Safer Journeys for Motorcycling [Archive] - Page 2

MSTRS

3rd January 2012, 08:31

Brian
Further to the above.
My sincere apologies for not reading your posts in the minutest detail, which they obviously warrant, you being a person of some import.
So, that's it is it?
You blaze on in, making the statement that you can unite the great unwashed and have a cunning plan to win the war.
And what is your plan? Tougher license tests and mandatory re testing. Never before seen on this site eh?
Try the MOTO NZ people, should fit in well with day glo vests, arse kissing, and lousy Kiwi Saver investments.

Worse than that. He essentially disparaged all the hard work/effort put in by hundreds in the past and accused those still active in these sort of threads of being burnt-out, washed-up, negative has-beens, with no passion left.

Like I said first time round, Brian, you've been here 5 minutes, and you managed to insult and annoy some very good people. Unless you had something NEW to offer, why did you bother??

Fatt Max

3rd January 2012, 08:38

I've heard a rumour that some even have teeth. Haven't seen one for myself though.

Believe me they are out there......

Ocean1

3rd January 2012, 09:06

Aaaah Yes paula Rose,
Now can I make the obvious suggestion here?? IF she quotes that advanced rider training promotes accidents at higher speeds, and we all know that the Police are trained using some of the UK Police motorcylce roadcraft manual, as is the training for the IAM advanced test. Maybe she needs to be asked publicaly how she can reconcile that statement in the face of those facts? Because if she stands by that philosophy, then she is also saying that Police riders are overconfident and liable to higher speed accidents.
This is the sort of question that needs careful 'planning' so it is asked in a hopefully large forum like radio or with polititians about.

There's actually a valid point to her argument, and I don't think it's hers alone amongst the politbureau. The problem they’ve got is caused by several conflicting features of human behaviour. Firstly, our throttle hand is driven by an in-built risk assessment protocol that we find very difficult to over-ride. Secondly, the various attempts at restricting risky behaviour are currently set well below those average human behavioural limits.

But here’s the thing: It is their problem. Not mine. And it only becomes your problem if you’re arrogant enough to believe your opinion is better than those whose very lives depend on their own.

We like to think our own risk-taking strategies are consciously well thought out and that they should represent some sort of limit which everyone else should observe. But really, apart from the artificially generated angst about the road toll in general and our part in it in particular, what’s the problem? Considering the accident statistics objectively is not the road a remarkably safe place to be, considering the sheer mass of machinery hurtling about it?

I think we do pretty well, that the road toll as a measure of our safety on the roads and an indication of the speed we should be travelling at long ago reached and blasted past the point of diminishing returns. I predict this won’t prevent them reducing speeds further, limiting overtaking more widely and introducing more control mechanisms and traffic calming devices over the next few years. The miniscule difference it’ll make will be buried amongst many far more influential factors, and if those factors are positive they’ll be claimed as a success for the above, if negative, they’ll be used to justify yet more draconian measures.

Just call me Nostradamus.

Brian407

3rd January 2012, 09:12

Worse than that. He essentially disparaged all the hard work/effort put in by hundreds in the past and accused those still active in these sort of threads of being burnt-out, washed-up, negative has-beens, with no passion left.

Like I said first time round, Brian, you've been here 5 minutes, and you managed to insult and annoy some very good people. Unless you had something NEW to offer, why did you bother??

I agree, why did I bother here. Obviously this is where burnt out activists come to die, and bemoan their lives while they do it. I think i'll go and find some people who care about their future enough to keep trying new methods, instead of constantly trotting out the old ones that clearly havent worked.

Like I said earlier, if the message isnt being heard, change the fucken message, and/or the way its delivered. Its not rocket science but clearly beyond the grasp of many here.

Enjoy your self pity.

By now.

BMWST?

3rd January 2012, 09:22

Actualy you both have a valid point.
We do need a concerted 'effort' to apply pressure on the powers that be. BUT we also need to 'clean our act up'. As much as you may not wish to accept it. When a 'gang' is in the news, back patches etc? The instant public perception is they are 'US', motorcyclists. The sometimes stupid riding over roads like the rimutaka's.. does overtaking cars on bends and on yellow lines give a good public perception? ( I stand up and admit I do 'break the law' and exceed the speed limit at times) Although I jibe Hardly riders as do many others.. sadly many are my age group and they have loud pipes, dress in semi 'biker' gear.. often german style melmets, black face scarves covering to the eyes, etc, etc.. Not a 'good' public perception. As much as we have a right to wear what we like (for now) it does carry a public perception. I am not advocating that we all become captain sensible clones, just trying to outline some of the deep seated prejudices out there. They may read in the paper about boy racers etc,, but it is US, lane splitting and carving them up in traffic they see every day.
Polititians love this public perception, it allows them to use us as an easy target, rather than target a larger group, motorists. We do have a responsibility as a group to negate this image. Classic example was today on the ferry coming back to wellington. 4 bikes, 2 'old farts' :bleh: and 2 young guys on an R1 and R6. The two on the R's were both on lovely clean bikes, covered in Dynotune etc stickers and with aftermarket exhausts. In itself, not a problem. Both wearing good 1 piece racing suits. (public image??) Anyway, during embarking, one had to keep? blipping the throttle. When we prepared to disembark, again he sat there revving the bike for ages. It became obvious it was annoying not only the 2 'old farts' but other motorists. His mate asked him to switch off, his response was to rev it even more. Good public image! Thats what we need to clean up. Yes I know boy racers in cars do exactly the same, but they are more socialy accepted than riders, sad but true. Most of their fathers would have been 'centre plot racers/cruisers'. I am sure many can remember a coulpe of years ago when the young teenager got banned for excessive speed? His fathers response was, "he's only just got it (car). He's young, of course he is going to want to see what it will do, why are you being so hard on him?"

^^^^^this ^^^^^ as i tried to say before

yungatart

3rd January 2012, 09:41

Conquiztador

3rd January 2012, 09:42

I think we do pretty well, that the road toll as a measure of our safety on the roads and an indication of the speed we should be travelling at long ago reached and blasted past the point of diminishing returns. I predict this won’t prevent them reducing speeds further, limiting overtaking more widely and introducing more control mechanisms and traffic calming devices over the next few years. The miniscule difference it’ll make will be buried amongst many far more influential factors, and if those factors are positive they’ll be claimed as a success for the above, if negative, they’ll be used to justify yet more draconian measures.

Just call me Nostradamus.

And that is really it. Somewhere someone with powers has decided that this is what is important; to get the road accidents/deaths down. And no matter how high the cost, no matter what it takes, it is worth pursuing.

In a much earlier post I stated that the number of suicides/year are higher than deaths on the roads but the funding to prevent them is miniscule in comparison. Yesterday I was discussing with someone re number of deaths in hospitals as a reult of wrong medication given, apperently those numbers are higher than road deaths too. Where are the campaigns that say "The number of suicides MUST come down" or "The number of deaths as a result of wrong medication given MUST come down?"

The reality is clear: The whole thing is not about saving lives, it is about politics, income and justification to push whatever self-serving goals that are the aim.

MSTRS

3rd January 2012, 09:42

I agree, why did I bother here. Obviously this is where burnt out activists come to die, and bemoan their lives while they do it. I think i'll go and find some people who care about their future enough to keep trying new methods, instead of constantly trotting out the old ones that clearly havent worked.

Like I said earlier, if the message isnt being heard, change the fucken message, and/or the way its delivered. Its not rocket science but clearly beyond the grasp of many here.

Enjoy your self pity.

By now.

What new methods? More and better training? That's as old as all the other things that have been and are being espoused.
There were 3 stand out wants to come out of the first Safer Journeys workshops...fix dangerous roads, slow down, more and better training.
Where's the something new you are so focussed on?

Katman

3rd January 2012, 09:50

And that is really it. Somewhere someone with powers has decided that this is what is important; to get the road acidents/deaths down. And no matter how high the cost, no matter what it takes, it is worth pursuing.

In a much earlier post I stated that the number of suicides/year are higher than deaths on the roads but the funding to prevent them is miniscule in comparison. Yesterday I was discussing with someone re number of deaths in hospitals as a reult of wrong medication given, apperently those numbers are higher than road deaths too. Where are the campaigns that say "The number of suicides MUST come down" or "The number of deaths as a result of wrong medication given MUST come down?"

The reality is clear: The whole thing is not about saving lives, it is about politics, income and justification to push whatever self-serving goals that are the aim.

The cost to the country from suicide or medical misadventure doesn't even register in comparison to the cost of repairing and rehabilitating crash victims.

riffer

3rd January 2012, 09:59

The cost to the country from suicide or medical misadventure doesn't even register in comparison to the cost of repairing and rehabilitating crash victims.

Nail > Head.

It's not the deaths, people. It's the one's who don't die. I shudder to think how much it costs to repair crash victims. Two people I know quickly come to mind: James Deuce and KatiePie. Although one can argue until the cows come home (or cross the road in front of a biker) who's at fault in either of their recent offs, the fact remains both of these riders would have cost ACC in excess of five figures easily to treat.

Multiply that by the amount of injury crashes in the last five years you can see the problem clearly.

James Deuce

3rd January 2012, 10:15

Nail > Head.

It's not the deaths, people. It's the one's who don't die. I shudder to think how much it costs to repair crash victims. Two people I know quickly come to mind: James Deuce and KatiePie. Although one can argue until the cows come home (or cross the road in front of a biker) who's at fault in either of their recent offs, the fact remains both of these riders would have cost ACC in excess of five figures easily to treat.

Multiply that by the amount of injury crashes in the last five years you can see the problem clearly.

Oh FFS. I was back at work, part time in 3 months, full time in 4. There are people who fall down their steps at home who spend longer off work. A lot more people, a lot longer off work. If you want to "fix" ACC focus on DIYers and gardeners. They cost a shitload more than motorcyclists. You'd get the same spent on you Simon. You ignorant dickhead.

The issue here is the focus on an easily targeted, very visible minority.

We need to encourage people to ride bikes, not scare them off. Very, very soon Honda will have bikes on the market that equal and surpass the fuel economy of a decent '60s British single or twin, but with twice the performance, car-like maintenance schedules and durability. Congestion and resource consumption are buzzwords that politicians understand. A motorcycle that carries two people on the daily commute and uses 2.5-3L/100km will outperform public transport easily during its life and has the positive benefit of taking up not much more space than a bicycle to park.

The constant negative message " we're NOT the bad guys, tho government are", and " bikes are dangerous but I chose to accept that" are kicking the whole concept of motorcycling into the grave.

The basic philosophies of road use in NZ need to change. Training needs to be part of the long term solution. People giving a shit about other people needs to become the other major change. Road rage is just fucked in the head behaviour. Using a vehicle as a weapon is the same, even if its just to intimidate. Using poorly planned lane-splitting manoeuvres as an excuse to knock mirrors off is also fucked in the head.

Well, I really can't be bothered now. Same old bullshit finger pointing and backstabbing from BRONZ. Thanks a fucking lot.

yungatart

3rd January 2012, 10:35

StoneY

3rd January 2012, 10:42

No need to bash BRONZ, JD.
Simon was simply stating a true and statistical fact whether you like the taste of that bitter sweet pill or not, it is a FACT!

The kicker is it is not even the medical costs that are the biggest factor in the motorcycle recovery costs, its the income compensation, especially those 45-55 year old company directors who just watched 'Wild Hogz' and go buy a 50k Harley.
They happen to have the Class 6 as a left over from 35 years ago on the farm..... then they bin it in the first week off the showroom floor,and go on to claim 80% of 250k salary for 9 months, it's those pricks that spike the $$$ stats something chronic! All for the sake of a few days of training, and 200$ of fee's.

You may have been back at work in 4 months JD but that's pretty quick considering your injuries. Not as many people are as willing to return to work as soon either.
The factor that takes makes us such a huge focus is that we take longer off work. Nothing to do with the patch up costs.
KP was off way longer, (that girls an inspiration and a great friend of mine, do NOT read this comment any other way than a mere statement of truth!)

It SHOULDN'T matter in a no fault system, but that's what this government has justified its stance on.

The cost of the recovering motorcyclist that binned it on the open road is phenomenally higher than the average car crash victim (stated AVERAGE) and I have seen the raw data that proves this is true.
While car recovery costs are far higher than M'Cycle related costs overall, there are over 2.5 million of the fuckers so that's expected. Because our bikes are such a small %age of the national fleet, our costs are higher per capita. Again I have seen and analyzed the RAW data form all sources.

I still disagree with us being targeted and I disagree with the governments figures, the old '18x more likely' bullshit and the claim we are crashing more than ever (fleet has quadrupled in size in 20 years, fatalities are stable at about 45-50 for over ten years, ergo we are dying LESS)
But it is also the advances in medical and emergency vehicle technology that's assisted to reduce those numbers, there was only one rescue helicopter in NZ 20 years ago, now there is what; 50? 60? As well as all the regular Helicopter companies that provide contract cover for the full timers?

We may be having less fatalities per capita, but there are factors involved in keeping broken bodies alive that now cost us 300 times what such an injury in the 80's would cost.

Survival %ages are much higher, but so is the expense associated in keeping those people alive.

Conquiztador

3rd January 2012, 10:51

And here I was, in my simplicity, thinking that it was about saving lives. How could I have been that naive to think that lives mattered.

The only thing that matters is money.

MSTRS

3rd January 2012, 10:58

And here I was, in my simplicity, thinking that it was about saving lives. How could I have been that naive to think that lives mattered.

The only thing that matters is money.

Well, saving lives is a huge priority...because of what a life is apparently worth.
Treating injuries is a direct cost (I believe the average m/c crash cost in that respect is $21,000 ish)
A death does have a direct cost of course, but is more in potential loss (apparently a human life is worth $3,000,000ish)

So, yes - it is about money.

Katman

3rd January 2012, 11:06

Treating injuries is a direct cost (I believe the average m/c crash cost in that respect is $21,000 ish)

And if that figure is correct and the spreadsheet that Simon provided at post #261 is also correct then it would suggest that motorcyclists have managed to cost the country almost 44.2 million dollars over the last five years.

NONONO

3rd January 2012, 11:13

And, just over this Xmas period...http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/94711/holiday-injuries-cost-acc-millions
Jeez.
BBQ's, swimming pools...Hey, aren't they usually in the back yard?...Better clean them up.

StoneY

3rd January 2012, 11:15

Well, saving lives is a huge priority...because of what a life is apparently worth.
Treating injuries is a direct cost (I believe the average m/c crash cost in that respect is $21,000 ish)
A death does have a direct cost of course, but is more in potential loss (apparently a human life is worth $3,000,000ish)

So, yes - it is about money.

Yep - wish it were otherwise but....

I have actually been present when ACC officials have stated 'deaths cost us less than serious injury, especially where long term support, recovery, and income compensation over the long haul is involved'

The TOR's for MOTONZ is to reduce injury and fatalities, yet all I ever saw was a bunch of people with different opinions on how the money should be spent.

The only silver bullet we were shown is being largely left aside and ignored.

The biggest gain we can make the fastest is adopt the roading engineering practices developed in Vic, then look for the next thing to focus on - why re-invent a wheel that we already have access to without the need to repeat the research?

The best question I ever heard asked on a MOTONZ meeting was 'why does your tar seal not melt in the heat over there?'

Katman

3rd January 2012, 11:17

NONONO

3rd January 2012, 11:18

Over a period of 2 weeks. Still, eh? Clean em up, backyard.

Katman

3rd January 2012, 11:22

Over a period of 2 weeks. Still, eh? Clean em up, backyard.

I'm sure if the government was able to figure out a way of targetting the entire population without fear of losing their position of power they would do so in a heartbeat.

Motorcyclists don't have the comfort of numbers.

NONONO

3rd January 2012, 11:24

It has, it's the sell off of ACC. A practice I believe you approve of.

Katman

3rd January 2012, 11:34

It has, it's the sell off of ACC. A practice I believe you approve of.

