MOTO-NZ finally come up with something for all our money

[riffer]

Bloody yippee. After 18 months of work, and about $3 million of money stolen off motorcyclists, MSAC finally come up with something. And, most likely, it's going to be a paid study into why high-visibility vests should be compulsory for motorcyclists:




<tbody>
Title
https://www.gets.govt.nz/images/NewZealand.gifAdvance notice: Services to Investigate and Report on Options to Improve Motorcyclist Visibility


Notice of Information
<input name="TenderDetail:tbPurchaser" value="Accident Compensation Corporation" maxlength="100" readonly="readonly" style="border-style:None;min-height:100%;width:99%" type="text">


Your Reference Number
<input name="TenderDetail:tbReferenceNo" value="SB011211" maxlength="50" readonly="readonly" style="width:272px" type="text">


General Information
The Motorcycle Safety Advisory Council (MSAC) (also known as MOTO NZ) oversees the operation of the programme of initiatives funded by the Motorcycle Safety Levy.

MSAC’s role is to identify initiatives to improve on-road motorcycling safety that generate a positive response from all road users and relevant authorities.

The MSAC wishes to notify potentially interested respondents that it will shortly release a Request for Proposal (RFP) to identify a suitably experienced supplier to undertake a project to investigate and report on options for improving motorcyclist visibility and conspicuity.

The services will be undertaken in a staged manner and may include:

• a literature review of likely effective interventions;
• validating (road testing) selected interventions for the New Zealand context (if required); and
• developing a business case for funding priority interventions.

The Services will be more particularly described in an RFP document which will be issued on GETS in early December. The due date for responses will be specified in the RFP and is likely to be late February 2012.

No response to this Advance Notice is required – the Respond by Date is a mandatory field required by GETS.


Respond by Date
<input name="TenderDetail:tbRespondBy" value="Friday, 9th of December 2011 at 12:00 am" maxlength="100" readonly="readonly" style="border-style:None;min-height:100%;width:304px" type="text">


Address Enquiries to

<tbody>
Note: No response to this Notice is required. The ‘Respond by date’ below is a mandatory field in the GETS template.

Phil Wright
Secretariat MOTO NZ
PO Box 242
Thorndon
Wellington

Email: phil.wright@acc.co.nz

</tbody>


</tbody>

I apologise to everyone I told I thought it would make a difference.

[Luckylegs]

Speaking of late... Nice re-post :innocent:

[MSTRS]

Bit slow, old fella...have sent you an email you might find interesting

[riffer]

Sorry man - been head down bottom up on a large project of late and not been following the motonz thing.

Interesting stuff your email.

[MSTRS]

I'm not following them either. But your first post was put up by someone else a few days ago and I just had to speak up through their website.
Didn't actually expect a reply or dialogue

[bogan]

I'm still have about a 5% hope that they will review it, and decide that nothing needs to be mandatory, but that we need to be aware of the options and their effects, and maybe get a few more lighting options legalised. Perhaps not wise use of the MSL, but steps in the right direction with wrongfully obtained money, is still better than steps in the wrong direction with wrongfully obtained money I guess.

[cheshirecat]

of course a Hi Viz vest is a great place to put a slogan.

[Berries]

Not a bad idea.

251579

Our money. Our priorities.

[GrayWolf]

What may be worth investigating is,,, the information that was around when the UK Police started to use 'day lights' (diffused rather than a beam) in the UK in the early 1980's on their BMW boxer twins.....
could be a viable suggestion to put forwards as a 'reposte' to hi vis vests?

[StoneY]

They had a brilliant demonstration of the benefits of day lighting etc from the national Hella reps.
Yet still they head down the hi-viz road.....

The problem with this group is they are all too scared to speak the truth or try get the shit data corrected.
Shit in = shit out.

The last meeting I attended before I was sacked for demanding they redo the numbers and posting openly on Kiwibiker about the numbers as crunched by Charley Lamb, the subject of hi viz vests was discussed.
I told them any move to make it compulsory would result in very negative feedback. I got glared at by the grey heads, and ignored by Morgan and the ACC officials. It was writing on the wall by then. I had been pro actively left out of the loop long before that meeting.........

You want to know what the biggest waste of your money is though?
That fucking green line project.

Worst singular waste of cash in one day:
The Coro Loop project event at Thames. Thousands went on catering for 300 bikers.... 5 or 6 came on the day
6 days publicity - and held on a weekend with a large rally on (Cold Duck)
Fucking incredible

One day I should out the bastards with the reason I chose to walk back to the hotel after the dinner we had that night............... something to do with someones driving.

[Grantman_]

Good grief. I laugh to scorn the idea of making hi-vis compulsory. That such a debate even exists is evident of a titanic disconnect between ordinary riders and the nannying, hand wringing, professional busy bodies that fit well with the whole dumbing-down, kid glove, we-can-run-your-life-better-than-you slant society is taking on.

[bogan]

Not a bad idea.

251579

Our money. Our priorities.

hahaha, copyright that shit cos if high vis gets made compulsory, those would sell pretty well I think.

[Berries]

hahaha, copyright that shit cos if high vis gets made compulsory, those would sell pretty well I think.
I see their website has changed as well.

251805

[StoneY]

I see their website has changed as well.

251805

Ha Photoshop or what?
Nice work

I was sacked the day before that photoshoot - good timing!

[riffer]

Nice high-viz vests people.

[MSTRS]

Nice high-viz vests people.

Where? You're having us on, aren't you?

[sleemanj]

I see their website has changed as well.

251805

Hey! It's the Ulysses senior division, I wondered where they'd got to.

[Berries]

Where? You're having us on, aren't you?
I see what you did there.

I bet everyone missed the gorilla riding past on the quad bike though.

[StoneY]

I see what you did there.

I bet everyone missed the gorilla riding past on the quad bike though.

Not everyone... I was the Gorilla
:motu:

[Eyegasm]

I'll wear a hi-vis... Under my leather, cos leather is a fuckload safer than hi-vis bullshit.

They better word the legislation right...

[scracha]

I'll wear a hi-vis... Under my leather, cos leather is a fuckload safer than hi-vis bullshit.

They better word the legislation right...

Moto = More Old Timers Opinions ?

Sorry, but you nice kiwi sheeple chaps will all obey the government/acc dictators and sure as rain is rain, will all be wearing high vis vests next year.

[Big Dave]

I won't.

But I can't lane split - even at traffic lights :-(

[Berries]

I won't.


What are traffic lights?

[Big Dave]

I won't.


What are traffic lights?

:-)

When you get electricity down there you'll find out.

[MSTRS]

Moto = More Old Timers Opinions ?

Sorry, but you nice kiwi sheeple chaps will all obey the government/acc dictators and sure as rain is rain, will all be wearing high vis vests next year.

And a year or two down the line, when there is not a jot of difference in the accident stats, someone in high places will be scratching their head and coming up with some other damn fool idea to 'keep us safe', ad nauseum, before eventually deciding for our own good to ban motorcycles from the roads.

[Swoop]

And a year or two down the line, when there is not a jot of difference in the accident stats, someone in high places will be scratching their head ...
Yes. Fuck education.
Just waste money on consultants and then sew up some flouro.:facepalm:

[tui advert]It has to work, everyone else is wearing it.[/tui advert]

[Grantman_]

Moto = More Old Timers Opinions ?

Sorry, but you nice kiwi sheeple chaps will all obey the government/acc dictators and sure as rain is rain, will all be wearing high vis vests next year.

It's just not going to happen regardless of what the law says simply because there are loads of 'belligerent' bikers around who just wouldn't behave thank goodness. Can't imagine someone trying to force fluro over some rough as guts biker on his beloved Harley.

[cheshirecat]

One answer to compulsory fluro is to caption it accordingly, would be looking forward to the options. oh and cover it in road grime.

[davebullet]

For fucks sake.

I could wear a fluro fucking elephant on my head.

If drivers aren't looking - they are not going to see you. If a car driver can't be fucked turning their head a little more to their blind spot, or turning down their distractions, or one of 800+ using their cellphones recently....

That does it, stebel horn it is.

[scracha]

It's just not going to happen regardless of what the law says simply because there are loads of 'belligerent' bikers around who just wouldn't behave thank goodness. Can't imagine someone trying to force fluro over some rough as guts biker on his beloved Harley.

Belligerent bikers in New Zealand? You're dreaming. In the last few years, most motorcycles I see are doing erm...roughly 100k's in 100k zones. Can't say I see a lot of wheelstands these days. Most seem to be WOF'd. Most have headlights on.
Icing on cake....the hordes of "belligerent" bikers who said "fuck ACC, I'm not paying those exorbent rego's fees....grr !".......are basically being good sheeple who've rolled over and are now err....paying their rego fees.

Time to invest in floro vests bro

[Grantman_]

Belligerent bikers in New Zealand? You're dreaming. In the last few years, most motorcycles I see are doing erm...roughly 100k's in 100k zones. Can't say I see a lot of wheelstands these days. Most seem to be WOF'd. Most have headlights on.
Icing on cake....the hordes of "belligerent" bikers who said "fuck ACC, I'm not paying those exorbent rego's fees....grr !".......are basically being good sheeple who've rolled over and are now err....paying their rego fees.

Time to invest in floro vests bro

Yes to an extent. I see the idea of compulsory fluro as a poorly justified, quantum leap of interference in personal choice vs the easier situation of ramping up the existing rego gouge.

[caseye]

OK I'm a bit late on this none but has anyone else done this?

Hello there Phil.
My name is Mark Casidy.
I ride motorcycles, my wife also rides, between us we have three bikes in the shed. Two of which are used daily for commuting to and from work.
It is bad enough that the Govt already takes such a huge whack out of us for Rego.
Now to have a body set up to use funds stolen from us by the Govt and given to you lot to use as you see fit, is just too much.
I’m a former founding member of MAG NZ.
We started life as a protest group against the Govt taking further money from us under the auspices of keeping us safer on the roads as us motorcyclists were having more accidents.
Funny thing is, the basic statement is right.
Motorcyclists are having more accidents, more than ever before. Um there is a reason for this. Using ACC’s own figures there are now 4 times the number of motorcyclists on the roads today.
The accident rate had climbed to something approaching 20% more than when the last figures were taken way back in 1978.
Now though, with FOUR times the number of motorcyclists on the road that 20% is quoted by itself, the fact that there are in fact less than half of the accidents that used to happen when the old accident figures used are corrected for the numbers of motorcycles on the road.
This is all old hat, but just in case you didn’t know it, this is the case.
We as a group were shafted, the Govt picked on us first and all other motorists thought yeah right give it to em up the arse, bloody motorcyclists deserve all they get. Some Do!
We did ask “Who’s Next” at the Bikhoi.
We did say they’re going to come after you too, but no one was listening.
The true figure of the number of motorcycles that attended the Bikhoi is over 9900 and that was not counting the many hundreds who like me and friends of mine parked up in the city and walked to Parliament. The minister was absolutely gob smacked to see so many.
We should not have gone peacefully we should have caused as much disruption as we could have and really made em understand, fuck with us and we’re going to paint your bloody town red!
That’s not a mistake that will happen next time.
The group of which you are one was ostensibly made up of bikers and others involved in transport etc.
Some of us thought seeing the names and knowing the issues that things might be different when you lot got going.
Imagine our horror when we see this sort of BS coming from your offices.
The poor barstard who was killed in Drury recently wasn’t wearing a fluro vest, had he been he’d still be bloody dead, you see when other motorists are not looking they don’t see ANYTHING.
Spend that money wisely, pay for studies into better barriers that will at least afford motorcyclists some protection if they come off, get road side furniture moved/replaced to make the sides of our roads safer. Physically inspect our roads and have the Ministry of Jerks fix the really bad ones. This we’d support you in doing, but vests!
No Way Nick is going to be the response once again.
Next time though that is about all that will be said.
The Actions Will Speak Louder Than Words.

Sent to mr Phil Wright today after reading this thread.
It's what needs to be done you lot, get right up em.

[bsasuper]

I can picture it, thousands of fluro vests getting caught in the wind, ripping off and causing traffic hazards all over the country.Happens all the time.

[Swoop]

I can picture it, thousands of fluro vests getting caught in the wind, ripping off and causing traffic hazards all over the country.Happens all the time.

Correct.
If the gubbinment's morons want to hand out "free" vests, tell them to look on the sides of the road since there bloody heaps located there!

[Berries]

OK I'm a bit late on this none but has anyone else done this?
At this stage it is the beginning of research project. For all we know MotoNZ have set up this research to show once and for all that hi-viz will not make any measurable difference to our crash rate and thus other issues such as rider education should be targeted by government.





And I believe in Santa.

[BMWST?]

headlights AND Flouro Vests...I already wear a RED jacket

[Scuba_Steve]

Correct.
If the gubbinment's morons want to hand out "free" vests, tell them to look on the sides of the road since there bloody heaps located there!

Hey if they want to hand out free vests thats cool, I sometimes need something to tie onto the loads I tow with the cage

[Conquiztador]

Moto = More Old Timers Opinions ?

Sorry, but you nice kiwi sheeple chaps will all obey the government/acc dictators and sure as rain is rain, will all be wearing high vis vests next year.
I won't.


Belligerent bikers in New Zealand? You're dreaming. In the last few years, most motorcycles I see are doing erm...roughly 100k's in 100k zones. Can't say I see a lot of wheelstands these days. Most seem to be WOF'd. Most have headlights on.
Icing on cake....the hordes of "belligerent" bikers who said "fuck ACC, I'm not paying those exorbent rego's fees....grr !".......are basically being good sheeple who've rolled over and are now err....paying their rego fees.

Time to invest in floro vests bro
3 road bikes, one paid rego here. I think that is good value!


Hey if they want to hand out free vests thats cool, I sometimes need something to tie onto the loads I tow with the cage
I use PNS plastic bags.

Before the election I was contemplating the value of a Bikers Party. I hear there is a new election coming up in just over 2 years...

[GrayWolf]

OK I'm a bit late on this none but has anyone else done this?

