Democracy, freedom and the right to vote!

[oldrider]

Democracy, freedom and the right to vote!

Tomorrow I shall exercise the privilege of my right to vote.

The current election campaign has sickened me and tempted me to vote negatively but after watching some of the news items about the trouble some other nationalities are enduring just to get that privilege, I have been thinking!

The important political things that I would like to see adopted by this country are not being offered by any one party so I will have split my voting options!

Most commentators would judge my choices as "wasted votes" but I want to express "my" vote positively so tomorrow waste them I will.

Monetary reform (Social Credit) is paramount as far as I am concerned and there is only one party offering to do this and they have a candidate standing in my electorate, so I will vote for their candidate! http://www.democrats.org.nz/

The overall policies that most appeal to my sense of political direction and freedom, the party does not have a candidate in my electorate so I will give them my "party vote". http://www.libertarianz.org.nz/

At least I will have exercised my privilege and cast my vote positively for the things that I think are important rather than casting a negative vote for the two major parties to cancel one in preference to the other as the media suggest that we do!

I shall also vote for change from MMP to STV.

Yes! Tomorrow I shall "waste my votes" the way I believe if they were realised there would be improvements in the way New Zealand operates!

It won't make an iota of difference to the outcome of the (lucky dip) election but it will make a difference to how I feel about myself!

Good luck to everyone else ...... vote positively, the way that "you" want to ... good luck and have a nice day! :2thumbsup

[Motu]

There are a couple of standards I work to - never vote a party in,always vote them out...and never vote for a major party. That's why I like MMP.

[short-circuit]

Yes! Tomorrow I shall "waist my votes"

At least you won't be wasting them

[mashman]

Isn't that the point of voting? To vote for whom you feel will be the right candidate, for the reasons you hold dear at that particular point in time.

And as I have the right to vote anyway I would like. I shall file it with the rest of the last 23 votes. Straight into the bin. A positive vote if there ever was one :).

[oldrider]

At least you won't be wasting them

Thank you SC :o didn't even spot that, IOU one! :yes:

[Oblivion]

As a wise man once said, You cant trust a person that smiles that often.... :pinch:

[Big Dave]

It only encourages the Bastards.

[FJRider]

The current election campaign has sickened me ....


They just tell you what they want you to believe ... nothing changed there ...


Most commentators would judge my choices as "wasted votes" but I want to express "my" vote positively so tomorrow waste them I will.

It would change the political parties thinking if EVERYBODY did this ..


I shall also vote for change from MMP to STV.

You do realise ... even if EVERYBODY voted for a change AWAY from MMP ... the (elected) Goverment is under NO obligation to actually CHANGE anything ...


Yes! Tomorrow I shall "waste my votes" the way I believe if they were realised there would be improvements in the way New Zealand operates!

It won't make an iota of difference to the outcome of the (lucky dip) election but it will make a difference to how I feel about myself!


That is your right in the current New Zealand political system ...

[F5 Dave]

If it were a true democracy you would vote for major issue decisions, not just for people to (mis)represent you.

In my ideal electoral system you could cast votes against politicians. List ones could be knocked out if they were dickheads. Winne & other fools would never get to hold court.

Instead, all I have is a protest vote. Now I feel dirty.

[Robert Taylor]

if it were a true democracy you would vote for major issue decisions, not just for people to (mis)represent you.

In my ideal electoral system you could cast votes against politicians. List ones could be knocked out if they were dickheads. Winne & other fools would never get to hold court.

Instead, all i have is a protest vote. Now i feel dirty.

well said that man!

[Bytor]

well said that man!

+1 but my protest vote has been to not vote at all - be interesting to see what the turnout will be.

There should be an option to tick a 'None' box so at least the no vote is still a counted vote.

[bluninja]

What a load of cock.

You have the right to vote or not. Unlike some countries where you are obliged to vote, or be fined.

If you don't like your choices then either :-

put your head above the parapet and stand as a candidate
get involved in a political party so that the 'right' policies and people can be presented to voters as an option
vote for those that have the courage, or the desire to take the job.


Doing FA but whinging about the paucity of good candidates and policies, then binning your vote is a cop out in my book. But it is your right, and you have freedom of expression.

I've exercised my right (and moral obligation) to vote; and I have a lovely tasteful sticker.

[pete376403]

The decision to vote (or not) is taken pretty casually here - heard on NatRad that there are about 250,000, mostly aged between 18 - 30, not on the rolls. They will be the ones whining about the next government (of whatever persuasion).

The "Arab Spring" - Egypt, Libya, Syria, Bahrain, etc demonstrates how highly some people rate the right to vote.

[mashman]

The "Arab Spring" - Egypt, Libya, Syria, Bahrain, etc demonstrates how highly some people rate the right to vote.

Is that all it was about. Shit they coulda saved a lot of death and grief if that's all the problem was, who knew :shifty:.

[davereid]

The right to vote is only part of being free and democratic, and while its important we shouldn't forget the other bits.

Like the fact that ALL our laws are supposed to be debated before select committee and reflect public submissions and opinion.
Like the fact that we have the right to be considered innocent until proven guilty.
Like the fact we have the right to go about our business without being subject to random search and seizure.
Like the fact we are not supposed to be punished unless we are convicted.
Like the fact we have a free uncensored press.
Like the fact we are to be tried by a jury of our peers.

Except, that National have passed laws, without select committee that overturn ALL those principles.

And that they claim 48 percent of the vote is good enough for 60 seats. My maths says 48 percent of the house is 58 seats. And that 48 percent is a mandate to sell someone else's assets worth 37 billion for 5-7 Billion.

[Mom]

Democracy, freedom and the right to vote!

Tomorrow I shall exercise the privilege of my right to vote.

Most commentators would judge my choices as "wasted votes" but I want to express "my" vote positively so tomorrow waste them I will.

Good luck to everyone else ...... vote positively, the way that "you" want to ... good luck and have a nice day! :2thumbsup

I too am guilty of the wasted vote. In fact, it was not so much wasted as at least this time I could see the vote I made :lol:

I live in a blue ribbon electorate, nothing, but nothing will change that. Under FPP my vote was a total waste of time, unless it was for the sitting MP. Lockwood Smith (The Right Honourable). I used to think about spoilling my vote so at least it was recorded as such, if I was not voting for the sitting MP. Over the years I voted for many parties, but at least I voted.

The ones ( And there is at least one I call friend who does not vote) that dont vote really annoy the shit out of me.

Democracy.

The End.

[Ocean1]

I have a lovely tasteful sticker.

Fuck, they coulda bought me for that!!

I was there early too...

[Oakie]

Both my daughters wasted their votes last time on a novelty party but this time both researched what the mainstream parties had on offer an voted for the party that matched their individual viewpoints. Awwww, my girls are growing up (even if one did vote Green).

[Mom]

Both my daughters wasted their votes last time on a novelty party but this time both researched what the mainstream parties had on offer an voted for the party that matched their individual viewpoints. Awwww, my girls are growing up (even if one did vote Green).

A researched vote is never wasted.

[Mom]

Both my daughters wasted their votes last time on a novelty party but this time both researched what the mainstream parties had on offer an voted for the party that matched their individual viewpoints. Awwww, my girls are growing up (even if one did vote Green).

A researched vote is never wasted. Though it may not count.

[FJRider]

Both my daughters wasted their votes last time on a novelty party but this time both researched what the mainstream parties had on offer an voted for the party that matched their individual viewpoints. Awwww, my girls are growing up (even if one did vote Green).

It is MY opinion ... (and maybe ONLY my opinion) that most of those that actually voted ... DID research their vote. OR at least gave it some thought. Not just voted the way they always had.

