HD has finally sorted the water cooling issue

[doc]

It seems that true to HD traditions after extensive research they have a solution to overcome issue with air cooled engines

[Paul in NZ]

Actually they are doing a lot of work on water cooled heads

[bsasuper]

Actually they are doing a lot of work on water cooled heads

No, Porsche is doing a lot of work on water cooled heads for HD

[FJRider]

A Flat-head might be seen as appropriate ... by some ... for HD ... :innocent:

[merv]

Offenhauser was a helluva engine in its day.

[FJRider]

Offenhauser was a helluva engine in its day.

So were the HD ones ... in their day ...

[HQfiend]

Offenhauser was a helluva engine in its day.

Offenhauser was a hell of an aftermarket parts manufacturer in it day! The heads, and manifold are Offy, the block will be ford!

[popelli]

So were the HD ones ... in their day ...

and which day was that ?

have a 26 year old evo on its third time around the clock and the bottom end hasn't been apart yet

thats one hell of an engine

[GrayWolf]

and which day was that ?

have a 26 year old evo on its third time around the clock and the bottom end hasn't been apart yet

thats one hell of an engine

3rd time round the clock? So ya right it's had THREE good days :laugh:

[bsasuper]

and which day was that ?

have a 26 year old evo on its third time around the clock and the bottom end hasn't been apart yet

thats one hell of an engine

Thats because AMF motorcycles (aka KAWASAKI) sorted out the evo engine just before it was sold back to HD

[Crasherfromwayback]

Thats because AMF motorcycles (aka KAWASAKI) sorted out the evo engine just before it was sold back to HD

Kawasaki? Whatchu been smoking?

[avgas]

Kawasaki? Whatchu been smoking?
I am with him on this.
AMF has been head-on with Kawasaki Co. in almost every industry. From motorbikes, to bicycles, to robotics.
So could you explain where they have co-operated?

[popelli]

Kawasaki? Whatchu been smoking?

no it was some obscure german company tied up with volkswagon and audi that pulled that motor together

[scumdog]

Thats because AMF motorcycles (aka KAWASAKI) sorted out the evo engine just before it was sold back to HD


Kawasaki make 10-pin bowling gear too????:shit:

[scumdog]

It seems that true to HD traditions after extensive research they have a solution to overcome issue with air cooled engines

Hmmm...8BA style heads but what did they do with the distributor???:blink:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Thats because AMF motorcycles (aka KAWASAKI) sorted out the evo engine just before it was sold back to HD

Hate to tell you this too mate...but an Evo is simply an aluminium top end on a Shovel, it was hardly a new engine. The twin cam is the first really new engine from HD in a very long time. It's a goodin too.

[bsasuper]

When HD went broke in the early 80's, it was purchased by kawasaki heavy industries through AMF, which at the time was actually owned by kawasaki heavy industries.HD was developing the evo engine but could not make it reliable.Kawasaki input through AMF motorcycles engineered the evo to make it work.Then the president of USA at the time Ronald Regan said its not on for the japs to own such an iconic american company, and a deal was struck to buy it back, with the new evo engine design of course, and the rest is history.............well a bit of history that most HD blokes deny.(dont get sore about, look how it changed HD)

[bsasuper]

Hate to tell you this too mate...but an Evo is simply an aluminium top end on a Shovel, it was hardly a new engine. The twin cam is the first really new engine from HD in a very long time. It's a goodin too.

Yep as I said, HD could not make it reliable.

[avgas]

When HD when broke in the early 80's, it was purchased by kawasaki heavy industries through AMF, which at the time was actually owned by kawasaki heavy industries.HD was developing the evo engine but could not make it reliable.Kawasaki input through AMF motorcycles engineered the evo to make it work.Then the president of USA at the time Ronald Regan said its not on for the japs to own such an iconic american company, and a deal was struck to buy it back, with the new evo engine design of course, and the rest is history.............well a bit of history that most HD blokes deny.
HD broke in 60's.......then bought and owned, and run buy AMF (which have nothing to do with KHI....and never have). Many people did not like the way AMF ran things because the bikes stayed the same and all they did was cut the work force.
HD was sold back to this workers/investors in 81.
Reagan did not save Harley by getting "it off the japs". He saved it by slapping 45% tax on all jap bikes over 700cc. Thus killing their competition. In 1983.....after it was owned by the worker/investors who took over in 81.

What next? your going to say the Area 51 crashed ship was Fuji Heavy Industries. Please check your history books before doing this again.

[Crasherfromwayback]

When HD went broke in the early 80's, it was purchased by kawasaki heavy industries through AMF, which at the time was actually owned by kawasaki heavy industries.HD was developing the evo engine but could not make it reliable.Kawasaki input through AMF motorcycles engineered the evo to make it work.Then the president of USA at the time Ronald Regan said its not on for the japs to own such an iconic american company, and a deal was struck to buy it back, with the new evo engine design of course, and the rest is history.............well a bit of history that most HD blokes deny.(dont get sore about, look how it changed HD)


Yep as I said, HD could not make it reliable.

