Rear brake use?

[SMOKEU]

Do many of you use the rear brake much on a sports bike when braking reasonably hard? With the weight transfer that occurs and the fact that using the back brake is just 1 more thing to concentrate on, is it good riding practice to just forget about using the back brake and put all my focus on the front?

[White trash]

I reckon it'd be pretty hard to do a sweet skid without it.

[The Pastor]

yes, of course you use it, unless the back wheel is in the air.

[nathanwhite]

Rear brake is good for when you dive into a corner too fast and can't pull the front. A little bit settles the bike down, a lot slows it.
Sure I'm not a on a sports bike, but the principle still applies

[bogan]

Bit of rear brake is helpful to settle the rear end down and a little extra braking force too, best to apply them both smoothly and quickly I think. Losing a bit of traction on the rear is nowhere near as bad as the front in my experience, and easily recoverable. Practice in a controlled environment till you get the hang of it.

[unstuck]

I love the back brake.:Punk:

[White trash]

In two years of racing I think I used the rear brake about 5 times. In fact, when my K3 road bike was being used as a demo, the rear brake pedal seized through lack of use.

Never touch it unless I'm on a Harley.

[imdying]

If you have to ask, then it's not yet time to buy that CBR900RR.

[misterO]

I'm not telling you what to do, but this is how I do it: Yep- I use the rear brake every time I use the front brake. It seems to keep the nose from diving too much and it certainly helps to reduce stopping distance. Boring details to follow: Many moons ago I went to a big empty carpark and spent the afternoon practicing emergency stops using just the front brake, and then using just the rear. Then both. I never managed to lock up the front but maximum braking at the rear without locking up took a bit of finesse (and trial and error). When needed, I apply the front pretty hard but the rear is pressed comparatively gently (at first, then progressively harder). How soon the rear locks up also has a bit to do with how much weight you're putting on it (leaning forward = ez rear lockup, sitting upright = slightly less ez). Using both brakes became second nature after a while. The only caveat might be: if I ever apply the brakes in a corner (something best avoided) then I am very, very gentle on the rear brake, especially in the wet. Come to think of it, I should probably go out and practice emergency stops again...

[slofox]

I did an "advanced rider course" a year or two back and was chided by the instructor for not using the back brake enough. He rightly pointed out that it helps balance the bike under hard braking and can prevent an unwanted stoppie. Or worse, having the front scrub out.

I also do as nathanwhite says in #4, above - use the back to lose speed if I overcook a corner. It's a matter of keeping some forward drive on with the throttle whilst you apply the back brake against that drive. Stops the back wheel locking up, scrubs off speed and can help maintain traction on shitty road surfaces. Discovered that many years ago when I used to blast my old Ariel around the Port Hills in Christchurch.

[Drew]

Never on the track. A bit on the road I guess, particularly with a pillion.

[sil3nt]

MotoGP riders use it. Must be useful for something.

[Lurch]

So many people seem to think it is a useless appendage on their sports bike but I (and many others) disagree and suggest that one day you will wish you were in the habit of using the ~25% extra stopping power that the rear brake gives you. I always start with the front brake to load the front end and then balance the braking manouvre out with some rear.

[Drew]

So many people seem to think it is a useless appendage on their sports bike but I (and many others) disagree and suggest that one day you will wish you were in the habit of using the ~25% extra stopping power that the rear brake gives you. I always start with the front brake to load the front end and then balance the braking manouvre out with some rear.

Where the hell do you get the 25% from? There is NO WHERE NEAR 25% more brakes available by using the rear brake.

I'm sure there is something to be said for settling the bike with the rear brake, but I get the engine to slow the bike down from the rear wheel coming at a turn hard. And bet you I'm getting damn near as much out of it as if I were to use the brake.

[Crasherfromwayback]

So many people seem to think it is a useless appendage on their sports bike but I (and many others) disagree and suggest that one day you will wish you were in the habit of using the ~25% extra stopping power that the rear brake gives you. I always start with the front brake to load the front end and then balance the braking manouvre out with some rear.

If you're using the front hard enough on a sports bike, your rear wheel is gonna be basically off the ground, and you won't be getting 25% extra from it.

[Lurch]

If you're using the front hard enough on a sports bike, your rear wheel is gonna be basically off the ground, and you won't be getting 25% extra from it.

I agree with this that there are diminishing returns on rear brake effectiveness as the load increases on the front wheel and that the risk of locking the rear increases along with this. I don't believe that this justifies the lack of use of the rear brake though.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I agree with this that there are diminishing returns on rear brake effectiveness as the load increases on the front wheel and that the risk of locking the rear increases along with this. I don't believe that this justifies the lack of use of the rear brake though.

Yeah, at the end of the day, each to their own. You'll notice guys like Nicky Hayden have much larger rear discs than the Pedrosa's of the world, as being ex flat trackers vs 125/250 GP pilot, they use them far more. I use the rear fuck all in the dry, but quite a bit in the wet to help settle things down.

[Drew]

I agree with this that there are diminishing returns on rear brake effectiveness as the load increases on the front wheel and that the risk of locking the rear increases along with this. I don't believe that this justifies the lack of use of the rear brake though.

Who needs to justify it?

Some of us have raced and ridden for a long time, we've tried different stuff, and come up with how we like to do it.

By the way, on a bike without a slipper clutch, hooking back cogs too quick will spit the rear out sideways. Why would I add to the slowing of the rear wheel more than the bike can be slowed down?

[Gremlin]

It's true that modern sportsbikes are quite capable of lifting the rear under hard braking, just by using the front brake. Obviously with the arse in the air the back brake is useless, however, applying it first will make the bike squat, hugging the road, allowing more use of the rear, and therefore, a better overall braking performance.

That's not even mentioning the effect you're going to get by having the whole bike's weight pitch forward if you're only applying the rear, and hard, plus all the bad handling.

Ultimately, if you know how to brake, it's more effective using both than just one.

On the BMW, I have ABS, linked brakes and BMW's anti-dive technology in the Paralever/Telelever setup. For a big bike, it stops damn fast.

[Crasherfromwayback]

, applying it first will make the bike squat, hugging the road, allowing more use of the rear, and therefore, a better overall braking performance.

.

To a certain extent, you're correct. But once you're really hauling on the front, the rear will still leave the deck, or all but.

[baffa]

It has it's uses, especially with a pillion on the back.

[Gremlin]

To a certain extent, you're correct. But once you're really hauling on the front, the rear will still leave the deck, or all but.
Stop humping the tank :bleh:

You actually don't want the rear leaving the deck, as you have less control over the bike and only one piece of rubber slowing you down. Once the rear is in the air, sometimes you can only brake less, or risk endo'ing the bike.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Stop humping the tank :bleh:

You actually don't want the rear leaving the deck, as you have less control over the bike and only one piece of rubber slowing you down. Once the rear is in the air, sometimes you can only brake less, or risk endo'ing the bike.

Aye. But you try keeping the rear wheel of a Honda RS250 on the deck!!

[Sable]

Only use it when I have a pillion or I'm raping a little bike half to death.

[ClutchITUP]

If i think its dodgy to use the front brake I'll use the back.
If you want hard braking or emergency braking go for the front always.
If you think look at all that sand on the road or those big potholes coming up tooo quickly on my line. Ill trail the back brake. My first bike TZR250 never had a working back brake. But then I did crash that alot haha. When I started riding a real sportsbike on the road I learnt quickly you need all the help you can get trying to slow down just a fraction or on a greasy/icy switch back corner on the Stelvio pass

Like WT said do rear brake skids lots of them learn what it does how it works even, so you can relax and be comfortable with it jamming it on or feathering it

[p.dath]

Do many of you use the rear brake much on a sports bike when braking reasonably hard? With the weight transfer that occurs and the fact that using the back brake is just 1 more thing to concentrate on, is it good riding practice to just forget about using the back brake and put all my focus on the front?

I think you'll get a bit of a mixed reaction. Might depend on where the person gets their experience from.

If your on the track, and are either braking or accelerating, and you approaching a tight corner from 300km/h, then the rear brake might not have that much impact. Or rather, the impact will be for a tiny amount of time.

Personally, for road use, I feel the rear brake does add something to the equation (it works for only a small amount of time, but larger than the track case above), so I do tend to use it as well as the front brake during hard breaking.

Also consider what happens when you come off the front brake. Without any rear brake the chain will tend to be loose (not under tension) and a sudden application of power can produce a snapping effect causing some instability in the bike. If you use the rear brake, even though the braking effect of the rear tyre is minimal, the chain will be kept under load, and the resulting delivery of power again to the read tyre smoother, resulting in greater bike stability.

[willytheekid]

Do many of you use the rear brake much on a sports bike when braking reasonably hard? With the weight transfer that occurs and the fact that using the back brake is just 1 more thing to concentrate on, is it good riding practice to just forget about using the back brake and put all my focus on the front?

I was taught at advanced road/race training to take full advantage of the rear brake, if used properly it can add more stopping power and more importantly improved corner stability!
How?...simple, when you use or "drag" the rear brake by itself it makes the bike "squat"...you can check this by simply pushing the rear end of your own bike down (same principle)....now get a mate to measure two things for you...the distance between the axels and the hight of the engine sump or belly pan.
These two factors are actually changing the cornering manners of your ride, the lower hight means a slightly lower center of gravity and the longer wheel base helps add slightly more stability to the bike.

So "in theory", if you drag the rear brake just before you hit the front brakes, the bike will squat, lenghten & pre-compress the rear shock, hence be more stable and less prone to lifting the rear end, the theoretical pay off is the bike tends to be more stable and goes through less of a "dramatic" physical change when hitting the corner (As the rear shock is pre-compressed etc), the end result is more traction and stability as you enter the corner.