Hello there Phil.
My name is Mark Casidy.
I ride motorcycles, my wife also rides, between us we have three bikes in the shed. Two of which are used daily for commuting to and from work.
It is bad enough that the Govt already takes such a huge whack out of us for Rego.
Now to have a body set up to use funds stolen from us by the Govt and given to you lot to use as you see fit, is just too much.
I’m a former founding member of MAG NZ.
We started life as a protest group against the Govt taking further money from us under the auspices of keeping us safer on the roads as us motorcyclists were having more accidents.
Funny thing is, the basic statement is right.
Motorcyclists are having more accidents, more than ever before. Um there is a reason for this. Using ACC’s own figures there are now 4 times the number of motorcyclists on the roads today.
The accident rate had climbed to something approaching 20% more than when the last figures were taken way back in 1978.
Now though, with FOUR times the number of motorcyclists on the road that 20% is quoted by itself, the fact that there are in fact less than half of the accidents that used to happen when the old accident figures used are corrected for the numbers of motorcycles on the road.
This is all old hat, but just in case you didn’t know it, this is the case.
We as a group were shafted, the Govt picked on us first and all other motorists thought yeah right give it to em up the arse, bloody motorcyclists deserve all they get. Some Do!
We did ask “Who’s Next” at the Bikhoi.
We did say they’re going to come after you too, but no one was listening.
The true figure of the number of motorcycles that attended the Bikhoi is over 9900 and that was not counting the many hundreds who like me and friends of mine parked up in the city and walked to Parliament. The minister was absolutely gob smacked to see so many.
We should not have gone peacefully we should have caused as much disruption as we could have and really made em understand, fuck with us and we’re going to paint your bloody town red!
That’s not a mistake that will happen next time.
The group of which you are one was ostensibly made up of bikers and others involved in transport etc.
Some of us thought seeing the names and knowing the issues that things might be different when you lot got going.
Imagine our horror when we see this sort of BS coming from your offices.
The poor barstard who was killed in Drury recently wasn’t wearing a fluro vest, had he been he’d still be bloody dead, you see when other motorists are not looking they don’t see ANYTHING.
Spend that money wisely, pay for studies into better barriers that will at least afford motorcyclists some protection if they come off, get road side furniture moved/replaced to make the sides of our roads safer. Physically inspect our roads and have the Ministry of Jerks fix the really bad ones. This we’d support you in doing, but vests!
No Way Nick is going to be the response once again.
Next time though that is about all that will be said.
The Actions Will Speak Louder Than Words.

Sent to mr Phil Wright today after reading this thread.
It's what needs to be done you lot, get right up em.

REALITY IS?
They are Govt funded, so they are going to toe the Govt 'line'..... If they ignotr Govt (ACC) input and 'requireements'? Their funding, ergo nice little jobs will go down the tubes....
WELL cover me in butter and wrap me in glad wrap, then call me a cynic!!

[GrayWolf]

Doubled posting

[StoneY]

O
Sent to mr Phil Wright today after reading this thread.
It's what needs to be done you lot, get right up em.

Mark, I love you like a brother man, but this email would not even have gotten past the firewall dude.
Its a govt email sever hosting his mailbox, its swear filtered.

Take out the the expletives, and resend old pal.

Love ya take on it but unlike Kiwibiker, the ACC email servers will bin this message without even telling you it happened and Phil will not receive it.

You coming down on the FBMC run in February?

[caseye]

Done and me ol mate.
Yes I am! Be looking for that Coldie when I get there an all.

[StoneY]

Good man.

I think every single group in NZ (MAG, BRONZ, HOGG, etc) should be having more interaction with this council.

Crush this hi viz foolishness, demand they start adapting the methods of road engineering the Aussies use (no they do NOT take your bends out of the road they just fix all the barriers, signs, shit surfaces, and line of sight issues)
Better off with HID LEDs being fitted at a subsidized fee (MSL can pay 50% of the cost) than wearing a road workers vest that cant be seen for your windscreen, or your top box/pack racks.....

Allegedly I was sacked for not following the coms 'rules' (never signed anything so what fuckin rules?)
They said it was for blogging on Kiwibiker.
Yet others on that same council still post here too.
Some say for 'what I posted' on KB, yet other than one mistakenly over detailed post that I edited and cleaned up nothing that was Council Specific was posted on here. I also appologised to them, and was assured no issue.


They asked me to open the Coro Loop event thread, then GM quotes those posting dates as me breaching the comms plan - THAT is a deliberate setup.

The progress to date is pathetic.
Coro Loop at Thames - EPIC fail and HUGE waste of funds.
30k on 'text DUNG' FFS what a crock! Should do an OIA request to ask how many texts have been received.
Now they want to to investigate Hi Viz issues, like there is not already 300+ studies out there that cancel each other out!



I still think its a great concept, but unfortunately its being managed by people who are not willing to stand up to the establishment and say 'Our way NOT your way'


That's me on this bullshit and I have nothing more to say

[Grantman_]

I still think its a great concept, but unfortunately its being managed by people who are not willing to stand up to the establishment and say 'Our way NOT your way'


People get enamoured with the importance of their positions while beginning to feel pressure from more important people for whatever agendas. Eventually the week get caught up in it and start acting for a perceived 'greater good'.

Hardline, uncooperative belligerence would achieve dramatic results quickly. Compliant diplomacy and compromise is a choice for defeat - at cooking-the-frog speed.

[pc220]

Studies, proposals, research, ammendmants, investigations, surveys = A fucken great waste of OUR money.
Where Does this Morgan chap live ? I feel the need to drop a big sloppy turd on his doorstep.

[caseye]

Studies, proposals, research, ammendmants, investigations, surveys = A fucken great waste of OUR money.
Where Does this Morgan chap live ? I feel the need to drop a big sloppy turd on his doorstep.

I get the feeling you already know where he lives and if like me you are a Putaruru boy born and breed, you most certainly knew him growing up.Personally I'm downright ashamed of all the things he's said and done of late, including but not excluding his rantings about redistribution of wealth accumulated by those of us who work hard to the ones with their sniveling hands out expecting us to support them.

[James Deuce]

People get enamoured with the importance of their positions while beginning to feel pressure from more important people for whatever agendas. Eventually the week get caught up in it and start acting for a perceived 'greater good'.

Hardline, uncooperative belligerence would achieve dramatic results quickly. Compliant diplomacy and compromise is a choice for defeat - at cooking-the-frog speed.

Rubbish. As soon as they started paying Council Members the writing was on the wall.

[Grantman_]

Rubbish. As soon as they started paying Council Members the writing was on the wall.

that fits right in.

[Hitcher]

As soon as they showed interest in hi viz clothing, it was obvious that this was a well-funded organisation bereft of a legitimate cause or meaningful insight.

Also their reluctance to communicate with bikers and their representative organisations shows that there is a massive disconnect between the members of this body and reality.

It's a gravy train, brothers and sisters. Be very clear about that.

[Brian407]

Was obvious way before that. Alarm bells should have started ringing the moment Gareth Morgan was 'appointed' (bought his way in) to the council.

Mans an idiot, albiet a rich idiot, but an idiot none the less.

[Bikemad]

so...........ummmm........who makes the hi viz vests and..........ummm.........can i buy some shares in the company

[Brian407]

Too late, the politicians and the so called 'safety council' have snapped 'em all up already.

[Conquiztador]

Too late, the politicians and the so called 'safety council' have snapped 'em all up already.

I hear that 49% will be sold to mums and dads to keep it in the country...

[StoneY]

.

It's a gravy train, brothers and sisters. Be very clear about that.

NOT for me it wasn't mate.
I was a believer.....

[Brian407]

NOT for me it wasn't mate.
I was a believer.....

.....until it was discovered that your, probably highly commendable, ideals didnt fit within ACC's terms of reference. As soon as they fiqured that out the plot to ditch you was hatched.

[Conquiztador]

I also commend anyone who gets involved because they believe in the mission and that they can make a differnce. In this case it has never been about bikers but statistics.

[NONONO]

NOT for me it wasn't mate.
I was a believer.....

Sorry mate, someone had to eh?
Happy New Year.
http://youtu.be/XfuBREMXxts

[NONONO]

Or maybe more appropriately...
http://youtu.be/2uohP4gk0wU
:facepalm: Someone stop me!

[StoneY]

LOL I loved that TV show when I was a kid.

No offense taken at all bro....

[NONONO]

LOL I loved that TV show when I was a kid.

No offense taken at all bro....

No offense meant StoneY. None at all.

[Pedrostt500]

Hi Viz Vests probably get them made for about $ 1.00 each, but still won't educate the nut holding either the handel bars or steering wheel.

[Berries]

Not sure if anyone has read the RFT, but there are a couple of interesting factoids hidden away in there. There are some hi-viz wearing rates quoted from research carried out in 1996 with a note that –


Note: While this research was carried out in the mid-1990s when there wasn’t a large selection of hi-vis motorcycle clothing available, it is doubtful the results would be too different should a similar report be conducted today.
Hmmmm. I see people riding in hi-viz most days now. I would have thought a sensible starting point would at least be to carry out a survey to determine where we are right now, rather than base the whole thing on data 15 years old.

The other bit that caught my eye was -


In particular the visibility and conspicuity of motorcycles was the causal factor in 37% of injury crashes. [Since 2002]
Being familiar with the way crashes are coded and interrogated I highly doubt the accuracy of this statement. I won’t bother going in to detail, but how can visibility and conspicuity be considered causal factors, unless you are riding at night with no lights and dark clothing?

Anyway, just realised in another thread that if we did all wear hi-viz and did all wear the same white helmets we could stop worrying about forward facing speed cameras. Every cloud etc etc. Perhaps MotoNZ are acting for us all.

[BMWST?]

they dont know what they are doing...they have just made headlights compulsory...will that be rescinded if hi viz becomes mandatory?

[caseye]

A reply from Mr Phil Wright of MOTTO NZ. No worries about having a rant. K.
Thinks that some of my points were valid and worth investigation, my points? OK I said em in the email. The points.
Investigate motorcycle friendly barriers.
Move road furniture form dangerous positions.
MOTTO NZ to Physically inspect bad roads and have the ministry of jerks as "Quoted" re do the bloody things with a view to having all motorists able to negotiate them without fear of death or worse,with particular reference to motorcyclists of course.
'
No Hi Viz probably not an answer in itself and most likely not going to become compulsory.
Do read the blog coming out this month form MOTTO NZ.
OK, I'll read, when it comes out.
Hummm, how far do I take this?

[StoneY]

Hummm, how far do I take this?

I'll introduce you to him when ya come down for the FBMC run if you like...I know where his office is at :)

[avgas]

If this does happen. And I am calmly out riding and the cops try and pull me over for high viz, im gonna boot it.
I am going to keep booting it until some form of TV (10-7, the news etc) turns up. Then I am going to pull over.
When they say "We were only going to pull you over for your compulsory Hi-Viz" I will simply reply......



"If I needed that then how the fuck did you see me and keep chasing me?"

Be the second most fun I have had in hand-cuffs I reckon.

[fossil]

I started reading this thread but gave up looking for the bit where MSAC said they are going to make Hi Viz compulsory, can someone repost it because I can't find it anywhere?

[MSTRS]

I guess the number is less important than the percentage, but if 100,000 can't stop the lunacy...
http://www.righttoride.eu/?p=8934

[Grantman_]

The more beligerent a big lobby group is, the better the results. Ongoing diplomacy and compromise is just slowly cooking the goose.

Fossil - the research will most likely lay a foundation for legislators to push compulsory hi-vis. That's the issue.

[MSTRS]

The more beligerent a big lobby group is, the better the results. Ongoing diplomacy and compromise is just slowly cooking the goose.



They don't come more belligerent than a pissed off Frenchman...but their govt was not to be denied.
Granted, the govt 'backed down' on the full hi vis thing (so far) and made it compulsory to wear a 150cm2 piece of reflector somewhere between the waist and neck. Remember, they already have to have a reflector on their helmets.
So - a piece of reflector 150mm x 100mm is required...all the piping on your cordura or some leathers isn't enough, and when the results of the new law are in (and they won't be stunning) the govt will simply say "Well, that wasn't enough. Let's go with the full hi-vis AND reflectors." And the bikers will protest, the govt will 'back down' and simply make the required patch bigger. Ad nauseum.
That is exactly what is happening here, in it's many forms. Just like the so-called backdown on the rate of increase to ACC.

[GrayWolf]

They don't come more belligerent than a pissed off Frenchman...but their govt was not to be denied.
Granted, the govt 'backed down' on the full hi vis thing (so far) and made it compulsory to wear a 150cm2 piece of reflector somewhere between the waist and neck. Remember, they already have to have a reflector on their helmets.
So - a piece of reflector 150mm x 10mm is required...all the piping on your cordura or some leathers isn't enough, and when the results of the new law are in (and they won't be stunning) the govt will simply say "Well, that wasn't enough. Let's go with the full hi-vis AND reflectors." And the bikers will protest, the govt will 'back down' and simply make the required patch bigger. Ad nauseum.
That is exactly what is happening here, in it's many forms. Just like the so-called backdown on the rate of increase to ACC.

Sadly I have to agree with that statement. I think I said elsewhere that the Govt. have a 'WE WANT' and what they reasonably expect to get through. The $500 was the 'reasonable' $700 was the (we'll let them 'barrack' us and they'll believe they've won something). I would prefer a day riding light to headlights, but the govt's have never listened to the research that shows there is an issue for distance /speed judgement with a 'beamed' light when compared to a diffused light. Or a diffused light is actualy more 'visible'. So I can see in the future, Hi Vis, Flouro yellow/green helmets, headlights, maybe pulsing LED's and I can forsee something similar to Europe with a 'stepped' licence system, 100bhp Power restrictions and homologation for type for any aftermarket fittings. Scary thing about that is, that even a tyre must be 'approved' for your particular model and make of bike. The one possibly helpful thing would be a standard for both AUs and NZ to be adapted by both govt's. Then you'd have the power of both countries riders. As I have pointed out before with the 1980's leg protectors in UK, it took English groups AND the Federation of European Motorcyclists to squash it fully.

[Grantman_]

They don't come more belligerent than a pissed off Frenchman...but their govt was not to be denied.


I'd bet belligerent too late, and only after pandering to the government beforehand with assorted concessions.

The NRA is a good example of the necessary attitude, (although allowing for the fact we have no constitution to back us). Lobby groups that are supposed to support bikers, that do not have this 'attitude', are more of a liability to bikers than anything.

[riffer]

Lobby groups that are supposed to support bikers, that do not have this 'attitude', are more of a liability to bikers than anything.

What a load of steaming unmitigated horseshit.

[Grantman_]

What a load of steaming unmitigated horseshit.