You're kidding yourself.

[bsasuper]

HD broke in 60's.......then bought and owned, and run buy AMF (which have nothing to do with KHI....and never have). Many people did not like the way AMF ran things because the bikes stayed the same and all they did was cut the work force.
HD was sold back to this workers/investors in 81.
Reagan did not save Harley by getting "it off the japs". He saved it by slapping 45% tax on all jap bikes over 700cc. Thus killing their competition. In 1983.....after it was owned by the worker/investors who took over in 81.

What next? your going to say the Area 51 crashed ship was Fuji Heavy Industries. Please check your history books before doing this again.

This is how most people react, but its how it happened.Just in case you do not understand, KHI purchased AMF motorcycles for a very brief time, just enough to fully develop the evo engine,( it was only a few months) before a deal was brokered which involved the input from the US government(keeping jobs etc).(KHI got it for peanuts, but sold it back for a fortune).Take it as you like,but as I said most HD buffs dont like to admit it.

Area 51 crashed ship? you've been watching to much TV!

[AD345]

This is how most people react, but its how it happened.Just in case you do not understand, KHI purchased AMF motorcycles for a very brief time, just enough to fully develop the evo engine,( it was only a few months) before a deal was brokered which involved the input from the US government(keeping jobs etc).(KHI got it for peanuts, but sold it back for a fortune).Take it as you like,but as I said most HD buffs dont like to admit it.


Is there some sort of supporting evidence for this?

[FJRider]

Is there some sort of supporting evidence for this?

Nope ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Machine_and_Foundry

[AD345]

Nope ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Machine_and_Foundry

That's what I thought

[FJRider]

That's what I thought

Might just be a secret .... :yes: :innocent:

interesting reading here ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley-Davidson_Motor_Company

[scumdog]

When HD went broke in the early 80's, it was purchased by kawasaki heavy industries through AMF, which at the time was actually owned by kawasaki heavy industries.HD was developing the evo engine but could not make it reliable.Kawasaki input through AMF motorcycles engineered the evo to make it work.Then the president of USA at the time Ronald Regan said its not on for the japs to own such an iconic american company, and a deal was struck to buy it back, with the new evo engine design of course, and the rest is history.............well a bit of history that most HD blokes deny.(dont get sore about, look how it changed HD)

Troll???:blink:

Or?????<_<

[Drew]

Area 51 crashed ship? you've been watching to much TV!Seems to be more reliable a source than where ever you get your info from.

[avgas]

This is how most people react, but its how it happened.Just in case you do not understand, KHI purchased AMF motorcycles for a very brief time, just enough to fully develop the evo engine,( it was only a few months) before a deal was brokered which involved the input from the US government(keeping jobs etc).(KHI got it for peanuts, but sold it back for a fortune).Take it as you like,but as I said most HD buffs dont like to admit it.
Just to keep helping you dig the hole.
If this really did happen. Then why did Harley turn down advice, input and support from the Japanese manufactures in the 80's?
Also if there was a buddy relationship, Why was parts outsourcing (in the 90's) put to South America and China rather than Japan as ever other American company did?

[popelli]

Hate to tell you this too mate...but an Evo is simply an aluminium top end on a Shovel, it was hardly a new engine. The twin cam is the first really new engine from HD in a very long time. It's a goodin too.

the evo was a lot more than a redesigned top end, it was a great step forward in quality control

as for the twin cam being a good engine, harley have made many changes to it over the years, the first of them were complete dogs that sheared off the bolts holding the cam gear arrangement in place

twin cam is also a disposable motor, chankshaft is not rebuildable and is a throw away item, the larger 110" motors twist the cranks, cam followers rundirect in the blocks so when these wear out the cases are scrap (I beleive the aftermarket have come up with oversize followers)

the 96 twin cam was alsmost a complete redesign of the 88"

one of the main problems with the twin cam was they went from drawing board to production in under 12 months, by comparison the evo was road tested for 2 years (the flt and fxr frames were designed for evo motors and were an inch or two taller than required for shovel motors because the evo motor was already in design stage)

the twin cam has been around for 12 years and had numerous changes, the evo had very few this speaks volumes about which was the better engine

[Crasherfromwayback]

as for the twin cam being a good engine, harley have made many changes to it over the years, the first of them were complete dogs that sheared off the bolts holding the cam gear arrangement in place

twin cam is also a disposable motor, chankshaft is not rebuildable and is a throw away item, the larger 110" motors twist the cranks, cam followers rundirect in the blocks so when these wear out the cases are scrap (I beleive the aftermarket have come up with oversize followers)

the 96 twin cam was alsmost a complete redesign of the 88"

one of the main problems with the twin cam was they went from drawing board to production in under 12 months, by comparison the evo was road tested for 2 years (the flt and fxr frames were designed for evo motors and were an inch or two taller than required for shovel motors because the evo motor was already in design stage)

the twin cam has been around for 12 years and had numerous changes, the evo had very few this speaks volumes about which was the better engine

Hate to tell you this...but you're talking utter shit.

