Ke125

[kel]

So I picked up an old Kawasaki KE125 for $55, its an old dual purpose machine supposedly developing 13.5 Hp at 7500 rpm, figured it could be a reasonable platform for a bucket mainly because of the rotary disk valve inlet.
Measured the port timing and found the following
Inlet 115/55 = 170 deg
Transfers 111 deg
Exhaust 163 deg
Rod length 96mm, big end pin 20mm/50mm
Piston pin to piston crown height 34mm
deck height 1.2mm
So that’s how it arrived but obviously that’s not how it could remain.

I read and absorbed the ESE thread which gave me the basis and links for a respectable engine design, I then acquired a copy of Professor Blairs ‘the basic design of 2 strokes which mostly went over my head but there was also some serious info I could apply to the build.
Settled on a target BMEP, peak RPM and calculated the following STA’s.

9.5 BAR 10750 RPM CONFIGURATION
from Blair calcs
power kW 21.96
exhaust area 0.0147
exhaust blow-down 0.00095
transfer area .01605-0.008
inlet time area 0.018

The disk diameter turn out to be a somewhat limiting factor but the required STA could be achieved using 225 deg duration, likewise the single exhaust port would hamper blow down.

After talking to TZ I decided to run with the Wiseco KX125 piston as they are readily available and had been proven in the ESE bikes. The connecting rod took a couple of attempts to get right (due to the TKRJ catalogue measurements for the KMX125 rod being incorrect) but in the end I settled on a DT125 rod. The cranks required modification thankfully this is exactly the sort of thing Gigglebutton is good at. Next step was to purchase port map analyzer software, found all the STA’s above were achievable - 128deg transfers, 196deg exhaust and 225deg inlet would do the trick.
Set to work cutting and porting, started with the exhaust port then moved on to the transfers which presented the first major design flaw, as standard the transfer ducts have no inner radius. I added epoxy to the inner wall to achieve what I hope is a reasonable curve then widened and changed the angels of the ports. The disk was the easiest mod although I chose not to go all the way to 225deg settling on 215deg for testing.
The carburetion is to be handled by a Keihin PWK and the ignition is a complete system off a KX125 (no money for a ignitech)

So after many months of being side tracked with other things I finally have this motor together so now its off to the dyno to find out if its been worth while!
252114252115252116252117

As a side note I told the wife I could complete this motor for a couple of hundred dollars, I failed miserably but have managed to hide most of the costs

[koba]

As a side note I told the wife I could complete this motor for a couple of hundred dollars, I failed miserably but have managed to hide most of the costs

As every grown man should.

Looks tidy. Promising. Bet you are keen to see the dyno results.

[Taz]

I used to race a KE100 back when 100cc 2T's were the max you could race.

[Rick 52]

Great work Kel !! I hope it works as well as it looks ..

[Clivoris]

Hope it goes like a rocket man.

[gav]

Nice, is it running as a 125 or a 100?

[kel]

Its definitely a 125 Gav.
I dont expect to see the 29 crank hp that the calcs suggest as I've had to make a couple of 'just get it going' compromises, end goal is a kart track useable 24hp (50% more power than my FXR).
20+ years ago I also had a KE/KH100 Taz, port timing was copied straight off the G31M racer.

[grantman]

Hi Kel
Sounds like your $55+ engine could be a real threat!

What frame etc are you going to use ?

Cheers
Grant

[F5 Dave]

. . . had to make a couple of 'just get it going' compromises, . . ..
Boy I know what you mean there. my current 100 is full of them.

[jasonu]

Hi Kel
Sounds like your $55+ engine could be a real threat!

What frame etc are you going to use ?

Cheers
Grant

10characters

[kel]

Just like the one above.
Tried to buy Brens RS125 which had been modified to take the KE engine but some wealthy farmer from the tropical south west offered more than I could match, Husaberg?
Grant, haven't seen you for months, are you coming to the track next weekend?

[F5 Dave]

Hmm, I thought Max bought Bren's

[jasonu]

Hmm, I thought Max bought Bren's

Is that the one that had a video posted on KB with a skinhead rideing it up a driveway? If yes why was it parted out? It looked like a nicely put together machine.

[F5 Dave]

Yeah it was well put together. I think he realised he was just too big for it. I think 'skinhead' has some funny overtures, not everyones hair style is by choice. He's a top bloke.

He's next racing the new one this weekend in an RG250 chassis with RS125 running gear, tank etc at Ruapuna. I wouldn't bet against him.

[Kickaha]

I think he realised he was just too big for it.

You calling Bren fat? :whistle:

[Arronduke]

Looking good Kel... regarding Grant... hmmm no racing for Grant....He has more pressing things like working around the house. He still wears his leathers to remind him of his old racing days but they have a lace apron saftey pined to the front and the ass cut out were he likes to be spanked...!
:spanking::spanking::spanking::spanking::spanking: :spanking::spanking::spanking::spanking

Anyway... dam the motor looks good..... thats lots of grunt... will it have a 12-24HP power band over 500rpm?
If you need a frame... I might be able to dig up my old CG frame... perfect.

Oh and to add... thats way to may calculations... my beer munted brain hurt just reading that stuff.
If it helps the only thing I know about 2 strokes ... is BANG....

[Moooools]

Just like the one above.
Tried to buy Brens RS125 which had been modified to take the KE engine but some wealthy farmer from the tropical south west offered more than I could match, Husaberg?
Grant, haven't seen you for months, are you coming to the track next weekend?

So you would be the bastard that made me pay out some serious dosh. Tsk tsk.

It just so happens i have that modified frame and swingarm (without the rest) sitting unused up in auckland now. It looks like you have the rest. Make me a nice offer and it is all yours.

[F5 Dave]

You calling Bren fat? :whistle:
I wouldn't advise that course of action.

[husaberg]

Just like the one above.
Tried to buy Brens RS125 which had been modified to take the KE engine but some wealthy farmer from the tropical south west offered more than I could match, Husaberg?
Grant, haven't seen you for months, are you coming to the track next weekend?

Husaberg is now a retired farmer or more likely just tired.
He also has kids and a lady so is asset rich and cash poor.

He also missed on the frame he was helping his child with his homework and missed the end of the Auction.

I do like the look of your project though and I consider it a better starting point that the GP125.

It also does seem to have nice close ratio for a trail bike.

The inlet also appears less shrouded by the crankwheels than with the gp125.
What is the Disk diameter of the KE125?
The gp125 is ...mm its in the ESE thread somewhere, f'ed if I can find it.

I would however be interested to see how power calculated by the sim would change with a 54x54mm configuration?

[bucketracer]

What is the Disk diameter of the KE125?
The gp125 is ...mm its in the ESE thread somewhere, f'ed if I can find it.

Measuring inside a spare GP cover the disk looks to be 115mm diameter.

252379

Std 25mm GP125 cover on the left TeeZees 32mm ported one on the right.

252380

TeeZee asks, what is the std size of the KE inlet port and the disk size?

[kel]

I do like the look of your project though and I consider it a better starting point that the GP125.
What is the Disk diameter of the KE125?
As I mentioned above the disk is a limiting factor, the diametre is a mere 106 mm. With 225 deg duration and a 50 deg port its good for about 30 crank horse power.
The GP125 is better than the KE in most respect the exception being the clutch and gearbox.
Before someone asks 'why didnt you buy a GP125', I picked up the original bike for $55 and a spare motor for $100, not too many GP125's around for that kind of money at least not with ESE buying them all up!

[husaberg]

As I mentioned above the disk is a limiting factor, the diametre is a mere 106 mm. With 225 deg duration and a 50 deg port its good for about 30 crank horse power.
The GP125 is better than the KE in most respect the exception being the clutch and gearbox.
Before someone asks 'why didnt you buy a GP125', I picked up the original bike for $55 and a spare motor for $100, not too many GP125's around for that kind of money at least not with ESE buying them all up!

Well I i'd be buggered.
Why is it then the disk appears to shroud the crank wheels less?
Is it the angle of the pic or are the crank wheels smaller diameter.

Strangely the deck height on the crankcase also appears lower as well.

Did i see a spacer plate in the pics as well.

[kel]

Well I i'd be buggered.
Why is it then the disk appears to shroud the crank wheels less?
Is it the angle of the pic or are the crank wheels smaller diameter.

Strangely the deck height on the crankcase also appears lower as well.

Did i see a spacer plate in the pics as well.

Could just be the angle of the picture plus the fact that the modified GP inlet is a lot larger so will exaggerate things further.
Yes there is a small spacer plate as the KE doesnt have a large case volume. I was initially going to run a longer rod so I could increase the volume further but figured with the compromised transfer ducts a big suck pipe would probably short circuit the charge. Its try it and see stage, I have the option of another 5 or 10mm length in the rod if needed. DT rods come in 100, 105 and 110mm.

[husaberg]

Could just be the angle of the picture plus the fact that the modified GP inlet is a lot larger so will exaggerate things further.
Yes there is a small spacer plate as the KE doesnt have a large case volume. I was initially going to run a longer rod so I could increase the volume further but figured with the compromised transfer ducts a big suck pipe would probably short circuit the charge. Its try it and see stage, I have the option of another 5 or 10mm length in the rod if needed. DT rods come in 100, 105 and 110mm.

Wasn't the main benefit of using a longer rod to increase the dwell, so the ports are effectively open longer? as well as the effective angle on the piston at TDC.
There is a lot of other rod length options in between as well.

[kel]

Wasn't the main benefit of using a longer rod to increase the dwell, so the ports are effectively open longer? as well as the effective angle on the piston at TDC.


There are several benefits to running a longer rod the main one with our engines being to increase the volume under the piston that is if the rest of the engine is designed to work with this. A properly designed pipe needs a large volume to draw from but the transfer design needs to exert enough control to limit short circuiting hence adding epoxy to the transfer ducts and changing the angles. The larger volume also introduces advantages in the rotary valve timing but I do wonder about the weaker carb signal off pipe? The days of the small case volume have well and truly passed I just wish I had greater confidence in my transfer design to fully exploit this.

[husaberg]

There are several benefits to running a longer rod the main one with our engines being to increase the volume under the piston that is if the rest of the engine is designed to work with this. A properly designed pipe needs a large volume to draw from but the transfer design needs to exert enough control to limit short circuiting hence adding epoxy to the transfer ducts and changing the angles. The larger volume also introduces advantages in the rotary valve timing but I do wonder about the weaker carb signal off pipe? The days of the small case volume have well and truly passed I just wish I had greater confidence in my transfer design to fully exploit this.

Interestingly Wob mentioned something about small case volumes for tighter tracks. Large for longer relatively speaking.
Carburation will i guess be tricky with your intake duration anyway.

Does the software you have, do gearchange cascades?

Going back to the inlet pic. If TZ's intake is larger wouldn't you expect his to be less shrouded? The angle could be deceptive but it is still looks odd.
Is the KE125 updraft?

[grantman]

Hi Kel
I will be at the track on Sunday
Yep..... its been way too long

I'm looking forward to catching up with you & the guys

Arron wont be there as he will be Carol singing

Cheers
Grant

[kel]

Going back to the inlet pic. If TZ's intake is larger wouldn't you expect his to be less shrouded? The angle could be deceptive but it is still looks odd.
Is the KE125 updraft?

