We are the prey of the "I did not see you" and this will never change

[Conquiztador]

If I ever want to kill someone I will just grab a SUV and wait somewhere I know they go past on regular basis. Then I simply just drive out in front of them and claim I did not see them. I mean, $4,500 is probably approx $95,500 less than a hitman would charge me.

"Auckland local body politician Warren Flaunty did not see an oncoming motorcycle when the vehicle he was driving made a right turn and collided with it, throwing the rider into the path of a four-wheel drive, court documents show.Blair Lindsay Titmus, 34, died at the scene of the crash on Hobsonville Rd, west Auckland in April this year.
Flaunty has pleaded guilty to a charge of careless driving causing death, the maximum penalty for which is three months in prison or a $4500 fine.
The police summary of facts, released to APNZ today, says the weather was fine and dry on the afternoon of Saturday, April 2, and there was heavy traffic on the road in both directions.
Mr Titmus was travelling east on his recently rebuilt Moto Guzzi motorcycle towards Clarks Lane, where Flaunty had stopped at the T intersection, waiting to turn right onto Hobsonville Rd.
Flaunty told police he had waited for three or four cars to pass and was careful that it was clear before he made the turn.
<SCRIPT language=javascript type=text/javascript>aimRenderAd(300, 250, 'RECTANGLE','ContentRect','/SR=1/POS=2');if(!$.browser.msie){ContentRect_frame = $("#ContentRect")[0];ContentRect_frame.src = ContentRect_frame.src;}</SCRIPT>
"I looked to my left as I pulled out from the compulsory stop to ensure that I could merge with the oncoming traffic. I was three quarters of the way across I think and I just heard this crash and it was the motor bike," he is quoted in the summary of facts as saying.
Mr Titmus was thrown from his motorcycle and came into contact with a west-bound Nissan Patrol vehicle.
Flaunty said he did not see the motorcycle when he looked to his right before proceeding.
"It can be fairly concluded that neither driver saw the other as they converged, and that the view of both was obscured, probably by the presence of another vehicle."
A police crash investigator and an independent investigator agreed that there was insufficient reliable evidence to establish how fast the motorcycle was travelling.
Flaunty has been a businessman and pharmacist for 40 years.
He is an elected member of Auckland Council's local boards for Rodney, Upper Harbour and Henderson. He also sits on the Waitemata District Health Board and the Waitakere Licensing Trust.
Outside court last week, he said it was not his intention to step down from these positions.
"I will remain in these positions for the next two years, and it will be up to the people to decide whether they want me there after that."
Flaunty has been directed to attend a restorative justice conference before he is sentenced in March next year.
- APNZ (http://www.apnz.co.nz/)

[Edbear]

It's not just motorcycles, people are constantly pulling out in front of all manner of vehicles, especially trucks! (I drove trucks for many years). However it is the vulnerability of bike riders that makes it so deadly. Bikes can be hidden by mirrors, door pillars, the driver's hand if he's shielding his eyes from the sun, or pretty much anything bigger than a matchbox.

Having a sizeable cruiser with three headlights plus running lights certainly minimized the chance of being missed, but I still had close calls as many drivers also lack the ability to judge the speed of oncoming vehicles.

[Tigadee]

Assuming the rider is cautious and safety-aware, is there a higher safety factor for upright riders as opposed to lower-seated (cruisers) or bent-over (sports) riders? i.e. those sitting more upright and higher can view the traffic ahead better and pinpoint potential dangers.

Would a high-vis vest in this case have helped? Or was the Moto Guzzi a low bike, or too small to be easily visible or too fast?

[c4.]

RIP Blair, miss ya buddy:(:(:(

[TIBLE_90]

This exact thing happened to me when I was 18. Car pulled out as I was riding by and T-boned me. I wasn't wearing protective pants at the time and had to spend 6 days in the hospital as a result. This was in a 50 zone and i was on a 250. My bike was totaled and I had a broken thumb and a fucked up leg. Luckily there was no oncoming traffic at the time because i was thrown into the oncoming lane. If there would have been an SUV as was in the above case I am sure I would have suffered the same fate. 3 months in prison or a $4,500 fine seems to me to be an unjust punishment for manslaughter. How is the value of another persons life only $4,500....There needs to be some serious reform to laws regarding murder and manslaughter in New Zealand.