But as Drew and others have stated, in the real world it comes down to the type of bike and the riders own style of cornering.

As an example, I had a 900 ninja that loved to have the rear brake dragged, it made a huge difference in cornering stability and stopping power...yet my VFR400 race bike hated it! (just made it twitchy and step out), so I just used engine braking and clutch control on the 400, my current bike the Guzzi is fat bitch and needs as much help stopping as possible lol so I currently use the rear brake alot.

End of the day, it comes down to your own preference and what works for and your own bikes set up :msn-wink:...but the physic's are there to be tested, and the results may pay off.

[bluninja]

I was taught at advanced road/race training to take full advantage of the rear brake, if used properly it can add more stopping power and more importantly improved corner stability!
How?...simple, when you use or "drag" the rear brake by itself it makes the bike "squat"...you can check this by simply pushing the rear end of your own bike down (same principle)....now get a mate to measure two things for you...the distance between the axels and the hight of the engine sump or belly pan.
These two factors are actually changing the cornering manners of your ride, the lower hight means a slightly lower center of gravity and the longer wheel base helps add slightly more stability to the bike.

So "in theory", if you drag the rear brake just before you hit the front brakes, the bike will squat, lenghten & pre-compress the rear shock, hence be more stable and less prone to lifting the rear end, the theoretical pay off is the bike tends to be more stable and goes through less of a "dramatic" physical change when hitting the corner (As the rear shock is pre-compressed etc), the end result is more traction and stability as you enter the corner.

But as Drew and others have stated, in the real world it comes down to the type of bike and the riders own style of cornering.

As an example, I had a 900 ninja that loved to have the rear brake dragged, it made a huge difference in cornering stability and stopping power...yet my VFR400 race bike hated it! (just made it twitchy and step out), so I just used engine braking and clutch control on the 400, my current bike the Guzzi is fat bitch and needs as much help stopping as possible lol so I currently use the rear brake alot.

End of the day, it comes down to your own preference and what works for and your own bikes set up :msn-wink:...but the physic's are there to be tested, and the results may pay off.

Good stuff...just to add...once you finish braking then rolling on the throttle causes the back wheel to push down (due to angle between chain and swingarm pivot), shorten the wheelbase, and raise the ride height allowing you to turn more quickly without dragging things .

[Crasherfromwayback]

Good stuff...just to add...once you finish braking then rolling on the throttle causes the back wheel to push down (due to angle between chain and swingarm pivot), shorten the wheelbase, and raise the ride height allowing you to turn more quickly without dragging things .

When the forks are compressed you'll shorten the wheelbase. As the swingarm comes up through parallel, is also when the wheelbase is at it's longest. Hence why you adjust the chain when the s/a is in that position.

[neels]

I've always used both brakes, mainly because I started out riding on old shitters with crap brakes and needed everything I had.

On my bike front brakes are great, and the back brake is near to useless for actually stopping, but I still trail it through corners so my foot is already there if I need to give things a tweak when cornering.

[p.dath]

Clarify my understanding please people. Considering only chain driven road orientated motorcycles.

Front brake obviously makes the front dive.

Does rolling on the gas cause the rear to rise or fall? My understanding is that the rear end rises, as the swing arm connects above the wheels centre of gravity (on most motorbikes) to the chassis (effectively sloping upwards), and a sudden burst of force "forward" would push the swing arm. And since the swing arm is already pointing upwards, the force goes in that direction.

Does the rear brake cause the rear to rise or fall? I would expect the answer to be the opposite of the above answer - fall. Similar reason I would have thought. The rear brake/tyre is now effectively "pulling" on the swing arm down.

[ducatilover]

When it works, use it to bring those awesome wheelies down (which a neither big, nor clever)

This, in effect, pulls the bitches.

[bogan]

Clarify my understanding please people. Considering only chain driven road orientated motorcycles.

Front brake obviously makes the front dive.

Does rolling on the gas cause the rear to rise or fall? My understanding is that the rear end rises, as the swing arm connects above the wheels centre of gravity (on most motorbikes) to the chassis (effectively sloping upwards), and a sudden burst of force "forward" would push the swing arm. And since the swing arm is already pointing upwards, the force goes in that direction.

Does the rear brake cause the rear to rise or fall? I would expect the answer to be the opposite of the above answer - fall. Similar reason I would have thought. The rear brake/tyre is now effectively "pulling" on the swing arm down.

Yup, rise under accel, fall under braking. But it is essentially due to the reaction torque from the wheel being applied to the swingarm, wheel goes CCW under accel, SA wants to go CW.

[Deano]

Yup, rise under accel, fall under braking. But it is essentially due to the reaction torque from the wheel being applied to the swingarm, wheel goes CCW under accel, SA wants to go CW.

It squats initially under acceleration though doesn't it ?

"When you get on the gas exiting a turn, that acceleration results in weight transferring to the rear wheel, commonly called squat.

Read more: http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0404_motorcycle_traction_geometry/index.html#ixzz1eOO0XshS"

[ducatilover]

It squats initially under acceleration though doesn't it ?

"When you get on the gas exiting a turn, that acceleration results in weight transferring to the rear wheel, commonly called squat.

Read more: http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0404_motorcycle_traction_geometry/index.html#ixzz1eOO0XshS"

I'm sure Keith Code says the rear tends to rise under acceleration, but the front rises more, hence the squat.

[bogan]

It squats initially under acceleration though doesn't it ?

"When you get on the gas exiting a turn, that acceleration results in weight transferring to the rear wheel, commonly called squat.

Read more: http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0404_motorcycle_traction_geometry/index.html#ixzz1eOO0XshS"

Interesting article! (even if I did have to open it in IE to get scroll bars back)

Looks like what I was talking about was the main bit of anti-squat, p.dath was referring to a minor effect, in my case it more often comes up, but I'm a lightweight, so weight transfer might be less than most.

[Gremlin]

Front brake obviously makes the front dive.
Actually... not necessarily. It's only due to the conventional suspension most bikes run, that the front dives. While my BMW is a shaft drive (re the chain line) it has nothing to do with the suspension. Two forks plus an extra spring, and the BMW doesn't dive under brakes.

[onearmedbandit]

Actually... not necessarily. It's only due to the conventional suspension most bikes run, that the front dives. While my BMW is a shaft drive (re the chain line) it has nothing to do with the suspension. Two forks plus an extra spring, and the BMW doesn't dive under brakes.

That's the telelever system though. It's like saying make sure the two chain adjusters are adjusted correctly, and someone then saying that's not necessarily true, as my bike runs a single sided swingarm.

[Gremlin]

That's the telelever system though. It's like saying make sure the two chain adjusters are adjusted correctly, and someone then saying that's not necessarily true, as my bike runs a single sided swingarm.
Sure... I'm just saying that making a sweeping statement like that isn't accurate when this thread seems to be rather particular :laugh:

[p.dath]

It squats initially under acceleration though doesn't it ?

"When you get on the gas exiting a turn, that acceleration results in weight transferring to the rear wheel, commonly called squat.

Read more: http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0404_motorcycle_traction_geometry/index.html#ixzz1eOO0XshS"

If I understand correctly, that would also be correct. Acceleration would transfer weight to the back wheel, while also resulting in the rear end of the bike rising.


Also found this quote in the same article:


Because the swingarm is at an angle to the ground, a portion of that forward thrust acts to lift the back of the bike

Read more: http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0404_motorcycle_traction_geometry/index.html#ixzz1eP3O4ZXJ

[Drew]

Also, if the rear suspension is compressed whilst leaned over in a turn when you get on the gas, the chain might actually try and make the rear of the bike fall. If the swing arm is already on an upward angle relative to the chain.

It's all well and good to get this technical about what he bike is doing when you ride it, but it rarely helps anyone ride better. Infact I submit the opposite to be the case. There are a load of people out there who try to practice counter steering for fuck sakes, it is not something that needs to be thought about at all! The enemy of smooth controlled riding, is quite often thinking about what you're doing.

[Gremlin]

Except that for some, some stuff doesn't come naturally, and have to read it, put it into practise, read a little more, and so on. Then it starts to fall into place.

For some (myself included), riding is natural, and therefore, just getting on and doing it, suffices.

[slofox]

There are a load of people out there who try to practice counter steering for fuck sakes, it is not something that needs to be thought about at all!


+1 on that. Think about it and you may well fuck it up.

When I was a kid I practically lived on a pushbike. All that countersteering etc etc etc just got acquired through a gazillion hours on a pushie.

It may be that kids who didn't have the pushbike experience have not acquired that kind of ingrained body stuff that goes into riding on two wheels.

[p.dath]

There are a load of people out there who try to practice counter steering for fuck sakes, it is not something that needs to be thought about at all! The enemy of smooth controlled riding, is quite often thinking about what you're doing.

And how do you propose to learn how to do something you don't know how to do? You learn and practice.

I can counter-steer quite deliberately, when I choose to (that means I have thought about it and decided I need to).

It would be far worse needing to be able to counter-steer, needing the reactions to kick in because you can't think how to do it, and then have an epic fail.


However I do agree with your second statement. You only have so much attention, and you don't want to be devoting a lot of it to basic riding skills. You simply need to be able to decide what to do, usually well in advance of actually needing to do it, and then let it happen.

[Drew]

And how do you propose to learn how to do something you don't know how to do? You learn and practice.

I can counter-steer quite deliberately, when I choose to (that means I have thought about it and decided I need to).

It would be far worse needing to be able to counter-steer, needing the reactions to kick in because you can't think how to do it, and then have an epic fail.