Having dealt with firearms lobbying in this country I believe it 100%. You'll realise at some point, unless you're already neck deep in the pandering that's going on in which case you are perpetuating it.

[chasio]

Can't see this linked already....

This impeccably researched and balanced Harold arse-tickle (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/motoring/news/article.cfm?c_id=9&objectid=10778140)quotes Paul Searancke (as MSAC deputy chairman) and repeats the usual inflated risk numbers.

I feel ever so well represented.

[avgas]

Can't see this linked already....
This impeccably researched and balanced Harold arse-tickle (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/motoring/news/article.cfm?c_id=9&objectid=10778140)quotes Paul Searancke (as MSAC deputy chairman) and repeats the usual inflated risk numbers.
I feel ever so well represented.

He says bigger works such as road realignments are not so cheap or easy and unlikely to happen in the current economic climate. They could, however, be incorporated into future roading projects.
How the fuck can he recommend taking out the corners???!!!!!!!!!
We are not represented we are fucked.
I hope I never come across this guy in real life, because I don't think I could stop smacking him in the face.

[riffer]

How the fuck can he recommend taking out the corners???!!!!!!!!!
We are not represented we are fucked.
I hope I never come across this guy in real life, because I don't think I could stop smacking him in the face.

Calm down mate. We're more than likely reading a reporter's interpretation of something Paul's said. "Road realignments" aren't necessarily corner straightening. It's more to do with camber, sightlines, changing the way a corner works in order to give greater visibility in an area where hills and trees may create a false impression.

There's actually some quite good science around the whole thing.

[avgas]

Calm down mate. We're more than likely reading a reporter's interpretation of something Paul's said. "Road realignments" aren't necessarily corner straightening. It's more to do with camber, sightlines, changing the way a corner works in order to give greater visibility in an area where hills and trees may create a false impression.

There's actually some quite good science around the whole thing.
Fair enough.
However if I can misinterpret it.............who says the government knows what he is talking about.

If you can't say something clearly and concisely.......don't say it at all.
You have to remember how to think like the Government.....
"Motorbike are not being seen" = "Motorcyclists need to wear hi-viz"
"Taxes are too high" = "Income is too low"
"We have too much debt" = "Sell out state assets"
and
"Roads need to be realigned" = "Take the dangerous corners out of the road"

[Berries]

Oh dear. The 18x more dangerous quote is actually an understatement according to MotoNZ - http://motonz.org.nz/join-the-debate/

[StoneY]

Oh dear. The 18x more dangerous quote is actually an understatement according to MotoNZ - http://motonz.org.nz/join-the-debate/

One of the things I constantly contested.... no wonder they didn't like me :laugh:

[Scuba_Steve]

We need the option to start picking which bike group our 30$ goes to I think

[Viking01]

Just paid the rego for the Honda yesterday ($528). Thought that since I had received a little glossy flier for MOTO NZ, I'd have another look at their website and see what has been added. Discussion on need for reduced road toll/injuries and improved riding skills and behaviour - all very laudable and don't disagree on the need.

However, I wouldn't consider contributing feedback to MOTO NZ - not because I don't think safety is a priority (it is), but because it all feels like a distraction.

Why do I feel annoyed:
Scope of Debate
Target Group
Political Influence
Lack of Well-Packaged Data


1. Scope of Debate
The Crown has a unique power in being able to charge taxes and levies, but in doing so reserves the right to control the political debate. Read the MOTO NZ Terms of Reference, and it is all safety focused. Not wrong with that, except:
a. Why is the debate simply limited to safety ? Why is 'funding model' and 'equity of contribution' not up for debate as well ?

Think the Terms of Reference is more interesting for what it does not include.

2. Target Group
Why just focus on motorcyclists (and not on other cyclists as well, and on other "dangerous activities for that matter) when discussing safety - and contribution to funding ?

Seems like I'm being categorised as "dangerous" simply because I ride a motorcycle, and being unfairly penalised accordingly.

3. Political Influence
What degree of political influence does MOTO NZ think they'll achieve (as opposed to providing 'political cover 'or 'evidence of action' ). I'd feel much happier if the party receiving 'advice' was somehow compelled to take account ot it - and by this I mean the minister (and not ACC).

It would also be good if the minister involved (i) had some interest in motorcycling and its positive benefits (ii) saw safety as more a social imperative and less a cost saving exercise - instead of trying to privatise ACC as fast as possible.

4. Lack of Well Packaged Data
There may be parcels of data out in the public forum, but they don't necessarily appear readily visible or well packaged. By providing some more data in better form - with some decent analysis by (say) age / engine size / location / licence level - plus some commom metrics, maybe we could get past the current political situation where only one side seems to have the data and can control the debate.

The last parcel of structured data and comment I saw was that of Dr Lamb from Lincoln about 2 years ago. There may have been others since then, but have certainly not seen them.

Summary.
1. That the focus on safety (while important) is via a government funded and controlled channel (which shifts debate away from discussion on other important items such as funding)
2. That it gives support to the argument that motorcycling is inherently more dangerous than other pursuits, and to why levies should be correspondingly higher than for other groups.
3. That our politicans don't necessarily have increased safety as one of their primary imperatives.
4. That the lack of readily available and well structured data hinders debate - it would be nice to have a more level playing field.

Cheers

[NONONO]

God bless ya Mr Viking, where to begin?

[MSTRS]

God bless ya Mr Viking, where to begin?

Madame Guillotine would be a good place...

[StoneY]

Madame Guillotine would be a good place...

Well with the revelations about Slippery Nick and an ex National volunteer coming out of the mists, you never know......

[riffer]

a. Why is the debate simply limited to safety ? Why is 'funding model' and 'equity of contribution' not up for debate as well ?
Because the Terms of Reference were decided by the previous Minister of ACC. He did not want to include anything else.


Why just focus on motorcyclists (and not on other cyclists as well, and on other "dangerous activities for that matter) when discussing safety - and contribution to funding ?
Because there is no current way to tax them. The National Government does not want to be seen to be creating any new taxes unless they can find a way to single out a group and open them to derision by the general population.


What degree of political influence does MOTO NZ think they'll achieve
None. MOTO NZ is designed from the start to be non-political. In fact they are not allowed to be.


There may be parcels of data out in the public forum, but they don't necessarily appear readily visible or well packaged. By providing some more data in better form - with some decent analysis by (say) age / engine size / location / licence level - plus some commom metrics, maybe we could get past the current political situation where only one side seems to have the data and can control the debate. The last parcel of structured data and comment I saw was that of Dr Lamb from Lincoln about 2 years ago. There may have been others since then, but have certainly not seen them.

Well-packaged data have a bad habit of making government-created organisations like MOTO-NZ look like the shams they are. MOTO-NZ have made a point of ignoring the good Doctor Lamb's research on many occasions. His data showed conclusively that the largest group by far having motorcycle accidets was 18-24 year olds on 250s.

[StoneY]

None. MOTO NZ is designed from the start to be non-political. In fact they are not allowed to be.



.

Mate, that is one term they totally failed. Never met a more politically sensitive group in my life - no wonder I never fitted in :)

[riffer]

Mate, that is one term they totally failed. Never met a more politically sensitive group in my life - no wonder I never fitted in :)

Indeed. I wonder if a wee call to RNZ wouldn't be out of line now, given the last day's news. just saying...

[MrKiwi]

Because the Terms of Reference were decided by the previous Minister of ACC. He did not want to include anything else.


Because there is no current way to tax them. The National Government does not want to be seen to be creating any new taxes unless they can find a way to single out a group and open them to derision by the general population.


None. MOTO NZ is designed from the start to be non-political. In fact they are not allowed to be.



Well-packaged data have a bad habit of making government-created organisations like MOTO-NZ look like the shams they are. MOTO-NZ have made a point of ignoring the good Doctor Lamb's research on many occasions. His data showed conclusively that the largest group by far having motorcycle accidets was 18-24 year olds on 250s.

Not true - MotoNZ has copies of all of Lambs motorcycle research and they have also had a lengthy presentation from him. From all accounts it was very informative...

[caseye]

Not true - MotoNZ has copies of all of Lambs motorcycle research and they have also had a lengthy presentation from him. From all accounts it was very informative...

You know this how? and if it happened do you believe that any of those sitting on the MOTO board have in any way been swayed?
Most in these threads have actually attempted to change things, have you?

[StoneY]

Not true - MotoNZ has copies of all of Lambs motorcycle research and they have also had a lengthy presentation from him. From all accounts it was very informative...

You call 15 minutes lengthy David? Because thats the time he got to present his data, and another 10 minutes of QnA.

As you were there (as was I) pray tell me how informative it was when Dr Lamb was (behind the scenes) accused of using biased data and targeted outcomes? The presentation was specifically on car vs bike collisions and what did it show us?
250cc bikes with learners under age 25 were OVER REPRESENTED in ALL crashes and in car vs bike we had 70+% fault landing on visiblity issues affecting the non motorcyclist.
PURE FUCKING GOLD

AND the fact there were so may errors in the data entry - 7100cc kawasaki's, 2,500cc bike with a learner rider on it.....

I would love you to write on here YOUR interpertation of Dr Lambs version of the truth versus the councils version...... especialy when you tell me Dr Lamb has been selective in his approach.

Oh thats right - Gareth might get upset at such honesty... forget it dude. Don't want the truth to over ride the instructions Nick Smith gave Gareth on what is acceptable and not etc.....
We would hate to see anyone on the MOTO NZ stick there necks out...... for us MOTORCYCLISTS would we?

The prime reason Morgan gave Smith FOR my sacking was that I blogged 'council business' on here, on Kiwibiker.
Specifically reffering to my posting Dr Lambs analysis on Kiwibiker at that ffs.
Never mind Dr Lamb's data was in the public by his own presentation at the Cashmere club 13 months before he met MOTO huh?

LENGTHY presentation my arse.
The guys from Hella trying to sell Hi Discharge LEDs got 4x as much presentation time as the good Dr and not ONE of their team is a world reknowned PHD are they? Or the head of The Australaisian Intstitute of Motorcycle Studies...

Dr Lamb deserves days of your teams time not bloody MINUTES for for fucks sake!

[StoneY]

You know this how? and if it happened do you believe that any of those sitting on the MOTO board have in any way been swayed?
Most in these threads have actually attempted to change things, have you?

He is one of MOTO NZ Mark.
Up until THIS post you have confronted him on, he was the one I had the most faith in!

Fact is Dr Lamb was given presentation time after months of my lobbying for this group to see his data.
He was treated with an amazing ammount of respect I may add, and the whole group was gobsmacked at his data.

However...as soon as he left the room, the accusations of 'targeted data mining' and other nasty alegations started rising the ugly heads, and as I have since come to appreciate this council aint about TRUTH, it is about satisfying the Ministers need to be seen to 'do something'.
Should send my MINISTERIAL LETTERHEAD written letter in which I was sacked because Morgan and a few others in this group had a cry to Nick, because they simply don't have the balls to stand up for whats RIGHT!

CORO LOOP - epic fuckin fail - thousands wasted for 7 replies - thats right 7. 7 people sent in information.
5 people and 2 pillions showed on the day and food for 300 (posh food at that) went to the city mission.

TEXT DUNG
FFS .... they put 30k aside for that when only 15k was ASKED FOR!!!! Tht's 30,000 registered bikes worth of contribution for one year - or - 5km worth of crash barriers (armco style) retro fitted with skid plates to stop YOU sliding underneath it.
I know I was present at the 'Forum of Motorocycle Clubs' meeting that came up with the fucking idea to start with.....
It was a request for 15k - somehow it was seen as such a WONDERFUL idea that one of thos 'decision makers' decided it could have 30K instead!
And that decision was made by no committee at all _ I was on the Projects Group. Came to a meeting one day to be told 30k was now allocated to this TEXT DUNG project - there was no vote - no group concensus - just the word coming on down this was now approved.
Utter bullshit.

[riffer]

So...

how long before David Crawford finds himself off the MOTONZ council for the crime of posting on Kiwibiker?

[StoneY]

So...

how long before David Crawford finds himself off the MOTONZ council for the crime of posting on Kiwibiker?

Frankly - I think it is high time motorcyclists started demanding results.
Also start demanding to know whats been spent and on what.

It is time for MOTO NZ to be accountable for SOMETHING other than a huge feed for the K Road homeless community.

I had loads of faith in this council until the coro loop debacle.
And TXT DUNG - I would like to know how many reports have been recieved, and how many farmers and transporters have had a tune up from those reports....
I will bet its less than 100 reports and guaranteed not ONE truckie or farmer has been contacted about spillage.

I want to see safety nets on the WRB's, and slide panels retro fitted to ARMCO, and moss removed from major motorcycle routes that have loads of shady days to let the lichen grow on the surface.
THAT would be far better value for our money than Hi Viz investigations, overspending on food for people who went to a bike rally instead, and funding research on bloody intersection behaviour.

[MSTRS]

TEXT DUNG
FFS .... they put 30k aside for that when only 15k was ASKED FOR!!!! Tht's 30,000 registered bikes worth of contribution for one year ...

Hear ya, Stoney. The McSAC is worthy of our utter contempt and has earned every word of derision aimed at them. But...
I have to point out the glaring arithmetical error above. I don't seem to recall there being $1 added to MY rego...

[riffer]

And TXT DUNG - I would like to know how many reports have been recieved, and how many farmers and transporters have had a tune up from those reports....
I will bet its less than 100 reports and guaranteed not ONE truckie or farmer has been contacted about spillage.

I'm seriously thinking about bombarding MOTO-NZ with OIA requests. I wonder how far I'll get?

[bogan]

I'm seriously thinking about bombarding MOTO-NZ with OIA requests. I wonder how far I'll get?

Reckon it is about time for that sort of thing, got my two regos due in a few weeks, that'll make $120 they have taken from me so far. That's new glove money! :cry:

[avgas]

Thanks for the reminder - I just updated my rego being on hold.
Hopefully the MotoNZ accounts are starting to choke a little.

[Hitcher]

I'm seriously thinking about bombarding MOTO-NZ with OIA requests. I wonder how far I'll get?

I doubt that Moto-NZ is OIAable. But ACC, on the other hand, will be. Your first OIA to ACC should discover that.

A decent OIA campaign is one that requires just enough use of officials' and resources time to avoid being smacked for time-wasting costs, yet is hard enough work to press them tightly on their 20-day deadline. My nipples have hardened imagining the prospect.