[oneofsix]

Roads are dangerous places. Shit happens. Without all the facts a circumstances perhaps labelling a crash manslaughter is too harsh. Some times with the best of intentions/actions shit is unavoidable, though others have well documented contrary opinions on this which would land part of the blame on the rider and are are in some aspects correct, just too inflexible for my taste.

[avgas]

What pisses me off is the council sod won't step down.
How am I going to train my boy about responsible leadership with a local council of fucking vikings.

[PeteMun]

I was out for a run maybe 5-6 months ago staring at a bike go past when I had a feeling a car at the intersection was going to pull out. He locked up (had no choice i think) and slamed into the drivers side of the car. The girl driving said she thought his headlight was a bloody street light !

:angry:

[SMOKEU]

Remember that dude in the news a while ago who accidentally shot that school teacher and killed her with a rifle after he mistook her for a deer? Why is being careless causing death with a firearm more serious than causing death by motor vehicle?

I'm sure that neither the hunter, nor the driver intended to kill anyone, but they were both negligent, and people had to die as a consequence.

[oneofsix]

Remember that dude in the news a while ago who accidentally shot that school teacher and killed her with a rifle after he mistook her for a deer? Why is being careless causing death with a firearm more serious than causing death by motor vehicle?

I'm sure that neither the hunter, nor the driver intended to kill anyone, but they were both negligent, and people had to die as a consequence.

Because his actions were careless and stupid where as the driver, according to the report, tried to be careful and fucked up. Now if you were to compare a shooter, in the bush that shot at a deer only to discover later that said deer was being carried by another hunter then you have a closer fit. Comparing a hunter shooting at movement is closer to what usually happens on the roads.

[FROSTY]

THIS accident is still on my mind constantly because the person involved was a freind of many years.
But I have to go back to what Ive been saying all along.
car/truck/bus drivers aren't out to get us.We are not their prey. They just mostly don't care.

On that basis we unfortunately have to accept TOTAL responsibility for our own lives.
To clarify I'm not talking about the after the fact fallout. I'm talking about the riding attitude that "they NEVER look" they WILL pull out in front of me" "they WON'T stop at that stop sighn"
By riding with that attitude WE are doing all we can to save our own lives.

Would that have saved Blair's life that day? Knowing his attitude to riding and how he rode I can honestly say NO it diddn't.
I DO know though that there are countless times before hand that it DID save his life. Including an eerily similar incident on the same road a few years earlier.

[Muppet]

FYI yesterday in the Garden City two people cut me off, where I had to brake to avoid a collision. Those two people are now $150 poorer.:Police:

[SMOKEU]

FYI yesterday in the Garden City two people cut me off, where I had to brake to avoid a collision. Those two people are now $150 poorer.:Police:

What are you, a cop?

[oneofsix]

THIS accident is still on my mind constantly because the person involved was a freind of many years.
But I have to go back to what Ive been saying all along.
car/truck/bus drivers aren't out to get us.We are not their prey. They just mostly don't care.

On that basis we unfortunately have to accept TOTAL responsibility for our own lives.
To clarify I'm not talking about the after the fact fallout. I'm talking about the riding attitude that "they NEVER look" they WILL pull out in front of me" "they WON'T stop at that stop sighn"
By riding with that attitude WE are doing all we can to save our own lives.

Would that have saved Blair's life that day? Knowing his attitude to riding and how he rode I can honestly say NO it diddn't.
I DO know though that there are countless times before hand that it DID save his life. Including an eerily similar incident on the same road a few years earlier.

Now that I can relate to. Yes we have to ride with that attitude but, sadly, it will not always save us. Hence why I think it wrong to "blame the biker". We need to work to change the attitude or whatever it is of other road users (good job Muppet) but also remember there will always be those that will not see us.

[steve_t]

Again, I refer to the video where you count basketball passes and demonstrate "inattentional blindness" with regards to the dude in the gorilla suit.
People 'look' to see the way is clear but if they're only looking for cars and trucks etc, they won't see a biker or cyclist.
That campaign "Look for bikes" was a good start. A shame they got rid of it. Was it not getting any results?

[MIXONE]

What are you, a cop?

No a specialist in forcibly removing wing mirrors...