I cannot even begin to be bothered to have this argument again.

Anyone who thinks that they must consciously apply the pressure to the inside bar to get a bike to turn in that direction should stick with walking I think.

Just my opinion, you won't change it no matter what you say, don't try.

[tigertim20]

MotoGP riders use it. Must be useful for something.

+1.

everyone has their riding style. if you're asking with relation to track use, play around using all your options, and let your times/results answer the question for you.
For the road, do what feels comfortable.

[Crasherfromwayback]

MotoGP riders use it. Must be useful for something.


I agree with this that there are diminishing returns on rear brake effectiveness as the load increases on the front wheel and that the risk of locking the rear increases along with this. I don't believe that this justifies the lack of use of the rear brake though.


I was taught at advanced road/race training to take full advantage of the rear brake, if used properly it can add more stopping power and more importantly improved corner stability!
.


+1.

everyone has their riding style. if you're asking with relation to track use, play around using all your options, and let your times/results answer the question for you.
For the road, do what feels comfortable.

SOME MotoGP riders use...some don't. Bruce Ainstey was a keen user of the rear brake...but he's never gone past me on the picks, and I never used to use it. In fact...if I may say so, I was one of the late brakers from hell.

THIS guy doesn't really use it either. Anyone see his foot on the rear brake lever? At the end of the day...do what's right for you, not what others tell you is right.

251327

[CHOPPA]

Back brake is good for stopping the bike from wheelying out of a corner, its good for dragging it through tight slow turns on the road like u turns and roundabouts.

Stroudy uses it to lower the back of the bike before he grabs the front apparently.

I wouldnt use it when braking hard cause once your back wheel slows down to much and your bike starts sliding or 'backing in' it can take a long time before the back can regain grip and when your bike is sideways your front brakes are not doing as good of a job as possible due to weight transfer off to the side.

I would use it for trail braking on a right corner or you will take your foot off.

A thumb brake would be very handy

[Mad-V2]

I drag the rear brake through most corners on the road.
My theory is it loads the rear suspension so that if you hit some ruts mid corner the rear wheel won't skip across them as the wheel is being forced into the road.
But I've never had any training or done any courses, so I may not be the best to give out advise.

[vifferman]

... DCBS, doncha know. :yes:
However (but!) for many moons I've been in the habit of using the back brake to settle the bike, then the front brakes. Rear brake as a rudder for slow-speed turns, although I don't tend to do this on the VFR as it makes the front brake a bit too.

[Crasherfromwayback]

. Rear brake as a rudder for slow-speed turns, although I don't tend to do this on the VFR as it makes the front brake a bit too.

Don'tcha hate that? I know I certainly do.

[willytheekid]

SOME MotoGP riders use...some don't. Bruce Ainstey was a keen user of the rear brake...but he's never gone past me on the picks, and I never used to use it. In fact...if I may say so, I was one of the late brakers from hell.

THIS guy doesn't really use it either. Anyone see his foot on the rear brake lever? At the end of the day...do what's right for you, not what others tell you is right.

251327

Nice of you to quote me on that little bit that matched your personal point of view mate :laugh:
Here is the bit you seemed to have missed (And my own personal view....same as yours!...funny that:innocent:):niceone:



But as Drew and others have stated, in the real world it comes down to the type of bike and the riders own style of cornering.

As an example, I had a 900 ninja that loved to have the rear brake dragged, it made a huge difference in cornering stability and stopping power...yet my VFR400 race bike hated it! (just made it twitchy and step out), so I just used engine braking and clutch control on the 400, my current bike the Guzzi is fat bitch and needs as much help stopping as possible lol so I currently use the rear brake alot.

End of the day, it comes down to your own preference and what works for and your own bikes set up :msn-wink:...but the physic's are there to be tested, and the results may pay off.

So :bleh: ya crazy late brakin coffee burner you :laugh:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Nice of you to quote me on that little bit that matched your personal point of view mate :laugh:
Here is the bit you seemed to have missed (And my own personal view....same as yours!...funny that:innocent:):niceone:



So :bleh: ya crazy late brakin coffee burner you :laugh:

Sorry mate...wasn't on purpose. I know you said that.

[Dare]

Stroudy uses it to lower the back of the bike before he grabs the front apparently.y
I use it to preload the front suspension so it doesn't dive when I grab a handful of front brake, usually just after a light turns orange. Also helps when about to turn in hard. But then I have bouncy castle suspension so it really needs it ;)

[CHOPPA]

I use it to preload the front suspension so it doesn't dive when I grab a handful of front brake, usually just after a light turns orange. Also helps when about to turn in hard. But then I have bouncy castle suspension so it really needs it ;)

Thats good skills, I cant do it quick enough!

When your turning in to the right does your foot not hit the ground?

[imdying]

Sure... I'm just saying that making a sweeping statement like that isn't accurate when this thread seems to be rather particular :laugh:They were only talking about good handling bikes.

[Corse1]

Too much combined with V twin and changing down when a little hot can lock back up and cause crash...how do I know......

have concentrated on more front brake now and works a treat.....

Rider training on track starts out with front brake only with some trainers. I wonder why.

rear brake can help if trying to scrub off speed after entering a cornmer but just a little. Doesn't lift the bike up like the front will.

[caspernz]

Crikey, what a diverse set of opinions! May as well add mine. For road riding, using brakes selectively to circumvent suspension problems/reactions seems a bit like joining the mile-high club, solo aviators division....

Anyhoooo, I use the rear brake selectively, such as settling the bike when running downhill at pace. Most of the time the front brake is the only one I use, yet when I need to scrub speed in a hurry I use both of them together. Practice makes sense, for you need to know for your own bike where the lockup point is for rear brake alone. Rear brake gets used lots for low speed feet up maneuvering.

In the end, whatever works for your bike and your riding style.

[sugilite]

I drag mine over the rough stuff on the road. But for the most part, I don't brake much for corners at all, front or rear. It's a style I've been working on for a while now and have found it a really enjoyable challenge. Ultimate smooth when you get it right.:scooter:

[SMOKEU]

So is there any advantage for an "average" rider in using the rear brake MID CORNER other than to tighten the line after too fast a corner entry or in low speed turning situations such as turning into a driveway or going round a roundabout?

I have noticed that some people say they drag their rear brake through a corner as well as applying throttle, seems a bit counter intuitive (to me anyway).

Also, isn't engine braking on a big 4 stroke sports bike enough to lock the back wheel at high revs if no slipper clutch is fitted?

[imdying]

Mid corner you're thinking about how early you can get back on the gas, not fucking about with the rear brake.

[sugilite]

So is there any advantage for an "average" rider in using the rear brake MID CORNER other than to tighten the line after too fast a corner entry or in low speed turning situations such as turning into a driveway or going round a roundabout?

Yes, can stabilize, depends though on how hard you are braking and individual scenarios.


I have noticed that some people say they drag their rear brake through a corner as well as applying throttle, seems a bit counter intuitive (to me anyway).

Can have the effect of "stretching" the bike out and stabilizing things, I personally hardly ever do it.


Also, isn't engine braking on a big 4 stroke sports bike enough to lock the back wheel at high revs if no slipper clutch is fitted?

Yes, if you just bang it down the box roughly

[SMOKEU]

So if I find myself entering a corner too fast and I can't straighten up and brake, should I just keep holding the throttle open slightly AND lightly hold the rear brake as opposed to just backing off the throttle completely and letting the engine brake slow the back wheel with no back brake?

[onearmedbandit]

Been riding for over 20yrs now on the road, and while I understand why top flight racers can use the rear brake to settle the bike etc I've never had cause to use it in most riding situations, with the exception of tightening a line mid-corner, down hill cornering and slow speed turns. Don't concern yourself with it Chris. As far as locking the rear under engine braking, mate I've slammed my thou down the box entering the hairpin at Ruapuna and had the back wheel chattering but never lock up.

[caspernz]

So if I find myself entering a corner too fast and I can't straighten up and brake, should I just keep holding the throttle open slightly AND lightly hold the rear brake as opposed to just backing off the throttle completely and letting the engine brake slow the back wheel with no back brake?

This might be a time where looking where you want to go, opening throttle a little more and riding it out is the answer.... Braking takes away stability whereas gently cranking throttle will add stability. Oh, and if you make it thru the turn you'll see the wisdom in the old racers' saying: Slow in, fast out.

[SMOKEU]

This might be a time where looking where you want to go, opening throttle a little more and riding it out is the answer.... Braking takes away stability whereas gently cranking throttle will add stability. Oh, and if you make it thru the turn you'll see the wisdom in the old racers' saying: Slow in, fast out.

So if I'm running wide then should I just try and lean more? I always try to err on the side of caution and take corners slower than what I know I can take it.

[caspernz]

Running wide can be countered by hanging off the inside of the bike a bit, even just moving one arsecheek off the seat helps. Drop your inside shoulder, weight the inside footpeg, look where you wanna go and crank a bit of throttle. Leaning over a bit more doesn't hurt. Some professional rider training can fine tune all these individual bike control skills.

[onearmedbandit]

So if I'm running wide then should I just try and lean more? I always try to err on the side of caution and take corners slower than what I know I can take it.

Yup. Lean that bitch more, if you find yourself looking at the edge of the road that's where you'll go, make yourself look where you want to go, not where you think you're going to head up going (ie the ditch).