I've been on the receiving end of enough of those over the years to know how the game works. If I'm ever able to retire, these sorts of pursuits could be a great way to fill in the evening hours.

[MrKiwi]

You call 15 minutes lengthy David? Because thats the time he got to present his data, and another 10 minutes of QnA.

As you were there (as was I) pray tell me how informative it was when Dr Lamb was (behind the scenes) accused of using biased data and targeted outcomes? The presentation was specifically on car vs bike collisions and what did it show us?
250cc bikes with learners under age 25 were OVER REPRESENTED in ALL crashes and in car vs bike we had 70+% fault landing on visiblity issues affecting the non motorcyclist.
PURE FUCKING GOLD

AND the fact there were so may errors in the data entry - 7100cc kawasaki's, 2,500cc bike with a learner rider on it.....

I would love you to write on here YOUR interpertation of Dr Lambs version of the truth versus the councils version...... especialy when you tell me Dr Lamb has been selective in his approach.

Oh thats right - Gareth might get upset at such honesty... forget it dude. Don't want the truth to over ride the instructions Nick Smith gave Gareth on what is acceptable and not etc.....
We would hate to see anyone on the MOTO NZ stick there necks out...... for us MOTORCYCLISTS would we?

The prime reason Morgan gave Smith FOR my sacking was that I blogged 'council business' on here, on Kiwibiker.
Specifically reffering to my posting Dr Lambs analysis on Kiwibiker at that ffs.
Never mind Dr Lamb's data was in the public by his own presentation at the Cashmere club 13 months before he met MOTO huh?

LENGTHY presentation my arse.
The guys from Hella trying to sell Hi Discharge LEDs got 4x as much presentation time as the good Dr and not ONE of their team is a world reknowned PHD are they? Or the head of The Australaisian Intstitute of Motorcycle Studies...

Dr Lamb deserves days of your teams time not bloody MINUTES for for fucks sake!

Brent - I'm not sure why you have reacted so strongly. The post I responded to said MotoNZ had done nothing with Charles Lamb work. That is not true. MotoNZ has his work, he was invited to present on it which he did and I personally have devoured all of it to understand it. He raises some very very good points. I shall not defend this any more other than to say I have read, understood and refer to his work.

On the rest I have noting to add.

[bogan]

On the rest I have nothing to add.

Seems to be the motoNZ party line, in more ways than one :facepalm:

[riffer]

Yes, well, in order to be consistent Gareth will now have to kick MrKiwi off MOTO-NZ as he's now commit the mortal sin of posting on Kiwibiker.

The precedent has already been set.

[StoneY]

I doubt that Moto-NZ is OIAable..

No - I think you can because in the first meeting before David joined us we were warned that anything we wrote down was subject to OIA enquiries.


Brent - I'm not sure why you have reacted so strongly. The post I responded to said MotoNZ had done nothing with Charles Lamb work. That is not true. MotoNZ has his work, he was invited to present on it which he did and I personally have devoured all of it to understand it. He raises some very very good points. I shall not defend this any more other than to say I have read, understood and refer to his work.

On the rest I have noting to add.

MOTO NZ simply started to look for the holes in Charleys data and the comments made on the day reflected that no one took on board he was refferencing Bike VS Other vehicles stats ONLY.
You yourself stated the discrepancies (like the 2,500cc zzr learner bike) were non factors -
Out of 50 samples (the fatalities that year) in which 15 were on 250xx bikes, make ONE of those bikes 2,500 cc's and the mean, average, everyting changes David.

unless the data is ACCURATE the analysis delivered from it is not accurate and therefore wirthless.

My strong reaction is because there has now been almost 3 years of contribution to the fund and what do we see from it?
A pretty website with nothing but pretty pictures.
Morgan pontificating on intersections and hi viz bullshit, when the issue is to make drivers aware of us

One thing that constantly made me sick with frustration at those meetings were the number of times we hear about the wonderful saer journeys strategies etc, when alll we need is awreness campaigns to LOOK FOR MOTORCYCLES and safety improvements such as Ken Beers demonstrated from Victoria

I have not seen any money from MOTO NZ spent on anything relevant to date.
TXT DUNG is a fucking abysmal waste of money, cow shit takes out less bikers than those fucking rumble strips do but dare raise that at a meeting?

CORO LOPP - tell us how many reports have been recieved/acted upon? 30k wasted of THESE guys money.

Oh and David, why are YOU allowed to post on Kiwibiker pal?

It always has been about making Nick Smith look like he cared, and its a fuckin waste of money if you guys continue to ignore the PHYSICAL IMPROVEMENTS to our infrastructure the Aussies presented to us

Rant over - feel good now :)

I have told every biker I know to place the rego on hold.
I have been pulled over twice now on held rego's and not ONE word from either cop even after the full wof check
Even they think this system is BS.

Spend my money on something relevant David, or all of you should just fuck off and give the money back to the bikers that paid it

[Smifffy]

That sounds like the makings of a good consulting gig :shifty:


I doubt that Moto-NZ is OIAable. But ACC, on the other hand, will be. Your first OIA to ACC should discover that.

A decent OIA campaign is one that requires just enough use of officials' and resources time to avoid being smacked for time-wasting costs, yet is hard enough work to press them tightly on their 20-day deadline. My nipples have hardened imagining the prospect.

I've been on the receiving end of enough of those over the years to know how the game works. If I'm ever able to retire, these sorts of pursuits could be a great way to fill in the evening hours.

[MSTRS]

On the rest I have noting to add.
Par for the course...



unless the data is ACCURATE the analysis delivered from it is not accurate and therefore wirthless.

Accurate and COMPLETE.
Nick the Prick 'made sure' that anything in the way of stats from the govt or it's political appointees should be treated with complete contempt, due to the rich smell of BULLSHIT!!



Spend my money on something relevant David, or all of you should just fuck off and give the money back to the bikers that paid it
Too right.

[bogan]

Spend my money on something relevant David, or all of you should just fuck off and give the money back to the bikers that paid it

Fucking eh! as far as I can tell, approximately 9mil collected, approx 100k spent (on approximately fuck all as far as I can tell too). Just whose slush fund is the money ending up in?

Is it time for us to own an option yet?

[nosebleed]

So...

how long before David Crawford finds himself off the MOTONZ council for the crime of posting on Kiwibiker?

IIRC his first "crime" was being an employee of the AA. The severity of that crime has diminished with the passage of time.

[avgas]

I hate to say it (as many of your will no my stance via protests)........but why hasn't there been a bikeoi @ McSAC HQ?

[oneofsix]

I hate to say it (as many of your will no my stance via protests)........but why hasn't there been a bikeoi @ McSAC HQ?

And now you will be told by all the naysayers. Some call kiwis apathetic, nah, its just all the under-miners and naysayers, "it wont work because ...". Enough to put anybody off :facepalm:

[bogan]

I hate to say it (as many of your will no my stance via protests)........but why hasn't there been a bikeoi @ McSAC HQ?

Do they have one?

I also found this chairmans message on their site:


One of the questions we’re most often asked – usually by disgruntled levy payers – is “what the hell are you doing with our money?” The $30 motorcycle/ist? Levy amounts to about $3M a year, and our council is responsible for consulting with the motorcycling community and deciding how that money is spent.

What have we spent it on? Not much yet. We are not under pressure to spend it quickly. We’re under pressure to spend it wisely, and that’s what we’re focused on.

I wrote a formal Chairman’s update in December and I will write another formal update in March 2012 – we do one every quarter, and they are posted on the website. Meanwhile, here’s a progress report on some of the projects under way.

In addition to the activities such as the Coromandel Loop project already on the site, this is work underway now

Looks like we'll be getting a proper update this weekend then?

[avgas]

Do they have one?

I also found this chairmans message on their site:

Looks like we'll be getting a proper update this weekend then?
Hmmmm
Do they have to release annual financial reports or some sorts - becuase by my maths they should have a kitty of about 8 million.

Thats enough for a free track day for everyone.
If anyone can get me those Annual reports would be greatly appreciated.

[oneofsix]

Hmmmm
Do they have to release annual financial reports or some sorts - becuase by my maths they should have a kitty of about 8 million.

Thats enough for a free track day for everyone.
If anyone can get me those Annual reports would be greatly appreciated.

Did you deduct running costs? or are those covered by ACC?

[bogan]

Did you deduct running costs? or are those covered by ACC?

covered by ACC, pretty sure there is enough in their kitty to buy me some new gloves... and every other biker too!

[GrayWolf]

Well here's a challenge option to the MOTO-NZ members on KB
you have roughly 8 mill' of funds to spend wisely? What else could be wiser than having research funded purely for NZ bikers stats by an outside party, just like an expert witnesses in a courtroom.. for that amount you could surely employ a world respected authority (or 2) to come up with the truth about bike accident statistics.... THEN MOTO-NZ has some real ammunition to fire at the Govt on the payers (riders) behalf....

[MSTRS]

.... THEN MOTO-NZ has some real ammunition to fire at the Govt on the payers (riders) behalf....

On the rider's behalf? Are you mad? McSAC is not there for the riders...

[StoneY]

I hate to say it (as many of your will no my stance via protests)........but why hasn't there been a bikeoi @ McSAC HQ?

There is no HQ the meetings are held in whatever conference centre they can find for the day.


And now you will be told by all the naysayers. Some call kiwis apathetic, nah, its just all the under-miners and naysayers, "it wont work because ...". Enough to put anybody off :facepalm:

Yep, thats about right ... sadly we shot our load at my 40th party




Looks like we'll be getting a proper update this weekend then?

Don't hold your breath - he is probably in Antarctica trying to sink vikings


Hmmmm
Do they have to release annual financial reports or some sorts - becuase by my maths they should have a kitty of about 8 million.
.

Nope - all the rego's that went on hold reduced the contribution by 30%, which led to TV1 doing an OIA on Nick Smiths emails to Stephen Joyce about 'how do we deal with these bikers placing rego's on hold its affected the predicted income' and Joyces reply 'Police suggest demerit points [on a non safety issue] as a suitable deterent'
The fund was just under 3 mil when I was sacked a year ago so.... EPIC FAIL

Remember the story on Mad Mike and his made up plates? I saw with my own eyes the emails form Nick to Joyce and back, I was livid!
My comments on that factor and the fact I appeared on 1 news stating we motorcyclists believed the vehicle levys were the cause of the surplus not the worker levy's, was mere days before Morgans crybaby letter to Nick was written.
Apparently one member of the council threatened to walk if I was not removed..... betcha it was the Ulysses rep.


covered by ACC, pretty sure there is enough in their kitty to buy me some new gloves... and every other biker too!

When we were a steering group, that was the word, and in the TOR's.
Once we became MOTO NZ suddenly the council was expected be self funding - so dont count on ACC paying all the running costs, I just can't see that happening.


IF ANYONE wants to do an OIA, do it on the success of the TXT DUNG, and seek a financial accounting of the Black routes Project (aka Coro Loop Event)

As far as I am concerned, anything I say will be seen as bitterness and spite (and they have grounds to view my commentary as such) however, my caveat:

If I am bitter it is for these reasons.

I was there for the whole steering committee process so was in from day 1 on the TOR's, and the agreed structure/process/model and predictions.
What we have now is in no way similar to what we designed IMO.
I was initially happy we had GM as chair, and was quite flattered I was sleected onto the council.
As we went on with the 'business' of the council, I became less happy as the TOR's were being twisted to meet a business plan.
This was NOT meant to be a fuckin BUSINESS.

The BEST presentations we saw, were largely ignored.
It started to become a fiasco in my eyes and I was unhappy with the lack of progress, the pontificating, the posturing, and the internal political games being played by ACC officials and the obviously secret communications between internal factions.

Am I bitter?
Yes.

Because I was cut out of the loop by jealous people who resented how many people actually read my posts or listened to my opinions? (as I listened to thiers [open communication with the wider motorcycle community])
NO, that is NOT why I am bitter.

I am bitter for the wasted opportunities this council has missed, and how making the Minister and the Chair happy became the focus of this group as opposed to spending your hard earned money on YOU!
Fact.

Recently, the final nail for me was not even motorcycle related...it was the story of GM stating he would not aid the 'wild Viking' if he started to get into maritime trouble in the Southern Ocean.
Not many of you know this but, I was a deep sea fisherman for a period of my life, trawling near the Auckland Islands (deeply within the southern ocean) for Orange Roughy and Deep Sea Dory (blacks, spikeys and smoothies) and that goes against the code of the sea.

It also showed me Morgan's real attitude, 'fuck anyone who doesn't agree with MY opinion'

To suggest he would let people drown in that cold, nasty place (trust me it is NASTY down there) because they 'didnt have a permit' says he would also leave a dying biker in a ditch because his bike was not registered, IMO.

THAT my friends (and any others reading this thread) was the moment I knew for sure GM is an utter fuckwit and has NO right to spend YOUR money on OUR safety issues.

Peace, and out.

[caseye]

And therein lies the problem, Ladies and Gentleman, they said it was! Butt it ain't.
Mr Kiwi, Dave, come on over anytime and tell us whats going on at MOTO NZ, I'd ask for some thought to be given to actually asking the general population of motorcyclists ( not just those of us here on KB) what this money should be spent on.
I'm picking most of them would say, not F...ing Hi Vis shit, not attempting to straighten roads, not on breakfasts anywhere, but on slip on covers for armco's, and wire rope barriers, things that will actually save lives and generate jobs for other NZ'ers in their implementation and maintenance.

[NONONO]

Soooo...(very tentatively)..are we ready yet for another bit of a ruck with the bastards...yet?
If so, call me Caseye and paint me green for go.

[StoneY]

Soooo...(very tentatively)..are we ready yet for another bit of a ruck with the bastards...yet?
If so, call me Caseye and paint me green for go.

Ok Casseye. Lets do it

[caseye]

LOL,NoNoNo Ya bloody shiet stirrer you, I Love ya, you know that.
Hummmmmmm, now where'd we go last time and what'd we do? Na wouldn't work twice, or would it? If next time we just went!
And then didn't take the foot off their bloody throats.

[NONONO]

Cooool,
We're up boys. Where and when. To work out how?
Shall we start with a pint?