[Mom]

WOW! I can repeat myself and add stuff...

Wish I knew how I did that :lol:

[FJRider]

A researched vote is never wasted. Though it may not count.

It IS counted in the statistics ... and statistics are important to those trying to make/prove a point.

Therefore it will never be a wasted vote, just one that will prove point. BUT ... the point proven will most likely be the waste of time ..

[FJRider]

WOW! I can repeat myself and add stuff...

Wish I knew how I did that :lol:

Blonde ...right ???

[avgas]

If it were a true democracy you would vote for major issue decisions, not just for people to (mis)represent you.

In my ideal electoral system you could cast votes against politicians. List ones could be knocked out if they were dickheads. Winne & other fools would never get to hold court.

Instead, all I have is a protest vote. Now I feel dirty.

I didn't vote due to basically the same as what you have said.
Turns out I am not the only one.......and we are growing.


Voter turnout for the 2011 General Election is estimated to be 73.83% of those enrolled as at 5pm Friday 25 November. This compares with a final 79.46% turnout of those enrolled in 2008.
http://www.elections.org.nz/study/news/preliminary-results-for-the-2011-general-election-and-advance-voting-for-the-referendum-on-the-voting-system.html

At what point do we realize that people don't care much for the government. Its currently at 26% on negative voter turn out vs (0.47 x 0.79) 37% for the biggest party in NZ!
More people "didn't vote" than voted for Labour.
Democracy? Most Regimes have more support.

However I do hope my boy has the inspiration to vote. Dreams are fantastic things.

[F5 Dave]

People do seem to get pretty high & mighty about people not voting. Heck what is the point of people making an informed decision with conviction when it is going to be wiped out by half a zillion McDonalds quaffing Tui drinking numbnuts who have been cajoled into casting a vote, probably based on what their mates spiel in a conversation the week before at the pub?

What if you hate all of the lying pricks who will always misrepresent you & can't bring yourself to vote for any of the fuckers?

As I said, if it were real democracy we would be able to vote on the issues. People who get on their high horses seem to overlook that. I want the right to be able to vote. But I don't have a gyp about people who don't. Lets not all kid ourselves - our votes mean stuff all after they have been cast & if there is deals to be done policy will run roughshod over the voters best interests; Seabed & foreshore anyone?.

[newhere]

I have a "don't moan if you don't vote theory" so now I am gonna have to keep my trap shut for the next 3 years - yeah, i forgot it was election day :facepalm:

[FJRider]

OK ...

A ... "What If" (scarey) theory ...

If ALL the people that DIDN'T vote ... voted for the party/person YOU most DIDN'T want in ... where would the "Balance of power" be held then ...

[avgas]

OK ...

A ... "What If" (scarey) theory ...

If ALL the people that DIDN'T vote ... voted for the party/person YOU most DIDN'T want in ... where would the "Balance of power" be held then ...
Probably be spread the same. As they might not like any of the wankers.
Now say they all went out and voted for the "closest match" like the the rest of the sheep. Now that could make things interesting.
We would end up with a diverse govt that would be even worse than the one we have. :corn:

[Berries]

The ones ( And there is at least one I call friend who does not vote) that dont vote really annoy the shit out of me.
I'm sure you'll get over it.

I've never voted, never really seen the point. I'm still going to have to go to work to pay the bills whoever is in power. Shoot me.

[FJRider]

Probably be spread the same. As they might not like any of the wankers.
Now say they all went out and voted for the "closest match" like the the rest of the sheep. Now that could make things interesting.
We would end up with a diverse govt that would be even worse than the one we have. :corn:

I said ... if they voted for the people YOU didn't want in ... better or worse than NOW ... ???

[bluninja]

I didn't vote due to basically the same as what you have said.
Turns out I am not the only one.......and we are growing.


http://www.elections.org.nz/study/news/preliminary-results-for-the-2011-general-election-and-advance-voting-for-the-referendum-on-the-voting-system.html

At what point do we realize that people don't care much for the government. Its currently at 26% on negative voter turn out vs (0.47 x 0.79) 37% for the biggest party in NZ!
More people "didn't vote" than voted for Labour.
Democracy? Most Regimes have more support.

However I do hope my boy has the inspiration to vote. Dreams are fantastic things.

Wow you have such a way with figures. Are you a frustrated closet politician? So 74% voted....26% didn't vote. That seems to me like a big majority chose to vote.

You can't know (except for your own personal reasons) why those 26% didn't vote. Perhaps 25% of the poulation are Jehova's Witnesses or 'fundamental christians' that believe the msutn't vote in politcal elections.:shit:

[davereid]

I can't actually understand the numbers, can someone enlighten me ?

I can't follow how National got 47.9% of the vote and get 60 seats. This seems to be one, possibly two more than their exact percentage.

Same appears to apply for Labour.

The Greens I can follow, they got "rounded up" from an actual calculation of 12.74, and I assume NZF got "rounded down" for the same reason.

Anyone know how it works ?


251646

[MisterD]

I can't follow how National got 47.9% of the vote and get 60 seats. This seems to be one, possibly two more than their exact percentage.

Same appears to apply for Labour.

The Greens I can follow, they got "rounded up" from an actual calculation of 12.74, and I assume NZF got "rounded down" for the same reason.

Anyone know how it works ?




It's because of the way that the "wasted" votes affect things. 47.9% is their percentage of total votes cast, the percentage of non-wasted votes will be slightly higher.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Very disappointing to me that so many didnt vote.

But I think a sign of how hated politics and politicians are.

My view is that if you dont vote twice in a row, you lose your ticket. You can get it back if you do, say, military service or something.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Wow you have such a way with figures. Are you a frustrated closet politician? So 74% voted....26% didn't vote. That seems to me like a big majority chose to vote.

You can't know (except for your own personal reasons) why those 26% didn't vote. Perhaps 25% of the poulation are Jehova's Witnesses or 'fundamental christians' that believe the msutn't vote in politcal elections.:shit:

unlikely:

http://www.stats.govt.nz/Census/2006CensusHomePage/QuickStats/quickstats-about-a-subject/culture-and-identity/religious-affiliation.aspx

[MisterD]

But I think a sign of how hated politics and politicians are.


I think it's also got a lot to do with the perception that the result was a foregone conclusion. I'm happy to predict a higher turnout next time when the result will likely be a lot tighter.

[oldrider]

I think it's also got a lot to do with the perception that the result was a foregone conclusion. I'm happy to predict a higher turnout next time when the result will likely be a lot tighter.

Add to that the frustration that individual voting feels about as effective as banging your head against a sponge rubber wall! :brick:

All that hype brainwashing and expense to end up at almost the same place as you were at the beginning!

People can't be blamed for thinking WTF, why bother and MMP just adds to that frustration!

Politicians today are only accountable and loyal to each other rather than to the voters who give them the right to be there!

Everything changes (big turn out for National and they lose some clout in the house) but everything that matters remains the same! :doh:

Referendum? .... What referendum? .... Oh it doesn't really count and isn't binding anyway! :mellow:

And so the beat goes on! :blink: dah de dah de duh! :corn:

[Oscar]

I can't actually understand the numbers, can someone enlighten me ?

I can't follow how National got 47.9% of the vote and get 60 seats. This seems to be one, possibly two more than their exact percentage.

Same appears to apply for Labour.

The Greens I can follow, they got "rounded up" from an actual calculation of 12.74, and I assume NZF got "rounded down" for the same reason.

Anyone know how it works ?


