Road Code for Riders in NZ: how good is it?

[metagoo]

Hi all,

I just sat a learners test, and while I did ok (been riding for 30 years in other countries), some of the question/annswers seemed really dubious. So just putting this out there to see what experienced riders think. Here are three examples:

1. When riding with a pillion passenger, which is more important:
A. Remember that it will take longer to accelerate/stop
B. Get the passenger to hold on tightly
What would you all answer? Forget what the road code says - what advice would YOU give a new rider? My point is that with today's 250cc bikes, we're using a fraction of the power, so pulling off is no problem, and with a pillion passenger I am already riding slower and safer and allowing for longer braking - not because of the load, but because my passenger is possibly not going to be used to how quickly I change speed and direction usually. My biggest concern is that the passenger holds on tight (not necessarily to me of course) and does not leave the bike. To ensure this happens, I'll moderate my riding. So answer A is secondary to answer B. But in the road code, answer A is more correct. What do KB'ers think?

2. Which brake is more powerful - front or rear?
Road code says front. But what does 'powerful' mean? Does it mean which wheel stops you quicker? Is this even useful question? We brake with both wheels in balance, more caution on the front. On a light bike like a 250cc maybe shift weight back to put traction on the rear. The front has more psi on the disks perhaps, but a front wheel slide is really bad news. The rear has more contact with the road and a slide is more manageable. PSI might not be relevant - both wheels could lock if we applied full force. So in the road code we're telling learners that the front brake is more powerful, but what are we actually telling them here? I presume the point is to understand the braking power of a bike. Any opinion? I think this question is pointless at best and misleading at worst.

3. When riding in groups, where should learner riders be placed?
Road code says just behind the leader. I've seen first-hand a learner lose concentration and run into the back of a bike, putting two bikes and three people sideways across the tarmac with a dozen bikes coming up behind. We've all seen youtube videos of cyclists and bikes going down and causing carnage. Where would you tell a learner rider to sit in a group? My view is, at the back where everything is in front of them and they don't need to be as aware of bikes left, right, in front and behind. But, open to wisdom here. What do we advise for rallies for example?

I understand that the road code is something to just be studied and regurgitated. But for new riders, that becomes their wisdom. Any opinion here, and any other examples where the code might need another look?

[metagoo]

LTNZ put this draft paper out a year ago, and it seems to take a fresher look at some road code points - for example, group riding (put the learners on the inside left)

http://www.nzta.govt.nz/consultation/draft-safer-journeys-for-motorcycling-guide/index.html

[george formby]

Weeeeee'll

I reckon A, regardless of how hard the pillion is holding on sudden acceleration or mis-judging braking distance because of the extra weight can lead to a topple. So awareness of this most important.

B, most of the time the front brake works the best, again, important for a learner to know. Reading what is required in the learner part of the test it say's the rider must stop in a curve using the front & rear brake, coming to a halt before putting the feet down. So I guess use of both is covered.

C, a learner is safer behind the lead rider if the other riders in the group keep their distance. Playing catch up from the back is risky for a noob.

Just my humble opinion.
I'm helping somebody get into bikes at the moment & putting a lot of thought into how & what I teach. I think the road code is deliberately kept simple to get riders started safely. It would be very difficult for noobs if they had to learn Twist of the Wrist to pass the test. Maybe not a bad thing though.

[MSTRS]

1. Takes longer to etc...

2. Front brake provides most of a bike's stopping power. Question isn't really misleading, but could be worded better.

3. Where should the learner be?

By being at the front, the learner sets the pace and the more experienced rider is in a better position to observe what is going on with the learner. In my opinion, the learner should be in the left wheel track and the follower in the right.

However, this question is probably looking for the answer = learner behind. TPTB probably think that a following motorist should be seeing an L plate in front of them.

[Katman]

(been riding for 30 years in other countries)

It doesn't sound like it.