On a ride to Nelson a couple years back I found myself too fast for a left hand bend. On the current trajectory I was on I was going to cross the centreline. I turned my head sharp into the corner (I had looked forward when I realised what was happening) and dropped that bitch in, toe touched down quickly followed by peg then the peg started folding in. I made it through the corner with no more fuss, and stayed within my lane. Now I ride reasonably quickly on the road (not top speed stuff, just linking corners together) but I never ride hard enough to scrape my pegs regularly (too many risks on the road to do that) but I know that if I ever get myself into trouble my bike can go over a lot further to dig myself out of the shit. Oh and I never touched the rear brake during that incident, I was too busy concentrating on dropping the bike into the corner harder.

[caspernz]

Yep, look where you want to go! All the courses for driver or rider training I've ever been on have drummed this in. The mind achieves what you focus it on, focus on where you don't wanna end up and oooppss, there you'll end up. Have had one or two experiences similar to onearmedbandit, without hospital food intervention, and have learned from these. I ride just as fast nowadays, but experience combined with correct technique (training) has enlarged my comfort zone. Oh yes, my footpegs are unmarked from the bottom, by choice.

[Crasherfromwayback]

So if I'm running wide then should I just try and lean more? I always try to err on the side of caution and take corners slower than what I know I can take it.

Maybe part of the 'running wide' thing is taking the wrong line into the corner in the first place?

[caspernz]

Maybe part of the 'running wide' thing is taking the wrong line into the corner in the first place?

Yes, perhaps we were solving the symptom not the cause? Take a Prorider course and report back....

[bluninja]

Running wide can be countered by hanging off the inside of the bike a bit, even just moving one arsecheek off the seat helps. Drop your inside shoulder, weight the inside footpeg, look where you wanna go and crank a bit of throttle. Leaning over a bit more doesn't hurt. Some professional rider training can fine tune all these individual bike control skills.

Personally I would weight the outside footpeg. If your weight is on your inside peg and it touches it's not good. With the weight on your outside peg and the inside just resting you can put your knee down, ankle and calf sliders down, and finally let the peg (if it's not fixed) lift.....all the time applying throttle. I think that's something that Keith Code advocates.....weighting the ourside peg, not going in too fast and putting all your lower body parts on the tarmac.

I was taught a wierd technique on an advanced course of momentarily rolling off the throttle a little and then reapplying to the original position just to make the bike fall into the corner a bit more. The theory being that the front tyre is heavily stressed and more countersteer to get the bike over could make it lose traction. Rolling off and on the throttle causes a small loss of speed and the bike falls inwards without more stress on the tyre. I guess it's similar to using a little rear brake, it's just I'm not gifted enough to cope with steering, throttle and brakes when I'm going OMG-OMG-too-fastI-won't-make-it

[sugilite]

I'm going OMG-OMG-too-fastI-won't-make-it

I'm Not trying to judge you here, but in my opinion that above line is why a lot of people crash, they literally talk themselves out of options and into trouble. Creating ones own reality n all that.
Not running in to hot is if course best practice, but practicing survival skills in a safe area is great back up insurance. :niceone:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Not riding in an OMG OMG state on the road in the first place is a good place to start as well.

OMG...I'm starting to sound like Katman...

[scumdog]

Don't concern yourself with it Chris. As far as locking the rear under engine braking, mate I've slammed my thou down the box entering the hairpin at Ruapuna and had the back wheel chattering but never lock up.

On the other hand I was heading to Nelson and coming down the Hope saddle in the T-Sport in the wet, I changed down a bit ham-fistedly (sort of par for the course for me!) heading into a hair-pin.

When I let the clutch out it caused me to have a big slide a couple of times as the rear locked up, wasn't going fast but with the wet road and the weight coming off the back wheeel it was enough....:blink::shutup:

[caspernz]

In the end, if you think you can...guess what? You can. At least if you're gonna crash, let it be while trying your darndest not to. And you haven't crashed until you've hit something. I mean, if you cross the centreline when you see there's nothing coming at you...what's the big deal? It's just a learning opportunity.

[bluninja]

I'm Not trying to judge you here, but in my opinion that above line is why a lot of people crash, they literally talk themselves out of options and into trouble. Creating ones own reality n all that.
Not running in to hot is if course best practice, but practicing survival skills in a safe area is great back up insurance. :niceone:

No problemo....the OMG moment was at Lesmo 1 at Monza race track....after I'd done the OMG and decided the kitty litter was too deep (I'd seen people go off and get flipped off as the wheels dug in) I decided to hang off more, lean it more, and give it more throttle. I got round, it was a massive rush...I then slowed down (comparativley), finished the lap and into the pits to regroup.

I prefer not to put myself in OMG territory on the road, but to me OMG is just part of recognising a problem that I need to solve. Staying at OMG is a problem.

[Crasherfromwayback]

No problemo....the OMG moment was at Lesmo 1 at Monza race track.....

Very jealous that you've ridden there!

[ducatilover]

Maybe part of the 'running wide' thing is taking the wrong line into the corner in the first place?

Or being too stiff (entendre intended) and not letting the bike do its job.

[imdying]

So if I find myself entering a corner too fast and I can't straighten up and brake, should I just keep holding the throttle open slightly AND lightly hold the rear brake as opposed to just backing off the throttle completely and letting the engine brake slow the back wheel with no back brake?Same as always, a little gas to put some of the stress on the rear tyre, giving you more grip and suspension travel in reserve at the front. 'Feels' better too, which probably helps at a psychological level when you're in the shite. Consciously use plenty of pressure on the inside bar till you're round the bend; if you're still a noob it needs to be concious as your brain will probably be telling you it's all bad. Finally make sure you're looking where you need to be, not where you think you're going to end up. All told I'm a very poor, very slow rider. That's seen me get in over my head a few times over the years, and that little lot has saved my life a few times.

Screw the rear brake, if you're well in the shite you don't want to rob any grip.



Been riding for over 20yrs now on the road, and while I understand why top flight racers can use the rear brake to settle the bike etc I've never had cause to use it in most riding situationsSame, except for the SV1000 which handles like a sack of shite and likes to be argued with.

[bluninja]

Very jealous that you've ridden there!

Route Napolean down to the south of France, 2 days at the track, and a different route back.....be very jealous :) Glad I got to do it.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Route Napolean down to the south of France, 2 days at the track, and a different route back.....be very jealous :) Glad I got to do it.

I am don't worry! You never forget trips like that eh! Harley USA lent me a Buell XB12SS in 07, and I had an awesome road trip over there for 15 days odd. Wish it could've been longer though!!

[awa355]

What are brakes???????:confused: I just use the end wall in the garage when I get home from a ride.

[p.dath]

So if I find myself entering a corner too fast and I can't straighten up and brake, should I just keep holding the throttle open slightly AND lightly hold the rear brake as opposed to just backing off the throttle completely and letting the engine brake slow the back wheel with no back brake?

Yes. Don't ever completely close the throttle mid corner.

[CHOPPA]

There is a whole heap of opinions on this thread.

I would seriously advise everyone to attend the California Superbike School.

The great thing about the CSS is that they teach facts about riding using laws of physics etc. I tried to prove there methods wrong but they were right. I have done all 4 levels. Plus I have done level 4 at Phillip Island and im doing level 4 again this weekend.

Money very well spent

[CHOPPA]

There is a CSS day Tomorrow and Saturday. GET THERE!

​http://www.californiasuperbikeschool.co.nz/

[imdying]

I'm not sure that will help SmokeU, bit far to go.

[CHOPPA]

You could fly there and back, get accommodation, rental car, hire bike and superbike school for $1000.... Not bad, prob the same as the excess when you throw away your bike listening to peoples opinions plus it would be a great experience...

[Luckylegs]

Plenty of corners between there and HD though, to practice all the advice :msn-wink:

[Usarka]

I have noticed that some people say they drag their rear brake through a corner as well as applying throttle, seems a bit counter intuitive (to me anyway).


Rear brake u-turns method is awesome. Drag the back brake, constant throttle and control speed with clutch.


down hill cornering

That's my main one. But I find I'm a numpty with gauging the pressure on the rear brake unless I practice using it so I always use rear in general day to day braking.

[CHOPPA]

I disconnect my rear brake light switch so it doesnt look like im a noob riding around with my brakes on haha

[imdying]

You could fly there and back, get accommodation, rental car, hire bike and superbike school for $1000.... Not bad, prob the same as the excess when you throw away your bike listening to peoples opinions plus it would be a great experience...Do you think that the best course of action for somebody who is a poor student, inexperienced, and rides a 250, to travel 1000km at the drop of a hat, only to arrive at a very expensive course fatigued? :blink:

I fail to see how your suggestion is applicable in this instance.

[Big Dave]

There is a whole heap of opinions on this thread.

You're so polite!

[baffa]

I should add,

I also brake a fair amount on the rear brake when approaching a corner at speed, simply because if you are rev matching as you change down through the gears, it's trickier to consistantly use the front lever whilst you're blipping the throttle.

So I tend to start braking with both, release the front brake, blip throttle as I change from say 4th to 3rd or 2nd, then use front brakes as necessary before diving through the corner.

I can hold the lever whilst blipping the throttle in order to brake later and still rev match, but it's a little choppy.

[Drew]

I should add,

I also brake a fair amount on the rear brake when approaching a corner at speed, simply because if you are rev matching as you change down through the gears, it's trickier to consistantly use the front lever whilst you're blipping the throttle.

So I tend to start braking with both, release the front brake, blip throttle as I change from say 4th to 3rd or 2nd, then use front brakes as necessary before diving through the corner.

I can hold the lever whilst blipping the throttle in order to brake later and still rev match, but it's a little choppy.I've never really had much issue with what you're saying, but I know guys that have. I don't think it really matches the revs that closely anyway when you're punting, but it is quite important on a twin, my advice would be that on the track to turn your idle up, and on the road just hold the throttle on a constant little bit as ya shift down.