251646

It's because there's an overhang (i.e. the Maori party got more electorate seats than their party vote warranted, so there are 121 seats). However it's mainly because of the parties that are excluded because they have not crossed the 5% threshold (like Conservative at 2.8%).

[Oscar]

Add to that the frustration that individual voting feels about as effective as banging your head against a sponge rubber wall! :brick:

All that hype brainwashing and expense to end up at almost the same place as you were at the beginning!

People can't be blamed for thinking WTF, why bother and MMP just adds to that frustration!

Politicians today are only accountable and loyal to each other rather than to the voters who give them the right to be there!

Everything changes (big turn out for National and they lose some clout in the house) but everything that matters remains the same! :doh:

Referendum? .... What referendum? .... Oh it doesn't really count and isn't binding anyway! :mellow:

And so the beat goes on! :blink: dah de dah de duh! :corn:

Do you have a better way?
Nothing that you say is anything more than sour grapes.
The fact that you don't personally agree with the result is hardy an indictment on the system.‎

[Berries]

I think it's also got a lot to do with the perception that the result was a foregone conclusion.
Perhaps opinion polls during the election should be banned. If they say X party has 90% of the vote then it would seem pointless to vote for a different party. If they say Y party has 5% of the vote then you know voting for them is a waste of time. If there were no polls then more people may be encouraged to vote for who they want. I mean, what exactly do they add anyway, apart from filler material for the media to bang on about?

[Oscar]

Perhaps opinion polls during the election should be banned. If they say X party has 90% of the vote then it would seem pointless to vote for a different party. If they say Y party has 5% of the vote then you know voting for them is a waste of time. If there were no polls then more people may be encouraged to vote for who they want. I mean, what exactly do they add anyway, apart from filler material for the media to bang on about?

I agree.
I'm sure that political polling affected the outcome for the smallerparties.
People don't want to waste their vote, and human nature wants to back a winner.

[mashman]

Very disappointing to me that so many didnt vote.

But I think a sign of how hated politics and politicians are.

My view is that if you dont vote twice in a row, you lose your ticket. You can get it back if you do, say, military service or something.

Yay for the non voters :woohoo:

Or perhaps it's a sign of how useless the policies are? after all, politicians come and go, shit policy is forever.

In which case I will be allowed to keep everything that I earn and will not be expected to pay tax, rates, rego, GST etc... Seem fair enough?

[MisterD]

Perhaps opinion polls during the election should be banned.

I think there's a definite case for banning them in the last two weeks of the campaign or something like that. The Star Times running front page headlines on that dodgy Horizon thing was just ridiculous.

[BoristheBiter]

Isn't that the point of voting? To vote for whom you feel will be the right candidate, for the reasons you hold dear at that particular point in time.

And as I have the right to vote anyway I would like. I shall file it with the rest of the last 23 votes. Straight into the bin. A positive vote if there ever was one :).

So your what 87 then.


Yay for the non voters :woohoo:

Or perhaps it's a sign of how useless the policies are? after all, politicians come and go, shit policy is forever.

In which case I will be allowed to keep everything that I earn and will not be expected to pay tax, rates, rego, GST etc... Seem fair enough?

Or perhaps your just lazy? had more moaning to do on line? couldn't real care either way and just like trolling?

[mashman]

So your what 87 then.

Or perhaps your just lazy? had more moaning to do on line? couldn't real care either way and just like trolling?

heh, still just under half that age.

Indifferent, not apathetic. no more than usual :bleh: (tis a relatively new thing for me, especially politically). Oh I care alright and am just getting to grips with trolling (I obviously have a long way to go). What's your excuse?

[BoristheBiter]

heh, still just under half that age.

Indifferent, not apathetic. no more than usual :bleh: (tis a relatively new thing for me, especially politically). Oh I care alright and am just getting to grips with trolling (I obviously have a long way to go). What's your excuse?

I'm bored at work.

[mashman]

I'm bored at work.

Work harder then, maximise your potential.... fuckin slacker

[BoristheBiter]

Work harder then, maximise your potential.... fuckin slacker

Fuck that, i have employees that work for me. You know doley with a job.

[avgas]

Very disappointing to me that so many didnt vote.
But I think a sign of how hated politics and politicians are.
My view is that if you dont vote twice in a row, you lose your ticket. You can get it back if you do, say, military service or something.
You can keep the ticket. This ride is broken down anyway.

I think politicians should get the exact proportion of the votes they win. If 20% of people don't vote - we should by theory have 20% less politicians......or they should get 20% less money.

Thats what happens in the "real world" when people lose confidence in you.

[mashman]

Fuck that, i have employees that work for me. You know doley with a job.

Awwww, you're all heart. I have a tear trickling down my cheek... albeit that's probably empathising with your employees

[imdying]

Yes, there are things we don't like. Let us ban them.

Why don't you reds just cut to the chase and use force to install the government of your choosing :facepalm:

[oldrider]

Do you have a better way?
Nothing that you say is anything more than sour grapes.
The fact that you don't personally agree with the result is hardy an indictment on the system.‎

Yes I do actually believe there are better ways but they are just my personal (and obviously minority)opinion.

Sour grapes? Why? You are the ones who have to live with it! I will be just a passenger as I am now!

Disappointed rather than sour grapes, I would prefer to move off into the great unknown knowing that you were all in sound safe hands in a world full of opportunity and comfort .... Utopia would be nice!

My wife and I believe our generation has experienced as close to Utopia as it could get, unfortunately we didn't leave it that way for those following!

Hate it when that happens .... sour grapes? never .... disappointed? Absolutely! :weep:

[duckonin]

Old rider, Whoa back, what you have said is way too deep for those on this forum.:yes:

[jazfender]

Why do voters care if others don't? Doesn't it just increase the chances their candidate will get in?

[Berries]

Why do voters care if others don't?
I am sure there is a similarity there with the ATGATT crusaders.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Yes, there are things we don't like. Let us ban them.

Why don't you reds just cut to the chase and use force to install the government of your choosing :facepalm:

If thats an option I want a fancy uniform with a lot of braid, on of those BIG hats, a sash, many medals, a sword and a gold plated AK-47. and a fleet of pimped out Chevy Suburbans (armoured, natch) for me, my mistresses and my entourage, and my guards

[Berries]

and a fleet of pimped out Chevy Suburbans (armoured, natch)
Will a BMW do sir?

[Ocean1]

You can keep the ticket. This ride is broken down anyway.

I think politicians should get the exact proportion of the votes they win. If 20% of people don't vote - we should by theory have 20% less politicians......or they should get 20% less money.

Thats what happens in the "real world" when people lose confidence in you.

That's fucking brilliant!!


Wonder why is wasn't on the referendum thingie....

[davereid]

My wife and I believe our generation has experienced as close to Utopia as it could get, unfortunately we didn't leave it that way for those following!

Bling to you. I feel the same way.

I grew up in a New Zealand where everyone had a job.

State Housing was high quality, and coal, firewood and electricity was plentiful and cheap, so we were never cold.

We had the best health system in the world, and we rewarded ourselves with free universities, which we paid ourselves to study at.

Pensions were generous and a leg of lamb cost about 20 minutes pay, so we ate well and were possibly the healthiest people on the planet.

Me, and those of my generation have now created a new world.

We have created massive wealth for some, but send 250,000 kids to school each day from families entirely dependent on welfare.
Our health systems creak and are out of reach for many.

We reformed everything, and somehow lost of touch of what had made us happy and wealthy.

I don't know the solutions, but I look at what we are building nervously.

We seem to be sitting back while our governments quietly build themselves the tools of tyranny, comforting ourselves that only the bad have something to fear.