[metagoo]

ok, cool. this is an education, thanks

This link http://www.rideforever.co.nz/going-for-a-ride/group-riding/technique/ coupled with the link I posted earlier, basically says that new riders in a group should be on the left near the front. That makes sense - like it. So the code is not too bad in that respect.

My practical braking is probably not wrong, but I am not conscious enough of what I'm actually doing. When I apply both brakes, I'm doing more than just stopping, and I don't just use brakes to stop. But speaking only about applying brakes to slow the bike - yes, the front is doing more work in terms of braking. I just took a ride and had a think about what I was doing ...

Still not convinced about the pillion question.

[oneofsix]

I agree with all the road code answers.
I suspect your trouble is you are 'skipping' the basics and thinking ahead of the learner because this is already second nature.
You may be only using a fraction of the 250s power etc but the added weight still makes a difference and providing you are smooth the pillion will go with the bike. Some times the hardest thing is teaching them not to hold on for dear life and not to resist the bike.
As the front dives under braking the front is where it all happens. Hence why most modern bikes have double disks at the front and not the back. It isn't just because of the chain or drive train, that can be worked around, it is because the braking mainly happens at the front.
The learner should be at the front of the pack, behind the leader for multiple reasons but the chief are setting the speed, so the leader can be aware of them and all convoys/groups are faster and brake harder at the rear by their very nature. I guess there are people on here that have driven army convoys and observed this as well as those that have been at the back and awake enough to work out what was happening on group rides.

[nodrog]

yeah you are right, im going to disconnect my front brakes, and tell me pillions not to hold on, while i dump the cluth as fast as i can at the traffic lights, and hopefully they dont get run over by the learner rider trying to catch up with his mates :facepalm:

[metagoo]

Easy mate, No need for that. I said I'd ridden in several countries over 30 years. No claim to being a good rider was made ;0) why do you think I'm here asking questions of more experienced riders?

Being open to learning, being curious, questioning that's what keeps us safe. Stay out of the conversation if you have nothing actually useful to add

[MSTRS]

Easy mate, No need for that. ... Stay out of the conversation if you have nothing actually useful to add

You're new round these parts, aren't you?
DB is much more helpful - I'm sure he will be along shortly to teach you all you need to know.

[metagoo]

useful stuff tx

[george formby]

ok, cool. this is an education, thanks

This link http://www.rideforever.co.nz/going-for-a-ride/group-riding/technique/ coupled with the link I posted earlier, basically says that new riders in a group should be on the left near the front. That makes sense - like it. So the code is not too bad in that respect.

My practical braking is probably not wrong, but I am not conscious enough of what I'm actually doing. When I apply both brakes, I'm doing more than just stopping, and I don't just use brakes to stop. But speaking only about applying brakes to slow the bike - yes, the front is doing more work in terms of braking. I just took a ride and had a think about what I was doing ...

Still not convinced about the pillion question.

This is my dilemma in teaching somebody, not just the how but importantly the why. I'm getting advice & info from everywhere I can & deliberately doing the same things so I can explain them clearly.
I've realised that you need to know a helluva lot to ride a bike safely compared to a car, cars don't fall over.

The road position for a noob in a group is a head scratcher, but I guess you have to start somewhere. I believe a rider needs to use the whole of their lane to maximise visibilty & gain the biggest safety margins. Probably why I don't enjoy riding in bunched up groups.

[metagoo]

yeah when I was 16 and given an unlimited size, non-expiring bike licence, I just accepted everything i was told (and it was not all good advice) and passed my tests etc. Now thirty years later and it's opposite - the advice is good, but I've learned to question everything and try to rationalise it several levels down. So that makes me a hard student in some ways. No argument there ;0) I need to ride with newer eyes maybe though

[metagoo]

You're new round these parts, aren't you?
DB is much more helpful - I'm sure he will be along shortly to teach you all you need to know.