[Kermit250]

No a specialist in forcibly removing wing mirrors...

:laugh: LOL, love it. Good man!

[Tigadee]

FYI yesterday in the Garden City two people cut me off, where I had to brake to avoid a collision. Those two people are now $150 poorer.

150 poorer is still better than a 'devastating' 4,500 fine for offing you, aye? :laugh:

[Conquiztador]

Assuming the rider is cautious and safety-aware, is there a higher safety factor for upright riders as opposed to lower-seated (cruisers) or bent-over (sports) riders? i.e. those sitting more upright and higher can view the traffic ahead better and pinpoint potential dangers.

Would a high-vis vest in this case have helped? Or was the Moto Guzzi a low bike, or too small to be easily visible or too fast?

I was trying when I did read this. I really did. But sadly I must admit that you failed.

Try this:


Assuming the driver is cautious and safety-aware, is there a higher safety factor for small car drivers as opposed to SUV's (tanks) or expensive cars with all the safety giszmos (executive) drivers? i.e. those having cars with less protection and a higher risk of self being injured in the traffic making them more interested in the traffic ahead and pinpointing potential dangers.

Would a flashing light on the roof once he pushed the accelerator in this case have helped? Or was his car one with poor view from inside, or was his brain too small to be easily usable or did he come too fast?

[Conquiztador]

Roads are dangerous places. Shit happens. Without all the facts a circumstances perhaps labelling a crash manslaughter is too harsh. Some times with the best of intentions/actions shit is unavoidable, though others have well documented contrary opinions on this which would land part of the blame on the rider and are are in some aspects correct, just too inflexible for my taste.

And while I am on a roll:

Roads are dangerous places. Shit happens. Without all the facts and circumstances perhaps labelling a manslaughter a crash is not hard enough. Some times with the best of intentions/actions shit is avoidable, though others have well documented contrary opinions on this which would take any part of the blame from the rider and are are in some aspects correct, just too pc and easy way out for my taste.

[gatch]

If his view was obstructed by another vehicle, that means the driver must have been uncertain as to whether to proceed or not. If you are uncertain about the safety of a situation, do you just bumble on into it ? Evidently, yes, just put your head down and forget reason.

Some irony. I am meant to be a professional fixer of things. If I "don't see something wrong" when I'm doing a crane service or repair job. And this unseen thing breaks down, causing a tonne of steel to drop on someone and it kills them. I am in serious shit. I may never work in the engineering field again. My company is in serious financial shit. I would probably go to prison. I'd have to come up with some serious answers to a lot of angry people. There would be reviews of work practices, site procedures, safety laws, compliance standards etc. It would have THUNDERING repercussions. It's not just a "oh that's life" situation.

But when some shit like this happens on the road (regardless if it's a dead biker or car driver or cyclist), it's just another road incident. "Oh sorry I didn't see him". His word against the dead guys. FUCK ! BULLSHIT YOU CUNT, you didn't look, you were thinking about getting home 4 minutes later than normal, about how the wife was going to be pissed again cause your dinner got cold. Or why he didn't have enough time to walk the dog. AHHHHHHHHHHH

Ok, sorry about the rant. I know I am preaching to the choir.

It's just so maddening when you are out on the road and you are following peoples eyes to see if they look or not (usually not), then inevitably pull out into your space, then give you shit for being there. Every single time that happens, it could have been your life. And it happens so often. SO often.

I didn't see him.

RIP biker dude.

[Tigadee]

Assuming the driver is cautious and safety-aware, is there a higher safety factor for small car drivers as opposed to SUV's (tanks) or expensive cars with all the safety giszmos (executive) drivers? i.e. those having cars with less protection and a higher risk of self being injured in the traffic making them more interested in the traffic ahead and pinpointing potential dangers.

I think the car equivalent of my question is more accurately the opposite of what you stated: Upright rider = SUV with a higher view of the environment/road situation.


Would a flashing light on the roof once he pushed the accelerator in this case have helped? Or was his car one with poor view from inside, or was his brain too small to be easily usable or did he come too fast?