I expect my Grandchildren will be tracked at every move, will have their opinions controlled and censored, and will exist only to ensure the state gets its pound.

[oneofsix]

Bling to you. I feel the same way.

I grew up in a New Zealand where everyone had a job.

State Housing was high quality, and coal, firewood and electricity was plentiful and cheap, so we were never cold.

We had the best health system in the world, and we rewarded ourselves with free universities, which we paid ourselves to study at.

Pensions were generous and a leg of lamb cost about 20 minutes pay, so we ate well and were possibly the healthiest people on the planet.

Me, and those of my generation have now created a new world.

We have created massive wealth for some, but send 250,000 kids to school each day from families entirely dependent on welfare.
Our health systems creak and are out of reach for many.

We reformed everything, and somehow lost of touch of what had made us happy and wealthy.

I don't know the solutions, but I look at what we are building nervously.

We seem to be sitting back while our governments quietly build themselves the tools of tyranny, comforting ourselves that only the bad have something to fear.

I expect my Grandchildren will be tracked at every move, will have their opinions controlled and censored, and will exist only to ensure the state gets its pound.

I feel you take a bit too much of the blame on yourself. You probably yelled and shouted the warnings. complained about the changes but were ignored, I know I have and still am. We, as in NZ, have just elected a government the prescribes more of the same of what took us from that Utopia to where we are now and yet the 'we' expect this to make live better. We, you oldrider and me, never lost touch with what made us happy and wealthy it is just that more devious people stole it under the guise of such things as the IMF and the UN and the wonderful free market. I too worry about the grandkids, their parents are already being brainwashed to tell everyone everything about themselves through the likes of Facespy etc, no need for the old KGB trick of using the neighbour to spy on you

[BoristheBiter]

Bling to you. I feel the same way.

I grew up in a New Zealand where everyone had a job.

State Housing was high quality, and coal, firewood and electricity was plentiful and cheap, so we were never cold.

We had the best health system in the world, and we rewarded ourselves with free universities, which we paid ourselves to study at.

Pensions were generous and a leg of lamb cost about 20 minutes pay, so we ate well and were possibly the healthiest people on the planet.

Me, and those of my generation have now created a new world.

We have created massive wealth for some, but send 250,000 kids to school each day from families entirely dependent on welfare.
Our health systems creak and are out of reach for many.

We reformed everything, and somehow lost of touch of what had made us happy and wealthy.

I don't know the solutions, but I look at what we are building nervously.

We seem to be sitting back while our governments quietly build themselves the tools of tyranny, comforting ourselves that only the bad have something to fear.

I expect my Grandchildren will be tracked at every move, will have their opinions controlled and censored, and will exist only to ensure the state gets its pound.

We became lazy, expected others to do things for us and live a lifestyle we could not pay for.
HP, credit cards and the like have a lot to answer for. If we wanted a new tv, car, phone etc back then we had to save for it and our credit rating meant everything.

Government are only put there by the voters. If you want to vote for a party because they will give you free money, labour's student loan scam is the classic example, then what do you expect.

[F5 Dave]

. . . If you want to vote for a party because they will give you free money, . . ..
Is this thread still going? Oh well, my parting comment is that one of the parties when making election promises did something a bit grotesque. They actually put a $ figure on how much they would pay for the votes. What was it? $1500 I think.

- but the clever bit is they were buying votes knowing that they would never have to honour the pledge as they would never get in. But it paid for probably a few more seats than they may have gotten. Clever & Evil.

[avgas]

Bling to you. I feel the same way.

I grew up in a New Zealand where everyone had a job.

State Housing was high quality, and coal, firewood and electricity was plentiful and cheap, so we were never cold.

We had the best health system in the world, and we rewarded ourselves with free universities, which we paid ourselves to study at.

Pensions were generous and a leg of lamb cost about 20 minutes pay, so we ate well and were possibly the healthiest people on the planet.

Me, and those of my generation have now created a new world.
You son of a bitch.
I didn't get any of those things......
sucks to be me

[avgas]

That's fucking brilliant!!
Wonder why is wasn't on the referendum thingie....
Because it used to be common sense.
If I didn't like something I had every right to say "Get fucked" and look elsewhere.
When it comes to government, seems there is no way to not be fucked. Its a silly game of "I will vote for this person, to stop that one".

I don't play games that are on such a serious matter. If you don't like something you have every right to simply walk away from it.
Common sense states that if no one likes it - it should be gone. Seems the only except to the rule is the government.......who seem to write their own rules.

It wasn't on the referendum because they don't actually care about what people think. They never did. And until there is a riot in the streets asking for their heads - they will only step down on their own accord. Its a pity that 70% of NZers are trying to see if the system works.
Isn't insanity defined as doing something over and over again expecting a different result?
Who's votes wasted now?

[Ocean1]

If I didn't like something I had every right to say "Get fucked" and look elsewhere.


You still do, I don't consider anyone has the authority to take that from us.

I take advantage of it regularly.

[BoristheBiter]

Because it used to be common sense.
If I didn't like something I had every right to say "Get fucked" and look elsewhere.
When it comes to government, seems there is no way to not be fucked. Its a silly game of "I will vote for this person, to stop that one".

I don't play games that are on such a serious matter. If you don't like something you have every right to simply walk away from it.
Common sense states that if no one likes it - it should be gone. Seems the only except to the rule is the government.......who seem to write their own rules.

It wasn't on the referendum because they don't actually care about what people think. They never did. And until there is a riot in the streets asking for their heads - they will only step down on their own accord. Its a pity that 70% of NZers are trying to see if the system works.
Isn't insanity defined as doing something over and over again expecting a different result?
Who's votes wasted now?

Well thats MMP for ya.

[oneofsix]

Well thats MMP for ya.

what the fuck has that to do with MMP? :crazy:

[BoristheBiter]

what the fuck has that to do with MMP? :crazy:

Everything.
The top party, after an election, has to make a coalition with whom ever they are able and because of that some fringe party gets their policy in so we end up with policy that no one likes.

So that is where the common sense has gone.

[davereid]

Everything.
The top party, after an election, has to make a coalition with whom ever they are able and because of that some fringe party gets their policy in so we end up with policy that no one likes.

So that is where the common sense has gone.

They would not have passed the 5% or electorate threshold if no one liked them.

But democracy is an entire toolbox of things. The hammer in the box is the election, its the biggest tool and it can effect the most change in the shortest time.

But the other tools are also very important, they are supposed to survive changes in government, and ensure that we enjoy the benefits of democracy and freedom all the time, not just in the five weeks before an election.

I'm watching as our government side tracks us with debate about the hammer, its weight colour and handle shape, while they are quietly removing all the other tools from the box.

Those who see it and comment get told they are paranoid, that its for good reason, or that the government would never do us harm.

But a brief look at history tells us we are at much at risk from those who profess to care, as we are from those who profess to hate.

[BoristheBiter]

They would not have passed the 5% or electorate threshold if no one liked them.

But democracy is an entire toolbox of things. The hammer in the box is the election, its the biggest tool and it can effect the most change in the shortest time.

But the other tools are also very important, they are supposed to survive changes in government, and ensure that we enjoy the benefits of democracy and freedom all the time, not just in the five weeks before an election.

I'm watching as our government side tracks us with debate about the hammer, its weight colour and handle shape, while they are quietly removing all the other tools from the box.

Those who see it and comment get told they are paranoid, that its for good reason, or that the government would never do us harm.

But a brief look at history tells us we are at much at risk from those who profess to care, as we are from those who profess to hate.

act or united future didn't get 5%, I think they got 1%, and those two hold the balance of power.