[CHOPPA]

Do you think that the best course of action for somebody who is a poor student, inexperienced, and rides a 250, to travel 1000km at the drop of a hat, only to arrive at a very expensive course fatigued? :blink:

I fail to see how your suggestion is applicable in this instance.

I put accommodation in there so why would he be fatigued?

Im offering the best advice here, if he is not in the position to do that, then it is his decision.

To me taking random people advice about such an issue imo is downright dangerous.

I think every single rider should do the CSS training as a government funded scheme. If would save a lot of lives.

[CHOPPA]

I should add,

I also brake a fair amount on the rear brake when approaching a corner at speed, simply because if you are rev matching as you change down through the gears, it's trickier to consistantly use the front lever whilst you're blipping the throttle.

So I tend to start braking with both, release the front brake, blip throttle as I change from say 4th to 3rd or 2nd, then use front brakes as necessary before diving through the corner.

I can hold the lever whilst blipping the throttle in order to brake later and still rev match, but it's a little choppy.

Practice practice practice......

I used to blip the throttle even on the track but now I find I dont have time to blip between 3-4 gear changes.

Slipper clutches are great you can dump the clutch but the twin I ride you have to use the clutch lever as your slipper.

One day you guys that are used to the rear brake method into corners to slow you down are going to pinch the rear brake its gonna lock up and even if you let it off its gonna feel like the back of the bike is on ice and you cant control it

[imdying]

I put accommodation in there so why would he be fatigued?

Im offering the best advice here, if he is not in the position to do that, then it is his decision.

To me taking random people advice about such an issue imo is downright dangerous.

I think every single rider should do the CSS training as a government funded scheme. If would save a lot of lives.

That would be awesome for sure, meanwhile he we are.

[GrayWolf]

Quotes from an 'advanced' riding technique book available in NZ

Rear brake...
as a general rule, use both brakes every time you slow down or stop........ Apply both brakes at the same time. While it is theoreticaly correct to apply the front brake first, because of the control layout, if thr rider goes for both brakes at the same time, he will apply the brakes in the correct sequence.

countersteering
Countersteering by itself is the method of lean that is probably the most versatile of all methods! When used very very subtly it can give a slow, smooth lean. Subtle use gives a very accurate change of direction. When used firmly it gives a hard and fast change of direction that is much less accurate..

That I hope will clear up the arguements that the back brake and countersteering are unnescessary or irrelevant.

[onearmedbandit]

Quotes from an 'advanced' riding technique book available in NZ



countersteering
Countersteering by itself is the method of lean that is probably the most versatile of all methods!


Here we go... :wait:

[Drew]

Quotes from an 'advanced' riding technique book available in NZ

Rear brake...
as a general rule, use both brakes every time you slow down or stop........ Apply both brakes at the same time. While it is theoreticaly correct to apply the front brake first, because of the control layout, if thr rider goes for both brakes at the same time, he will apply the brakes in the correct sequence.

countersteering
Countersteering by itself is the method of lean that is probably the most versatile of all methods! When used very very subtly it can give a slow, smooth lean. Subtle use gives a very accurate change of direction. When used firmly it gives a hard and fast change of direction that is much less accurate..

That I hope will clear up the arguements that the back brake and countersteering are unnescessary or irrelevant.

Why, because it is written in a book that you have not given reference too?

Does anyone on this site even fuckin ride a bike? Go out, and work out for yourself what is BEST FOR YOU and your style!

[pritch]

MotoGP riders use it. Must be useful for something.

Some more than others. When both Hayden and Pedrosa were on Hondas, Hayden ran a bigger disc on the back 'cause he used it more.

I think it was Mick Doohan had a thumb lever fitted to his bike to operate the rear brake. He seemed to think the back brake was important.

[pritch]

YYou'll notice guys like Nicky Hayden have much larger rear discs than the Pedrosa's of the world,

Bugga! You beat me...

[Crasherfromwayback]

Bugga! You beat me...

Yeah...I even put pics up of both the bikes back then for the peeps!:sunny:

[Berries]

Not my opinion, but what I do -

Back brake going down my drive, which is gravel or slippery clay depending on how much rain there has been.
Back brake if stopped at traffic lights on a slope.
Back brake if icy.
That's it.


Does anyone on this site even fuckin ride a bike?
It surprises me how few do.

[GrayWolf]

Why, because it is written in a book that you have not given reference too?

Does anyone on this site even fuckin ride a bike? Go out, and work out for yourself what is BEST FOR YOU and your style!

No I have never ridden a bike, really, honestly, I am really an SUV driver who loves forcing dimwit bikers off the road! However just for you... book un referenced for YOUR edification is....

the secret skills of motorcycle riding level 2,
NZ motorcycle safety consultants, Mega Rider organisation....

Also please feel free to read the UK Police 'roadcraft' manual, unless of course one of the most highly trained 'pursuit' riding forces have nothing to teach you?

What I do know is best for my style? Is avoiding riding with people like YOU on the road!

[Deano]

What I do know is best for my style? Is avoiding riding with people like YOU on the road!

There's not many that can keep up so you'd most likely be sweet in any case.

[sinfull]

My back brake squeaks, do you think oiling the disc might help ?

Is there a book on the subject ?

[Kickaha]

There's not many that can keep up so you'd most likely be sweet in any case.

Easy enough to pass him when he crashes though :whistle:

[Crasherfromwayback]

My back brake squeaks, do you think oiling the disc might help ?

Is there a book on the subject ?

Better to remove the caliper. You'll save weight at the same time.

[ellipsis]

....after years of riding without a front brake on dirt ovals and then giving that away for road racing, i found it very difficult to even touch the front lever for a long while....now after lots of years on sealed circuits i am very wary of the back brake....similar on the road, but i find that now and again a poke at the rear does settle a lot of things down...fuck putting too much thought into it tho...i didn't have a head for heights when i was much,much younger...not a good foible to have if you work at heights...i had to rationalise my fears and found one little mantra that worked and all of a sudden i was one of those highwire type of nutters that could tip toe along a 60 degree roof on the ridge line or run around on the top plate of a two or three storey structure....the change came when i thought about why we didn't ever worry about falling from a plank set at a meter high yet were terrified if it was 6 or 8 meters high...it was a simple deduction....too much thought going into what is a purely natural thing, standing up without falling...

[Crasherfromwayback]

the secret skills of motorcycle riding level 2,
NZ motorcycle safety consultants, Mega Rider organisation....
!

If I'm not wrong...that's Allan Kirk and his mates? Allan Kirk couldn't ride his hand without falling off it.

[Drew]

book un referenced for YOUR edification is....



Bwahahahahahahahaha, although you are trying to preach, it has nothing to do with religion.

Go get a fuckin dictionary and look up edification ya muppet.

I suppose your context could be construed as correct, since you seem to think that the two books you've read are gospel.

The reason I ask if anyone on here rides, is because dicks like you judge the likes of my riding on what I've typed. I dunno if you're too simple to put two and two together man, but riding and computing are very different things.

For the first time in a while I seem to have struck a nerve though. Keep biting, I love slinging shit and no one else takes me seriously so I've got no rep to tarnish.

[davebullet]

Well I just made it easy for me to decide. Just had my first bin and snapped off the rear brake lever... so it's front only time to get it to the shop!

PS: for what it's worth, I occasionally use the back brake just to make sure it still works. It does help slow down - sure, but more often than not dangerous to use. After a while without use, the back brake pads seem to "glaze" over and become ineffective. The back brake on the speed triple is not very good anyway. Some people trail into a corner, or use it mid corner. That for me just had the effect of lengthening the wheelbase and making the bike run wide.

[Stylo]

Bwahahahahahahahaha, although you are trying to preach, it has nothing to do with religion.

Go get a fuckin dictionary and look up edification ya muppet.

I suppose your context could be construed as correct, since you seem to think that the two books you've read are gospel.

The reason I ask if anyone on here rides, is because dicks like you judge the likes of my riding on what I've typed. I dunno if you're too simple to put two and two together man, but riding and computing are very different things.

For the first time in a while I seem to have struck a nerve though. Keep biting, I love slinging shit and no one else takes me seriously so I've got no rep to tarnish.


Oh dear :facepalm:

[sinfull]

Bwahahahahahahahaha, although you are trying to preach, it has nothing to do with religion.

Go get a fuckin dictionary and look up edification ya muppet.

I suppose your context could be construed as correct, since you seem to think that the two books you've read are gospel.

The reason I ask if anyone on here rides, is because dicks like you judge the likes of my riding on what I've typed. I dunno if you're too simple to put two and two together man, but riding and computing are very different things.

For the first time in a while I seem to have struck a nerve though. Keep biting, I love slinging shit and no one else takes me seriously so I've got no rep to tarnish. Well said ! Gives me the shits all that quoting from books, how the fuck are ya suppose to turn the pages when shits going down ??

No seriously !! Them cunt's with the books should learn to ride without reading ! That shit should be outlawed like drinking while riding, though that is hard without straws !!


Well I just made it easy for me to decide. Just had my first bin and snapped off the rear brake lever....
I hope the chick in your avatar was not hurt too bad ?

[sinfull]

Better to remove the caliper. You'll save weight at the same time.
Sweet, never thought of that side of it, riding on the road and all that now ! Can you buy a bung of some kind for the brake line ? Or should i just take the pedal off too, so as to save brake fluid squirting on the back tyre by mistakingly depressing the brake ?

On second thoughts it should be ok cause the fluid would only hit the side of the tyre and it's a harley and everyone knows they don't corner, so a bit of oil won't hurt and might soak in to stop the tyre drying out and keep it's longevity aye ?