Again, my version is more like: Would a yellow/neon victim's SUV or 4x4 be more visible than a Ferrari? Was the victim's vehicle a low car that it was obstructed by another vehicle in front of it from the view of the errant driver? Or was the victim's car a small one that it was obstructed by another vehicle in front of it? (I am unfamiliar with moto Guzzis so I don't know if the rider's bike is a tall or low one...)

Granted, we all don't want to drive only yellow Ferraris or SUVs, but in our case as motorbikers, I just want to know if the high-vis vest really, really helps (is noticed and would have a made a difference in this situation)... I see so many bikers just wearing their black jackets and pants, sans high-vis vest, so does that mean it's ineffective and that's why so many don't bother?

[nudemetalz]

What annoys me is how the pr1ck is more concerned with keeping his 3 positions in council than the rider's life.
"Flaunty has been a businessman and pharmacist for 40 years"
What relevance does that have?
All of a sudden we're supposed to respect him?

RIP fellow Guzzi dude. :(

[Gremlin]

Having a sizeable cruiser with three headlights plus running lights certainly minimized the chance of being missed,
I thought that would be the case with my BMW, 2 spots on low plus bright main beam and the bike is massive... Turning right through a traffic light controlled intersection a car turning left into the same street from a Give Way simply failed to Give Way. They stopped, looked for oncoming vehicles (I was half way through the intersection - middle of the day, sunny btw) then pulled out as I was almost on top of them. Hauled the bike up (ABS and linked brakes are useful) then sat on my horn.

Some people really shouldn't be allowed on the roads was all I could conclude. :no:

[Katman]

Hence why I think it wrong to "blame the biker".

You're still too hung up on this word 'blame'.

The need for all of us to accept 'responsibility' for our well being doesn't mean we necessarily have to accept 'blame'.

[oneofsix]

You're still too hung up on this word 'blame'.

The need for all of us to accept 'responsibility' for our well being doesn't mean we necessarily have to accept 'blame'.

not the word, it's the attitude when you expect the biker to take "responsibly" for others mistakes you are effectively blaming them.

BTW Happy Birthday (wrong thread but what heck)

[Katman]

not the word, it's the attitude when you expect the biker to take "responsibly" for others mistakes you are effectively blaming them.



I'm not expecting motorcyclists to take 'responsibility' for others mistakes.

But if there's the slightest chance of them having failed to notice something that could have resulted in an accident avoided, then they certainly need to take responsibility for that.

[Katman]

Only when "Fuck it, I should have noticed........." replaces "Waahhh, they didn't see me" as our focus on motorcycle accidents, will we see any real improvement in our stats.

[pritch]

II just want to know if the high-vis vest really, really helps (is noticed and would have a made a difference in this situation)... I see so many bikers just wearing their black jackets and pants, sans high-vis vest, so does that mean it's ineffective and that's why so many don't bother?

There has been research into this and I would expect a Google search could find some of it it. On the other hand there are also previous threads here on the topic.

Wear your hi-viz if you think it'll help, but it wouldn't pay to rely on it.

[RDJ]

You're still too hung up on this word 'blame'.

The need for all of us to accept 'responsibility' for our well being doesn't mean we necessarily have to accept 'blame'.

The need for all of us to share the road with other 'users' doesn't necessarily mean we are 'responsible' when they 'are not'.

[shrub]

It's not just motorcycles, people are constantly pulling out in front of all manner of vehicles, especially trucks! (I drove trucks for many years). However it is the vulnerability of bike riders that makes it so deadly. Bikes can be hidden by mirrors, door pillars, the driver's hand if he's shielding his eyes from the sun, or pretty much anything bigger than a matchbox.

Having a sizeable cruiser with three headlights plus running lights certainly minimized the chance of being missed, but I still had close calls as many drivers also lack the ability to judge the speed of oncoming vehicles.

The thing to remember is that people in cars don't take driving seriously. They don't realise that piloting 1 tonne of steel and glass at 15 - 30 m per second in crowded conditions takes skill and concentration. They are comfortable, relaxed and enjoying the music, conversation or that tasty pie they just bought. Or they're more interested in what's for dinner or their GST returns than driving, so they don't pay attention and people get killed and injured.