Can you tell me what tools we have lost so far and what impact it has had on me as I am yet to see anything.

[scumdog]

We became lazy, expected others to do things for us and live a lifestyle we could not pay for.
HP, credit cards and the like have a lot to answer for. If we wanted a new tv, car, phone etc back then we had to save for it and our credit rating meant everything.

t.

What's this 'we' paleface??

But you're right re the credit thing and easy loans.

Thats' one thing the Government COULD interfere with I reckon.

(i.e. "In my day" to buy a car from a dealer (no bank woule lend you money for a fripery like a car) you had to have two-thirds of the price in cash as a deposit, half the price if you were buying a ute)

How many 17 to 25 year-olds are up to their neck in hock due to easy loans - at 20%+ interest?

[imdying]

Thats' one thing the Government COULD interfere with I reckon.

(i.e. "In my day" to buy a car from a dealer (no bank woule lend you money for a fripery like a car) you had to have two-thirds of the price in cash as a deposit, half the price if you were buying a ute)

How many 17 to 25 year-olds are up to their neck in hock due to easy loans - at 20%+ interest?Goody, more laws to cater to the lowest common denominator.

[davereid]

Can you tell me what tools we have lost so far and what impact it has had on me as I am yet to see anything.

No single law has entirely emptied the tool box. But for some "good causes" you have lost :

(1) The presumption of innocence. There are now several laws that assume you are guilty until you prove, at your cost that you are not.
(2) The right to be tried by a jury. The threshold has been raised, and majority verdicts are on the agenda.
(3) The right to remain silent. Long gone, in fact if you don't answer questions, and provide the evidence on request you are now in many cases fu*ked.
(4) Freedom from search and seizure. Now in many circumstances gone. You may be held, and searched now under numerous laws, without warrant or even cause.
(5) The right not to be punished before convicted of a crime. We now have many laws on the books where the punishment is applied before the court hearing. If you are innocent, well, if you have enough money you may be able to get reparation.
(6) The right to associate with people of your choice. Long gone. The government can decide that.
(7) You are now censored. You now need permission under many circumstances to state facts, or to view material, which while the behavior is legal, the state restricts your access to. And your internet is blocked - the state decides what gives you a 404 error.

Your passport photo, the cameras at the border, your drivers licence photo, those new cameras at the supermarket, all create a signature, which follows you as clearly as a bar code on your face.

Don't believe me ? Send the agencies in question an OIA request. I have. They are all doing it, and working out how to share that barcode.

No national ID card yet ? well, NZ has done better than the rest of the world. They all want you to have a card you carry. Our lot saw we wouldn't like that. So they have done a "virtual" (and voluntary as long as you don't want to get a benefit, pay tax or drive) ID card.

In the next few years you will have to go to the Post Office and get your IGOVT photo ID card. The clever bit is you don't need to carry it, or even really know it even exists. (Actually, you can go in March next year if you want to, thats kick off day)

As you walk around, you face provides your ID number. No card, just a digital one at Govt ID HQ.

There will of course be "good reasons" why all these losses of our democracy, freedom and privacy have occurred.

They will all be justifiable, and of course you will be protected. No problem eh.

[mashman]

Thats' one thing the Government COULD interfere with I reckon.


They already are, but not in the direction you want them too :)... what would the banks say to a govt sticking its nose into their business... other than, go take a flying fuck to yourself ex-prime minister

[BoristheBiter]

No single law has entirely emptied the tool box. But for some "good causes" you have lost :

(1) The presumption of innocence. There are now several laws that assume you are guilty until you prove, at your cost that you are not.
(2) The right to be tried by a jury. The threshold has been raised, and majority verdicts are on the agenda.
(3) The right to remain silent. Long gone, in fact if you don't answer questions, and provide the evidence on request you are now in many cases fu*ked.
(4) Freedom from search and seizure. Now in many circumstances gone. You may be held, and searched now under numerous laws, without warrant or even cause.
(5) The right not to be punished before convicted of a crime. We now have many laws on the books where the punishment is applied before the court hearing. If you are innocent, well, if you have enough money you may be able to get reparation.
(6) The right to associate with people of your choice. Long gone. The government can decide that.
(7) You are now censored. You now need permission under many circumstances to state facts, or to view material, which while the behavior is legal, the state restricts your access to. And your internet is blocked - the state decides what gives you a 404 error.

Your passport photo, the cameras at the border, your drivers licence photo, those new cameras at the supermarket, all create a signature, which follows you as clearly as a bar code on your face.

Don't believe me ? Send the agencies in question an OIA request. I have. They are all doing it, and working out how to share that barcode.

No national ID card yet ? well, NZ has done better than the rest of the world. They all want you to have a card you carry. Our lot saw we wouldn't like that. So they have done a "virtual" (and voluntary as long as you don't want to get a benefit, pay tax or drive) ID card.

In the next few years you will have to go to the Post Office and get your IGOVT photo ID card. The clever bit is you don't need to carry it, or even really know it even exists. (Actually, you can go in March next year if you want to, thats kick off day)

As you walk around, you face provides your ID number. No card, just a digital one at Govt ID HQ.

There will of course be "good reasons" why all these losses of our democracy, freedom and privacy have occurred.

They will all be justifiable, and of course you will be protected. No problem eh.

Sorry but that's just wank.
All of those are just excuses of a criminal or a tinfoil hat wearer.

If you are so hell bent on not being tracked go live in the bush.
As for you right to do things I have never been stopped from looking at anything, whether on the internet or imported into NZ, so the stuff you must want to look at must be some deviant shit.

Still you haven't come up with anything that hasn't been around for the last 50 years, only the ease at with it is collected has changed.
And in fact most of the things you have quotes are now so far in the criminal's favor that your points become irrelevant.

But as you say no tool has been removed so no problem.

[Oakie]

It is MY opinion ... (and maybe ONLY my opinion) that most of those that actually voted ... DID research their vote. OR at least gave it some thought. Not just voted the way they always had.

Never thought about it but you may be right. MMP certainly makes it worthwhile looking at what the minor parties have on offer.

[Ocean1]

Sorry but that's just wank.
All of those are just excuses of a criminal or a tinfoil hat wearer.

If you are so hell bent on not being tracked go live in the bush.
As for you right to do things I have never been stopped from looking at anything, whether on the internet or imported into NZ, so the stuff you must want to look at must be some deviant shit.

Still you haven't come up with anything that hasn't been around for the last 50 years, only the ease at with it is collected has changed.
And in fact most of the things you have quotes are now so far in the criminal's favor that your points become irrelevant.

But as you say no tool has been removed so no problem.

Hes said no tool has ENTIRELY been removed. He then listed several specific rights you've lost over the last decade.

If you don't have a problem with that then you've not read much history.

[davereid]

Sorry but that's just wank. All of those are just excuses of a criminal or a tinfoil hat wearer. If you are so hell bent on not being tracked go live in the bush. As for you right to do things I have never been stopped from looking at anything, whether on the internet or imported into NZ, so the stuff you must want to look at must be some deviant shit.

The thing about democracy, freedom, and the right to vote, is that they are fragile rights.

They may be taken from you in an instant by an invader or coup, or just lost gradually as governments observe that they act unchallenged.

You asked me for an example of what had changed. I gave you a comprehensive list. Instead of saying why I was mistaken you just attacked me personally.

And as you have commented, only criminals need fear the complete control of government.

The problem is, that (relatively modern) governments have made it criminal to oppose slavery, to be in (or not be in) a union, to support a particular political view, to be female, homosexual, Christian, not Christian, dance if you are Irish, or to have sex with your wife unless the lord has already fucked her.