[CHOPPA]

Its surprising how fast I resorted to my back brakes when the lever pulls back to the handle at 220 and theres a wall coming up...

[GrayWolf]

Bwahahahahahahahaha, although you are trying to preach, it has nothing to do with religion.

Go get a fuckin dictionary and look up edification ya muppet.

I suppose your context could be construed as correct, since you seem to think that the two books you've read are gospel.

The reason I ask if anyone on here rides, is because dicks like you judge the likes of my riding on what I've typed. I dunno if you're too simple to put two and two together man, but riding and computing are very different things.

For the first time in a while I seem to have struck a nerve though. Keep biting, I love slinging shit and no one else takes me seriously so I've got no rep to tarnish.

nah struck a nerve? you need to be a lot better at shit slinging than this feeble attempt. If you cannot converse or enter an arguement wiothout resorting to anglo saxon and purile outpouring? You arent worth the time.. Oh apart from the FACT that the Police roadcraft book I mentioned IS accepted worldwide as one of the formost knowledge bases of motorcycling, however as you are obviously superior to them? I rest my case....:yawn:

[caspernz]

Haha, yep the above dribble reminds me of a brief discussion I had with one of my fellow biking colleagues. I mentioned I was going to attend some Prorider courses. His response: "What the hell for? You've been riding for years...." To which I responded: "Quite simple really, I wanna be the best rider I can be. And anyway, you've been driving trucks for 20 odd years too and yet you still can't do that properly."

The best place to learn is at a course, preferably on a track or other place where no traffic is around. The next best thing might be to take on board the advice from a longtime biker whose opinion you respect....obviously this forum is such a place at times, yet at others it's overrun by Richard Cranium impersonators.

[Drew]

nah struck a nerve? you need to be a lot better at shit slinging than this feeble attempt. If you cannot converse or enter an arguement wiothout resorting to anglo saxon and purile outpouring? You arent worth the time.. Oh apart from the FACT that the Police roadcraft book I mentioned IS accepted worldwide as one of the formost knowledge bases of motorcycling, however as you are obviously superior to them? I rest my case....:yawn:When did I say I was better than them. You're blowing this out of proportion. I'm not saying don't listen to others or read the books, I'm saying that what they say isn't gospel. And different shit works for everyone.

If I roll into a turn on an inferior bike with inferior tyres, does that mean that you on better gear can chase me through knowing you can't crash if I don't crash? No, because rider input is different, and you might not be subtle enough on the controls.


Haha, yep the above dribble reminds me of a brief discussion I had with one of my fellow biking colleagues. I mentioned I was going to attend some Prorider courses. His response: "What the hell for? You've been riding for years...." To which I responded: "Quite simple really, I wanna be the best rider I can be. And anyway, you've been driving trucks for 20 odd years too and yet you still can't do that properly."

The best place to learn is at a course, preferably on a track or other place where no traffic is around. The next best thing might be to take on board the advice from a longtime biker whose opinion you respect....obviously this forum is such a place at times, yet at others it's overrun by Richard Cranium impersonators.As above.

[imdying]

I'm saying that what they say isn't gospel.You're either thick, or have a pretty low opinion of everyone else on the planet, which admittedly I can sympathise with. What makes you think people reading anything on the internet, or Kiwibiker no less, are going to take everything they read as gospel?

[caspernz]

You're either thick, or have a pretty low opinion of everyone else on the planet, which admittedly I can sympathise with. What makes you think people reading anything on the internet, or Kiwibiker no less, are going to take everything they read as gospel?

Haha, yep it's all there between the lines....

[bluninja]

So who teaches the teachers? How did the people writing books learn without someone to tell them?

I am part way through watching Twist of the wrist 2 on DVD (I can only take so much American cheese at once), and it is impressive to see the video actions going with the words. Keith's 'cheesy' message seems to be about balancing the bike with throttle control; no mention of rear brake use so far. :)

[quickbuck]

Haha, yep the above dribble reminds me of a brief discussion I had with one of my fellow biking colleagues. I mentioned I was going to attend some Prorider courses. His response: "What the hell for? You've been riding for years...." To which I responded: "Quite simple really, I wanna be the best rider I can be. And anyway, you've been driving trucks for 20 odd years too and yet you still can't do that properly."


Classic!......
(Must spread Rep etc. etc.)

[Drew]

You're either thick, or have a pretty low opinion of everyone else on the planet, which admittedly I can sympathise with. What makes you think people reading anything on the internet, or Kiwibiker no less, are going to take everything they read as gospel?

I'd like to think I'm neither thick, or have a particularly low opinion of people. I never said he treats everything he reads as gospel, I said he seems to think the books he quoted are. Due to his emphatic belief in what they say, and how irritated he seemed to get when I questioned him and them.

Also, does the book that dribbles about counter steering, give any other method of steering Grey Wolf? Your quote says counter steering can be used sometimes when turning a bike.

[imdying]

I'd like to think I'm neither thick, or have a particularly low opinion of people. I never said he treats everything he reads as gospel, I said he seems to think the books he quoted are. Due to his emphatic belief in what they say, and how irritated he seemed to get when I questioned him and them.Sorry, that was a comprehension fault on my own behalf; I had assumed that 'they' meant you were commenting on the giving of help, through mediums such as books, in general, rather than that specific you've just clarified.

I think have to read 'active' or 'passive' into discussions about counter steering, which is a trap that we (those that know the difference) somewhat build for newbies unwittingly.

[baffa]

Not my opinion, but what I do -

Back brake going down my drive, which is gravel or slippery clay depending on how much rain there has been.
Back brake if stopped at traffic lights on a slope.
Back brake if icy.
That's it.


It surprises me how few do.

See it's funny, I avoid the rear brakes if I'm on a slippery surface, since it locks so much quicker.
In saying that, riding a mate's 600cc with a bigger stickier rear tyre, I found I could brake heavier with the rear, so I guess it depends on the bike as well.

[oOGixxerOo]

you put 10% on the rear brake and 90% on the front...use them at the same time...

[sinfull]

you put 10% on the rear brake and 90% on the front...use them at the same time...

Phew !!! Thank god you showed up to sort that argument out !!

[quickbuck]

Phew !!! Thank god you showed up to sort that argument out !!
Yup, first post after 15 months of lurking...At least it is pretty much on the money with regard to weight distribution of a bike under full braking.

[bluninja]

you put 10% on the rear brake and 90% on the front...use them at the same time...

10% of what on the rear brake and 90% of what on the front?

braking force on each wheel?
pressure applied to each brake? In that case what happens if you have dual discs at the front?
Pressure on the levers?

Does this apply regardless of the geometry of the bike?

[slowpoke]

Rear brake? Is that in the lil' glass box that's stamped with "break glass in case of emergency"? I haven't checked but I think it's still in there......

[caspernz]

Classic!......
(Must spread Rep etc. etc.)

Yes Aaron, I have to admit I had this reply ready to go as I was expecting this sort of comment.

To give you an idea on his driving trucks in what he perceives the right way....he uses only the trailer brake (hand control) to do check braking downhill....whereas the correct method is a brief fairly hard application of the service brake (footbrake) which brings all brakes on at the same time. Go figure.

[Fast Eddie]

If you're using the front hard enough on a sports bike, your rear wheel is gonna be basically off the ground, and you won't be getting 25% extra from it.

BINGO ^

For a sports bike - You can do all your hard braking on the front. The emergency stop should even have the clutch pulled in because the drag of the engine/drive engaged is supposed to prevent you from slowing down as quickly as you could free wheeling and hard on the front.

Don't lock up the rear, the bikes stability comes from that gyro effect right? Better to spin it

I use the rear alot but in a variety of ways, like a traction control coming out of corners. or doing u turns or slow round abouts/slow tight hairpins sorta have the gas on but drag the rear brake and its stops slacking around on and off throttle and wobbling round.

Im sure cruisers with their big fat ass use their rear in a different way and offroad etc dif

[Fast Eddie]

If I'm not wrong...that's Allan Kirk and his mates? Allan Kirk couldn't ride his hand without falling off it.

hahahahaha ahhh, gold! ^

[Fast Eddie]

Some more than others. When both Hayden and Pedrosa were on Hondas, Hayden ran a bigger disc on the back 'cause he used it more.

I think it was Mick Doohan had a thumb lever fitted to his bike to operate the rear brake. He seemed to think the back brake was important.

Doohan prob used it as traction control on the 500cc gp beasts

[Crasherfromwayback]

Doohan prob used it as traction control on the 500cc gp beasts

Think he used to use it mid corner to settle it, and on the way out as an anti wheelie control.

[Fast Eddie]

Think he used to use it mid corner to settle it, and on the way out as an anti wheelie control.

nice, those 500 gp bikes tended to leave the corner rear wheel spinning and sideways though.. old Schwantz & co.

[Crasherfromwayback]

nice, those 500 gp bikes tended to leave the corner rear wheel spinning and sideways though.. old Schwantz & co.

Like a 500cc two stroke dirt bike. They spin like fuck, but when they grab traction out of the blue from somewhere...it's instant wheelie city!

[Usarka]

What I've learnt from KB.

Front wheel = always off ground when accelerating.
Rear wheel = always off ground when braking.
You should always be accelerating or braking.
Therefore rear brake useless unless you need to speed up transition from wheelie to stoppie.

[quickbuck]

Yes Aaron, I have to admit I had this reply ready to go as I was expecting this sort of comment.

To give you an idea on his driving trucks in what he perceives the right way....he uses only the trailer brake (hand control) to do check braking downhill....whereas the correct method is a brief fairly hard application of the service brake (footbrake) which brings all brakes on at the same time. Go figure.