[willytheekid]

So sad to read/hear of another biker down :(

condolences to his family and friends (Frosty...Im so sorry about the lose of your mate)

R.I.P, ride in paradise Blair, Get that Guzzi roaring up to the gates mate :love:

[Edbear]

I thought that would be the case with my BMW, 2 spots on low plus bright main beam and the bike is massive... Turning right through a traffic light controlled intersection a car turning left into the same street from a Give Way simply failed to Give Way. They stopped, looked for oncoming vehicles (I was half way through the intersection - middle of the day, sunny btw) then pulled out as I was almost on top of them. Hauled the bike up (ABS and linked brakes are useful) then sat on my horn.

Some people really shouldn't be allowed on the roads was all I could conclude. :no:


The thing to remember is that people in cars don't take driving seriously. They don't realise that piloting 1 tonne of steel and glass at 15 - 30 m per second in crowded conditions takes skill and concentration. They are comfortable, relaxed and enjoying the music, conversation or that tasty pie they just bought. Or they're more interested in what's for dinner or their GST returns than driving, so they don't pay attention and people get killed and injured.

Yup! <_< .......

[Muppet]

What are you, a cop?

Mate of mine is in the force:Police:, gave me a ticket book and his badge number. I just write down the rego, time and place etc and he fills in the rest. "Safer communities together" and all that.:msn-wink:

[Genie]

I've not read any of this thread beyond the original post...

Any unforseen death is sad and tragic and no matter how the death occured it should never be trivilsed.


Today, I almost collided with a cute little red sports car, and why? Because I didn't see it. Why did I not see it? I have no idea, but thankfully at the last minute it was within my vision.

It happens...just because he's a politician means nawt...being a motorcycle means nowt. It happens, every day in cities all over the world people just don't see stuff.

Why? God's big plan? Who knows but one thing I do know, is that we have no right to judge another for we are human and we fuck it up more than once in our lives. The thing to learn from this is not to rise to anger but to raise our awareness for ourselves and appreciate what you have, where you're at, for you to may not see something tomorrow.

[FROSTY]

Hey folks. Im reading the vitorol here coming from both points of view. Please before commenting on THIS SPECIFIC CASE go to the crash site yourselves or at least google it or try looking it up on wises. It is/was an utter prick of a corner/intersection. It is/was ALWAYS a blind corner for those on the main road and is/was ALWAYS a reallly difficult road to pull out of due to the self same visibility issue.
Now its become a bit of a backwater rather than the main arterial route it was when Blair was killed.
Im not defending the driver in any way. but it really was an accident waiting to happen. I'd actually be interested in how many injury accidents happened at that self same spot.

Now Generically guys again Just think a bit about this rather than all the bluster and bravado.
Why should we ride like cagers are blind idiots?
the answer is REALLY simple.
FUCK THEM--I WANT TO GO HOME TO MY WIFE AND KIDS TONIGHT.
So if I have to ride in a way that saves MY life then I'm gonna do just that.
If It means I'm "allowing" cagers to drive like idiots. Hey I'm gonna live with that because I'm alive and unhurt.

[baptist]

I've not read any of this thread beyond the original post...

Any unforseen death is sad and tragic and no more matter how the death occured it should never be trivilsed.


Today, I almost collided with a cute little red sports car, and why? Because I didn't see it. Why did I not see it? I have no idea, but thankfully at the last minute it was within my vision.

It happens...just because he's a politician means nawt...being a motorcycle means nowt. It happens, every day in cities all over the world people just don't see stuff.

Why? God's big plan? Who knows but one thing I do know, is that we have no right to judge another for we are human and we fuck it up more than once in our lives. The thing to learn from this is not to rise to anger but to raise our awareness for ourselves and appreciate what you have, where you're at, for you to may not see something tomorrow.


Hey folks. Im reading the vitorol here coming from both points of view. Please before commenting on THIS SPECIFIC CASE go to the crash site yourselves or at least google it or try looking it up on wises. It is/was an utter prick of a corner/intersection. It is/was ALWAYS a blind corner for those on the main road and is/was ALWAYS a reallly difficult road to pull out of due to the self same visibility issue.
Now its become a bit of a backwater rather than the main arterial route it was when Blair was killed.
Im not defending the driver in any way. but it really was an accident waiting to happen. I'd actually be interested in how many injury accidents happened at that self same spot.