[scumdog]

Goody, more laws to cater to the lowest common denominator.

The laws re H.P. USE to be there - they took them away and now the 'lowest common denomitor' types are 'reaping the benefit'.
NOT.:no:

Are you a money lender or something??<_<

[mashman]

If any of this is true (http://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security/senators-demand-military-lock-american-citizens-battlefield-they-define-being), and I urge you to read it, our govt is the least of our concerns.

"The Senate is going to vote on whether Congress will give this president—and every future president — the power to order the military to pick up and imprison without charge or trial civilians anywhere in the world"

Democracy, freedom and the right to vo........ EOL

[scumdog]

If any of this is true (http://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security/senators-demand-military-lock-american-citizens-battlefield-they-define-being), and I urge you to read it, our govt is the least of our concerns.

"The Senate is going to vote on whether Congress will give this president—and every future president — the power to order the military to pick up and imprison without charge or trial civilians anywhere in the world"

Democracy, freedom and the right to vo........ EOL


Mwahahahaahah!!!......:rofl:.

[BoristheBiter]

You asked me for an example of what had changed. I gave you a comprehensive list. Instead of saying why I was mistaken you just attacked me personally.


Just re-read my post and it does sound that way, sorry no intent to personal attack you I just think you are so far wrong it's laughable.

All those things you mentioned we still have, yes they have been tweaked but they are still there,
(1) The presumption of innocence. There are now several laws that assume you are guilty until you prove, at your cost that you are not.
You still have that right, nothing has changed there, unless you mean speeding and that is a whole different law.
(2) The right to be tried by a jury. The threshold has been raised, and majority verdicts are on the agenda.
You still have this right, they changed the threshold so anyone with a lesser charge wouldn't hold up court time, i.e shopliffting.
(3) The right to remain silent. Long gone, in fact if you don't answer questions, and provide the evidence on request you are now in many cases fu*ked.
Wrong again, it's "you have the right to refrain from making a statement" and its still there, failing to provide details is, I guess what you're talking about, and to say you're fucked is stretching it a bit.
(4) Freedom from search and seizure. Now in many circumstances gone. You may be held, and searched now under numerous laws, without warrant or even cause.
Again what laws are you quoting? NZ BOR #109 "Everyone has the right to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure, whether of the person, property, or correspondence or otherwise"
(5) The right not to be punished before convicted of a crime. We now have many laws on the books where the punishment is applied before the court hearing. If you are innocent, well, if you have enough money you may be able to get reparation.
Like what? Do you want rapists and murderers walking around? I know i don't.
(6) The right to associate with people of your choice. Long gone. The government can decide that.
Again crap unless you are on bail or parole and these are the conditions.
(7) You are now censored. You now need permission under many circumstances to state facts, or to view material, which while the behavior is legal, the state restricts your access to. And your internet is blocked - the state decides what gives you a 404 error.
because we all want our kids subjected to some deviant don't we.




The problem is, that (relatively modern) governments have made it criminal to oppose slavery, to be in (or not be in) a union, to support a particular political view, to be female, homosexual, Christian, not Christian, dance if you are Irish, or to have sex with your wife unless the lord has already fucked her.

Oh so you are talking about medieval times in Europe, sorry i thought we were talking about now in NZ. If you want to go down those lines (relatively modern) governments have started using "the bill of rights" so lets remove that as it stops me (a land owner) from taxing my serfs, and giving them a good thrashing if there is none.

[SPman]

If you want to go down those lines (relatively modern) governments have started using "the bill of rights" - where and when it suits them. Several current NZ ministers have come out and said, bills they are proposing, don't comply with the BOR and are blatantly unrepentant about it. (Paula Bennet, for one.)

Guilt on accusation - the new Copyright act. Crime Proceeds recovery Act - a lower standard of evidence and a reverse onus of proof – “reasonable grounds to believe”, without conviction, violates the minimum standards of criminal procedure affirmed in the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act .

It seems, currently, that "western" governments around the world, treat the accepted notion of "democracy", as an increasingly inconvenient annoyance, to be paid lip service to, only when they want to give the public the illusion, that they are "serving the people", when, in truth, they basically couldn't give a rat's arse about the public, except at the increasing sham, that elections are becoming. The major parties seem to be sliding into unison - Labour parties in the UK and Aus, for example, are more right wing than a lot of the old Tory parties. In the USA, Dem or Rep - what's the difference? Parties of the rich, for the rich, with increasing disdain, if not downright hostility to the public who ostensibly keep them in power. Part of the reason for voter fall off, is that there is less and less, a clear choice between those who would deign to be in control.

[BoristheBiter]

- where and when it suits them. Several current NZ ministers have come out and said, bills they are proposing, don't comply with the BOR and are blatantly unrepentant about it. (Paula Bennet, for one.)

Guilt on accusation - the new Copyright act. Crime Proceeds recovery Act - a lower standard of evidence and a reverse onus of proof – “reasonable grounds to believe”, without conviction, violates the minimum standards of criminal procedure affirmed in the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act .

It seems, currently, that "western" governments around the world, treat the accepted notion of "democracy", as an increasingly inconvenient annoyance, to be paid lip service to, only when they want to give the public the illusion, that they are "serving the people", when, in truth, they basically couldn't give a rat's arse about the public, except at the increasing sham, that elections are becoming. The major parties seem to be sliding into unison - Labour parties in the UK and Aus, for example, are more right wing than a lot of the old Tory parties. In the USA, Dem or Rep - what's the difference? Parties of the rich, for the rich, with increasing disdain, if not downright hostility to the public who ostensibly keep them in power. Part of the reason for voter fall off, is that there is less and less, a clear choice between those who would deign to be in control.


You can keep regurgitation the same old anti-government rubbish. it is now getting old and i have yet to see any change.
The laws you quote have no bearing unless you are into criminal activities.

And if I was a politician having to put up with this constant drivel on a daily biases I would only pay you lip service as well.
What you fail to realize is that the world changes, people change and economy's change and the governments of the day have to do what they think is best for their respective country and if you don't like them you get a chance every election to change the government.
You might not agree with who gets voted in, and by the sounds of no one would make you happy, but that's democracy for you.

[davereid]

Here is a nice example of modern New Zealand law.

I have reproduced it faithfully except for the designation of the "officer" which I have abbreviated.

Subpart 2—Powers relevant
Production of information
(1)A SS officer or a SS authorised person may require any person—
(a)to produce information or documents; or
(b)to answer relevant questions; or
(c)to provide personal information about that individual, including identifying information such as the person’s name, place of residence, place of business, date of birth, and gender.

Power of entry without warrant for inspection
(1)At any reasonable time a SS officer or a SS authorised person may enter and inspect a place without a warrant for the purpose of determining whether or not a person is complying with this Act, regulations made under it, or standards issued under it.
(1)A SS officer or a SS authorised person may stop a vehicle to exercise the power conferred by section 104.

Personal search power
Power to detain and search
(1)In the circumstances described in subsection (2), a SS OFFICER may—
(a)detain a person for as long as is reasonably necessary to carry out a search of that person; and
(b)search the person; and
(c)take possession of any information to which subsection (2) applies.

Duty of persons with knowledge of computer system or other data storage devices to assist access

(1)A person exercising a search power in any place or vehicle or in respect of any other thing may require a specified person to provide access information and other information or assistance that is reasonable and necessary to allow the person exercising the search power to access data held in—
(a)a computer system that is located (in whole or in part) in the place or the vehicle or other thing being searched:
(b)any other data storage device that is located (in whole or in part) at the place or in the vehicle or other thing being searched.