You got it the port tapers up with a slight kick at the crank wheel. The other motor which has a larger inlet has been straightened like the GP125 so as to maintain the width height ratio. :whistle:

[RMS eng]

As I mentioned above the disk is a limiting factor, the diametre is a mere 106 mm. With 225 deg duration and a 50 deg port its good for about 30 crank horse power.
The GP125 is better than the KE in most respect the exception being the clutch and gearbox.
Before someone asks 'why didnt you buy a GP125', I picked up the original bike for $55 and a spare motor for $100, not too many GP125's around for that kind of money at least not with ESE buying them all up!

come on a KE motor is worth 5 times what a GP100-125 motor is worth,KE motors 12 + GP wins GP100-125 GP wins big fat 0

[husaberg]

You got it the port tapers up with a slight kick at the crank wheel. The other motor which has a larger inlet has been straightened like the GP125 so as to maintain the width height ratio. :whistle:

No understandy what other engine? Do you mean TZ's suzuki gp125 has been shaped to look like a er... Suzuki Gp125

[kel]

No understandy what other engine? Do you mean TZ's suzuki gp125 has been shaped to look like a er... Suzuki Gp125

No the other KE motor (actually its a KH) which was a spare until I decided a water cooled motor was needed for the big/longer races. No pictures of that one until it debuts. Need to get Gigglebutton focused on F4 or it could be some time off yet.

Dyno testing for the 125 is scheduled for early Jan, cant wait to see how it goes.

[kel]

So I figure everyone’s sitting on the edge of their seats awaiting an update ...

Truth is I burnt up my dyno time (and break time) on the FXR. In part I was trying to get it ready to sell as there’s an RS125 chassis out there that I want, plus I wanted to see if it could be built into something competitive. Flat slide carb and performance cams were installed combining to lift the power from its measly 16hp to a touch over 20hp, a 25% increase! Have repacked the muffler to try and quieten the megaphone exhaust (didn’t work to well but I did try) and had wets installed on to the spare rims ready for Taumaranui. One criticism of my FXR is that it didn’t track true around corners, Arrons 68 is the only other FXR that Ive ridden, I was immediately faster on it and shocked at how much better it cornered. Turns out my wheels weren’t aligned, no wonder the rear didn’t track the front like it should :facepalm:. So now I have a faster better handling FXR which with a bit of tart up (and a couple of reasonable results) will be ready to sell.
KE125 coming :soon:

[husaberg]

So I figure everyone’s sitting on the edge of their seats awaiting an update ...

Truth is I burnt up my dyno time (and break time) on the FXR. In part I was trying to get it ready to sell as there’s an RS125 chassis out there that I want, plus I wanted to see if it could be built into something competitive. Flat slide carb and performance cams were installed combining to lift the power from its measly 16hp to a touch over 20hp, a 25% increase! Have repacked the muffler to try and quieten the megaphone exhaust (didn’t work to well but I did try) and had wets installed on to the spare rims ready for Taumaranui. One criticism of my FXR is that it didn’t track true around corners, Arrons 68 is the only other FXR that Ive ridden, I was immediately faster on it and shocked at how much better it cornered. Turns out my wheels weren’t aligned, no wonder the rear didn’t track the front like it should :facepalm:. So now I have a faster better handling FXR which with a bit of tart up (and a couple of reasonable results) will be ready to sell.
KE125 coming :soon:

ill bite why no pictures of the lc cooled one.
Jason has one its on his avatar so why is yours soooo secret?
One of the most successful tuners of production racers in the 50-60s in the UK use to put his wheels offset on purpose, but still in line with each other as they steered better that way. Sid Lawton. Can't remember why?

[F5 Dave]

it was a silly Norton thing I think, crank weight offset to the side or some ridiculous thing blah blah silly things.

[husaberg]

it was a silly Norton thing I think, crank weight offset to the side or some ridiculous thing blah blah silly things.

Yes but i think he used to do it to all the bikes as well? I might have to read it again. He divulged as few of the other rule bender mods as well. It seem the more tight the rules the more people cheat.

[kel]

ill bite why no pictures of the lc cooled one.
Jason has one its on his avatar so why is yours soooo secret?

Because its not an RG/KE hybrid, thats sooo 90's. Single exhaust port :nya:
The wifes a bit pissed at the suggestion of another bucket, something about "why dont you just finish one bike" tried to explain that no bike is ever finished, I followed up with "the boy child is now in school, time you got a job woman" didn't go over as well as I'd anticipated, thankfully its warm in the shed.

[F5 Dave]

Yes but i think he used to do it to all the bikes as well? I might have to read it again. He divulged as few of the other rule bender mods as well. It seem the more tight the rules the more people cheat. I think they're std like that, silly bodge, don't care enough to research it.

[husaberg]

I think they're std like that, silly bodge, don't care enough to research it.

Too late I ready found it.
According to the article all the the 650ss Norton and indeed all the British big twins were apparently allegedly crap on fast right handlers, because of the alternator and clutch being on the same side. which makes sense because as a rule the Jappa arn't. So they moved the wheels over and it went from Tank slapping on fast right handers with Phil Read on it and nearly not ridding it to steering nearly as good as a Manx Norton. The frame was not bent and was replaced and rejigged as well prior which didn't fix the problem.BTW don't do this on a FXR as they don't have spoked wheels for a start and there clutch is on the other side.

[Buckets4Me]

come on a KE motor is worth 5 times what a GP100-125 motor is worth,KE motors 12 + GP wins GP100-125 GP wins big fat 0

ye but how many times in the last few years have we seen one on the podium :bleh: at least the gp made a 3rd place showing a few years back (and only 14 h/p at the time) :niceone:

thats like compairing an MV Agusta to a yamaha superbike. havent seen an MV win recently

[RMS eng]

ye but how many times in the last few years have we seen one on the podium :bleh: at least the gp made a 3rd place showing a few years back (and only 14 h/p at the time) :niceone:

thats like compairing an MV Agusta to a yamaha superbike. havent seen an MV win recently

3rd place is not a win ,last time a KE won a GP a taupo the best lap was over 2 seconds faster than than any of the GP125s and 29 HP two strokes last year in the dry,and the main thing is KE has 6 gears not 1970s 5 speed.

[husaberg]

ye but how many times in the last few years have we seen one on the podium :bleh: at least the gp made a 3rd place showing a few years back (and only 14 h/p at the time) :niceone:

thats like compairing an MV Agusta to a yamaha superbike. havent seen an MV win recently

Dangerous territory Buckets4me.

Overall how many have Yamaha won even considering the real MV pulled out in 1980 odd
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} </style> <![endif]--> Between 1948 and 1976 MV Agusta motorcycles had won over 3000 races and 63 World Championships overall.
I doubt if you added up Yamahas overall they would be at the same number off Roadracing championships now even if you put in WSB.Remember MV Augusta were a small motorcycle company compared to Yamaha, dedicated yes, but small.

[Buckets4Me]

Dangerous territory Buckets4me.

might have been dangerous territory 50 YEARS ago about the same time they limited the number of gears a bike could have :lol:

so how many years ago was the last ke on the podium ?
and or won a GP ?


and i dont remember to many 29h/p bike at the gp last year (or that it was dry)

[Buckets4Me]

Dangerous territory Buckets4me.

I doubt if you added up Yamahas overall they would be at the same number off Roadracing championships now even if you put in WSB.Remember MV Augusta were a small motorcycle company compared to Yamaha, dedicated yes, but small.

so after yamaha brought in a decent watercooled 2 stroke and had some time to develop it we dont hear of to many wins my the mighty MV
post 1976 what did they achieve ?:headbang: (the old man rolles over and a younger racer takes over) :clap:


would realy like to se a few of these KE engined buckets racing up this way

[Buckets4Me]

3rd place is not a win ,
but was better than any KE that year :eek::bleh::doh:

who said that some cleaver bustard hadn't put a 6 speed in a gp:Oi: (ok ok couldn't find anything even close)

[husaberg]

might have been dangerous territory 50 YEARS ago about the same time they limited the number of gears a bike could have :lol:
)

so you are as always right after MV they stopped racing they didn't win much.:wait:
perhaps we could continue the argument when Yamaha achieves the same level of success as MV Agusta aye. How many years would that be 20-30.

That lack of success MV had between 76 and 80 is a bit irrelevant considering even Honda couldn't turn the NR into a bike that would beat the two strokes.:nono:

[Buckets4Me]

so you are as always right after MV they stopped racing they didn't win much.:wait:

so the argument goes if it dosn't race anymore it's still the best ? even if it did come out of retirement and show how much faster everything has got !:clap:
I'm still waiting for an example of a KE engine doing better than the CURRENT gp's

OR more to the point having a poke at RMS for saying how much better his bike use to be than mine :girlfight: even thow he stoped racing before I started

[husaberg]

so the argument goes if it doesn't race anymore it's still the best ? even if it did come out or retirement and show how much faster everything has got !:clap:




and i dont remember to many 29h/p bike at the gp last year (or that it was dry)
Not that it matters but while MV were winning which was pretty much most of the classes between1950-1970 yes, years ago. MV rarely had the most Hp esp in latter years up to 76 . They were the best combination of handling and brakes preparation reliability plus riders is often overlooked.
It was not all about HP as Honda and Hailwood learned. Yamaha really only came good in the major classes when their chassis design improved to match there engine.
Thanks to Cal Caruthers and more importantly Rob North. Remember when Spencer beat Roberts with the 3 it had a lot less hp at least 20-30 but it was a better handler.

The fact that they (MV) pulled out of racing does not diminish the fact they are still far more successful than Yamaha is even now. It is a silly person who ignores history.

[jasonu]

Because its not an RG/KE hybrid, thats sooo 90's. Single exhaust port :nya:

Really, are you sure about that???

[kel]

Really, are you sure about that???

Yep quite sure. Theres just not enough meat around the exhaust port to add auxillaries

[jasonu]

Yep quite sure. Theres just not enough meat around the exhaust port to add auxillaries

What about milling away the water jacket, filling in the necessary area with weld, replaceing the water jacket and hey presto, more meat.
Hypothetically speaking of course...

[kel]

Damn buckets4me its starting to sound like an us against them and Ive become one of them. What did I do? what did I do? Please let me back on the dyno we could put a GP badge on the KE, no one needs to know, no one needs to know :weep:

[kel]

What about milling away the water jacket, filling in the necessary area with weld, replaceing the water jacket and hey presto, more meat.
Hypothetically speaking of course...