[StoneY]

Well you know..... last time I was determined to do it like civilised, well behaved citizens do.
Suggestions...realistic and achievable

Do not foget that a LOT of people attended BIKOI because it was legally organised, and we still have to keep Joe Public from wanting to lynch us (trust me Truckies are still looked at sideways in Wellington CBD while Bikers get a friendly nod and a 'I remember that day' grin from the Wellingtonians who were here that day....)

Hard act to follow, and do we still have the wherewithall to get the numbers?
Need the facts to rark the masses up first so I suggest:
OIA's to expose the wastage of Coro Loop
Opion polls to get feedback on MOTO's delivery and performance to date
Letters to the new ACC minister from organisations (not individuals) requesting a revamp of the current council structure for lack of delivery

Once these have been done, use the results to get movement and support on the ground, and its BIKOI time!

[Hitcher]

Shall we start with a pint?

The Beer Snobs(TM) amongst us could be up for that.

[Ixion]

OIA requests: they are definitely OIAable. I was told personally by Mr Smith that bikers could submit OIA requests if they wanted to know what was being done with their money.

BRONZ Auckland (well, me, but on BA letterhead) submitted an OIA request in October 2011 asking for a reconciliation of the levy account

We got an answer eventually but the request obviously rattled them . I got a phone call from Phil Wright frantically fishing to find out why we wanted the information, and then the reply had to be personally signed off by the Minister, under a clause usually used for state secrets and such like.

We weren't actually all that interested in the numbers , we just wanted to put them on notice that we were still on their case. Which seems to have worked.

The figures given were :

Levy revenue as at 30 Sep 2011 : $2.554million (total from 1July 2010)
Balaince of account as at ditto. : $2.480million

Expenditure : $74643, on two projects , Green Line and Coro Loop.

In addition the account stands in credit for accrued interest of $95780 as at ditto date.

Note that MotoNZ is technically a Ministerial advisory group, and although the group itself is not OIAable , the Minister is and is accountable for his advisors.

But the levy itself is administered by ACC who are also OIAable.

So for information about what MotoNZ, OIA. The Minister. For information about the levy ,OIA ACC.

I did warn you, Mr Stoney, that it was a poisoned chalice and you would have to dance to the Minister's tune.

Rocking the boat in such cases achieves nothing except getting one thrown overboard. There are only two options : be all meek and submissive, whilst passing information out through secret, secure and deniable channels. Or, wait until something contentious arises and then very publicly upset the boat, preferably after nabbing the only lifejacket.

Incidentally, ACC told NZTA that the Coro loop project was a resounding success.

[GrayWolf]

The Beer Snobs(TM) amongst us could be up for that.

There's a really great bar in Blenheim,,, serves all local brews (boutique batches) and UK beers only....... in Redwood suburb, called the bank!!

[NONONO]

That's a fair old amount of change being held by MOTO-NZ for our own benefit eh?
Do we own the options regarding how it's spent, or do we have to wait for the Hi Viz discount?

[StoneY]

I did warn you, Mr Stoney, that it was a poisoned chalice and you would have to dance to the Minister's tune.

That you did Mr Ixion, and hence I removed any chance of staining the organisations name due to my temperament.


Incidentally, ACC told NZTA that the Coro loop project was a resounding success.



Salutations for the forethought in regards the OIA requests.
Nice work!

[MSTRS]

Shall we start with a pint?

Worked in Munich, 1920s...
(Godwin nearly avoided)

[avgas]

That's a fair old amount of change being held by MOTO-NZ for our own benefit eh?
Do we own the options regarding how it's spent, or do we have to wait for the Hi Viz discount?
With that kind of money I could setup an organisation and give everyone in NZ a hi-viz for free.
About $0.90 unit from China when you buy a million of them

[Bassmatt]

With that kind of money I could setup an organisation and give everyone in NZ a hi-viz for free.
About $0.90 unit from China when you buy a million of them

Dont even go there!

[Katman]

MOTO NZ simply started to look for the holes in Charleys data and the comments made on the day reflected that no one took on board he was refferencing Bike VS Other vehicles stats ONLY.


Addressing "Bike VS Other vehicle stats ONLY" is rather pointless though considering they only make up little more than half the total motorcycle accidents.

[Katman]

Spend my money on something relevant David, or all of you should just fuck off and give the money back to the bikers that paid it

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.

[MSTRS]

Addressing "Bike VS Other vehicle stats ONLY" is rather pointless though considering they only make up little more than half the total motorcycle accidents.

Perhaps Charley was asked to just address that issue? With the secrecy that lot conduct themselves we'll never know.
Besides, 58 or 62% of all m/c crashes (depending on who's figures you use) is significant enough that it should be addressed separately.

[Katman]

Besides, 58 or 62% of all m/c crashes (depending on who's figures you use) is significant enough that it should be addressed separately.

Only as a means of addressing ways to reduce accidents that fall into that category.

When addressing the issue of cost to the country from motorcycle accidents all such accidents need to be taken into account.

Anyone who ignores 40% of the statistics in question risks looking rather stupid.

[MSTRS]

Only as a means of addressing ways to reduce accidents that fall into that category.


Yep. And same for car vs bike. Some causes cross over between the 2 types, but there are enough differences to require separate targetting.
Like I said, we don't know the terms under which Charley made the address...

[Katman]

Yep. And same for car vs bike. Some causes cross over between the 2 types, but there are enough differences to require separate targetting.
Like I said, we don't know the terms under which Charley made the address...

Regardless of the terms under which Charles Lamb addressed the MOTO-NZ meeting, the fact is that his whole investigation only ever addressed multi vehicle accidents.

As far as I'm aware, he has never made public any investigation that he may have carried out of single vehicle motorcycle accidents.

Charles Lamb certainly isn't addressing the bigger picture.

[MSTRS]

Charles Lamb certainly isn't addressing the bigger picture.

And just who is? Apart from you, that is. :shit:

[Katman]

And just who is? Apart from you, that is. :shit:

I keep asking myself the same question. :weep:

[Bassmatt]

Regardless of the terms under which Charles Lamb addressed the MOTO-NZ meeting, the fact is that his whole investigation only ever addressed multi vehicle accidents.

As far as I'm aware, he has never made public any investigation that he may have carried out of single vehicle motorcycle accidents.

Charles Lamb certainly isn't addressing the bigger picture.

Maybe he is of the Katman school of thought- if its only a bike involved its the bikers fault. :shutup:

[GrayWolf]

Regardless of the terms under which Charles Lamb addressed the MOTO-NZ meeting, the fact is that his whole investigation only ever addressed multi vehicle accidents.

As far as I'm aware, he has never made public any investigation that he may have carried out of single vehicle motorcycle accidents.

Charles Lamb certainly isn't addressing the bigger picture.

There MOTO-NZ people, is where our ill gotten funding can be spent usefully.... as I suggested, researched by world accepted figures to give a full and even account of accident statistics.... then the figures will be either to our advantage, or, will reveal the truth that we are a bunch of loony morons who should be legislated off the road.....
We all think we get a raw deal, THAT level of research would show the whole and unadulterated truth.......

[Katman]

I would suggest that an in-depth investigation of single vehicle motorcycle accidents would make for rather sobering reading.

[Berries]

You can't diss the Professor for his report though as he did start off with this statement -

International evidence shows that the largest proportion of motorcycle accidents, involve another vehicle. In Europe, this was shown to be about 85 percent of all motorcycle accidents (ACEM 2008), whilst in the US, research indicates it is approximately 75 percent of all accidents involving motorcycles (Hurt et al 1981).
So for whatever reason he was looking at the bulk of crashes and there is nothing wrong with that. If you just read the conclusion though you wouldn't know that single bike crashes were excluded, and the focus on visibility meant that the biggest determinant in rider safety when it comes to multi vehicle crashes, defensive riding, didn't even get a mention.


I would suggest that an in-depth investigation of single vehicle motorcycle accidents would make for rather sobering reading.
It certainly would. An in-depth analysis of single bike crashes would find that farmers are wankers for having crap fences, roading authorities are cocks for giving us poor roads, the weather can be a bitch at times but primarily that motorbike riders are idiots for riding beyond their capabilities in the seconds leading up to the crash. I am not sure that we should push to have all that made official as it could quite easily be used to bring in draconian measures to improve 'our' safety.

At least the Lamb report didn't blame the rider.

[Katman]

At least the Lamb report didn't blame the rider.

Nobody could accuse the Lamb of being unbiased.

[bogan]

I would suggest that an in-depth investigation of single vehicle motorcycle accidents would make for rather sobering reading.

Why would you need one? Fairly obvious that at minimum the rider failed to anticipate conditions, and likely often caused the problematic conditions to begin with.

An in depth report which states the obvious isn't going to achieve fuck all. Mind you, with that sort of outcome, I guess we can expect motoNZ to get right on it :shifty:

The point that stoney was making, is that motonz are the type of organisation that see what they want to see, and people like Charley are largely ignored as his conclusions (although backed up with stats) do not fit the party line. I think that sort of attitude should be changed, as they say, 'we own the options' right?

[Conquiztador]

Many of the bike accident's happen on weekends. So why not introduce a law stopping bikes from being ridden on weekends? Maaaaan I am brilliant!:Punk:

[avgas]

Many of the bike accident's happen on weekends. So why not introduce a law stopping bikes from being ridden on weekends? Maaaaan I am brilliant!:Punk:
Or we could use a system determining which vehicles can use the road on certain days. We could attach a label on the vehicle so it easily visible.

SSDD

[StoneY]

Addressing "Bike VS Other vehicle stats ONLY" is rather pointless though considering they only make up little more than half the total motorcycle accidents.

WRONG
Gonna come here with numbers pal get em accurate. Less single vehicle motorcycle accidents occur than coillisions, not to mention the bikes that come off avoiding a car/van/truck thats doing something to cause a rider to take sudden action then the rider comes off as a result of such action.

Not every single motorcycle incident is coz of a stupid squid no matter what poisin you try to seed within your own community.

REPORTED accidents involving multiple vehicles, resulting in an injury farsingle bike accidents, in NZTA and Police stats.
I have the stats in a folder here somewhere, can't be arsed digging em out, but single bike accidents are about 39% -45% annually the last 15 years or so, increasing as we got into the mid 00's

You should have a read of Dr Lambs reports. It does cover that factor, then drills inot the bike vs situation as it is OBVIOUS that most single bike accidents are rider fault (most, not ALL)

[StoneY]

Yep. And same for car vs bike. Some causes cross over between the 2 types, but there are enough differences to require separate targetting.
Like I said, we don't know the terms under which Charley made the address...

Yes we fuckin do I posted the presentation and his reasons here on KB, and THAT is why Morgan sacked me, despite the fact that Charley presented that data in May 2010 in the Cshemere club in Chch to Ullysses, HOG, BRONZ and a bunch of press and politicians.
He aslo did the same for BRONZ, WIMA, HOG, Police, and more polliticians in Wellington the same day as he presented to MOTO. It was no fuckin secret.

It was a public address and he presented to MOTO exactly what he presented to everyone else. Just shortened it to meet the 15 minutes Lord Morgan demanded it be limited to.

I will again re-itterate what bugs ME the most.
I do not contest some riders are our worst enemies and that we need to pick up our own end of the rope and start pulling.

BUT the stats are NOT accurate. Big Bikes got the blame for the high price the country pays, when over 75% of the serious crashes happen to 250's with under 25 riders.
Charley BUSTED the aged returning rider myth wide open
It does happen yes, but it is a drop in the bucket by comparison to the carnage happening to new riders.
Further, there are several mistakes made in the sample of 50 fatalaities for 08/09 that skew it totally
7,100 cc (was a 71cc old honda thing)
4,500 cc (was a GS450)
2,500 cc (was a ZZR 250)

These three alone moved the average cc rating in fatalities to 685cc for that year
THAT was the justification for the differential of over 601cc's
Take them out and the average was about 420cc's

THAT is what fucke me off the most - the utter refusal by TPTB to rectify that data and recalculate the stats.

[MSTRS]

[B]... Just shortened it to meet the 15 minutes Lord Morgan demanded it be limited to...

I don't and can't remember everything I see/hear, but my claim in the exchange with KM seemed logical...

OK. So Charley was operating under IMPOSED terms, which would mean reduced content and maybe greater focus on parts of the overall picture. Or he just culled *unnecessary* detail from parts or across the whole. Either way, McSAC got EXACTLY what they wanted...a report that they could ignore if they didn't like it (perhaps on the basis of it's being incomplete).
Further proof that McSAC (or more properly - MoroNZ?) is not there for 'us'.

[Katman]

Why would you need one? Fairly obvious that at minimum the rider failed to anticipate conditions, and likely often caused the problematic conditions to begin with.


Yeah, heaven forbid that motorcyclists should be given irrefutable proof that a huge chunk of their woes stem from their own failings.

I mean, that wouldn't fit very well with the "fucking cager" theory, would it?

[bogan]

Yeah, heaven forbid that motorcyclists should be given irrefutable proof that a huge chunk of their woes stem from their own failings.

I mean, that wouldn't fit very well with the "fucking cager" theory, would it?

They already have been, I don't see why you have such a simplistic view if the situation. Telling/showing bikers we cause a very significant number of our own accidents isn't actually going to fix anything.

Maybe you're like motonz? making a heap of talk and trying to draw focus, but in reality, up to fuck all.

[Katman]

Maybe you're like motonz? making a heap of talk and trying to draw focus, but in reality, up to fuck all.

Yeah, cos MAG NZ really knocked them for six.

[bogan]

Yeah, cos MAG NZ really knocked them for six.

That's what I mean, we didn't distort the stats, we told bikers they needed to improve:


The fault distribution for 2004-2008 showed motorcyclists at fault for 53% of motorcycle accidents,
and other motorists at fault for 39%, with 7% partial fault. Taking into account that motorcycles are
three times more likely to be in an accident, we see that motorcyclists have at fault crashes a lot
more than the average motorist, and get hit significantly more than average as well, so there is
definite room for improvement from both sides.

and did it work? Doesn't sound like it.

Or maybe we need to ignore the rest of the accident causes as you do, stop trying to fix half the problem, so we can continue an ineffectual approach with the other half? That is what you are trying to do in this thread right?

[Katman]

Or maybe we need to ignore the rest of the accident causes as you do, stop trying to fix half the problem, so we can continue an ineffectual approach with the other half? That is what you are trying to do in this thread right?

I'm not ignoring anything.

But I am focusing on the factor that we have the greatest influence over. Ourselves.

[avgas]

I'm not ignoring anything.

But I am focusing on the factor that we have the greatest influence over. Ourselves.
Yeah but unfortunately we can't pay ourselves $20 year instead. You could try putting case to McSAC. But I suspect is all you will get is a free hi-viz and a cookie.

[bogan]

Yeah but unfortunately we can't pay ourselves $20 year instead. You could try putting case to McSAC. But I suspect is all you will get is a free hi-viz and a cookie.

A cookie you say? Better value than we've had so far!

I think some submission are in order come april, either addressing what is in the chairmans update, or the lack of it.


I'm not ignoring anything.

But I am focusing on the factor that we have the greatest influence over. Ourselves.

The thing about people, is they group themselves for the good bits, but it is others who are responsible for the bad parts, how many bikers do you think consider their own riding unsafe? cos lets face it, they're the only ones you are talking to. I don't think we have much greater influence over bikers than we do the rest of the road users, simply more exposure.

[avgas]

A cookie you say? Better value than we've had so far!
They always give cookies at places that take your blood.

[Katman]

The thing about people, is they group themselves for the good bits, but it is others who are responsible for the bad parts, how many bikers do you think consider their own riding unsafe?

I sure there's plenty of motorcyclists who deep down know that a lot of their riding is unsafe.

There's an even greater number of motorcyclists who deep down know that their riding has considerable room for improvement.

It's far easier though to continue blaming everyone/everything else.

[NONONO]

The creed of katman

[caseye]

LOL, like that I do, K when they going to be dished out?
I've a few idiots they could go to, pity is those idiots are riding off into the sunset by the time they've done the damage, most of the time anyway.

[NONONO]

Could get them minted or printed out, sort of like those playing cards in Apocalypse Now eh?
Mr K always misses the point.
Blame and fault rather than cause.
If the investigation of "cause" is clouded by a rush to "fault", as is the case here, then research on "Rider at Fault" accident rates is useless.
If the investigations are inconsistent, that is they are better resourced in some areas than others, this again devalues the research.
If the information (derived from the investigation) is put into the big research machine (BRM) in an inconsistent way then the research is further devalued.
And if the results spewed out by the big research machine (BRM) are open to political bias or the perceived need to raise money (such as maybe, erm, oh, off the top of my head, ACC levies on motorcycle registrations) well, who knows what they may come up with?
And if some people swallow it whole, hook line and Nick Smith, then God bless them.
Kats always smell fishy to me anyway.

[Katman]

Mr K always misses the point.
Blame and fault rather than cause.


Focusing on self improvement has the end result of making blame, fault and cause redundant.

[NONONO]

Oh, that's just weak.

[Katman]

Oh, that's just weak.

How so?

Every accident avoided is one less to be examined.

[NONONO]

Because, again, you imply fault rather than cause. You just don't get it do you? What part of this is difficult?

[Katman]

Because, again, you imply fault rather than cause. You just don't get it do you? What part of this is difficult?

No, I imply that if there was no accident there wouldn't have to be any 'fault' or 'cause'.

[Ocean1]

No, I imply that if there was no accident there wouldn't have to be any 'fault' or 'cause'.

Dude, do me a favour, eh?

Spend an hour researching accident theory. Try terms like investigation methodology, risk analysis, root cause analysis.

Two industries with the best, (and most improved) record in risk management are aviation and medical. See if you can discover why, eh? Try “Swiss cheese model.”



Hint: rider behaviour is not a cause of accidents. It’s a latent condition.

[Katman]

Dude, do me a favour, eh?

Spend an hour researching accident theory. Try terms like investigation methodology, risk analysis, root cause analysis.

Two industries with the best, (and most improved) record in risk management are aviation and medical. See if you can discover why, eh? Try “Swiss cheese model.”



Hint: rider behaviour is not a cause of accidents. It’s a latent condition.

I know all about the 'Swiss cheese model'.

You seem to miss the fact that the motorcyclist is one of those slices of Swiss cheese.

If they do something different the whole scenario changes.

[Katman]

And furthermore, the easiest slice of Swiss cheese to move in order for the holes not to line up is the one that represents yourself.

[Ocean1]

I know all about the 'Swiss cheese model'.

You seem to miss the fact that the motorcyclist is one of those slices of Swiss cheese.

If they do something different the whole scenario changes.

On the contrary. You seem to miss the fact that there are always others.

Change any of them and there's no accident.

Aviation and healthcare didn't make the improvements they did by blaming doctors, nurses and pilots, quite the opposite.

[Katman]

On the contrary. You seem to miss the fact that there are always others.

Change any of them and there's no accident.

Aviation and healthcare didn't make the improvements they did by blaming doctors, nurses and pilots, quite the opposite.

Seriously man, you're the one missing the point.

A single step to the side by the slice of cheese represented by the motorcyclist changes the outcome.

Instead you hope to achieve something by trying to force the other slices of cheese to move.

[Ocean1]

Seriously man, you're the one missing the point.

When I see you addressing some of the multitude of other contributing factors in accidents with something approaching closely reasoned argument I'll pay some attention.

Until then I'll not bother reading what has proven to be a serial ill-focused and negative diatribe.

[Katman]

When I see you addressing some of the multitude of other contributing factors in accidents with something approaching closely reasoned argument I'll pay some attention.

Until then I'll not bother reading what has proven to be a serial ill-focused and negative diatribe.

Yeah, sticking your fingers in your ears and going "LAH, LAH, LAH...." makes loads of sense.

[bogan]

When I see you addressing some of the multitude of other contributing factors in accidents with something approaching closely reasoned argument I'll pay some attention.

Until then I'll not bother reading what has proven to be a serial ill-focused and negative diatribe.

+1, I subscribed to this thread a few days ago when it looked like things were starting to move with regard to motonz, is there still interest for that? or has it been naysayed away?

[StoneY]

YOU MODS are fuckin ruining Kiwibiker
GROW SOME FOR FUCK SAKE

Its MEANT to be a BIKER site, not some kindergarten experiment on how to be nice to thy neighbour

[chanceyy]

YOU MODS are fuckin ruining Kiwibiker
GROW SOME FOR FUCK SAKE

Its MEANT to be a BIKER site

then stop abusing each other and use ya brains and do a reasonable arguement, rather than posturing all over the place .. geeezzzzz

[StoneY]

then stop abusing each other and use ya brains and do a reasonable arguement, rather than posturing all over the place .. geeezzzzz

posturing is a valid professional position matey :)

[GrayWolf]

Yeah, heaven forbid that motorcyclists should be given irrefutable proof that a huge chunk of their woes stem from their own failings.

I mean, that wouldn't fit very well with the "fucking cager" theory, would it?

Kat I'll try this from another angle.. I work in what is called a 'safety critical' environment, where people can and have been killed at work, the figures for the year leading up to march last year are as follows:
In the last 12 months there have been:
1450
reported incidents, resulting in
9 deaths
39 injuries
previous times a minimum of a death a month was the norm purely among staff, the current figure includes deaths of public involved in incidents.

The industry has started to move away from just 'simple blame' towards cause,,, Yes operators have direct responsibility in an incident and are stood down pending investigation and outcome of it. They are disciplined as it is seen 'fit' with regulations as a guideline for the severity of the incident. Also past behavior is taken into account. Education and if needed retraining is now the direction the 'bosses' are heading, bearing in mind a 'severe incident' (which can be one with no actual, but a possible major incident as a result of said 'event') can result in immediate dismissal or permanent removal from position held. There is a protocol and format of investigation.. this reviews from the day before/nights sleep/ workload for the day, any unusual occurrences that may have been a contributing factor of distraction. It doesnt 'absolve' the operator, but gives an insight as to the incidents mechanics.
You may have very valid points to make, but for my industry there used to be a 'fuck up and be punished' attitude, rather than the one they now have,,,, also there has been a drastic REDUCTION in the levels of death among staff over the same period of this change of direction. Punishment/Discipline is still 'meted out' when required, but there is a greater 'database' of understanding the mechanism of incidents now. Having this understanding of contributory factors HAS helped educate staff and directly alter the levels of injury/deaths..... Maybe trying to assimilate that attitude into your approach to 'safety' may just get you far more listeners than the current approach???

[chanceyy]

posturing is a valid professional position matey :)
:killingme :facepalm: only in yours and Katmans heads .. but finally we have someone doing a great reply see below


Kat I'll try this from another angle.. I work in what is called a 'safety critical' environment, where people can and have been killed at work, the figures for the year leading up to march last year are as follows:
In the last 12 months there have been:
1450
reported incidents, resulting in
9 deaths
39 injuries

The industry has started to move away from just 'simple blame' towards cause,,, Yes operators have direct responsibility in an incident and are stood down pending investigation and outcome of it. They are disciplined as it is seen 'fit' with regulations as a guideline for the severity of the incident. Also past behavior is taken into account. Education and if needed retraining is now the direction the 'bosses' are heading, bearing in mind a 'severe incident' (which can be one with no actual, but a possible major incident as a result of said 'event') can result in immediate dismissal or permanent removal from position held. There is a protocol and format of investigation.. this reviews from the day before/nights sleep/ workload for the day, any unusual occurrences that may have been a contributing factor of distraction.
You may have very valid points to make, but for my industry there used to be a 'fuck up and be punished' attitude, rather than the one they now have,,,, also there has been a drastic REDUCTION in the levels of death among staff over the same period of this change of direction. Punishment/Discipline is still 'meted out' when required, but there is a greater 'database' of understanding the mechanism of incidents now. Having this understanding of contributory factors HAS helped educate staff and directly alter the levels of injury/deaths..... Maybe trying to assimilate that attitude into your approach to 'safety' may just get you far more listeners than the current approach???

nice !!!!!

[StoneY]

Kat I'll try this from another angle.. I work in what is called a 'safety critical' environment, where people can and have been killed at work, the figures for the year leading up to march last year are as follows:
In the last 12 months there have been:
1450
reported incidents, resulting in
9 deaths
39 injuries

The industry has started to move away from just 'simple blame' towards cause,,....blah blah blah...I wann ride my bike blah blah... blah blah o your approach to 'safety' may just get you far more listeners than the current approach???

What the FUCK did your post have to do with riding motorcycles dude??????

[StoneY]

Is this a motorcycle riders website or a natonal party cotton wool protectioniast propoganda experiment?

[chanceyy]

What the FUCK did your post have o do with riding motorcycles dude??????

comparsions Stoney .. even your not that dense. Can apply learnings from most situations to motorbikes if your not so one eyed, (or hot under the collar)

[chanceyy]

Is this a motorcycle riders website or a natonal party cotton wool protectioniast propoganda experiment?

Do you need to read the site rules (that you agreed too on registering) if you have complaint re me or my modding take it to someone who cares .. I actually abide by the rules that I agreed to on registering :)

(MT or Spank is who you need to send your complaints too - but they won't care)

[StoneY]

comparsions Stoney .. even your not that dense. Can apply learnings from most situations to motorbikes if your not so one eyed, (or hot under the collar)

Collar?
You mean Pissed? Stoned? Say it stop eluding to shit.....
This website lost its balls, lost ist way, lots its direction


I blame my temper it gets the best of me

[StoneY]

Do you need to read the site rules (that you agreed too on registering) if you have complaint re me or my modding take it to someone who cares .. I actually abide by the rules that I agreed to on registering :)

(MT or Spank is who you need to send your complaints too - but they won't care)

OMG there are RULES? How can this be abiker website whenther are RULES!

Fuckin kindergarten

[chanceyy]

Collar?
You mean Pissed? Stoned? Say it stop eluding to shit.....
This website lost its balls, lost ist way, lots its direction



would you like me to assist in your leaving ?? :bleh:

.. I can do that :msn-wink:

after all since its lost its direction, way and of course balls

you will not want to stay as a KB member then :) :shutup::facepalm:

[chanceyy]

OMG there are RULES? How can this be abiker website whenther are RULES!

Fuckin kindergarten

yup bit like the rest of the nanny state but there ya go .. now you big tough 1% have you graduadated from the sandpit yet ??

[GrayWolf]

What the FUCK did your post have to do with riding motorcycles dude??????

Stoney, how long is it going to take for you to THINK before you 'speak'?? Even in this medium, you 'gob off' without thinking,,, no wonder you were so popular in official meetings... Blaming your temper is no excuse, if you react this way on the road, I am amazed you are still above ground... if you dont react that way when riding? apply the same thinking when responding to what others have to say....

[StoneY]

yup bit like the rest of the nanny state but there ya go .. now you big tough 1% have you graduadated from the sandpit yet ??

Nope and far from 1% old friend...more like 15% (I pay my taxes) :laugh:

Me and Katman - MMA cage rules - sell tickets for Starship - hold it in Bulls (midway point)
Bring it on!

[StoneY]

would you like me to assist in your leaving ?? :bleh:

.. I can do that :msn-wink:

after all since its lost its direction, way and of course balls

you will not want to stay as a KB member then :) :shutup::facepalm:

Tell ya what Chanceyy

Show me the door.
This place is losing it's validy and its appeal - I used to tell MOTO they needed to have a presence here beacuse it has the most motorcyclists in NZ reading its pages.
But I guess that wasted effort was just as useless as the moderation of this website.

Sayonara

[oneofsix]

Kat I'll try this from another angle..

And that will be where he stopped reading... Having seen his bullshit over the last and the number of people that have tried to tell him believe me his post about fingers in the ears was referring to himself.

Other than that your post was good and gives a good rough outline as to what Moto should be about, the same sort of idea used in aviation and medicine referred to earlier. The only problem I see is that as a country, and perhaps it is the time we live in, we have a blame and punish attitude especially if it involves $$.

Yes motorcyclist sometimes ride like fukwits and drivers drive like fukwits. You can improve that but as the popular image of a motorcyclist is someone craving through the traffic that isn't easy, just view most TV programmes when they include bikes and see how they are shown, or comment to a workmate the drives a cage that you as a bike rider prefer to avoid the traffic where the standard response will be alone the lines of "but traffic doesn't delay a bike" like they expect you to split lanes at 100k in 30k traffic :shit:

However if we work on the dangerous road furniture, road surfaces etc, we give the rider a better survival chance. How many times has a minor crash not been avoided or occurred due to lack of trust in the road surface? Or injuries made worse for the sake of a skirt on a barrier?

This isn't an all or nothing. There are and always will be rider improvement programmes, even if it is just you telling your mate a better way. But Moto is meant to be about the other factors, and fatting 3M's coffers with hi-viz aint it, FFS the SMDSYs can't even see trucks or other cars so shove our hi-viz where the sun don't shine, police the minor couldn't give a fuk infractions like indication, turning into the correct lane etc and I reckon suddenly all SMDSYs, be it bike, car, truck or train will drop because they will now be thinking drive and not coffee, date, or whatever. Note I left out speed because the person doing 110k on a near empty highway is probably concentrating more on their driving than the person tooting along, just look at the posts on here where it is the tootler that pulled the sudden lane change or u-turn or whatever caused the excitment, not the speeder.

[Katman]

The industry has started to move away from just 'simple blame' towards cause,,,

Considering the fact that in a large percentage of motorcycle accidents the motorcyclist is the 'cause', don't you think it would be sensible to address that issue?

[MSTRS]

No, I imply that if there was no accident there wouldn't have to be any 'fault' or 'cause'.
There will always be 'accidents'. And there will always be a cause. But not usually fault.
Crashes, on the other hand, will always be as a result of fault. Which in this case equals cause.


... there used to be a 'fuck up and be punished' attitude, rather than the one they now have...

In motoring terms there still is.
Narrow it down to bikes-only...and all of us are punished for anyone's fuck-ups. I resent that.
Katman is right...in that if we crashed less, our public profile would rise and our costs would go down.
He is also right in saying that only the rider can control what they do when riding, and only the rider can mitigate what others do that endanger him/her.
Road craft won't always avoid accidents, but it will reduce crashes. Isn't that what we all want?

[GrayWolf]

Quote originally Posted by Oneofsix : And that will be where he stopped reading... Having seen his bullshit over the last and the number of people that have tried to tell him believe me his post about fingers in the ears was referring to himself.

Quote Originally Posted by GrayWolf : The industry has started to move away from just 'simple blame' towards cause,

,
Considering the fact that in a large percentage of motorcycle accidents the motorcyclist is the 'cause', don't you think it would be sensible to address that issue? I stick my fingers in my ears, go ting a ling a loo

there fixed it for ya!!!

[GrayWolf]

There will always be 'accidents'. And there will always be a cause. But not usually fault.
Crashes, on the other hand, will always be as a result of fault. Which in this case equals cause.



In motoring terms there still is.
Narrow it down to bikes-only...and all of us are punished for anyone's fuck-ups. I resent that.
Katman is right...in that if we crashed less, our public profile would rise and our costs would go down.
He is also right in saying that only the rider can control what they do when riding, and only the rider can mitigate what others do that endanger him/her.
Road craft won't always avoid accidents, but it will reduce crashes. Isn't that what we all want?

I completely agree MSTRS, if you read my posts on accidents and 'road use' I think you'll see I try to advocate roadcraft... the point being made is not the that punishment is meted out for an offence, but rather the cause needs to be understood. Most legislation is formed by either a knee jerk reaction (dangerous dogs act is a classic) by Govt, or a Polititian out to make their name ( like S bradford). I know there has been research done to show that headlights are not the panacea they were supposed to be, AND, that headlights DO affect distance judgement, yet Govts still put laws in place... hi Vis will be the same panacea, we all know this. In fact serious accident causes are NOT punished effectively, Look at Denmark/Swededn etc for DD offences. Death caused by reckless, dangerous or substance use driving? Should be a mandatory manslaughter charge.
But, along side that IS the need to understand the mechanics and cause of any incident... Drunk Driving was seen as Socialy acceptable for years here, so often hear tales of 'farmer Joe' who drives/drove home smashed out of his skull... Binge drinking is a culture for our young.... So as well as a penalty for the miscreant? We also need to (and are starting to) target attitude in general.... That is what 'cause investigation' would bring about, the behaviours and attitudes that need shifting. A good example again is from work, the whole place (mainly open air) is non smoking, there is a smoking area set aside though. However smokers, as smokers do, light up on platforms and object quite strongly when told that they are in a non smoking area... it's outside, I need a ciggy, i'll miss my service if i go over there, it's too crowded to push a way through. So they justify their actions, BUT all those people around them? Say nothing. Therfore condoning the 'offence'. If you go to a few European countries I KNOW that with certainty the crowd around them would most vocally tell them to 'put it out'....

[Katman]

We also need to (and are starting to) target attitude in general.... That is what 'cause investigation' would bring about, the behaviours and attitudes that need shifting.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Me and Katman - MMA cage rules - sell tickets for Starship - hold it in Bulls (midway point)
Bring it on!

I'll buy a ringside seat for that.

[avgas]

Considering the fact that in a large percentage of motorcycle accidents the motorcyclist is the 'cause', don't you think it would be sensible to address that issue?
LTSA and ACC have.
If they tax them off the road, there will be less motorcyclists and thus less motorcycle accidents.
Banning motorcycles from the roads will remove 99.9% of motorcycle accidents from the roads.

While improved riding skills MAY decrease these stats, it is not fact.
What I have stated is.

We have to stop treating the NZ govt like some caring parent ("PLEASE MUMMY! I promise not to crash anymore - please let me keep riding") to a stance where we have abusive parents who are not giving us any rights.

They have screwed us more than we have screwed ourselves. Even if we were the pinacle of society, motorcyclists would have still recieved the shit we have, for two simple reasons; we are small and we are easy.

[Katman]

We have to stop treating the NZ govt like some caring parent ("PLEASE MUMMY! I promise not to crash anymore - please let me keept riding") to a stance where we have abusive parents who are not giving us any rights.


That's like saying "I know this avoidable crash is going to hurt me but I'm going to have it anyway - just to teach you a lesson".

[avgas]

That's like saying "I know this crash is going to hurt me but I'm going to have it anyway just to teach you a lesson".
The alternative is finding out if the straight jacket fits and doing exactly what they tell us to do. If that is the case for all future development - I expect all bikes to become museum pieces in my lifetime.

Fact of the matter is motorbikes are not safe, just like many things that have already been banned.
First they tax it down, then they ban it off.
For no other reason other than it COULD be bad for you. Regardless of who you are, and what you do.

This includes banning riders who have never crashed in their lives. Banning the best riders in the country. A BAN.
Party Pills, Hooch, Massive BullBars, Sky Rockets................................. were harmless to 90% of society, and they got banned for far less that what motorbikes do.
Only a fool would think that the govt will only target "Bad Riders". The Govt carpet bombs a problems.

[Katman]

Only a fool would think that the govt will only target "Bad Riders". The Govt carpet bombs a problems.

I've been saying similar for a loooong time.

[Conquiztador]

This includes banning riders who have never crashed in their lives. Banning the best riders in the country. A BAN.
Party Pills, Hooch, Massive BullBars, Sky Rockets................................. were harmless to 90% of society, and they got banned for far less that what motorbikes do.
Only a fool would think that the govt will only target "Bad Riders". The Govt carpet bombs a problems.

So we then have two options:
1. Find a way to become carpet bomb proof
2. Stop carpet bombing

Hmmm... How about a "gold card" biker? Someone who had proved to the gummint that he/she was a safe rider, someone that could be trusted to 100%... (OK, so the license is supposed to do that. But clearly does not.)

[caseye]

I'll bite Con. If the issuing of such a card was made to be able to stand up to exquisite scrutiny it may well have some merit. I can however foresee some problems.
For instance, as per all previous govt's, this one simply wants to remove motorcycles from "their" roads.A stated UN aim for all countries from way back!
In order for that to happen they see no problem with developing a campaign that smears all bikers as mad speed crazed freaks who cost the ordinary drivers , um other road users, many thousands of dollars in ACC when they or their other accident participants are rehabilitated.
I'm all for a recognised licencing structure that says, this person is qualified to ride/drive at an advance level.
Problem, who else would be comfortable with it? The Govt?, certainly not.
While it will take longer, KM's method of each and every motorcyclist taking RESPONSIBILITY for their own actions and making conscious decisions NOT TO BE total dickheads when riding on public roads would quite simply result in less accidents, less money required to rehab anyone and overall improve "our chances" of arriving home in one piece each and every day.
Did I say, don't go hard? did I say don't ride to conditions? has KM? . No, all the message is , is look out for your own skin and don't do dumb shit, how hard is it to understand?
I can see it'll work, yes it'll take time, but it would be irrefutable proof that motorcyclists are willing to bring about change themselves and not wait for fools who ride, to cause them to loose whatever privilage they still have.
Many here have in the last couple of years come to see that if given a go it would work.
Seems that this thread might still get somewhere, come on you lot, ideas kick em around try something, anything is better than waiting till we have our bikes forcibly removed from us because a few rode like cocks.

[Conquiztador]

Was I serious re the "Biker Gold Card"(BGC) ? Not really. I realise the huge problems to make it work. And there would have to be only one who had a BGC and got drunk and crashed, and the card would mean nothing.

But perhaps... If the BGC was given out to the ones who:
1. Have had NO accidents that was even in a small part his/her fault.
2. Would yearly get rider training.
3. Had no speeding or other fines inside a set period
4. Had 0 demerit points.

As soon as you fucked up you loose the card. And it becomes even harder to get it.

Only ones with BGC would be allowed to ride bigger bikes, use main highways, have lower rego etc.

Am I for this? No. But perhaps worth a thought if we run out of road...

[GrayWolf]

For all the anti bike legislation and fervour, there remains some irrefutable facts.....

As more cars hit the road, congestion increases, which will lead to alternatives being required, whether public transport or some form of motorised 2 wheels.

More importantly, ALL vehicles will be restricted in the not too distant future, the oil resources are finite, and I believe quotes of 20-30yrs before the current supplies are done at the current rate of consumption, not allowing for the above mentioned increases.

those two factors will lead all vehicle manufacturers to head to fuel efficency over performance. Costs for production will increase as sales drop for cars... WE may just see the motorcycle become the 'alternative' it was in the 1950/1960's as a main form of transport.

i may not be alive to see this, but many here will be my age now, when the brutal reality could strike home worldwide.

[chasio]

I assume this guy (http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/6723747/Posties-air-mail-delivery-comes-crashing-down) would lose his Gold Card, as well as his job?

[bogan]

More government approved stats reports from our saviours at motonz <_<

Their interwebs won't let me submit my response, so I shall just leave it here.


Just a question, why do the reports focus so heavily on adjusted risk per km travelled, when ACC is paid per vehicle, not per km?

And getting back to your response from the last debate. In one paragraph you say ACC adjusting levies for different vehicle type to reflect the risk is fine, then the next you say adjusting levies for rider gear or accident history goes against the no fault policy. Both of them are simply risk 'assessed' levy pricing. Your current attitude of towing the governments 'bill the bikers' line, will eventually lead to that sort of insurance scheme, is that what you want? (or the more important question you should ask, is that what bikers want!)

Finally, the site banner still reads 'our money, our priorities' Is that just hot air? or are you eventually going to actually do something to help bikers out? The money I've paid so far could have bought me a bloody nice pair of gloves, much more of a priority for me than the nothing you guys have delivered.
At the very least, could you sort out multiple vehicle ownership, if you insist on helping the government charge me for my 'true' risk, can you at least make sure I only pay once, paying three times is a bit tedious.

[Kickaha]

ALL vehicles will be restricted in the not too distant future, the oil resources are finite, and I believe quotes of 20-30yrs before the current supplies are done at the current rate of consumption, not allowing for the above mentioned increases. :yawn: we were hearing that 20-30 years ago

[Berries]

Finally, the site banner still reads 'our money, our priorities' Is that just hot air? or are you eventually going to actually do something to help bikers out?
Got the flyer with my rego reminder last week. I thought it should read "Your money, our priorities." Would add a few more critical comments but I chucked it straight out.

[bogan]

Got the flyer with my rego reminder last week. I thought it should read "Your money, our priorities." Would add a few more critical comments but I chucked it straight out.

Pfft, even thats a bit generous, there doesn't seem to be any priorities. "Your money, ours now!" is a better slogan I think.

At least the debate section is back up now.

[jellywrestler]

I made two formal submissions to MOTONZ some months ago
having heard nout I emailed them a couple of weeks ago to be told that they had passed on my concerns to the NZTA and had what they did with them

So here's me took the time to formally approach them and now they say they just passed them on, no clues to whether they bothered to add comment to them, suggestions etc etc and no following up how they were received.
Forgive me if I find this process a complete and utter fucking farce

[bogan]

I made two formal submissions to MOTONZ some months ago
having heard nout I emailed them a couple of weeks ago to be told that they had passed on my concerns to the NZTA and had what they did with them

So here's me took the time to formally approach them and now they say they just passed them on, no clues to whether they bothered to add comment to them, suggestions etc etc and no following up how they were received.
Forgive me if I find this process a complete and utter fucking farce

Thats the gist of what I'm getting too, they are happy to flick an email on to somebody else, but lets face, we could, and were doing that already. As an appointed government organisation, they should at the very least, be facilitating greater communication with TPTB, however it all seems to be one way, TPTB tell Gareth what to publish, and to push out the same 'billthebikers' propaganda, and he is doing just that.

I've got my reminder notice for the bros on my bench, and TBH, am wondering if I'll bother to pay it. Large levy increases piss me off, but a $30 MSL which seems at best is being used for nothing, and some would even say it is just being used to fuel anti motorcycle propaganda. Well, that makes me want to put it on hold and go without.

[riffer]

I made two formal submissions to MOTONZ some months ago
having heard nout I emailed them a couple of weeks ago to be told that they had passed on my concerns to the NZTA and had what they did with them

So here's me took the time to formally approach them and now they say they just passed them on, no clues to whether they bothered to add comment to them, suggestions etc etc and no following up how they were received.
Forgive me if I find this process a complete and utter fucking farce

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to jellywrestler again.

Yeah, it's a joke ain't it Spyda? If it's any consolation you're not being treated any differently to anyone else. Personally I believe MOTONZ were set up with good and valid terms of reference, but these have been diluted, distorted and over-ridden by Ministerial intervention to the point where they've become disfunctional. And a huge part of the problem is the communication with the people who've given them the money.

It's a disgrace.

[riffer]

I've got my reminder notice for the bros on my bench, and TBH, am wondering if I'll bother to pay it. Large levy increases piss me off, but a $30 MSL which seems at best is being used for nothing, and some would even say it is just being used to fuel anti motorcycle propaganda. Well, that makes me want to put it on hold and go without.