Special powers where application for search warrant pending
(1)If an application for a search warrant is about to be made or has been made and has not yet been granted or refused by an issuing officer, a SS officer present at the place or vehicle that is or is to be the subject of the application may, if authorised by subsection (2),—(a) enter and secure the place, vehicle, or other thing in respect of which authorisation to enter and search is being sought, and secure any items found at that place or in that vehicle or other thing, at any time...

[scumdog]

Here is a nice example of modern New Zealand law.

I have reproduced it faithfully except for the designation of the "officer" which I have abbreviated.

Subpart 2—Powers relevant
Production of information
(1)A SS officer or a SS authorised person may require any person—
(a)to produce information or documents; or
(b)to answer relevant questions; or
(c)to provide personal information about that individual, including identifying information such as the person’s name, place of residence, place of business, date of birth, and gender.

Power of entry without warrant for inspection
(1)At any reasonable time a SS officer or a SS authorised person may enter and inspect a place without a warrant for the purpose of determining whether or not a person is complying with this Act, regulations made under it, or standards issued under it.
(1)A SS officer or a SS authorised person may stop a vehicle to exercise the power conferred by section 104.

Personal search power
Power to detain and search
(1)In the circumstances described in subsection (2), a SS OFFICER may—
(a)detain a person for as long as is reasonably necessary to carry out a search of that person; and
(b)search the person; and
(c)take possession of any information to which subsection (2) applies.

..

And???:yawn::wait::scratch:

[davereid]

Well scumdog, Boristheplonker had agreed with me that we had lost the presumption of innocence.

He had agreed that for many we have lost the right to be tried by a jury.

However he had maintained that we have the right to remain silent. I offered this law as a demonstration that he was wrong.

He had also maintained that we have the right not to be subject to unreasonable search and seizure.
I offered this law as a demonstration that he was wrong.

I think it matters. You and Boris don't. I wonder what your Grandkids will think.

[Ocean1]

And???:yawn::wait::scratch:


It's odious. It's also at odds with what most democratic nations hold as their bill of rights.

I, for one decline to allow the transgression. I'm aware of at least four telecom workers that did too, one after the other...

Y'see, they can SAY you don't have certain rights under certain circumstances, and they can charge you under the act for not agreeing with that, but they can't actually make you comply.

Fuckem.

[scumdog]

I think it matters. You and Boris don't. I wonder what your Grandkids will think.

I wonder what my Grand-dad thinks about right now.

Fought in WW1 for what?

And

Chicken or egg moment-

Does our deteriorating behaviour cause the Gov't to think there is a need to bring in these laws you disagreee with?

Or does the Gov't making these 'draconian' laws cause us all to lower our standards in subconscious retaliation???

[SPman]

Treat people like idiots - they'll eventually behave like idiots. - until your back is turned.........

[BoristheBiter]

Here is a nice example of modern New Zealand law.

I have reproduced it faithfully except for the designation of the "officer" which I have abbreviated.

No you haven't. you have left off all relevant section and act's that they fall under.

Subpart 2—Powers relevant
Production of information
(1)A SS officer or a SS authorised person may require any person—
(a)to produce information or documents; or
(b)to answer relevant questions; or
(c)to provide personal information about that individual, including identifying information such as the person’s name, place of residence, place of business, date of birth, and gender.

Power of entry without warrant for inspection
(1)At any reasonable time a SS officer or a SS authorised person may enter and inspect a place without a warrant for the purpose of determining whether or not a person is complying with this Act, regulations made under it, or standards issued under it.
(1)A SS officer or a SS authorised person may stop a vehicle to exercise the power conferred by section 104.

Personal search power
Power to detain and search
(1)In the circumstances described in subsection (2), a SS OFFICER may—
(a)detain a person for as long as is reasonably necessary to carry out a search of that person; and
(b)search the person; and
(c)take possession of any information to which subsection (2) applies.

Duty of persons with knowledge of computer system or other data storage devices to assist access

(1)A person exercising a search power in any place or vehicle or in respect of any other thing may require a specified person to provide access information and other information or assistance that is reasonable and necessary to allow the person exercising the search power to access data held in—
(a)a computer system that is located (in whole or in part) in the place or the vehicle or other thing being searched:
(b)any other data storage device that is located (in whole or in part) at the place or in the vehicle or other thing being searched.

Special powers where application for search warrant pending
(1)If an application for a search warrant is about to be made or has been made and has not yet been granted or refused by an issuing officer, a SS officer present at the place or vehicle that is or is to be the subject of the application may, if authorised by subsection (2),—(a) enter and secure the place, vehicle, or other thing in respect of which authorisation to enter and search is being sought, and secure any items found at that place or in that vehicle or other thing, at any time...


Well scumdog, Boristheplonker had agreed with me that we had lost the presumption of innocence.

He had agreed that for many we have lost the right to be tried by a jury.

However he had maintained that we have the right to remain silent. I offered this law as a demonstration that he was wrong.
For a start we are not in the USA, so it is right to refrain from making a statement and is completely different from the land transport act's failure to provide details.

He had also maintained that we have the right not to be subject to unreasonable search and seizure.
I offered this law as a demonstration that he was wrong.

I think it matters. You and Boris don't. I wonder what your Grandkids will think.

you have had to cut so much out of these sections to try and make your argument.
you are wrong on so many levels I don't now where to start so I won't, I just can't be bothered to try and have an informed discussion when you can't even quote or fit the full sections and what they attain to.

As for calling them SS officers :facepalm: what are you 12?
seems you can't have a normal discussion with getting personal either.

[davereid]

This is not from the Land Transport Act Boris.

Its a single Act, and is not cherry picked from a range of different laws.

[oldrider]

Treat people like idiots - they'll eventually behave like idiots. - until your back is turned.........

And then they "will" behave like idiots with a vengeance! :Pokey: :bash: just for entertainment! :corn:

[SPman]

And then they "will" behave like idiots with a vengeance! http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/images/smilies/pokey.gif http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/images/smilies/bash.gif just for entertainment! http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/images/smilies/popcorn.gif
There's something about getting to an age where you don't really care what people do or say, just being an observer and prodding them sometimes.......:corn:

[mashman]

And then they "will" behave like idiots with a vengeance! :Pokey: :bash: just for entertainment! :corn:

Idiots Rule... or lead depending on your terminology

[BoristheBiter]

This is not from the Land Transport Act Boris.

Its a single Act, and is not cherry picked from a range of different laws.

What act then?
come on you started this "our rights have been taken away" shit.
Put up or shut up, and use the whole law not just some cut and pasted crap.

But I won't hold my breath.

[davereid]

What act then?
come on you started this "our rights have been taken away" shit.
Put up or shut up, and use the whole law not just some cut and pasted crap.

But I won't hold my breath.


I didn't say our rights have been taken away. I said they will be taken small step by small step. I see this as such a step.

You said they were not being taken away and that what I said could not happen.
Then you said its the transport act so its OK.

So are you arguing that I have quoted something that does not exist ?

Or that if you knew the reason they would be OK ? Thats its OK if its for a "good reason" ?

I have proven everything I said.

[BoristheBiter]

I didn't say our rights have been taken away. I said they will be taken small step by small step. I see this as such a step.

You said they were not being taken away and that what I said could not happen.
Then you said its the transport act so its OK.

So are you arguing that I have quoted something that does not exist ?

Or that if you knew the reason they would be OK ? Thats its OK if its for a "good reason" ?

I have proven everything I said.

So you have like........nothing. no real surprise there.
you are even are back tracking on what you said.

You would make a good labour spin doctor or find a job at the herald.

[davereid]

So you have like........nothing. no real surprise there.
you are even are back tracking on what you said.

You would make a good labour spin doctor or find a job at the herald.

I haven't back tracked once.

I said we had lost some of these rights, you denied it quoting bits of the bill of rights.

I produced evidence. You said it was OK as it was only the Transport Act.

I pointed out its not the Transport Act.

Thats where we are right now.

The legislation in question is the ear tagging bill.

The man with all the powers to stop, search, seize, and do seizure in anticipation of being able to get a search warrant is the ear tag inspector.

[BoristheBiter]

I haven't back tracked once.

I said we had lost some of these rights, you denied it quoting bits of the bill of rights.

I produced evidence. You said it was OK as it was only the Transport Act.

I pointed out its not the Transport Act.

Thats where we are right now.

The legislation in question is the ear tagging bill.

The man with all the powers to stop, search, seize, and do seizure in anticipation of being able to get a search warrant is the ear tag inspector.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

So you aren't even talking about people.

What a cock.

[oldrider]

Anyone else notice the unseemly biased media attention being given to the Labour party leadership scramble?

Labour have just been rejected by their own and the electorate in general and the media think it rates as top "news" FFS!

Proof of the pudding who the media rate as important and who the bulk of them support .... never been clearer!

The "Labour National media alliance" is what is controlling and killing this country .... wake up New Zealand you are being taken for a bloody ride! :brick:

[mashman]

Anyone else notice the unseemly biased media attention being given to the Labour party leadership scramble?

Labour have just been rejected by their own and the electorate in general and the media think it rates as top "news" FFS!

Proof of the pudding who the media rate as important and who the bulk of them support .... never been clearer!

The "Labour National media alliance" is what is controlling and killing this country .... wake up New Zealand you are being taken for a bloody ride! :brick:

It's more entertaining than focussing on the opposition and the policies that they're putting in place... isn't that what it's about

meanwhile CHOON interlude


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubxYYzYNP84

[davereid]

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

So you aren't even talking about people.

What a cock.

LOL do you really think the premises, car, and computer, they have the power to search belong to the cow !

Surely you are only pretending to be that stupid.... this is a leg pull surely...

Yes Boris, its the PEOPLE the law applies to.

The hint is in the word PERSON.

I have underlined it for you, hope it helps.

Power of entry without warrant for inspection
(1)At any reasonable time a SS officer or a SS authorised person may enter and inspect a place without a warrant for the purpose of determining whether or not a person is complying with this Act, regulations made under it, or standards issued under it.
(1)A SS officer or a SS authorised person may stop a vehicle to exercise the power conferred by section 104.

Personal search power
Power to detain and search
(1)In the circumstances described in subsection (2), a SS OFFICER may—
(a)detain a person for as long as is reasonably necessary to carry out a search of that person; and
(b)search the person; and
(c)take possession of any information to which subsection (2) applies.

Duty of persons with knowledge of computer system or other data storage devices to assist access

(1)A person exercising a search power in any place or vehicle or in respect of any other thing may require a specified person to provide access information and other information or assistance that is reasonable and necessary to allow the person exercising the search power to access data held..

[Scuba_Steve]

Power of entry without warrant for inspection
(1)At any reasonable time a SS officer or a SS authorised person may enter and inspect a place without a warrant for the purpose of determining whether or not a person is complying with this Act, regulations made under it, or standards issued under it.
(1)A SS officer or a SS authorised person may stop a vehicle to exercise the power conferred by section 104.

Personal search power
Power to detain and search
(1)In the circumstances described in subsection (2), a SS OFFICER may—
(a)detain a person for as long as is reasonably necessary to carry out a search of that person; and
(b)search the person; and
(c)take possession of any information to which subsection (2) applies.

Duty of persons with knowledge of computer system or other data storage devices to assist access

(1)A person exercising a search power in any place or vehicle or in respect of any other thing may require a specified person to provide access information and other information or assistance that is reasonable and necessary to allow the person exercising the search power to access data held..



cool I get some pretty sweet search privileges there, shame I don't agree with the total (& illegal) disregard for our "foundation" laws

[BoristheBiter]

LOL do you really think the premises, car, and computer, they have the power to search belong to the cow !

Surely you are only pretending to be that stupid.... this is a leg pull surely...

Yes Boris, its the PEOPLE the law applies to.

The hint is in the word PERSON.

I have underlined it for you, hope it helps.

Power of entry without warrant for inspection
(1)At any reasonable time a SS officer or a SS authorised person may enter and inspect a place without a warrant for the purpose of determining whether or not a person is complying with this Act, regulations made under it, or standards issued under it.
(1)A SS officer or a SS authorised person may stop a vehicle to exercise the power conferred by section 104.

Personal search power
Power to detain and search
(1)In the circumstances described in subsection (2), a SS OFFICER may—
(a)detain a person for as long as is reasonably necessary to carry out a search of that person; and
(b)search the person; and
(c)take possession of any information to which subsection (2) applies.

Duty of persons with knowledge of computer system or other data storage devices to assist access

(1)A person exercising a search power in any place or vehicle or in respect of any other thing may require a specified person to provide access information and other information or assistance that is reasonable and necessary to allow the person exercising the search power to access data held..



But you are talking about the transportation of live animals. So therefore you are actually doing something, not nothing like you keep stating, that requires the correct paperwork and permits.
Just like if you are driving a car, or if you have been out for a days fishing, there are rules and reg's for all to follow and at some time you might be checked, just look at the weigh bridges and all the trucks that get stopped. if you don't want to get stopped don't do these things as it is a condition of these activities that you can be stopped at any time.

The argument you are trying to make is wrong.

Have you not been paying attention to the occupy Dunedin protest? The police will not move them on because it would be against there rights to stop them from protesting. Now how can you say our rights are being taken away.

[oneofsix]

But you are talking about the transportation of live animals. So therefore you are actually doing something, not nothing like you keep stating, that requires the correct paperwork and permits.
Just like if you are driving a car, or if you have been out for a days fishing, there are rules and reg's for all to follow and at some time you might be checked, just look at the weigh bridges and all the trucks that get stopped. if you don't want to get stopped don't do these things as it is a condition of these activities that you can be stopped at any time.

The argument you are trying to make is wrong.

Have you not been paying attention to the occupy Dunedin protest? The police will not move them on because it would be against there rights to stop them from protesting. Now how can you say our rights are being taken away.

you are not being cooked alive, the water temperature is just a bit warmer than it was before.

[scumdog]

you are not being cooked alive, the water temperature is just a bit warmer than it was before.


And has been doing so for a 100 years or so.

I'll very likely be dead before it get uncomfortable..

[oneofsix]

And has been doing so for a 100 years or so.

I'll very likely be dead before it get uncomfortable..

But that's the trick, it doesn't become uncomfortable, you just end up dead. The ones to make it uncomfortable are those that worry about the situation and protest it, they stir up the water and splash it all about. Think of the tadpoles.

[BoristheBiter]

you are not being cooked alive, the water temperature is just a bit warmer than it was before.

I think your heads been cooked.

[scumdog]

But that's the trick, it doesn't become uncomfortable, you just end up dead. The ones to make it uncomfortable are those that worry about the situation and protest it, they stir up the water and splash it all about. Think of the tadpoles.


I've had a vasectomy.

The tadpoles are dead.

[Ocean1]

I think your heads been cooked.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog

[BoristheBiter]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory

[mashman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory

http://cointrader.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/mr_magoo.jpg

[BoristheBiter]

[]

http://worddrum.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/danger-hippies1.jpg?w=332&h=400