Good for them.

Perhaps it will bring about the return of a society that takes responsibility for it's actions.

MSTRS

3rd January 2012, 12:02

And if that figure is correct and the spreadsheet that Simon provided at post #261 is also correct then it would suggest that motorcyclists have managed to cost the country almost 44.2 million dollars over the last five years.

Do you recall the figure ACC used to assist in swaying opinion against us? 2008/09 year it was $60M.
Now who do we believe?
And remember, the majority of that figure was for historic injury treatment and income compensation. Which was also paid for in previous years' levies. AND nobody ever confirmed whether income compensation came out of the earnings fund or the motor fund. The suggestion was that if injury was caused in a vehicle crash, then that fund paid everything. Which doesn't make sense, when considering we all pay according to our income into the earning fund. And if there are people on high incomes being compensated out of the motor fund, then how fair is that on us on low(er) incomes having to pay increased levies in our regos.

Scuba_Steve

3rd January 2012, 12:10

Good for them.

Perhaps it will bring about the return of a society that takes responsibility for it's actions.

oh please tell me your trollin'.

GrayWolf

3rd January 2012, 12:40

There's actually a valid point to her argument, and I don't think it's hers alone amongst the politbureau. The problem they’ve got is caused by several conflicting features of human behaviour. Firstly, our throttle hand is driven by an in-built risk assessment protocol that we find very difficult to over-ride. Secondly, the various attempts at restricting risky behaviour are currently set well below those average human behavioural limits.

But here’s the thing: It is their problem. Not mine. And it only becomes your problem if you’re arrogant enough to believe your opinion is better than those whose very lives depend on their own.

We like to think our own risk-taking strategies are consciously well thought out and that they should represent some sort of limit which everyone else should observe. But really, apart from the artificially generated angst about the road toll in general and our part in it in particular, what’s the problem? Considering the accident statistics objectively is not the road a remarkably safe place to be, considering the sheer mass of machinery hurtling about it?

I think we do pretty well, that the road toll as a measure of our safety on the roads and an indication of the speed we should be travelling at long ago reached and blasted past the point of diminishing returns. I predict this won’t prevent them reducing speeds further, limiting overtaking more widely and introducing more control mechanisms and traffic calming devices over the next few years. The miniscule difference it’ll make will be buried amongst many far more influential factors, and if those factors are positive they’ll be claimed as a success for the above, if negative, they’ll be used to justify yet more draconian measures.

Just call me Nostradamus.

Agreed Nostradamus :bleh:
my point is, that as Police riders are trained from the same book 'advanced rider training' is taken from? She does in effect shoot herself in the left foot.

actungbaby

3rd January 2012, 12:40

Am going get back into riding and ride by example am not out to score polictical points or fight with people.

If you want discuss serious issues in person whould be better not hiding behind keyboard in the real world.

Akot these groups start out with good intentions then boged down in power struggles and infighting and egos

I surpose you have to say we share common love of motorcycling cant see alot love here though.

The wires on highways i notice around wellington area alonf that lovley costal road , gee to think one worst,

Accident spots i dont know why i love concetration of riding arround there its great , never really thought what happen if

Bike got forced into the wire with me on it cant say makes me feel safe or unsafe its up to me how i surive on the Road

Not up to somone in the behive its personall commiment by me to my wife and family to protect myself

What i like to see is law Inforcement doing someting about the noise limits on cars its like flmaing race track at nights

Sometimes its Noise pollution govt going on about familys actually dont really do they its all about making money

And selling of assest with this lot and the lot before , and i know some people on here are very intelligent people

why resort to slating into each other cant you make your points view in common sence way with out personall attacks

And foul language just show you to up as angry and un postive looks nasty

That's it in a nutshell. Specific issues vary between people. Some hate cheesecutters, others don't have a problem with wire rope barriers. Some think the ACC component should be the same for all road users, others think that there is an increased risk in riding on two wheels so why shouldn't there be a different levy? Some are ATGATT preachers, some even wear hi-viz. Others just want to ride.

As one of those "pricks who just wants to ride" as caseye so eloquently put it, I find it hard to think of an issue that would cause to me join in in a group protest.* I will ride around/deal with/get over roading issues like shit surfaces and wire rope, I will ignore ATGATT and hi-viz if ever legislated. I just want to ride, and at the moment I can't see anything on the horizon that will stop me doing so.

*Actually, if there is a ride to get shot of MotoNZ and get back my $30pa I might be tempted. Fucking pointless exercise that was/is.

yungatart

3rd January 2012, 12:49

MSTRS

3rd January 2012, 12:59

Yer what?
Again...in English this time, otherwise it is just so much gobbledygook!

Settle - he's getting better. I could even understand most of it this time, and he has a point.
But we're still gonna argue about stuff, because everyone has a differing opinion on what is a problem, or on how to deal with it, and despite what *some* on here seem to think, there is any amount of passion when it comes to riding and the shit that threatens the longterm prospects.

riffer

3rd January 2012, 13:08

Oh FFS. I was back at work, part time in 3 months, full time in 4. There are people who fall down their steps at home who spend longer off work. A lot more people, a lot longer off work. If you want to "fix" ACC focus on DIYers and gardeners. They cost a shitload more than motorcyclists. You'd get the same spent on you Simon. You ignorant dickhead.

Calm down. Yes you were back at work in 3 months. Yes I'd get the same amount spent on me. I used you as I believe its a fairly good exemplar of ACC's involvement in motorcycle accidents.

There's no need to bring up the straw man argument of DIYers and gardeners and there's definitely no need to descend to ad hominem.

DMNTD

3rd January 2012, 13:11

Settle - ....

LOL! How did that comment work for you mister? Duck 'n weave! :eek:

MSTRS

3rd January 2012, 14:11

LOL! How did that comment work for you mister? Duck 'n weave! :eek:

The bleeding has almost stopped...

riffer

3rd January 2012, 14:32

yungatart

3rd January 2012, 14:33

LOL! How did that comment work for you mister? Duck 'n weave! :eek:

The bleeding has almost stopped...

Anyone would think I had violent tendencies...

MSTRS

3rd January 2012, 14:49

One big point I have to make.

Give up on your straw man arguments. There is NO POINT in comparing motorcycle injuries and deaths to injuries and deaths FROM ANY OTHER SOURCE because they're simply not relevant to the discussion here.

In the last five years of stats (1996 - 2010) there were 2105 motorcycle accidents. Not a lot, but still significant.

And here's what the Police have recorded as the causative human factors for the accidents where one could establish clear factors:

Alcohol 326
Overtaking 154
Speed 470
Fatigue 24

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why they concentrate on alcohol and speeding does it?

Still, there's 1376 accidents they have no information recorded as to causative human factors.

682 of those are single vehicle accidents. That's at least 30% of ALL accidents involving motorcycles in the last five years that have no recorded causative human factors.

I would like to find out what really happened in these accidents.

How many of the 2105 (assuming it's correct) had multiple causes? Cos I have a shortfall of 245...
Besides, a statistically significant number didn't have the type/cc of bike recorded and did not record location (road - offroad).
I can tell you that 3 of those single bike accidents actually occurred all together due to some f-wit letting 4 litres of oil spill on a corner = 1 death, 1 major injuries, 1 moderate injuries. You can bet your last dollar that they were recorded as single bike/lost control on a bend (ie - rider error).

NONONO

3rd January 2012, 15:14

One big point I have to make.

Give up on your straw man arguments. There is NO POINT in comparing motorcycle injuries and deaths to injuries and deaths FROM ANY OTHER SOURCE because they're simply not relevant to the discussion here.

In the last five years of stats (1996 - 2010) there were 2105 motorcycle accidents. Not a lot, but still significant.

And here's what the Police have recorded as the causative human factors for the accidents where one could establish clear factors:

Alcohol 326
Overtaking 154
Speed 470
Fatigue 24

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why they concentrate on alcohol and speeding does it?

Still, there's 1376 accidents they have no information recorded as to causative human factors.

682 of those are single vehicle accidents. That's at least 30% of ALL accidents involving motorcycles in the last five years that have no recorded causative human factors.

I would like to find out what really happened in these accidents.
Had a piece of research, way back when, that spoke to this. Will try and dig it out again.
Something about lack of any real consistency in both investigation and reporting of road traffic accidents in NZ. Also discussed CASA and the issues with data input and interpretation.
Was critical of the police approach which it said made a rush to "Fault" rather than "Cause"..will have a look.
And Riffer, of course looking at other examples and areas is relevant, bigger picture eh?

Brian d marge

3rd January 2012, 15:37

In a caring, egalitarian society ( which we sort off, had.)
this conversation and loads like it, would be null and void
the question therefore, is why are we becoming a self centred divided community?
one reason I feel is that, by dividing people, demonising one section, Maori, yoof Islam, gays, . You can manipulate the larger group. example, all of the laws around "the evil terrorist " blasted through under urgency...
a few greedy people have made the average persons life a touch difficult,,
yes, social costs have gone up ( the oldies, and a large voting block to boot..)
but that's why I pay taxes, (happily) ...but get pissed off when services aren't met and our assets are stripped, or the costs rise due to shareholders demanding a profit ( basic services are not businesses, they are basic services.)
Acc is a world leader, is doing OK and i don't care whose fault it was we have a basic human responsibility to care for our community
well done acc and well done those who are trying to keep it I for one appreciate your efforts

Stephen

Katman

3rd January 2012, 15:43

Acc is a world leader, is doing OK and i don't care whose fault it was we have a basic human responsibility to care for our community
well done acc and well done those who are trying to keep it I for one appreciate your efforts

I also appreciate ACC's efforts.

It's the contempt with which New Zealand has treated the concept that fucks me off. It was never meant to be a "fuck you Jack, it's my right to act as stupidly as I please" potion.

MSTRS

3rd January 2012, 15:47

I also appreciate ACC's efforts.

It's the contempt with which New Zealand has treated the concept that fucks me off. It was never meant to be a "fuck you Jack, it's my right to act as stupidly as I please" potion.

Got that right. As per usual, the few fuck it up for the many. Tis the NZ way.

Brian d marge

3rd January 2012, 16:02

Got that right. As per usual, the few fuck it up for the many. Tis the NZ way.
ah the minority ... there are a few but most people are just hard working average persons, ( we could demonise them .... make it look like they are causing the country's debt to skyrocket:-) )
kill the poor... ostracize the foolish...it is after all them other people that are costing us so much money ...bastards...

Stephen

Katman

3rd January 2012, 16:04

ah the minority ... there are a few but most people are just hard working average persons, ( we could demonise them .... make it look like they are causing the country's debt to skyrocket:-) )
kill the poor... ostracize the foolish...it is after all them other people that are costing us so much money ...bastards...

Stephen

I'd settle for just penalising the deliberately stupid ones.

Fatt Max

3rd January 2012, 16:08

Anyone would think I had violent tendencies...

...........and that is what scares me most, for I have seen and felt it......:baby:

Fatt Max

3rd January 2012, 16:32

May as well chuck my $0.02 in for what its worth.

I can see the many sides to this debate and have a certain amount of afiliation to all points of view. I do subscribe to the notions that:

a - We are responsible for our own conduct and safety as individuals and collectively
b - The stats have always been flawed to some degree
c - MOTO NZ have turned out to be a piss poor representation of motorcyclists but I still believe they had t be given a chance
d - The action groups tried but its really hard to get cohesive agreement
e - As a founder member of one of these groups, I am sorry that we could not achive more but as soon as ego and personal agenda come into the equasion, the focus and aim was lost. I should have done more to combat that but I did not.
f - I was all for uniting the biker community and still am.
g - because I have met some of the best people I have ever known through motorcycling.....so there...:)

I salute all points of view and I hope that remark does not 'offend' anyone as trying to be nice and supportive has got me in trouble in the past (maybe cos I is fat).

Did we have a chance to change things through the last election..? Who knows but we are dealing with politicians so who knows.

I just hope that somehow we can re-ignite a proactive and effectice resistance to the current undertow that threatens to disrupt our lifestyles. I will be 110% behind any effort to do that......might even write another song.....

As I sad, my $0.02 worth

Conquiztador

3rd January 2012, 16:33

I will put my neck out and try to summarise what I get from this thread (and other ones similar to this one):

- We are all worried regarding how mc-biking in NZ will look like in a near future.
- We agree that in our current state of individualism we have no power to affect the ones who makes the decisions.
- We feel that our only hope is to get all (or at least most) bikers to take a stand for the same issue, but we can not agree on the issue.
- We are waiting for someone else to put all this together and then we will scrutinise what he/she/they have come up with before we decide if we will support the cause or shoot it down.

Really, our only realistic hope is that our government decides to impale us on a new piece of anti-biker legislation that will hurt us all. The irony here is that only once we are bleeding will we act. But by then it is too late.

Katman

3rd January 2012, 16:35

(maybe cos I is fat).

Well it ain't 'cos you is black.

Fatt Max

3rd January 2012, 16:37

Well it ain't 'cos you're black.

Lord knows I've tried mate.......

Brian d marge

3rd January 2012, 16:53

Fatt Max

3rd January 2012, 16:59

Thats about right , can I add one more , NO DONUTS for those who don’t deserve them

Stephen

You heartless weightist bastard......

Brian d marge

3rd January 2012, 17:03

You heartless weightist bastard......

Thats Brian b'stard to you young sir

Stephen

NONONO

3rd January 2012, 17:10

Scuba_Steve

3rd January 2012, 17:17

It's the contempt with which New Zealand has treated the concept that fucks me off. It was never meant to be a "fuck you Jack, it's my right to act as stupidly as I please" potion.

do you have some fucked up idea that NZ is one big country full of sadists who enjoy nothing more than inflicting massive pain to themselves??? :weird:
No-one I know of thinks ACC is a right to "act stupidly", nor do they sit there & go "I would do this except for the cost if I were to fuck up", no they'll sit there & go "I would do this except for the pain I would inflict on myself should I fuck up"
You must either work in Govt or be one hell of a Govt bum boy to think it's all about $$$. It's pain that stops us doing stupid shit, not financial penalties, or higher ACC costs, Pain. Plain, simple, good old fashion pain!!!

Fatt Max

3rd January 2012, 17:18

Well....
We have 3 years, we also have the possibility (and I do mean possibility) of generating a non partisan
movement, which could be (and I do mean could be) supported by all the clans.
"NZ Riders Are Voters Too".
If only we could agree on what are aims are.

Always believed RAV was the way to go because it affected voting opinion on policy that the parties and pollies could be challenged on and held accountable for.

Always believed that this wpuld be the closest to a 'Biker Party" we could get without attracting the 'single issue party' criticism.

Always believed that motorcyclists basically want a fair go out there but our ability to demonstrate our own safety, awareness and common sense is paramount.

To be a voice we need to be unified and that is accepting key points that personally we may disagree with.

A leading voice to pull this together and us as a community to take our own downfalls on the chin and make the neccessary steps to corrrect them.

I see it as the old chesnut 'Those that live in greenhouses should'nt throw stones' deal.

Its a collaboration of ideas and ideals to represent the community.

MOTO NZ do NOT represent the community, their shot has been had and they have messed up the duvet, so they can feck off

Take personal crap out of the equasion and fight the communal battles, it really is the only way. Then votes who are also riders wil have a voice.

And I will be right there mate, with great big bells hanging off my danglies......

Conquiztador

3rd January 2012, 17:19

AD345

3rd January 2012, 17:20

And the reason for hypotetically not starting a political party is?

No-one would join

Less would vote for it

NONONO

3rd January 2012, 17:23

Conquiztador

3rd January 2012, 17:23

No-one would join

Less would vote for it

You base that on...?

AD345

3rd January 2012, 17:25

You base that on...?