Hypothetically speaking I was measuring up your motor just a couple of months ago, no auxiliaries. I have a picture somewhere.
The RG exhaust port casting is painfully small. Figured the sleeve might let go trying to weld in the amount of material required to fit auxiliares, but then as ali welding is your thing I guess it could be possible. Would need to fill the secondary transfers ducts as they're way to big and redirect the transfer streams. I could send over one of my RG barrels for exhaust port surgery, combine that with my revised transfer layout and we could use it to show case the rebirth of the RG/KE hybrid :wari:

Cast me out at your peril buckets4me

[Buckets4Me]

Cast me out at your peril buckets4me

not realy I quite like the fact that Mike Green has more H/P than TZ (keeps him going)

no one up this way has done any real work on a smoker apart from TZ and Chambers. Mike being the other fast 2 stroke (but that was an 8 year build)
Neil dosn't count (sorry wobbly)

so someone name 4 New Fast 2 strokes (other than team E.S.E)
I'll start you off
Rick52 with 19 h/p

[husaberg]

Damn buckets4me its starting to sound like an us against them and Ive become one of them. What did I do? what did I do? Please let me back on the dyno we could put a GP badge on the KE, no one needs to know, no one needs to know :weep:


How's the ke125 going

[jasonu]

not realy I quite like the fact that Mike Green has more H/P than TZ (keeps him going)

no one up this way has done any real work on a smoker apart from TZ and Chambers. Mike being the other fast 2 stroke (but that was an 8 year build)
Neil dosn't count (sorry wobbly)

so someone name 4 New Fast 2 strokes (other than team E.S.E)
I'll start you off
Rick52 with 19 h/p

I don't think there are 4 New Fast 2 strokes up norf to name if you leave out Neil (Nigel???). Greens and ESE's bikes have the HP but have yet to be proven 'fast' IMO.

I will add Dave Dips bikes as one of them, the 85cc (24hp so I am told) with Nathaniel riding ran well at Taupo a year or so ago.

[Buckets4Me]

Greens and ESE's bikes have the HP but have yet to be proven 'fast' IMO.

AV on Chambers bike can finish in the top 3 30s around MtWellington
Dave M on TZ's ran in the top 2 with only Karl M beating him
how much more do you nead (have you ever beaten them ?)

Mike hasn't run anywhere near as hard as he did the day he KO'd himself (and I dont blame him I need to get up and go to work on mondays as well)


how many people over 60 race buckets as fast as TZ ?

now if Kel can get his up and running and dosn't hurt himself on the way

and show me a race where a KE has beaten TZ ?

[koba]

and show me a race where a KE has beaten TZ ?

You and bucketracer do get a bit antagonistic at times.




OK, its a KV but similar deal.

Was TZ racing that day? I seem to remember you guys all being there.

This is an OLD Style bike, built by one of the Steadmans. When Dave had it out of retirement for this race it was running piss-poor and the archaic slicks were giving him a hell of a time.

Race Results.
http://www.marktime.co.nz/rfiles/081228/RACE09B.HTM
http://www.marktime.co.nz/rfiles/081228/RACE18B.HTM

Practice results.
http://www.marktime.co.nz/rfiles/081228/PRAC09B.HTM
http://www.marktime.co.nz/rfiles/081228/PRAC01B.HTM

It was an old style frame and even had a funky paint-job that may have been fashionable before some of us were born!

[speedpro]

After sitting round the campfire and having a few beers with a couple of Steadmans it seems that we may see #96 again this year. Possibly in the hands of the owners nephew. It would be REALLY interesting to see how it compares to the newer buckets. I suspect it will be competitive as it makes reasonable hp, something in the low-mid 20s, and handles sweet with good brakes.

[Buckets4Me]

You and bucketracer do get a bit antagonistic at times.




OK, its a KV but similar deal.

Was TZ racing that day? I seem to remember you guys all being there.


yep 4th 6th 4th 4th I think

didn't that kv blow up :rolleyes: it was fast (well ridden) .11 seconds faster than TZ in the first practice
and TZ had an old standard gp frame back then posibably 18" tt900 road tyres to( use to make him seasick )
any other takers (something RMS was riding maby ?) didn't think so and yes I'm out to antagonise today
I'm not allowed to take the boat out and wont get to race this weekend either :argue:

[F5 Dave]

You and bucketracer do get a bit antagonistic at times.




OK, its a KV but similar deal.

Was TZ racing that day? I seem to remember you guys all being there.

This is an OLD Style bike, built by one of the Steadmans. When Dave had it out of retirement for this race it was running piss-poor and the archaic slicks were giving him a hell of a time.

Race Results.
http://www.marktime.co.nz/rfiles/081228/RACE09B.HTM
http://www.marktime.co.nz/rfiles/081228/RACE18B.HTM

Practice results.
http://www.marktime.co.nz/rfiles/081228/PRAC09B.HTM
http://www.marktime.co.nz/rfiles/081228/PRAC01B.HTM

It was an old style frame and even had a funky paint-job that may have been fashionable before some of us were born!

um, yeah about that. . . I'd been thrown by the KV the - slicks weren't up to it on that patchy ground. That was actually me on my 50:msn-wink:. yep I got 2nd in a F4 race. bit of a larf, don't think I could do that again, things have moved on.

[F5 Dave]

y. . .
any other takers (something RMS was riding maby ?) didn't think so and yes I'm out to antagonise today
I'm not allowed to take the boat out and wont get to race this weekend either :argue:
That useless old man hasn't raced a bucket for years. How about we cajole him to come out for a race & see how he does. You choose a bike for him to ride, anything really, & we'll place wagers on whether he can beat you or not.

I'll slide a quiet 20 on Chris.

[jasonu]

I'll slide a quiet 20 on Chris.

Ditto to that.

[kel]

That useless old man hasn't raced a bucket for years. How about we cajole him to come out for a race & see how he does. You choose a bike for him to ride, anything really, & we'll place wagers on whether he can beat you or not.


I offered him a run on the FXR about a year ago, didnt seem to interested. Offer still stands although the FXR would probably offer an unfair advantage for the duel.

Jason am I sending a cylinder over?

[jasonu]

I offered him a run on the FXR about a year ago, didnt seem to interested. Offer still stands although the FXR would probably offer an unfair advantage for the duel.

Jason am I sending a cylinder over?

PM if you are serious mate

[RMS eng]

PM if you are serious mate

to old maybe.i just like talking shit with you guys on this site,sold my boat today so might get my RG50 going or just buy another old dirt bike.

[TZ350]

to old maybe.i just like talking shit with you guys on this site,sold my boat today so might get my RG50 going or just buy another old dirt bike.

No no get your RG50 going again F5 needs more riders and you would be up at the sharp end, F5 is starting to make a bit of a revival. If you get your RG going again and bring it along I will finish mine and ride it too.

[jasonu]

to old maybe.i just like talking shit with you guys on this site,sold my boat today so might get my RG50 going or just buy another old dirt bike.

Fuck that! Concentrate on finishing my bike! (for free)

[kel]

Decided I had under engineered this so made some minor porting changes. Made a port rubbing and scanned into portmap analyser. No secrets here ...

256107

So now Im looking at 10 bar at 11k, 32hp at the crank. (minus the back yard engineering loses)
Also decided I needed something a little smarter on the ignition front so have hooked up a TPS and have ordered an ignitech. Now I just need to find a power jet kit for the PWK.

[husaberg]

Also decided I needed something a little smarter on the ignition front so have hooked up a TPS and have ordered an ignitech. Now I just need to find a power jet kit for the PWK.


Electric or manual power Jet Kel
What did you do for the TPS?

[kel]

Electric or manual power Jet Kel
What did you do for the TPS?

Electric of course. The TPS is off an RGV250 so the same as what TZ is going to use on the GP125's. Received an email today saying the ignitechs have arrived so I guess I have no excuses for not having this running, ah thats right the time thing plus the fact Im now trying to fit it into an RS frame, didnt realise Id have to cut the fins and machine the cases :(. Oh well will get it done after the GP.
Roll on the GP and move over diesels your time is up, Ive been watching the Andrew Stroud video of Taupo and Im feeling dangerous (to myself) :lol:.

[husaberg]

Electric of course. The TPS is off an RGV250 so the same as what TZ is going to use on the GP125's. Received an email today saying the ignitechs have arrived so I guess I have no excuses for not having this running, ah thats right the time thing plus the fact Im now trying to fit it into an RS frame, didnt realise Id have to cut the fins and machine the cases :(. Oh well will get it done after the GP.
Roll on the GP and move over diesels your time is up, Ive been watching the Andrew Stroud video of Taupo and Im feeling dangerous (to myself) :lol:.

Didn't you have a KX125 carb might not have been you 36mm with TPS and electric PJ.They had them for two years only. Yow has one as does TZ and Kobas i think or Bert?
Could be sleeved to suit if to big.PS they are shorter as well. Akunar does a std power jet in all sizes, real cheap not sure how they stack up against OKO TZ has quality wise though
Speedpro probably has one as well in hindsight.

[speedpro]

Speedpro probably has one as well in hindsight.

Yep.

Wiring is all there, just got to plug the carb in and tune the Ignitech and get the jets right. Trouble is that it's straight unlike the 34mm downdraught carb I currently have on the bike. It ends up on a bit of an angle. I have had an idea on how to fix that whilst maintaining a straight inlet.

[F5 Dave]

yeah. forego the straight inlet & try it out, then can make some less angled manifolds & see if it makes that much diff. Well that's what I'm doing.

[Arronduke]

Kel,

Looking good.
You have made some progress with this....

I am looking forward to seeing it running.
Next meeting for me will be the April meeting.

[Henk]

Next meeting for me will be the April meeting.

Get some of your mates organised and come to Te Puke you poofter.

[kel]

Roll on the GP and move over diesels your time is up, Ive been watching the Andrew Stroud video of Taupo and Im feeling dangerous (to myself) :lol:.

Well the GP didnt quite go to plan but second in the North Island series was pleasing, got to experience some great new tracks and had a blast.

BACK TO THE KE
In all honesty Ive done nothing with the motor, with the exception of an expansion chamber it really just needs firing up and dialing in, the holdup has been the chassis.
I managed to secure Brendans RS125 frame which had been modified for the KE motor, figured it was too good an opportunity to pass up as I had a bunch of RS parts anyways (shock, swingarm, tank etc). The choice of chassis was more than validated when going head to head on the FXR against Rick on his RS around Kaitoke, he'd turn the bike in tight while I was having to sweep around the turns sliding like crazy trying to keep up. Its been a slow process finding and securing the RS parts but Im there now and just waiting for the last bits to turn up, might be waiting a while as the only economical shipping for the wheels was sea freight. Am hoping to have the bike together for the first round of the Auckland series in July but its dependent on whether the wheels get here in time.
My to do list
drag the chassis out from under my desk!
expansion chamber design and build - was going to use Blairs calcs but as I've managed to squirrel a few dollars away I might pay the man to design it
Install motor into chassis - needs the rear engine mount of the cases machined down
Wait for wheels to turn up
Dial in the motor and ignition on the dyno
Ride the wheels off it!

[kel]

Well I draged the RS out from under the desk
265121

But then I got side tracked with the old girl
265122
Thought I should give it a quick tidy up as a potential buyer is due to come have look at it, plus it hadn't been run since Easter when it was crashed at Kaitoke. Cleaned up easy enough but when I took it for a quick run up the road it was refusing to rev out. Was running fine at Kaitoke :scratch:
Hopefully draining the carb and some new fuel will solve the problem. Would rather be working on the RS/KE!

[kel]

Well the cases are back. Had to strip the good engine and the spare to get the rear engine mounts milled to fit the RS chassis. Giggles organised this and while he was at it he welded up the spare cases to take the water cooled cylinder, what a good guy :niceone:
No sign of my parts from Japan which is a bit of a downer, but on the positive TZ350 is going to let me out on the beast for the first round of the Auckland series :banana:
Oh, and a very happy 50th birthday Gigglebutton!