[GrayWolf]

This is how most people react, but its how it happened.Just in case you do not understand, KHI purchased AMF motorcycles for a very brief time, just enough to fully develop the evo engine,( it was only a few months) before a deal was brokered which involved the input from the US government(keeping jobs etc).(KHI got it for peanuts, but sold it back for a fortune).Take it as you like,but as I said most HD buffs dont like to admit it.

Area 51 crashed ship? you've been watching to much TV!

Well HD did open a production line in Japan prior to the war (WW2).. and the only japanese engine I can remember in HD's was around the time they were using the Aeromachhi brand as well, they had a small 2t motor developed by Yamaha in one of the bikes. The model was the SS250 2T and was developed from the yamaha DT250 motors.

Quote: (One of a quartet of new mid-size two-stroke singles based on a Yamaha design and introduced by Harley-Davidson in the mid-1970s, the SS-250 appeared in 1975 and was the largest street version offered. On/off-road models carried the SX prefix, and both bikes were eventually available in 175- and 250-cc sizes.)

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/1975-harley-davidson-ss-250.htm

[Flip]

The same reason one bike is called the Fat Boy after the Fat Man and the Tall Boy atomic bombs dropped on Japan. The early ones even had the same yellow stripe graphic that the Fat Man bomb had.

It was a way of thumbing you nose at the Japs and saying copy this!

[The Lone Rider]

The same reason one bike is called the Fat Boy after the Fat Man and the Tall Boy atomic bombs dropped on Japan. The early ones even had the same yellow stripe graphic that the Fat Man bomb had.

It was a way of thumbing you nose at the Japs and saying copy this!

The above is in fact... not true.

Myth.


1990 was also a fair way off World War 2.

[Crasherfromwayback]

The above is in fact... not true.

Myth.


1990 was also a fair way off World War 2.

Depends who you talk to. Maybe HD decided it wasn't quite PC enough and then said it was simply 'myth'.

[The Lone Rider]

Depends who you talk to. Maybe HD decided it wasn't quite PC enough and then said it was simply 'myth'.

Or people buy into fanciful conspiracy theories, when the plain and simple straight forward answer is in fact the truth.

It's Myth.

Silver looked good. The bike looked fatter in the front. The gold trim was elegant and made the new model stand out.

No doubt someone sitting a pub somewhere... 45 years after the war... said to his buddy next to him "Hey, wouldn't it be funny if that new Harley was named after those bombs that hit Japan." To which his mate said "Yeah hey! You're probably right".


Also, the use of HOG to refer to Harley is not particularly accurate. When and whereI grew up HOG did not mean Harley, but it seems to be a new phenomena since the owners group was formed.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/56879-Hogs-and-filtering?p=1348310#post1348310

[FJRider]

The same reason one bike is called the Fat Boy after the Fat Man and the Tall Boy atomic bombs dropped on Japan. The early ones even had the same yellow stripe graphic that the Fat Man bomb had.

It was a way of thumbing you nose at the Japs and saying copy this!

http://www.snopes.com/business/market/fatboy.asp

[Flip]

Well the Japs havent called a bike the Kamikazi yet, have they?

I still like my non PC story.

[The Lone Rider]

Well the Japs havent called a bike the Kamikazi yet, have they?

That would make a very awesome name for a chopper though.

Better than the Harley frame and body kit but Jap engine bike I want to build in the future (Hondarley)

[misterO]

Fat Man and the Tall Boy? I think you mean Fat Man and Little Boy. Unless perhaps you're referring to Havoc and Newsboy...

[ndepratt]

This is how most people react, but its how it happened.Just in case you do not understand, KHI purchased AMF motorcycles for a very brief time, just enough to fully develop the evo engine,( it was only a few months) before a deal was brokered which involved the input from the US government(keeping jobs etc).(KHI got it for peanuts, but sold it back for a fortune).Take it as you like,but as I said most HD buffs dont like to admit it.

Area 51 crashed ship? you've been watching to much TV!

Worst version of Harley history, sprinkled with a bit of terrible US history.

And Harley buffs don't accept your story because it's untrue.

[avgas]

Well the Japs havent called a bike the Kamikazi yet, have they?
I still like my non PC story.
Wouldn't surprise me if they wanted to keep the fat-boy name history hush-hush and act PC about it.
Look at the shit they got for their "Confederate Edition".

As for the Japs making a kamikazi. From recall Kawasaki originally wanted to call the Z1 the Zero. But I don't know how much of that is myth or 'myth' along the same sort of lines as Harley one I guess.