Now Generically guys again Just think a bit about this rather than all the bluster and bravado.
Why should we ride like cagers are blind idiots?
the answer is REALLY simple.
FUCK THEM--I WANT TO GO HOME TO MY WIFE AND KIDS TONIGHT.
So if I have to ride in a way that saves MY life then I'm gonna do just that.
If It means I'm "allowing" cagers to drive like idiots. Hey I'm gonna live with that because I'm alive and unhurt.

Amen to that...

[bsasuper]

Me and a mate were out riding , car turned right almost taking out me mate.He spun around and followed car into carpark.Driver got out and "sorry didnt see you".Mate then droped trousers and pissed over car and "sorry didnt see your car there".Funny thing was the stunned bloke said "your standing right in front of it"

[Muppet]

Me and a mate were out riding , car turned right almost taking out me mate.He spun around and followed car into carpark.Driver got out and "sorry didnt see you".Mate then droped trousers and pissed over car and "sorry didnt see your car there".Funny thing was the stunned bloke said "your standing right in front of it"

That is funny.

[Ender EnZed]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/6926674/Flaunty-fined-20k-over-motorcycle-death

[Tigadee]

20k reparation?! Just 20k?!

And there's only one side of the story we're hearing - the defendant's. How do we know that that's truth - that he'd stopped at the stop sign and that he'd looked before moving?

[oneofsix]

20k reparation?! Just 20k?!

And there's only one side of the story we're hearing - the defendant's. How do we know that that's truth - that he'd stopped at the stop sign and that he'd looked before moving?

How do we know it's the truth, umm lets see;

from his lawyer;

His view of the on-coming traffic was obscured by long grass on the road-side and there was "a possibility" that Titmus had accelerated once he saw Flaunty moving out into the intersection, he said.
I really like the blame the victim bit. Stop in a position where you can see the way is clear and ensure it is, don't blame the grass.


If a conviction was entered, Flaunty would be forced to resign from sitting on the Health Practitioners Disciplinary Tribunal.

She rejected his application for a discharge without conviction saying his seat on the Health Practitioners Disciplinary Tribunal was part time and he would be able to serve the community in other ways.
What was his real concern, the victim or his ego?


Judge Sinclair read a list of mayors, chief executives, politicians and community leaders who had provided her with glowing references for Flaunty.
Well I do so hope Mr Flaunty is so upset that he has talked to all his mayoral friends about maintaining clear views at intersections.

[Tigadee]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJBjUuKuPyo&feature=related

[mike n]

Here in the U.S. its even worse...Bikers die here most every day and its just an accident... So people ride like your life depended on it cuz it does...

[stevensaaron]

I had a brand new Hyosung GV250, which was an awesome bike, i did a lot of long distance riding on that, the longest trip was from Hamilton - Kerikeri, and also another trip from hamilton - Hastings...I had lots of fun on that, but that came to an untimely death, and also it was my only ever serious accident, when in August 31 2010, a car didn't give way to me & turned into a side road, right infront of me, and i t-boned the car doing about 65Km/Hr, which i blacked out when my bike hit the car, i flew over the car and then i woke up facedown on the road, which was about 9-10 metres away from where i hit the car, thankfully i wasn't seriously hurt, (I can still say i have never had a broken bone), i got a gash on my left knee, and also pulled the Crutia ligaments on both my knees, my left being the worst. so about 2 months after that, i bought a car, but i am very keen to get another bike, when i can save up enough money :)

[haydes55]

I had a brand new Hyosung GV250, which was an awesome bike, i did a lot of long distance riding on that, the longest trip was from Hamilton - Kerikeri, and also another trip from hamilton - Hastings...I had lots of fun on that, but that came to an untimely death, and also it was my only ever serious accident, when in August 31 2010, a car didn't give way to me & turned into a side road, right infront of me, and i t-boned the car doing about 65Km/Hr, which i blacked out when my bike hit the car, i flew over the car and then i woke up facedown on the road, which was about 9-10 metres away from where i hit the car, thankfully i wasn't seriously hurt, (I can still say i have never had a broken bone), i got a gash on my left knee, and also pulled the Crutia ligaments on both my knees, my left being the worst. so about 2 months after that, i bought a car, but i am very keen to get another bike, when i can save up enough money :)

That sucks. Sell the car and buy a bike. It's winter so the perfect time to do so :laugh: