Child abuse: when the FUCK are we going to actually take this seriously?

[Brett]

Stay with me here....rant ensues

Yet another story in the news of a South Auckland baby beaten and ultimately killed by a family member with no self control. story here http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10767644

The baby (a 6 month old) woke him up from his sleep, so James Hemana grabbed the kid by the front of his onesie pajamas and proceeded to "violently punches him back and forth repeatedly before dropping him on to the bed'' and at another instant picked the baby up by the leg and shook him violently. All of this because the baby cried and woke him up.
When the mother tried to intervened, he responded with "I don't give a fuck bitch, I'll waste all of you's".

THEN the dumb arse mother, didn't do a single thing to seek medical attention for the kid that was "Most of the time he was effectively lifeless and unresponsive.'' and whose eyes would roll back in his head and he would vomit (brain injury anyone??) 5 days later after finally going to hospital, the kid dies.

This type of story is far too common. There is far too much fucking talk in this country on cracking down on this sort of thing. These CUNTS (a word I do not use often) will get a prison sentence tantamount to a slap on the wrist, there will be much wringing of hands and some public outcry and then in a few weeks/months there will be yet another case.

The facts in point:
- man, an adult gets woken up by 6month old baby
-adult male loses temper and beats baby severely
- adult male then threatens to kill mother (guessing here by the use of the term "you's") and children? other family members?
- mother does fuck all to get child seen to.
- child dies.

When is this issue actually going to be taken seriously? When will the mother fuckers who do this sort of thing actually be be handed a sentence that is representative of the crimes they have committed? (IMO death by rack and quartering would not be adequate, but hey, we live in a civilized world with justice systems designed to be fair and all:shutup:) An adult who cannot control themselves and KNOWINGLY beats an infant into a brain damage stupor DOES NOT DESERVE TO SEE THE LIGHT OF DAY AGAIN. Not until he is too old to be a threat anymore...if then even. I wish the cunt would have the balls to pick on someone who can fight back...I would happily fuck his day up for him. (See American History X - bite the curb....)

All ranting aside...and yes there is a bit there...

What can we do? It seems the justice system is tied and it seems the politicians and government are not willing to do what it takes to deal with these people and to educate the people in these communities.

[White trash]

Makes ya sick don't it?

[Brett]

Makes ya sick don't it?

Makes me incredibly angry and frustrated. Also makes me feel powerless to help...however I refuse to accept this, there must be something that even one person can do to change this.

[Paul in NZ]

Basically I agree with you except I'd consider capital punishment to be waaay more cost effective. It certainly 'breaks the cycle'.. but.....

Sadly its bigger than that. There is a huge problem with these disfunctional people. (although the breeding function appears to be 'on' all the bloody time. The issues are nearly always multilayered and complex and to be fair the picture you have painted with the first post might no be the whole story or how it happened.

Regadless of that though I say don't stop at child abuse. These violent stupid fucks need to be culled and seperated to stop the pollution spreading through productive society. Damned if I know how but the cycle has to stop.

[imdying]

Meh, doesn't bother me in the slightest.

You let people who, like it or not, aren't as developed as even the majority, breed as much as they bloody well like, whether they can support such breeding or not.

Then you try to apply the majorities moral values to this basically sub human under class.

Then you bitch when apes act like apes.

Finally, when I suggest that perhaps they should be subjected to culling or compulsory sterilisation at the very least, you look at me like I'm the monster.

Society can't have it both ways. Until they accept that, the unfortunate bottom of the barrel scrapings that society allow to exist, will keep on killing their kids with regularity. I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

[Brett]

Basically I agree with you except I'd consider capital punishment to be waaay more cost effective. It certainly 'breaks the cycle'.. but.....

Sadly its bigger than that. There is a huge problem with these disfunctional people. (although the breeding function appears to be 'on' all the bloody time. The issues are nearly always multilayered and complex and to be fair the picture you have painted with the first post might no be the whole story or how it happened.

Regadless of that though I say don't stop at child abuse. These violent stupid fucks need to be culled and seperated to stop the pollution spreading through productive society. Damned if I know how but the cycle has to stop.

No, you are absolutely correct. My first post and the NZ Herald article are only the tip of the iceberg with regards to the underlying social issues. This is simply the tangible evidence of a myriad of issues and a whole lot of social issues that have not been addressed.
The issues are slowly being rooted deeper and deeper in society and in peoples behaviour. You used the perfect word..."dysfunction" because these people are completely and utterly dysfunctional, and the environments that they grow up in are completely dysfunctional. We are facing individuals that have been raised dysfunctionally from birth in toxic environments. If this is allowed to continue, then the social decline will only continue and grow.

That is part of my frustration, the issues around this are getting massive. There is no silver bullet. How do you fix the family unit and make it a functional place with love and where respect, hard work and discipline is taught when you can't even connect properly with the adults who run these households because of their lazyness, mental issues, drug issues and general fucked up outlooks on life.
If only one could remove the children from these environments and break the cycle, but alas, they are likely to end the products of their own environments (if not worse) and pass this legacy onto their own kids.

[Brett]

Meh, doesn't bother me in the slightest.

You let people who, like it or not, aren't as developed as even the majority, breed as much as they bloody well like, whether they can support such breeding or not.

Then you try to apply the majorities moral values to this basically sub human under class.

Then you bitch when apes act like apes.

Finally, when I suggest that perhaps they should be subjected to culling or compulsory sterilisation at the very least, you look at me like I'm the monster.

Society can't have it both ways. Until they accept that, the unfortunate bottom of the barrel scrapings that society allow to exist, will keep on killing their kids with regularity. I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

I get where you're coming from and I agree in part. The thing for me is simply that a baby born into this world does not NEED to end up like its parents. In part we (citizens) enable it by not taking a firmer stance on these fuck knuckles and insisting that basic social morals and imperatives be followed...ie...the mother of this child should be sterilized since she could not care for her kid adequately. The man who killed the kid should be set adrift in the ocean in a small boat with nothing but a bottle of water and a fishing line.

[BoristheBiter]

54 witnesses, 2 week trial, WTF???

ten minute's that's all that's needed.

[imdying]

The thing for me is simply that a baby born into this world does not NEED to end up like its parents.The problem is, that's like asking me to launch a rocket to Jupiter. I have some vague understand of the concepts around that, but I'm just not equipped with the mental facilities to ever come close to solving the problem.

Ok, how about flipping it over... given that these people will never be able to operate inside accepted societies norms, why not put them somewhere like a reserve where they can govern and live within their own moral compasses? The only question is how to determine who fits their, and who can make it in regular society?

[nodrog]

The problem is, that's like asking me to launch a rocket to Jupiter. I have some vague understand of the concepts around that, but I'm just not equipped with the mental facilities to ever come close to solving the problem.

What if the rocket was full of child bashing coconuts, surely you would give it a go then? And hey, if it blows up on the launchpad, oh well, try again next week.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Banning the smacking of children will help.

[imdying]

What if the rocket was full of child bashing coconuts, surely you would give it a go then? And hey, if it blows up on the launchpad, oh well, try again next week.Sure, if I got community service for running a red light or whatever, I'd give it a go :eek:

[blue rider]

Meh, doesn't bother me in the slightest.

You let people who, like it or not, aren't as developed as even the majority, inseminate as much as they bloody well like, whether they can support such spreading of sperm or not.

Then you try to apply the majorities moral values to this basically sub human under class.

Then you bitch when apes act like apes.

Finally, when I suggest that perhaps they should be subjected to culling or compulsory castration at the very least, you look at me like I'm the monster.

Society can't have it both ways. Until they accept that, the unfortunate bottom of the barrel scrapings that society allow to exist, will keep on killing their kids with regularity. I'm not going to lose sleep over it.


fixed your post to better reflect the gender of the abuser in the quoted article

[imdying]

fixed your post to better reflect the gender of the abuser in the quoted articleInteresting point to pick :blink:


It was about five days later that Ms Taylor took her son to hospital. Mr Shaw said she was prevented from going earlier by Hemana.Personally I see blood on her hands too, but YMMV... I would wager $100 that 95% of people in their neighbourhood owns a higher spec cellphone than I do. She could have summoned free help at any stage.

Perhaps if they were allowed to self govern in the manner that they see fit, in communities no larger than one where everyone basically knows everyone else, they could sort these people out in their own way? I could be wrong, but someone on here will likely as not have some info on child abuse rates in tribal societies.

[Katman]

On Thursday or Fridays news there was an article on the latest case of infanticide where the family are doing a Kahui and saying nothing.

Haven't seen the news since. Has there been any development?

[Crasherfromwayback]

On Thursday or Fridays news there was an article on the latest case of infanticide where the family are doing a Kahui and saying nothing.

Haven't seen the news since. Has there been any development?

Same old. Four aresholes stonewalling the police.

[Brett]

On Thursday or Fridays news there was an article on the latest case of infanticide where the family are doing a Kahui and saying nothing.

Haven't seen the news since. Has there been any development?

In the herald today.

[Brett]

Same old. Four aresholes stonewalling the police.

Let some good old ex-spec ops interrogators loose on them. They will find out the truth very quickly. I bet that under the "hard man" exterior these clowns will be as soft as silly putty once someone actually puts the heat on them.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Let some good old ex-spec ops interrogators loose on them. They will find out the truth very quickly. I bet that under the "hard man" exterior these clowns will be as soft as silly putty once someone actually puts the heat on them.

Waterboard the cunts. It'd work wonders.

[imdying]

Holding them indefinitely for perjury until they cough.

[blue rider]

Interesting point to pick :blink:

Personally I see blood on her hands too, but YMMV... I would wager $100 that 95% of people in their neighbourhood owns a higher spec cellphone than I do. She could have summoned free help at any stage.

Perhaps if they were allowed to self govern in the manner that they see fit, in communities no larger than one where everyone basically knows everyone else, they could sort these people out in their own way? I could be wrong, but someone on here will likely as not have some info on child abuse rates in tribal societies.

i agree with you, however what happened in these five days we don't know. obviously when she tried to intervene he threatend her and her other offspring, so there is that.

Lets not forget that it was a bloke who beat the life out of a 6 month old.

what gets me in the reactions after these abuse cases is that the call is generally to have a certain segment of the population to stop breeding, to be sterilized - this is basically saying society should decide which women are allowed to breed, no mention of the Men who in many cases are the actual abusing part.


What I showed you was how your message reads if we would be talking about the actual abuser - the man - being stopped from procreating - permanently.

You obviously don't like the idea of castration, and I can't fault you, the idea of sterilization is just as unpleasant.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Holding them indefinitely for perjury until they cough.

Gotta feed them etc doing that. Waterboarding is quick and cheap.

[blue rider]

as for punishment,

lock them away and loose the key.

[Crasherfromwayback]

as for punishment,

lock them away and loose the key.

Once you've cut their balls off.

[Edbear]

Interesting point to pick :blink:

Personally I see blood on her hands too, but YMMV... I would wager $100 that 95% of people in their neighbourhood owns a higher spec cellphone than I do. She could have summoned free help at any stage.

Perhaps if they were allowed to self govern in the manner that they see fit, in communities no larger than one where everyone basically knows everyone else, they could sort these people out in their own way? I could be wrong, but someone on here will likely as not have some info on child abuse rates in tribal societies.

You'd be surprised at the dynamics of women in abusive relationships. The sheer terror and hoplessness they feel paralyzes them and it takes a very strong woman with a huge amount of courage to speak out. These men are totally without conscience and cruel in the extreme. Yes they are cowards and will back off when confronted by a man who can look them in the eye, but never understimate their viscousness to anyone and anything weaker.

There are clear signs and how they regard animals is a sign far too often overlooked and minimised. They are often created by parents who try to protect them from the consequences of their actions, often due to the mother's fear of what the father will do to the boy if he found out about the boy's misedemanour. So mother covers up for him and hides it from his father, and the boy grows up knowing his mother will always shield him from any consequences and as he gets bigger he can then bully and manipulate his mother.

He grows up without conscience and without regard for consequences and without any vestige of respect for any kind of authority. Too often, mother has created a monster out of misguided love. A violent father contributes as does the total lack of family interaction where kids are tolerated as long as they shut up and leave the adults alone.

[blue rider]

Once you've cut their balls off.

ok - why not

[Newbi]

Easy decision, caught out doing that to a tiny human being, Lie them down place 12 gauge shotgun into their mouth, pull the trigger. I generously offer myself up for that particular job, Cheers:laugh:

[imdying]

i agree with you, however what happened in these five days we don't know. obviously when she tried to intervene he threatend her and her other offspring, so there is that.Rubbish. You're telling me she couldn't send a text or make a call whilst sitting down for a piss?


Lets not forget that it was a bloke who beat the life out of a 6 month old.And a woman that let him get away with it... and a society that is protecting them.


what gets me in the reactions after these abuse cases is that the call is generally to have a certain segment of the population to stop breeding, to be sterilized - this is basically saying society should decide which women are allowed to breed, no mention of the Men who in many cases are the actual abusing part.No, that's your one track man hating mind going off on an unrelated tangent.


You obviously don't like the idea of castrationPlease, do quote me which bit made that obvious to you :blink:

This isn't a gender issue, you're off your rocker if you think it is.

[Brett]

This isn't a gender issue, you're off your rocker if you think it is.

Damn straight, this is not a gender issue, although men would be more strongly represented. Ask anyone who is a paramedic, cop or doctor, there are plenty of women abusers out there as well. I confronted a woman at a traffic light whose child was jumping around the car (with windows open) and nearly fell out...mother didn't care at all, and she did see it happen. When I asked her why she lets her 3 year old act like that in the car, she threatened to "give me the bash" (nearly laughed at her...)

There are plenty of men AND women who are abusers and who contribute to the dysfunctional environment that the kids grow up in. Enablers are 99% as bad as the abusers themselves.

[JimO]

can they not all be charged with murder?? im sure the real story would emerge pretty soon, everybody baggs the police constantly but the police have to deal with people like this on a daily basis, im sure it wears them down

[blue rider]

Rubbish. You're telling me she couldn't send a text or make a call whilst sitting down for a piss?

would not know if she could.

And a woman that let him get away with it... and a society that is protecting them.

its her fault that the sick fuck beat a baby to pulp.....poor schmuck could not control himself - and society what has got society to do with what happens in peoples private dwellings?

No, that's your one track man hating mind going off on an unrelated tangent.

ohhhhh no no no, men are good to have around.......they have their uses :innocent:

Please, do quote me which bit made that obvious to you :blink:

your reaction

This isn't a gender issue, you're off your rocker if you think it is.

:facepalm:

bored now

[Brett]

can they not all be charged with murder?? im sure the real story would emerge pretty soon, everybody baggs the police constantly but the police have to deal with people like this on a daily basis, im sure it wears them down

I'm not bagging the police at all, I have first hand seen how their hands can be tied. They do a bloody good job in general given the constraints they can be made to work within.

[blue rider]

Damn straight, this is not a gender issue, although men would be more strongly represented. Ask anyone who is a paramedic, cop or doctor, there are plenty of women abusers out there as well. I confronted a woman at a traffic light whose child was jumping around the car (with windows open) and nearly fell out...mother didn't care at all, and she did see it happen. When I asked her why she lets her 3 year old act like that in the car, she threatened to "give me the bash" (nearly laughed at her...)

There are plenty of men AND women who are abusers and who contribute to the dysfunctional environment that the kids grow up in. Enablers are 99% as bad as the abusers themselves.

and in many cases the men are abusers, in many cases the women are abusers.

but if we talk about stopping people from breeding, promoting sterilization as a means of population control it becomes very quickly a gender issue . as it is the female doing the breeding, male is doing the inseminating.

its not that hard. In the case of this abuse, I opt for castration, followed up with a lock down till the physical end of the perpetrator.
Any kids at the house of the mother away to safety, and lock up for her, maybe with some counseling for abuse thrown in.

anyways this time the abuser was a man.

[Madness]

Blah, blah, blah.

I think you took Imdying's reference to "sterilisation" in his initial post in this thread too literally. Us blokes don't specifically relate the use of the word "sterilisation" to the removal of a womans reproductive ability, at least I don't.

Oh, BTW - this has everything to do with society.

[Brett]

I think you took Imdying's reference to "sterilisation" in his initial post in this thread too literally. Us blokes don't generally relate the use of the word "sterilisation" to the removal of a womans reproductive ability, at least I don't.

Oh, BTW - this has everything to do with society.

On. The. Money.

[pete376403]

That is part of my frustration, the issues around this are getting massive. There is no silver bullet. .

Doesn't need a silver bullet - plain ol' lead ones are just as effective, and much cheaper.

[blue rider]

I think you took Imdying's reference to "sterilisation" in his initial post in this thread too literally. Us blokes don't generally relate the use of the word "sterilisation" to the removal of a womans reproductive ability, at least I don't.

Oh, BTW - this has everything to do with society.

Words have meanings....this word means what it means.


society will/does have no problem with a certain amount of abuse.....but we like to think ourselves better than that. and from time to time, a sick fuck pops out of obscurity and shows us that our ideas of human dignity and human rights are just that - ideas.

[SPman]

someone on here will likely as not have some info on child abuse rates in tribal societies.
Well....the European tribe seem to be responsible for a tad over 50% of all child abuse cases....they just aren't deemed as "newsworthy" as someone with a non white skin.

We are facing individuals that have been raised dysfunctionally from birth in toxic environments.
We are also facing individuals that have NOT been raised thusly - but still do this sort of shit!

It's all about power over others and self esteem - or lack of it!
Buggered if I know how you stop it - other than having a cohesive, inclusive society that actually looks out for each other...........:brick:

[Deano]

Well....the European tribe seem to be responsible for a tad over 50% of all child abuse cases....they just aren't deemed as "newsworthy" as someone with a non white skin.


I've heard that from a few people now.

Can you provide a reference or qualify that ?

[FJRider]

Haven't seen the news since. Has there been any development?

Can't say ... :innocent:

[Hitcher]

To survive and flourish, domestic violence needs a shadow.

A shadow is made up of people who know something's not right but ignore it. Eyeball your neighbours or your sister's boyfriend and say you've got some concerns. If they tell you to fuck off, tell them you're watching and listening. Once you've got EVIDENCE, go to the Police.

Domestic violence is about people. People who live in our communities. People we know. People we may love. That makes it our business to get it sorted. It starts and finishes with us. And it's not all right.

[nzspokes]

I'm not bagging the police at all, I have first hand seen how their hands can be tied. They do a bloody good job in general given the constraints they can be made to work within.

I agree, got a mate that worked on Peds. And he is a big dude. I dont know how he could stop himself from violence towards them.

Poor Cops have to work with both hands tied behind there backs in situations like this.:Police:

[Brett]

To survive and flourish, domestic violence needs a shadow.

A shadow is made up of people who know something's not right but ignore it. Eyeball your neighbours or your sister's boyfriend and say you've got some concerns. If they tell you to fuck off, tell them you're watching and listening. Once you've got EVIDENCE, go to the Police.

Domestic violence is about people. People who live in our communities. People we know. People we may love. That makes it our business to get it sorted. It starts and finishes with us. And it's not all right.

You're right mate, but the problem is that we have a whole bunch of people in society who allow the shadow to remain. Look at the NZ Herald today, the latest case of child abuse is being stone walled yet again. Those of us who would speak up are not the ones who need to be targeted. If someone I knew was a victim or perpetrator of domestic abuse, I would certainly speak up. Many housegolds, such as in the depths of South Auckland, would not do this.

As I have mentioned on here before, my significant other is a doctor who works in South Auckland. She has made the comment a few times that the mind set around 'the expected norm' is just so different amongst these poorer homes. For example, she sees a lot of really sick kids, the families don't bring the children in for treatment because in their home culture kids get sick and sometimes die, this is part of life. There is a lack of recognition that something can actually be done to help them. I suspect that the same could be said for D. violence. It is a part of the norm of their societies. She made an interesting comment the other week that a lot of the "beaten" woman that she has seen/spoken to are of Indian, Asian or Middle Eastern origin. (Given their outlook towards women, this isn't such a surprise...)

[Brett]

I agree, got a mate that worked on Peds. And he is a big dude. I dont know how he could stop himself from violence towards them.

Poor Cops have to work with both hands tied behind there backs in situations like this.:Police:

There are situations where they must really struggle to not deliver some roadside justice.

[Pedrostt500]

No matter how we crunch the numbers, or write the laws, at the end of the day we are dealing with a small percentage, that do not, and will not give a fuck about any one else, They are the only ones who can Choose to change their ways, and utill they choose, then they should be locked away for the rest of their natural lives, yes they may have very sad stories about growing up, and some stories may be real tear jerkers, but their story about their past IS NOT AN EXCUSE to be VIOLENT, particurly to those who are DEFENCELESS.

I also think New Zealand needs a National day of shame,( Not marked with a holiday,) with a monument to the children who have lost their lives in family violence, and I would place this monument on the lawn in front of Parliment, with the names and ages of all children going back as far as records will allow, and on the anniversary of the National day of Shame, the names would be read out and printed in all the countries medias.

[Grasshopperus]

I agree with you entirely Brett. I read a similar article today on my lunch break and was almost brought to tears reading what happened to the poor young pup. This quote especially brought it home "The Crown also walked the jury through evidence booklets, including pictures of Cezar's vomit-stained blankets and a mobile phone picture of his 'last smile' ".

In this case the sterilisation (of the male) wouldn't have done much, he was not the natural father of this baby.

This case is currently before a jury, the murderer (Hemana) has pleaded guilty to manslaughter but not murder, as he "didn't know that shaking Cezar was likely to cause his death".

I really hope the jury (and then the judge for sentencing) nail this bastard.



Hemana's lawyer Steve Bonnar said he had no doubt his client was the most hated man in the courtroom where the air was "thick with prejudice".
He said the jury would have to strive "very, very hard" to ensure they understood their own emotions and try their best to separate those out from the cold, clinical decision they would have to make.


Reading between the lines even the goddamn lawyer isn't trying to excuse Remana's behaviour.

The gallows I say.

[SS90]

fixed your post to better reflect the gender of the abuser in the quoted article

Hate on Men much, Sweetheart?

Perhaps the Woman in question would be better served by being more choosy on who she lets into her panties/life.:love:

[SS90]

anyways this time the abuser was a man.

This statement, is as ignorant as much of what you have written on this thread... let me clarify.....

This woman failed to give the nessesities of life to her child, she failed to contact the myriad of support there is out there, she let her kid DIE over 5 friggen days....

No, she is not a victim, no matter how much you want to suggest it, she is indeed guilty of child abuse.... It is fair to suggest that this was not an isoltaed incident.

I cannot understand how or why a parent (of any sex) would not die for their child, and, as such, put their child safety ahead of their own.

This is just a sign of the current society.... "Me first"....this seems to include many peoples kids too.

[meteor]

So if a house full of [4] people all obviously know what happened but make statements that are false or just fail to say, why can't they all be charged with the manslaughter? There is a law that allows police to charge everyone in a car for DIC if the actual drunk driver isn't able to be identified.
You'd think that after the 'tight 12' fiasco the laws would be amended to allow affirmative action. Self incrimination no, but charge them all or hold them all in custody until one breaks silence. The rights of the individual outweighing the rights of society (or the victim) yet again.

[Paul in NZ]

Christine Rankin made an interesting point on TV last night. She was quoting Pat Booth and I cant remember it exactly word for word but basically it was along the lines of 'If every year 6 to 10 politicians were killed and 40 were seriously assaulted, the whole country would be turned inside out until this 'outrage' was stamped out'...

I tend to agree with her.

Whats more outrageous is that we tax payers are usually funding these arseholes. I'm sorry - its about time we had some kind of WoF on a persons citizenship tied into their 'rights'... They have to be up to a minimum specification before getting any extra from society. I don't expect people to be perfect or even like me but I do expect them to sacrifice their own comfort for their kids

[Deano]

Well....the European tribe seem to be responsible for a tad over 50% of all child abuse cases....they just aren't deemed as "newsworthy" as someone with a non white skin.


Check out figure 4 bro.

http://www.nzchildren.co.nz/injuries.php

Or are the hospitals in on this 'conspiracy' as well.

[PrincessBandit]

Hate on Men much, Sweetheart?

Perhaps the Woman in question would be better served by being more choosy on who she lets into her panties/life.:love:

Both sides of the equation eh. Perhaps men should also take more responsibility for who they stick their pricks into - or are they completely unrestricted in their freedom of who to impregnate? (Even in, an I use this term very very loosely, a "couple" relationship women can have sex forced on them. Not necessarily as a violent rape, but coercion, fear, or "it's my right to have sex with you")

Men and women have many and varied reasons for why they indulge in baby-making activities i.e. sex. Procreation can occur regardless of most types of contraception, and then you have those who just don't give a **** who they ****. It's not just one parties concern regarding the consequences of having sex.

[avgas]

There is a huge problem with these disfunctional people. (although the breeding function appears to be 'on' all the bloody time. The issues are nearly always multilayered and complex and to be fair the picture you have painted with the first post might no be the whole story or how it happened.
Shock collars stop dogs barking.

How about a cock ring with a tazer?

[avgas]

In this case the sterilisation (of the male) wouldn't have done much, he was not the natural father of this baby.
I wonder if they said the same about HIS dad.
These solutions never solve the problem in 1 generation........they solve them later on.

Very hard to continue the circle of violence if you remove the next generation.

[Swoop]

A family "group" who refuse to talk, should be charged with perverting the course of justice (http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1961/0043/latest/DLM329005.html)and locked up in solitary confinement until their court date.

A message needs to be sent to these fuckers.



Shock collars stop dogs barking.
How about a cock ring with a tazer?
It would probably fall off.

Zip-ties around the throat, done up nice and snug, would be more efficient...

[MSTRS]

...the murderer (Hemana) has pleaded guilty to manslaughter but not murder, as he "didn't know that shaking Cezar was likely to cause his death".


What happened to 'ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law' ?

As far as the Kahui-type/s, it's high time the law is applied to all involved in this sort of shit.
One of them did it, the rest are all equally guilty as accessories after the fact.
Charge them all with murder, and those that can prove they didn't do the actual killing get the charge 'reduced'...

[Brett]

Charge them all with murder, and those that can prove they didn't do the actual killing get the charge 'reduced'...

I like that part.

[no_8wire]

Check out figure 4 bro.

http://www.nzchildren.co.nz/injuries.php

Or are the hospitals in on this 'conspiracy' as well.

I get the following from the Table 1 below Figure 4.
Euro - 35%
Asian - 3%
Maori -50%
Pacific - 12%

Percentages on total number 2006-2010 Hospital Admission assault/neglect etc

[MSTRS]

I get the following from the Table 1 below Figure 4.
Euro - 35%
Asian - 3%
Maori -50%
Pacific - 12%

Percentages on total number 2006-2010 Hospital Admission assault/neglect etc

Now factor ethnicity by population percentages...
Hint: Maori are about 20% of the total pop. with 50% of the total admissions...

[SS90]

Both sides of the equation eh. Perhaps men should also take more responsibility for who they stick their pricks into - or are they completely unrestricted in their freedom of who to impregnate? (Even in, an I use this term very very loosely, a "couple" relationship women can have sex forced on them. Not necessarily as a violent rape, but coercion, fear, or "it's my right to have sex with you")

Men and women have many and varied reasons for why they indulge in baby-making activities i.e. sex. Procreation can occur regardless of most types of contraception, and then you have those who just don't give a **** who they ****. It's not just one parties concern regarding the consequences of having sex.

I agree with you on this, it certainly does take two to tango, (as they say)

I just fail to understand why so many "at risk" members of society continue to breed at such unsustainable levels, and why, in my short lifetime it has become so commonplace for this same demograph to start killing their kids...it seems like some sort of cult..... get a benefit, have a kid with some P addicted oxygen thief, contribute to your childs fatal injuries, then not take it to a Hospital and let it die.

Yes, you a right an abusive relationship is hard to get out of, however a reasonably intelligent person can (generally) spot a P addicted violent offender from a dedicated, loving Father.

Prevention is better than the cure!

[Deano]

I get the following from the Table 1 below Figure 4.
Euro - 35%
Asian - 3%
Maori -50%
Pacific - 12%

Percentages on total number 2006-2010 Hospital Admission assault/neglect etc

I can't see how you got those figures ? See below.

"In New Zealand during 2006–2010, hospital admissions for injuries arising from the assault, neglect or maltreatment of children were significantly higher for males, Maori > Pacific > European > Asian children, and those living in average / more deprived (NZDep decile 2–10) areas (Table 1).

Similarly, during 2000–2010 hospital admissions for injuries arising from the assault, neglect or maltreatment of children were consistently higher for Maori and Pacific > European > Asian children, with rates also being higher for Maori than for Pacific children from 2004–05 onwards (Figure 4)."

[RDJ]

No matter how we crunch the numbers, or write the laws, at the end of the day we are dealing with a small percentage, that do not, and will not give a fuck about any one else, They are the only ones who can Choose to change their ways, and utill they choose, then they should be locked away for the rest of their natural lives, yes they may have very sad stories about growing up, and some stories may be real tear jerkers, but their story about their past IS NOT AN EXCUSE to be VIOLENT, particurly to those who are DEFENCELESS.

I also think New Zealand needs a National day of shame,( Not marked with a holiday,) with a monument to the children who have lost their lives in family violence, and I would place this monument on the lawn in front of Parliment, with the names and ages of all children going back as far as records will allow, and on the anniversary of the National day of Shame, the names would be read out and printed in all the countries medias.

You can't shame the shameless. Best you (we) can do is deprive them of the finance to loll about all day getting ready to beat on 'their' children and 'their' spouses; and if they still do, deprive them of their liberty (both spouses) and tire them out with hard labour in a harsh environment.

[SPman]

Perhaps men should also take more responsibility for who they stick their pricks into :killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme :killingme:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

I think most of them work on the "if it's got a pulse - fuck it" principle.......

[Usarka]

I get the following from the Table 1 below Figure 4.
Euro - 35%
Asian - 3%
Maori -50%
Pacific - 12%

Percentages on total number 2006-2010 Hospital Admission assault/neglect etc

You're basing on totals which is a misleading comparisin. You need to use the Rate Per 100,000 column to get a meaningful comparison.

For every 100,000 kids of x ethnicity, y are abused.
Maori 39.1
Pacific 24.4
Euro 11.8
Asian 6.6

[BoristheBiter]

You're basing on totals which is a misleading comparisin. You need to use the Rate Per 100,000 column to get a meaningful comparison.

For every 100,000 kids of x ethnicity, y are abused.
Maori 39.1
Pacific 24.4
Euro 11.8
Asian 6.6

Anyway you want to look at it Maori and pacific islanders are over represented.

[imdying]

I think most of them work on the "if it's got a pulse - fuck it" principle.......Wait, what? We're checking for pulses now? :blink:


Percentages on total number 2006-2010 Hospital Admission assault/neglect etcThat is not weighted against the population size of each group, which you either know and you're being deceitful, or you don't and you're just a simpleton.

Regardless, most scary is that the group with the largest representation beat them down and don't take them to hospital but leave them to die instead, so the true figures are undoubtedly even worse that those figures make out.

[Pedrostt500]

You can't shame the shameless. Best you (we) can do is deprive them of the finance to loll about all day getting ready to beat on 'their' children and 'their' spouses; and if they still do, deprive them of their liberty (both spouses) and tire them out with hard labour in a harsh environment.

I Covered tha Unshame-able by saying "they do not and will not give a fuck about any one else".
I have no problems with Hard Labour being brought back into our Prison System, there is alot to be said for hard work for idol minds, breaking rocks and splitting fire wood with an axe.

[munster]

Where's the Equaliser when you need him. This PC bullshit nanny state has to (but won't) take their fair portion of the blame.

I don't have 'real' answers, I can't fix the world, all I know is that one time when my brother in law flipped out on my son (after his partner had comiitted suicide) I had to be held back. According to the in-laws, I 'over reacted' and 'it wasn't as bad as Aaron made out'. Fuck them, they weren't there, I was. They were just like the 'shadow' majority that like to let things slide. I did everything I could to protect my son and I would have done more had there been less witnesses. It's a long story that involves a jet ski and me chasing him down in my boat on Lake Ohakuri, best told over a beer or three.

I agree, a national day of shame would be a good idea, unfortunatley it would be a wasted message on those that need to hear it most, like drink driving / teenage driving adverts.

[Pedrostt500]

I'm a realist, a National day of Shame will not penetrate the unconsiousness of the Retards who think kids are punching bags.

A National Day of Shame would bring the issue front and centre to the rest of the Nation, it will get debated at least once a year, and possibly used to spring board initiatives, to curb this behaviour.
A Monument to the Children who have lost their lives to child abuse, needs to be erected on the front lawn of Parliment, so our countries law makers don't forget the defensless and vunrebal in our country.

Regardless of ethnicity these are New Zealand Children who are dying at the hands of those, who should be caring , loving and protecting them. In my eyes there is no greater crime than to Murder a defensless child, becuse the potential of that childs future will never be realised, and lost to us as a Nation.

[Paul in NZ]

GAH!

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10768048

[Katman]

Interesting to read at the end of that article that there was another case of infanticide back in 2006 where people refused to co-operate with the police and no-one was charged.

Where the fuck has accountability gone?

[oneofsix]

I'm a realist, a National day of Shame will not penetrate the unconsiousness of the Retards who think kids are punching bags.

A National Day of Shame would bring the issue front and centre to the rest of the Nation, it will get debated at least once a year, and possibly used to spring board initiatives, to curb this behaviour.
A Monument to the Children who have lost their lives to child abuse, needs to be erected on the front lawn of Parliment, so our countries law makers don't forget the defensless and vunrebal in our country.

Regardless of ethnicity these are New Zealand Children who are dying at the hands of those, who should be caring , loving and protecting them. In my eyes there is no greater crime than to Murder a defensless child, becuse the potential of that childs future will never be realised, and lost to us as a Nation.

Our attitude to child abuse is changing. People are more likely to see what was once considered a thrashing as child abuse. But, as with drink driving where most of us will not however there is still a 'hard' core (soft cock core IMPO) that still do, there will always be a few loses that abuse.


Interesting to read at the end of that article that there was another case of infanticide back in 2006 where people refused to co-operate with the police and no-one was charged.

Where the fuck has accountability gone?

Good fucking question. If you murdered someone and I assisted you in hiding the evidence I would still be guilty of murder. So what's the difference here? IMO it is that our attitude to child abuse is still changing. Most of us, including the :Police: involved I suspect, would feel she assisted him in murdering JJ but the authorities (as in rules, procedures etc, not people) are still catching up. This is what annoyed me about Sue B and section 52, the focus went the wrong way, punishing the parent trying to stop the tantrum rather than dealing with the child abuser.

[Paul in NZ]

I’ll agree that Sue B’s ‘anti smacking’ law was a bit of a ‘wide’ when it came to addressing this issue as it diverted attention away from theses cases and into the suburbs. Part of the problem is in defining what is and isn’t ‘child abuse’.

I can’t go into specifics because its my own family and it’s a tad raw but trust me – I genuinely feel that parental stupidity falls into the category of ‘child abuse’ many many times. Our children get damaged because some people just don't have the life skills or resources to manage their own behaviours and so are completely overwhelmed by parenthood. Its sad that these people usually can't even see their glaring deficiencies and so make very poor choices about even having babies.. Well perhaps ‘stupidity’ is a bit strong as I doubt these people are truly fully aware of what they are doing. And that’s getting to the nub of the problem – there are just so many dysfunctional people. Normal (ie productive) society does produce cases of deliberate child abuse but it’s the ‘stupid ‘neglect that’s the burning issue. ‘We’ can’t understand it as quite frankly we know more about the social activities and structures of mountain gorilla society than we do about our own. Its like somehow we don’t want to acknowledge that this underclass even exist.

I’m fucked if I know what to do about it…..

[oneofsix]

I’ll agree that Sue B’s ‘anti smacking’ law was a bit of a ‘wide’ when it came to addressing this issue as it diverted attention away from theses cases and into the suburbs. Part of the problem is in defining what is and isn’t ‘child abuse’.

I can’t go into specifics because its my own family and it’s a tad raw but trust me – I genuinely feel that parental stupidity falls into the category of ‘child abuse’ many many times. Our children get damaged because some people just don't have the life skills or resources to manage their own behaviours and so are completely overwhelmed by parenthood. Its sad that these people usually can't even see their glaring deficiencies and so make very poor choices about even having babies.. Well perhaps ‘stupidity’ is a bit strong as I doubt these people are truly fully aware of what they are doing. And that’s getting to the nub of the problem – there are just so many dysfunctional people. Normal (ie productive) society does produce cases of deliberate child abuse but it’s the ‘stupid ‘neglect that’s the burning issue. ‘We’ can’t understand it as quite frankly we know more about the social activities and structures of mountain gorilla society than we do about our own. Its like somehow we don’t want to acknowledge that this underclass even exist.

I’m fucked if I know what to do about it…..

No silver bullet I'm afraid. Part of the issue is the move from the social family to the nuclear family and whilst most people can find enough support to survive this change means the safety net of the village society isn't there to assist those that need help, some are also beyond help and these are cases where the village would take over. The old saying about it taking a village to raise a child.

[Paul in NZ]

Of course women have got to play their part (not blaming them of course) and NOT hanging out with loonies...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/6051875/Womans-hair-tied-to-tow-bar

FFS - you would think they would know better?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/6051662/Female-guards-in-affairs-with-prisoners

[oneofsix]

Of course women have got to play their part (not blaming them of course) and NOT hanging out with loonies...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/6051875/Womans-hair-tied-to-tow-bar

FFS - you would think they would know better?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/6051662/Female-guards-in-affairs-with-prisoners

For the first one there is the battered wife syndrome, I think basically they have such low self esteem and are so down trodden they can't see an alternative and/or think that even if they 'escape' he will get them.

As for the second, frigging looneys. Guess it might be the missed placed mothering instinct and they somehow think they will change the crims, what woman doesn't think she will change her man? :facepalm:

I agree the woman and society, even at scum level, need to change attitudes. As I've said before we have changed our attitude to drink driving since I was a child, we are changing our attitude to child discipline, most of the way there for most of the people now, but there will always be those few that require the assistance of a high velocity lead pallet to make them better citizens.

[Paul in NZ]

You can have all the policies and theories in the world but with animals like this about we have not got a show.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/6082342/Terror-in-Tokoroa-woman-shot-near-parade

Gee - related to the Glassies eh?

[riffer]

I personally think that the only way you are really going to make any headway with this issue is to do something that's going to upset a lot of people.


Introduce a form of "National Standards" for childcare.
Introduce constant and consistent monitoring of ALL families and hold ALL infringers to account. Start a league of tables for parenting results and compare EVERYBODY.
Remove children from at risk families and rehouse with infertile couples who are prepared to make a difference
Report on what's actually happening; make it totally transparent.

A few problems I can see with this. Firstly, no-one will like this amount of infringement in our lives. Hell, I don't even like what I'm suggesting. Secondly, it's hugely expensive. Thirdly, it sends out the message that NONE of us can be trusted. We hated the anti-smacking law and this is 100-fold harsher. Fourthly, do we have people with the competencies to drive this?

But I think to fix this problem we need to change our priorities. Either our children are THE MOST important thing in our society or they are not.

Please discuss.

[riffer]

Well, that killed the conversation...

[JimO]

lets face it we know who are the worst offenders, put them under the microscope, stop paying for them to have more babies

[hayd3n]

i frmly believe that they should just pay $2000 to anyone wishing to go and get sterilised
imagine the millions saved in welfare and the idiots stoopid enough to take it

[shrub]

Tomorrow I am attending a family group conference over a couple of kids that look like they are being abused by their mother's partner. One of them is my partner's brother's son, and the other is that kid's half brother. Now here's the interesting bit: My partner's brother M realised there were problems very early in the piece, and over the last 12 months has spent over $50k fighting to get custody of his kid, and the best he could get was 50/50. The other kid's father didn't have the money, so went broke before being completely shut out of his son's life.

Over the last 12 months there have been a huge number of warning signs, and my partner's family have done everything they could to get the kid out but the system is so biased towards the mother that even though she was living in a shithole, a car with no WOF and wasn't providing even basic needs the default was 100% custody to her. M has a good job, his own home, a supportive family and is a committed father.

If M didn't have the financial ability and support to fight for his kid I suspect that one or both kids would be tomorrow's headlines.

[oneofsix]

Introduce a form of "National Standards" for childcare.

Please discuss.

remember when Plunket was financed to this level and all kids were by default Plunket kids.

[MSTRS]

There certainly was a lot to recommend that system. What mother was going to 'go up against' one of Plunket's battle-scarred dragons?
No - either the mother did what she was told - or else.
That, or use the District Nurse who called at the house and were generally closer to human...
Either way, the 'state' was watching.

[riffer]

I was a Plunket kid.

I was gutted when they killed Plunket off.

[thecharmed01]

Who killed off Plunket?
Why do people keep saying that when Plunket are still going fine.
I'm on the Island Bay Plunket Committee and my son (Mr 3) has seen Plunket for all of his Well Child Health visits. They used to come to me, but then as he got older I opted to come to them but even now for his 4 year check I can get them to come to me if I choose.
Plunket are awesome when you get a good Plunket nurse, but they can be really awful if you strike a bad one, like anything.



I wasn't going to read this thread as I get so angry about all the abuse cases and infanticides in New Zealand and it makes me want to hurt people. I don't understand how ANYONE can inflict pain on a child willfully. I just don't get it.

But then reading this article here tonight (http://www.bayofplentytimes.co.nz/news/girl-sent-to-school-with-lice-sores/1196465/) made me so so angry that I want to drive up there and take those babies myself!!!
This stupid "little girl" who is far too young and immature to be a mother, has 3 children and is pregnant with #4 whilst still drinking and carrying on like a 15 year old (as seen on her public Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001591811591&sk=wall)page)
She sent her 5-year-old girl to school smelly, hungry, riddled with head lice, open sores and suffering scabies day after day, with the school telling her to get her daughter help every day, to the piont where the child started walking home alone as Mummy hadn't arrived (likely too embarrassed by the school's comments) to collect her.
She complained about having no lunch... having eaten no breakfast... having had no dinner the night before....
She's 5 years old!!! She shouldn't have to worry about that!
I don't understand why those children are allowed to live with her! Why does she get chance after chance when the school (good on them btw) told her over and over she needed to help her little girl get well!
It's heartbreaking. And her gloating on Facebook makes me want to slap her!

[Woodman]

Thinkin outside of the square, I just thought of a great way to get the gummint to come down hard on this and sort it out.

Start a tourism style marketing campaign aimed at our biggest overseas customers that tells the story like it is. How the leaders of NZ don't give a fuck, how children are starving, hooked on drugs, abused and murdered. You get the idea.
Pretty sure there would be enough like minded individuals who would freely give up their time and expertise to conjur up such a campaign, hell they wouldn't even need to action it, just discreetly show it to the powers that be as a form of bribery.

Its $$$ talking, thats what they understand.

[Winston001]

I personally think that the only way you are really going to make any headway with this issue is to do something that's going to upset a lot of people.


Introduce a form of "National Standards" for childcare.
Introduce constant and consistent monitoring of ALL families and hold ALL infringers to account. Start a league of tables for parenting results and compare EVERYBODY.
Remove children from at risk families and rehouse with infertile couples who are prepared to make a difference
Report on what's actually happening; make it totally transparent.



Totally agree.

So far, no government has the courage to take such drastic steps. Also as you point out we probably do not have enough trained people to do the interventions.

What we do need to happen is a national conversation on dysfunctional families and that will have to be carried out by the media. Quite how it gets kick-started I do not know. A charismatic politician could do it but would need courage and support from other leaders.

[oneofsix]

Thinkin outside of the square, I just thought of a great way to get the gummint to come down hard on this and sort it out.

Start a tourism style marketing campaign aimed at our biggest overseas customers that tells the story like it is. How the leaders of NZ don't give a fuck, how children are starving, hooked on drugs, abused and murdered. You get the idea.
Pretty sure there would be enough like minded individuals who would freely give up their time and expertise to conjur up such a campaign, hell they wouldn't even need to action it, just discreetly show it to the powers that be as a form of bribery.

Its $$$ talking, thats what they understand.

another 'Once were warriors' warts and all type movie? Or a TV series, Law and Order style based on Police and social services trying to do something about child abuse but coming up against the wall of silence etc that protects and enables the abuser?

[FJRider]

Thinkin outside of the square, I just thought of a great way to get the gummint to come down hard on this and sort it out.


But the goverment passed a LAW against child abuse ... didn't they ... ???

Administer a lead pill to the offending parent ... merely on suspicion if necessary ... (even if you get the wrong one ... no great loss to society)

Abuse would stop smartly afterwards ...

[oneofsix]

But the goverment passed a LAW against child abuse ... didn't they ... ???


No. There was always a law against abuse it was just that lawyers and judges couldn't tell the difference between abuse a reasonable force so the Government removed the reasonable force defence. This hasn't stopped abuse but it does mean that the person that argued using alcathen (that wont be spelt right) pipe to beat her child wouldn't now be able to get a judge to call it reasonable force. However it also means you can't smack or restrain your child against its will because children are just mini adults don't you know (so why can't they drink or drive)

[Winston001]

But the goverment passed a LAW against child abuse ... didn't they ... ???



Agreed. And they passed a law against murder, rape, assault, burglary, fraud etc....

These crimes still occur. Do you think we shouldn't make them unlawful?


Child abuse is obscene. Anything which strengthens the law to protect children has to be good.

[FJRider]

Agreed. And they passed a law against murder, rape, assault, burglary, fraud etc....

These crimes still occur. Do you think we shouldn't make them unlawful?


Child abuse is obscene. Anything which strengthens the law to protect children has to be good.

A change to the laws regarding being put into custody for some offences ... UNTILL THE CASE IS HEARD ... (including drink driving) A police cell ... not the Milton Hilton ...

[oneofsix]

Looks like the Government is about to deal to those that chose to support child abuse through the code of silence.


Child advocates are hailing new laws giving sweeping powers to prosecute all those turning a blind eye to assaults on the very young.

The Crimes Amendment Act (No3) becomes law on March 19 and will allow police to charge everyone in a household with failing to protect a child.

The maximum sentence is 10 years' jail.

[BoristheBiter]

Looks like the Government is about to deal to those that chose to support child abuse through the code of silence.

It's a start but should be life in prison.

[oneofsix]

It's a start but should be life in prison.

you would let them live :eek5:

[oneofsix]

This report suggests attitudes are changing


Nationally, there were 150,747 notifications, up from 124,921 the previous year. Almost 11,000 of those came from family members.


It is the change in attitude that is going to do the fixing of the problem, making abuse unacceptable before it happens. Trouble is there will always be the exceptions and this is were the law steps in and it appears the police have been doing there bit unless the reported increase is due to the "anti-smacking" law causing a wave of frivolous complaints.

[imdying]

Child advocates are hailing new laws giving sweeping powers to prosecute all those turning a blind eye to assaults on the very young.What a fucking load of shite. The very young? Why are people allowed to turn a blind eye, period?

[BoristheBiter]

you would let them live :eek5:

call me a softy.

[mashman]

call me a softy.

I call you a liar sir, a softy, yhar right... if they're fuckin with kids, bury them. They're kids. Same thing goes for rape aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand lots of other anti-human shit.

[BoristheBiter]

I call you a liar sir, a softy, yhar right... if they're fuckin with kids, bury them. They're kids. Same thing goes for rape aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand lots of other anti-human shit.

I call you...... WTF?. Where in this post has kiddy fiddling come into it?

[oneofsix]

I call you...... WTF?. Where in this post has kiddy fiddling come into it?

Point. Abuse means both kiddy fiddling and physical bashing but the law changed is targeted at the bashing, probably on the assumption that even the family are unaware of the fiddling but it should apply equally.

[Paul in NZ]

Its the song that never ends..... apparently

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/6137906/Woman-charged-with-toddlers-murder

[oneofsix]

Its the song that never ends..... apparently

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/6137906/Woman-charged-with-toddlers-murder

augh shit. And with Xmas stress it will get worse. Women's refuge bleat on about the woman, fair enough too, but what of the kids? And too often now the woman are part of the problem, perhaps sometimes to avoid a beating themselves but not always, shit if its to avoid a beating go to Women's Refuge don't protect an arsehole

[Paul in NZ]

augh shit. And with Xmas stress it will get worse. Women's refuge bleat on about the woman, fair enough too, but what of the kids? And too often now the woman are part of the problem, perhaps sometimes to avoid a beating themselves but not always, shit if its to avoid a beating go to Women's Refuge don't protect an arsehole

Easier said than done with some of these guys. The kids are used as a tool to get her to shut up.

I dunno.... I really don't.

[MSTRS]

I dunno.... I really don't.

I think you do, Paul. As do I.
Problem remains that it takes ruined lives first to bring these arseholes into the light.

[Mom]

I fostered children for many years, many years ago. Last placement in my home would have to be 16 years ago.

I can state, with some confidence, that nothing, absolutely NOTHING has changed in all the years since I stopped taking kids into my home, after a particularly challenging placement.

I had to step back, many reasons for the decision, but primarily taking damaged children into your home is a family decision and my family decided that we had had enough.

I am currently trying to read my way through Ian Wisharts book about the Kahui Twins deaths as told from the perspective of their mother Macsyna King. It is not an easy read, it brings back so many memories of the kids I used to love for a short time and the families that were "raising"them.


Nothing is going to change as long as we as a society continue to accept what goes on, and do not take an active role in "interferring" in others lives. These poor families have no idea what is normal, or how to change things when they have a small clue. Ignorance, poor education, no other examples to go by. If you know no better, how the hell are you going to change?

There are all sorts of on the ground agencies out here that help. They are not funded properly, nor are they able to simple "get stuck in" due to an over controlling PC society that insists the 70% of the money that might be available, gets used to fulfill or even to fill out the endless paper work.

Everyone of us can probably think of a family close by that we know is struggling. How about we simply wander along the road with a packet of biscuits and introduce ourselves. A few minutes of simple kindness to the ones that are struggling, would go a huge way to resolve some of our problems. Remember that some of these folk have NEVER had a fair deal in their lives.

Take an interest in your community, take part in your community even if it costs you a little bit of time and tiny bit of money...

Opps, I got on my soap box...

[Winston001]

Nothing is going to change as long as we as a society continue to accept what goes on, and do not take an active role in "interferring" in others lives.

These poor families have no idea what is normal, or how to change things when they have a small clue.



Your wise words need to be spread. Bling sent.

[unstuck]

Your wise words need to be spread. Bling sent.

Very wise words. There has been a couple of times when I have seen people being abusive/ bullying their kids and stepped in to see how they like being abused and bullied, with mixed results. I think in a couple of cases it may of made things worse for the kids, but it is so frustrating to see these kids being treated this way. I dont know what else to do though, sometimes I just feel like grabbing their kids and taking them home.:nono:

[Paul in NZ]

Fuckin arse biscuit.

This broke my bloody heart again even though the story had been in the press earlier.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10774563

Far out - I hope these kids get shown some love this christmas for a change.....

I dunno - this has got me thinking, you know there has to be something a diverse group of motorcyclists can do to help. Even if its taking one of these kids for a ride, fishing or rockin up with some pressies or shit. Anything to show them not all adults are a sack of shit.

Any ideas?

[SMOKEU]

There's an easy way to reduce the problem significantly in the long term. The government should start investing a lot more money on contraception (not just contraceptive pills, because people forget to take them). Then the government should not be paying people to breed, because there are people out there who have kids just so they can get more money from the government.

If a woman gets pregnant and can't afford to keep the baby, then the government should pay for the first child just like the current system. Any more kids after the first one, and the government should not be paying any extra dole payments.

This would reduce the incentive for people to breed, and therefore lead to fewer unwanted children. I personally knew a woman who was in her early 40s, and she kept on having kids because she didn't want to work. The kids themselves were being neglected, and eventually CYFS got involved and took the kids away for a few months before handing them back.

[blue rider]

there are a few ways to reduce unwanted pregnancy

1. No nonsense sexual education - name it, so that Men and Women old and young understand what is happening, why and what the consequences of unprotected sex are - biology is a bitch

2. Free Pill, Condoms and any other form of Contraception - yes condoms - even if people don't like to use them

3. Free Morning After Pill - for any female who asks for it, regardless of the age, without the need of parental notification

4. No more abstinence only education allowed - get the church out of Peoples bedrooms, really

5. no more interference by religion or religious believes. if women/men/couple refuses to have protected sex, because kids are "Gods Gift" than as Smokeu says, no support from the State.
Let their church pay for Gods Offspring

6. Free abortions, without any, ANY, moral hang ups. No questions asked, get checked by health practitioners if the women is healthy can support the procedure and does not want the child - have a free abortion

7. Free Tubal Ligation - regardless of the age of the women and the amount of children she may or may not have had at the time of request

8. Free Vasectomy - what you thought baby prevention is only a girl thingy?

9. Collection of Child Support enforced by the IRD -the national party would have lost the last election would it have campaigned on that one :lol:

if the state were to implement these, and the holy men/women that scream about "evil" abortions were told to shut up for good......then we would see a drop in unwanted pregnancies.

as long as we are being hypocrite about it with fake morals and societal standards, women (young and old) will have children that often they not want, or need, or can afford financially, mentally, emotionally.

Society needs to come to grips with the fact that live is not holy, that it has no value other than what we individually give it.
And sometimes the beast looks at us directly and states no value, just a human punching bag, or sex toy

so maybe we should give less importance to the fetus, and start concentrating on the living

[BoristheBiter]

there are a few ways to reduce unwanted pregnancy

1. No nonsense sexual education - name it, so that Men and Women old and young understand what is happening, why and what the consequences of unprotected sex are - biology is a bitch

2. Free Pill, Condoms and any other form of Contraception - yes condoms - even if people don't like to use them

3. Free Morning After Pill - for any female who asks for it, regardless of the age, without the need of parental notification

4. No more abstinence only education allowed - get the church out of Peoples bedrooms, really

5. no more interference by religion or religious believes. if women/men/couple refuses to have protected sex, because kids are "Gods Gift" than as Smokeu says, no support from the State.
Let their church pay for Gods Offspring

6. Free abortions, without any, ANY, moral hang ups. No questions asked, get checked by health practitioners if the women is healthy can support the procedure and does not want the child - have a free abortion

7. Free Tubal Ligation - regardless of the age of the women and the amount of children she may or may not have had at the time of request

8. Free Vasectomy - what you thought baby prevention is only a girl thingy?

9. Collection of Child Support enforced by the IRD -the national party would have lost the last election would it have campaigned on that one :lol:

if the state were to implement these, and the holy men/women that scream about "evil" abortions were told to shut up for good......then we would see a drop in unwanted pregnancies.

as long as we are being hypocrite about it with fake morals and societal standards, women (young and old) will have children that often they not want, or need, or can afford financially, mentally, emotionally.

Society needs to come to grips with the fact that live is not holy, that it has no value other than what we individually give it.
And sometimes the beast looks at us directly and states no value, just a human punching bag, or sex toy

so maybe we should give less importance to the fetus, and start concentrating on the living

And that will work.......yeah right.

All the education and free shit in the world won't stop the idiots breeding.
There is a reason they are called dumb and lazy.

[Winston001]

there are a few ways to reduce unwanted pregnancy

1. No nonsense sexual education - name it, so that Men and Women old and young understand what is happening, why and what the consequences of unprotected sex are - biology is a bitch

2. Free Pill, Condoms and any other form of Contraception - yes condoms - even if people don't like to use them

3. Free Morning After Pill - for any female who asks for it, regardless of the age, without the need of parental notification

4. No more abstinence only education allowed

5. no more interference by religion or religious believes.

6. Free abortions, without any, ANY, moral hang ups.

7. Free Tubal Ligation - regardless of the age of the women and the amount of children she may or may not have had at the time of request

8. Free Vasectomy - what you thought baby prevention is only a girl thingy?

9. Collection of Child Support enforced by the IRD -the national party would have lost the last election would it have campaigned on that one :lol:



so maybe we should give less importance to the fetus, and start concentrating on the living

Some of what you suggest already exists.

And I'm perplexed about the contrary logic of not teaching abstinence - because that is the most simple and effective anti-pregnancy device. So you want plenty of sex education (which I agree with) but nothing about avoiding sexual intercourse??

Forget religion, abstinence is rational decision making. None of my 18yr daughters friends are sexually active. Ok, that won't last but they certainly understand pregnancy because they have seen it happen to other girls.

Incidentally a foetus is a living human being. I support abortion but it does trouble me on an ethical level.

[SS90]

I have been following this case for a while ..... http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/6173214/Boys-wish-granted-mother-sent-to-jail

But check out this "Letter form the Mother", on an undisclosed date, requesting some compensation for the Daughter....

MOTHER'S LETTER TO JOHN KEY

My name is Ms X and I am writing this letter to you in regards to my daughter who is currently 8 years of Age and was Sexually Violated and Indecently Assaulted from her caregiver when she was approximately 4 and a half years old up to when she was returned to my care which was 3 years later.

This is very unfortunate that this ordeal has happened to my child but my main concern is that my daughter has some very disturbing issues due to her injury and there is no support from CYFS who were responsible for my child at the time of this incident.

I am very disturbed that my child had suffered this sort of treatment considering that CYFS said to me that they would protect my daughter better than myself, Yet I have 5 Children in total and none of them have ever ended up like this?

Because of the situation for you as New Zealand's Prime Minister I would like to know your views on my situation.
I hope I am not offending you in anyway, but I am very sad to see my daughter suffer from the trauma she has been through, which I hope you understand.

My daughter has been to the Evidential Video Unit and made a Video which I have not seen but have heard from the Detective and other sources which say that the Video that my Daughter has made is very detailed to the point that she knows things that no child should know at that age?

I have contacted CYFS in regards to Counselling for my child and they did pay for 12 Sessions for her and when I approached CYFS again for my daughter to return to Counselling CYFS had given me a letter to say that they were not prepared to pay for counselling as it is too expensive and there is not enough in the Budget.

Work and Income pay for her counselling now and I am disappointed that CYFS would treat my daughter this way.
I have contacted ACC in regards to making a claim for my daughter for these counselling fees for her to continue her counselling for a very long time as she has very sensitive issues around what has happened to her?

I currently have all 5 of my children in my custody at the moment and I am doing a great job looking after all my children too.

In your opinion Mr Keys do you think that my child is entitled to compensation for what happened to her for the past 3 years, because to be honest with you my daughter is going to be needing Constant Care and Protection as well as love and compassion from her loving siblings and myself of course. I have spoken and also looked up on the website in regards to compensation for my child for her the abuse she has suffered but ACC have made things clear that children are not Entitled to Lump Sum Compensation as She is too young. But please contact me as soon as you are available please. This Issue needs to be addressed as soon as possible.

My Family and I would like CYFS to sign my children off permanently and please let me and my family be together and try to give my daughter the support she needs.

I am very sorry Mr Keys But I have been seeking help everywhere for my child to get better and try to let go of the poison that is inside of her at the moment. I am sure you will agree with me about this problem because my child cannot even concentrate on School because all she thinks about is the abuse she has suffered and what effects this has on her when all she thinks about is doing silly things like what her caregiver done to her. So far the Police are doing an excellent job as the perpetrator has been in Court and we are awaiting the Jury date for the hearing.

Ms X

PS: If you have any Queries regarding anything you don't understand then please contact me.

[blue rider]

Some of what you suggest already exists.

And I'm perplexed about the contrary logic of not teaching abstinence - because that is the most simple and effective anti-pregnancy device. So you want plenty of sex education (which I agree with) but nothing about avoiding sexual intercourse??

Forget religion, abstinence is rational decision making. None of my 18yr daughters friends are sexually active. Ok, that won't last but they certainly understand pregnancy because they have seen it happen to other girls.

Incidentally a foetus is a living human being. I support abortion but it does trouble me on an ethical level.




_abstinence is a choice that one makes according to their needs/cultural background/upbringing etc. , no teaching required. don't want sex, don't have it.
but to say its the only safe method? Only until one has sex without protection.....boom a bun in the oven.



_a fetus is a living human being once born. Until this moment the women is already a living human being that might not be able to care for the future child. and her rights supersede that of the future human being.
and again, not everyone will choose abortion. I just want it to be accessible to all females that need one.

my points were not aimed at young people per se, they were merely a reflection on smokeu's musing on how to prevent people from "breeding".

all the options that I have listed are valid, none is to be discouraged. but I do insist that abstinence, especially based and founded on religious principle does not work, but will end only in slut shaming the girl, once she gets pregnant because she had gasp sex.

[blue rider]

as per the article

The mother wrote to Key asking for help and he passed that onto Bennett who replied and offered six counselling sessions for the girl.

wow - the generosity !!

Defence lawyer Lorraine Smith said there was no question the abuse was "ongoing" and "horrific".

But, Smith said the mother's actions were those of a woman let down by the system and multiple agencies.

no the action were those of a sadistic person

"My submission is that both the Prime Minister and the Minister for Social Development failed both [the child] and her mother.


nope they only failed the child

"She should not be punished excessively by the court because the system let her down."

she should be looked away and the keys should be thrown away

[Winston001]

Blaming any government for vile abuse of your own child is execrable.

[BoristheBiter]

_abstinence is a choice that one makes according to their needs/cultural background/upbringing etc. , no teaching required. don't want sex, don't have it.
but to say its the only safe method? Only until one has sex without protection.....boom a bun in the oven.


.

Abstinence is the only 100% safe method of contraception. It has noting to do with needs/cultural background/upbringing it has to do with respect for ones self.
Not only that it stops women getting cervical cancer.
All others have failed at some point.

All your education is all fine and dandy but the amount people are sleeping around these days is the problem.

[blue rider]

Abstinence is the only 100% safe method of contraception. It has noting to do with needs/cultural background/upbringing it has to do with respect for ones self.
Not only that it stops women getting cervical cancer.
All others have failed at some point.

All your education is all fine and dandy but the amount people are sleeping around these days is the problem.



so you told your girlfriend/partner that you giveth no pleasure before holy matrimony? or are you one of those that decide that only vaginal penetration is sex, and all the other stuff is fun?

and if married, you will only were a stylish capote to prevent transmitting the Human Papillamavirus HPV,(because it happens to married people too) and you of course will only go bold and naked if you want to re-produce....?

and when you have a girl child you will insist in abstinence instead of providing her with the vaccine that actually prevents the Virus, so she will stay virtuous?

And you consider this educated and smart and you live in the 21st century?

Education is the only way together with free and easily available options to prevent and or stop a pregnancy.

[BoristheBiter]

so you told your girlfriend/partner that you giveth no pleasure before holy matrimony? or are you one of those that decide that only vaginal penetration is sex, and all the other stuff is fun?

and if married, you will only were a stylish capote to prevent transmitting the Human Papillamavirus HPV,(because it happens to married people too) and you of course will only go bold and naked if you want to re-produce....?

and when you have a girl child you will insist in abstinence instead of providing her with the vaccine that actually prevents the Virus, so she will stay virtuous?

And you consider this educated and smart and you live in the 21st century?

Education is the only way together with free and easily available options to prevent and or stop a pregnancy.

You are so far off the beaten track.
I said nothing for which you comment on, I mealy stated that the only 100% safe contraceptive method is abstinence and this has nothing to do with any needs/cultural background/upbringing.

I am not stupid enough, tho some on here would beg to differ, to think that all will have the will power to keep their legs shut and this was not what i was commenting on.

[PrincessBandit]

Wow. Bluerider, I must say your rants equal those of any fully fledged member of the God squad!

While I agree that you do have some valid points, you seem to be incapable of accepting that others have a different viewpoint.

Abstinence IS the only fail safe contraceptive. Of course as soon as intercourse takes place there is the possibility of pregnancy - pill, condom whatever, all of them fail at some point. As for abstinence not needing to be taught - oh, don't make me laugh. Any number of people have sex through societal expectations, having it pushed at them that "if they're not doing it there must be something wrong with them" etc.

Education is all very well and jolly but has the exponentially increased availability of it had any DECREASE effect on unwanted pregnancies?

Get over yourself and your high horse.

[MSTRS]

The more freely available (especially if free) methods of contraception and abortion there are, the more reason there is for (young) people to indulge themselves. And we all know that no contraceptive is 100% effective. Apart from abstinence as Boris said.
There was, is, and will be, no easy answer to the problem of unwanted pregnancy. Secrecy doesn't work and nor does shouting about it from the rooftops.
I suspect that if DPB was not increased to cover extra children (whilst on it for one already) would help as a method of curbing that particular part of the problem.

[The Singing Chef]

_abstinence is a choice that one makes according to their needs/cultural background/upbringing etc. , no teaching required. don't want sex, don't have it.
but to say its the only safe method? Only until one has sex without protection.....boom a bun in the oven.



_a fetus is a living human being once born. Until this moment the women is already a living human being that might not be able to care for the future child. and her rights supersede that of the future human being.
and again, not everyone will choose abortion. I just want it to be accessible to all females that need one.

my points were not aimed at young people per se, they were merely a reflection on smokeu's musing on how to prevent people from "breeding".

all the options that I have listed are valid, none is to be discouraged. but I do insist that abstinence, especially based and founded on religious principle does not work, but will end only in slut shaming the girl, once she gets pregnant because she had gasp sex.

Abstinence is the only 100% effective way in regards to not getting pregnant, Anal sex not included.

A fetus is actually a living being, far before it is squeezed out into the world, it moves, it kicks, it feeds, I would even go as far to say that it probably has some form of thoughts going on inside that little head as well.
I think that having free abortion available to all women is slightly flawed, since then it becomes a matter of not giving a shit and then everyone gets pregnant because "Hey, it's now a disposable baby", how long would it take till you see bags of dead babies in the trash because our already disposable culture then moves onto human beings.

It is an exaggerated example I know, but it has a point.

People need to take responsibility for their actions and pregnancy is a huge issue where people skive off on. It comes down to how they have been brought up and what they then think is normal. That's where we need to change things, break the cycle and hit it at the root.

[meteor]

Good on Paula Bennett... http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10774563

It's no ones fault but her own... so easy for her and defence lawyers to blame everyone but the one doing the crime... As a society we must start holding people accountable for their actions and stop deferring blame to some newly found medical condition, some ones poor ubringing or some other govt. department.

That mother is an evil mental inhuman bitch who has no right to breed, she should be steralised. My heart sinks when I hear these sorts of things. What a horrible start to life that poor wee kid had.

[cold comfort]

I''ll consider the govt are taking it seriously when we have a dedicated Minister for Children. If we can have a Minister for bloody Racing doesn't seem too much to ask.

[SS90]

Good on Paula Bennett... http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10774563

It's no ones fault but her own... so easy for her and defence lawyers to blame everyone but the one doing the crime... As a society we must start holding people accountable for their actions and stop deferring blame to some newly found medical condition, some ones poor ubringing or some other govt. department.

That mother is an evil mental inhuman bitch who has no right to breed, she should be steralised. My heart sinks when I hear these sorts of things. What a horrible start to life that poor wee kid had.

The way the "Egg donor" (The term Mother would imply some sort of maternal actions/instincts) wrote to John Key, and more or less attempted manipulate him to give her a lump sum payment "for her daughters suffering" shows exactly what sort of person she is.... Shit.

Just like when you see 1 Rat..... There are 100 you don't..... This woman is simply ONE that has been caught (and I must say, she received a suitable sentence!), and I am sure that there are other kids in the community that are having it worse, or at best similar, that we just don't know about.

2012 will tell all.... I predict worse to come, not better.:(

[Edbear]

Abstinence is the only 100% effective way in regards to not getting pregnant, Anal sex not included.

A fetus is actually a living being, far before it is squeezed out into the world, it moves, it kicks, it feeds, I would even go as far to say that it probably has some form of thoughts going on inside that little head as well. I think that having free abortion available to all women is slightly flawed, since then it becomes a matter of not giving a shit and then everyone gets pregnant because "Hey, it's now a disposable baby", how long would it take till you see bags of dead babies in the trash because our already disposable culture then moves onto human beings.

It is an exaggerated example I know, but it has a point.

People need to take responsibility for their actions and pregnancy is a huge issue where people skive off on. It comes down to how they have been brought up and what they then think is normal. That's where we need to change things, break the cycle and hit it at the root.

More than that it feels pain, it responds as it hears what is going on outside the womb. I've not only raised three chioldren myself, but my eldest daughter is preggies for the second time and our no.2 grandson is due in January. We have learned a lot about conception, development in the womb and birth. I am totally against abortion and anyone who is pro, probably has no idea how it is performed and ther effect on teh uinborn, it is barbaric and cruel, inhumane and causes pain and suffering for a child that feels it and we would prosecute anyone treating even a dog in this way.


I''ll consider the govt are taking it seriously when we have a dedicated Minister for Children. If we can have a Minister for bloody Racing doesn't seem too much to ask.

We did, wasn't he prosecuted for kiddy fiddling?

[MSTRS]

Minister. Commissioner. Not the same thing.

[The Singing Chef]

More than that it feels pain, it responds as it hears what is going on outside the womb. I've not only raised three chioldren myself, but my eldest daughter is preggies for the second time and our no.2 grandson is due in January. We have learned a lot about conception, development in the womb and birth. I am totally against abortion and anyone who is pro, probably has no idea how it is performed and ther effect on teh uinborn, it is barbaric and cruel, inhumane and causes pain and suffering for a child that feels it and we would prosecute anyone treating even a dog in this way.



We did, wasn't he prosecuted for kiddy fiddling?

Yea, there are more than a few stories about how the abortions are performed, and them still being alive after performing the abortion.
If I was to somehow get a girl pregnant, I would support her through either decision, but I would be on the side of keeping it. It is my fault and it is my burden. Just like jumping on a motorbike, I understand that there can be consequences and I accept that fully and if I hurt myself that is my responsibility and my own fault, although if it is bad enough other people could end up looking after me which wouldn't be nice.

[Edbear]

Minister. Commissioner. Not the same thing.

Ah, yes, my memory is somewhat unreliable at times. I did like the way Paula Bennet is putting the responsibility back on the parents. Smacking is one thing and may be unjustified and done out of frustration and anger, but what this wee girl and her brother went through is inexcusable.


Yea, there are more than a few stories about how the abortions are performed, and them still being alive after performing the abortion.
If I was to somehow get a girl pregnant, I would support her through either decision, but I would be on the side of keeping it. It is my fault and it is my burden. Just like jumping on a motorbike, I understand that there can be consequences and I accept that fully and if I hurt myself that is my responsibility and my own fault, although if it is bad enough other people could end up looking after me which wouldn't be nice.

Are you seriously suggesting people should take responsibility for their choices..? :weird: How novel... What about this freedom and rights thing which for most people seems to mean they can do what they like anyhow or time they like and blame someone else, especially the authorities when they get caught and prosecuted for it. (Like KB'rs getting a ticket for speeding...:pinch:)

[The Singing Chef]

Ah, yes, my memory is somewhat unreliable at times. I did like the way Paula Bennet is putting the responsibility back on the parents. Smacking is one thing and may be unjustified and done out of frustration and anger, but what this wee girl and her brother went through is inexcusable.



Are you seriously suggesting people should take responsibility for their choices..? :weird: How novel... What about this freedom and rights thing which for most people seems to mean they can do what they like anyhow or time they like and blame someone else, especially the authorities when they get caught and prosecuted for it. (Like KB'rs getting a ticket for speeding...:pinch:)

Hmm, maybe hoping.

[oneofsix]

A headline by Fairfax Media suggests an ex child commissioner is blaming us for failing our kids because some people are abusive. He didn't. He does raise concerns about the current focus on avoid welfare dependency verses what is required to raise a child. He is wrong in suggesting that we are currently somehow worse than in the past, look at the victorian era society treated kids and the poor.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/6177889/Hassall-We-re-failing-our-children

Yes there are still problems and often people can't see the forest for the trees, get so focused on a single hobby horse they don't see the collateral damage. I guess it is looking for the silver bullet, the economic cookie cutter solution, that, IMO, doesn't not exist because you are dealing with individuals.

[nodrog]

I suspect that if DPB was not increased to cover extra children (whilst on it for one already) would help as a method of curbing that particular part of the problem.

A punch in the guts would be more effective.

[oneofsix]

A punch in the guts would be more effective.

Did hear of one mother who's "partner" didn't like contraceptives of any type and trapped her into pregnancies (many ending in secret abortions). In this case something sharp to the nuts would have been more effective.

[Spearfish]

Did hear of one mother who's "partner" didn't like contraceptives of any type and trapped her into pregnancies (many ending in secret abortions). In this case something sharp to the nuts would have been more effective.

I'm not sure how that works, how can a woman be trapped into pregnancies? surly she doesn't need a permission slip from the "partner" do get a discreet form of contraception.

Now men being trapped...

[oneofsix]

I'm not sure how that works, how can a woman be trapped into pregnancies? surly she doesn't need a permission slip from the "partner" do get a discreet form of contraception.