On the same note of war and the likes. Anyone find it funny that Porsche is working with Harley.......but the Japs weren't allowed.
Or that DKW designs became harley's.
Or that the Harley war-horse was a BMW.
Seems the American's didn't hate the Germs after all.

[avgas]

Worst version of Harley history, sprinkled with a bit of terrible US history.
And Harley buffs don't accept your story because it's untrue.

I'm not even a Harley buff. But respect where respect is due.
I personally think that Harley were morons in the 80's and 90's. They got offered help for nothing and turned it down. Their ego's were too big for them to be humble.

Not to mention the way they killed Buell.

But respect where respect is due. They are still around today.

[Drew]

Not to mention the way they killed Buell. Buell was not making the profit that hogs were, I'd have dropped it like a hot rock too. And have you seen what Eric Buell came up with when he wasn't forced to use a Harley motor? The dude is clearly out of his friggin mind.

[BIG DOUG]

Twin cam cranks are rebuildable it is getting the parts to rebuild them that is the problem but I have seen an A + B crank have there rods and crankpin changed to make one good crank,hell it is only an oversized two stroke crank.

[Big Dave]

Buell was not making the profit that hogs were, I'd have dropped it like a hot rock too. And have you seen what Eric Buell came up with when he wasn't forced to use a Harley motor? The dude is clearly out of his friggin mind.

^ Proof you shouldn't believe everything you read online.

[The Lone Rider]

Buell was not making the profit that hogs were

FYI

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/56879-Hogs-and-filtering?p=1348310#post1348310

[avgas]

Buell was not making the profit that hogs were, I'd have dropped it like a hot rock too. And have you seen what Eric Buell came up with when he wasn't forced to use a Harley motor? The dude is clearly out of his friggin mind.
Not denying any of that.
My comment was on "HOW" they killed Buell.
Not that Erik would have let it die any better. But the least they could have done is first get Erik out and if that didn't work sell the whole lot to someone else.

[Big Dave]

Not denying any of that.
My comment was on "HOW" they killed Buell.
Not that Erik would have let it die any better. But the least they could have done is first get Erik out and if that didn't work sell the whole lot to someone else.

Further proof.

[popelli]

Hate to tell you this...but you're talking utter shit.

really ?

evo has a far better reputation than any other motor hd ever made

[Crasherfromwayback]

really ?

evo has a far better reputation than any other motor hd ever made

From who? Evo owners? Bit like how Shovel owners tell all and sundry how the shovel is the best engine they've made...

[avgas]

Further proof.
Kinda sad ain't it.
Imagine the Ducati bought britten. Then shut down the factory and there were skips of britten's lying outside the factory.

Those skips would empty immediately.....but more importantly people all over the world would cry bloody murder.

I know that Mac Motorcycles begged and pleaded to buy the Blast motor tools and patents off Harley, now they are having to use a Yamaha watercooled.

[BIG DOUG]

Hey pete my shovel is bloody reliable,I'm riding it to the speedway gran prix in auckland how are you getting there(plane maybe?)lol

[misterO]

My first Harley was a 1977 FLH. Man, it looked fantastic and sounded great. It also vibrated every screw loose on every ride and sprayed a film of oil on my girlfriend's legs. She was not impressed. Unfortunately, looking good was all it was good for because more often than not it didn't go anywhere (which kinda sucked because I needed to ride it to get to work to make the money to pay it off). There ya go- an honest assessment from a (ex) shovelhead owner.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Hey pete my shovel is bloody reliable,I'm riding it to the speedway gran prix in auckland how are you getting there(plane maybe?)lol

Hey Doug. Did you ever find your number plate/tail light that vibrated off your Shovel and fucked off?:bleh:

[popelli]

From who? Evo owners? Bit like how Shovel owners tell all and sundry how the shovel is the best engine they've made...

the shovel did hold the land speed record for quite a while, hd offered a lot of money for somebody to go faster on an evo but nobody took them up on it.

for the info I have a pan, shovel iron head and a evo - evo is far and away the best motor for power and reliability, its is also bland and boring

also have a ducati for when I want to get somewhere quick, but my 255k evo is still more reliable and less problematic than a 5k ducati

[BIG DOUG]

It didn't vibrate off,it was an engineering design fault in my design that caused it to break and catapult it at a great rate of knots into the undergrowth.a redesigned part is now on there and has caused no probs since:bleh:

[Crasherfromwayback]

the shovel did hold the land speed record for quite a while, hd offered a lot of money for somebody to go faster on an evo but nobody took them up on it.

for the info I have a pan, shovel iron head and a evo - evo is far and away the best motor for power and reliability, its is also bland and boring

also have a ducati for when I want to get somewhere quick, but my 255k evo is still more reliable and less problematic than a 5k ducati

Yeah well the power pulses of an HD makes for good traction on salt.