Heaven help us all.....

[Crasherfromwayback]

What I've learnt from KB.

Front wheel = always off ground when accelerating.
Rear wheel = always off ground when braking.
You should always be accelerating or braking.
Therefore rear brake useless unless you need to speed up transition from wheelie to stoppie.

Finally someone has taken it all on board!

[Fast Eddie]

What I've learnt from KB.

Front wheel = always off ground when accelerating.
Rear wheel = always off ground when braking.
You should always be accelerating or braking.
Therefore rear brake useless unless you need to speed up transition from wheelie to stoppie.

lol just ride it all like a speedway bike and flag the brakes all round and just do the left hand corners

[Fast Eddie]

Like a 500cc two stroke dirt bike. They spin like fuck, but when they grab traction out of the blue from somewhere...it's instant wheelie city!

that sounds kinda fun, where do I sign up?

[Crasherfromwayback]

that sounds kinda fun, where do I sign up?

They are. Plenty of 5 hundies avail for sale nowadays mate. Cheap too.

[GrayWolf]

Haha, yep the above dribble reminds me of a brief discussion I had with one of my fellow biking colleagues. I mentioned I was going to attend some Prorider courses. His response: "What the hell for? You've been riding for years...." To which I responded: "Quite simple really, I wanna be the best rider I can be. And anyway, you've been driving trucks for 20 odd years too and yet you still can't do that properly."

The best place to learn is at a course, preferably on a track or other place where no traffic is around. The next best thing might be to take on board the advice from a longtime biker whose opinion you respect....obviously this forum is such a place at times, yet at others it's overrun by Richard Cranium impersonators.


I'd like to think I'm neither thick, or have a particularly low opinion of people. I never said he treats everything he reads as gospel, I said he seems to think the books he quoted are. Due to his emphatic belief in what they say, and how irritated he seemed to get when I questioned him and them.

Also, does the book that dribbles about counter steering, give any other method of steering Grey Wolf? Your quote says counter steering can be used sometimes when turning a bike.


So who teaches the teachers? How did the people writing books learn without someone to tell them?

I am part way through watching Twist of the wrist 2 on DVD (I can only take so much American cheese at once), and it is impressive to see the video actions going with the words. Keith's 'cheesy' message seems to be about balancing the bike with throttle control; no mention of rear brake use so far. :)

Was busy at work to reply to this, however.
Firstly, who teaches the teachers? Many on here are able to remember the racing drivers/riders from the 60,70,80's. Historicaly, old style riders didnt climb all over the bike, find clips of riders like John Surtees, Mike the bike Hailwood. Then in the 70-80's bikes had enough power for the Spencer, Roberts, Dunlop era riders to start power sliding then power drifting through corners. It was an evolution of style and machine. Those of you who go on 'track days' are being taught by people who are taught by/from the experiences of those riders.
(Remember please that in the 1970's barry Sheene came off his WORKS Suzuki at 170mph.. in this age, road bikes are faster than that racing bike, and with more engine power).
My comments are simply that racing techniques are to enable you to push you and your machine to the limit.. On a surface designed for good traction, good 'cambers' good vision and no kerbs, ditches, sheep fences, gravel, sheep shit etc over the surface or within feet of the road edge.
The reason the Police roadcraft manual is 'quoted' as a bible? Is because it IS a systematic approach to driving. It is a system that doesn't operate on the 'what works for me' method. It teaches a 'correct' approach to hazzards and driving technique that has a repeatable and reliable outcome when used correctly.
The attached clip is one I was looking for, it shows Vicki from 5th gear a racing driver, and a Police driving instructor having fun.....
It demonstrates very well the difference between the Racing/System styles of approach to driving.


http://www.streetfire.net/video/5th-gear-vicki-drives-with-police-and-they-teach_135964.htm

[Drew]

http://www.streetfire.net/video/5th-gear-vicki-drives-with-police-and-they-teach_135964.htmI think the hot laps they did at the track would have been a better comparison had he been let loose to do a lap his way, then after some tutorial from her. And her doing a lap the way he drove.

But I digress. I'm confused as to how that has anything to do with what we're talking about. It's cars, not the same as a bike at all.

The police pursuit training is certainly relevant in hazard identification though, even though the cop we saw at first didn't seem to give them much heed.

[Fast Eddie]

They are. Plenty of 5 hundies avail for sale nowadays mate. Cheap too.

ha are you serious? I'v never ever seen a 500cc two stroke race/sports bike for sale. The closest I'v got was riding a restored 70's kawasaki h1 triple cyl 2 stroke. Good fun but not really a moto gp bike :D

[Fast Eddie]

ha are you serious? I'v never ever seen a 500cc two stroke race/sports bike for sale. The closest I'v got was riding a restored 70's kawasaki h1 triple cyl 2 stroke. Good fun but not really a moto gp bike :D

I'm gonna take a stab and assume you were meaning 500cc 2T dirt bikes, Crasherfromwayback

[Crasherfromwayback]

I'm gonna take a stab and assume you were meaning 500cc 2T dirt bikes, Crasherfromwayback

Correct!!!

[Berries]

See it's funny, I avoid the rear brakes if I'm on a slippery surface, since it locks so much quicker.
All my examples were low speed in a straight line. I can handle a locked rear wheel doing that, locking the front would have me off instantly.

[quickbuck]

All my examples were low speed in a straight line. I can handle a locked rear wheel doing that, locking the front would have me off instantly. Um, locking the front wheel isn't an excuse to crash a motorcycle either.....

[Brett]

Um, locking the front wheel isn't an excuse to crash a motorcycle either.....

Indeed it shouldn't...however even somewhat leaned over and locking the front would be somewhat hard for the average rider to try and save.

[Berries]

Um, locking the front wheel isn't an excuse to crash a motorcycle either.....
I was talking about going down a steep, muddy and rutted driveway. With a locked rear I can still get down it. With a locked front I'd be knackered. Some days I can hardly get enough traction to get up it.

[GrayWolf]

I think the hot laps they did at the track would have been a better comparison had he been let loose to do a lap his way, then after some tutorial from her. And her doing a lap the way he drove.

But I digress. I'm confused as to how that has anything to do with what we're talking about. It's cars, not the same as a bike at all.

The police pursuit training is certainly relevant in hazard identification though, even though the cop we saw at first didn't seem to give them much heed.

If you look at his lap he WAS driving the Police way,,, and was only 4 seconds slower than a professional racing driver. The point about the Police 'system' isnt confusing,, the 'bible' quoted from, and in so many cases the methods taught (I.A.M.) for both cars and bikes are lifted from the Police Roadcraft Manuals for cars and Motorcycles....They have a system for both.
So if a comparison was made between a racing rider and a Police trained (UK) rider, the outcome would likely be very similar to the clip I attached. The most pertinant point was the way the driver being assessed at the start was travelling at speeds on a public highway of 160-200 kph in a 50kph limit, and avoided the muppet in the silver vehicle with absolutely no drama. The anticipation and planning to negotiate hazzards is probably the most critical skill the Police (UK) teach,,, These skills (threat vectoring, etc) are NOT a racing skill.... I dont think it was 'no heed' for the starting driver, it was anticipated (threat assessment, and already planned for) and avoided with little obvious drama. Look How amazed Vicki was with the instructor's feedback whilst he was giving it the herbs through bends...

[Drew]

The anticipation and planning to negotiate hazzards is probably the most critical skill the Police (UK) teach,,, These skills (threat vectoring, etc) are NOT a racing skill.... I dont think it was 'no heed' for the starting driver, it was anticipated (threat assessment, and already planned for) and avoided with little obvious drama.Not a racing skill? It's different for sure, but there are other bikes on the track, and few of them run at the same pace. Even those that do are not taking the same lines. You come up on some of them bloody quick and need to identify the best way around, and action whilst at the same time keeping the bike as controlled and stable as possible.
Look How amazed Vicki was with the instructor's feedback whilst he was giving it the herbs through bends...That mechanical approach although impressive at how detailed he could commentate, was four seconds a lap slower. That is an eternity on a race track. Lets also not forget that no one has ever heard of that chick, so I'm pretty sure she doesn't set the world on fire with her driving.

I'm not really trying to disagree with you, or your original posts. I wanted to know what book you were quoting, because to quote something and not give reference does nothing to make a point.

I know full well I am not perfect in my riding, and that I could possibly improve by reading these and other books, or doing a rider training course. I just like to point out that no one has the exact formula, that fits everyone.

[Fast Eddie]

Correct!!!

hmm, yamaha WR500 on tradies for 3,800.. is this cheap/the expected price range? Shame I just bought the aprilia rs250.. didn't even think about big bore 2 stroke dirt bikes for a toy :D

[Crasherfromwayback]

hmm, yamaha WR500 on tradies for 3,800.. is this cheap/the expected price range? Shame I just bought the aprilia rs250.. didn't even think about big bore 2 stroke dirt bikes for a toy :D

They're piles of poo. Get a liquid cooled CR500 or a KX500

[quickbuck]

I was talking about going down a steep, muddy and rutted driveway. With a locked rear I can still get down it. With a locked front I'd be knackered.
Okay, fair enough then.
This is understanding the situation, and not putting yourself in a compromised position.....


Some days I can hardly get enough traction to get up it.
This....., well, one wouldn't want to take that out of context ;)

[quickbuck]

Indeed it shouldn't...however even somewhat leaned over and locking the front would be somewhat hard for the average rider to try and save.

Indeed... So, the average rider should never put themselves in that situation in the first place....