Aaah, DB yes. That'll keep me safe as houses

[MSTRS]

No no cookieboy...not beer goggles...DangerousBastard

[allycatz]

This is my dilemma in teaching somebody, not just the how but importantly the why. I'm getting advice & info from everywhere I can & deliberately doing the same things so I can explain them clearly.
I've realised that you need to know a helluva lot to ride a bike safely compared to a car, cars don't fall over.

The road position for a noob in a group is a head scratcher, but I guess you have to start somewhere. I believe a rider needs to use the whole of their lane to maximise visibilty & gain the biggest safety margins. Probably why I don't enjoy riding in bunched up groups.

My partner of 39 years riding experience has spent the last few weekends teaching me to ride my wee Scorpio. First mistake he made was assuming I would just jump on and cruise away....yeah right. Whilst he has been very helpful he has admitted that hes assumed I should know alot of things about riding thereby taking for granted that I would do it right the first time. Quite simply, he forgot what it was like to be a learner. He has the patience of a saint but I have still boooked myself into the Learn to Ride course before the BHS test next week because I know theres a lot of detail Ive yet to grasp and he wont think of

[george formby]

My partner of 39 years riding experience has spent the last few weekends teaching me to ride my wee Scorpio. First mistake he made was assuming I would just jump on and cruise away....yeah right. Whilst he has been very helpful he has admitted that hes assumed I should know alot of things about riding thereby taking for granted that I would do it right the first time. Quite simply, he forgot what it was like to be a learner. He has the patience of a saint but I have still boooked myself into the Learn to Ride course before the BHS test next week because I know theres a lot of detail Ive yet to grasp and he wont think of

Oh splendid!
My first forays on a bike were disastrous due to an assumptive teacher so I'm trying very hard not to make the same mistakes. So far so good, my GF is very happy & asks me every night "can we get the bike out?" The bugger popped a wee wheelie last night over some ruts when she thought I was not looking. She will be doing some proper training too, I know my limitations as a teacher & not having a structured program to guide her with. Getting it right, like the points the OP posed is vital for me if I'm sending my beloved out on the road.

[allycatz]

Oh splendid!
My first forays on a bike were disastrous due to an assumptive teacher so I'm trying very hard not to make the same mistakes. So far so good, my GF is very happy & asks me every night "can we get the bike out?" The bugger popped a wee wheelie last night over some ruts when she thought I was not looking. She will be doing some proper training too, I know my limitations as a teacher & not having a structured program to guide her with. Getting it right, like the points the OP posed is vital for me if I'm sending my beloved out on the road.

My first attempts at riding two years resulted in a cracked ankle ( a different bike) so Ive had a total horror of the throttle even to the point of getting the new bike out one day, sitting on it for ten minutes, finally getting off and stomping home again. Partner politely suggested "Some people shouldn't ride bikes y'know" and offered to resell the bike. Following weekend I decide that was it, make or break time.......well what a wonderful hour I had. No stalls, up to 50 kms and changing gear albeit a bit messy at times but finally something clicked and I can't wait to get back on it.....so onwards and upwards. I guess after 8 years of a chronic anxiety disorder (nearly healed) its been a case of "feel the fear and do it anyway"

[george formby]

My first attempts at riding two years resulted in a cracked ankle ( a different bike) so Ive had a total horror of the throttle even to the point of getting the new bike out one day, sitting on it for ten minutes, finally getting off and stomping home again. Partner politely suggested "Some people shouldn't ride bikes y'know" and offered to resell the bike. Following weekend I decide that was it, make or break time.......well what a wonderful hour I had. No stalls, up to 50 kms and changing gear albeit a bit messy at times but finally something clicked and I can't wait to get back on it.....so onwards and upwards. I guess after 8 years of a chronic anxiety disorder (nearly healed) its been a case of "feel the fear and do it anyway"

Good on you.
My GF took awhile to realise the clutch let you pull away, not the throttle, she was terrified of having the bike run away with her. She's getting better every day. hill starts tonight so she tells me:facepalm:

[p.dath]

1. When riding with a pillion passenger, which is more important:
A. Remember that it will take longer to accelerate/stop
B. Get the passenger to hold on tightly


I only have experience pillioning my wife (oh, and 4 of my children, ages 5 through 13). She doesn't hold tightly onto me - and I'd prefer she doesn't. If she did hold onto he tight, and I had to brake hard, she'd end up transferring all that energy through me. On the whole, I'd prefer she just flowed with the bike, like I do, and brace against the tank or the bar at the back of the bike.