I was in Nashville a few years ago at an HD Dealer conference and Willy G was saying that seeing as the twin cam was so bad they're going back to the knuckle.

[popelli]

I was in Nashville a few years ago at an HD Dealer conference and Willy G was saying that seeing as the twin cam was so bad they're going back to the knuckle.

If only that was true and they were going to reintroduce the knuckle, unfortunately there are emissions controls that effectively prevent this from happening and force the introduce of "clean" motors that are not necessalily an improvement over their predecessors

[Drew]

If only that was true and they were going to reintroduce the knuckle, unfortunately there are emissions controls that effectively prevent this from happening and force the introduce of "clean" motors that are not necessalily an improvement over their predecessors

Bare with me here, this will go somewhere...I think.

I know Harley riders aren't all about the power, (which has always left me wondering why almost none get left standard), but isn't it better to have a more efficient motor? The best way a manufacturer can reduce emissions, is to create a motor that burns as much of the fuel in the combustion chamber as possible.

Why don't Harley then chuck the cams up top? If ya think about it, using a very similar shaped head as the knuckle it is possible that at first glance most people wouldn't spot it.

[Scouse]

Why don't Harley then chuck the cams up top? If ya think about it, using a very similar shaped head as the knuckle it is possible that at first glance most people wouldn't spot it.They do in somthing called the Vrod.

[Flip]

Bare with me here, this will go somewhere...I think.

I know Harley riders aren't all about the power, (which has always left me wondering why almost none get left standard), but isn't it better to have a more efficient motor? The best way a manufacturer can reduce emissions, is to create a motor that burns as much of the fuel in the combustion chamber as possible.

Why don't Harley then chuck the cams up top? If ya think about it, using a very similar shaped head as the knuckle it is possible that at first glance most people wouldn't spot it.

It has more to do with compression ratio, combustion chamber shape and valve timing than the position of the cam. Overhead cam motors make more power because they have less reciprocating valve train mass and can rev faster without the valves bouncing.

Harley is a marketing leader because they listen to their customers and build the bikes the buyers want, unlike the Japs who build bikes then discount them until they sell. The market has said they want a air cooled push rod 45deg V twin with a single carb, design within this framework.

Buckets and shims need maintenance, my TC88 motor with hydraulic lifters has done 100,000 without any maintenence other than oil.

[The Lone Rider]

Harley is a marketing leader because they listen to their customers and build the bikes the buyers want, unlike the Japs who build bikes then discount them until they sell. The market has said they want a air cooled push rod 45deg V twin with a single carb, design within this framework

1. "Leaders" is arguable, but they certainly have a marketing team that can convince some people to buy

2. XV 650 line, if i recall, was the top selling cruiser of 2011 internationally - in gross income and sales numbers. Harley had bikes in position 3 4 and 5.

3. I suspect a great deal of the "market" you are referring to, consists of people who already own or have owned Harleys. And why not? They bought into the "harley thing", why would they not want more of the same.

The marketed image has more to do with Harley Davidson, than the bikes.


Edit -

To correct myself -

"In 2010, the 650 version [of the XVS] had the largest sales wordlwide in cruisers than any other of it's class."

It would seem the XVS 650 was what "the market" wanted that year.

[avgas]

"In 2010, the 650 version [of the XVS] had the largest sales wordlwide in cruisers than any other of it's class."

It would seem the XVS 650 was what "the market" wanted that year.
Not entirely true. You are comparing 1 Yamaha against a league of HD.

Here is another comparison. http://www.mcnews.com.au/NewsArchives/2011/Sales_quarter/Top_Cruisers.htm

Note also that even though HD only sell cruiser bikes......they were 5 in terms of sales in Aus http://www.mcnews.com.au/NewsArchives/2011/Sales_quarter/Total.htm

and in the same period the HD XLX was 9th highest selling bike http://www.mcnews.com.au/NewsArchives/2011/Sales_quarter/Top_Ten.htm

So they must be doing something right.

but this is all irrelevant when you take into consideration that the 'market' flip is talking about, and the 'market' you are talking about are actually completely different from each other. But that lesson will have to wait for another lesson.

[The Lone Rider]

Not entirely true. You are comparing 1 Yamaha against a league of HD.

Here is another comparison. http://www.mcnews.com.au/NewsArchives/2011/Sales_quarter/Top_Cruisers.htm

Note also that even though HD only sell cruiser bikes......they were 5 in terms of sales in Aus http://www.mcnews.com.au/NewsArchives/2011/Sales_quarter/Total.htm

and in the same period the HD XLX was 9th highest selling bike http://www.mcnews.com.au/NewsArchives/2011/Sales_quarter/Top_Ten.htm



When you, or I, find complete data on total sales compared to production level internationally - a more accurate picture could be formed. Total sales to production, I believe would be the only way to define which "Brand" is in more demand.