[Gigglebutton]

Well the cases are back. Had to strip the good engine and the spare to get the rear engine mounts milled to fit the RS chassis. Giggles organised this and while he was at it he welded up the spare cases to take the water cooled cylinder, what a good guy :niceone:
No sign of my parts from Japan which is a bit of a downer, but on the positive TZ350 is going to let me out on the beast for the first round of the Auckland series :banana:
Oh, and a very happy 50th birthday Gigglebutton!

No Probs
Thanks Kel :)

[cotswold]

Oh, and a very happy 50th birthday Gigglebutton![/QUOTE]


And from me :niceone::niceone:

[Gigglebutton]

Oh, and a very happy 50th birthday Gigglebutton!


And from me :niceone::niceone:[/QUOTE]

Thanks for all the help on my motor boys :)

[kel]

OK so the motor is in the frame. Required a bit of grinding on the head, cylinder and cases but its in. Now to wire up the ignitech.
267738

[kel]

on the positive TZ350 is going to let me out on the beast for the first round of the Auckland series :banana:

Some problems in the morning meant we had to start from the back row for the points races. That didnt matter to much as the beast blasted me through to 3rd, and we were only .9 sec off 2nd at the end. Feeling quitely confident for race two was a mistake as I blew the start and when your starting from the back row that aint going to work out well. By the time Id caught upto the 4th place rider the front 3 were long gone so just settled in for an easy 4th place. Not to bad considering its been over a year since I raced clockwise at Mt Wellington (but then I was on the mighty beast). Nice work TZ the bike is turning better :clap: now if we can just sort coming back on the throttle ...

[husaberg]

Looks great must pull finger........

[husaberg]

Shit Sorry Kel i think i killed your thread :nono:

[kel]

Shit Sorry Kel i think i killed your thread :nono:

I'm still broken, cant do much with just one hand. Probably could manage to put it together with some help but seems little point at the moment. Next year!

[kel]

Out of the cast today and into a splint :banana:
but needing an MRI :(.
Was offered a cortizone injection to the shoulder but these just mask the injury (I think?).
On the plus side I've decided to give up crashing, at least for a while.

[cotswold]

Out of the cast today and into a splint :banana:
but needing an MRI :(.
Was offered a cortizone injection to the shoulder but these just mask the injury (I think?).
On the plus side I've decided to give up crashing, at least for a while.

I also gave up on crashing but crashing never gives up on anyone.. Hope you're fit and mobile soon

[jasonu]

Out of the cast today and into a splint :banana:
but needing an MRI :(.
Was offered a cortizone injection to the shoulder but these just mask the injury (I think?).
On the plus side I've decided to give up crashing, at least for a while.

Get the cortizone shot. I fucked up my rotator cuff and had 2 shots 3 months apart. They do 'mask' the injury but in my case allowed me to gradually start wider movement of the joint that the pain (without the shot) prevented me doing. Do it mate, nothing to loose and a lot to gain.

[speedpro]

I had a cortizone shot into the cartilage next to a permanently screwed up scaphoid. The wrist was like new for most of a week. I never realised what a pain it was until it wasn't. I say go for it as well.

[kel]

The KERS lives! :banana:
The bike survived the driveway test, no video as the wife claimed she couldnt push and video at the same time. And they say women can multitask :lol:
Have some dyno time booked for tomorrow, assuming it holds together Im hoping to see 24hp at the wheel. And if not, no problem I have a heap of excuses at the ready.

Plus Im race fit, well B grade race fit anyway. Hope to get a few laps in this weekend, but not on the KERS.

[chrisc]

Shit yeah! Will be great to see you out there again. Bring her for show and tell anyway

[kel]

So first run on the dyno didn’t go entirely to plan.
I had made a header pipe to cylinder adapter/extension to allow for finding the optimum length i.e. start out long then shorten it until we found the right peak power point. Ended up working best at the shortest length. It was worth testing but really just cost time.
First run was way rich, leaned it off and hit 22hp at 8500rpm. Figured it was too lean as power dropped at 10000 so richened up again but no more power and it wasn’t pulling smoothly. Played with needle and header as above but still refusing to rev on. It should have been making peak power at around 11k so rather frustrating. It was becoming obvious that optimum setup was going to take some work to find. We were about to start playing with the ignition curve as it had been running a flat 20 deg advance, and then the compression dropped!
The piston to bore always felt a bit tight but the Kart shop that honed it stated it was fine, Im thinking as its got hot and the ring has stuck, the giant flames blowing out the carb would tend to back this up. Oh well had always planned to strip it down after running in to check the piston …
So 22hp at 8500 is too high, but if the motor can manage that it should easily make 24hp higher in the rev range. More work to do but its looking promising.

Big thanks to the ESE boys especially TZ350 :2thumbsup

[kel]

Had a quick look at Bells book last night. My KERS power output looks strikingly similar to his RM125C test mule which makes 123psi (BMEP) in standard trim, the KERS is closer to 130psi. Bell notes "an engine like this is easy to tune for mucher higher outputs, without knocking the mid-range about too much" Have to admit I wasn't buying TZ350 comments last night about how good it was looking, but now Im a believer! A fat 24hp is on its way.

[kel]

hmm, so looks like we sucked too many fumes. Stripped the motor, its was swimming in two stroke oil but otherwise nothing out of order.
Theres an area below the boost port were the hone marks have all ready been worn away, same below and just above the exhaust port.
278954
And theres an odd 2mm polished strip on the exhaust port side of the piston just under the ring land.
278953
Anyone know what this is due to? More importantly why would it have developed so quickly (the motors not yet run in)

[speedpro]

I've seen near identical, but worse, marks on Gary's MB engine, aircooled with a stock fresh MB100 piston. My moter also developed similar wear but I'm using a KT100 piston. Gary's motor actually got hard to turn over and sounded like it was seizing. All it did was polish up the areas the same as yours. His also had a rub mark on the piston on the intake side each side of central. They did not line up with the intake port bridges. I used emery tape and rubbed them off leaving a cross hatch pattern on the piston. It's been running OK for a while since I did it.

[speedpro]

Straight cut primary gear? stock??

Is that a crankcase stuffer I see tucked down beside the crank?

[RMS eng]

Straight cut primary gear? stock??

Is that a crankcase stuffer I see tucked down beside the crank?

KE an KH use the same clutch as the 74-76 KX125 i have one.and that is a plate to hold the bearing in,looks like a bad hone job.

[kel]

Straight cut primary gear? stock??

Yep, stock straight cuts. As Chris points out the KE shares parts with the old KX125, guess that cats out of the bag.

[husaberg]

Yep, stock straight cuts. As Chris points out the KE shares parts with the old KX125, guess that cats out of the bag.

That's not even mentioning the multitude of internal gear ratios available:bleh:

[kel]

So corrected the inlet timing and had the exhaust pipe properly fitted up (thanks Giggles) and took the KERS back to the dyno. Things started to fall into place tonight as the motor peaked at 26hp :woohoo:

[Gigglebutton]

26hp F/%$k You need to come round for pies on Saturday smoko

[kel]

Here we go, the product of last nights dyno time :D. This wasn't the best high rpm run, we hope to pick that back up with a few more adjustments.

[cotswold]

Here we go, the product of last nights dyno time :D. This wasn't the best high rpm run, we hope to pick that back up with a few more adjustments.

thats looking sweet,

[kel]

Well the power just keeps building, what to do?

[cotswold]

Well the power just keeps building, what to do?

Stop before it becomes addictive

[prorad]

ill bite why no pictures of the lc cooled one.
Jason has one its on his avatar so why is yours soooo secret?
One of the most successful tuners of production racers in the 50-60s in the UK use to put his wheels offset on purpose, but still in line with each other as they steered better that way. Sid Lawton. Can't remember why?

The wheels were in line! I worked for Syd Lawton at the time, and was involved in sorting the problem out. Syd discovered a discrepancy in hands off steering, when the bike would veer to one side. Measured up in the workshop we found the wheels were parallel but not on the same centre lines. The decision was made to adjust the spokes to pull the rims over. The error was corrected by splitting the difference between the two wheels, i.e pulling the front rim to the left, and the rear to the right. The total error was in the region of 1/8 inch.

[husaberg]

The wheels were in line! I worked for Syd Lawton at the time, and was involved in sorting the problem out. Syd discovered a discrepancy in hands off steering, when the bike would veer to one side. Measured up in the workshop we found the wheels were parallel but not on the same centre lines. The decision was made to adjust the spokes to pull the rims over. The error was corrected by splitting the difference between the two wheels, i.e pulling the front rim to the left, and the rear to the right. The total error was in the region of 1/8 inch.

I will bow to your Superior knowledge.......

in my defense i wasn't of course suggesting the wheel weren't inline with each other when modded but offset from the centerline to improve the steering (likely because the Triumph engine has a lot of heavy spinning things Clutch sprockets chain etc on one side. Can you confirm this?

[kel]

Well I have to admit the motors output is everything I hoped for, and in all honesty what I expected.
The motor design was based on time angle area calculations. Time angle area sets the foundation for how well the motor will breathe and enables matching of port timings. Jennings proposed time angle area back in the early seventies (possibly earlier) but missed blowdown area. The concept of blowdown area was introduced by Blair, at least it was Blairs book "design and simulation of 2 stroke engines" that brought this to my attention. The first dyno run with the KERS was done with a reserved inlet timing in the hope of adding some midrange punch that would benefit kart track racing, it didnt! So I went back to the maths and set the timing to match the other ports. The calculations used for this motor suggested 32 crank hp at 11k, I assumed 15% loses which would be 27.2 rear wheel hp and we have 27.3 at 11.5k.
Of course its not as simple as just time angle area. We are incredibly fortunate with the internet age to have access to fantastic 2 stroke minds such as Jan Thiel, Frits Overmars, Wobbly, etc, etc and of course all the learnings of the ESE boys made available through the epic ESE thread. With the input and advice of these fantastic people it becomes possible for almost anyone to modify something as basic as a farm bike into a (modestly) high power 2 stroke motor. A dyno and an experienced operator helps too ;).
Big thanks to everyone that has helped both directly and indirectly to deliver this motor, especially TZ350 :drinknsin: Now to get it on to the track :woohoo:

[Bert]

Well I have to admit the motors output is everything I hoped for, and in all honesty what I expected.
The motor design was based on time angle area calculations. Time angle area sets the foundation for how well the motor will breathe and enables matching of port timings. Jennings proposed time angle area back in the early seventies (possibly earlier) but missed blowdown area. The concept of blowdown area was introduced by Blair, at least it was Blairs book "design and simulation of 2 stroke engines" that brought this to my attention. The first dyno run with the KERS was done with a reserved inlet timing in the hope of adding some midrange punch that would benefit kart track racing, it didnt! So I went back to the maths and set the timing to match the other ports. The calculations used for this motor suggested 32 crank hp at 11k, I assumed 15% loses which would be 27.2 rear wheel hp and we have 27.3 at 11.5k.
Of course its not as simple as just time angle area. We are incredibly fortunate with the internet age to have access to fantastic 2 stroke minds such as Jan Thiel, Frits Overmars, Wobbly, etc, etc and of course all the learnings of the ESE boys made available through the epic ESE thread. With the input and advice of these fantastic people it becomes possible for almost anyone to modify something as basic as a farm bike into a (modestly) high power 2 stroke motor. A dyno and an experienced operator helps too ;).
Big thanks to everyone that has helped both directly and indirectly to deliver this motor, especially TZ350 :drinknsin: Now to get it on to the track :woohoo:

Well done Kel (and the rest of the people behind the scene).
Very impressive and I can't wait to see this out on the track.
:2thumbsup

[Buckets4Me]

Well the power just keeps building, what to do?

so a new Beast is born :clap: this one looks tame and friendly ish

[chrisc]

Nice one kel and co! I'm very much looking forward to seeing this run soon :headbang:

[kel]

this one looks tame and friendly ish

I dont know about friendly but the tame manner in which the power is made is due to peak torque occuring 2000rpm before peak hp, the falling torque curve should make for a very useable motor. Funny thing is its a result of one of the last "just get it built" compromises. The head has a wide squish and a deep (by todays standards) combustion chamber. It was planned to have this welded up and re-machined but I like the result so much I think I'll leave it. Maybe we'll build a corrected head for faster tracks.
We have added another 500rpm over rev through power jet adjustment, it now hits the rev limiter while still making good hp.
Im finished with the motor until after the GP, it maybe running rich but 27+ hp with a 4.5k spread should be enough to scare a few 4 strokes (Im not even going to mention the weight advantage of bike and rider)

[jasonu]

I dont know about friendly but the tame manner in which the power is made is due to peak torque occuring 2000rpm before peak hp, the falling torque curve should make for a very useable motor. Funny thing is its a result of one of the last "just get it built" compromises. The head has a wide squish and a deep (by todays standards) combustion chamber. It was planned to have this welded up and re-machined but I like the result so much I think I'll leave it. Maybe we'll build a corrected head for faster tracks.
We have added another 500rpm over rev through power jet adjustment, it now hits the rev limiter while still making good hp.
Im finished with the motor until after the GP, it maybe running rich but 27+ hp with a 4.5k spread should be enough to scare a few 4 strokes (Im not even going to mention the weight advantage of bike and rider)

How about a few pictures.

[kel]

How about a few pictures.

do you mean dyno graph pic? Was a page back. Dont have a copy of the later runs.

279845

The bike itself isnt overly pretty to look at, not a matching colour to be found

[Rick 52]

Congratulation Kel, that is fantastic! All that hard work is going to bring you some big smiles once on the track..

[F5 Dave]

You don't know how depressing this is. To get this straight away is phenomenal. Good work you bstd!

[jasonu]

do you mean dyno graph pic? Was a page back. Dont have a copy of the later runs.


No I was refering to pix of the actual bike.
What carb are you using?

[kel]

Shortened and taper bored OKO 24mm with power jet. Still needs the adjustable air correction mod but seems to work OK.

[kel]

How about a few pictures.

Here you go.
Have added riser clip on bars to try and lessen the pressure on the wrist

[koba]

Here you go.
Have added riser clip on bars to try and lessen the pressure on the wrist

That is one photo.

Post more, please!

[kel]

That is one photo.

Post more, please!

No. You just want to see the secret bits like the speed shifter, launch control, double power jet etc :doh:

[jasonu]

Here you go.
Have added riser clip on bars to try and lessen the pressure on the wrist

Looks good mate.

[koba]

No. You just want to see the secret bits like the speed shifter, launch control, double power jet etc :doh:

Are they anodised?

[F5 Dave]

Now time for serious nyloning metal bits.

[kel]

Now time for serious nyloning metal bits.

Under control (although Im not entirely sure what to do about the silencer). Have raided Mulfords scrap bin, not sure what grade plastic I've ended up with but its a bloody hard (for plastic) black stuff. Will machine up and fit this week.

I need a clutch lever with a micro switch fitted to enable launch control, any suggestions?

[cotswold]

under control (although im not entirely sure what to do about the silencer). Have raided mulfords scrap bin, not sure what grade plastic i've ended up with but its a bloody hard (for plastic) black stuff. Will machine up and fit this week.

I need a clutch lever with a micro switch fitted to enable launch control, any suggestions?

cvt.......

[kel]

cvt.......

Just standard launch control. Motor pins at selected revs, launch curve kicks in as clutch is released. At the moment it works off the push buttons on the left bar but needs the clutch switch ...

[F5 Dave]

There are a few bikes with that switch these days, like my Tiger, but probably heaps of Jap stuff.

Std RS has mufler much higher on a flimsy bracket & just pushes out of way. As it is you will need a strap or it will break.

I'm about to weld some small plates on the SW below the axle to bolt bungs to.

[crazy man]

Just standard launch control. Motor pins at selected revs, launch curve kicks in as clutch is released. At the moment it works off the push buttons on the left bar but needs the clutch switch ...will the launch control bet the bro off the mark (-; .. nice bike are you going to race it at the gp?

[jasonu]

There are a few bikes with that switch these days, like my Tiger, but probably heaps of Jap stuff.

Std RS has mufler much higher on a flimsy bracket & just pushes out of way. As it is you will need a strap or it will break.

I'm about to weld some small plates on the SW below the axle to bolt bungs to.

Wasn't it you that bolted the muffler stay to the swingarm?:facepalm:

[kel]

will the launch control bet the bro off the mark (-; .. nice bike are you going to race it at the gp?

Yes, because I have more hp and fancy electronics.
I assumed this is the same system that Regan has been using as he gets that bike off the line like a rocket!
GP? Maybe, not sure I can be bothered ;)

[jasonu]

GP? Maybe, not sure the bike or rider will be up to it.

Fixed...10char

[kel]

Fixed...10char
:Oi:

If I was any more ready :apumpin: When is it?

[crazy man]

Yes, because I have more hp and fancy electronics.
I assumed this is the same system that Regan has been using as he gets that bike off the line like a rocket!
GP? Maybe, not sure I can be bothered ;)regan not got it but the bike has some real good torque ...hp just abit down . dyno time after the last north round . dont like playing around when things are going good . gp would be good if you can make it but guess im not doing it . will be there for a play on the day though

[F5 Dave]

Wasn't it you that bolted the muffler stay to the swingarm?:facepalm:


Eh? no not me, never seen that one.:wacko: RG50 ones were easy as the footpeg hanger mount was provided.

But if you want to sling some mud, I'll have to smear you by association & mention the Watercooled DS 80 with a water inlet but no outlet ;)

[koba]

Rider aids are pretty gay.

[speedpro]

Rider aids are pretty gay.

. . . . . not in the spirit of bucket racing, ruining it for everyone else, chequebook racing yada yada yada etc etc. :Pokey:

[Pumba]

. . . . . not in the spirit of bucket racing, ruining it for everyone else, chequebook racing yada yada yada etc etc. :Pokey:

Ban them all I say. We are on the slippery slope to Traction Control and ABS. Thin end of the wedge:sweatdrop

[koba]

Just standard launch control. Motor pins at selected revs, launch curve kicks in as clutch is released. At the moment it works off the push buttons on the left bar but needs the clutch switch ...

Does it need a wind up to charge it before you go? :shifty:

[speedpro]

like CDI ignitions and transistor assisted ignitions. Where will it end? May as well get used to the idea I reckon. I remember getting a bit of grief when I "built" my first CDI which ran off the points on my AC50. Back in the good old days, before bucket racing got ruined. :chase:

[kel]

I need a clutch lever with a micro switch fitted to enable launch control

Got one, $10 off trademe. Even has a mounting for a rearview mirror
280101

Koba, theres a map selection swtch, a couple of flashing lights and a rev counter as well. Unfortunately the only anodised bits were a couple of bolts and the fancy levers. I dont need the levers now, would look good on your old school bike though.

Mike who's racing your bike this year, whoever it is Im sure that they'd like the launch control interface. 2 strokes leading into the first corner just the way it should be!

[husaberg]

Got one, $10 off trademe. Even has a mounting for a rearview mirror
280101

Cheque book racer. i borrowed mine out of a wreaked Subaru.;)
It was even kind enough to through in some led's and a couple of relays and some clips and a few HT bolts.
If i can be arsed i will show you the Works Kawa set up.
Use the mirror mount to locate your shift light assuming it isn't going in the heads up display in your helmet that is.:lol:

[kel]

assuming it isn;t going in the heads up display in your helmet that is.

Yeah bluetooth for the heads up, but we shouldn't mention that as it will just get him started all over again

[jasonu]

Eh? no not me, never seen that one.:wacko: RG50 ones were easy as the footpeg hanger mount was provided.

But if you want to sling some mud, I'll have to smear you by association & mention the Watercooled DS 80 with a water inlet but no outlet ;)

It did have both in and outlets. One in the head and the other in the cases at the stock locations so not sure what you were smokeing at that time.

[epsilonk]

Well I have to admit the motors output is everything I hoped for, and in all honesty what I expected.
The motor design was based on time angle area calculations. Time angle area sets the foundation for how well the motor will breathe and enables matching of port timings. Jennings proposed time angle area back in the early seventies (possibly earlier) but missed blowdown area. The concept of blowdown area was introduced by Blair, at least it was Blairs book "design and simulation of 2 stroke engines" that brought this to my attention. The first dyno run with the KERS was done with a reserved inlet timing in the hope of adding some midrange punch that would benefit kart track racing, it didnt! So I went back to the maths and set the timing to match the other ports. The calculations used for this motor suggested 32 crank hp at 11k, I assumed 15% loses which would be 27.2 rear wheel hp and we have 27.3 at 11.5k.
Of course its not as simple as just time angle area. We are incredibly fortunate with the internet age to have access to fantastic 2 stroke minds such as Jan Thiel, Frits Overmars, Wobbly, etc, etc and of course all the learnings of the ESE boys made available through the epic ESE thread. With the input and advice of these fantastic people it becomes possible for almost anyone to modify something as basic as a farm bike into a (modestly) high power 2 stroke motor. A dyno and an experienced operator helps too ;).
Big thanks to everyone that has helped both directly and indirectly to deliver this motor, especially TZ350 :drinknsin: Now to get it on to the track :woohoo:

Is this the ESE thread that you are referring to? http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?highlight=ese

I have an old 1981 KE125 that I would like to breath some life into...

[TZ350]

Is this the ESE thread that you are referring to? http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?highlight=ese

I have an old 1981 KE125 that I would like to breath some life into...

Yes thats the thread, maybe try starting around page 500.

[kel]

Well the bike finally made it to the track.
There was a problem in the part throttle settings which was making the bike a pain in the butt to start, after far too much pushing the bike around the pits I finally found a setting which allowed it to start and keep running, then the spark magically disappeared! Thankfully Max has some serious fault finding skills and before long we up and going again. Unfortunately the rain then came so more waiting. Finally I decided it was dry enough to try the bike on the track ...
Bloody hell I don’t know where to start, sure I was playing it up by sitting back in the seat but the power stands as the power came on out of the final turn were just too much fun, the crazy stopping power and the speed the bike turned into corners was incredible. I honestly couldn't stop grinning from ear to ear. Sure it still needs some dialling in but it's seriously cool and a mile ahead of the old FXR, I can't wait to race this thing!