Whenever I carry her I always take it more carefully. So I'd be picking 'A'.


2. Which brake is more powerful - front or rear?
Road code says front. But what does 'powerful' mean? Does it mean which wheel stops you quicker? Is this even useful question? We brake with both wheels in balance, more caution on the front.

I can't agree with you at all. I would measure "power" in this case as braking force - and the front brake clearly wins - but a long way.



3. When riding in groups, where should learner riders be placed?

I help run NASS (North Auckland Street Skills - free riding coaching for new riders). We put very new riders in the middle of the group. And the whole group rides at their pace - and it is the responsibility of the leader to control that, and tail end charly to make sure everyone makes it. This helps new riders learn lines, corner entry speeds, and lots of other things. It is allows us to afford them a degree of protection from other motorists.

We have never had an accident with a new rider in the group doing this.



I've seen first-hand a learner lose concentration and run into the back of a bike, putting two bikes and three people sideways across the tarmac with a dozen bikes coming up behind.


Perhaps the new riders were allowed to ride in formation. We brief our new riders to make sure to always ride at such a distance that you can stop short of the person in front of you, and that we prefer single file. Space is the friend of the new rider.

[Splineman]

I only have experience pillioning my wife (oh, and 4 of my children, ages 5 through 13). She doesn't hold tightly onto me - and I'd prefer she doesn't. If she did hold onto he tight, and I had to brake hard, she'd end up transferring all that energy through me. On the whole, I'd prefer she just flowed with the bike, like I do, and brace against the tank or the bar at the back of the bike.

Whenever I carry her I always take it more carefully. So I'd be picking 'A'.

Really good points p.dath. Only thing I will add is I have been hauling my wife /partner around for nearly 40yrs now and I reckon it's important for the pillion and rider to "get to know" one another. I can honestly say that excepting the extra weight I hardly know she is there. She sort of reads the road and the bike so to speak. But you still need to be aware of the weight and think ahead more.

I think the N.Z. road code is pretty good and there is heaps from ACC to help new riders. Back in my day, in Ontario Canada, it was a joke. Any size bike and a simple written test....laughable really.
Courses are well worth the money as well IMHO...

Cheers.

[skinman]

Yea I have to say if I know there is a new rider in the group i try to give them room as it can be a bit intimidating when a larger bike gets close, also it is a risk that they may wander in the lane or miss a gear or brake unexpectedly so you dont want to be too close.

[DrunkenMistake]

Hi all,

I just sat a learners test,
Any opinion here, and any other examples where the code might need another look?
Join Date
28th September 2008 - 21:23
Bike
1994 Honda RVF400 NC35
Location
Whitby, Porirua
Posts
28


Learner motorcycle riders:

can only ride motorcycles up to 250cc
cannot ride between 10pm and 5am.
cannot carry a pillion passenger.
cannot tow another vehicle.
Learner car and motorcycle drivers must display a learner (L) plate (multiple plates in the case of cars).




...


:innocent:

I found it more annoying the fact you get asked questions relevant to cars and not bikes for example, how to park a car when facing up a hill.. .. ..

[Jantar]

1. When riding with a pillion passenger, which is more important:
2. Which brake is more powerful - front or rear?
3. When riding in groups, where should learner riders be placed?