As it stands though - model to model, the XVS was the bike the market wanted. You only need the one model, XVS, to sell better than any Harley to show which model of bike was in demand. In 2010.

[popelli]

When you, or I, find complete data on total sales compared to production level internationally - a more accurate picture could be formed. Total sales to production, I believe would be the only way to define which "Brand" is in more demand.

As it stands though - model to model, the XVS was the bike the market wanted. You only need the one model, XVS, to sell better than any Harley to show which model of bike was in demand. In 2010.

what is the resale value of an XVS?

compare that to a harley and 9 times out of 10 the harley will win

and that is what the market really does want

[The Lone Rider]

what is the resale value of an XVS?

compare that to a harley and 9 times out of 10 the harley will win

and that is what the market really does want

Can you find some statistics that state that the purchase decisions in the cruiser market are driven by the want for resale value?

And if the market was driven by resale value, why did the XVS out sell any Harley model in 2010? Would not bikes with more 2nd hand value, be the ones that sold the most?

You can't claim the market wanted a particular Harley model because of it's resale value, when the XVS sold the most. Perhaps if data on total sales compared to production (and availability) where published, you may find Harley as a brand had the best (or most?) sales.

Proving it's because of resale value though?

I don't know about you, but I buy a bike to ride. Not to sell. Nor do I buy a bike with the intention or possibility of it being viewed as a veblen good.

[scumdog]

And if the market was driven by resale value, why did the XVS out sell any Harley model in 2010? Would not bikes with more 2nd hand value, be the ones that sold the most?

.

Probably because more people could afford to buy an XVS than could afford a Harley.

And not too many 650 Harleys out there to be bought.<_<

[Crasherfromwayback]

Probably because more people could afford to buy an XVS than could afford a Harley.

And not too many 650 Harleys out there to be bought.<_<

And it's their way of (nearly) looking to some like they have in fact got a Harley, because it's actually what they really desire to own.

[avgas]

As it stands though - model to model, the XVS was the bike the market wanted. You only need the one model, XVS, to sell better than any Harley to show which model of bike was in demand. In 2010.
Not entirely true again. If it were we would all own toyota corrolla's and and C50 scooter. After watching TV on our samsung set, sitting on IKEA furniture we would think about buying an XVS cruiser.

You see where I am coming from when I said "Market" does not equal 'market' as its a matter of perspective.

Long story short. Harley are what is called a "Low Level Product Leader" - they ride heavily on a brand, and they clearly segregate themselves and their designs from their competitors - this is why Harley asks for a premium and targets a completely different market from most of the customers. Yamaha's Cruiser division Star is what is called a borderline Operational Excellence/Customer Intimacy. Their market is not the premium purchaser, but the general consumer.
Imagine Shelby looking at the sales figures for the year, then saying "We're losing market share to people buying MX5's!!!!"
"Market" does not equal 'market' as its a matter of perspective. You need to compare apples with apples. Or in this case budget low cost 650 cruisers with budget low cost 650 cruisers.
What the mass market wants may not be what market Harley is tailoring too. They have a brand to maintain (unfortunately).

[The Lone Rider]

Not entirely true again. If it were we would all own toyota corrolla's and and C50 scooter. After watching TV on our samsung set, sitting on IKEA furniture we would think about buying an XVS cruiser.

You see where I am coming from when I said "Market" does not equal 'market' as its a matter of perspective.

Long story short. Harley are what is called a "Low Level Product Leader" - they ride heavily on a brand, and they clearly segregate themselves and their designs from their competitors - this is why Harley asks for a premium and targets a completely different market from most of the customers. Yamaha's Cruiser division Star is what is called a borderline Operational Excellence/Customer Intimacy. Their market is not the premium purchaser, but the general consumer.
Imagine Shelby looking at the sales figures for the year, then saying "We're losing market share to people buying MX5's!!!!"
"Market" does not equal 'market' as its a matter of perspective. You need to compare apples with apples. Or in this case budget low cost 650 cruisers with budget low cost 650 cruisers.
What the mass market wants may not be what market Harley is tailoring too. They have a brand to maintain (unfortunately).

Re:

Veblen good. I do understand your point on how a Yamaha is marketed to anyone who wants to ride, whereas the Harley is, for lack of a better description, marketed to the Harley aficionado. A "premium" item if you will.


We aren't talking sales over many years. As far as I understand you, you're suggesting I'm saying the high rate of sales of Corollas and C50s in total, mean there is a high demand for them [now].

The XVS statistic is for 2010 and 2010 bikes only. It is simply a result of sales showing the 2010 XVS sold the most in 2010. I was suggesting that result indicates the demand of the market for that year.

At peak sales when corollas and c50 dominated over competitors (however many years back that was), the demand for them was clearly there driving the market. When those sales dropped and something else was selling hot, it would seem to me the demand of the market has gone elsewhere. Corolla and c50 may have sold more over time then similar products but it doesn't imply the year(s) to come have a demand for them, even if they remain the highest selling vehicles.

To my understanding and conjecture.



And not too many 650 Harleys out there to be bought

Fortunately you only need a 650 XVS to out perform an 833 Harley. 2nd hand, they can also come at similar pricing. Although yes the sporty leans on the more expensive pricing.


And it's their way of (nearly) looking to some like they have in fact got a Harley, because it's actually what they really desire to own

I guess by the same token, most of what Harley put onto a track is a rip off of Japanese made bikes?

Tell you what, get a pen and paper and doodle a unique version of a cruiser that is "not harley looking".

You might find there are only so many ways to invent the wheel. Likewise, why a lot of the GP bikes share some rather big visual similarities.

What would the V-max and Diavel be classed as? Their sitting positions are somewhat similar to some cruisers, yet have some very strong "sports bike" lines and shape to it.

[Scouse]

What would the V-max and Diavel be classed as? Their sitting positions are somewhat similar to some cruisers, yet have some very strong "sports bike" lines and shape to it.your cluching at straws now matey and you are the gayest twat on this site no wonder that your name is "the lone rider" is your real name Nigel no mates (except for your chutny ferret buddies)

[Flip]

Show me some one with Yamaha tattoed on their arm and I will show you a million Harley tats.

Its really as simple as that, a Yamaha is a vehicle to ride to work on a Harley is a lifestyle choice. OK so the 10 people in the Yog dissagree with me but the 2.6 million in Hog do.

[Drew]

Show me some one with Yamaha tattoed on their arm and I will show you a million Harley tats.A strong argument, that Harley cater to the lowest common denominator indeed.

But they do well from the brand name, no question.

I don't see why though, they cannot at least try to make their motors efficient. I'm not saying they need to make a sports bike motor, just that they could half the fuel usage and make the same power/noise/looks as what they've got.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I don't see why though, they cannot at least try to make their motors efficient. I'm not saying they need to make a sports bike motor, just that they could half the fuel usage and make the same power/noise/looks as what they've got.

Hate to tell ya this Drew...but Harley's and Buells are really frugal.

[The Lone Rider]

Tattooing is slightly different that what bike you buy. In saying that, I believe Harley Davidson is the most tattooed emblem ever or somewhere in the top 10. Harley wins hands down in tattooing.

You may be right about Yamaha being ridden to work more, but what does it say about Harley owners if they only ride on a Sunday afternoon? If they predominately only ride on a Sunday I mean.

"Lifestyle" from owning a particular brand is the HD marketing.

It effects my lifestyle riding my bike to work every day, riding out of town every 2nd weekend, doing my shopping, going to pay bills, going over to friends places, checking in with my parole officer (joke) more than it would if I only pull out my bike in the weekend.

[Flip]

Hate to tell ya this Drew...but Harley's and Buells are really frugal.

My fat head uses 6 l/100km one up at legalish open road speeds and 6.5 two up.

Also whats the problem with folks getting into the whole Harley thing and having a bit of fun?

[TripleZee Dyno]

I was a mechanic at a Harley dealership when the Evo came out.
The Evo was a late shovel with a new top end
Just like a shovel was a pan with a new top end
and a pan was a knuckle with a new top end.
The main problem with the late shovels was a noisy top end, topend oil leaks, pistons, guides and valves that wore themselves out in short order, crap lifters and blocks
The Evo top end addressed most of these problems with the bonus of more power and even more power easily attained..
Of course the inevitable happened, people started using this power and problems started showing up.
Lots of bottom end problems, loose main bearing inserts, cracked and broken crankcases, broken crankshafts, porous castings, oil system problems, all these weren't uncommon. Everytime they got one thing fixed something else would shit itself. The Evo was in a continuous state of catchup break/fix repair throughout its whole life
20 yrs later I was a service manager at a HD dealership and tore my first twin cam down. Pretty much everything we whinged and moaned about as mechanics working on evos they had fixed by building a completely new engine and not just tarting up some old piece of crap, giving it a new name and pretending its the answer.
Sure the TC has had a few problems but in 10 yrs nowhere near what the Evo went through in its first 10 yrs.
Most of the problems the Evo had were due to inherent design flaws which not a lot could be done about because they were stuck with a basic design that originated with the Knucklehead.
The TC problems to date generally speaking aren't inherent design flaws but more manufacturing problems. eg twisting cranks on hi horsepower TC 96 based engines, no need to redesign the crank just put it together differently. Cam bearing problem, change the bearing.