[richban]

I honestly couldn't stop grinning from ear to ear. Sure it still needs some dialling in but it's seriously cool and a mile ahead of the old FXR, I can't wait to race this thing!

Good to hear. That's how I feel about my bike now. Well except for the power wheelies.:no: Look forward to seeing some footage of you back on track. Don't forget to make it look pretty as well as go good.

[kel]

The bike survived its first race day and I survived my first day racing in 8 months.
Lots of minor issue as was expected, the battery going flat during the points races topping it off :facepalm: Bike felt good and I felt I was starting to get a feel for it.
So another meeting in 3 weeks. Need to sort the gearing, front forks, and get another battery, a dose of harden up for the rider and we just maybe able to get involved at the pointy end.
Think I might have caught the race bug again :woohoo:

[kel]

Looking at the last post it would seem I got ahead of myself with the racing bug comment.
While I haven't got myself back to the track I have continued to develop the bike (its becoming quite the dyno racer :lol:)
Have ditched the Kawasaki dished piston and have replaced with a more typical domed piston, also Re-profiled the head. This will aid cooling and give a touch more top end. Street test suggests power wise everything is good, but the thing still gets very hot.
I've also started on the A motor. This will have a slightly different crank build, still using a DT125 rod kit but a longer one this time, plus it gets a RGV250 big end bearing as it drops straight in. The transfers will be a direct copy of the last motor but with more timing. The exhaust port is the big change as the new cylinder is now a triple porter. Time angle area calcs show this new layout is good for another 5hp at the crank. I need to come up with a decent air cooled head that can be adapted to the cylinder as the standard unit is not up to the task, perhaps something like this
287772
74kx125 works racer

[husaberg]

Looking at the last post it would seem I got ahead of myself with the racing bug comment.
While I haven't got myself back to the track I have continued to develop the bike (its becoming quite the dyno racer :lol:)
Have ditched the Kawasaki dished piston and have replaced with a more typical domed piston, also Re-profiled the head. This will aid cooling and give a touch more top end. Street test suggests power wise everything is good, but the thing still gets very hot.
I've also started on the A motor. This will have a slightly different crank build, still using a DT125 rod kit but a longer one this time, plus it gets a RGV250 big end bearing as it drops straight in. The transfers will be a direct copy of the last motor but with more timing. The exhaust port is the big change as the new cylinder is now a triple porter. Time angle area calcs show this new layout is good for another 5hp at the crank. I need to come up with a decent air cooled head that can be adapted to the cylinder as the standard unit is not up to the task, perhaps something like this
287772
74kx125 works racer


Ask fletner and get one for Rob at the same time

[cotswold]

[QUOTE=kel;1130614941]
I have continued to develop the bike
I have ditched the Racing and have replaced it with becoming quite the dyno racer. Everything is good, but the thing still gets very hot.
I need to come up with a decent air cooled head that can be adapted to the cylinder as the standard unit is not up to the task.

Kel, could you not get much bigger fans on the dyno to force more air across your original head ?

At least yours goes

[T.W.R]

. I need to come up with a decent air cooled head that can be adapted to the cylinder as the standard unit is not up to the task, perhaps something like this

74kx125 works racer


Try some of the VintageMX sites to see if someone has a DG Performance radial fin head :niceone: Goldies used to be the thing for MX before water cooling arrived

[Moooools]

perhaps something like this
287772
74kx125 works racer

Could you fabricate one? I don't know about the thermal conductivity of an Ali weld, but I imagine it is close to the rest of the material.

Just make some fins and a simple jig, and design it so one it is possible to weld every fin with a decent bead. Leave yourself a couple of datum surfaces to clock it up and machine it afterwards. May need to do something about vibration to stop the welds cracking. I have seen down to 0.8mm Ali welded nicely so heaps of 1-2mm fins could be a possibility.

The other place there are big gains to be made on bikes is in proper ducting to the head. The aim is not to make high pressure in front but to drop the pressure behind the cooling fins, the air pressure in front never gets much higher than atmosphere as it just creates a blockage and tries to take a path of lesser resistance. So creating smooth ducts that run out to low pressure areas (under the seat or behind the rider or his legs - think stagnant air following the rider) will be the best way to get more air through the fins. And yes you want as much air as possible going through them. And no it doesn't need some time to 'soak up the heat'. (The common things that get tossed around when it comes to cooling.)

Increasing the mass air flow over the fins is probably going to be easier than sourcing some funky head. Make a duct, go to the track with some wool tufts out the back and see what happens to the tufts and to engine temp and try again. If the tufts are going the wrong way and engine temp is up you then your outlet is at a higher pressure than your inlet.

[kel]

Finally got the KE back onto the dyno.
The motor has had a top end rebuild - new and improved piston, rings and combustion chamber ... and wouldn't you know it the bloody horsepower has dropped by over 20% :brick:
It would be greatly appreciated if anyone knowing the whereabouts of my missing 5hp horsepower could contact me before the 7th of December.

[koba]

Finally got the KE back onto the dyno.
The motor has had a top end rebuild - new and improved piston, rings and combustion chamber ... and wouldn't you know it the bloody horsepower has dropped by over 20% :brick:
It would be greatly appreciated if anyone knowing the whereabouts of my missing 5hp horsepower could contact me before the 7th of December.

It must be catching, I just lost 7.7!

Hmm, you with the missing 5 is still more than me with the 7.7 still on board.

Bloody flighty things these horses, they spook too easily.
We should invent something mechanical to replace them perhaps?

[chrisc]

So keen to see this at Tok!

[cotswold]

Finally got the KE back onto the dyno.
The motor has had a top end rebuild - new and improved piston, rings and combustion chamber ... and wouldn't you know it the bloody horsepower has dropped by over 20% :brick:
It would be greatly appreciated if anyone knowing the whereabouts of my missing 5hp horsepower could contact me before the 7th of December.

they are in my 50

[Fastmark]

Ah the old KE125, the first bike I ever rode, which was actually my mates, brand new just three days old. Being the great mate that he was he let me have a go. Now nice and steady, secure footing (don't want to drop it) check, select first gear - check, slowly increase revs and gently engage clutch - check, beautiful smooth take off - check, man this is easy, check where you are steering erm.... no. Hit raised kerb - check, drop bike - check (but luckily on me so no damage to bike) smell of burning flesh on exhaust- check.

Huge embarrassment that gave years of piss taking - check

But for some reason I still have a soft spot for these old smokers

[F5 Dave]

Nice mate, fantastic story for a friday morning.:laugh:

[jasonu]

Nice mate, fantastic story for a friday morning.:laugh:

Queer.


Happy thanks Giving by the way.

[F5 Dave]

Charming.

Yes, thanks giving, of course. thats now is it?

We're happy that we managed to chase those damn Brits out of our colony. Oh wait. . .we haven't done that yet.

[Bert]

Finally got the KE back onto the dyno.
The motor has had a top end rebuild - new and improved piston, rings and combustion chamber ... and wouldn't you know it the bloody horsepower has dropped by over 20% :brick:
It would be greatly appreciated if anyone knowing the whereabouts of my missing 5hp horsepower could contact me before the 7th of December.

Despite the shit storm I managed to create in the other thread....
I have to say I was really impressed with the way in-which the KE ran at Tokoroa.

Had really good straight line speed (and handled really well by the looks); and sounded on the money.

So tell the story about the wheel bearing???

[kel]

I have to say I was really impressed with the way in-which the KE ran at Tokoroa.
Had really good straight line speed (and handled really well by the looks); and sounded on the money.


I totally agree Bert - great speed and handling (and a totally intoxicating exhaust note if you're a 2 stroke fan), was only the rider holding it back. I was starting to get the hang of things as my fastest laps came in the last third of race 2 when I was totally exhausted.
Was the usual troubled meet for me; sprocket carrier/wheel bearing failed during first practice, crashed out of qualifying, had an electrical fault (thankfully had the laptop which showed up the fault in the test settings), and then found the front wet was flat but all in all a really good day! Bike was awesome, racing was fun and great catching up with the South of the Bombay crowd.
Big thanks to Rick who lent me his spare wheel bearing, really grateful :drinknsin:

While I dont have 100% committement from the wife yet, it does look promising that we'll be coming down to Taumranui. 5th wont be good enough this time so watch out :Punk:

[kel]

The new KE cylinder turned up yesterday

291777

Whats special about that dirty old cylinder you ask? It has no liner! Its a full ali cylinder with nikasil bore :banana:
Had no idea Kawasaki made these cylinders with Nikasil bores but there you go. Sometimes you just luck out.

[kel]

Interesting reading for racers of air coolers wanting to improve cooling through ducting/shrouding
http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/...report-555.pdf - design principles for optimum cylinder shrouding/baffle, fin spacing, etc
http://x-jets.com/Design_for_optimum...efficiency.pdf - overview document with other interesting naca report references (type them into google)
Theres little that can be done to further cool the front of the cylinder (assuming its in free air) but shrouding can certainly aid in delivering an evenly cooled cylinder. The rear of air cooled motors get surprisingly hot, I found this out when I burnt my hand on the back edge of Robs cylinder head while we were testing on the dyno, it was hotter than the front/exhaust side!

Have seen a few different designs on line, not all of them make sense and even less conform to the NACA papers, this Vortex is probably the closest to what's required
291783291784

[TZ350]

Interesting reading for racers of air coolers wanting to improve cooling through ducting/shrouding

I dont know why the links would not connect in your post so I found them and downloaded the pdf's.

291843291844291845

[kel]

I've been working hard at trying to manage the motors heat. Wrapped the exhaust, added a 2mm copper spacer under the barrel (replacing the ali one) and formed it into a cylinder shroud. Sand blasted cylinder, head and cases and applied a very thin coat of flat black. Insulated under the fuel tank and the fuel lines and added a ram air to the air box (this added 1hp on the dyno with the fans feeding it).
I grabbed a thermal imaging camera from work to log the race temp and hopefully get some shots/info from the other air cooled 2 strokes
Took the bike to the track and it ran like a pig, a quick jaunt over to team head quarters and all fixed (thanks Rob :niceone:) Managed to get back to the track to get a couple of races in but pretty much forgot about the camera :facepalm:

The one lot of photos I took were after a practice session, head temp of 96 degrees
293451

So the jury is out on whether all the work has been worth while but the bike was embarrassingly fast and survived a very hot afternoon without drama.

[koba]

That camera is sooo cool!

I'd be interested to see some comparisons...

[kel]

Spent the morning at the track trying to dial out the front end slides the bike suffers from. First time I've bothered to use a methodical approach to suspension set up and it really paid dividends. Funny thing was after all the tweaking of the suspension settings it was tyre pressure adjustment that delivered the biggest gains.
So the bike is making 25hp for a full 3000 rpm (detuned the top end to last 40 laps), engine running temp seems to be under control, suspension seems to be working well, now all I have to do is stay on for 40 laps :crazy:
Bring on the GP!

[chrisc]

You and your bike were looking good out there this morning Kel. It certainly likes to wheelie :scooter:
Not racing tomorrow?

[kel]

Not racing tomorrow?
No. We are leaving for India the day after the GP, still lots to sort out so no racing tomorrow.