[george formby]

They're piles of poo. Get a liquid cooled CR500 or a KX500

No thanks. My 2fiddy scares the crap out of me. I'm praying too hard to do anything other than hang on..:eek5:

[crash99]

Well, again another interesting thread on KB. I guess there are two types of riders - experienced ones and wannabes. Experienced ones ride on the road (and perhaps track), ride lots in many different conditions, and use what they have available to them to ride well and ride safe. This means a combination of front and rear to get the right result. Sometimes more front, sometimes more rear. Wannabes pretend they only ever ride so fast that they never need to use their rear brakes cos the rear wheel is always off the ground. Yeah right. Like you never ride in the wet? (real rider??) And you always brake so hard in the wet that your rear tyre is in the air?? Geez. Get real. What a wank. :bleh:

[ducatilover]

Well, again another interesting thread on KB. I guess there are two types of riders - experienced ones and wannabes. Experienced ones ride on the road (and perhaps track), ride lots in many different conditions, and use what they have available to them to ride well and ride safe. This means a combination of front and rear to get the right result. Sometimes more front, sometimes more rear. Wannabes pretend they only ever ride so fast that they never need to use their rear brakes cos the rear wheel is always off the ground. Yeah right. Like you never ride in the wet? (real rider??) And you always brake so hard in the wet that your rear tyre is in the air?? Geez. Get real. What a wank. :bleh:
Yaeh, Drew and Crasherfromwayback are total wannabe riders. They have nothing on me.

[sugilite]

Wannabes pretend they only ever ride so fast that they never need to use their rear brakes cos the rear wheel is always off the ground. Yeah right. Like you never ride in the wet? (real rider??) And you always brake so hard in the wet that your rear tyre is in the air?? Geez. Get real. What a wank. :bleh:

Interestingly I use the same braking markers in the wet as I do in the dry on the racetrack. Yes, it is slower than in the dry as you cannot get the same drive out of the corners, thus attaining a slower speed by the time the braking marker comes up, but I'm sure a fair few riders would be surprised at just how hard one can brake in the wet, painted lines, man hole covers and slick tar aside if course.
Any dick can squeeze the brake lever hard enough to get the back wheel of a modern sports bike in the air, the question is, how much safety margin do they have, and do they have the nonce and experience to have a plan B when it starts turning to custard?
This thread has been dragging on for an age, really if the original poster got into a severe braking situation, by the time he has processed all the advice given on here, he will have missed his braking point by several hours :facepalm:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Yaeh, Drew and Crasherfromwayback are total wannabe riders. They have nothing on me.

Fast wannabes though!!!

[ducatilover]

Fast wannabes though!!!
Nah, you've got nought on me mate or crash99

[Crasherfromwayback]

Nah, you've got nought on me mate or crash99

Fuck off Mate. Bet I've crashed more often than the pair of you put together!:innocent:

[ducatilover]

Fuck off Mate. Bet I've crashed more often than the pair of you put together!:innocent:
I bow to you. Teach me how to crash more betterer?

[Crasherfromwayback]

I bow to you. Teach me how to crash more betterer?

It's obvious I know what I'm doing you see! Load your mind with hundreds of opinions and ideas, then go and practice them all at the same time. Your ride/crash ratio will slowly but surely match mine.

[Drew]

Fuck off Mate. Bet I've crashed more often than the pair of you put together!:innocent:


I bow to you. Teach me how to crash more betterer?


It's obvious I know what I'm doing you see! Load your mind with hundreds of opinions and ideas, then go and practice them all at the same time. Your ride/crash ratio will slowly but surely match mine.

Crash versus starts, you will ALL bow down!

[ducatilover]

It's obvious I know what I'm doing you see! Load your mind with hundreds of opinions and ideas, then go and practice them all at the same time. Your ride/crash ratio will slowly but surely match mine. But, what if I don't wave?


Crash versus starts, you will ALL bow down! :laugh:

[FROSTY]

Fuck off Mate. Bet I've crashed more often than the pair of you put together!:innocent:
NO NO NO--you me ol mate have now moved up tfrom wannabe to has been :devil2:

[Crasherfromwayback]

NO NO NO--you me ol mate have now moved up tfrom wannabe to has been :devil2:

Got to have been something to be a has been mate! Counts me out.:bleh:

[FROSTY]

Got to have been something to be a has been mate! Counts me out.:bleh:
OOPS my bad--then that makes you an old coulda been then :devil2:
Ohh wait thats me :rolleyes:

[actungbaby]

Of topic

Freddy spencer owns a riding school in los vegas gee to think boy from the south has school there
yes athough christen sharron rode without hanging of they used to say was inconsitant on his bike.
he was the rain master though ...


Was busy at work to reply to this, however.
Firstly, who teaches the teachers? Many on here are able to remember the racing drivers/riders from the 60,70,80's. Historicaly, old style riders didnt climb all over the bike, find clips of riders like John Surtees, Mike the bike Hailwood. Then in the 70-80's bikes had enough power for the Spencer, Roberts, Dunlop era riders to start power sliding then power drifting through corners. It was an evolution of style and machine. Those of you who go on 'track days' are being taught by people who are taught by/from the experiences of those riders.
(Remember please that in the 1970's barry Sheene came off his WORKS Suzuki at 170mph.. in this age, road bikes are faster than that racing bike, and with more engine power).
My comments are simply that racing techniques are to enable you to push you and your machine to the limit.. On a surface designed for good traction, good 'cambers' good vision and no kerbs, ditches, sheep fences, gravel, sheep shit etc over the surface or within feet of the road edge.
The reason the Police roadcraft manual is 'quoted' as a bible? Is because it IS a systematic approach to driving. It is a system that doesn't operate on the 'what works for me' method. It teaches a 'correct' approach to hazzards and driving technique that has a repeatable and reliable outcome when used correctly.
The attached clip is one I was looking for, it shows Vicki from 5th gear a racing driver, and a Police driving instructor having fun.....
It demonstrates very well the difference between the Racing/System styles of approach to driving.


http://www.streetfire.net/video/5th-gear-vicki-drives-with-police-and-they-teach_135964.htm

[Crasherfromwayback]

Of topic

Freddy spencer owns a riding school in los vegas gee to think boy from the south has school there
.

Think you'll find good old Freddy owns fuck all now.

[actungbaby]

yes i heard that ... myself esp when your in 4th gear .. mind you i got iyamaha it 400 to wheelie in 2nd gear from standing or rolling start just saw blue front mudguard dont know how i didnt flip it wasint through experiece think was just reaacted with out thinking mind you shuting trottle of gets front down does the trick ..dam that bike was quick.. and fun...
think more fun if you dont intend to do wheelie if you go to do them usually cant do it
I used to weelie my dads scotter just ride up to judder bar at pak n save carpark but you legs down push down lift up easy..then drag ur feet
okay if your going slow and u can hold the bike from damaging the front end or rims. i whouldint want do on heavy bike
my freind chould wheelie till 4 gear told me he used rear brake to smooth it out he even did on cb 750 that just got on ot
somepeople are just gifted like that.

When it works, use it to bring those awesome wheelies down (which a neither big, nor clever)

This, in effect, pulls the bitches.

[Drew]

Of topic

Freddy spencer owns a riding school in los vegas gee to think boy from the south has school there
yes athough christen sharron rode without hanging of they used to say was inconsitant on his bike.
he was the rain master though ...


yes i heard that ... myself esp when your in 4th gear .. mind you i got iyamaha it 400 to wheelie in 2nd gear from standing or rolling start just saw blue front mudguard dont know how i didnt flip it wasint through experiece think was just reaacted with out thinking mind you shuting trottle of gets front down does the trick ..dam that bike was quick.. and fun...
think more fun if you dont intend to do wheelie if you go to do them usually cant do it
I used to weelie my dads scotter just ride up to judder bar at pak n save carpark but you legs down push down lift up easy..then drag ur feet
okay if your going slow and u can hold the bike from damaging the front end or rims. i whouldint want do on heavy bike
my freind chould wheelie till 4 gear told me he used rear brake to smooth it out he even did on cb 750 that just got on ot
somepeople are just gifted like that.Can someone please tell me if they still teach comprehension at school? I cannot make heads or tails of these two posts.

[ducatilover]

I cannot make heads or tails of these two posts. That gave me an image of a retard (anyone who still lives in Wainuiomata) staring at a fence...

[Drew]

That gave me an image of a retard (anyone who still lives in Wainuiomata) staring at a fence...You callin me a retard, fucker?

ps, I moved out of Wainui around six years ago.

[ducatilover]

You callin me a retard, fucker?

ps, I moved out of Wainui around six years ago.
I moved out of Wainui 8 years ago :bleh:

[crash99]

But, what if I don't wave?

:laugh:

Hey, I've an idea - lets start a thread on waving . . . :eek:

[scumdog]

Hey, I've an idea - lets start a thread on waving . . . :eek:

Hell yeah - a special KB wave!:clap:

[caspernz]

Hey, I've an idea - lets start a thread on waving . . . :eek:

Hahaha, there are times when I can't work out why some riders don't wave back....other times I blame the fluoro vest:laugh::laugh:

[misterO]

Do I wave first or wait for the wave to be given? What if they nod instead of wave? Is it OK to wave to a scooter? If I am swept up in a tsunami should I wave at the people clinging to trees? Would they be mad if I didn't? I'm confused. It's late. Goodnight.

[gatch]

I don't use the rear brake on the domi. Mostly cause it doesn't do anything but get hot. Same with the front actually..

The one time I used the rear brake, angels cried and a small nation ceased to exist. Tragic stuff.

I never have to use any brakes on the road, if I went any slower I'd be traveling backward in time.