I may not be an engineer or a technician, just a mechanic, but over the years I have gained a practical appreciation of what works and what doesn't, what is good design and what is poor design, from my point of view an Evo is a piece of junk compared to the TC
Before the TC came along the best engine Harley built was the Sportster

Another way of telling how reliable the TC is compared to Evos and Shovels
pre TC when I was a mechanic we always had broken (and I mean broken busted and sucked a kumara) engines to fix/rebuild
post TC in a dealership pretty much all the Technicians do is change oil and fit chrome things. Occasionally they will fit a set of cams or a big bore kit.
I actually felt sorry for them
At least the biggest customer complaint now is rust spots in their chrome rather than a broken crankcase letting all the oil out

PS I may think Knuckles, Pans, Shovels, Evos, are piles of junk, but they are cool piles of junk and I still like them.

[Crasherfromwayback]

My fat head uses 6 l/100km one up at legalish open road speeds and 6.5 two up.

Also whats the problem with folks getting into the whole Harley thing and having a bit of fun?

In my experience, the HD owners are the ones having the most fun. And lets face it...isn't that what it's all about!?

[White trash]

PS I may think Knuckles, Pans, Shovels, Evos, are piles of junk, but they are cool piles of junk and I still like them.

I like this post. Sums up Harley ownership in once sentence.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I may not be an engineer or a technician, just a mechanic, but over the years I have gained a practical appreciation of what works and what doesn't, what is good design and what is poor design, from my point of view an Evo is a piece of junk compared to the TC
Before the TC came along the best engine Harley built was the Sportster



PS I may think Knuckles, Pans, Shovels, Evos, are piles of junk, but they are cool piles of junk and I still like them.

Hear hear mate. I've been here for 18 years now, and anyone telling me how much better the Evo is compared to the TC needs to wipe their mouth with toilet paper.

[avgas]

At peak sales when corollas and c50 dominated over competitors (however many years back that was), the demand for them was clearly there driving the market. When those sales dropped and something else was selling hot, it would seem to me the demand of the market has gone elsewhere. Corolla and c50 may have sold more over time then similar products but it doesn't imply the year(s) to come have a demand for them, even if they remain the highest selling vehicles.
When did they peak. I imagine there are more Corolla's sold now than ever...........you have to be careful reading into what the stats say. We may have 100's of Mazda 3's and 6's here......but has the humble corolla dissappeared? Nope.

One of the biggest reality check I had was finding out that one of VW biggest selling vehicles was one I had never hear of before. And you know what was scarier......there was more of this model sold currently than Corolla's, 6(26), camry's.....
The car IS the VW Santana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Santana). Technically you could say the world wants box cars with poor technology.
But if that were the case - we all would own this or a volvo. But while we don't - China does.

So to put this into comparison. If you really thing the XV650 is the biggest selling cruiser.......google how many GN125's are sold.
As mentioned earlier. Harley are targeting people who want to own a harley. They are happy with that segmentation strategy. They don't have to extend the reach, they make good money and they remain a dominant brand name. This is the same as what Triumph have done also, but Triumph also like to 'test the waters' with models slightly outside this range.
I am a Yamaha fan, for the last 7 years I have only owned yamahas. Their strategy is quite broken though. They separate the bike division up and have to rename everything........STAR is their cruiser line.......and for many years it was shit. Its good to see with the XV650 and the V-Max they seemed to get the formula right for once. But even they would be wise to not believe they have "captured the market".

[The Lone Rider]

So to put this into comparison. If you really think the XV650 is the biggest selling cruiser.......google how many GN125's are sold.


GN125 aint a cruiser by anyone's definition.

The statistic was for the XV650 2010 model bikes sold during 2010, not for total number of XV650 sold since they were first released on the market compared to total sales of other bikes from other companies.

But I agree with the few posts above, about knuckles etc being junk but cool junk. We ran an article last year to celebrate the knuckleheads 75th anniversary, and I had some correspondence with Barry Wardlaw of Accurate Engineering. Great guy, and he absolutely loves knuckles.

And as Flip says, nothing wrong with "Harley people" enjoying their Harleys. They should, as should anyone buying any product would hopefully do.

[Dadpole]

GN125 aint a cruiser by anyone's definition.

Yes it is - a slow cruiser though. Also a farm bike... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/tourers/auction-314228127.htm

[The Lone Rider]

Yes it is - a slow cruiser though. Also a farm bike... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/tourers/auction-314228127.htm

According to that listing, it is a "Tourer"

[Dadpole]

Only for touring the farm. You cruise between farms....:innocent:

[BIG DOUG]

I ride my xr 1200 to work everyday,just about to click over 50k and the only thing that has gone wrong is the headlight wire broke just oil,filter tyres and brake pads.I am now just stripping down my 1951 panhead mtr and it is so like an evo it ain't funny apart from the dizzy,and being a 51 the crank is setup very much like a tc96 setup it is that similar and yea I love old shit and will make this as reliable as my shovel has been and it will get ridden all over the country as well.

[bsasuper]

There is a lot of history that has been buried, the kawasaki AMF connection is one of them, just like how the famous HUGO BOSS mens wear brand that also designed the NAZI uniforms, and Henry Ford (yes the car maker)was the first foregin Nazi member, all interesting stuff.