Now men being trapped...

you haven't known anybody in a controlling relationship or look at physcology have you? And discreet? like partners checking your text messages whilst you are n the shower, or going through your handbag, or controlling the money and contraceptives have to be renewed and chemical ones can fail due to sickness, antibiotics etc. Life ain't always that easy and it is not always just the woman's fault, perhaps they can't see the way out or are afraid of the repercussions.

[The Singing Chef]

you haven't known anybody in a controlling relationship or look at physcology have you? And discreet? like partners checking your text messages whilst you are n the shower, or going through your handbag, or controlling the money and contraceptives have to be renewed and chemical ones can fail due to sickness, antibiotics etc. Life ain't always that easy and it is not always just the woman's fault, perhaps they can't see the way out or are afraid of the repercussions.

funnily enough I was in a controlling relationship, physical abuse (stabbing ) verbal abuse and everything else under the sun. was stuck in Brisbane with no passport because it was "lost" and no friends because of the kind of relationship. finally managed to get a passport and escape but the physcological effect that is on you whilst in the relationship is amazing, you treat it as normal and forgive and forget. its hard to get out of and any one you told never gave a shit.

[mashman]

Abstinence is the only 100% safe method of contraception. It has noting to do with needs/cultural background/upbringing it has to do with respect for ones self.
Not only that it stops women getting cervical cancer.
All others have failed at some point.

All your education is all fine and dandy but the amount people are sleeping around these days is the problem.

Just to get a tad technical. IVF? Mother Mary :shifty:

If you wanna do it, snip boys at the age of 10 and only reverse them at the age of 21+. Any male who has more than 1 child, yes this will mean a DNA database and the "testing" of new borns, should be re-snipped. Job done. If a female has more than 2 abortions, snip her too.

Teaching abstinence is exactly the same as any other form of education... it means feck all when the education is ignored. May as well protect from unwanted pregnancies as best as possible... including morning after pills and free abortions...

Whilst some of you say that that only encourages them, they're gonna do what they're gonna do irrespective and not making the "remedies" available freely, will only make a bad situation worse.

[MSTRS]

Same as the drug problem, really. Will legalising everything (like free contraception and abortions on tap, no questions asked) make it go away?

[Brett]

So..another sick faggot vicously beat up a 5 year old little girl over here with her tourist family while caravaning in Turangi. Nice. A real winner then, can beat up a 5 year old.

[Scuba_Steve]

So..another sick faggot vicously beat up a 5 year old little girl over here with her tourist family while caravaning in Turangi. Nice. A real winner then, can beat up a 5 year old.

I would speculate assaulting a 5 year old wasn't the main intention & I'm hoping by the vague story we're told he never got to fulfill his (assumed) intentions

[blue rider]

Same as the drug problem, really. Will legalising everything (like free contraception and abortions on tap, no questions asked) make it go away?


abortion, pill etc are all legal, but making them available with out any slut shaming, without any moral hang ups this is what needs to happen.

my point i tried to make was that with good education comes knowledge. with knowledge people (man and woman ) can make informed decisions.
Personally i don't care either way if someone chooses to abstain from certain sexual practices in order to prevent STD's or pregnancys or if someone chooses the pill together with a condom to achieve the same result. It is the knowledge coupled with personal believes that will help make the decision.

for my refusal to see abstinence as a choice, look at what I said - keep the church out of bedrooms. Maybe i was not clear enough. so I try again.....
Faith based abstinence will not work. Knowledge based abstinence will work for a while until the decision is reversed. and than knowledge will provide other solutions. If education and access to any form of birth control is provided - this includes the options for man.

Faith based abstinence till marriage has never been enforceable, and we have a past (till 1974 - arrival of the pill) where young pregnant unmarried women were send away to have their children. Just to have those children taken from them, to be adopted out, without their explicit permission.
When being a young unmarried women was considered shameful. this history is not to far behind us.
When children born out of wedlock were actually considered illegitimate - wtf?
Also faith based abstinence will put the onus on the female, as she is the one getting pregnant, the boy/man who helped make the child is not going to run around for 9 month with child - is he now?


As for my understanding of when life begins,for myself it is at the time the child is born, someone else may say at conception, another will say at the moment of ensoulment (when the child starts moving).
Who is to say who is right. I don't. but i will defend the right of any women to NOT have a child if she cant have it for what ever her reasons are.And I will also defend the women who chooses to have a child and receive any welfare benefits she is entitled to as a mother.
Why? Because it is about the right of the women to her life. It is her life that is changed by a pregnancy not mine.

morals are a funny thing, i have mine, and all of you have a set of your own morals . Whose morals should we live by? And why should I or you or anyone else for that matter change theirs.

[BoristheBiter]

abortion, pill etc are all legal, but making them available with out any slut shaming, without any moral hang ups this is what needs to happen.

my point i tried to make was that with good education comes knowledge. with knowledge people (man and woman ) can make informed decisions.
Personally i don't care either way if someone chooses to abstain from certain sexual practices in order to prevent STD's or pregnancys or if someone chooses the pill together with a condom to achieve the same result. It is the knowledge coupled with personal believes that will help make the decision.

for my refusal to see abstinence as a choice, look at what I said - keep the church out of bedrooms. Maybe i was not clear enough. so I try again.....
Faith based abstinence will not work. Knowledge based abstinence will work for a while until the decision is reversed. and than knowledge will provide other solutions. If education and access to any form of birth control is provided - this includes the options for man.

Faith based abstinence till marriage has never been enforceable, and we have a past (till 1974 - arrival of the pill) where young pregnant unmarried women were send away to have their children. Just to have those children taken from them, to be adopted out, without their explicit permission.
When being a young unmarried women was considered shameful. this history is not to far behind us.
When children born out of wedlock were actually considered illegitimate - wtf?
Also faith based abstinence will put the onus on the female, as she is the one getting pregnant, the boy/man who helped make the child is not going to run around for 9 month with child - is he now?


As for my understanding of when life begins,for myself it is at the time the child is born, someone else may say at conception, another will say at the moment of ensoulment (when the child starts moving).
Who is to say who is right. I don't. but i will defend the right of any women to NOT have a child if she cant have it for what ever her reasons are.And I will also defend the women who chooses to have a child and receive any welfare benefits she is entitled to as a mother.
Why? Because it is about the right of the women to her life. It is her life that is changed by a pregnancy not mine.

morals are a funny thing, i have mine, and all of you have a set of your own morals . Whose morals should we live by? And why should I or you or anyone else for that matter change theirs.

Where in the above posts has it been stated that you have to be of some religious faith to abstain for sex? Who said you can't have sex before marriage?
So you don't see abstinence as a choice, what can't keep your legs closed?

Maybe what is needed IS for some of these people to keep their legs closed or their pants pulled up and find out what sort of person they are about to fuck instead of jumping from one bed to another, kids to 5 different fathers, and couldn't give a shit about the ones they have.

You are also the only one going on about shame and calling them sluts. I know what my morals are and i won't throw them in your face but don't expect everyone to be so forgiving.

I will stand beside you defending the right of a women to choose if she wants to have the child or not, but I will also stand up against the DPB as if it is their choice to keep the child it is also my choice not to pay for it.

[SS90]

I would speculate assaulting a 5 year old wasn't the main intention & I'm hoping by the vague story we're told he never got to fulfill his (assumed) intentions

This story sounds really odd to me, my "Spider senses" are tingling..... I am 100% certain that we are missing some important parts of this story, it just does not sound right.

Poor Kid.

[MSTRS]

... I will also defend the women who chooses to have a child and receive any welfare benefits she is entitled to as a mother.
Why? Because it is about the right of the women to her life. It is her life that is changed by a pregnancy not mine.
...

Correction. Everybody is affected by the decision of a DPB recipient to have more children. The country cannot afford to keep paying more to these career 'mothers'.
As in all things set up as a backstop, in this country at least, there are too many willing to use the system for their own personal benefit by making it a lifestyle choice.
Watch the bitches spit out another at 4 year intervals (to ensure they always have one under 5)

[meteor]

So..another sick faggot vicously beat up a 5 year old little girl over here with her tourist family while caravaning in Turangi. Nice. A real winner then, can beat up a 5 year old.

5 hours of surgery to repair her. Mum saw the 'man' on top of her... I feel sick
I'm hoping he's caught because when he gets to jail I'm picking that even the crims don't like kiddie fiddlers. This offender isn't human and shouldn't be treated like he is. We simply don't need people like that in our society. Who cares how he got to be the way he is, he is now a dangerous animal and good for fuck all, period. He needs to die!

[Scuba_Steve]

This story sounds really odd to me, my "Spider senses" are tingling..... I am 100% certain that we are missing some important parts of this story, it just does not sound right.

Poor Kid.

seems the story has been filled in a bit more since I saw it, it was a sexual assault as I assumed so I do hope he never managed to achieve it. This is where a vigilante group could be good. Forced removal of genitals using "dark-age" sterilisation & pain killers is in order I think

[MSTRS]

Forced removal of genitals using "dark-age" sterilisation & pain killers is in order I think

Please tell me that you mean 'None at all'...
Actually, a docking ring would be grand. Slow, he gets to watch his precious bits turn black, shrivel and finally fall off...
Of course, surgical venting of his bladder into his arse would be necessary. Wouldn't want it to fill to splitting point and kill him, would we?

[Scuba_Steve]

Please tell me that you mean 'None at all'...
Actually, a docking ring would be grand. Slow, he gets to watch his precious bits turn black, shrivel and finally fall off...
Of course, surgical venting of his bladder into his arse would be necessary. Wouldn't want it to fill to splitting point and kill him, would we?

no we're not "barbarians" he'll get a swig of whisky a stick in the mouth, off with the genitals a pour of whisky over the wound & the hot poker to seal it up, job done :devil2:

A fuck load cheaper & faster than hospital's way & justice will be served :yes: unlike if we let our legal system take care of it :facepalm:

[mashman]

Correction. Everybody is affected by the decision of a DPB recipient to have more children. The country cannot afford to keep paying more to these career 'mothers'.
As in all things set up as a backstop, in this country at least, there are too many willing to use the system for their own personal benefit by making it a lifestyle choice.
Watch the bitches spit out another at 4 year intervals (to ensure they always have one under 5)

Another alternative to stopping career mums/parents, would be for NZ to have a free local economy :innocent:...

[Winston001]

The offender will probably turn out to have a personality disorder and be of low intellect. He'll know what he is doing is wrong but feels compelled to seek out children. Add in drugs/alcohol and the compulsion takes over when he sees an opportunity.

These awful indescribable crimes are not carried out by the average crim. There is likely to be a family or a few people who immediately suspect they know the offender. Still, Jules Mikus got away with the murder of Teresa Cormack for 15 years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teresa_Cormack



Our hearts go out to this little girl and her family.

[Scuba_Steve]

Well looks like they've arrested the (alleged) child bashing pedophile rapist, now our legal system will do it's job :facepalm:

Stuff article
(http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/6196364/Teen-arrested-over-Turangi-tourist-attack)

[thecharmed01]

Well looks like they've arrested the (alleged) child bashing pedophile rapist, now our legal system will do it's job :facepalm:

Stuff article
(http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/6196364/Teen-arrested-over-Turangi-tourist-attack)

Except he's only 16....

That's heartbreaking. What kind of life has that child had, to do that to another child?
And what will they do with him now? He's too young for prison.......
:no:

[meteor]

Except he's only 16....

That's heartbreaking. What kind of life has that child had, to do that to another child?
And what will they do with him now? He's too young for prison.......
:no:

16 sounds young... a lot of 16 year olds are vicious uncaring psycopathic career criminals who don't give a shit about the consequences of their actions on the victims or the sanctions that get metered out when (if) they get caught. Regardless of how he got to where he is... he's a vicious little animal and capable of a lot more evil that will destroy good peoples lives... how should we as a society protect itself from him and those of his ilk... groups hugs and talking about feelings. I think not.

[thecharmed01]

16 sounds young... a lot of 16 year olds are vicious uncaring psycopathic career criminals who don't give a shit about the consequences of their actions on the victims or the sanctions that get metered out when (if) they get caught. Regardless of how he got to where he is... he's a vicious little animal and capable of a lot more evil that will destroy good peoples lives... how should we as a society protect itself from him and those of his ilk... groups hugs and talking about feelings. I think not.

I totally agree. I don't think he should ever see the light of day.

But it still makes me so sad, that we can allow our kids to grow up so damaged that they think their behaviour is okay.....

[Brett]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10852332

And still the cycle continues.

" Police believe the toddler's injuries were inflicted around November or December last year "by way of full immersion of his hands into boiling water".

Despite the boy's horrific injuries, no proper medical attention was provided until child protection agencies became involved by chance in August this year, it is alleged.

It was understood the toddler suffered severe burns and deformities, which even senior police and medical experts have found disturbing.

The burns extended to the boy's mid-wrists and he will need extensive skin-graft surgery for the wounds"

And she is trying to claim that the boy immersed his own hands up to the forearm by accident, and has no excuse for why she never sought medical care for him. I think that a fair punishment for child abusers is to have what they did to the child done to them and then a minimum 5 year jail term. Oh...and the government needs to stop subsidising breeding. Basic economics, subsidise something and you'll get more of it. Hence breeding for money with no love for the kids. Fuck, I am sick of this and sick of feeling helpless to help the helpless.

[imdying]

Just the thought of it actually turns my stomach. I think I'd be best to avoid this thread, these are just not concepts I can digest. I can see no reason why she shouldn't be put on a train to a camp. Probably because we sold our rail network :no:

[mashman]

Just the thought of it actually turns my stomach. I think I'd be best to avoid this thread, these are just not concepts I can digest. I can see no reason why she shouldn't be put on a train to a camp. Probably because we sold our rail network :no:

If they can prove it beyond a doubt I'd save the fare and just shoot her. And just for the nazis out there, yes I will happily pull that trigger and sleep well that night. If you can't look after them, hand them over to someone who will.

[Banditbandit]

Just the thought of it actually turns my stomach.


Yes ... exactly - mine too. The problem is that means that we can never undertand the minds of these people (and never want to) which makes it hard to come up wth any answer to the problem, find any way to stop this happening, other than Mashman's solution - which I agree with - shoot the fuckers ..

[caseye]

The totally true and screamingly obvious thing is this.
THERE ARE MUMS AND DADS OUT THERE WHO WOULD LOVE TO ADOPT A CHILD, Any child.
Our stupid system allows that children should remain with the families that have abused them for as long as possible, just in case they are being seen as uncaring and or worse culturally insensitive.
No racial barriers or prejudices should exist here.
If a child is in danger, get that child out of there and into a home where they will be loved and cherished forever more.
No more molly coddling, out and away, never to be seen again, only way an adopted child ever sees it's biological parent/s is if, they! want to.
Simple really.
Why the fuck aren't we doing it?
Tell ya why aye.
It'd stop buying the votes of those neanderthals who are breeding just to get money! Go on tell me they're not, I double damn well dare ya.

[imdying]

Maybe that's a hole in societies way of treating parenting... taking them away is considered bad etc etc.

If you've put yourself in a position where you have kids you don't want, maybe there should be an mechanism by where you can absolve yourself of them. That might just be might white middle class ignorance coming into play though... I can't fathom another reason why you'd physically attack your child in this manner... it's so much more than a clip round the ear that it can't be in the name of discipline.

[imdying]

It'd stop buying the votes of those neanderthals who are breeding just to get money! Go on tell me they're not, I double damn well dare ya.I know it happens... young mums have admitted as much on the tele. The question is, how big is that problem really?

[caseye]

It's BIG and govt won't tell you the figures cause they'd be so damned embarrassed.
NZ has spawned ( cuse da pun) a lifestyle which doesn't just support a girl and her first born, it also supports her, her first born , her second third or fourth born and any and all fella's who prey on her vulnerability.
Lets not get away from the answer which we'd all like to see found.
There are married couples without children who will adopt, there are married couple with a child or two who'd like more and WILL adopt, there are married couples out there who would adopt a mite to expressly see it freed from a life of abject misery and suffering, this is where the neanderthals come in.
Remove their unloved, unwanted, money making children, sterilise them, YES both of them, or as is more usually the case, ALL OF THEM. 1 mum, 2 often 3 or more fathers.
Here in NZ you could place every single child who for whatever reason needed a loving caring family and still have more looking to adopt than there would be available children.

[Banditbandit]

I know it happens... young mums have admitted as much on the tele. The question is, how big is that problem really?

Yes - it does exist - a few women do get pregenant because it earns them more money. I don't believe it is as big a problem as some people think ... it's a small minority of solo parents. The rest are just clueless and get pregnant because they do not know how to use birth control ... or don't care ...

[caseye]

Yes - it does exist - a few women do get pregnant because it earns them more money. I don't believe it is as big a problem as some people think ... it's a small minority of solo parents. The rest are just clueless and get pregnant because they do not know how to use birth control ... or don't care ...

No, sorry bandit, in this day and age, of informed consents where schools can arrange for your child to be aborted without telling you, these young solo mums ( there are solo mums who don't do this, lets be clear)who have more than one child to most often more than one father, do so in the certain knowledge that they are going to get more Money.
That is these days the major motivating factor.
They do know and they expect us all to keep putting our hands in our pockets to keep them in the manner to which they have become accustomed.
I saw it everyday reading meter in any and all parts of Dorkland.
Home on the porch with their other solo mum mates drinking nice grog, smoking good weed, getting laid as often as they want and never having to work a day in their fucking lives.
not a few, not here and there, Everywhere.

[FJRider]

But it still makes me so sad, that we can allow our kids to grow up so damaged that they think their behaviour is okay.....

I think they know it's not OK ... just think it's normal. But they know they can get away with it ... and in most occasions they do.

And if at worst they get locked up ... no more worries about a place to sleep ... or food on the table.

[Road kill]

I think they know it's not OK ... just think it's normal. But they know they can get away with it ... and in most occasions they do.

And if at worst they get locked up ... no more worries about a place to sleep ... or food on the table.

One girl I know quite well that has two sprogs both to different losers completely believes it's "very Ok" and also very normal because her mother did exactly the same thing.

She lives in a house with another sister and two brothers "all of them on one benefit or another "and if you were to speak to any of them they would tell you in no uncertain words that there is no stigma to what they are doing and that it is accepted by most people today,,,So "YOU" should just get the fuck over it.

As much as I hate it "in a way I can see their point because "from my own point of view" all young people today feel they are entitled to different handouts because it's what they see everyday of their lives.

Race or social standing doesn't come into it "all young people today do know they have this safety net and if it really was wrong,,,well then it wouldn't exist would it ?

Therefore people like me are just bitter an twisted old people that just don't get it.

Which is also true.

[Genestho]

No, sorry bandit, in this day and age, of informed consents where schools can arrange for your child to be aborted without telling you, these young solo mums ( there are solo mums who don't do this, lets be clear)who have more than one child to most often more than one father, do so in the certain knowledge that they are going to get more Money.
That is these days the major motivating factor.
They do know and they expect us all to keep putting our hands in our pockets to keep them in the manner to which they have become accustomed.
I saw it everyday reading meter in any and all parts of Dorkland.
Home on the porch with their other solo mum mates drinking nice grog, smoking good weed, getting laid as often as they want and never having to work a day in their fucking lives.
not a few, not here and there, Everywhere.
Everywhere, my arse!!:rolleyes:

Sorry to burst your beneficiary bashing bubble but, it is just a small minority, don't tar the whole community with the same brush, please!!

Have you seen the state of the divorce rate? Have you ever raised kids on your own, how else should the financial (let alone emotional) raising of children be done, oh by the fathers as well, you say?

How many men dip their penises and then walk from their responsibility? HEAPS, I can tell you the amount of good women I know left by deadbeat dads, gone to sniff out another lifestyle then go on to squirt more kids into the world. The bludgers are a minority that I agree need dealing with, but deal with the deadbeat Dads as well, it's not one sided!

[caseye]

A bit touchy there genestho, I walked the streets reading meters for the best part of a year, streets in all suburbs of AK, what I saw would make your skin crawl.
I believe in an earlier post I said, they, both the girls and the boys who practice this sort of thievery against the majority should all be sterilised as part of the remedy.
By the way, I've just spent over 8 months convalescing after breaking a leg, to date I've had absolutely nothing from any NZ Govt agency, but my three still at home teenage daughters have all still got a roof over their heads,as well as all securing good jobs and having ongoing employment into next year.
My wife and I still manage with what we do have and have done without many of the things we'd normally have.
I also said very specifically in my last post that we needed to be clear not all solo mums do this, please read what is written before going off half cocked, hummm seems there's a good one shot,liner in there somewhere.

[Genestho]

A bit touchy there genestho, I walked the streets reading meters for the best part of a year, streets in all suburbs of AK, what I saw would make your skin crawl.
I believe in an earlier post I said, they, both the girls and the boys who practice this sort of thievery against the majority should all be sterilised as part of the remedy.
By the way, I've just spent over 8 months convalescing after breaking a leg, to date I've had absolutely nothing from any NZ Govt agency, but my three still at home teenage daughters have all still got a roof over their heads,as well as all securing good jobs and having ongoing employment into next year.
My wife and I still manage with what we do have and have done without many of the things we'd normally have.
I also said very specifically in my last post that we needed to be clear not all solo mums do this, please read what is written before going off half cocked, hummm seems there's a good one shot,liner in there somewhere.

Not touchy at all, you should see me on a touchy day!! :bleh: That's awesome and I'm glad you're able to organise your life well, I always have too.

But for some they have no support from anyone, never have and your post wreaks of stereotyping. Suburbs in Auckland are not the rest of New Zealand!!

[jasonu]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10852332

And still the cycle continues.

" Police believe the toddler's injuries were inflicted around November or December last year "by way of full immersion of his hands into boiling water".

Despite the boy's horrific injuries, no proper medical attention was provided until child protection agencies became involved by chance in August this year, it is alleged.

It was understood the toddler suffered severe burns and deformities, which even senior police and medical experts have found disturbing.

The burns extended to the boy's mid-wrists and he will need extensive skin-graft surgery for the wounds"

And she is trying to claim that the boy immersed his own hands up to the forearm by accident, and has no excuse for why she never sought medical care for him. I think that a fair punishment for child abusers is to have what they did to the child done to them and then a minimum 5 year jail term. Oh...and the government needs to stop subsidising breeding. Basic economics, subsidise something and you'll get more of it. Hence breeding for money with no love for the kids. Fuck, I am sick of this and sick of feeling helpless to help the helpless.

Fuck me, free on bail???

[Edbear]

Fuck me, free on bail???

Yeah, but at least the boy is out of her care and can get the treatment he needs.

[Banditbandit]

Fuck me, free on bail???

Would it be any different in the great U S of A?

[jasonu]

Would it be any different in the great U S of A?

I believe yes to that. The yanks don't (usually) fuck about when it comes to kiddie fiddlers and/or abusers and they don't (usually) get any mercy from the courts. And IF they did get bail the amount would be out of reach of most people anyway.

[mashman]

One girl I know quite well that has two sprogs both to different losers completely believes it's "very Ok" and also very normal because her mother did exactly the same thing.

She lives in a house with another sister and two brothers "all of them on one benefit or another "and if you were to speak to any of them they would tell you in no uncertain words that there is no stigma to what they are doing and that it is accepted by most people today,,,So "YOU" should just get the fuck over it.

As much as I hate it "in a way I can see their point because "from my own point of view" all young people today feel they are entitled to different handouts because it's what they see everyday of their lives.

Race or social standing doesn't come into it "all young people today do know they have this safety net and if it really was wrong,,,well then it wouldn't exist would it ?

Therefore people like me are just bitter an twisted old people that just don't get it.

Which is also true.

In ways I agree with you M. In others re: entitlement I don't. Yes they know what they can legally get... but that's the "fault" of the way we live. I highly doubt that they'd love to be lumped with several kids to several partners, but if it's paying the bills and offering easy street then I can't say I'm surprised that they're taking advantage of the system. You highlight as much. Reckon they'd use contraception if money wasn't the end game? I don't.

Someone mentioned divorce earlier. I read somewhere, statistics :shutup: (US I think) that they reckon 90% of divorces were due to financial issues. If that's anywhere near true then women getting preggers for money and people divorcing because of a lack of money boils down to one thing. Money. Yes it's my pet hate, but you yourself point out that that's why some girls do these things. Praps contraception would be more de rigueur if money wasn't an issue. As much as people may detest the idea, you're not going to stop it without getting rid of the reason that the "issue" exists.

Til that day, it's game on.