Single issue party attempts in the past

GrayWolf

3rd January 2012, 17:32

do you have some fucked up idea that NZ is one big country full of sadists who enjoy nothing more than inflicting massive pain to themselves??? :weird:
No-one I know of thinks ACC is a right to "act stupidly", nor do they sit there & go "I would do this except for the cost if I were to fuck up", no they'll sit there & go "I would do this except for the pain I would inflict on myself should I fuck up"
You must either work in Govt or be one hell of a Govt bum boy to think it's all about $$$. It's pain that stops us doing stupid shit, not financial penalties, or higher ACC costs, Pain. Plain, simple, good old fashion pain!!!

Errrrr blimey mate, how wrong can you be? Look at every rugby ground in the country, there is your country full of sadists who think ACC is a 'carte blanch' to act stupidly and get pain inflicted upon them. I used to work as a rehab assistant with a Physiotherapist and the amount of work days lost to rugby injuries is fantastic to say the least.
To the Govt it IS about the dollars, as usual we are a high profile minority they can 'crucify' without upsetting the great unwashed masses. Now lets imagine if all those clubs and players suddenly had to fork out the same levy every motorcyclist has to, after all if you look at it statisticaly they have a higher chance of regular minor injury than we do. Also to put it into a perspective most can 'understand' if you take a Jonah Lomu and a Case Mewes sized players at full impact in a head on tackle? It has the same impact level on the human body as running into a brick wall at 20kph.
The fear of pain is not what stops us doing things (admittedly unless it is a high risk manouver, and even then???) If we as a species had that reflex fully developed, we wouldnt smoke, drink, fight, ride bikes, climb ladders............
Guess that makes me a Govt 'bum boy' in your mind, as a 'fat bottomed boy' at least the ride is comfortable :buggerd:

Hitcher

3rd January 2012, 17:48

Fatt Max

3rd January 2012, 18:02

Think we looked at this, Mark???
But hey NZ RIDERS ARE VOTERS TOO PARTY?
Think one of the reasons is that there are bikers with deeply held political beliefs (left and right) who are not about to abandon them.
Also unlikely to take votes from the current incumbents.
Non partisan eh?
But as I said, Hey.

Safer Roads.
Safer Riding.
Fairer Deal.

Mate
The party was looked at but a single issue party holds no weight (unlike my pants)
Riders are Voters is more of a lobby / protest / action movement based on basic principles and a direct message
Pollies are liars and cheats
Bikers / motorcyclists need to be seen to matter, so lets see if we can matter
A single loud voice is much harder to ignore than a load of low ones arguing the toss
Accept the changes we have to make, have the strength to change them then hit the bastards full on
100,000 or so registered bikers in NZ, that is a number that should not be ignored
But we MUST get the house in order across all angles. Then and only then will we have unity and a voice
Scoring points and bikering over shite wil not cut it
But hey, as I've been told so many times, what the f**k do I know.......

NONONO

3rd January 2012, 18:05

Still smiling....

Or as well as, possibly.
Do both, one feeds the other, cross party support?

Conquiztador

3rd January 2012, 18:13

Still smiling....

Or as well as, possibly.
Do both, one feeds the other, cross party support?

I like!
- Start a Biker Party
- Infiltrate other political parties
- Start a Non Partisan Movement

Now if we could find a cause we could all agree on... Shit! Just as I was getting all excited :doh:

Brian d marge

3rd January 2012, 19:08

Effort would be better spent infiltrating the existing political parties and getting them on song. Good heavens, some parties are lame enough to imagine a world where the single-most pressing issue is GST on fresh fruit and vegetables. Imagine what they could do with a real issue supported by a significant swathe of the electorate.

Some of them oldies ride bikes, we need to send an undercover agent into the inner sanctum of "greypower" now there’s a voting block .....

Stephen

Brian d marge

3rd January 2012, 19:10

GrayWolf

4th January 2012, 14:54

Some of them oldies ride bikes, we need to send an undercover agent into the inner sanctum of "greypower" now there’s a voting block .....

Stephen

We already have that agent, it's called the Ulyssess club...... There's another large group if we could only get them 'onside'.. but to do that asd Max has pointed out, we need collectively to clean our act up.

Brian d marge

4th January 2012, 15:28

We already have that agent, it's called the Ulyssess club...... There's another large group if we could only get them 'onside'.. but to do that asd Max has pointed out, we need collectively to clean our act up.Uylessisses , you mean , I remember the top fella being almost PRO increases , They did IMHO , very little

BRONZ , in particular Ixon did much more , again IMHO

No , its greypower Im talking about , the old biddies ,,,,,,, ( who are quite canny sometimes )

Stephen

Brian407

4th January 2012, 15:35

A significant number of Ulysses members are already in Grey Power.

Brian d marge

4th January 2012, 16:06

A significant number of Ulysses members are already in Grey Power.

if they were significant , Winston peters would have been up there like a rat up the drain pipe

So either they are Significant , but did nothing , or of an insignificant number.

unfortunately we need the Whole of greypowers voting block , Or the tide of popular opinion, before those idiot will listen

and at the moment we are a loose collection of individuals , that’s getting the short shaft

Stephen

Brian407

4th January 2012, 19:42

if they were significant , Winston peters would have been up there like a rat up the drain pipe

So either they are Significant , but did nothing , or of an insignificant number.

unfortunately we need the Whole of greypowers voting block , Or the tide of popular opinion, before those idiot will listen

and at the moment we are a loose collection of individuals , that’s getting the short shaft

Stephen

Play semantics as much as you like, it doesnt alter the fact that a significant number of Uylsses members are also members of grey power, but as Uysses are mostly apolitical then i guess they're just in it for the discounts.

bikaholic

4th January 2012, 20:01

Brian 407, those other groups that have been mentioned, are a world apart from KB, why are you not singing your gospel to them?
Serious question.

Brian407

4th January 2012, 20:13

Brian 407, those other groups that have been mentioned, are a world apart from KB, why are you not singing your gospel to them?
Serious question.

Despite the fact that Greypower has motorcyclists within their midst, to them we are just 'temporary kiwis' riding 'two wheeled death traps', and they have nothing to be gained politically by supporting our cause, and Ulysses, as we all know, have thier own 'fish to fry' and are not that interested in our cause.

Serious Answer.

bikaholic

4th January 2012, 20:20

Despite the fact that Greypower has motorcyclists within their midst, to them we are just 'temporary kiwis' riding 'two wheeled death traps', and they have nothing to be gained politically by supporting our cause, and Ulysses, as we all know, have thier own 'fish to fry' and are not that interested in our cause.

Serious Answer.Right-e-o then, what other vehicles (media, groups etc) would there be to infultrate, get on side with or get a empathetic co-something with?

Hitcher

4th January 2012, 20:29

Right-e-o then, what other vehicles (media, groups etc) would there be to infultrate, get on side with or get a empathetic co-something with?

AA (perhaps both, but probably the automotive one)
Federated Farmers
Chambers of Commerce
Rotary, Lions, Probus, etc
Trade Unions
MNZ and other motorsport organisations

bikaholic

4th January 2012, 20:32

AA (perhaps both, but probably the automotive one)
Federated Farmers
Chambers of Commerce
Rotary, Lions, Probus, etc
Trade Unions
MNZ and other motorsport organisations

Do you seriously think they would give an iota about Kiwibiker rego/ flouro rumblings ?,( if they have ever heard of kiwibiker)

Hitcher

4th January 2012, 20:38

Do you seriously think they would give an iota about Kiwibiker rego/ flouro rumblings ?,( if they have ever heard of kiwibiker)

Good grief. We're talking about political activism and promoting awareness of issues that affect motorcyclists. Kiwi Biker has little to do with that. Many of us are members of clubs and associations, and some of us have professional relationships that we can leverage to help advance the motorcycling equity cause. If you think that this whole process hinges on Kiwi Biker, you really need to get out more.

bikaholic

4th January 2012, 20:45

Good grief. We're talking about political activism and promoting awareness of issues that affect motorcyclists. Kiwi Biker has little to do with that. Many of us are members of clubs and associations, and some of us have professional relationships that we can leverage to help advance the motorcycling equity cause. If you think that this whole process hinges on Kiwi Biker, you really need to get out more.or you've change your tune from previous posts by you haven't you, so your all on board now, or for a little while?.
So now there may be some detail on groups rather than dancing around a circle, is that your idea or brians?

Hitcher

4th January 2012, 20:53

or you've change your tune from previous posts by you haven't you, so your all on board now, or for a little while?.
So now there may be some detail on groups rather than dancing around a circle, is that your idea or brians?

I have no idea what you're on about me changing my tune. This whole business is extremely hard work that has scant chance of making a meaningful result. That doesn't mean that there aren't people dedicated to motorcycling's cause who are working tirelessly, a bit like water dripping on a rock, on several causes of which unjust ACC levies are but one. There are folks that are better at this than me who also have way better connections. There are always risks about making assumptions about people one doesn't really know well, or people assuming that just because they've had a bright idea that nobody else has previously had the same idea.

bikaholic

4th January 2012, 21:10

Bend over if you must. We're still going to get it up the arse whatever position we choose.Sorry I took this post out of context while skimming the thread.

bikaholic

4th January 2012, 21:17

... Kiwi Biker has little to do with that. ... If you think that this whole process hinges on Kiwi Biker, you really need to get out more.So in your words, where does this leave Kiwibiker?

pritch

4th January 2012, 21:19

A significant number of Ulysses members are already in Grey Power.

There are undoubtedly people on KB who could join Grey Power. I walk past their rooms about once a week but have never been tempted to climb the stairs. I've always wondered why Grey Power had their rooms upstairs, considering this may limit access for some prospective members.

Then again the bordello almost right next door might be the attraction? Hmmmm might have to consider joining.

Hitcher

4th January 2012, 21:28

So in your words, where does this leave Kiwibiker?

Kiwi Biker isn't an organisation. It's a forum where people with a common interest can share ideas and experiences. It's a way people can also set up opportunities to meet in reality. This can include social interactions, race meetings, sales and business opportunities, and political events like the Bikoi. Remember that other forums and networks contributed to the Bikoi's success; it didn't all happen through this forum.

Kiwi Biker isn't going to do anything. That's the job of the people who post here. There's no leadership group or secretariat.

bikaholic

4th January 2012, 21:35

Kiwi Biker isn't an organisation. It's a forum where people with a common interest can share ideas and experiences. It's a way people can also set up opportunities to meet in reality. This can include social interactions, race meetings, sales and business opportunities, and political events like the Bikoi. Remember that other forums and networks contributed to the Bikoi's success; it didn't all happen through this forum.

Kiwi Biker isn't going to do anything. That's the job of the people who post here. There's no leadership group or secretariat.Exactly, fee to join (donation will be accepted), no leader, open to all, no committee, no constitution, no agenda, no actions.
Anyone who really wants to champion a cause will do it in a club, community etc with the above attributes, or yeah, most of those are financial as well.
Which really spells out alot doesn,t it.

Conquiztador

4th January 2012, 22:20

Exactly, fee to join (donation will be accepted), no leader, open to all, no committee, no constitution, no agenda, no actions.
Anyone who really wants to champion a cause will do it in a club, community etc with the above attributes, or yeah, most of those are financial as well.
Which really spells out alot doesn,t it.

Hmmmm....Not sure where you are going with this? KB is a forum on the net. That is it. Nothing more. And apart from a few threads that focus on issues we as bikers face with legislation, increasing levies, cheese cutters etc, the majority on here is about life as a biker. Jokes, technical, ride reports, help with bike issues, new gear, etc. etc.

bikaholic

4th January 2012, 22:27

Merely pointing out to those that want some traction and detail on issues, that KB has no structure, and has to be done elsewhwere.

Brian d marge

5th January 2012, 01:41

Play semantics as much as you like, it doesnt alter the fact that a significant number of Uylsses members are also members of grey power, but as Uysses are mostly apolitical then i guess they're just in it for the discounts.

You cannot be apolitical in today’s environment

actually you can , they are called sheep and deserve everything they get , the bad thing is , the rest of us suffer for the apathy of others ,

So at least half or more of Ulysses are in greypower ? no, thought not , but its that size of voting block we need. I don’t care if its MAG , sag ,, wag,,,, "you list these" Moto nz .. DestotoNz ... one voice, one message . simple and the votes to back the voice up.

So , imagine, I am the president of "you list these" by talking with the other groups , we draw up a list of things we don’t like, then we issue a notice to members saying " you list these" recommends you vote for these people based on what we want and the performance/stance of the politician , Then with that we "side with " greypower as a whole ( or a group with similar numbers ), its not just about bike , its a wider community thing as well . ( Granny does her back in lifting the turkey , needs a help getting to the physio.. sorry luv not covered under ACC!, ,,, see what i am getting at , and if it IS privatised , well look at what happening in Christchurch for a taste of what will be .
snip ;
Australian-based IAG, which is hoping to buy AMI and claims to be the largest general insurer in New Zealand, has seen record claims from floods and storms in Australia and earthquakes in New Zealand force it to raise reinsurance cover to up to A$4.7 billion ($6.2 billion) from A$4.1b a year ago.

One wonders if this is through sound investment alone ???

Stephen

until we have the numbers and a united voice its .... ( insert your own metaphor here)

StoneY

5th January 2012, 09:52

So , imagine, I am the president of "you list these" by talking with the other groups , we draw up a list of things we don’t like, then we issue a notice to members saying " you list these" ..............

Been tried many times mate, and in fact there are two such projects in the wind right now! And both are slowing to a crawl, as they recieve promises of support and membership...and nothing happens.

BRONZ is campaigning to build its Federation (that is exactly what you are suggesting pretty much) and a good few groups have committed to it...but not nearly enough yet!

Ulysses created the National Forum of Motorcycle Clubs (and they lobbied MOTO NZ for the TEXT DUNG service)
MAG, BRONZ, Ulysses, MNZ and a few other groups attended the first meetings but its yet another deafening silence since.....

I have been witness and present at both groups meetings, and you know what?
The old adage applies... try get any of them to agree on ANYTHING!
There are always a few who just cannot compromise on their own personal agenda...(like ME!)

Since MAG's leadership changes I am unsure how active they are currently, but I do keep in email contact with Dom and a few of the leaders of MAG.
I hope they (MAG) grow and prosper, as should the BRONZ Federation, but unless both public bikers and organised groups show some cohesion, this sort of level of national representation is a fucking pipe dream.

As I now am just another member of BRONZ I may be out of the loop and missing any progress being made on these fronts, but the silence is pretty deafening IMO (at the member level anyway)

Brian d marge

5th January 2012, 14:08

Been tried many times mate, and in fact there are two such projects in the wind right now! And both are slowing to a crawl, as they recieve promises of support and membership...and nothing happens.

BRONZ is campaigning to build its Federation (that is exactly what you are suggesting pretty much) and a good few groups have committed to it...but not nearly enough yet!

Ulysses created the National Forum of Motorcycle Clubs (and they lobbied MOTO NZ for the TEXT DUNG service)
MAG, BRONZ, Ulysses, MNZ and a few other groups attended the first meetings but its yet another deafening silence since.....

I have been witness and present at both groups meetings, and you know what?
The old adage applies... try get any of them to agree on ANYTHING!
There are always a few who just cannot compromise on their own personal agenda...(like ME!)

Since MAG's leadership changes I am unsure how active they are currently, but I do keep in email contact with Dom and a few of the leaders of MAG.
I hope they (MAG) grow and prosper, as should the BRONZ Federation, but unless both public bikers and organised groups show some cohesion, this sort of level of national representation is a fucking pipe dream.

As I now am just another member of BRONZ I may be out of the loop and missing any progress being made on these fronts, but the silence is pretty deafening IMO (at the member level anyway)

Sadly I have been there( different group ) before , So , I buggered off,

Sadly its a western trait , to be individualistic , and Sometime opinion , agendas get in the way ( its also the fault of the chairman / listener who man not be making everyone feel like they have been listened to ....

Apathy , nothing ever good came from it ,
Stephen

martybabe

5th January 2012, 16:44

Some of the views in this thread have merit, actually a lot of them have merit but until we are united on the issues and speak and act in unison against the policies that affect us in a negative way we will forever be the 'vultures in the tree'.

We really could be a force to be reckoned with against the Evil doers that want to legislate us off the road but indecision, disagreements, apathy and constant debate are the foes we need to overcome first.

What are we gona do now?

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/MGTWmrnPdgk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

StoneY

6th January 2012, 18:31

And foul language just show you to up as angry and un postive looks nasty

I will accept foul language from the biker fraternity, long before I accept your spelling, grammar or use of syntax.

:yes:

NONONO

6th January 2012, 19:02

Katman

6th January 2012, 19:15

So, where are we? This is It?

Yes, it looks like Katman's Kampaign is the only route forward. :eek:

Scuba_Steve

6th January 2012, 20:11

Yes, it looks like Katman's Kampaign is the only route forward. :eek:

:no: you need to have 3 words like Katman's Kampaign for Karefulness this way people can easily remember it in an acronym, the "KKK" people are sure to remember that :yes::lol:

Fatt Max

6th January 2012, 20:28

Ok then sweethearts...

Yeah yeah yeah, blah blah blah.......

So, do I detect the need for the protest movement to kick off again?

Is it more relevenat to challenge the direction of BRONZ so that we can move on with some serious action rather than start a new group?

I'm not the man to lead because I have been told many times that I an a stupid cunt with no idea who rides a 250cc and is, well a stupid cunt....

Tell you what though, keen not to let this go.......and I will support it, even if I am a stupid c....well, you know....

So......

Conquiztador

7th January 2012, 09:44

Conquiztador

7th January 2012, 09:56

Luv the video of the vultures, and yes , seems like where we are.
So lets have a review.
Moto-NZ, Government funded, doing what was suspected they would do. This despite the attempts of some to bring them to some understanding of what was needed.
MNZ. Sports related, not an issue for a lot of people.
Ulysses, concerned with Ulysses. Over 40? Member? Right enough. Not interested in anything else. And why would they be? No fault there.
BRONZ. More contentious, but again, no probs.
Auckland...Hmmmm. Ride Right Ride Safe. Toy run, Blood Run. Numbers? Probably back down to pre Bikoi levels (26)
Wellington. Riffer, doing a blazing job, have no idea bout paid up members. But again considering the number of bikers, miniscule. But in terms of making a difference in Wellington, can't fault them.
MAG-NZ, on hold.

So, where are we? This is It?

Add:
HOG. Harley Owners Group, worried about...
MC traders in NZ. Interested in selling bikes and gear. Any change in the landscape would affect them in a big way.
Insurance companies. Interested in insuring bikes and making a profit out of it.
MC/MCC/Social clubs. Mainly interested in their members and own issues.
KB. A mix of riders/bike enthusiasts from all walks of life. No direction, only functions as a forum.

Fatt Max

7th January 2012, 13:04

Before starting a new organisation/getting involved with a current one I think the first thing that needs to be done is decide on what the issue is and get all to agree... Hmmm, have we been here before??

Yes we have mate,

Is that a reason to not bother or more of an incentive to make something happen....???

We are going to get rooted up the jacksy again by this present government, cant change that now because, well, they got voted in. But we do have three years to get our shit together, lobby the parties and see who will give us the best deal for which they can be held accountable.

In tandem with this we work on being better and safer riders.

All been said before, is this not something that BRONZ should therefore be spearheading. After all I am talking here about bikers rights, are they not the organisation that represents that.

So, before we do anything, do we lobby BRONZ...???....maybe that is the way to go but make a meaningful stand on this. Or do MAG want to step up and grab hold of this??

Just thinking out loud after a very restless night going through all the work that went into our rights and the situation we are at now.

Oh and by the way, I apologize for the use of the 'C' word in previous posts....no real need for that

Maha

7th January 2012, 13:24

Conquiztador

7th January 2012, 14:23

:yawn: Which ever which ever, can some please actually do something rather than slapping each others arse on an public networking site over and over so that myself (and other like minded bikers) can continue to get the most enjoyment out of weekends on the road? :niceone:

I'll try again...
Issues we all can (perhaps? maybe?) agree on as bikers:

Rego is too high. (Notice I do not get in to why or what should be done as that will straight away kill this...)
We do not want compulsory Hi-Vis vests. (The ones who want to wear them should be allowed to, after all this IS still a free country...)
We do not want compulsory Hi-Vis helmets or white ones! (Same logic as the vests)
We want to stay alive, but draconian measures is not what we are wanting. We advocate for better initial rider training, ongoing training (no mentioning at this stage if it should be compulsory as that would also devide the masses) and regular doctor checkups to make sure we are able to ride (again, no mentioning here re if this is compulsory or not for same reasons)
We want other road users to have training in what it means to share the road with motor bikes. (Type and frequency of training not mentioned here)
Road maintenance to help us stay alive. (No mentioning what as we will disagree on what is important)
And somehow I think that is all we can agree on. What should happen with ACC is not something we can agree on, speeds up or down on roads is again something that we disagree on. Age of when able to ride, size of bikes and so on is all issues that we have many options on.

Or perhaps there is more we can agree on???

Katman

7th January 2012, 14:45

I'll try again...
Issues we all can (perhaps? maybe?) agree on as bikers:

Rego is too high. (Notice I do not get in to why or what should be done as that will straight away kill this...)
We do not want compulsory Hi-Vis vests. (The ones who want to wear them should be allowed to, after all this IS still a free country...)
We do not want compulsory Hi-Vis helmets or white ones! (Same logic as the vests)
We want to stay alive, but draconian measures is not what we are wanting. We advocate for better initial rider training, ongoing training (no mentioning at this stage if it should be compulsory as that would also devide the masses) and regular doctor checkups to make sure we are able to ride (again, no mentioning here re if this is compulsory or not for same reasons)
We want other road users to have training in what it means to share the road with motor bikes. (Type and frequency of training not mentioned here)
Road maintenance to help us stay alive. (No mentioning what as we will disagree on what is important)
And somehow I think that is all we can agree on. What should happen with ACC is not something we can agree on, speeds up or down on roads is again something that we disagree on. Age of when able to ride, size of bikes and so on is all issues that we have many options on.

Or perhaps there is more we can agree on???

That's all a wonderful little pipe dream but until we're seen to be taking the matter of our own safety seriously by addressing our own behaviour on the road then there ain't going to be anything gained no matter how high we jump up and down.

Katman

7th January 2012, 14:46

That's all a wonderful little pipe dream but until we're seen to be taking the matter of our own safety seriously by addressing our own behaviour on the road then there ain't going to be anything gained no matter how high we jump up and down.

Repost.

(Thought I'd get that in before anyone else).

Maha

7th January 2012, 14:54

Repost.

(Thought I'd get that in before anyone else).

I was trying to word those words myself.....:niceone:

If riding outside the limits of which you think 'unfair' is your thing, then surely you must be prepeared to pay for that privilege.

Katman

7th January 2012, 15:12

The fact of the matter is.......

It doesn't matter how many guns you have - you're fucked without ammo.

Fatt Max

7th January 2012, 16:05

The fact of the matter is.......

It doesn't matter how many guns you have - you're fucked without ammo.

Head of nail whacked with considerable force there, true on so many levels

Oops, sorry, did I slap someones arse on a networking site, dear oh dear I gone and done it again, tsk tsk......

avgas

7th January 2012, 17:46

It doesn't matter how many guns you have - you're fucked without ammo.
Dunno.
Wise person said to me once.
"You can achieve a lot with good nature and a smile. You can achieve a fuckload more with gun and smile"
Ammo is for amateurs.

Scuba_Steve

7th January 2012, 18:16

The fact of the matter is.......

It doesn't matter how many guns you have - you're fucked without ammo.

:facepalm: you never heard of the "pistol whip", "Butt stroke", "Slash and thrust" or at the least intimidation???

NONONO

7th January 2012, 19:05

:no: you need to have 3 words like Katman's Kampaign for Karefulness this way people can easily remember it in an acronym, the "KKK" people are sure to remember that :yes::lol:

I can see the T Shirt.
On the front, reminiscent of something recent;
"I'm a Kat Person".
On the back "IT'S ALL MY OWN FAULT".

Katman

7th January 2012, 23:04

:facepalm: you never heard of the "pistol whip", "Butt stroke", "Slash and thrust" or at the least intimidation???

Word of warning.......

Don't expect pistol whipping, butt stroking:blink:, or slashing and thrusting to save your arse if the opposition has guns and ammunition.

GrayWolf

8th January 2012, 09:10

:facepalm: you never heard of the "pistol whip", "Butt stroke", "Slash and thrust" or at the least intimidation???

LMFAO have to admit Steve you are right, "BUTT STROKING" would get you a long way with some polititians..... Are you volunteering?

Maha

8th January 2012, 09:37

LMFAO have to admit Steve you are right, "BUTT STROKING" would get you a long way with some polititians..... Are you volunteering?

Butt Stroking/Arse Slapping/Head Patting....they all lead to the same conclusion....none of which will amount to an ounce of good.
Translation = Kept at arms length

Did I forget Ego Pumping?

Scuba_Steve

8th January 2012, 10:08

Word of warning.......

Don't expect pistol whipping, butt stroking:blink:, or slashing and thrusting to save your arse if the opposition has guns and ammunition.

You say that but there is a reason the military keeps theses techniques round

LMFAO have to admit Steve you are right, "BUTT STROKING" would get you a long way with some polititians..... Are you volunteering?

:no: Im far from the brown-nosing type, I think they'd object to me stroking their butts with flails

swbarnett

8th January 2012, 18:35

I'll try to spell it out for you........

There is a huge number of motorcycle accidents that are caused through either stupidity, incompetance or inattention on the part of the motorcyclist.
In absolute numbers maybe. When it comes to percentage of kms ridden not nearly as much.

Due to the nature of our increased vulnerability those accidents are made plainly noticeable to the general public.

It's not prejudice, it's fact.

If we set about addressing those accidents that need never have happened we'd be well on the way to fixing the problem.
You're the most prejudice one of all. The vast majority of kms ridden every year are without incident. What people see, yourself included, is the few riders that get in to trouble and extrapolate that to all but the most sedate. Just because someone rides in a "dangerous manner" as you would see it does not mean they are destined to have an accident. The way we're riding is not the biggest problem when it comes to public perception. It's the fact that most people look at bikes as dangerous because they just can't undrestand why someone would elect to forgo the protection of a metal cage. Society has become far too safetly conscious.

If you had your way we would all confom to the expectations of the rest of society before those expectations are imposed upon us. Well, guess what? Everybody that has ever pushed the envelope (people like Galileo Galilei, Thomas Edison and Richard Branson) has refused to conform. If we all confirm all we do is stagnate and remove all joy from life.

Katman

8th January 2012, 18:50

In absolute numbers maybe. When if comes to percentage of kms ridden not nearly as much.

You're the most prejudice one of all. The vast majority of kms ridden every year are without incident? What people see, yourself included, is the few riders that get in to trouble and extrapolate that to all but the most sedate. Just because someone rides in a "dangerous manner" as you would see it does not mean they are destined to have an accident. The way we're riding is not the biggest problem when it comes to public perception. It's the fact that most people look at bikes as dangerous because they just can't undrestand why someone would elect to forgo the protection of a metal cage. Society has become far too safetly conscious.

If you had your way we would all confom to the expectations of the rest of society before those expectations are imposed upon us. Well, guess what? Everybody that has ever pushed the envelope (people like Galileo Galilei, Thomas Edison and Richard Branson) has refused to conform. If we all confirm all we do is stagnate and remove all joy from life.

Sounds like a challenge to me.

I'll stick to trying to improve the general attitude and conscience of motorcyclists while you stick to trying to change the general publics perception and opinion of motorcyclists.

Lets see who gets the furtherest.

'Cos the reality is that one of them's got to change, otherwise we're in the fuckin' shit.

avgas

8th January 2012, 18:56

Did I forget Ego Pumping?
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/NFS1pbFD--8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Conquiztador

8th January 2012, 22:04

Sounds like a challenge to me.

I'll stick to trying to improve the general attitude and conscience of motorcyclists while you stick to trying to change the general publics perception and opinion of motorcyclists.

Lets see who gets the furtherest.

'Cos the reality is that one of them's got to change, otherwise we're in the fuckin' shit.

swbarnetts posting put in words something to me that I have been battling with for some time. Bikers are not brown nosed ass lickers who want to conform and have the acceptance of society. We want to ride bikes, we want to take risks and we want to have the right to put our self in danger, and at times we loose. But we know that it is the price we might have to pay. We have the right to do all this and we do not need someone to put rules in place to restrict our choices.

I have been contemplating a movement, perhaps a political one, to push for what many of us stand for. Why I have not gone any further is that I have no wish or intention to play by the rules society is dictating. And therefore I realise that I would only get a few to follow. The Katmans of this world would never agree to what I consider would be the message. And so the most probable outcome will be a FTW one.

Brian d marge

9th January 2012, 01:18

Brian d marge

9th January 2012, 01:34

swbarnetts posting put in words something to me that I have been battling with for some time. Bikers are not brown nosed ass lickers who want to conform and have the acceptance of society. We want to ride bikes, we want to take risks and we want to have the right to put our self in danger, and at times we loose. But we know that it is the price we might have to pay. We have the right to do all this and we do not need someone to put rules in place to restrict our choices.

I have been contemplating a movement, perhaps a political one, to push for what many of us stand for. Why I have not gone any further is that I have no wish or intention to play by the rules society is dictating. And therefore I realise that I would only get a few to follow. The Katmans of this world would never agree to what I consider would be the message. And so the most probable outcome will be a FTW one.

I think you and Katman are on the same page , but one does not know it

Having been a dr , for many a few years .... I can see ( and agree with ktman ) . But i fly through traffic and I speed and I fuck up , but I try not to based on ..; experience , Training and good old common sence

the shit heads in power are forced into the decisions based pressure to repay loans , they are just looking for money ...simple , aint nothing to do with u or me , just money

4 mil peps at 5% risk , steady return on investment, thats all it boils down to ( and its a society I DO NOT WANT TO BE A PART OFF)

Stephen

Maha

9th January 2012, 06:28

''we want to take risks and we want to have the right to put our self in danger, and at times we loose''

I would rather you didn't lump me in with the we analogy.

Katman

9th January 2012, 08:52

Conquiztador

9th January 2012, 08:52

''we want to take risks and we want to have the right to put our self in danger, and at times we loose''

I would rather you didn't lump me in with the we analogy.

If you have NEVER taken a risk, if you have NEVER been in a dangerous situation, and if you have NEVER crashed or had an injury from bike riding you are allowed to be excluded. Personally I know no biker who never had his/her heart racing and adrenaline flowing from something he/she has done on his/her bike. Surely that is one of the reasons we ride? Or perhaps you are right, perhaps nobody else than me rides for these reasons? (Clearly there is also other reasons I ride) If all that is removed as a result of legislation and policing then I will go back to hang-gliding.

Maha

9th January 2012, 09:13

If you have NEVER taken a risk, if you have NEVER been in a dangerous situation, and if you have NEVER crashed or had an injury from bike riding you are allowed to be excluded. Personally I know no biker who never had his/her heart racing and adrenaline flowing from something he/she has done on his/her bike. Surely that is one of the reasons we ride? Or perhaps you are right, perhaps nobody else than me rides for these reasons? (Clearly there is also other reasons I ride) If all that is removed as a result of legislation and policing then I will go back to hang-gliding.

Its the term 'we want to' that I take issue with....I never want to be in any of those situations...yes they happen from time to time but not because I want them too, thats just a rediculous thing to say.

Scuba_Steve

9th January 2012, 09:29

Its the term 'we want to' that I take issue with....I never want to be in any of those situations...yes they happen from time to time but not because I want them too, thats just a rediculous thing to say.

do you not want to ride a bike??? that is (relatively) a risky form of travel, relatively dangerous, & bike vs something we're gonna lose. Im somewhat with Conquiztador on this, not only are bikes (relatively) dangerous, risky etc but not many (if any) buy bike's for a slow sunday puttu along, especially in the "sports", "adventure", or "dirt" genre's. We buy them for a bit of fun. & for people that don't, well, maybee it's time to look at a Prius.

Conquiztador

9th January 2012, 09:31

Its the term 'we want to' that I take issue with....I never want to be in any of those situations...yes they happen from time to time but not because I want them too, thats just a rediculous thing to say.

And that is why any ambition to get bikers to unite and work together on common issues will sadly always fail. We are too individual, and things I take for granted are not shared by others. But at the same time, things that others would advocate are ones I would never agree on.

To state that it is rediculous for me to state that I on purpose take risks while riding, is a rediculous statement.

Maha

9th January 2012, 09:35

do you not want to ride a bike???

Not necessarily, its something that I enjoy doing when the oppotunity is presented.

Maha

9th January 2012, 09:38

To state that it is rediculous for me to state that I on purpose take risks while riding, is a rediculous statement.

Where did I say that?
You are the one that used the words ''we want to'' not me.

Now you're being a dickhead.

avgas

9th January 2012, 09:38

One good thing about all off this

It doesnt consern me !!! hhahahahahaha sux to be u !

I ll fly in to NZ , march 22nd , ( business and a few single malts in Pohara )

but I am commited to giving Skumdog or Rustcat at least 100 dollars PLUS another hundy for donuts

photos provided of course

mite take a touch of planning , as the poor man with the RED flad will have to sprint a bit

BUT , I hopefully will

A; give popo donuts
B; make someone think obout speeding and that its revenue gathering ( 18 dead , this year evenb though we stamped upon speed and alkeaholl)
c, Nz dollars arent worth shit

Stephen

whishing he COULD loft the front , since 1884
When you do. Start a thread. We need a rebel thread on this forum........its getting boring here.
We need a thread with pictures of tickets, speed camera photos..........general naughty stuff.
Sometimes we get so caught up in the "its-too-dangerous" we forget that deep down we all have a little hoon in us. Even Katman got a ticket for having a bit of fun.

riffer

9th January 2012, 09:47

Sometimes we get so caught up in the "its-too-dangerous" we forget that deep down we all have a little hoon in us. Even Katman got a ticket for having a bit of fun.

Very true mate. I just got the "you're a potential murderer" letter from NZTA in the mail over Christmas. Scary how quick those demerits add up. I need to be good until May now or its walkies time for me.

Owl

9th January 2012, 09:56

Even Katman got a ticket for having a bit of fun.

:gob:

How is that possible? Katman foresees all potential issues!;)

Stirts

9th January 2012, 10:19

We need a thread with pictures of tickets, speed camera photos..........general naughty stuff.

Now that's just naughty! :wings: Would LOVE to see some speed camera photos, bet some of them would be farking funny.

Very true mate. I just got the "you're a potential murderer" letter from NZTA in the mail over Christmas. Scary how quick those demerits add up. I need to be good until May now or its walkies time for me.

What a shit Christmas present!

Conquiztador

9th January 2012, 10:19

Now you're being a dickhead.

Thanks for bringing this down to the KB expected level. There was a second I actually was thinking that we were discussing our different view on this issue.

MSTRS

9th January 2012, 10:32

Thanks for bringing this down to the KB expected level. There was a second I actually was thinking that we were discussing our different view on this issue.

What did you expect?
It's NOT a discussion, when someone makes a sweeping statement that gives the impression that all motorcyclists do it for the same reason and want the same things, is it?

Maha

9th January 2012, 10:52

Thanks for bringing this down to the KB expected level. There was a second I actually was thinking that we were discussing our different view on this issue.

My view on this issue is specifics and your view is generalizing...what more is there to discuss?

Conquiztador

9th January 2012, 10:53

I take this posting is what you, MSTRS, have an issue with:
swbarnetts posting put in words something to me that I have been battling with for some time. Bikers are not brown nosed ass lickers who want to conform and have the acceptance of society. We want to ride bikes, we want to take risks and we want to have the right to put our self in danger, and at times we loose. But we know that it is the price we might have to pay. We have the right to do all this and we do not need someone to put rules in place to restrict our choices.

I have been contemplating a movement, perhaps a political one, to push for what many of us stand for. Why I have not gone any further is that I have no wish or intention to play by the rules society is dictating. And therefore I realise that I would only get a few to follow. The Katmans of this world would never agree to what I consider would be the message. And so the most probable outcome will be a FTW one.

What did you expect?
It's NOT a discussion, when someone makes a sweeping statement that gives the impression that all motorcyclists do it for the same reason and want the same things, is it?

If you read the whole posting you see that I in it clearly state that I realise that not all would agree with me.
Yes, foolishly perhaps, I did consider it a discussion; I had made a statement that I would get/got replies to. I then took the posters views in to consideration and again replied. That, in my ignorance, created a discussion.

Perhaps clarification is in place: I am sure that one of the reasons all (or 90% of us) ride is the freedom it allow us to make decisions. At times we make a decision to live a little dangerously. BUT if you do not want that, then YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO MAKE THE DECISION NOT TO. That is in the end all I am here trying to say; I would never agree on a stance where all our choices how we ride are taken away from us. Someone dictating what colour riding gear, what colour bike, the size of bike, the max hp, the max speed it can reach, times of day I can ride, roads I can ride etc. It is where we are funnelled. And I for one will not comply when this is in place.

MSTRS

9th January 2012, 11:24

I take this posting is what you, MSTRS, have an issue with:

I don't actually have an issue, either with what you said, or what I think was your intent. I simply pointed out that a sweeping statement and a rebuttal is not a discussion.
FWIW I know that motorcycling is an inherently risky activity, and there is a high probability that some get off on making it more so. However - it has to be said "From whose point of view?". The individual sets their own risk level, since that is what everyone does no matter what it is they are doing, and we'd like to retain that right, instead of having tptb doing it for us. Correct?
Even anarchy has rules...

Conquiztador

9th January 2012, 12:30

The individual sets their own risk level, since that is what everyone does no matter what it is they are doing, and we'd like to retain that right, instead of having tptb doing it for us. Correct?

Yep. To me this is fundamental. But at times on here I get the feeling that we can not agree on this.

Luckily there is a move to get rid of some of the rules, and "surprisingly" the amount of accidents have dropped.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_space
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,448747,00.html
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=removing-roads-and-traffic-lights
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.12/traffic.html?pg=3&topic=traffic&topic_set

With some luck there will be some trials on open roads soon...

MSTRS

9th January 2012, 13:02

But at times on here I get the feeling that we can not agree on this.

In particular, I think 'we' cannot agree on what level of risk is appropriate. Neither can the authorities...and the bar keeps getting lowered whether 'we' like it or not. Realistically, motorcyclists are not alone...

Maha

9th January 2012, 15:15

Every so often, rumblings are bought to the fore about how Motorcyclists conduct themselves on the road whilst out enjoying what some (at times) consider to be their favourite past time.
As the rumblings evolve and each individual has their say, it’s apparent that not all can agree on with what is being said.
On occasion, there seems to be other reason’s/faults as to why mishaps/faux pas occur on the road.
And on occasion, that probably is the case.
But some accidents are due to other factors.
Once bitten twice shy is not always case when it comes to motorcycle accidents.
Some will learn and some will not.
I know of a number of bikers who have had accidents of varying degrees…multiple times.
I also believe that not all motorcyclist give a shit what the Government thinks of them and their antics on the road, that’s a given.
It should be made compulsory for those that survive a motorcycle accident, and are under the care of ACC to undergo an Advanced Rider Training course.
Even if its to ultimately make for safer journeys...

swbarnett

9th January 2012, 17:56

Sounds like a challenge to me.

I'll stick to trying to improve the general attitude and conscience of motorcyclists while you stick to trying to change the general publics perception and opinion of motorcyclists.

Lets see who gets the furtherest.
Believe it or not I actually agree that it would be easier to improve the general attitude and conscience of motorcyclists than to change the general publics perception and opinion of motorcyclists.

However, I don't believe either are likely enough for me to expend copious amounts of energy on them.

'Cos the reality is that one of them's got to change, otherwise we're in the fuckin' shit.
Yes, we're headed for the shit. Simply because, as a rule, the society we live in is not tolerant of difference.

There is a third option that, I believe, has more chance of success. I'm all for rider education and tightening the license laws. If some progress is made in this area I'll be among the first to congratulate you and thank you for a job well done. However, I don't believe that we can make enough progress to satisfy the scared control freaks. And if we did, we all may as well all be driving cars.

What is needed is a concerted resistence to any law that preaches intolerance. We need TPTB to know that we are a force to be reckoned with. We need to make them think twice before imposing their fears on us through legislation. Mass civil disobedience to any unjust law is the best tool we have. Think what would've happened if we'd gotten 100,000 bikers on the bikoi.

swbarnett

9th January 2012, 18:00

It should be made compulsory for those that survive a motorcycle accident, and are under the care of ACC to undergo an Advanced Rider Training course.
Even if its to ultimately make for safer journeys...
This has to be one of the best things I've seen on KB for a while. Now that's thinking. Not only does it have a chance of reducing recidivism. It actually identifies those that have cocked up and doesn't rely on using a crystal ball.

Conquiztador

9th January 2012, 18:06

It should be made compulsory for those that survive a motorcycle accident, and are under the care of ACC to undergo an Advanced Rider Training course.

Now you are thinking! Bling sent.

Katman

9th January 2012, 18:26

We need TPTB to know that we are a force to be reckoned with. We need to make them think twice before imposing their fears on us through legislation. Mass civil disobedience to any unjust law is the best tool we have. Think what would've happened if we'd gotten 100,000 bikers on the bikoi.

That is precisely why we need the general public on our side. We don't have the numbers by ourselves to cause the powers that be any lost sleep.

The 'Who's Next?' campaign had real merit but was doomed to failure because we don't have the general public's empathy. We are generally being seen as getting what we deserve.

NONONO

9th January 2012, 20:30

That is precisely why we need the general public on our side. We don't have the numbers by ourselves to cause the powers that be any lost sleep.

The 'Who's Next?' campaign had real merit but was doomed to failure because we don't have the general public's empathy. We are generally being seen as getting what we deserve.

And that's our own fault is it?
THIS is what Jo Public knows of bikers, This is what forms their opinion.

http://youtu.be/IqVqCSLZL1s

Oh and this
http://youtu.be/Iggrcz4PaeI

Viewing figures up 34% for this time slot when it was on, and top five "Ondemand" in NZ...
"We don't have the general public's empathy..." Oh Please!

Katman

9th January 2012, 20:40

"We don't have the general public's empathy..." Oh Please!

If you were one of the driving forces behind MAG, no wonder it went down the shitter.

NONONO

9th January 2012, 20:45

StoneY

10th January 2012, 05:39

Me? shows you know nothing.
Well? Rather than just throwing out insults, how you going to counter publicity like that?
How are you going to make this biker friendly world come about?
Full of the usual, again.

Save your breath mate the only thing Steve will ever absorb is a punch in the face.
He is beyond reasoning with anyone and has NEVER stepped up to the batting plate anywhere except on these forum pages.

When he has opened a website, created an organisation, spent time in rooms with the gubbermint officials, written proposals, managed national campaigns, organised some protest, maybe then he would have some right to espouse the constant haranguing of his own kind the way he does.

Until then he is just a fuckwit, a big mouth, and a pain in the arse to anyone who wont bow to his epically overzealous self flagellating attacks, insults, and attempts to sound sagacious and knowledgeable.

Bring on the infringements!

swbarnett

10th January 2012, 11:21

That is precisely why we need the general public on our side.
What's the point of having the general public on our side if we have to betray our own identity to do it?

We don't have the numbers by ourselves to cause the powers that be any lost sleep.
If everyone who owns a motorcycle and/or holds a current motorcycle license were to join in I think we would.

The 'Who's Next?' campaign had real merit but was doomed to failure because we don't have the general public's empathy. We are generally being seen as getting what we deserve.
I don't want the general public's empathy if we have to confirm to do it. I want their empathy because they respect our right to be different. In esscence, I want their tolerance, with or without their empathy.

Katman

10th January 2012, 11:49

What's the point of having the general public on our side if we have to betray our own identity to do it?

If everyone who owns a motorcycle and/or holds a current motorcycle license were to join in I think we would.

I don't want the general public's empathy if we have to confirm to do it. I want their empathy because they respect our right to be different. In esscence, I want their tolerance, with or without their empathy.

So let me get this straight......

You don't want your motorcycling freedom to be further eroded and you believe that a handful of motorcyclists jumping up and down like retarded prima donnas is going to prevent it?

Fuck me, you're way more deluded than I'll ever be.

Maha

10th January 2012, 12:16

'The 'Who's Next?' campaign had real merit but was doomed to failure because we don't have the general public's empathy'

....and Apathy in part Steve, from those who ride bikes.
We tried and tried again as the Auckland Action Group but...as each protest ride was presented, the turnout got less and less.
I guess Bikers just got sick of the 'No Result' time after time...
To much talking and no ...in your face action...everytime the mere thought of disruption was put forward...the feet started to chill in very large numbers.
I for one will never again devote any of my time to the issues raised.
There seems to be only a handfull who give shit now...it will be a very very hard slog for the same result as before.

Peace....:niceone:

skippa1

10th January 2012, 12:16

Save your breath mate the only thing Steve will ever absorb is a punch in the face.
He is beyond reasoning with anyone and has NEVER stepped up to the batting plate anywhere except on these forum pages.

When he has opened a website, created an organisation, spent time in rooms with the gubbermint officials, written proposals, managed national campaigns, organised some protest, maybe then he would have some right to espouse the constant haranguing of his own kind the way he does.

Until then he is just a fuckwit, a big mouth, and a pain in the arse to anyone who wont bow to his epically overzealous self flagellating attacks, insults, and attempts to sound sagacious and knowledgeable.

Bring on the infringements!

All that truth right there just earned you some bling:yes:

swbarnett

10th January 2012, 13:51

So let me get this straight......

You don't want your motorcycling freedom to be further eroded and you believe that a handful of motorcyclists jumping up and down like retarded prima donnas is going to prevent it?
No, not a handful. I'm talking about a concerted effort by all (or nearly all) motorcyclists.

Fuck me, you're way more deluded than I'll ever be.
Perhaps, but forgive me if I don't believe in shooting myself just to prevent someone else doing it first.

We need to fight intolerance, not condone it.

Katman

10th January 2012, 14:29

We need to fight intolerance, not condone it.

If that intolerance stems from a belief that a section of society is costing the country way more than their numbers justify then the intolerance itself is entirely understandable.

Should we tolerate welfare bludgers?

Should we tolerate boy racers?

Should we tolerate P labs?

Scuba_Steve

10th January 2012, 14:43

If that intolerance stems from a belief that a section of society is costing the country way more than their numbers justify than the intolerance itself is entirely understandable.

Should we tolerate welfare bludgers?

Should we tolerate boy racers?

Should we tolerate P labs?

Yes, fuck a hundred & 50 odd run da country. Should we like 'em? no

Yes

If you know of any? no!

Katman

10th January 2012, 15:35

Yes

So you're happy for sections of society to bleed the country dry?

swbarnett

10th January 2012, 16:22

If that intolerance stems from a belief that a section of society is costing the country way more than their numbers justify than the intolerance itself is entirely understandable.
Understandable it may be. That doesn't make it right. The value of having the right to live one's life as one sees fit while allowing all others to do the same cannot be over estimated.

Mountain climbers cost the country more than knitters on a numbers basis. Should we discriminate against mountain climbing? Perhaps ban free climbing? After all, you'd have to be a complete hoon to climb without a safety rope.

Should we tolerate welfare bludgers?
Yes. Rather a few bludgers than the cost of stopping them (both monetarily and socially).

Should we tolerate boy racers?
Yes. In the same way that I expect drivers that don't understand motorcycles to tolerate us.

Should we tolerate P labs?
Definitely. Tolerate drugs, i.e. make them legal, and the crime that surrounds drug use will disappear.

In short, the only thing that must not be tolerated is intolerance.

Katman

10th January 2012, 16:34

In short, the only thing that must not be tolerated is intolerance.

So basically you're saying that we need to fight for the right to have as many accidents as we want regardless of the cost to the country.

Can you not see how fucked in the head that sort of thinking is?

It's that sort of thinking that has gotten us in the shit that we're currently facing.

Brian d marge

10th January 2012, 16:37

If that intolerance stems from a belief that a section of society is costing the country way more than their numbers justify than the intolerance itself is entirely understandable.

Should we tolerate welfare bludgers?

Should we tolerate boy racers?

Should we tolerate P labs?
not going to retype all my posts on this
suffice to say, the technique of demonising groups to make the middle classes feel better is quite an old one
off top of hard you might find its the oldies that cost the money
Logan's run, I reckon

stephen

NONONO

10th January 2012, 18:12

So you're happy for sections of society to bleed the country dry?

And that's what you think we are doing is it? Grow up.

Katman

10th January 2012, 18:17

And that's what you think we are doing is it? Grow up.

I didn't say that, did I?

But if the powers that be decide to up the pressure on us again you can be damn sure that will be the picture they present of us to the general public.

The only way we can combat that is to have irrefutable proof of a reversal of our accident stats.

Scuba_Steve

10th January 2012, 18:25

So you're happy for sections of society to bleed the country dry?

:facepalm: the only ones "bleeding the country dry" is the Govt

So basically you're saying that we need to fight for the right to have as many accidents as we want regardless of the cost to the country.

Can you not see how fucked in the head that sort of thinking is?

It's that sort of thinking that has gotten us in the shit that we're currently facing.

why don't you head on down to an ANZAC parade next ANZAC day, jump on the mic & tell 'em all how "fucked up" fighting for freedom is. It's effectually what you saying here.

Katman

10th January 2012, 18:31

why don't you head on down to an ANZAC parade next ANZAC day, jump on the mic & tell 'em all how "fucked up" fighting for freedom is. It's effectually what you saying here.

Well they certainly didn't fight to protect a 'Fuck you Jack, I'm alright' attitude.

Brian407

10th January 2012, 19:49

Berries

10th January 2012, 20:24

To be fair, the first post was on topic.

You seem to be forgetting that this is a public forum. Getting consensus on any serious subject is not going to happen.

Virago

10th January 2012, 20:26

Conquiztador

10th January 2012, 21:16

Scuba_Steve

10th January 2012, 21:32

28 pages, 411 posts and no one fucken person can agree on anything at all !! Y'all might as well pack up yer bat and ball and fuck off home, 'cause nuttins ever going to be achieved here.

Un-fucken-believable.

Bullshit I think you'll find we all agree we like bikes & we all agree we like riding those bikes & we all agree we like KB for 1 reason or another thats 3 things right there we all agree on :yes:

But I think you'll actually find most here do agree on the main, it's just the finer we "disagree" on.
Like God religions, they all believe there is a god it just the finer points they argue on. This is human nature, we like to argue. So if your not willing to accept this maybee a public forum isn't where you should be???

Brian407

10th January 2012, 22:39

So if your not willing to accept this maybee a public forum isn't where you should be???

Ya aint fucken wrong there buddy, this is the most pathetic collection of wingers ad whiners i've ever encountered in my life. Sure your not all Poms?? Planes landed, engines are off, but there's still plenty of whining. God help us if one of you actually comes up with an idea, let alone a feasible one.

Half the fuckers on this thread are most of the reason we have the problem, and the rest of you are little more than a bunch of limp wristed hand wringers who have absolutely no fucken idea what to do about it.

Good luck with that, I'll take my battle to where it counts.

nosebleed

10th January 2012, 22:57

Ahhhh I think I've finally found it, I wasn't sure where to post anymore as there are so many individual threads with the same basic message, but if we're still looking for that single/common cause that will enable bikers and their organisations to be heard and taken seriously, then I suggest that this;

in germany ...where many moons ago i learned how to drive, we all had to sit in class for about 10 hours....1 hour over a period of 10 weeks and learn "theory". Only after completing these 10 hours could one attempt to sit the 'scratchy' test. not in front of a computer alone at an AA building, but together with all the fellow learners in a class room. A week later one was given their test results....at a cost of (memory fails) $ 45 (NZ Dollar used to be 1 to 1 with DM) and Test Cost of about a $100 it was not cheap to just sit your theory.

followed by the obligatory Red Cross First Aid course....$ 100

followed by (again Memory) 15 - 20 hours of Inner City driving
followed by 6 hours Motorway (it is scary going a 140 for the first time ever....!)
followed by 6 hours Night Driving

all these hours at a cost of $45, plus an extra $100+ for the practical test it was not cheap to get the "Schein" Lisence.

And the Lisence was on probation for 2 years, fuck up and start the whole procedure again. Kaching...

And the first things we heard in theory ........Defensive Driving.......Road Side Communication.....Courtesy......if you want to get somewhere for sure, take your time.....

Posted here;

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/145702-Dangerous-roads-are-we-playing-the-blame-game?p=1130231983#post1130231983

...would fit the bill.

While Katman's point is valid, our reputation is based on generations of fuckwittery this isn't going to be undone overnight.
If our argument is that we want a more serious approach to driver licensing which includes everyone, even motorcyclists, then it'd be pretty ballsy politician that denies a hearing.

Brett

10th January 2012, 23:01

Almost as interesting as people like yourself who don't seem to give a fuck how high the toll is.

Is that really fair Katman?

StoneY

11th January 2012, 05:53

Is that really fair Katman?

He doesn't care about FAIR bro, he just wants to sound 'smart' and be inflammatory to those who HAVE done the work he is incapable of.

As on last page, he's an arrogant dickhead who slings shit at anyone who dares challenge his viewpoint.

Where the fuck are my infringements? Guess the mods don't feel he is worth infringing anyone over anymore......... :yes:

riffer

11th January 2012, 06:03

Where the fuck are my infringements? Guess the mods don't feel he is worth infringing anyone over anymore......... :yes:

Jees mate. Give them a break. It's only 0700!

Anyway, while you lot all argue, some of us are actually trying to put something together. I come on here looking for something from the public to spark my thought processes and all I get is wound up by the bickering.

Doesn't look like I'll get any input from you.

*sigh*

davereid

11th January 2012, 06:36

He doesn't care about FAIR bro, he just wants to sound 'smart' and be inflammatory to those who HAVE done the work he is incapable of.

This thread has on;y two types of posters.

Those who have actually done something.

And those who think someone else should do something else.

MSTRS

11th January 2012, 08:07

MSTRS

11th January 2012, 08:10

This thread has on;y two types of posters.

Those who have actually done something.

And those who think someone else should do something else.

http://i.istockimg.com/file_thumbview_approve/166964/2/stock-photo-166964-hammer-and-nail.jpg

yungatart

11th January 2012, 08:27

Brian407

11th January 2012, 10:59

Actually, there is a heap of us who agree that you are a cock of the first order!

Excellent, you have a consensus. Now convert that into something useful for your cause and you're halfway there.

Oh, and BTW, Good Luck with that. :laugh:

Maha

11th January 2012, 12:16

Those who have actually done something. = approx 5,000
And those who think someone else should do something else... = approx 95,000

....and that gap still remains, has done for more than three years now.

NONONO

11th January 2012, 16:08

Ya aint fucken wrong there buddy, this is the most pathetic collection of wingers ad whiners i've ever encountered in my life. Sure your not all Poms?? Planes landed, engines are off, but there's still plenty of whining. God help us if one of you actually comes up with an idea, let alone a feasible one.

Half the fuckers on this thread are most of the reason we have the problem, and the rest of you are little more than a bunch of limp wristed hand wringers who have absolutely no fucken idea what to do about it.

Good luck with that, I'll take my battle to where it counts.

Whining about whining? Hmmmm.
Why not leave us a list of the topics we can discuss and we'll try and stick to it.
Oh, don't forget to check back often, just to make sure we stay on track eh?

Virago

11th January 2012, 17:26

Ya aint fucken wrong there buddy, this is the most pathetic collection of wingers ad whiners i've ever encountered in my life. Sure your not all Poms?? Planes landed, engines are off, but there's still plenty of whining. God help us if one of you actually comes up with an idea, let alone a feasible one.

Half the fuckers on this thread are most of the reason we have the problem, and the rest of you are little more than a bunch of limp wristed hand wringers who have absolutely no fucken idea what to do about it.

Good luck with that, I'll take my battle to where it counts.

So you keep saying, but you keep coming back to contribute more whining...?

riffer

11th January 2012, 18:38

So, us guys at BRONZ are reading screeds of information, studying reports and all the information that's available from the people that are gathering information.

We're responding to as many of these things as we can, giving up countless hours of my family time to try and get somewhere.

We are attending road safety committees and trying to work with the ACC folk in the face of some scary politics.

We're talking to politicians on both sides of the centre, we're talking to bikers, we're gathering as much info as we can. We're in constant communication with NZTA, ACC, Police, local authorities and other motorcycle representatives trying our hardest to build communication links and consensus.

Exactly what have YOU contributed Brian407, other than to point out that there's no-one doing anything?

I'm not going to stop working my arse off but I am getting a little bit fucked off with your pointing out that we're not doing enough for YOU.

Brian407

11th January 2012, 20:14

I'm not going to stop working my arse off but I am getting a little bit fucked off with your pointing out that we're not doing enough for YOU.

Get over yourself ya tosser. I dont actually have too much of a problem with what we've got, because I know that we (idiot riders and riding that is) largely bought it on ourselves. Like most, I dont like the rego fee, I dont like the hiviz idea, I dont like the looming speed restrictions, but unlike most here, I can see the inevitable, and can see the absolute waste of energy and time being put into protesting against it. It's fait acompli FFS, and all thats going on here is a bunch of blow hards beating their chests, and posturing about what form the next protest is gonna take.

Some of you may have already figured this out, but just in case you havent 'PROTESTS FROM MOTORCYCLISTS DONT FUCKEN WORK'. Nobody is going to take a protest from a section of society seen as the great unwashed, seriously.

If you want to gain any credibility with the general public, and start to change minds, stop focusing on the 'raw deal' you think you're getting and start focusing on cleaning up our behaviour on the roads, and be SEEN doing it. Start building a fence at the top of the cliff FFS and stop putting the ambulance at the bottom.

As for me, well I'm doing plenty, have been all along, (letters, emails, meetings, submissions, the list goes on) but my focus is on better, and compulsory, rider/driver training and harsher penalties for fucking it up. Untill the 'Evel Knieval' clowns amongst us are stomped on in a big way we're never going to get anywhere.

Anybody with half a brain knows this. The Police certianly know it, Andy Knackstead certianly knows it, ACC certianly know it, even NZTA know it, but the major fly in the ointment is the Farmers, and for that reason alone the government are scared to go too far with it. Federated Farmers are apposed to ANY initiative that will make it harder for farm boys to get a licence, and when Fed Farmers speak up the govt listens. It you want to make any REAL headway with licence issues, you got to get it past the Feds first or it's dead in the water.

The only real sense i've seen here so far is the dude with the post about licenses in Germany, (whole heartedly gets my support for that one), and the dude who mentioned that compulsory advanced training for ACC recipients, for drivers/riders in accidents would be a good idea deserves a medal as far as i'm concerned. That is the most practical and sensible thing I've heard for a very long time. So much so, that i've already had the discussion with several of the right people and made a number of submissions on the subject.

Watch this space, I'm told it might just work.

Malign and ridicule me as much a you like, i dont actually care. I'm perfectly happy in the knowledge that I AM stepping up and doing my bit, and i'm not relying on anyone else doing it for me.

In case any of you care to remember, the only reason i came here in the first place was to suggest that making submissions on the safer journeys document would be a good idea, and I got jumped on straight away. That told me in half a dozen posts about the general calibre of most people frequenting here, and fuck all since has caused me to change my mind.

So, NO Riffer, I'm not asking YOU what you are doing for me, didnt at the beginning and still not now, I'm doing it myself.

NONONO

11th January 2012, 20:20

You are a Kat person.

Katman

11th January 2012, 20:22

You are a Kat person.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

NONONO

11th January 2012, 20:26

Only in the real world.
loled:facepalm:

Scuba_Steve

11th January 2012, 20:27

You say that like it's a bad thing.

only if your the 99% :innocent:

Berries

11th January 2012, 20:37

As for me, well I'm doing plenty, have been all along, (letters, emails, meetings, submissions, the list goes on) but my focus is on better, and compulsory, rider/driver training and harsher penalties for fucking it up.
May I be the first to congratulate you on your success so far.

If you stopped going off on one for a minute you would find that many of the wankers on KB have been doing the same.

StoneY

12th January 2012, 05:50

Get over yourself ya tosser.

You can talk .... all your posts are pathetic.

If the letters and shit you've been writing use the same skills as your KB postings, they've simply been binned anyway.

Riffer does more work for the riders on these pages than almost anyone here.
next time you pull a motorcycle into a parking space at the curb side in Wellington, say 'Thanks Riffer'

Your an arrogant fuckwit Brian407, and a perfect example of the hot air generators we see in KB forums all the time.

Brian407

12th January 2012, 06:56

You can talk .... all your posts are pathetic.

If the letters and shit you've been writing use the same skills as your KB postings, they've simply been binned anyway.

Riffer does more work for the riders on these pages than almost anyone here.
next time you pull a motorcycle into a parking space at the curb side in Wellington, say 'Thanks Riffer'

Your an arrogant fuckwit Brian407, and a perfect example of the hot air generators we see in KB forums all the time.

Oh Pleeeaaasse... cry me a river... parking spaces in Wellington FFS. Whoopee. Next time i'm in Wellington (next week on business actually) I'll be sure to check one out. Funny thing is though, i'm pretty fucken sure we have parking spaces here too. Who should I thank for those.

I'm not decrying the work of others, dont doubt that there are some hard working people out there, but this whole idea of uniting all motorcyclists in a common cause is simply a joke. It's never going to happen, so why the fuck expend resources and time into an idea that you know wont work.

Change the focus. Said it at the start, still saying it now. Start working WITH these people instead of against them and you might make MORE progress, and a lot quicker than you think.

I'm not asking anybody what to do about it, not riffer, not mrtrs, not you, not anybody. I know what needs done, and im doing my bit.

This whole mentality that 'they're out to get us' is bullshit, and the focus on trying to 'stop them getting us' is exactly why they will 'get us'.

WAKE UP FFS.

avgas

12th January 2012, 07:45

Just checking. But has anyone successfully fixed the new ACC levy problem by writing/emails/meetings with them or the Govt?

I hear that Santa dude delivers. Try him.

As for the building a fence. No amount of meetings/emails or letters builds a fence. Either you build a fence, or you make someone else build a fence to save face. Private correspondence gets f-all done.

MSTRS

12th January 2012, 07:55

...a bunch of blow hards beating their chests, and posturing ...
http://cache2.artprintimages.com/p/LRG/56/5690/V6VUG00Z/art-print/todd-goldman-pot-kettle-black.jpg

Brian407

12th January 2012, 18:45

Private correspondence gets f-all done.

Depends entirely on who you're 'privately corresponding' with mate. There's more deals done over a beer or a cab sav in Molesworth street than there ever is in Parliment.

StoneY

13th January 2012, 05:43

I'm not decrying the work of others,

You should start reading what you write dickhead, its EXACTLY what you've been doing.....

Change the focus. Said it at the start, still saying it now. Start working WITH these people instead of against them and you might make MORE progress, and a lot quicker than you think.

What do you think BRONZ has been doing these last 2 and a half years?

Since the BIKOI we have been on several regional road safety committee's in Wellington, I was on the MOTO NZ (MSAC) and the steering group that formed it until Morgan got annoyed with me using Kiwibiker to communicate with the people on here,
The other regional BRONZ groups work tirelessly with their local councils, ACC representatives, training organizations and Police, etc etc.
Is THAT working WITH the authorities enough for you ya ignoramus muppet?

As before moron, walk a mile in the shoes of Riffer, or the MAG reps or the WIMA girls before mouthing off on this forum.
And while you may not give a toss about parking your motorcycle in Wellington city, 4,300+ signatories on Riffers e-petition sure did pal.

Brian407

13th January 2012, 07:02

You should start reading what you write dickhead, its EXACTLY what you've been doing.....

What do you think BRONZ has been doing these last 2 and a half years?

Since the BIKOI we have been on several regional road safety committee's in Wellington, I was on the MOTO NZ (MSAC) and the steering group that formed it until Morgan got annoyed with me using Kiwibiker to communicate with the people on here,
The other regional BRONZ groups work tirelessly with their local councils, ACC representatives, training organizations and Police, etc etc.
Is THAT working WITH the authorities enough for you ya ignoramus muppet?

As before moron, walk a mile in the shoes of Riffer, or the MAG reps or the WIMA girls before mouthing off on this forum.
And while you may not give a toss about parking your motorcycle in Wellington city, 4,300+ signatories on Riffers e-petition sure did pal.

Ooohhhh, I'm impressed. Sounds to me like you need a medal. Got a chest to pin it on?

4300 signatures on petition for some parking spaces. Whooppeee. Fairly insignificant issue in the greater scheme of things wouldnt you say. Scoring a concession from a local council is hardly a win. Put anything free on the table for anybody and of course you're going to get support for it.

All these groups doing stuff is great, but isnt it time they learned to play together, instead of against each other. Most of these groups are started by the disgruntled former members of other groups in the first place, becasue they felt they wernt being heard. Harldy a great platform to start from, is it?

Now really impress me and get a consensus from all the groups.

And then work on licences that are harder to get and easier to lose.

Oh, and BTW, I've been a member of BRONZ since the 80's.

blue rider

13th January 2012, 07:25

You are a Kat person.

not really, really, the brian407 person uses way more words....actually he is writing novellas.

fact is there is an image associated with riding that has very little to do with the people that ride bikes today. To change this perception - what to do ? I don't know, I am some random female on a skinny non offensive bike....surely I am not very scary :laugh:

I believe that the key to preventing accidents is education, (that word again), driver education, many hours of learning how to drive a car or motorbike before actually can start think of sitting the test. Inclusive many hours of learning the theory of how to behave in traffic, how to read traffic, how to communicate in traffic with others that also want to go somewhere.

I also believe that having to pay for the pleasure of learning how to drive/ride will add value to the license one will receive when sitting a test successfully. It then is something one has earned.

And knowing that I have to re-do the license should i behave myself like a pinhead of sorts, even sitting some "psychological assessment - idiot test' to estimate my chance of re-offending, should hopefully make one think twice before riding like nutter up and down the road scaring granny.

I also believe that 15 year old should not have a license to go on the open road, this country has enough option in transport for everyone to get everywhere if they want to. 18 is agood age, and is part of being a grown up! It might be less comfortable for the kid but seriously, little pimply kiddies riding mamas humveh teh scary!

ACC levies, why not put them on Alcohol? Why not, drink driving , family violence , bar brawl -, drunk falling into a ditch and so on and so on.

We should be able to agree that Alcohol is the cause of many if not most accidents costing the country mega dollars every year..
However I assume that the Mates of the glorious Leader The Key would disagree to such a change.

Katman

13th January 2012, 07:34

not really, really, the brian407 person uses way more words....actually he is writing novellas.

Yes, experience has taught me that words of one syllable have a greater chance of being understood on this site.

MSTRS

13th January 2012, 07:59

4300 signatures on petition for some parking spaces. Whooppeee. Fairly insignificant issue in the greater scheme of things wouldnt you say. Scoring a concession from a local council is hardly a win. Put anything free on the table for anybody and of course you're going to get support for it.

Your lacy panties are showing, you silly prat.
How about doing a little research on the parking for motorcycles issue in Welly. Not insignificant for those who work there.

yungatart

13th January 2012, 08:15

Ooohhhh, I'm impressed. Sounds to me like you need a medal. Got a chest to pin it on?

4300 signatures on petition for some parking spaces. Whooppeee. Fairly insignificant issue in the greater scheme of things wouldnt you say. Scoring a concession from a local council is hardly a win. Put anything free on the table for anybody and of course you're going to get support for it.

All these groups doing stuff is great, but isnt it time they learned to play together, instead of against each other. Most of these groups are started by the disgruntled former members of other groups in the first place, becasue they felt they wernt being heard. Harldy a great platform to start from, is it?

Now really impress me and get a consensus from all the groups.

And then work on licences that are harder to get and easier to lose.

Oh, and BTW, I've been a member of BRONZ since the 80's.

Listen up, big boy...:2guns:

You come on here insulting the intelligence of others, putting down their efforts, being obnoxious, sarcastic and downright ugly. You've only been here 5 minutes. Who on earth do you think you are?

We are sick of you and your namby pamby whining. You claim that you have done this, that and the other for the benefit of all riders...show us some proof. Everybody knows what StoneY, Riffer, Mstrs and co have done and continue to do for motorcyclists.
And being a member of BRONZ isn't enough (do you want a medal for that, or would you prefer a puffed up pigeon chest to pin it on?)...are you on the committee? Do you put your hand up when there is work to be done? I doubt it.

Why don't you just piss off like you keep saying you will, and come back when you've grown a pair...actually grow a vagina, cos they can take a real pounding.:gob:

Owl

13th January 2012, 08:21

actually grow a vagina, cos they can take a real pounding.:gob:

Wow!:shutup:

Brian407

13th January 2012, 10:08

Listen up, big boy...:2guns:

You come on here insulting the intelligence of others, putting down their efforts, being obnoxious, sarcastic and downright ugly. You've only been here 5 minutes. Who on earth do you think you are?

We are sick of you and your namby pamby whining. You claim that you have done this, that and the other for the benefit of all riders...show us some proof. Everybody knows what StoneY, Riffer, Mstrs and co have done and continue to do for motorcyclists.
And being a member of BRONZ isn't enough (do you want a medal for that, or would you prefer a puffed up pigeon chest to pin it on?)...are you on the committee? Do you put your hand up when there is work to be done? I doubt it.

Why don't you just piss off like you keep saying you will, and come back when you've grown a pair...actually grow a vagina, cos they can take a real pounding.:gob:

Now THAT sounds like ruffled panties to me. :laugh:

trustme

13th January 2012, 10:32

Ho Hum , another thread reduced to a bitch slap.

Get it back on track.

avgas

13th January 2012, 10:38

Depends entirely on who you're 'privately corresponding' with mate. There's more deals done over a beer or a cab sav in Molesworth street than there ever is in Parliment.
You're not wrong.
That's called Negotiating.
To Negotiate we have to have something to offer. The only way I see that happening is either a) we take something away they take for granted or b) we come up with something new that they want/need.

As you can see I have "built a few fences" in the past. So when I say "we're fucked" I don't do so light-heartedly.
Either we attack back with 'a'.........unless someone can come up with a genuine 'b'.
Neither a nor b happens with paper work.

trustme

13th January 2012, 10:55

You're not wrong.
That's called Negotiating.
To Negotiate we have to have something to offer. The only way I see that happening is either a) we take something away they take for granted or b) we come up with something new that they want/need.

As you can see I have "built a few fences" in the past. So when I say "we're fucked" I don't do so light-heartedly.
Either we attack back with 'a'.........unless someone can come up with a genuine 'b'.
Neither a nor b happens with paper work.

Attack with what ? we are too smaller a group to really be effective.

We need a plan 'B'. give them what they want which is a reduced accident rate for motorcyclists.

Ultimately the answer is in our own hands.

Yeah yeah, I sound like Katman

davereid

13th January 2012, 10:56

I believe that the key to preventing accidents is education, (that word again), driver education, many hours of learning how to drive a car or motorbike before actually can start think of sitting the test. Inclusive many hours of learning the theory of how to behave in traffic, how to read traffic, how to communicate in traffic with others that also want to go somewhere. I also believe that having to pay for the pleasure of learning how to drive/ride will add value to the license one will receive when sitting a test successfully. It then is something one has earned. And knowing that I have to re-do the license should i behave myself like a pinhead of sorts, even sitting some "psychological assessment - idiot test' to estimate my chance of re-offending, should hopefully make one think twice before riding like nutter up and down the road scaring granny.

The issue is that in many poorer areas of New Zealand, the rates of un-licenced drivers are soaring.

As the test has become harder and more expensive, many poorer people are finding it beyond their reach. The good ones get used to begging rides, and taking the bus.

Many drive anyway.

While we can (and do) impound vehicles, the system is actually pretty limited in its ability to sanction the really poor. We cant fine them. They don't attend community service sentences, and when we impound vehicles, they simply go and get another one as its easier and cheaper (and faster) that waiting 28 days and paying a fortune to get the old shitter back.

We end up, at massive expense, either abandoning any attempt at punishment, or we have to resort to prison.

Its not to say that we should not try and improve driver standards via the licencing system. But we have to balance the cost of putting licences out of reach.

Additionally, your Drivers Licence is your National ID card. Politicians want you on that database, and hesitate to put in measures that discourage people from paying government for an ID card.

Scuba_Steve

13th January 2012, 11:13

Ho Hum , another thread reduced to a bitch slap.

Get it back on track.

Don't think your too far wrong there
I also don't think anything to improve bike safety will come from the Govt or their departments. They just pump out ignorant "cheap" knee-jerk reactions & call it "doing something" when it's no better than a band-aid on an artery bleed.
I don't think there is a single person in a position of power (relative to roading) that is qualified to be there, not a single one. The MP certainly isn't & NZTA prove time & time again they know next to nothing about roading, licensing, driving, advertising, really anything under their control. It's a fuckup from start to finish no wonder NZ's getting worse on-road

trustme

13th January 2012, 11:46

Agreed, Andy Knucklehead has never impressed me.

People on here seem to bag MOTONZ but they seem more in touch with the real world than anyone else who has the ear of the powers that be.

As a group, riders really do have to come up with ways to improve our skills across the board. If we don't, it will be done for us.

So many of us think we know it all , we are infallible & it is everyone else's fault. The reality is somewhat different.

Berries

13th January 2012, 11:49

Agreed, Andy Knucklehead has never impressed me.
He's just the media spokesman for the organisation.

yungatart

13th January 2012, 12:02

Now THAT sounds like ruffled panties to me. :laugh:

No, I don't wear any... and if I did it would take a better man than you to ruffle them.

30 + years as a member of BRONZ...meaningless. Anyone can pay a membership fee. What have you actually done whilst a member of BRONZ?

Flip

13th January 2012, 12:21

Brian is completely wrong in his assessment and I personally don't understand where he is coming from, I suspect he had read negotiating conflict 101 and how to run a knitting committee and was looking for the job to talk to the authorities on our behalf, as I said KB is not a MC club. With the chip factory on his shoulder he wouldn't last 10 minutes.

I am very happy with the work Ulysses and Bronz have done on my behalf, I would like to see some Bronz and Hog reprentisation on the MotoNZ group. I was very sorry when StoneY got the flick, it showed to me that Dr Gareth Morgan (who I personally don't like or trust) is not the man for the job if he couldn't keep his team together.

Another point is I pay $300 a year medical and income insurance cover in the event I have a bike accident, sounds like a great deal to me.

MSTRS

13th January 2012, 12:23

No, I don't wear any... and if I did it would take a better man than you to ruffle them.

30 + years as a member of BRONZ...meaningless. Anyone can pay a membership fee. What have you actually done whilst a member of BRONZ?

Settle down. He's told us already. He's...wait for it...wait for it...lobbied people. Obviously with HUGE success too...

blue rider

13th January 2012, 12:44

Listen up, big boy...:2guns:

...actually grow a vagina, cos they can take a real pounding.:gob:

thank you thank you thank you ......you made this day special.
best quote ever...!:love:

avgas

13th January 2012, 14:08

Attack with what ? we are too smaller a group to really be effective.
We need a plan 'B'. give them what they want which is a reduced accident rate for motorcyclists.
Ultimately the answer is in our own hands.
Yeah yeah, I sound like Katman
Actually that isn't worth anything to them either.
They can stop "all" motorbike accidents as well - by banning bikes. So if they really wanted it, it would already be done.
The reality is they like money. Currently motorcyclists pay more than they claim. So its a cash cow.
As I said before, We're fucked.

Katman

13th January 2012, 14:31

Actually that isn't worth anything to them either.
They can stop "all" motorbike accidents as well - by banning bikes. So if they really wanted it, it would already be done.
The reality is they like money. Currently motorcyclists pay more than they claim. So its a cash cow.
As I said before, We're fucked.

Shit, and I thought I had a bleak outlook for the future. :shit:

If the rumours of 2050 are to be believed then yes, the writing is on the wall for us.

The only way to combat that is to see the number of motorcyclists increase dramatically.

The only way that is going to happen is if we get the public on side and start to entice more and more of them into motorcycling.

Trouble is, there's a group within motorcycling who don't want to see motorcycling becoming more mainstream.

The reality is though that that is the only way motorcycling will survive.

davereid

13th January 2012, 15:03

The only way to combat that is to see the number of motorcyclists increase dramatically. The only way that is going to happen is if we get the public on side and start to entice more and more of them into motorcycling.

I have checked for a bump on the head, I don't seem to have one, but I am agreeing with Katman.

When I was a kid, it was my mother who taught me to ride. Cars were expensive, and for many families the bus or a motorcycle was the only transport available. I remember watching mum hopping on her scooter, freezing Christchurch winter day to go to work.

The future however may be a return to the past. The capital cost of a car or motorcycle is not going to be the limitation. In the future, parking, congestion, and fuel costs will become an increasing issue for many.

Small, economical and environmentally friendly motorcycles are going to become an attractive option for many.

Thats actually where our motorcycle levy would be best spent. Helping people onto that first motorcycle.

I'm currently working on my safer roads consultation document. And I'm also putting together some resources to demonstrate the financial and environmental advantages of small motorcycles.

I was actually quite amazed at just how good modern small motorcycles have become, and equally amazed at how much poorly researched "science" exists which demotes the very good environmental advantages of small motorbikes.

StoneY

13th January 2012, 15:57

I was actually quite amazed at just how good modern small motorcycles have become, and equally amazed at how much poorly researched "science" exists which demotes the very good environmental advantages of small motorbikes.

Yeah my 916 (my smallest bike) rocks :)
One thing we must retain for our own identity and individuality, is the right to choose your ride.

But I do agree, the smaller bikes are simply amazing these days.

Berries

13th January 2012, 16:42

If the rumours of 2050 are to be believed then yes, the writing is on the wall for us.
Having spent time at the MOT, LTSA in the Tony Bliss days, LTNZ, Police and ACC head offices discussing road safety over the last 15 years I still don't believe that rumour.

How did it start again?

blue rider

13th January 2012, 16:51

The only way to combat that is to see the number of motorcyclists increase dramatically.

The only way that is going to happen is if we get the public on side and start to entice more and more of them into motorcycling.

This is already happening, the amount of small bikes and scooters in Auckland has dramatically increased over the last two years.
Gasoline is just going up in costs that is given, and not everyone who can't afford a car will go for the pushbike or the bus.....it is the small bike/scooter which will be the viable option.
However a lot of those on scooter are suicidal it appears, any wear will do, no safety aspects at all, no training required etc. etc.

Katman

13th January 2012, 17:37

Having spent time at the MOT, LTSA in the Tony Bliss days, LTNZ, Police and ACC head offices discussing road safety over the last 15 years I still don't believe that rumour.

How did it start again?

I believe this was the start of it.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/114107-So-who-is-behind-it-all?p=1129551114#post1129551114

Whether there is any real truth in it or not, I believe it would be prudent to seriously consider the possibility and work toward ensuring the idea doesn't gather any momentum.

Virago

13th January 2012, 19:55

...I dont care if your talking motorcyclists or kindergarten kids, everybody can become united in the pursuit of a common goal. Trick is to make the goal worth pursuing, and thats never going to happen on this forum...

...I'm not decrying the work of others, dont doubt that there are some hard working people out there, but this whole idea of uniting all motorcyclists in a common cause is simply a joke. It's never going to happen, so why the fuck expend resources and time into an idea that you know wont work...

...All these groups doing stuff is great, but isnt it time they learned to play together, instead of against each other. Most of these groups are started by the disgruntled former members of other groups in the first place, becasue they felt they wernt being heard. Harldy a great platform to start from, is it?

Now really impress me and get a consensus from all the groups...

Contradictory much...?

Brian407

14th January 2012, 09:58

Contradictory much...?

Ummmm, are you a fuckwit or what. I think the first quote made it clear that everyone, even children, are capable of uniting for a common goal, and the next two make it clear that no fucker here can agree on what the common goal is so no unity is ever going to happen.

And dont just trot out the frequent diatribe that all motorcyclists want equality, or no ACC, or no rules or whatever, because as a goal thats far too broad to be of any fucken use whatsoever. Your goal might to take over the world, but you've got to have a few smaller goals to achieve along the way or it's never going to happen.

You can cut and paste quotes till the cows come home for all I care, at least it proves you're reading them, and who knows, maybe, just maybe, you'll find something useful in them. But, at the end of the day, I dont really care because, at the beginning, I was told this forum was a waste of time, and many on it are simply a waste of oxygen and couldnt see the light if it was shining directly in their face, and they were right.

bikaholic

14th January 2012, 10:09

Ummmm, are you a fuckwit or what. I think the first quote made it clear that everyone, even children, are capable of uniting for a common goal, and the next two make it clear that no fucker here can agree on what the common goal is so no unity is ever going to happen.

And dont just trot out the frequent diatribe that all motorcyclists want equality, or no ACC, or no rules or whatever, because as a goal thats far too broad to be of any fucken use whatsoever. Your goal might to take over the world, but you've got to have a few smaller goals to achieve along the way or it's never going to happen.

You can cut and paste quotes till the cows come home for all I care, at least it proves you're reading them, and who knows, maybe, just maybe, you'll find something useful in them. But, at the end of the day, I dont really care because, at the beginning, I was told this forum was a waste of time, and many on it are simply a waste of oxygen and couldnt see the light if it was shining directly in their face, and they were right.One minute you are saying the FF won't want anything harder from farmboys to get licences, nek minnit you are advocating the german licence system, contradiction.

talk to the hand.

Virago

14th January 2012, 11:47

Ummmm, are you a fuckwit or what. I think the first quote made it clear that everyone, even children, are capable of uniting for a common goal, and the next two make it clear that no fucker here can agree on what the common goal is so no unity is ever going to happen.

And dont just trot out the frequent diatribe that all motorcyclists want equality, or no ACC, or no rules or whatever, because as a goal thats far too broad to be of any fucken use whatsoever. Your goal might to take over the world, but you've got to have a few smaller goals to achieve along the way or it's never going to happen.

You can cut and paste quotes till the cows come home for all I care, at least it proves you're reading them, and who knows, maybe, just maybe, you'll find something useful in them. But, at the end of the day, I dont really care because, at the beginning, I was told this forum was a waste of time, and many on it are simply a waste of oxygen and couldnt see the light if it was shining directly in their face, and they were right.

At the end of the day, all you have to offer is insults and contradictory diatribe. Nothing else.

You have a low opinion of forum users. But you are one yourself - and despite your constant derisive claims that you're out of here to go and do your good works where it matters, you keep coming back to offer up more abuse. Who's the fuckwit...?

As Hitcher said earlier, the other forum users will see you for what you are, and will treat you accordingly.

If you want to be taken seriously, either put up, or shut up. Show us what you've got - 'cause so far it's just hot air and finger-pointing.

riffer

14th January 2012, 14:53

I'll second that Virago.

Full disclosure time Brian. I'll go first.

My name's Simon Gotlieb. I'm a Ulysses and BRONZ member, I'm on the Wellington BRONZ Executive Team and I'm a BRONZ Federation representative. I've been on motorcycles since the age of 8, been riding them since I was 12. I'm nearly 45.

My role at BRONZ is primarily Media Liaison and Comms, I also assist with meeting and talking to politicians, responding to RFPs, creating OIA requests, writing reports to committees and organisations (including Government ones) and sometimes I front up and represent BRONZ publicly when bikers issues are under threat (like at Parliament and at City Council when they try and take away bikers parking).

Tell us, what exactly have you been doing? Perhaps if we actually knew what you did we'd be able to find common ground to work together.

Simon (riffer)

Brian407

14th January 2012, 17:33

One minute you are saying the FF won't want anything harder from farmboys to get licences, nek minnit you are advocating the german licence system, contradiction.

talk to the hand.

Do you not read?? Of course I'm saying that the Feds dont want to play ball, but i'm not saying i agree with them ! Abso-fucken-lutely i'm advocating the German system, or similair. How is that contradictory????

bikaholic

14th January 2012, 19:50

... but the major fly in the ointment is the Farmers, and for that reason alone the government are scared to go too far with it. Federated Farmers are apposed to ANY initiative that will make it harder for farm boys to get a licence, and when Fed Farmers speak up the govt listens. It you want to make any REAL headway with licence issues, you got to get it past the Feds first or it's dead in the water.

.Where is the source for this crap?

GrayWolf

14th January 2012, 21:29

One minute you are saying the FF won't want anything harder from farmboys to get licences, nek minnit you are advocating the german licence system, contradiction.

talk to the hand.

The european style licence system is one worth considering. We are heading towards the LAM's bikes and it's a natural progression from that idea. I know that there will always be outcry about restricting acess to high power machines, hell I know I would have 'hated it' many moons ago. We all have issues with govt proposals and the way bikes are percieved by TPTB. Really in truth if you look back over the last 40yrs bikes have become exponentialy more powerful and the training is no better. If we all put ego aside, the acceleration of the average 600cc plus bike is faster than we can react in the event of an emergency. Would stepping the licence to include extra training, experience and a test before accessing higher power machines be so disgusting? To put it into a real life view, the average 600cc sport bike will make the old 'king' ZI 900 look like a bloody moped for performance. That bike was considered 'overkill' for power back then. It is only 'demand' ego?? that has kept the forward march for faster and faster machines. Yes racing does improve the breed, but really at the cost of 'usable' performance. Most 600cc plus bikes are into licence losing territory even before they are operating at optimum in top gear. BMW produced quite acceptable performance even with the 100bhp limit imposed by the german govt. Yet most here will sneer and call them underpowered bikes. Well sometimes those 'underpowered' bikes have their own attributes that can be as exciting to explore.

riffer

14th January 2012, 22:53

There is a lot to commend in the concept of the step beyond Full licence, and regular readers probably already know my opinion of the idea.
Whether or not other motorcyclists accept it (or even agree) is another matter.

NONONO

15th January 2012, 06:23

The issue is that in many poorer areas of New Zealand, the rates of un-licenced drivers are soaring.

As the test has become harder and more expensive, many poorer people are finding it beyond their reach. The good ones get used to begging rides, and taking the bus.

Many drive anyway.

While we can (and do) impound vehicles, the system is actually pretty limited in its ability to sanction the really poor. We cant fine them. They don't attend community service sentences, and when we impound vehicles, they simply go and get another one as its easier and cheaper (and faster) that waiting 28 days and paying a fortune to get the old shitter back.

We end up, at massive expense, either abandoning any attempt at punishment, or we have to resort to prison.

Its not to say that we should not try and improve driver standards via the licencing system. But we have to balance the cost of putting licences out of reach.

Additionally, your Drivers Licence is your National ID card. Politicians want you on that database, and hesitate to put in measures that discourage people from paying government for an ID card.

Great post.
And in addition...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7982547.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7982547.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8582141.stm
All have been posted before, but easy to forget in the face of all this "common sense".

davereid

15th January 2012, 10:27

Its actually already happened.

As Kaitaia didn't have traffic lights to do the new test, the NZTA wants everyone to go a hundred miles to do a test at another town.

Of course the Kaitaia drivers once they have sat their test wont have to face another set of traffic lights, possibly for years.

The real hazards they will face like wandering stock, horses, metal roads, milk tankers and logging trucks, will remain untested.

The outcome ?

No one in Kaitaia will be a better driver. And lots simply wont bother with what has become a complicated and expensive urban driving test for complicated rural roads.

In fact Im sure the "Northern Advocate" published the fact that since the test had moved, NO ONE had bothered to sit it, but as always, when you want to find it, google lets you down.

Madness

15th January 2012, 11:03

I thought Brain had fucked off? :corn:

riffer

15th January 2012, 11:15

I thought Brain had fucked people off? :corn:

There. Fixed your post for you.

NONONO

15th January 2012, 11:40

Brian407

15th January 2012, 12:02

Where is the source for this crap?

http://www.fedfarm.org.nz/flybeforedrive

Read it and weep, then do some of your own research. Theres plenty of it out there. But i'm guessing your a farmer, and everbody knows Farmers cant be criticised.

James Deuce

15th January 2012, 12:03

It's the TV license all over again.

Scuba_Steve

15th January 2012, 13:28

http://www.fedfarm.org.nz/flybeforedrive

Read it and weep, then do some of your own research. Theres plenty of it out there. But i'm guessing your a farmer, and everbody knows Farmers cant be criticised.

did you even read it??? This is about raising the age, not the test itself. Infact they even say -

""What Federated Farmers wants, is to keep the driving age at 15 and give our young people enhanced training and more practical experience from an earlier age."

James Deuce

15th January 2012, 14:38

Nah. Farmers are just after unpaid workers who will clear 4 hectares of gorse for the opportunity to drive the ute into town to pick up 400l of drench. They call these workers "son" and "daughter".

Brian407

15th January 2012, 14:54

did you even read it??? This is about raising the age, not the test itself. Infact they even say -

""What Federated Farmers wants, is to keep the driving age at 15 and give our young people enhanced training and more practical experience from an earlier age."

Read further dickhead, theres plenty of releases on that site where they contradict themselves, by one minute supporting more training then the next minute opposing anything that takes longer. And of course, there was the widely publicised oposition on national TV and print media by Don Nicholson (former prez) where he basically said that any government that made it harder for farm boys to get licences would "risk loosing the support of farmers" and now Bruce Wills is saying the same thing, or were you asleep when that was going on.

Brian407

15th January 2012, 14:55

Not my problem if you choose to read only HALF the info available, and then quote things out of context.

Hitcher

15th January 2012, 14:57

Read further dickhead

I thought you said you were leaving?

Brian407

15th January 2012, 15:00

Nah, you'd miss me. Couldnt have that.

riffer

15th January 2012, 15:06

I'm curious to find out whether you are going to respond to my post, or whether your entire contribution to motorcycling is, in fact, ad hominem dressed up as debate?

Brian407

15th January 2012, 15:14

While i'd love to respond to your taunt, at present I'm not in a position to do so. Draw your own conclusions from that but I can hear the 'raucous laughter, and the "I told you he had nothing"s from here. All I can say to that is you're wrong, couldnt be more wrong, but you'll believe what you want.

Scuba_Steve

15th January 2012, 18:24

Read further dickhead, theres plenty of releases on that site where they contradict themselves, by one minute supporting more training then the next minute opposing anything that takes longer. And of course, there was the widely publicised oposition on national TV and print media by Don Nicholson (former prez) where he basically said that any government that made it harder for farm boys to get licences would "risk loosing the support of farmers" and now Bruce Wills is saying the same thing, or were you asleep when that was going on.

I read the link you posted Mr N. Smith, the whole 1 page of it. I'm not about to waste my time going through every article on the site just to prove what I already know. That you have no fucking idea what your on about.

bikaholic

15th January 2012, 18:42

I read the link you posted Mr N. Smith, the whole 1 page of it. I'm not about to waste my time going through every article on the site just to prove what I already know. That you have no fucking idea what your on about.Here's the final submission from the Feds on safer journeys http://www.fedfarm.org.nz/f2679,103126/103126_Driver_Licensing_Final_Submission.pdf
I don't think it is much different than posted on here, withstanding the fact the fact that all the arguements are in the detail, and the submissions are not the place for that.

I was expecting correspondence between the feds and himself, but it is obvious in 30 years of bronz brian has done nothing.
'Raucious laughter happening'.

davereid

15th January 2012, 18:56

Here's the final submission from the Feds on safer journeys http://www.fedfarm.org.nz/f2679,103126/103126_Driver_Licensing_Final_Submission.pdf

Safer journeys is a (pair) of different documents - that submission was on the last P.O.S. the NZTA did.

Interestingly it offered clear (if unsupported) evidence that the age at which one gets a licence is way less important in terms of road safety than the number of years that one has held the licence.

So it will remain to be seen if the change in age simply bumps up the age at which we have accidents.

riffer

15th January 2012, 18:57

I was expecting correspondence between the feds and himself, but it is obvious in 30 years of bronz brian has done nothing.
'Raucious laughter happening'.

Well he certainly hasn't done anything I've heard of. I stand ready to be corrected though. However, neither myself nor my father in law, who used to do the same thing in BRONZ that I do now (and CAN remember BRONZ of many years ago), can remember anything about him.

Brian407

15th January 2012, 19:09

Interestingly enough, there doesnt seem to be too much in the way of gigantic leaps forward from anyone else here either. Despite all your posturing were still paying 600 dollar regos and staring down the barrel of hiviz, any colour you like as long as its white helmets and reduced speed limits, yet the real issue of better and tougher licensing has barely been touched.

Well Done I Say.

bikaholic

15th January 2012, 19:12

Safer journeys is a (pair) of different documents - that submission was on the last P.O.S. the NZTA did.

Interestingly it offered clear (if unsupported) evidence that the age at which one gets a licence is way less important in terms of road safety than the number of years that one has held the licence.

So it will remain to be seen if the change in age simply bumps up the age at which we have accidents.Well the Government usually takes the most economical approach, raising the age is easy, just like forstalling the unemployment school leaver gap.
But interesting in the PPL scenario as posted by Brian, once the basic tasks are competent, and one can land a plane, the A-cat CFI judges you when competent to fly solo, and at the end of the day that is all that is need to fly by yourself. This can happen from as little as 7 hours dual instruction.

bogan

15th January 2012, 19:19

bikaholic

15th January 2012, 19:21

Well he certainly hasn't done anything I've heard of. I stand ready to be corrected though. However, neither myself nor my father in law, who used to do the same thing in BRONZ that I do now (and CAN remember BRONZ of many years ago), can remember anything about him.actually riffer, I take my hat off to you, all that after hours unthanked work. I looked at joining Bronz, but the website doesn't do it justice. Some or most of the other organisations, pressure groups, communities what ever their handle have fulltime paid advocates and proffessionals and meaningful subscriptions.
I'm starting to think to think that, that is the elephant in the room, when you consider what we are up against as individuals.

Scuba_Steve

15th January 2012, 19:21

Safer journeys is a (pair) of different documents - that submission was on the last P.O.S. the NZTA did.

Interestingly it offered clear (if unsupported) evidence that the age at which one gets a licence is way less important in terms of road safety than the number of years that one has held the licence.

So it will remain to be seen if the change in age simply bumps up the age at which we have accidents.

You won't it was never the age, it's the "ego trip" short of making the age 30, the age of licence won't achieve anything as it's got nothing to do with why they crashed. Crashes were both from the learning, but more from the "ego stroking" they get out with their mates in the car & "hey check what I can do" nek minut...
In-fact your probably better off giving them proper training & a licence at 13 so but the time the "ego years" hit (16-24) they should have sufficient knowledge/skill that when they do attempt to "stroke their ego" they don't fuckup or fuckup as badly.