1. This one depends on how experienced the pillion is. I do thousands of km with my wife as pillion, and at times carry other less experienced pillions. Experienced pillions should be allowed to hold on where ever they are most comfortable. Inexperienced pillions should initially be advised to have one hand on the tank or grab bar if there is one, and the other hand in contact with the rider. The rider should be riding smoother and more conservatively than normal, allowing for the greater stopping distance and slower rate of change of lean.
2. No question. Front.
3. Depends on the size of the group. The less experienced riders should not be lead rider, nor tail end charlie, and it often helps to have less experienced riders interspersed with more experienced ones. This way the less experienced riders can watch the more experienced, and at the same time have an experienced rider observing and noting any bad habits.

[Berries]

On the whole, I'd prefer she just flowed with the bike, like I do, and brace against the tank

Inexperienced pillions should initially be advised to have one hand on the tank or grab bar if there is one.
In 20 odd years of riding I have only taken a pillion maybe a dozen times, but they've always sat behind me. What's all this with them bracing against the tank? Have I been sitting on the wrong seat and using the wrong pegs for all this time?

Now that's a bit of a hole in the Road Code.

[p.dath]

In 20 odd years of riding I have only taken a pillion maybe a dozen times, but they've always sat behind me. What's all this with them bracing against the tank? Have I been sitting on the wrong seat and using the wrong pegs for all this time?

Now that's a bit of a hole in the Road Code.

They reach with their hand(s) *around* you and brace their hand(s) against the tank. Then if you need to stop really quickly they are pushing against the tank and not you.

You continue to brace yourself as normal against the tank using your legs.

[Mrs Shrek]

They reach with their hand(s) *around* you and brace their hand(s) against the tank.

:rofl: Not if Shrek is the rider they don"t.......
seriously though...as a pillion for 40 yrs I have found that hands lightly on the waist or hips of the rider & staying relaxed letting the rider ride is best. That way the pillion leans with the rider not fighting the bike!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[FJRider]

Experienced pillions dont need to be told anything ... I often forget they are there ... (untill I get a slap on the side of my helmet :eek:)

It does take a little longer to get going/stop with a pillion ... but often this is more in consideration for the pillions comfort ... more than any other reason. (unless the bike is low in power)

Front brakes have more effect ... because as you brake ... all the bikes weight is transferred forwards ... with little weight, or braking ability, at the back wheel.

With the learner behind an experienced leader (literally to follow his/her lead) and as long as the leder remembers the learner is there ... and is careful with lines taken, and signals (indicators) given at the correct time (and copied by the learner)... usually there are no problems ...

[_Shrek_]

They reach with their hand(s) *around* you and brace their hand(s) against the tank. Then if you need to stop really quickly they are pushing against the tank and not you.

You continue to brace yourself as normal against the tank using your legs.

:scratch: how could she :whistle:

256468


:rofl: Not if Shrek is the rider they don"t.......
seriously though...as a pillion for 40 yrs I have found that hands lightly on the waist or hips of the rider & staying relaxed letting the rider ride is best. That way the pillion leans with the rider not fighting the bike!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:bleh: & after nearly 30 years of you going to :zzzz: I can now relax :msn-wink:

[Gremlin]

1. When riding with a pillion passenger, which is more important:
2. Which brake is more powerful - front or rear?
3. When riding in groups, where should learner riders be placed?

1. I don't know why you mention 250cc. You can only carry passengers on your full, most have larger bikes. You even state you're "already riding" blah blah. No, this question is from the beginning. The most important thing is remember acceleration and braking take longer. Then there are a host of other factors (inc the 2nd option).

2. It's not complex, and you even say the front is more powerful (not using the word powerful, but pretty much). The front brake has more stopping force than the rear. This may be incorrect for cruisers, where the rear brake bias is greater and the weight balance different. Locking wheels and surface area on road are all irrelevant to the basic question.

3. Learners (or the slowest riders) when riding in a group should be placed behind the leader. This allows the pack to stay together, the leader to know when the pace is too quick, and to keep an eye on the learners. If they are at the back you can't see if they're keeping up or dropping off. The last thing you want is to have them trying to keep up.

[superman]

3. Learners (or the slowest riders) when riding in a group should be placed behind the leader. This allows the pack to stay together, the leader to know when the pace is too quick, and to keep an eye on the learners. If they are at the back you can't see if they're keeping up or dropping off. The last thing you want is to have them trying to keep up.

Had this situation many a time when I was brand new, I just stayed at the back and let them go off. They'd end up waiting around for me to catch up later since I never felt the need to push myself when new... Plus I didn't want to be in the middle, far too much pressure makes you giddery and then you feel like you're holding up everyone. I don't see the pack staying together as essential... as long as everyone ends up at the same destination who cares.

[Gremlin]

Had this situation many a time when I was brand new, I just stayed at the back and let them go off. They'd end up waiting around for me to catch up later since I never felt the need to push myself when new... Plus I didn't want to be in the middle, far too much pressure makes you giddery and then you feel like you're holding up everyone. I don't see the pack staying together as essential... as long as everyone ends up at the same destination who cares.
It depends on the ride. Many organised rides are specifically for the learners, Maha has done a lot, I organised a few years ago. They were structured for the learners, if someone wanted to be a numpty, then stay away from the groups and go do your own thing. For mine, they were very structured, with a leader and tail for up to 4 learners, I think we had 4-6 groups, etc.

Now, if it's just a general ride, someone is marking turns, then yeah, go at your own pace, but I've heard of plenty of learners being left to sort themselves out and see ya later. Not exactly fair on them, and can place pressure on them to keep up.

[wingnutt]

have a look here at tip number 8 for carrying pillions

question 1

http://www.msgroup.org/videos.aspx


Question two

Going back to the days of drum brakes on bikes the stopping percentage of brakes was about 70% front 30% rear

With disc brakes all round these days, well hard to put a % but while the front brake still does the job more than the rear, the brakes are far closer the 70/30 100% braking can only be achieved with both brakes applied.

[MSTRS]

Going back to the days of drum brakes on bikes the stopping percentage of brakes was about 70% front 30% rear

With disc brakes all round these days, well hard to put a % but while the front brake still does the job more than the rear, the brakes are far closer the 70/30 100% braking can only be achieved with both brakes applied.

Yep.
Doesn't matter how effective brakes were/are, 100% is with both applied and the split front/rear will be much the same. ie front is 70%+ of the available stopping force.
In fact, with multi-pot calipers and twin discs on modern bikes, the ratio will be even more biased to the front.

[pritch]

Yep.
In fact, with multi-pot calipers and twin discs on modern bikes, the ratio will be even more biased to the front.

On a modern sprot bike the back wheel may well be intermittently or totally off the ground. Not much braking force there.

[MSTRS]

The prosecution rests, m'lud...

[Buyasta]

Had this situation many a time when I was brand new, I just stayed at the back and let them go off. They'd end up waiting around for me to catch up later since I never felt the need to push myself when new... Plus I didn't want to be in the middle, far too much pressure makes you giddery and then you feel like you're holding up everyone. I don't see the pack staying together as essential... as long as everyone ends up at the same destination who cares.

I had pretty much the same experience - I found riding at the back a lot more comfortable. While they weren't learner rides and most people were going off ahead at a faster pace, one of the more experienced riders who was acting as TEC rode at a slower pace, and being able to see how much speed he was carrying into a given corner and what lines he was taking was extremely useful, and I was much more relaxed knowing there was no one behind me that I was holding up.
Having said that, he'd occasionally drop behind me and observe my riding so he could give me tips when we stopped, which was also very useful, but I found being able to observe another rider the more useful of the two, particularly on unfamiliar roads, and I definitely think having other riders behind them puts more pressure on the learner rider.
Obviously it'll all come down to personal preference, but even now that I have more experience, I still feel a lot more comfortable without anyone behind me.