Then you won't be happy about about this:

http://www.transport.govt.nz/ourwork/Land/VehicleLicensingReform/

Pay big attention to this people. They're looking at the whole Licensing thing. And that may include REMOVING the ability to put a bike on hold.

[bogan]

Then you won't be happy about about this:

http://www.transport.govt.nz/ourwork/Land/VehicleLicensingReform/

Pay big attention to this people. They're looking at the whole Licensing thing. And that may include REMOVING the ability to put a bike on hold.

Yeh that doesn't sound good at all :no:

I posted a thread on an international site yesterday to compare costs, those guys in US pay less than half what we do, and they are all about fault/blame, what gives? I guess it is partially the paying past and future all at once... which I'm not sure why that is assinged to each of the vehicle classes, I'm pretty sure my risk of having an accident last year hasn't gone up since not having an accident last year.

[red mermaid]

I read the 1st post of this thread and saw that Phil Wright was the Secretariat.

If this is the Phil Wright who was head of the Traffic Safety Service (Traffic Cops) of the MoT in the lead up to the takeover by Police, then I expect absolutely nothing useful will ever come from this organisation except lots of talk, meetings, study tours and general flim flam.

[Scuba_Steve]

I read the 1st post of this thread and saw that Phil Wright was the Secretariat.

If this is the Phil Wright who was head of the Traffic Safety Service (Traffic Cops) of the MoT in the lead up to the takeover by Police, then I expect absolutely nothing useful will ever come from this organisation except lots of talk, meetings, study tours and general flim flam.

at which stage our costs will go up as they'll need to pay for all these meetings, talks, tours, & flim flam as well as the overpriced accommodation, catering & entertainment that comes with them.

[oneofsix]

I read the 1st post of this thread and saw that Phil Wright was the Secretariat.

If this is the Phil Wright who was head of the Traffic Safety Service (Traffic Cops) of the MoT in the lead up to the takeover by Police, then I expect absolutely nothing useful will ever come from this organisation except lots of talk, meetings, study tours and general flim flam.

If it is who you suspect then we can expect another bad move like the one you mention. Sounds like the typical self centred egotist that normally weedal their way into these types of roles.

[Berries]

At least the debate section is back up now.
I'm glad about that. Just picked up some sweet Ralph Lauren sunnies.

If i can get some Chanel for the ball and chain I might get my $30 back. That's Mothers Day sorted. Who said they were a useless ripoff?

[Hitcher]

I read Gareth Morgan's latest epistle. Apparently bikers can't ride for shit, are accidents waiting to happen, are a massive cost on the rest of the taxpaying public and have no idea what's good for them. But don't worry, gentle readers. Gareth is an economist and is coming to our rescue because he's read the ACC's statistics and is the only person who can understand them.

There's nothing that a law making mandatory the wearing of fluoro vests can't cure.

I'm really pleased that we have such insightful leaders amongst us.

[Katman]

I read Gareth Morgan's latest epistle. Apparently bikers can't ride for shit, are accidents waiting to happen, are a massive cost on the rest of the taxpaying public and have no idea what's good for them.

Bitter pill to swallow, ay Brett?

[GrayWolf]

I read Gareth Morgan's latest epistle. Apparently bikers can't ride for shit, are accidents waiting to happen, are a massive cost on the rest of the taxpaying public and have no idea what's good for them. But don't worry, gentle readers. Gareth is an economist and is coming to our rescue because he's read the ACC's statistics and is the only person who can understand them.

There's nothing that a law making mandatory the wearing of fluoro vests can't cure.

I'm really pleased that we have such insightful leaders amongst us.

The sad reality is, no matter WHAT we say, he is the one who will be listened to, by the 'grey men'.... This sadly is where we are going to pay the price for not having people like the '60 something school teacher' in the meetings after the bikoi, rather than the ones who were still 'rabble rousing' in attitude. What amazes me is this guy really believes he is completely right,,, and sadly when you read so many of the posts in kb, boy do we GIVE him the bullets to fire by the box load. What is more bitter is we are being decimated by so called 'friendly fire' :no::no: :bash::angry:

[Crasherfromwayback]

I read Gareth Morgan's latest epistle. Apparently bikers can't ride for shit,.

Bit rich coming from him!

[bogan]

Looks like their sit is being used to discuss the finer points of rego dodging... wonder if that will get a rise out of them :lol: cos nothing else seems to :facepalm:

[Conquiztador]

So soon not having a hig vis vest on will make us 1%'s...

[rustic101]

I read the 1st post of this thread and saw that Phil Wright was the Secretariat.

If this is the Phil Wright who was head of the Traffic Safety Service (Traffic Cops) of the MoT in the lead up to the takeover by Police, then I expect absolutely nothing useful will ever come from this organisation except lots of talk, meetings, study tours and general flim flam.

I can confirm he is that very (insert description here) person.

I have had dialogue with PW and GM over various issues I have with MOTONZ. I stopped communicating as I was not wasting my time or energy with drop kicks and people who pretend to GAF.

They continually claim they are doing work no other Agency is doing, and all for us. Well I keep telling them bullshit.

Take the SMS service they offer 'DUNG' I think it is? Well NZTA already provide a free (from mobiles too) 0800 (http://www.nzta.govt.nz/about/media/releases/716/news.html) number for that. Call is answered straight away by NZTA, Traffic Operations Centre (TOC), in Auck or Welly, god only knows when a dung text is answered. Matter of fact if the road conditions are that dangerous then Police also provide an immediate service or can facilitate one through a council by callers using *555 or 111. So they are doing work no other agency is doing or providing well fuck me really!!!

There are so many more examples I could offer but the question is wtf are they doing with all that money?????

[MSTRS]

... but the question is wtf are they doing with all that money?????

Playing te pokies?

[Crasherfromwayback]

I read the 1st post of this thread and saw that Phil Wright was the Secretariat.

If this is the Phil Wright who was head of the Traffic Safety Service (Traffic Cops) of the MoT in the lead up to the takeover by Police, then I expect absolutely nothing useful will ever come from this organisation except lots of talk, meetings, study tours and general flim flam.

Yeah. Phil Wright is a total fucking sifter.

[avgas]

Looks like their sit is being used to discuss the finer points of rego dodging... wonder if that will get a rise out of them :lol: cos nothing else seems to :facepalm:
The 87' crash was the last thing that got a rise out of Morgan.

[Berries]

I have never bothered registering to make comments on their website for a variety of reasons even though some of the stuff that is posted is just plain wrong like KB and needs a response. And now I find that I cannot read all the comments without logging on. FFS. They take my $30 a year for, well, fuck all of any substance as far as I can see which was always going to be the case, and now I can only read the spam posts about sunglasses, designer jackets and beats by dre outlet.

Best money I have ever spent :tugger:

[bogan]

Looks like he's still just mindless regurgitating the ACC numbers. Didn't even notice/address why acc claimant figures were almost 4x as many as NZTA recorded injuries.


I have never bothered registering to make comments on their website for a variety of reasons even though some of the stuff that is posted is just plain wrong like KB and needs a response. And now I find that I cannot read all the comments without logging on. FFS. They take my $30 a year for, well, fuck all of any substance as far as I can see which was always going to be the case, and now I can only read the spam posts about sunglasses, designer jackets and beats by dre outlet.

Best money I have ever spent :tugger:

You don't need to register or login, just leave a valid email each time you post, it still works ok for me.

[oldrider]

Saw Morgan on TV1 close up last night (with Sir Bob Jones) and confirmed my view that he (Morgan) will do nothing useful for motorcycling!

[MSTRS]

Saw Morgan on TV1 close up last night (with Sir Bob Jones) and confirmed my view that he (Morgan) will do nothing useful for motorcycling!

Confirmed my view that he is an arrogant cock. One that happens to ride a bike (sometimes).
Old Sir Bob might be a bit arrogant too, but I'm sure he drives a car, and he doesn't spout on that he knows best for other car drivers...

[Crasherfromwayback]

Old Sir Bob might be a bit arrogant too, but I'm sure he drives a car, and he doesn't spout on that he knows best for other car drivers...

I like Sir Bob. Met him a few times now. He's as funny as fuck.

[oneofsix]

Old Sir Bob might be a bit arrogant too, but I'm sure he drives a car, and he doesn't spout on that he knows best for other car drivers...

Oh yes Sir Bob drives. They probably still have unserved tickets for his car rego'd in his dogs name. :lol:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Oh yes Sir Bob drives.

Has a fine taste in automobiles too. Last time I saw him, he was driving an XJR exactly the same as mine bar the colour.

[bogan]

Saw Morgan on TV1 close up last night (with Sir Bob Jones) and confirmed my view that he (Morgan) will do nothing useful for motorcycling!

I'm beginning to think the organisation (or lack thereof) is being wound up. Its over a month since they were due for an update, and over a week since I e-mailed them about it. Did anybody ever get around to do an OIA request on their financials? Might be a good time before it all gets kick back into somebodys election campaign or some shit.

[Bald Eagle]

I think it's already dissappeared into ACC general slush fund account, minus tea and muffins

Sent from my MB525 using Tapatalk 2

[swbarnett]

I'm beginning to think the organisation (or lack thereof) is being wound up.
With any luck that would mean the "safety levy" will be taken off. Tui anyone?

[bogan]

I did finally get a reply to my inquiry. I'll post it up, just so somebody is keeping bikers in the loop.


Thank you for your email, and my apologies for the delay in responding to you.

You are quite right there is some delay in getting the Business Plan on the website and it may take a few more weeks yet so please bear with us.

While over the last year there has been some progress we are looking forward to a year where we will be able to make some significant progress. Having said that we do appreciate having people like yourself keeping and eye on things.

[Berries]

I guess the debate section got a bit too much for them and the home page doesn't get updated, but I see there has been an update of sorts here - http://motonz.org.nz/about-moto-nz/council-update/.

A bit of popcorn for the long weekend.


:corn:

[bogan]

How did you hear about the update?

I am a little confused as to why the coromandal loop project findings are being applied to an urban project, isn't the loop a much different style rural road?

The rest isn't much better, just waffle about investigations and shit they plan to do, but will no doubt fall by the wayside before any significant progress is made. It almost makes you want to lodge an effluent spill report for all the bullshit that site dribbles :laugh:

[Berries]

How did you hear about the update?
Oh, for being funded by my money they undertook to let me know when there are updates.



Not.

[James Deuce]

You mean a Quango is wasting tax-payer money? Nooooo, that couldn't possibly happen.

[Scuba_Steve]

I guess the debate section got a bit too much for them and the home page doesn't get updated, but I see there has been an update of sorts here - http://motonz.org.nz/about-moto-nz/council-update/.

A bit of popcorn for the long weekend.


:corn:

I see they're still pushing forth with Hi-Vis plans (of a different name)

"SAFER VEHICLES
The Visibility Project <- aka Hi-vis
In April we contracted TRL Ltd. to review current literature about motorcycle visibility [read: hi-vis], and prepare a report that will allow us to identify specific visibility projects with demonstrated results in other countries. [read: hi-vis & how we've manipulated stats to show "it works"]

We’re currently reviewing their first draft. Once the report is finalised you’ll have an opportunity to read it and give us your opinion about the recommendations."

[Berries]

I see they're still pushing forth with Hi-Vis plans (of a different name)

In April we contracted TRL Ltd. to review current literature about motorcycle visibility [read: hi-vis]
To be fair it does say motorcycle visibility not motorcyclist visibility, (I am sure Mr Kiwi will be able to confirm), but I do wonder about priorities. Let's assume for the sake of argument that 1/3 of crashes are rider only, 1/3 are multi vehicle where the rider is at fault and 1/3 are multi vehicle where the other vehicle is at fault.

Let's further assume that in the majority of cases the rider was traveling towards the vehicle that nailed them. With their headlight hardwired on due to an early successful law change. I just don't believe that in those cases the clothing colour will make the slightest bit of difference. While the small frontal area of a motorbike and rider is an obvious factor that might contribute to crashes like this it does not explain why drivers of all types of vehicles pull out in to the path of bigger vehicles including cars, trucks and trains.

Trying to influence the behaviour of the second party in a minority of crash types seems like a big arse waste of my money. Every single rider in NZ could by now have been given a decent book/manual on defensive riding with the money that has been taken from us. Maybe most won't read it, but just possibly someone will and then they don't beome the statistic.

On a similar subject I see ACC have pulled out of funding a SMIDSY campaign yet MotoNZ are going to plough ahead anyway. Lovely.

[bogan]

On a similar subject I see ACC have pulled out of funding a SMIDSY campaign yet MotoNZ are going to plough ahead anyway. Lovely.

Idea for someone like Jono and Ben at Ten? Put on full leathers and just punch people in the face as they get out of their cars... not subtle, but I bet it'd be cheap publicity.

[MrKiwi]

I see they're still pushing forth with Hi-Vis plans (of a different name)

"SAFER VEHICLES
The Visibility Project <- aka Hi-vis
In April we contracted TRL Ltd. to review current literature about motorcycle visibility [read: hi-vis] (no] , and prepare a report that will allow us to identify specific visibility projects with demonstrated results in other countries. [read: hi-vis & how we've manipulated stats to show "it works"] [no]

We’re currently reviewing their first draft. Once the report is finalised you’ll have an opportunity to read it and give us your opinion about the recommendations."


Wrong both times - we are looking at initiatives that may help raise the conspicuity of the bike and it's rider, mostly the bike.

Berries - No we are not carrying on with the SMIDSY campaign without the ACC component. ACC approached the Council first on this initiative but did not adequately do their return on investment analysis so the Council is disinclined to proceed with a motorcycle component until ACC can get their car part organised. It's a watching brief from us.

[Scuba_Steve]

Wrong both times - we are looking at initiative that may help raise the conspicuity of the bike and it's rider, mostly the bike.


Well I hope I'm wrong, but I've seen the "solutions" of too many Govt depts to be putting my bet on anything else at this stage

[MrKiwi]

Well I hope I'm wrong, but I've seen the "solutions" of too many Govt depts to be putting my bet on anything else at this stage

Personally I'm pretty adamant that while hi viz has it's place it is not the panacea some make it out to be. Hi viz does not work that well at night unless it is reflective and even then reflective material requires another light source for it to work. Personally I think lighting options provide a wider range of benefits, especially at T intersections, and also lighting works both day and night.

I've seen government's in Europe mandate hi viz. I'm not sure on what basis, the research is pretty varied on its usefulness.