[chrisc]

Still trying to sort out how you're going to fit all those two stroke parts in your bags from india?

[kel]

suspension seems to be working well, all I have to do is stay on for 40 laps

That would be a fail on both counts :facepalm:.

Didnt understand why the front slid out during practice nor did I understand why it did exactly the same thing in the race. Oh well qualifying was fun, the times suggested it would be a cracker of a race.
Well done to Nathaniel :first:, Aaron :second: and Reegan :third:!

Im off to find a suspension guru to set up my bike.

[koba]

That would be a fail on both counts :facepalm:.

Didnt understand why the front slid out during practice nor did I understand why it did exactly the same thing in the race. Oh well qualifying was fun, the times suggested it would be a cracker of a race.
Well done to Nathaniel :first:, Aaron :second: and Reegan :third:!

Im off to find a suspension guru to set up my bike.

Mine slid heaps too, was just lucky enough to catch it each time.
I think that may be the 'other side' of running a GP bike; somewhat less... compliant.

[chrisc]

Great to see the KERS out there again Kel even if you did bin it. I forgot to count the number of RS bikes there were this year, I think there were 10 or 11 last year. Did anyone?

http://christophercain.cc/b/d/tokgp14/_MG_3433.jpg

[mr bucketracer]

That would be a fail on both counts :facepalm:.

Didnt understand why the front slid out during practice nor did I understand why it did exactly the same thing in the race. Oh well qualifying was fun, the times suggested it would be a cracker of a race.
Well done to Nathaniel :first:, Aaron :second: and Reegan :third:!

Im off to find a suspension guru to set up my bike.heak and i see you have the newer front end 93-94 , don't know what it could be..wrong weight oil? i just bang mine in like all my bikes and set up soft .

[F5 Dave]

Well a picture is worth a thousand words. Leave the old fat rider off & buy some smaller leathers for the Pedrosa sized replacement works rider.;)

. . .though I do remember the conversation going something like
"Dad, what happens when the needle goes above 14?"
"It can't its programed by the limiter"
"but what happens if it does?"

sounds like a challenge.

[cotswold]

heak and i see you have the newer front end 93-94 , don't know what it could be..wrong weight oil? i just bang mine in like all my bikes and set up soft .

I took a little look and although no expert I reckoned it was all too hard front and back.

[richban]

I took a little look and although no expert I reckoned it was all too hard front and back.

Start with springs and work back. Without the correct spring rate you are screwed.

For the rear I run 27-28 with me on it. And about 5 with just the bike. Front 15 bike only 35 - 37 with you on it. No expert at all but my 2 cents.

[kel]

Thanks for your input guys, especially Gary and Tim who had a play with settings on the Saturday night. The bike definitely responded to the extra compression dampening in the rear, it turned the squat and spin in to more of a slight drift which was pleasing, bloody front end still let go though.
I've downloaded info on settting, aligning and measuring everything so I'll work through this then hand it over to someone for final (if there is such a thing) set up.

Yes 94 forks Scott, I liked the colour of the shiny turny things not that I know how to use them. Man you were on fire last weekend.

Koba you maybe right as the old FXR use to feel like it would slide and cross up like a speedway bike, RS just goes down.

And Rich how's your shoulder. Looked like a fairly solid impact when you went down.

[richban]

And Rich how's your shoulder. Looked like a fairly solid impact when you went down.

Shoulder fine thanks. The pain I am in is from a big moment on Saturday. More hurt from staying upright than hitting the deck. How does that work!

[mr bucketracer]

did not seem to give you any warning rich ? i think part of why i went quicker was my bike was not much less than rich's on the dyno so realy all up to me to pull finger like i was riding my old 400 lol . i did know i was not going to last but thought i will go untill i'm buggerd . think some high bars would help me though. wish i had your build kel :weep: giving away55-60 kg's to the leader done not help

[kel]

So the bike had a bit of a meltdown last weekend. Had been running super well, but it seemed I over heated it and it had a heat seizure.
Sure looked like it on first inspection
308133

But once I pulled the barrel off I was somewhat confused with what I was looking at
308132
A broken ring? Nope, the bloody ring peg had let go (ring pegs have it in for me) and the ring had spun around, eventually snagging in the exhaust and BOOM. Expected better from an unmodified Wiseco piston but there you go
Its a mess, bits of ali all through the ports and down in the cases. And look at the black mess in the crankcase transfer channel, I figure that's the exhaust blowback through the hole in the piston.
Oh well, full rebuild time for this motor. Not too sure I want to use another Wiseco piston.

[F5 Dave]

Yeah would have to say that is unusual. Have a good look at how symmetrical your ex port is and chamfer so it isn't fretting the peg.

[speedpro]

more than one problem there. Possible port symmetry problem as Dave says but something caused that fizzling of the piston. I've found excess heat caused that on an otherwise OK motor, in that case a sleeved down RGV250 cylinder on a full crankcase reed TS100 with a not quite good enough water pump.

[kel]

something caused that fizzling of the piston.

Fizzling? No idea what that is.
Exhaust port symmetry is fine, spent days on the bastard to get it just right.
Motor looks like it was running super lean, colour in the exhaust duct and header was a very, very pale grey, it looks like some sort of ceramic coating. The jetting wasn't that lean so Im thinking air leak

[F5 Dave]

Looking at that piston again I don't think you can blame the piston, its been eroded, melted, mullered & erm, fizzled

[Yow Ling]

Is this the air cooled thermal instability problem Frits is always concerned about ?

[F5 Dave]

I'd say leakdown test & also forensically check jets in your carb

[kel]

Is this the air cooled thermal instability problem Frits is always concerned about ?

I would think so. It was a very hot day and I was guilty of over revving the poor thing.

So now I have to decide what to do. The new cylinder has not materialised and the builder seems to be side tracked, so ...
Rebuild the air cooler, crank and all, plus make the new head?
Cut the aux exhausts into the RG cylinder and go 100 water cooled? Cases and crank are ready to go.
Or buy that 94cc Derbi kit and graft on to the spare KE bottom end - Im leaning towards this due to the ease of sourcing affordable quality parts

[Bert]

I would think so. It was a very hot day and I was guilty of over revving the poor thing.
So now I have to decide what to do. The new cylinder has not materialised and the builder seems to be side tracked, so ...
Rebuild the air cooler, crank and all, plus make the new head?
Real bugger but also provides for an exciting development adventure.



Cut the aux exhausts into the RG cylinder and go 100 water cooled? Cases and crank are ready to go.
My vote is for this option, it's been done and works very well, I'm sure Jason will pop in and share his two cents on his success.



Or buy that 94cc Derbi kit and graft on to the spare KE bottom end - Im leaning towards this due to the ease of sourcing affordable quality parts
Didn't think they produced a non-performance/racing 94cc kit?

Don't mind me, I just think this entire derbi bigbore route really is a piss take (and so very grey under the current rules) given the endless fuss about MX85 motors....:Offtopic::confused::doh:

[koba]

What side of the piston is the hole on?

[jasonu]

My vote is for this option, it's been done and works very well, I'm sure Jason will pop in and share his two cents on his success.


2 cents is about all it is worth. ..
However if you do go this route it will be interesting to see what sort of results you get.

[chrisc]

Didn't think they produced a non-performance/racing 94cc kit?
Don't mind me, I just think this entire derbi bigbore route really is a piss take (and so very grey under the current rules) given the endless fuss about MX85 motors....:Offtopic::confused::doh:

There is a road version of many cylinders where the ports aren't quite as advanced and they come with 2 ring pistons etc for the road. They're by no means an old, crappy design but they're certainly not the race cylinders everyone imagines when you hear "aftermarket Derbi cylinder". I did a bit of research into this area before I bought a RS125 and everything became irrelevant.

A KE/derbi cylinder engine is far from the MX85 argument too. Although Kel would no doubt absolutely destroy me on a RS/KE/derbi, I personally wouldn't have a problem with it given how much effort is required, which makes buckets so much fun.

[kel]

They're by no means an old, crappy design but they're certainly not the race cylinders everyone imagines when you hear "aftermarket Derbi cylinder".

yeah nah
308180
Just about as hot as it gets, but its made for a road going Derbi motor.

[jasonu]

yeah nah
308180
Just about as hot as it gets, but its made for a road going Derbi motor.

That cylinder looks the tits!!!!! How much trouble is it to fit to the KE cases compared to fitting the RG cylinder?

[kel]

That cylinder looks the tits!!!!! How much trouble is it to fit to the KE cases compared to fitting the RG cylinder?

About the same. Fill existing stud holes, add some metal for new mounts, finish off with lots of epoxy.
I cheated on my KE/RG cases and offset the cylinder so I could use the existing rear studs. Asymetrical port timing but at least it's centred :wacko:

[F5 Dave]

What sort of stroke do the run & vs the KE can you get it to 100 or even under 104?


Heck lets all run those barrels on MX85 bottom ends change the rules I'm keen, the 4 stroke lads will all be on destroked KTM200s soon enough.

[F5 Dave]

"If you're looking for ultimate performance, we've got something for you: Bidalot 94cc Tuning Kit Factory 2014 (cylinder kit + crankshaft) Derbi Euro 2.This tuning/racing kit includes a Nikasil-plated aluminium cylinder with 6 transfer ports and divided bridged exhaust port which was modified for this 2014 version. Moreover, it includes a high-end racing crankshaft (48mm stroke / 95mm connecting rod). Also included are a high-compression modular cylinder head, a single-ring piston (d=50mm / 13mm pin) and a 4mm cylinder spacer.
The crankshaft is a top quality racing crankshaft with 48mm stroke (note: 95mm conrod, 25mm main bearing + small end bearing 13x17x17.5mm) which, in combination with the 50mm piston, will result in exactly 94cc displacement.
With plenty of torque and plenty of power throughout the entire rpm range, this 94cc Hyper Racing kit is one of the most powerful kits on the market for this type of engine and displacement. Its versatility and high quality workmanship make it the perfect kit for track as well as for drag racing."

Sweet, that looks legal but I can't afford the 700 Euro.

[kel]

What sort of stroke do the run & vs the KE can you get it to 100 or even under 104?
48mm stroke, 50mm bore. I'd take it out to the KE's 50.6mm stroke, port timing wont be perfect but it will still be a reliable rocket with a steady supply of parts.
And to cover the next question, the piston skirt is 51mm long.
Bingo Dave, 360 euro without the crank. they even offer a twin cylinder version!

[chrisc]

yeah nah

Haha, yeah I was clearly looking at a different cylinder previously :facepalm:

[Bert]

Yip all the posts above just make me think that the two stroke Rules just about need a rethink...

I wander if I could adapt one of those for my TZR... Really can't see it being difficult other than the little end bearing size...

300hp/l here I come :)

Just got to ride the thing.

[kel]

Yip all the posts above just make me think that the two stroke Rules just about need a rethink...

I wander if I could adapt one of those for my TZR... Really can't see it being difficult other than the little end bearing size...

Its too late, the Derbi after market kit motors are popping up in TZ chassis and the like. True cheque book racing, just bolt up and go.

Two options for the little end. 1. buy the aftermarket euro 2 rod and install to your crank or 2. Simonini do the same piston but with 14mm pin, plenty of rod options at that size
300hp :lol: the dyno graph they sent only shows 32hp.
edit: oh, 300hp/l sorry missed that

[Bert]

Its too late, the Derbi after market kit motors are popping up in TZ chassis and the like. True cheque book racing, just bolt up and go.

Two options for the little end. 1. buy the aftermarket euro 2 rod and install to your crank or 2. Simonini do the same piston but with 14mm pin, plenty of rod options at that size

True but I think we all agree it some some skill to really get big numbers out of them.
But <24 could be achievable to a complete noddy by bolting things together.

[jasonu]

True but I think we all agree it some some skill to really get big numbers out of them.
But <24 could be achievable to a complete noddy by bolting things together.

I think a good reliable 2t with a rideable 24hp in a decent light weight modern (RS or TZ or Griffiths) chassis with a decent rider would easily do the business.

[Bert]

I think a good reliable 2t with a rideable 24hp in a decent light weight modern (RS or TZ or Griffiths) chassis with a decent rider would easily do the business.

You'd also think the a good reliable 4t with 24hp in a decent chassis would also do the business... But... I'm proof that's it's still the rider that has to put it together....:(

[F5 Dave]

I think a good reliable 2t with a rideable 24hp in a decent light weight modern (RS or TZ or Griffiths) chassis with a decent rider would easily do the business.
What a Stella prediction. . if it hadn't happened the last 2 GPs

[jasonu]

What a Stella prediction. . if it hadn't happened the last 2 GPs

Point (previously) proven...

[kel]

I'll admit I was really keen to go down the bolt up horsepower route but the prospect of self loathing has ended my Derbi cup aspirations. So its the been done 20 years ago KE/RG100 for me. I'm going to add axillary exhaust ports without welding so will be interesting to see if it can hold together, will also re-work the transfers. I figure 28 reliable horsepower will be a reasonable target, watch this space.

[Grumph]

I'll admit I was really keen to go down the bolt up horsepower route but the prospect of self loathing has ended my Derbi cup aspirations. So its the been done 20 years ago KE/RG100 for me. I'm going to add axillary exhaust ports without welding so will be interesting to see if it can hold together, will also re-work the transfers. I figure 28 reliable horsepower will be a reasonable target, watch this space.

I'm watching...with considerable interest as i have 2XRG barrels here and don't see how it can be done without welding....

[kel]

don't see how it can be done without welding....
Epoxy as used in Aprilia RSA cylinder testing - http://www.sylmasta.com/acatalog/Kneadatite-Duro--REEL---Green-Stuff--36---90cm--331.html#SID=14

[Grumph]

You're braver than me - I'll be interested to see how long the epoxy lasts with hot gas one side and water the other.

[jasonu]

I'll admit I was really keen to go down the bolt up horsepower route but the prospect of self loathing has ended my Derbi cup aspirations. So its the been done 20 years ago KE/RG100 for me. I'm going to add axillary exhaust ports without welding so will be interesting to see if it can hold together, will also re-work the transfers. I figure 28 reliable horsepower will be a reasonable target, watch this space.


28hp should be relatively easy. Good luck with your project. Plenty of pictures please
:corn::corn::corn::corn::corn::corn::corn::corn::c orn::corn::corn::corn::corn::corn::corn::corn:

[kel]

I'll be interested to see how long the epoxy lasts with hot gas one side and water the other.

From the Pit-lane forum -
"The best working epoxy for me is Loctite 9492. I even repaired the exhaust duct (I cut a hole into the water jacket).

And from the Maestro himself "At Aprilia we had a very good epoxy, called 'stucco verde' in Italian. Never worked loose and even withstood replating!"

The auxillary duct will be primarily ali tube but it will be held in place by the stucco verde epoxy. And if it fails, there is a plan B!

[F5 Dave]

- nanobots with tiny welding torches?

[jasonu]

- nanobots with tiny welding torches?

A competent welder with a small ali mig torch.

[F5 Dave]

who can weld around corners he can nether see nor touch.

[jasonu]

who can weld around corners he can nether see nor touch.

It can be done mate. Mirrors on a stick in a gas box. Might be a bit of grinding to do afterwards though.

[Grumph]

who can weld around corners he can nether see nor touch.

Nah. the RG waterjacket can be cut away in the appropriate area and the bits you want filled done. Cut the aux ports and when you're happy with them, add the outside jacket wall. I'd reckon it would even be possible to drill water passages from the top between the aux and main exhausts.

[kel]

I'm watching...with considerable interest as i have 2XRG barrels here and don't see how it can be done without welding....

What bottom end will you mating these to?

Have a look at this site for some cool aftermarket RG parts; long con rods, icon silver flat cage big end bearings, discs etc etc - http://www.maranello-engineering.com/eshop/rotary-valve-disc-rg500-112-mm-standard-p-800.html

[jasonu]

Have a look at this site for some cool aftermarket RG parts; long con rods, icon silver flat cage big end bearings, discs etc etc - http://www.maranello-engineering.com/eshop/rotary-valve-disc-rg500-112-mm-standard-p-800.html

Cheque book racer...

[Grumph]

What bottom end will you mating these to?

Have a look at this site for some cool aftermarket RG parts; long con rods, icon silver flat cage big end bearings, discs etc etc - http://www.maranello-engineering.com/eshop/rotary-valve-disc-rg500-112-mm-standard-p-800.html

Don't know yet, may cast up cases. still thinking.....But also really too busy with OPS (other peoples shit)
Whatever, it probably won't be on a KE bottom end as you appear to have grabbed the last loose ones....

[Yow Ling]

Don't know yet, may cast up cases. still thinking.....But also really too busy with OPS (other peoples shit)
Whatever, it probably won't be on a KE bottom end as you appear to have grabbed the last loose ones....

I think you need a better internet connection, this one passed you by

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=834374995

[jasonu]

I think you need a better internet connection, this one passed you by

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=834374995

Well buggar I would have bought that if stupid tardme would let ova cees folks register.

[Yow Ling]

Well buggar I would have bought that if stupid tardme would let ova cees folks register.

Was in the news today that Americans are buying up he most kiwi land, now you want the KEs and KH's

[husaberg]

Was in the news today that Americans are buying up he most kiwi land, now you want the KEs and KH's

They can have Kim Dotcom..... he might be harbouring weapons of Mass destruction....

[kel]

I think you need a better internet connection, this one passed you by

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=834374995

and there I was offering twice the buy now for just the motor and the seller wouldn't even reply to me :crybaby:

[kel]

Was in the news today that Americans are buying up he most kiwi land, now you want the KEs and KH's

No, no, no. the Americans were the biggest buyers of NZ land, 2014 was the first year the Chinese topped the list, but not to worry Mr Key told me its just propaganda.
308478
308479

[mr bucketracer]

and there I was offering twice the buy now for just the motor and the seller wouldn't even reply to me :crybaby:that bad feed back candy man who would lol , just think i could of bought that up to the gp for you because lm nice like that

[TZ350]

No, no, no. the Americans were the biggest buyers of NZ land, 2014 was the first year the Chinese topped the list, but not to worry Mr Key told me its just propaganda.


How many Chinese brought 1/4 acre sections in Auckland does it take to equal one American South Island high country station?

[F5 Dave]

None are likely to be as honourable as Mut Shanias ex. He's awesome.

[Grumph]

I think you need a better internet connection, this one passed you by

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=834374995

Sadly true...plus i wasn't searching for a KH, or a complete bike for that matter....

[jasonu]

They can have Kim Dotcom..... he might be harbouring weapons of Mass destruction....

Na you are welcome to that fat german cunt.

[kel]

Thought I'd add auxiliary exhaust ports to the KE before sending the cylinder off to be rebored, figured it couldn't hurt to get some practice in before butchering the RG cylinder. Only one so far (and it still requires finishing) but you get the idea. Not sure how the KE is going feel about this, it had enough trouble staying cool at 27hp :laugh:
308508

And then there were two
308517
Now to match them.

The motor will also have the port timing altered, inlet duration increased, crank built with a longer rod and flat cage bearing, ceramic crown and Teflon skirt coated piston, and a new head. Should be interesting, the numbers on paper certainly are.

[F5 Dave]

Looks great.

[jasonu]

Thought I'd add auxiliary exhaust ports to the KE before sending the cylinder off to be rebored, figured it couldn't hurt to get some practice in before butchering the RG cylinder. Only one so far (and it still requires finishing) but you get the idea. Not sure how the KE is going feel about this, it had enough trouble staying cool at 27hp :laugh:
308508

And then there were two
308517
Now to match them.

The motor will also have the port timing altered, inlet duration increased, crank built with a longer rod and flat cage bearing, ceramic crown and Teflon skirt coated piston, and a new head. Should be interesting, the numbers on paper certainly are.

It almost looks like you know what you are doing.
Nice work. The results will be interesting.

[190mech]

There is some talk of ceramic coated pistons going on at PitLane,doesnt seem to work well with an aircooled engine..(page 32,33)
http://www.pit-lane.biz/t5121p620-gp125-all-that-you-wanted-to-know-on-aprilia-rsa-125-and-more-by-mr-jan-thiel-and-mr-frits-overmars-part-4

[kel]

There is some talk of ceramic coated pistons going on at PitLane,doesnt seem to work well with an aircooled engine..(page 32,33)
http://www.pit-lane.biz/t5121p620-gp125-all-that-you-wanted-to-know-on-aprilia-rsa-125-and-more-by-mr-jan-thiel-and-mr-frits-overmars-part-4

Its been discussed by Wobbly in the ESE thread. Apparently its the end gases that deto so you don't coat the squish band area of the piston only the centre part exposed to the combustion chamber. Wobbly also suggests coating the combustion chamber of the head so guess I should get this done also.
Might even throw in one of those cheapo EGT systems into the header to help keep an eye on things.

[F5 Dave]

Oh yeah there's the 4th project is dig the old get out having no really used it.

[Yow Ling]

Oh yeah there's the 4th project is dig the old get out having no really used it.
Yup , makes sense to me

[F5 Dave]

Bloody tablet. EGT I meant the EGT.

[kel]

OK have finished porting the cylinder and setting the timing. Last time out the calcs said 32hp at the crank and it made 27hp at the wheel, this time the calcs are showing almost 42hp which would be 35hp at the wheel :shit:.
I guess we'll see if the carb rule chokes it down. It won't be ready for Hampton downs but all going well it will get its pre GP shakedown at Taupo

[speedpro]

41.9 "if" you forget about the vertical angles on the transfers. Bit of scaremongering never hurt anybody though, eh Kel?

[kel]

41.9 "if" you forget about the vertical angles on the transfers.
My secondary transfer have always been set at 0 deg, but you are right about not setting the boost to 55 deg :facepalm: Oh well that's all the excuse I needed to lift the transfer to the full 132deg.
Theres no reason that those power figures aren't achievable, its more along the lines of how the bloody hell will I keep it cool enough to finish a race

[F5 Dave]

Move the go to June Taupo

[kel]

Move the go to June Taupo

Dave, you need to stop drinking so early in the day

[F5 Dave]

Friigin Tablet keep auto correcting. I'd already had to re-correct Taupo

Move the GP to June. The GP.

[mr bucketracer]

hope you did not give it to much blow up time , oops i mean blow down time lol:corn: