc.

wharfy

2nd December 2011, 19:15

the question is are you just going round in circles, or are you racing.....

the most expensive part of racing is travel and consumables, by far......the shiny stuff costs alot less than that stuff in the long run.

as for racers input, its almost entirely run by racers but everyones got a different view.

I just go round in circle - but Dan definitely RACES !!!

SWERVE

2nd December 2011, 20:19

What amazes me in this country is the third world attitudes in some circles, we are not the third world ,yet. Nationals racing is not or should not be club level racing. Also in terms of goodwill riders dont realise how lucky they have got it in this country. I suggest you go overseas to a few AMA meetings or similiar ( even Ozzie racing ) and evidence the ''cost of service'' etc.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely!
I gave up racing many years ago in the UK cos i couldnt even afford club racing (and i earnt more than i currently do) I could barely afford to travel and spectate (so i became crew)
Racing at club level in NZ can be cheap and lots of fun.... coupled with lots of tracktime/meetings ( at least down here in the south)
However if you want to win or compete at the top (especially national level) it aint cheap......never will be.
If you want a cheap hobby.....DONT get into competitive motorsport of any kind........ even in NZ.

discodan

2nd December 2011, 20:38

Absolutely!
I gave up racing many years ago in the UK cos i couldnt even afford club racing (and i earnt more than i currently do) I could barely afford to travel and spectate (so i became crew)
Racing at club level in NZ can be cheap and lots of fun.... coupled with lots of tracktime/meetings ( at least down here in the south)
However if you want to win or compete at the top (especially national level) it aint cheap......never will be.
If you want a cheap hobby.....DONT get into competitive motorsport of any kind........ even in NZ.

Merv, didn't Anthony go quicker on the ZX10 shock than the Ohlins one?

I'm not saying racing should be cheap, just that it shouldn't be more expensive than it need be.

SWERVE

2nd December 2011, 21:25

Merv, didn't Anthony go quicker on the ZX10 shock than the Ohlins one?

I'm not saying racing should be cheap, just that it shouldn't be more expensive than it need be.

Yep..... but he had he zx10 shock wound to the max... and it was starting to destroy tyres. Has gone quicker on the ohlins since.... and we have loads of adjustment left to play with.
The zx shock worked really well at levels and in the wet....... probebly luck.
Last years performance was not the fault of bike it was definately the rider.
I have nothing but praise for Ohlins /CKT there product is superb... it is competitively priced..... and their service is un-questionable.
Not licking arse.....just expressing thanks for the service i have recieved personally.
Only other company in that business that i have had similar customer service is Maxton in the UK.

I believe a talented rider on an OK bike will beat an OK rider on a well set up bike......... so yes some dont need to spend as much to achieve the same......... You probebly gonna be racing in the toughest classs this year....with a very high talent level...GOOD LUCK.