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gpercivl
19th December 2003, 12:03
Hi all Kiwi Biker's...the New Zealand road racing scene looks like it is spiralling down to inevitable oblivion within a few years...I'd like to ask for any/all suggestions from those interested on how to revive the sport in NZ.

We can then feed this info to the m/c clubs and MNZ in the hope some will be accepted. Years ago we use to see big numbers of spectators and entrants to events like the Superbikes, 6 hour, Marlboro series etc...

Half the fun of the 6 hour was riding down to Manfeild to watch and fanging with heaps of other bikes heading south.

How can we get people away from all their other activities and back to m/c racing in all it's forms??

Any/all suggestions considered...(please!!)

curious george
19th December 2003, 19:01
OK, well as a wanna-be racer someday, some of the things holding me back from my world title:
It's hardly encouraged. Parents generally would prefer to encourage soccer.
Something needs to be done at school level. (age wise)

It appears to be very expensive. I know you can get a bucket, but with a van or trailer, bike etc, unless you are filthy rich or bloody serious, it's a tall order.

It is expensive.

I'm a bit of a chicken. Fallin off looks painful.
The few people who do race need encouragement to keep racing. Build the lower ranks with n00bs on old hacks and the upper classes will benefit.

Where the hell is the closest track? Its about 100km away for me.
Costly to fix, and I don't want one next door - oh well, if you're offering...

If you are thinking of street racing like Pairoa, it's soo hard to get road closure now and police cooperation. And costs heaps. And we haven't even touched on indemnity insurance.

Perhaps some kind of racing class that limits expendature. Like the SV650 class, but I can't afford the bike :doh:

This is all deliberatly pessimistic, anybody who is any good or sufficently enthuastic will just get on and do it regardless (site - KK. Good on him)

It's not any easy one, but from experience in other sports, n00bs need instructors/mentors/people to look up to and ask stupid questions.
Dads I would guess would usually fill that role, but how many dads here have family who race?

Running races ain't easy, has the pool of volunteers dried up? It's stressful and not enough people come up and say 'thanks' at the end of it all.

If this is enough reasons not to, I'll think of some more TO race.

curious george
19th December 2003, 19:11
Ahh ok, the post was where have the crowds gone?!??

1: It's a long way to the track.

2: What's it cost to get in?
I can't remember, but it wasn't cheap. Gotta cover costs somehow, but you are competing against some other strong events.

3: WHERE'S THE SHOW?? unless I know somebody in the race, I can't tell what's going on. People want/need entertainment.
I want to be told something interesting about the rider/race.
Again, not easy, but somehow the TV commentry streamed to me at the trackside live would be really cool.

4: The food is shit and expensive. At most events anyhow.

5:Perhaps people don't have the time to spend at the track anymore?
Too busy on the bloody computer :whistle:

Damn, I need a new hobbly horse. I've outgrown this one.
*looks on tardme for one*

merv
19th December 2003, 19:26
The 70s and early 80s were all go because bikes were selling so the racing was driven by quite strong dealer and other sponsors interest. Sales of new bikes are now some tiny fraction of what they were then so who is going to pay for TV coverage etc.

So what happened? To me there seems to be a few issues. One is Jap import cars started flooding in from the late 80s because the Lange Govts reforms started kicking in. Now I'm not going to knock the fact that prices have dropped but bikes have lost their price advantage or was that more really people bought a bike out of necessity because cars were relatively speaking out of reach. The other thing is this whole focus on regulation and the outcome being that to get a bike licence isn't so easy these days.

So why would a young person buy a bike these days if they can have their supadupa turbo boy racer job which carries chicks and the cartons of piss and other things?

It appears that bikes sales are picking up a little and that I think is reflected in slightly better support for racing. This will only happen if more people buy more bikes and that fuels the sponsors and therefore the means for competitiors to surface and someone to pay for TV coverage - otherwise it is only the enthusiasts paying their own bills. So how do we encourage young people to get biking? I'll tell you even being a 34 year rider myself it has nit rubbed off onto my kids. They have too many other distractions these days from computers to whatever.

Population increase and a flood of Asians might help because some of them are bike focussed but maybe not. You guys in Auckland are bitching about them already and maybe they prefer boy racer cars anyway.

To think we used to have road racing in Napier, Gracefield, Porirua, Lyall Bay and they are all gone. Land development is one problem too and changing lifestyles. The areas have grown as commercial areas and shopping is now 7 days a week. No one cared when the shops weren't open if you had a road closure. Luckily Wanganui keeps going.

... but heck it used to be telecast on TV live all day ... interspersed with races at Ellerslie. I used to enjoy this when I had to visit the South Island rellies and couldn't get to Wanganui I could watch it on TV. We were made when the horses got their own channel, but bugger the coverage ceased through lack of sponsorship and no doubt the spiralling costs of TV advertising.

How do we reverse this? In all honesty I don't know if the old days can ever be relived because the squeeze is on for everyone's leisure buck and the land uses and other things have squeezed the racing out of many towns. We can only do our best to encourage the young people.

Kickaha
19th December 2003, 19:38
I think MNZ needs to promote the events a bit better, 1/2 the time there is very little advance notice to the public that these events are even on.

At last years NZ GP at Ruapuna there was only about 700 paying spectators in contrast the equivalent car meets draw crowds numbering in the several thousands and are generaly heard of weeks if not months in advance.

Perhaps hiring a outside promoter to promote and run the National series rather than it being up to each individual club to do their own thing.

Street races always get a big crowd, its up close and in your face and the people love it,it might be hard to organise,but Wanganui,Greymouth,Nelson and Paeroa can do it so why cant others.

Since the days of the 6 hour (went to the last two) and the Malboro series a lot has changed,there is a lot more entertainment available and a lot more options for weekend sport.

Fluffy Cat
19th December 2003, 19:42
Well i am trying to get racing in the f3 group on my nsr,its seems pretty straight forward to get your licence and set the bike up.Yep it is expensive but doable but none of the main bike makers make 250 2 strokes or 400s so the only market is second hand and there arnt that many about.People buy big bikes these days ie r1 etc would many people start racing on a 120 hp road bike and live to tell the tale.As for coverage what coverage?people just dont know about the events simple as that its not on the radio or tv,no big spreads in the paper either or the mags,except maybe one or two pages and most of that is the big guys.Nah theres no roots you need to be an enthusiast just to get near it.Mabey more track times will expose more people it certainly got me going.The 2 stroke is dead.Long live the 2 stoke. :bigthumb:

LB
19th December 2003, 20:14
Merv: don't forget there was racing at Paritutu in New Plymouth for a couple/few years back in the early 80's I think it was.

Marmoot
19th December 2003, 20:23
I'd say it's down to money and age, really.

When u're young, it's kinda expensive to run a race bike (may be it was not in 80s, but it is now). Especially since when you're young you don't make big money, so every dosh does make a difference.

When you get old enough and you make big enough money, normally you are already in the phase of slowing down and hence the racing is not too attractive anymore (it is already good enough if the other half does not stop you riding bikes).

What we need is generous amount of sponsorships to encourage young people to start it up. Plus, exciting tracks. Puke is just boring and Taupo is too far from here in the Big Smoke. Road track would be very exciting :D

Kickaha
19th December 2003, 21:23
I'd say it's down to money and age, really.

When u're young, it's kinda expensive to run a race bike (may be it was not in 80s, but it is now). Especially since when you're young you don't make big money, so every dosh does make a difference.


Plus exciting tracks. Puke is just boring and Taupo is too far from here in the Big Smoke. Road track would be very exciting :D


Expensive to run a bike? ever heard of buckets? yeah I know everyone laughs at them,but there's a whole bunch of previous NZ champs that started on them and some top current riders that still race them,and they race them at a track near you,also a very good way to get young talent on to bikes(Dominic Jones and Stevie Woods come to mind,both ex buckets)

Exciting tracks, well you're right there the only track in the North island worth racing on is Manfeild and that really needs a resuface as its pretty bumpy.

TV coverage is the obvious answer but the cost is high,this year I have seen more racing from the Australian Formula Extreme competition (courtesy of yamaha NZ) than any local bike racing

Marmoot
20th December 2003, 07:10
Not that I'm laughing at buckets, but the word "racing" implies budgeting and managing, there you get all the numbers at once. And for a youngster with little income (if any), you'd be thinking where would you get those dosh. Couple that with the transportation cost you still need for everyday riding and the number multiplies very quickly for minimum wage earners or pak'n'save workers (I asume these people are the primary afficionados for racing thrills?).

While, on the other hand, everyday riding virtually isolates you from all the numbers. If you run the calculations thoroughly, the maintenance cost etc etc might be close to running a race bike, but then again a lot of youngsters don't run a yearly budget for maintenance either. They sort of just hop on and ride off and worry about the cost only when something goes broke. Eh?

But then again, may be I'm wrong. This is just an input anyways.

Anyways, how much can you win from races? Would it cover the expenses if you're good enough?

Marmoot
20th December 2003, 07:13
Oh, one more thing. I find a LOT of families in our society tend to be anti-bikes. That might play a factor in the issue as well.
Teenagers who like bikes often are taken as rebels, anti-establishments, and crazy risk takers. Thus, there is no encouragement really from here.
(Heck, even the government is not really supporting us).

That might give an insight.
I long for a time when there will be another Aaron Slight.

k14
20th December 2003, 08:04
I agree that there needs to be alot more publicity about racing events.

I go to uni in christchurch and have been out to ruapuna a few times to watch the bears race and that was alright. But i had nfi what was going on and who was winning etc.

I have got 2 more years to go at uni, but after that when i have a job i would like to try and get into F3 with a VFR400 or something like that.

[newbie question] what is a bucket racer? [/newbie question]

Kickaha
20th December 2003, 18:09
[newbie question] what is a bucket racer? [/newbie question]


If you went to a bears meet at Ruapuna,then there would have been buckets racing at it,basically it's commuter bike racing,small capacity and fairly cheap $300-500 and you've got a bike.

Marmoot everyone laughs at buckets but it is a very competitive class and teaches good riding skills here's a few names for you from buckets


Dennis Charlett (NZ GP15 champ)
Andy Bowell ( NZ F3 champ at least twice,still races a bucket)
Cameron Horgan (NZ2 GP125)
I think the Shirriffs also raced them and there's also a couple of NZ sidecar champs who also raced them,its a cheap entry level class to get people into the sport but largely ingnored by MNZ and clubs.

Prize money scale for national events as pe MNZ rule book

22-8-10 Prize money for each Points Race shall be paid to Top 10 or
50% of finishers if field is under 20 starters.
Minimum scale shall be:
125 Racing:
$100, $80, $70, $60, $50, $40, $30, $25, $20, $15

Formula 3, 600 Sports Production & 250GP Classes:
$120, $100, $80, $70, $60, $50, $40, $35, $25, $20

Sidecar Classes:
$120, $100, $80, $70, $60, $50, $40, $30, $20, $15

Production Superbike:
$125, $110, $100, $90, $80, $70, $60, $50, $35, $20

When more than two races per class are run at a round,
prize money is to be paid in one of two ways.
a. At the above rates, per race.
b. At twice the above rates, paid on the
aggregate points total for all races.
The method is to be noted in the events supplementary
regulations.

gpercivl
22nd December 2003, 15:05
Thanks for all the responses so far, I'll note down all the points and send to MNZ and other places...Looks like cost, awareness and conflicting events/interests are common threads.

F3 can be fairly cheap to get into, you can build up a reasonable bike from 2nd hand parts for about $4000 to $6000 be competitive. F3's open to SV-650's which when race prepped are very fast but can be upwards of $20K to develop.

Buckets are an excellent way to start and raced very close to home at go kart tracks around the country, and lots of our top riders started in buckets.

I'll post back whatever response I get from MNZ etc...

Cheers, Greg

Marmoot
22nd December 2003, 16:22
No way I'd laugh on Buckets.....buckets are the only motorbikes available in where I came from :)
But, (honestly, sorry) the price tags seem to be a bit low, innit?
Why don't they make good price money for top 5 only instead? I mean, that would be a big boost for competition spirit to get into top 5, as well as attracting the 'dreamers' since they would think they can make racing a living.

I mean, if the world racing starts at "$millions", then why not start nationals at "$thousands" instead of $130? (of course, there will be more sponsors needed, bla bla bla, and what about government, etc etc?).

But, then again, I'm just saying. :mobile:
(yes....hello?....)

Motu
22nd December 2003, 16:52
Money an obstical?....doubt it - a lot of the racers of yesteryear were working as apprentices (like Croz for ex) the money they were on would be well below the minimum wage if todays standard applied.No,you've got to want to do it,these days play station is so much more fun...and you don't get hurt!

Marmoot
22nd December 2003, 17:04
Idealism don't make progress, especially what if they DON'T want it?
I suppose trying to attract people into something requires some kind of promises of incentives.

If there is no incentive, and couple that with unsupporting (well, mostly) environment (e.g., families, society, etc in general), then no one would be interested except for die hards...and die hards are only a handful.

But that's a marketing point of view, tho'.
:yes:

Motu
22nd December 2003, 17:31
Huh? what planet are you from - I need no incentive to ride a bike,and none to race either...shit man,don't you get it?

Marmoot
22nd December 2003, 18:56
Thank you for the wonderful suggestion.

Motu
22nd December 2003, 19:57
It's this very marketing approach that is taking youth away from motorcycles - thrills without skills,getting the biggest buzz without working for it.Who wants to work hard for years to afford a bike,then strip it down and poor more money into making a race bike out of it...then the hard,often painful grind to achieve the skills required to only be a midfield runner.A social life and girls don't excist,you work for the bike,every spare hour spent keeping it only running.

Nah...lets go and do a bungy jump eh?

Marmoot
22nd December 2003, 21:15
wow........ :shit:

Motoracer
22nd December 2003, 21:43
I think Marmoot had a good point the 1st time. What do kids (yes the playstation freaks as well) want? Do they really want to do all of what you said Motu. Heck no!! But if there was a decent enough prize money in there or... forget the prize money. If only we had more media coverage, we'd get the attention of more people, thus more crowds might turn up on the day to see what all the fuss is all about. More wnnabe racers would want to do what they see on TV. Current and existing racers would actually get some decent sponcers.

I reckon to get the ball rolling we need to expose motorcycle racing more to New Zealand. Heck, I wouldn't have known there were such things as F3, sports production, superbikes in NZ if I hadn't wanted to find out about it. Its not really that well known to be as popular as things like the 2.0 liter touring car races or Formula fords or of course the V8 supercars.

To my original point... yes, what is every kids (kid into motorsports) dream? They want to be the world champion. If they can see that they have a shot at being famous and well known they would get into that just for living that dream. And, yes sponcership would give them a more realistic oppertunity to get up there and the prize money wouldn't be so bad either. All they really have to do is get a major company/organisation to sponcer the race and bingo, they could chuck in a few thousands as prize money.

But right now, its almost an underground thing that no one really knows about so why the heck would any one give a toss about spending mega bucks to sponcer some silly little races.

Its just a thought and I know there are millions of problems behind it but if only we could slot some races into the Sunday afternoons of shell helux motorsports on channel one, I belive things could really happen...

merv
22nd December 2003, 22:23
.... and who remembers the January 1997 Wellington street races? Spot Len Perry and then there was Darren Heeman on his Softail, plus the usual racers Haldane, Hepburn, Rees, Stroud (on the Fireblade - that was back when he was USA Formual Extreme Champ) and was it McEwan on the Britten that day or someone else? This is the problem all these high profile circuits lost to the masses. Though I doubt Wellington was much fun for the riders with all its armco, haybales aside.

Motu
23rd December 2003, 06:53
We had a couple of street races in down town Auckland in...um...87,88 maybe? Going back further we had street races in New Lynn,imagine that Westies! Street races get spectators right in there - but does it make racers? a handfull maybe...but that's all we need eh? Off road riding is the only bike sport where I see young guys getting involved - kids on the shirt tails of Dads disposable income and lesure time perhaps.More extreme off road like trials and speedway?....one or two new comers,that speedway is a dying sport is a shame,we were top in the world in speedway for years - who here goes to motorcycle speedway events?

merv
23rd December 2003, 12:04
I watched speedway as a kid in the 60s. Then when I started riding we all got into trials in the 70s, but then we used the same bike for trials, Scott trials and scrambles and mini-TTs as well. Trials got quite big and all the Jap manufacturers leapt on the bandwagon and built trials bikes. Remember TL Hondas, TY Yamahas, RL Suzukis as well as the Bultacos, Montessas and Ossas. Motorcross was coming on too and then it was enduros so we had a crack at that in the 80s. Now it seems motorcross is on a high - having Coppins, Townley and the Kings helps the profile and as Motu says the dads can get their kids started on a small motorcrosser and there is no need for a road licence just plenty of money. The other dirt bike forms have dropped away a bit as far as numbers competing goes. Whether it goes in cycles I guess we'll see. Us old guys have moved on to the more leisurely adventure rides. I said earlier I can't see a clear answer to get guys road racing as you somehow have to get them interested in bikes first and now there are too many distractions for the young guys dollar.

jrandom
23rd December 2003, 12:26
I can't see a clear answer to get guys road racing as you somehow have to get them interested in bikes first and now there are too many distractions for the young guys dollar.

Probably true. Mebbe it's all that contraceptive-pill estrogen runoff in the groundwater. Seems that many young guys these days are spending all their time nancing around in baggy pants drinking pink alcoholic sugarwater and not paying attention to proper testosterone-driven pursuits, motorcycle roadracing being right up there on the list of Things That Can Kill You But Are Fun.

TBH roadracing is where it'd be at for me, even if it was buckets... you bucket racer types out there - is the FXR150 a legal competitor, or is the class restricted to 125ccs? I'd be tempted to hang onto it after upgrading, it's slow as a wet week but I'm pretty sure with a bit of twiddling it'd be very competitive against GNs, CGs and the like... and of course there's the factor that every time I diet and lose a couple of kilos the power-to-weight ratio changes noticeably ;)

Kickaha
23rd December 2003, 21:09
Buckets have a 140cc four stroke limit,although I think the Auckland club tried a 150cc class might be worth checking to see if they do although I'd be willing to bet I could still smoke you on a GN125 anyway lol,

I have been to speedway a few times over the last year,last time to check the track for a proposed bucket speedway event and I think the buckets could put on a better show than some speedways do.

They ran street races in Sydenham Chch,where Robert Holden fell off and broke something about 1984 I think and at New Brighton in the early ninetys for two years,Joey Dunlop raced at one of them, I recently raced at the 15th Greymouth street race and on the 28th Dec will race at the Port of Nelson street race,so streetracing is alive and well,and the C.a.m.s club intend to try running one at Southbridge next year.

750Y
5th January 2004, 08:09
my 02..
It's very much about society today(instant gratification with no risk), the choices(other options) available, the costs(comparitively) involved, the support at grass roots level(eh?), the general lack of conviction and working hard 'getting your hands dirty' attitude which is slowly disappearing as the new generation New Zealand emerges with different values from 30 years ago.
How many of You guys have lifted a shovel lately? As Motu mentioned, playstation (oops i mean ps2), which is better with no risks and you can be seen as 'the man' by your peers (that's pathetic). even $500-$800 is out of the question for young people who must stay at school till 18 and then the cost of maintenance, repairs, running, transportation etc. I believe that until road racing can get the families involved & get mum onside that support will continue to dwindle. Go to any track in NZ at a race meet & where/how are the kids/family catered for? even if it's just a tent/area with a few 2nd hand kid's 4 wheelers supplied by the local bike shops for $2 a go etc. Where's the ladies'(mum's) tea/coffee/biscuit tent (no offense ladies), where's the 'controlled pillion rides' at half time for people wishing to take a safe look at what it's all about. This stuff isn't expensive by any means but it can make the day one to be enjoyed for the whole family instead of Dad taking off leaving mum & kids behind so he can enjoy a selfish day at the family's expense. The off road scene is growing & that's because the whole family is ENCOURAGED to participate & catered for accordingly. MNZ is far too introspective in my opinion. But at least they are trying to piggy back on the car scene to raise the profile which is a huge step, but i don't think they are targetting the correct demographic. anyways, what would I know, I don't even own a bike. 8-(

James Deuce
5th January 2004, 12:32
750Y I think that's the first workable suggestion I've seen (no disrespect to anyone else). My godfather worked for Firestone in the 70s and always got me tickets to the F5000 GPs in the early/mid 70s, and they always had go-karts, minibikes, and a couple of carnival rides for the kids who got bored at Pukekohe (not me - nothing like the sound of an F5000 car on full chat).

I know where Motu is coming from Marmoot. It's difficult to hit the International scene unless you're already a marketable product, and have proven that your worth to your sponsors will equal or exceed their investment (a la Scott Dixon). MNZ and MANZ both continue to push classes that have no International relevance and fail to promote grass roots stuff like buckets or auto cross.

It is good to see motocross getting some coverage in the mainstream press but again if there wasn't an International presence (the King bros, Coppins) they wouldn't bother promoting the local scene. Which is where people get their information about entertainment largely and develop an interest in maybe participating.

I'd like to see see MNZ push the 2 Superstock classes, 1000cc and 600cc. The 1000cc class could feed into the Superbikes as well and both these classes have huge support Internationally. Specialist "homebuilt" classes like F3 can cost as much as an new 600cc Superstock bike. I think the demise of the 250cc proddie class has added to the decline in interest too, because learners (rightly or wrongly) could go and watch these things raced on Sunday and buy them on Monday. One trend I've noticed on this site is the "Today's birthday" header tends to display ages from the mid-late 30s to 50 or so. That would indicate an aging bike buying population (in the sample that uses these forums at least) who have either always ridden or have enough spare cash after buying a house and establishing a family to indulge in their favourite hobby again.

Identifiable local personalities (we used to have heaps of those - Croz, Freeth, Holden, Pavelitic etc) on identifiable bikes like those in the shop down the road would help tremendously with the profile of motorcycle sport even within the motorcycling fraternity (apologies to those who are a member of the sorority).

Maybe we just need someone with marketing and communication skills working for MNZ.

Jim2

Indiana_Jones
10th January 2004, 20:48
Well an idea is to hold races where learners and restricted riders without racing lisences to enter races on street stock
But it's just an idea

-Indy

Yamahamaman
10th January 2004, 21:09
Well an idea is to hold races where learners and restricted riders without racing lisences to enter races on street stock
But it's just an idea
-Indy

I think that OSH may have something to say about that but good idea none the less.

Indiana_Jones
11th January 2004, 10:25
I think that OSH may have something to say about that but good idea none the less.

lol true, just get da riders to sign a contract saying if they boo boo they can't touch the organizers :2thumbsup
lol like that would happen :p

-Indy

georgedubyabush
11th January 2004, 11:26
What about increased sponsorship and volunteers to make a few bike trackdays free, or next to free if possible. That might at least get a few bikes on the track that might never try it otherwise. Then who knows? If it really is as addictive as people say, it could grow from there if these people get into it.

BlueR1
11th January 2004, 11:49
Not a bad idea I reckon, alot of the time the hardest thing is getting people to give it a go first time around, if they could get out there without paying it might just be the difference between giving it a go and not bothering, once they were out there they might be hooked! and from there they may tell their friends etc and so the word might spread!

750Y
12th January 2004, 19:42
I forgot to mention, I think the organisers of TrackTime deserve some praise for their work. That is helping to promote track riding which can lead to roadracing and also getting riders out there. I've never been to one myself, but i hear they're well organised and highly enjoyable.

svs
14th January 2004, 09:07
I'm looking to get back into racing (f3) after a few years break since racing in the UK.

The UK has the same issues with club level racing that you see here. No-one wants to go and see a bunch of unknowns, the only really popular events are the BSB, WSB and the MCN 'in for a pound' day at Brands Hatch.

Some ideas are:

Make it really cheap (<$5) for spectators at club events. That way people may turn up just to have a look, or something to do at the end of a bike ride.

Promote the events better. Half the time I don't know what events are running and I'm going out of my way to look for them.

Run single make classes (like the Aprillia RS250, Minitwins Suzuki SV650 etc.) with subsidies from manufacturers/dealers for bikes/race bits. This means the bikes are evenly matched and the faster riders win - not only those with more money. These worked pretty well in the UK.

Try to get a round of the Australian Superbikes run in NZ (WSB would be nice, but I don't think that'll happen unless we get better facilities)

Better facilities. How about a purpose built circuit near Wellington? For both bikes and cars.

Basically it comes down to making racing more popular with the general public - my gf says that watching bike racing is boring unless I'm in it, and even then she's just more worried that I'll crash! You've also got a large number of kiwi bikers whose main passion is MX/trials (nothing wrong with that) but it does detract from road racing.

LB
14th January 2004, 17:05
Make it really cheap (<$5) for spectators at club events. That way people may turn up just to have a look, or something to do at the end of a bike ride.

Promote the events better. Half the time I don't know what events are running and I'm going out of my way to look for them.

Run single make classes (like the Aprillia RS250, Minitwins Suzuki SV650 etc.) with subsidies from manufacturers/dealers for bikes/race bits. This means the bikes are evenly matched and the faster riders win - not only those with more money. These worked pretty well in the UK.

Try to get a round of the Australian Superbikes run in NZ (WSB would be nice, but I don't think that'll happen unless we get better facilities)

Better facilities. How about a purpose built circuit near Wellington? For both bikes and cars.


The only club event I've ever paid to spectate at was an Auckland club meet last year. Club events at Manfeild and Taupo are always free.

Promotion: yeah, agree. You can always look on the websites for the tracks - I'll try and find them and post them here for you.

The Suzuki Series the season before last ran an "SV650" class that was really good, about ten guys entered, Suzuki gave a good deal, you could either rent them, or buy them at a subsidised price. Produced some good racing, adn a couple of the guys (Andrew Bretherton from Wanganui and Brendon Marshall from Chch) have gone on to do very competitive racing.

We had a couple of rounds of the WSB series here at Manfeild in either the late 80's or early 90's (can't remember exactly sorry). People like Doug Pohlen, Raymond Roche, Freddie Merkel (who now lives in Taupo) et al were here - great racing. I can't see it happening again, given the money needed to run a race like this.

I don't think that anyone would front with the cash for a new track. It's big bikkies. They're talking of extending and doing up Taupo, to V8 standard - apparently it's all go, with resource consent granted recently. Manfeild really needs a bit of money poured into it, but it's a great spectator track. Pukekohe really needs some money spent on it too (it's toilets are the pits, no pun intended). I've read that Puke is up for sale, but not sure if that's right or not.

LB
14th January 2004, 17:07
Overseas riders con'td: back in the 70's we used to get heaps of overseas riders to the Marlboro series, and Team Kawasaki from Oz (Neville Doyle's team of (the late, great) Hansford, Perry, Sayle et al) came over here sometimes for races like Onekawa (a street race in industrial suburb of Napier, for those too young to know!)

LB
14th January 2004, 19:06
I forgot to add Bruce Hansen from Hawera in the SV650 class, he's now racing an R1

svs
15th January 2004, 08:27
Overseas riders con'td: back in the 70's we used to get heaps of overseas riders to the Marlboro series, and Team Kawasaki from Oz (Neville Doyle's team of (the late, great) Hansford, Perry, Sayle et al) came over here sometimes for races like Onekawa (a street race in industrial suburb of Napier, for those too young to know!)

Exactly - that was all at least 10 years ago. We need to get that level of racing back!

Thanks for pointing out the other stuff. That's what you get for not being in the country that long.

Jackrat
17th January 2004, 07:22
I think the whole thing is a sign of the times.
We have a real lack of advertising coupled with poor coverage of the events that do happen.From a spectators point of veiw I often hear of some event happening after the fact.Then how many parents encourage their kids into these things today.My old man got me into Boxing and hunting,my mother got me into fishing.To day a lot of parents don't take an active part in their kids
pass times.WE have things like X box,Videos,an other such crap.
Then you get so called extreme sports that simply ain't.
I mean where is the danger in bungy jumping,those few who have been hurt doing it,it has been a result of operator error,not the jump itself.
Hell if you want kids to grow up with a bit of bottle you have to let them test themselfs,X box just don't do it.OH&S will I'm sure eventualy be the death of life as we knew it JIM.Then we have the thing where it's no longer good enough to just take part,You gott'a win boy.When a kid looks at the big time an works out for them selfs that the big money and Kudo's always go to the big money outfits then,Forget it mate,they would rather do something that they can win at(X BOX).Then we have the current crop of heros telling of how they spend all their spare time and money on practice an parts ect,Plus of course you have to start as five years old an be a natural.It's all a bit much for todays kids who are of course a product of their parents.
Bugger this is to depressing,even my own road riding club has to print the fact we ride on public roads to avoid being sued if someone prangs it.
Hell we only have the smarter type of rider do our events but there is always this Vulture called OH&S hovering in the back ground.
For me personaly the costs have just been to high.
Now that I have discovered post classic things may change.At lest in this class you can't get walked on by the big money an latest model to come out.

Motu
17th January 2004, 08:55
I should be putting this in your thread Jack - but this is even happening in Forgotten Era....when it first started guys were picking up CB350s,RD350s,waterbuckets and the like,stripping them,adding some good tyres then going out for some fun,it was exciting and I was very tempted myself.But things have changed....money has entered....race bikes from the era are being used (hey,no disrespect intented here,OK) like Freeths bike etc.So we get someone jumps off their winning R1 and in the next race they are on the winning bike of the 70s or 80s - the top end of the field is now full of the top riders on the best bikes.The factory worker who found a T500 in a shed and made all their own bits,rear sets,chambers etc is just an also ran at the back of the field - hey,he's having fun,but he'll never win.

And I agree with you about winning - who gives a shit about winning....oh,that's right,every bloody one! what's wrong with just going out there and having the time of your life,but no....you have to win,it's the only reason for racing - bollocks!

I can talk of course,I have been tempted to strip my Stornello down and race it,it's just lying around rotting.Raced it at Puke once,had the speedo and tacho slammed on the stops,goes well.But classic trials takes up enough time,another one would be hard to fit in.I have bikes for my kids,but don't push them to ride - when my daughters say they want a bike license I just ignore them till they forget about it.

Kickaha
17th January 2004, 20:56
And I agree with you about winning - who gives a shit about winning....oh,that's right,every bloody one! what's wrong with just going out there and having the time of your life,but no....you have to win,it's the only reason for racing - bollocks!



Not me and thats probably why I get a lot of second places,its not whether you win or lose its how you play the game, this weekend I will be filling in a on a sidecar with no hope of finishing at the top end of the feild but I don't really give a toss.

Coming soon is the Britten memorial meeting,$75000 prize pool,$15000 just for the winner of the Superbike class,TV coverage on sky and TV1,now if a private promoter can do this why can't MNZ maybe it won't be quite on the same scale but who knows.

Advertising for the Timaru round of the Nationals was non existent and I heard very little about the Ruapuna round as well,if people don't know its on they won't come and if we don't get people to the events we don't attract new people to the classes

marty
17th January 2004, 22:23
as a family we race BMX (12y boy, 8y girl and me)- and there are some intersting parallels. in the late 80's there were upwards of 1500 riders at a nationals. in hamilton last year, at a well promoted event, there were 650-odd. in cambridge, at a money paying international world round of BMX, there were about 580. my class, 35-40 years, has about 20 riders.

for us, and we are heavily into promoting the sport as an acheivable family sport, it is expensive. we have six bmx bikes, these are only track bikes, and we each have one or two others for riding to school/shops etc. in all i have 13 push bikes at home. these do not come cheap, but we choose to spend our money this way. if my son wanted to kart race, sail, surf, row (shit - price up a single sculler for a laugh!) then i would find a way to finance it. my parents did, sending me around the world for my sport when i was a teenager.

if the kid is that keen, then they'll find a job/sponsor/rich rellie to support them when they leave home. motor sport in any form, for the top drivers/riders, has traditionally attracted gregariuos personalities (freeth, bourne, mclaren, dixon, stroud etc) who people have wanted to throw money at.

you can't race your commuter. you need a race machine, no matter what class you're racing. for bucket racing though, a machine should cost less than a grand, gear is another grand, a shitty old hiace van is 2 grand (an L300 is cheaper..) it's gonna cost $100 a meet at least, for the cheapest form.

moto cross is dearer than that, but there seems to be plenty of $10 grand MX bikes out there - can't ride to work on one of those....

now entry fees for spectators. here's one that really pisses me off.

BMX - free
Street racing - free
motorcross (at cambridge anyway) - free
yacht racing on Hamilton or Ngaroto Lakes - free
Karts at hamilton airport raceway - $2
Super GP boats at karapiro - at least $20 (wtf is it with that?)
Taupo raceway - $10 at least.
Drags - $10-15
Stockcars - $whatever they want - $40 a car (doesn't stop them selling out though)


it's just crazy - the spectators make the atmosphere, and up the ante for exciting racing. There's gotta be a reason Paeroa is always packed, aside from the close to the action thing.

i was in the UK this time last year, and went to Oulton Park. they had a bike day there (in december!) and there would have been 10 bikes! people had come from London to ride - that's 300 miles! admittedly they're all adults, but they're spending the money. crikey - taupo is not that far away from anywhere!

So there is my 02c worth. make your chioces, spend the bucks, enjoy what you do with yourself and your family.

Jackrat
17th January 2004, 23:15
Oh well it looks like I won't be racing post classic then,I would be pretty pissed off to enter on say a 750/4 Honda and find myself lined up against a
TZ 750 Kawasaki,Heck I wouldn't be even interested in wining,Just having a good dice with like minded types,But fair go whats the point of being there if you never stood a chance at all.If they really want people to race,an even playing field would help.An heres me thinking that post classic was here to give guys like me an even chance.Hell I can see it now,The Rat pulls up on a home built CB500/4 and some dude lines up along side on Barrys old RGB.
No thanks even the fishings better odds than that.

Kickaha
18th January 2004, 05:48
I have seen the North Island post classics and very nice and shiny they are to,TZs,McIntosh GSX1100 etc.

Down in the South we are a bit behind stuff like that with the class winner this year a pretty stock CBX550(apart from wheels and brakes) and bikes like RD350LC,X7, RD400s,GS1000,XJ650 and hopefully soon my RD400 or XJ550, and most of these pretty much stockers.

Marty, Bucket racing doesn't cost anything close to thse figures about 1/2 that would be closer.

SPman
18th January 2004, 13:05
Yeah, theres some serious money spent on the top rung, post classics. But there is, at the top rung of any sport class. That still shouldnt stop people from going for it at a lower level,

gav
23rd January 2004, 13:30
Went to the NZGP at Ruapuna the past weekend and was impressed by the young talent coming through esp in the 125's. Racing is always going to cost you but I raced a ZXR400 in F3 and reckoned it cost about $100 a race weekend. This was for entry, race fuel, hiring a trailer, bit of lunch etc. Ran same tyres all season, bike cost me just over $3000, and sold it for similiar money at end of year. You can buy a reasonable 125 for what $3-5000?
I use to live in Nelson and remember one race weekend loading up a van & trailer with 4 bikes on a Friday night after work and leaving Nelson about 10.00pm getting to Chch about 3 in the morning and sleeping in some guys lounge, getting up at 6.00 and carrying on to Levels (Timaru) to be there for sign in at 8.30. Alot of young guys now seem to want a handout or some sort of sponsership deal when they start out? You will always get some flash harry with the latest bike in whatever class. Don't be discouraged, you usually end up dicing with some one else on all sorts of bikes, just enjoy the racing and try and win your own little personal battles :Punk:
Hell, even in buckets some smart bastard turns up with a home made mono shocked alloy box framed, tuned to the bollocks, two stroke running slicks! Hang on, thats my bike! :2thumbsup

Kickaha
23rd January 2004, 20:07
Hell, even in buckets some smart bastard turns up with a home made mono shocked alloy box framed, tuned to the bollocks, two stroke running slicks! Hang on, thats my bike! :2thumbsup

Bring it on we are just working on the XL100 turbo to kick some two stroke butt,if you've still got it we are going to work on having a meeting at Blenheim in March.

The young guys like Dominic and Stevie in the 125's certainly haven't had anything handed to them,what they do have and I would have just about killed for is the total support of their parents in trying to be the best in their class.

Indiana_Jones
23rd January 2004, 21:34
lol gotta race a FXR150 :msn-wink:

-Indy

LB
24th January 2004, 04:46
I use to live in Nelson and remember one race weekend loading up a van & trailer with 4 bikes on a Friday night after work and leaving Nelson about 10.00pm getting to Chch about 3 in the morning and sleeping in some guys lounge, getting up at 6.00 and carrying on to Levels (Timaru) to be there for sign in at 8.30.

This all sounds very familiar....often used to do Wgtn to Pukekohe and back in a weekend, with no days off work. One time trying to get to Bay Park we had the bikes on a trailer, the car blew a headgasket on the Foxton Straits about 7pm - at that stage there was a garage near the sheepskin shop (can't remember the name of the place). The guy there opened up his garage and got it fixed. Then it blew again somewhere around Taihape in the middle of the night/morning, so we ended up flagging the race meeting.

I could cope with hardly any sleep back when I was young - boy, I don't like some of the aspects of this getting old lark :eek:

Kickaha
26th January 2004, 21:04
This all sounds very familiar....often used to do Wgtn to Pukekohe and back in a weekend, with no days off work. One time trying to get to Bay Park we had the bikes on a trailer, the car blew a headgasket on the Foxton Straits about 7pm - at that stage there was a garage near the sheepskin shop (can't remember the name of the place). The guy there opened up his garage and got it fixed. Then it blew again somewhere around Taihape in the middle of the night/morning, so we ended up flagging the race meeting.

I could cope with hardly any sleep back when I was young - boy, I don't like some of the aspects of this getting old lark :eek:

Just been to Teretonga left at 1.30am Sat morning and back on Sunday night and that was just to watch,but good weather, great racing and a excellent time,well worth it.

wkid_one
26th January 2004, 21:27
OKay I have resisted this long to post my thoughts (actually they could probably help any ailing sports....

1. Between each race their should be a national 'Naked Hot Chicks on Scooters' competition
2. At the beginning and end of the day - there should be a wet t-shirt competition
3. Get the M'Bike Dealers to bring bikes along for us to test on the track......
4. Bring in FMX etc - to spice things up between races etc
5. Some more gratuitous naked girls couldn't go amiss here either
6. Have a mini-moto round with dwarfs racing (sorry couldn't resist)
7. Change the races up a bit....like maybe putting in the odd pothole, cow pat, random goat or something
8. Allow water balloons in to the race course!
9. Do a Horse versus Bike race
10. A Le Mans start possibly?
11. About time for some more naked or partially dressed girls
12. Allow us to do the work on the bikes in the pits
13. Put some ramps on the track
14. Actually advertise it OUTSIDE of the motorbiking fraternity (novel I know)
15. Have a joint weekend with the World Womens Beach Volleyball Competition
16. Make the first world Steeplechase Motorbike Track Race
17. Make them wear silks like jockeys
18. Actually invest some money in to it?
19. Have a unicycle race

I couldn't think of a twentieth one - sorry

LB
27th January 2004, 04:53
Just been to Teretonga left at 1.30am Sat morning and back on Sunday night and that was just to watch,but good weather, great racing and a excellent time,well worth it.
You lucky bugger - I would have given my eye teeth to be there. I have to wait now till March for the final two rounds. (though of course there's SOT/Britten/Paeroa to look fwd to before then, so I'll live)

gpercivl
29th January 2004, 15:53
Thanks for keeping this posting alive everyone...lots of good ideas (and novel ones from wkid). There's a thread running on the http://www.motorcyclesport.co.nz website too (Time for Change) so will be feeding these ideas into 'the committee' and MNZ as appropriate.

Cheers, Greg.

merv
30th January 2004, 07:28
OKay I have resisted this long to post my thoughts (actually they could probably help any ailing sports....

1. Between each race their should be a national 'Naked Hot Chicks on Scooters' competition
2. At the beginning and end of the day - there should be a wet t-shirt competition
3. Get the M'Bike Dealers to bring bikes along for us to test on the track......
4. Bring in FMX etc - to spice things up between races etc
5. Some more gratuitous naked girls couldn't go amiss here either
6. Have a mini-moto round with dwarfs racing (sorry couldn't resist)
7. Change the races up a bit....like maybe putting in the odd pothole, cow pat, random goat or something
8. Allow water balloons in to the race course!
9. Do a Horse versus Bike race
10. A Le Mans start possibly?
11. About time for some more naked or partially dressed girls
12. Allow us to do the work on the bikes in the pits
13. Put some ramps on the track
14. Actually advertise it OUTSIDE of the motorbiking fraternity (novel I know)
15. Have a joint weekend with the World Womens Beach Volleyball Competition
16. Make the first world Steeplechase Motorbike Track Race
17. Make them wear silks like jockeys
18. Actually invest some money in to it?
19. Have a unicycle race

I couldn't think of a twentieth one - sorry

You're onto it. Times have changed and people today want to be entertained more - otherwise the teenagers as an example say "boring". Without stunts and stuff like that they will go elsewhere even if its just to the movies which are all much more extreme than before because technology allows them to be.

Hitcher
30th January 2004, 07:43
Sounds like a fun day out!

svs
30th January 2004, 09:04
.
.
16. Make the first world Steeplechase Motorbike Track Race
17. Make them wear silks like jockeys
18. Actually invest some money in to it?
19. Have a unicycle race

I couldn't think of a twentieth one - sorry


20. Open track for wheelies, burnouts, other general shenanigans at end of day.

Actually this was stolen from an AMA Superbike event I went to at Brainerd a few years back - included pit bike race, allcomers doing 500 yard wheelies and cruisers exploding rear tyres, all after a Gary Rothwell show. The whole weekend had a large party atmosphere (inc. families) and those yanks were appreciative of even the most feeble wheelie attempts - as long as you had a go :)

svs
30th January 2004, 09:15
20. Open track for wheelies, burnouts, other general shenanigans at end of day.

Actually this was stolen from an AMA Superbike event I went to at Brainerd a few years back - included pit bike race, allcomers doing 500 yard wheelies and cruisers exploding rear tyres, all after a Gary Rothwell show. The whole weekend had a large party atmosphere (inc. families) and those yanks were appreciative of even the most feeble wheelie attempts - as long as you had a go :)

And this year they have......

Lawnmower Racing! (http://www.letsmow.com/) how cool is that :banana:

Kickaha
30th January 2004, 17:36
19. Have a unicycle race



Excellent idea,I don't know if anyone here has seen them but Pete Jones from Invercargill has made some motorised unicycles,they only have old sationery engines in them so probably only do about 8-10kmh but I am sure a RS125 would fit with a bit of work!

gpercivl
31st January 2004, 09:29
but I am sure a RS125 would fit with a bit of work!

Until you have to stop from 200km/h :D

Kickaha
31st January 2004, 21:08
Until you have to stop from 200km/h :D

well they don't have brakes and when you roll off the throttle they try to put you over the front but they're only minor problems.

geoffm
1st February 2004, 19:57
One thing about road racing is that many of the regular bike racers are getting into dirt bikes instead. I know several who have bought motorcrossers and trail bikes recently. They were all serious championship road racers. The reasons are varied - one said dirt bikes are more fun. You can use them every weekend somewhere close to Auckland (not 4 times per year at Puke). They are cheaper to buy and run, and don't date as fast.
I raced for yers, but had to give up when I could no longer afford it. It was cheaper for us to drive to Baypark (now gone) or Manfield than to race at Puklekohe just down the road. I tried buckets and didn't like it - maybe it was just Mt Wellington.
Geoff

Racey Rider
7th January 2005, 19:45
So has anything changed in the last year?

I bring this thread up again as I want to tell SHAUN HARRIS (on the motorcyclesport (http://www.motorcyclesport.co.nz) site),my thoughts on Prize Money, as he is complaning about the lack if it at the coming Paeroa street races. Thought I'ld get some ideas from you lot first before I (a racing nobody) set SHAUN HARRIS straight on priorities.

The way I see it, Why should the top racers get prize money when our sport is struggling? Basicly it's Me funding them! If they didn't get prize money ether my costs would be lower, or that money could go into promoting our sport. The sport is costly enough without me having too support the top riders, (who have the nice bikes and proably good jobs/incomes anyway).

Would be interested in your thoughts, for or against.
And if you've got time, re read all this thread, (yes I have), and submit your thoughts on the wider picture.

See ya out there.
Racey :ride:

FROSTY
7th January 2005, 20:25
Thanks for bringing it up again RR
I see so many issues in road racing in new zealand
You hit the nail on the head re prize money at national level.
The guys getting the money are the guys who least need it
also if you remove the purses and have us racing for tropheys then the cost of a national points meet would drop -therefore more people likely to enter.
an example being me--to enter the nats at pukie I need $150 per class -which means $300 -on top of that i carry all my own expenses.
2)all entry level classes get abused out of existence by either the officials or the competetors.
250 production was a great class to start racing in and it meant minimal expense as you couldnt even change gearing from standard.
the introduction of the SV650 into f3 means that you need a shit load of coin to be competative at national level
What is needed is a race class that is realatively cheap to get into and where its impossible to have the richest dude be the winner.
The only way would be some sort of production based class
Control tyres so noone has an advantage by being able to buy more expensive tyres.
Production bikes of 400cc or smaller so theyre not hard on tyres but you can still learn how to control the power
no modifications from stock allowed
Perhaps even use the american rule where if someone seems to have a hot motor you can buy it for $500
A 3 year run for the class so you know if you buy a bike youve got 3 seasons racing.

Yep I feel that the national level racing needs to be promoted so we get spectators.

Kickaha
7th January 2005, 20:35
I read his comments and had a bit of a laugh,I guess what he is saying is if they want the riders to front up they need to give them a decent incentive to be there

Personally for me the fact there's a race on is enough and prize money would make no difference even if I was capable of winning it,it's just a bonus if you get any,I'm unsure how he organisers of street events set the prize money scale? at Greymouth and Nelson there is no prize money and entry fee is $55-$60

If Shaun is concerned about the lack of prize money then the answer is simple,he doesn't have to compete at the event.

I feel MNZ hasn't learnt from past years,advertising for the Ruapuna round of the Nationals was piss poor with the posters arriving two weeks before the event and entry forms out late as usual,one bonus was some TV coverage though.

Motu
7th January 2005, 20:38
How many riders entered Desert Storm last year? - 1200 I think.What did they pay the winners? - yeah,right.

Why did 1200 riders from all over the country enter Desert Storm?? - because they had FUN!!! That's the missing ingreadiant in road racing,the fun factor - put that back in and they will be lining up.

speedpro
7th January 2005, 20:52
OKay I have resisted this long to post my thoughts (actually they could probably help any ailing sports....

1. Between each race their should be a national 'Naked Hot Chicks on Scooters' competition
2. At the beginning and end of the day - there should be a wet t-shirt competition
3. Get the M'Bike Dealers to bring bikes along for us to test on the track......
4. Bring in FMX etc - to spice things up between races etc
5. Some more gratuitous naked girls couldn't go amiss here either
6. Have a mini-moto round with dwarfs racing (sorry couldn't resist)
7. Change the races up a bit....like maybe putting in the odd pothole, cow pat, random goat or something
8. Allow water balloons in to the race course!
9. Do a Horse versus Bike race
10. A Le Mans start possibly?
11. About time for some more naked or partially dressed girls
12. Allow us to do the work on the bikes in the pits
13. Put some ramps on the track
14. Actually advertise it OUTSIDE of the motorbiking fraternity (novel I know)
15. Have a joint weekend with the World Womens Beach Volleyball Competition
16. Make the first world Steeplechase Motorbike Track Race
17. Make them wear silks like jockeys
18. Actually invest some money in to it?
19. Have a unicycle race

I couldn't think of a twentieth one - sorry

20. Two-up (obviously), possibly with naked or scantily clad girls. Guaranteed big fields if the girls were supplied.

FROSTY
7th January 2005, 21:00
How many riders entered Desert Storm last year? - 1200 I think.What did they pay the winners? - yeah,right.

Why did 1200 riders from all over the country enter Desert Storm?? - because they had FUN!!! That's the missing ingreadiant in road racing,the fun factor - put that back in and they will be lining up.
couldnt agree more mate --the older more dyed in the wool clubs have a lot to learn from pacific MCC
2 rides on the track for road riders. emphasis was on fun racing not on the results.-

Motu
7th January 2005, 21:55
I don't know about road racing - but in the off road community there is a backlash against MNZ,they all want to get away from anything to do with MNZ - and that's why things like Desert Storm are so successful...pay and ride.Bring back the day licence.

DEATH_INC.
7th January 2005, 21:58
My opinion as a non-racer.
No one prob as I see it is lack of good tracks/facilities,when the racing does get on telly it looks like a bunch of hicks racing around a paddock.
no2 is that the racing is pretty boring,dunno why but it never gets me going like the wsb ect does(maybe it's those shite tracks....)
No3 I think mnz is their own worst enemy,they make it seem too hard for someone that's not really commited.
then you hear all the stories about guys being told no wheelies ect,what kind of bs is that?(don't they know this is what the spectators want?)
cost is always gonna be a prob for a lot of guys,but you can't do much about that.
Better facilities,easier access for guys wanting to race(how about a streetbike class for bikes with wof and rego at each meeting,with just a casual licence)and cheaper costs.I can go to the drags and race my bike I ride down there for $35.
Just some thoughts.

TwoSeven
7th January 2005, 22:02
Well here is my 2 cents.

1st of all there is no regular access to the tracks - ride days (here in chch) are few and far between.

There is no mini-moto at the tracks (its done but not as far as I know by the bike clubs).

There is no cheap as 125 or 250 class, so all the learners miss out - none of them can afford to use their own bikes and its very hard to find scrap machinary to use.

As far as I have seen the clubs just let people do their own thing, so if your a newbie and dont know anyone you get left alone. There is no training or anything (I think I saw some clubbers once with orange bibs, but nothing for the newbs.).

I havnt seen any organised race schools that have their own bikes and the special rigs to stop people falling off like they have in the uk, aus and the states.

Basically what I am getting at is there is nothing aimed at newbies thats cheap and nasty, and with maybe the same old 5 riders at the top year in and year out there is no incentive for anyone else to put some effort in to try to get a ride.

ajturbo
7th January 2005, 23:22
Excellent idea,I don't know if anyone here has seen them but Pete Jones from Invercargill has made some motorised unicycles,they only have old sationery engines in them so probably only do about 8-10kmh but I am sure a RS125 would fit with a bit of work!


my mate bill in nelson has one... fuckn hard to ride!! but he entered it in one of the 1/4 mile races we used to organise... THAT was funny!


andy

curious george
8th January 2005, 09:00
Good to see an old thread again.
Well, I've changed a bit, I'm now 'a racer' of sorts. (means I've done about 3 races...heehee)
It was KK flufy cat who really got me started, comments like, "what are ya? a soft cock?"
And more polite, "just come out and watch! It's fun, and you can have a go if you like"
In a round about sort of way, KK is responsible for about 3 extra riders in F3 this season, and quite a few more track timers.
Perhaps MCNZ needs more KKs! :killingme :killingme :killingme
I've been kucky to have a few good mates to talk things over with mechanically and to share lifts with, but otherwise it would be almost impossible to do. (Thanks guys! :love2: ) :o

In regard to Shaun Harris, I can see his gripe too. He's spent a hell of a lt more on his bike as an 'investment' and has more to loose if he doesn't win.
You need big prize money to attract the top guys and to keep them in the sport, but you can't neglect the n00bs in F3 either, as without them, there wont be a F1 class in 5-10 years. It's the new riders and those in the lower classes who need encouragement, and the top level who need the money.
Sorry, but thats the way it works.

svs
8th January 2005, 11:32
There is no cheap as 125 or 250 class, so all the learners miss out - none of them can afford to use their own bikes and its very hard to find scrap machinary to use.


Vic club run a class for stock 150 2 stroke/250cc 4 stroke for that very reason.

It's good to see this back up again - Here's my take after racing for 1 season since earlier comments.

1) Prize money - yep, good to have but needs to come from sponsorship of events, not hiking up the entry fees. As it was at wanganui I got 2 half races for $100 entry fee. That was a bit annoying.

2) Classes. Need to be careful about allowing cross entering. OK - it keeps numbers up, but there are so many different bikes out there that you don't get much close racing. The last class I raced in the UK was 250SS and everyone was on an RGV or Aprilia. That meant that the fast riders won - not the best machinery. Motards appear to be taking over. At Wanganui, they were cross entered in F3 and BEARS as well as there own SuperMotard class. Need to keep superbike and 600 production, but the classes have to reflect the road bikes of the day. Maybe 250 and 125 GP too. Bike racing is still much cheaper than car racing, but it will never be a cheap hobby.

3) Promotion. The nationals need to be promoted better. There is hardly any one there apart from the racers. Wanganui gets a good crowd, but you've got to keep the racing going to stop the spectators getting bored. How about trying to get TV1 to show clips from national/club level events after WSK/MotoGP on the TV? (ok, so the got to show wsbk first).

I think there is 2 distinct areas. Club level racing to get as many people involved as possible, but also the national level where you've got to be professional and put on a bit of a show. Keep the nationals upto scratch and the club events can feed into that.

The real reason that I race is because it is FUN. I know I'm never going to be the fastest guy out there, but at the same time I don't want to just be making the numbers up. Haveing decent events where you know you have a chance is what the clubs and MNZ should be providing, the rest is up to me.

I'm looking forward to the Britten memorial event - The classes they have there are pretty decent - Superbike, 600 and Pro Twins. Good for me - not so good for other f3 bikes though.

That's enough rambling for now. I could go on for ages. Got to give people like shaun harris there dues though. At least they are getting out and doing something.

Racey Rider
8th January 2005, 11:49
In regard to Shaun Harris, I can see his gripe too. He's spent a hell of a lt more on his bike as an 'investment' and has more to loose if he doesn't win.
You need big prize money to attract the top guys and to keep them in the sport, but you can't neglect the n00bs in F3 either, as without them, there wont be a F1 class in 5-10 years. It's the new riders and those in the lower classes who need encouragement, and the top level who need the money.
Sorry, but thats the way it works.

But it shouldn't be about "a return on a investment".
If they want to spend huge money on hotups and crash mantainance, They should get their own sponsorship to pay their way. Can't find the Sponsorship? Then pay for it yourself or don't do it. But don't go taking money off the newbe's or from the promotion buget just so you can afford to keep being the Top Dog.
NZ is to small to be making a profit from bike racing. If you were to race in Australia for profit, I'm sure your sponsor will fly you home to NZ every other week. :msn-wink:
If we were to sneak into the Australain National series (why would they want us?), and get one round in NZ (previous idea), that might create a bigger TV spectacle and get the ball rolling for more coverage and sponsorship. Then bigger prize money. More riders.
Racing Heaven! ?

TwoSeven
8th January 2005, 11:54
A thought that I had at cemetry when seeing the same old 5 guys going round is why are they not full time racing in Aus. Thats where they should be not here taking up spaces. If someone like MNZ was to levy a fee to help pay sponsership for their costs i'd pay it.

Its a real kicker when I go down to Ruapuna to watch the racing and I see a youngun with talent or a sponsered racer that needs development and opertunities riding round, because you know that they should be in aus mixing it up.

In the uk the bike teams keep an eye on the newbies and the home racers and its not uncommon for someone to be given an op to ride a bike out of the blue - i've never heard of it happening here - it may well do I guess.

What do the mx guys do, they must have gotten something right as where I used to live their used to be heaps of families and kids turn up for a day of kahuting about.

bloodnut
8th January 2005, 13:27
But it shouldn't be about "a return on a investment".
If they want to spend huge money on hotups and crash mantainance, They should get their own sponsorship to pay their way. Can't find the Sponsorship? Then pay for it yourself or don't do it. But don't go taking money off the newbe's or from the promotion buget just so you can afford to keep being the Top Dog.
NZ is to small to be making a profit from bike racing. If you were to race in Australia for profit, I'm sure your sponsor will fly you home to NZ every other week. :msn-wink:
If we were to sneak into the Australain National series (why would they want us?), and get one round in NZ (previous idea), that might create a bigger TV spectacle and get the ball rolling for more coverage and sponsorship. Then bigger prize money. More riders.
Racing Heaven! ?

Well here's my views, from a person who raced at the top of nz racing for 6 or 7 seasons.

We need production racing, allowing a slip-on muffler only. (This is to give the sound needed to make a spectacule). You can race 600cc or 1000cc nothing else, two classes - everything else becomes open support classes.

At the moment to compete in one of the current classes and get a top ten you need min;

Latest Bike - $15000-20000
6 sets of tyres @ $500+ a set = $3000+
Kitted forks and shock $1500-3000
Race fairings - $1200-1500
Brake lines and pads - $500
Engine work - $2000-10000
Spares ?
Power commander - $500+
Race stands - $300
Paint job - $300-1000

This is just the basics which come to $25000- 40000+
And then when you try to sell it at the end of the season you cant sell it for peanuts.

When I competed in the superbike class it cost me 30,000- 40,000 a season and I and friends did all of the work on the bike so this dosent include labour.

So you can see that $125 price money (if you are lucky enough to win) is an insult really. You just burned $500 worth of tyres to start with.

If you dont offer some incentive the top riders will do as you say and stay away, then what will road racing be like? :eek:

If we could get more sponsors we would. I personally received $30,000+ thousand dollars a season but still managed to spend every cent I got each year as well. :headbang:

On top of that is the time committement required to compete at the front. Basically your whole year must be focussed around the series, all of your holidays will be used up going to meetings. You also have to con a helper or two to do the same as well! :no:

If you forced everybody to race completely stock bikes with a muffler and re-jet and got a cheap control tyre deal going the costs above would almost half.

The other reason I stopped was practice. You go to a national points three day meeting to get three 10 min practices. What the F**K? How can u set-up a bike in ten mins? World suerbike teams struggle with 4 one hour sessions . Then you get to a street circuit and you are lucky if you get three flying laps for each practice, and this is among a million different bikes that are all over the place, chookies, classics, big bikes little bikes you name it.

The top two classes need to be put on a pedistal, with decent practices and podiums presentations, trophies etc or no one can be bothered - lets face it the money isnt the reason you are there.

Sure support classes are a must, but in there place.

Anyway my two cents
Jared Gillard


By the way I dont know of anyone in Road racing to make a profit - you must have been kidding?

Kickaha
8th January 2005, 14:26
1st of all there is no regular access to the tracks - ride days (here in chch) are few and far between.

There is no mini-moto at the tracks (its done but not as far as I know by the bike clubs).



You can hire the track every Tuesday and Friday for $50 for 1/2 day get a group of mates together and get out there

Minimoto would be a waste of time at Ruapuna even on the short track

Day licences are now available and there are now classes to race the 250/4 to get the younger guys into it


The top two classes need to be put on a pedistal

And who decides what the top classes are,just because they spend more money and have bigger bikes that makes it the top class?

lots of guys in the so called lesser classes put just as much time and effort into their racing and contrary to what some people believe not everyone wants a 600cc or 1000cc to race.

FROSTY
8th January 2005, 14:29
Jared
I couldn't agree with you more re production class except re bike size.
Yep control tyre -and sponsored by the manufacturer --maybee like a brand thats a bit out of favour at the moment.
I think you need a size bike that is easy on tyres and brakes but offers good close racing--remember the old 250 proddie days when we were all on TZR250's ?-good close racing and big entry feilds.
Given how fast a moden 4 stroke 250 is I think they would be as fast as we were on the tzr's
Thinking about it maybee MNZ needs to have control of the nationals taken off them and it be run and promoted by a company looking to make money.
Bad as that sounds Itll mean Heavy promotion so big crowds. Itll mean bigger purses for the winners from gate takings and posters and stuff like that.
At grass roots level I repeat that Pacific Mcc series at Taupo could teach the "big boys" a lesson or two.
Day licences for those wanting to have a go in clubmans for the first time.
2 20 minute track sessions during the day for non racers
Classes set up to cater for all the bikes that attend
I remember years ago a meeting was run on a grade basis -a grade b grade c grade and d grade.
4 classes meant 16 races a day so everybody got 4 races.
The class you were in was determined by lap times not bike size or setup.
The top 3 riders in B<C,D grade were offered the chance to move up a grade if they were significantly faster than the other guys.
Ya hit the nail on the head re practice and track time in general Its a bloody joke.

Kickaha
8th January 2005, 14:48
The other reason I stopped was practice. You go to a national points three day meeting to get three 10 min practices.

That's why every National event I have attended has an unofficial practice the day before the offcial qualifying/practice

Now thats not possible at a street race unless you want to increase costs even more,but everyone is in the same boat

MNZ in their wisdom took away the day licences which caused a bit of grief also if you fronted up without your licence it was "no licence,no ride" even if the official knew you had a current one,thankfully they are now available again


Thinking about it maybe MNZ needs to have control of the nationals taken off them and it be run and promoted by a company looking to make money.

Great idea about an outside promoter,it's been suggested before and I think it's how the car guys do it?

Track time is limited by the conditions of hire,at Ruapuna you have to be off the track at 5pm,and I'm guessing most other tracks have similar conditons? and the only way to increase tracktime would be to amalgamate classes or have less of them.

Jared I take it the $25000+ for a season include club days as well? and I'm guessing a large part of that would be in tyres alone?

bloodnut
8th January 2005, 14:52
And who decides what the top classes are,just because they spend more money and have bigger bikes that makes it the top class?

lots of guys in the so called lesser classes put just as much time and effort into their racing and contrary to what some people believe not everyone wants a 600cc or 1000cc to race.

If you want a class that will draw the crowds and encourage riders off there couch then you must have a top class which uses powerful bikes (as history shows, how many people watch the motogp class or the old 500 class versus the 250's and 125's?) so 1000cc fits perfectly.

You need a feeder class to the top class, this needs to be on bikes that are similar or it doesnt provide the experience needed (ie going from a 250 four stroke or even a 250gp bike to a 1000cc proddy bike is a massive step) therefore as 600's are a smaller version of 1000cc bikes this fits.

Also young riders must aspire to greater things and that can only be Australia or World superbikes/supersport which are based on these bikes, so the progression isnt too large.

I tried to implement these ideas at MNZ conferences - three or four times, during the ninties and got shot down mostly by clubs who didnt have a clue about road racing or had some hidden agendas. Remember every club has a vote on these issues, so even though you are voting on a road race regulation shit-box dirt bike club's from the middle of nowhere, decide the outcome (as theres far more of them) - completely nuts.

There should also be a non- championship race that is completely open. This will encourage bikes like the Britten, BSL, Jimmy Steadmans Two-stroke 750cc beast amongst other creative bikes lying in sheds around the country. This would be an excellent class for those slightly off the pace race bikes to come back out of storage! This would also prove popular for the spectators and promoters.

Cheers
Jared :2thumbsup

TwoSeven
8th January 2005, 15:24
I do agree with the bikes should be unmodified but with an end can on, and I would suggest that for the top classes as well. If you look at a modern 600 the kit thats on it is not far off race spec anyhow - including road tires.

Many of the factories do race version of their bikes that are sold without all the road kit to make them cheaper for the racers. Triumph and Aprilia and Honda all do this - not sure about the others.

Proddy racing has alway been about buying a bog standard bike and thrashing it - whats more the new bikes are not that much more faster - if at all than ones that are knocking on 5 years old, so even those who have older bikes can still stay competitive.

Once you allow modifications to be made then it comes down to those with the most money rather than those with the most skill, and those without will eventually lose interest and quite.

When you talk about premier proddy classes it has to be 600 and litre bikes because thats whats common on the road and for sponsers show casing what is likely to sell is what gets the punters buying.

I do like the F3 class where everyone on the other machinery gets to zap round. So you could have F1 as litre bikes, F2 as 600s and F3 as the others (of any capacity) and all classes should be open to anyone.

Motards (its the new world craze) should still be a class and so should the classics and chairs if there are enough.

bloodnut
8th January 2005, 16:19
You can run as many support classes as entries allow, just make two classes NZ championships and make them special, give them extra practice and longer races. The top class should form on the dummy grid with umbrella girls - all that sort of stuff.

All the support classes just add to the program, i also agree with jazzing it up a bit, FMX displays, burn-outs and wheelie comps etc spice it up!

cheers
Jared

Kickaha
8th January 2005, 16:57
You can run as many support classes as entries allow, just make two classes NZ championships and make them special, give them extra practice and longer races. The top class should form on the dummy grid with umbrella girls - all that sort of stuff.

All the support classes just add to the program, i also agree with jazzing it up a bit, FMX displays, burn-outs and wheelie comps etc spice it up!

cheers
Jared

The majority of the people (racers)I asked at that John Britten meeting said that while it probably all looked good for the general public lining the bikes up,umbrella girls,tyre warmers etc they thought it was a big wank that took up time that could have been better used and they got pissed off waiting for the races to start,but more importantly they did realise it provided a good show for the public as thats what they see on TV when they watch GP/WSK

I think a ride by like Wanagnui so the public can put faces to the names would be good as well.

Dont agree with only two championship classes,all that means is that some guys won't ever race in a NZ championship as they either dont wont or can't afford a 600cc or 1000cc,I race sidecars myself so that counts me out of the championship as well

Motorcycling Canterbury a couple of years ago had a stunt rider out in the lunch break,he put on a very good show and was well received,at the JB meeting I think they had some FMX guys but it was a bit windy for them and they had a couple of 250 Superkarts out in the lunch break(making the bikes look slow), I think they also need more stuff for the Kids to make it more attractive as a family day out.

What about having the manufacturers have their new models on display,that created a bit of interest at the JB meeting with the new CBR1000 and I think Eric Woods had a display in the tent along with the Britten display some 250 Superkarts and Sidecar landspeed record attempt,haven't seen anything like that at the Nationals in recent years

As for your points about how many watch the GP1 or the 500 class compared to the 250/125 quite valid but I've found a lot of that to just be snobbery when the reality is the 125 class has been the best to watch for race action for several years but because they're only "little" bikes a lot of people think they're not worth watching

I dont beleive the problem is with the classes or how many races or how long they are,it is all to do with the promotion of the events and getting people to attend them either a racers or spectators,the JB meeting was better promoted and advertised than the nationals ever have been in the last few years and got the crowd support as a result but even with good prize money on offer that the 600 class wasn't very well supported and the Motard class was dropped

bloodnut
8th January 2005, 18:39
1) The majority of the people (racers)I asked at that John Britten meeting said that while it probably all looked good for the general public lining the bikes up,umbrella girls,tyre warmers etc they thought it was a big wank that took up time that could have been better used and they got pissed off waiting for the races to start,but more importantly they did realise it provided a good show for the public as thats what they see on TV when they watch GP/WSK


2) Dont agree with only two championship classes,all that means is that some guys won't ever race in a NZ championship as they either dont wont or can't afford a 600cc or 1000cc,I race sidecars myself so that counts me out of the championship as well

3) Motorcycling Canterbury a couple of years ago had a stunt rider out in the lunch break,he put on a very good show and was well received,at the JB meeting I think they had some FMX guys but it was a bit windy for them and they had a couple of 250 Superkarts out in the lunch break(making the bikes look slow), I think they also need more stuff for the Kids to make it more attractive as a family day out.

What about having the manufacturers have their new models on display,that created a bit of interest at the JB meeting with the new CBR1000 and I think Eric Woods had a display in the tent along with the Britten display some 250 Superkarts and Sidecar landspeed record attempt,haven't seen anything like that at the Nationals in recent years

4) As for your points about how many watch the GP1 or the 500 class compared to the 250/125 quite valid but I've found a lot of that to just be snobbery when the reality is the 125 class has been the best to watch for race action for several years but because they're only "little" bikes a lot of people think they're not worth watching

5) I dont beleive the problem is with the classes or how many races or how long they are,it is all to do with the promotion of the events and getting people to attend them either a racers or spectators,the JB meeting was better promoted and advertised than the nationals ever have been in the last few years and got the crowd support as a result but even with good prize money on offer that the 600 class wasn't very well supported and the Motard class was dropped


Ok, its good to get some discussion going on road racing. I'll answer your questions one at a time.

1) 1st priority - you must look after your sponsors, therefore this is good for sponsors so shorten the programm somewhere else to make allowences. If the presentation takes too long shorten it, evolve the set-up as we go.

2) I'm talking solo classes, sidecars are an excellent spectacule and must remain, they are an important part of NZ's road racing history. The other solo classes are welcome too run at the national meeting but as support classes not championship. You must have stepping stones and goals for racers too aspire to.

3) Totally agree.

4) I agree that often the best racing is in the smaller classes however watching a rider man handling a wheel spinning monster is an excellent sight and like v8 supercars thats what the crowds want. We need crowds therefore we need big bikes.

5) Good promotion is important but you must first have a spectacule to promote, get the top 50 riders in nz into the top two classes on similar showroom models with full manufacturers supported teams, cheap control tyres, imagine twenty nutters on very similar performing machines flying into the first turn! Then you have something to promote. The race practice is to short to make bike set-up anything more than a lottery and I challenge any racer who has done some mileage at a competitive level to disagree! It is un-safe and mad to have such short practices, and all so they can run three classes of classics or separate 125 gp and f3 races, this country is PC mad.

cheers
Jared :ride:

gav
8th January 2005, 20:41
Hey Jared, I remember you, you used to race a YZF750SP, white with green logos?
I'd like to see more involvement with the Aussies, if we ran race series say now, wouldnt some of the top Oz teams be interested in racing here as practice for their champs etc? The Bears guys were able to bring over some Oz talent for Sound of Thunder, why not talk to some of the top teams over there, maybe run a home and away series?
Always thought it a shame that say Peter Clifford couldnt look at running Simon Crafer on the Red Bull Yamaha here a few years ago, so many of the top GP teams have kiwi crews, would have been cool to see him race here, be cheapish pre season testing for them, wouldnt it?
Shame we never got to see Aaron Slight race here after he was dumped by HRC, why didnt Honda talk to him about running in our Nationals?
I went to the V8's here at Ruapuna and the following weekend back again for the bikes, shame the weather was shit for th bikes, but the cars certainly put on a good show. Awesome in the pits, all top teams had brolly dollys handing out posters and stuff, posing for photos etc. Really good to see.

NordieBoy
8th January 2005, 21:09
I don't know about road racing - but in the off road community there is a backlash against MNZ,they all want to get away from anything to do with MNZ - and that's why things like Desert Storm are so successful...pay and ride.Bring back the day licence.

Things like the Laidback Trail rides here that you just turn up to on your 2004 CRF 450 and the next guy is on a 1979 XR250 and there's some kids on 50cc quads and all pay $25 or so and everyone has a ball from 11am till 2pm or so.

The last one we had was on a day forcast for heavy rain but that cleared before the event started and we still got around 100 bikes and this was a 2 1/2 hour drive from Nelson. People were heading off to it thinking it was going to be raining all day and they still went.

Family involvement.
Fun.
BBQ.

The VMX races here usually have a track set up for the kids to putter around on as well - Day licenses no problem - MNZ? who are they?

Family involvement.
Fun.
BBQ.

That was the last Nelson Port race as well. They are closing off the back straight for log storage. Other venues are being looked at though.

Motu
8th January 2005, 21:38
True,and you don't need spectators either - no one spectated at Desert Storm or enduros,VMX,trials.The modern spectator has been conditioned to be fed drama in big doses,they need to be pandered to - and they aren't enthusiasts,just thrill junkies wanting a big prang to make their day.

I'll repeat Nordie

Family involvement
fun
BBQ

Racey Rider
8th January 2005, 22:47
Here's a thought I'm batting around.

I'm still a newbe as far as racing goes. But maybe I can help out other Newbe's to get started on the track.

I'm going to try and ride the full Winter series.
So Maybe I could be a Newbe Rep at the Vic Club rounds.
I have a tent thing that could have desk with info on it. I could wear a bib with "Newbe Rep" on so they know they can ask me basic questions.

Futher more, I could maybe hire my 150 out to them to ride in Clubmans for the day. Say $40 + crash damage? It's only a cheap bike so no big deal. and if they didn't crash it, I could still ride in Streetstocks too.
They would need their own helmit, but maybe a big old set of leathers could be supplied? Boots? Gloves? Basic training.

Might suggest it to Vic club. But what other things do I need to think about??
If a newbe could get a race days clubman riding for say $100 all up, would some be interested as a first experamental go? $100 = $40/bike, $30/day license, $30 club fee. Shame we have to charge them all those fees at all really.

If it were to work, we could then lobby Kawasaki NZ to lead us a new KRR150 or two to sponsor a one day track ride programme, aimed at getting newbe's on the track riding their (Kawasaki's) bikes at no charge. Get Dunlop to sponsor the tyres for said bikes.

What am I missing?

That Guy
9th January 2005, 10:48
Always thought it a shame that say Peter Clifford couldnt look at running Simon Crafer on the Red Bull Yamaha here a few years ago, so many of the top GP teams have kiwi crews, would have been cool to see him race here, be cheapish pre season testing for them, wouldnt it?


I agree that would've been cool for kiwis to see; but it would not have been cost effective in any way. It probably cost upwards of $50,000 USD to do one test (fly away test that is, like Sepang or Motegi; NZ would be no different by the time you get 7 tonnes of bikes and equipment air freighted out here; 20- 25 staff flown out etc) - and you've got to be sure you're getting useful test data etc for that kind of money. NZ tracks are no where near being good enough, or safe enough, to offer any meaningful test data unfortunately. Plus a major factor in testing at tracks that you race at is you get set up data for the race in 6 months; and you have an established bench mark lap time from the previous race.

Otherwise you're talking about a pure promotion thing were one bike, rider and mechanic would get flown out and do some laps in between racing - still would cost $10,000 or so; and who would pay for that? Not the team; that would be an additional expense for the sponsor if they wanted it; and Red Bull's market in NZ wouldn't warrant that.

Pity. Nice idea though.

On the topic of makeing road racing more popular I must emphasise Frosty's comments - PMCC are doing something right - nearly 100 riders at a club meet? They're doing something right....

TwoSeven
9th January 2005, 11:28
Even renting a bike would be too expensive for NZ. I once had the opportunity to pick up to Aprillia RS250s that had their factory lease expire (and the team was picking up some new machines). They were going for US$60k each - which included a bike, and 2 engines.

I doubt there would be a team in NZ that could afford to even run one for a weekend.

bloodnut
9th January 2005, 12:18
That's why every National event I have attended has an unofficial practice the day before the offcial qualifying/practice

Now thats not possible at a street race unless you want to increase costs even more,but everyone is in the same boat

Jared I take it the $25000+ for a season include club days as well? and I'm guessing a large part of that would be in tyres alone?
Shore if you can afford the time and money you can practice an extra day, however even on these un-official days you still only get 15 -20 min sessions max and if you are a privateer you will be on old rubber.

How can you test if your tyres are going to last a fifteen lap race if practice is 5 -8 laps?

How do you determine if your jetting is right with the engine temp at full hot in five laps?

How do you find out if your gearing will be ok in another riders slip-stream?

As your speed increases all of these things need re-adjusting such as gearing, suspension set-up and jetting, and as any rider worth his salt will tell you "only make one change at a time", so as your set-up advances you often get more problems to solve in less and less practice time.

Sure you say everyones in the same boat - or are they, the guys on the factory supported bikes can afford to test outside of the national series, us privateers can't - period.

When i raced I lined up beside Robert Holden on a supplied BMS Ducati, Jason or Andrew on the Brittens, Haldane on a 955 corsa, Russell Josiah and Tony Rees (who both owned bike shops) on well developed superbikes, these guys (except Tony) would be throwing new tyres on for every practice session were as I had 1 set for each entire meeting.

Young up and comers who don’t have a dad who owns a bike shop have no show.

Most of the riders above raced all over the world then returned at xmas to race our series while I had to work 6 days a week at a job to pay for the 6 weeks of racing @ the nationals, so no riding all year until just before the champs began. Talk about an un-level playing field.

We need a class everyone can afford that isn’t to technically advanced for the new comers.

The top 2 classes should have 2 x 30 min practices on the Saturday with full commentary and lap times through-out. We must build up the rider’s profiles and personalities and make it a spectacle for the public.

Cheers
Jared


$25,000 a season includes tyres and travel, entry fees, petrol, oil, brake pads, chain and sprockets, engine reconditioning and development and paint work, chassis development, sponsor promotions etc etc etc.

Paul in NZ
9th January 2005, 12:23
One of the biggest motorcycle race events in NZ is the Pukekohe Classic Festival of Speed!

It's well advertised.

Has an easily identified central theme.

Has international 'stars' supporting the theme. (that feature heavily in the adverts)

Has something else to look at. (displays of vintage bikes etc)

Has something to interest the whole family.

Usually has an air display at lunch time.

Has knowledgeable and interesting commentary.

Vicki even enjoys it for 3 whole days! I think the people that run the events have forgotten a basic fundemental. If you want a big event you have to provide the crowd with entertainment. It's not all about racing, thats not quite enough these days, people expect a little more!

Perhaps a live band at lunch time? A few fair ground attractions. A giant screen with onboard camera action? Technical sessions for riders wanting to take up racing complete with a have a go session?

Perhaps you could win a new bike if you buy a ticket?

Paul N

Ghost Lemur
9th January 2005, 13:05
New Zealand is and will be (for the foreseeable future) a nation where if you want to do this sort of thing you do it for love.

If you want big prize money/prestiege move to UK, US, Europe and try your hand with the big boys there.

NZ just doesn't have the population to sustain things like this on a scale that means people can make money. It's not just racing either, the NZ music scene is the same way.

Some years ago I had the chance to meet Che Fu's sister-in-law, and she told me that him and the other members of Supergroove only made $5k each off of the multiplatinum, award winning Traction album. Hense why even though he's hugely successful, he was still on the dole. If they'd made that album (with the same success) in the US or the UK or even AUS they'd be millionaires.

Just a fact, when living in a country with less than a quater of the population of London. If you want that to be different, if you want the money to be here to sustain fringe activities like motorcycle racing, then you have to be willing to accept the concequences.

This would mean increasing imigration. More city congestion, increasing the population to at least over the 10 million mark.

Can't have it both ways I'm afraid.

TwoSeven
9th January 2005, 13:15
I took my dad to the cemetry circuit for the first time - he quite enjoyed it. However, these are one off promo events. Bike racing happens every weekend not once per year, so what you do needs to be different on the saturday than it is for the promo stuff.

Also, national events and series are just a string of promo events that are linked together. Again its different from the local stuff held at the local track.

Until the clubs get it together, forget about having a national series or anything else because the grass roots is where its all at.

I cant remember when I saw the local club in christchurch do any advertising on the radio etc, and the bike shops seem to be living in the 10th century BC when it comes to local promos.

FROSTY
9th January 2005, 13:18
keep in mind here -Im out there doing it not a sideline racer.
we are almost all in the same boat. Shit motor sport is expensive -there is nothing we can do about that. To get more people into the sport we
A- need to get more people to come along and watch.
b)get new blood feeding into the pool.
We really don't know how easy we have it in NZ --try racing in the UK --sure theres a shit load more racing -but theres also a shit load more expense.

svs
9th January 2005, 15:54
There's some good comments going on here - I guess much of it has been said to MNZ before - Do we say it again?

I agree with having say 2 championship classes and superbikes plus support. The best support series I have seen in the UK, we the one make series. Ones that spring to mind were Aprilia RS250, Honda CB500, BMW Boxer Cup etc. All these had bike available from the manufacturer and decent price with control exhausts and tyres. No other mods allowed other than setup and jetting. That would be great everyone is out on nearly the same bikes - and as long as the series run for 3 to 4 years there are always older bikes available as people move up the classes.

Time gibbes' SV series was a step in the right direction - I've even got one of the original bikes - shame it couldn't have kept going.

At club level you still need F3, clubmans, classics etc. so everyone who wants to race can. Just make the nationals a bit special - put on a stunt show at lunchtime or something, but give the punters some spectacle to watch.

TwoSeven
9th January 2005, 18:29
We really don't know how easy we have it in NZ --try racing in the UK --sure theres a shit load more racing -but theres also a shit load more expense.

I know its changed now but when the cibby 600 F2 came out there were 50 riders on the grid at brands within a couple of months - all on stock bikes. Most people just taped up the lights and away they went.

The only expense to be had was when the bike was binned and the odd set of tires. Thats why I like proddy racing so much. :)

Ghost Lemur
9th January 2005, 19:18
I think there are two different areas which seem to be getting discussed as one.

Firstly the grassroots racing. To me this is the vital area, if people are good enough they can progress to race in Aus, Uk, etc. So what's holding the grassroots back? From an outsiders point of view, money. It has to be affordable, crowds, prize money, etc mean nothing if you can't afford to give it a go. So how can that be solved? One area where I think it is being solved is here. How many people have got into racing through KiwiBiker? Whether it's been encouragement, advice, parts, help in repairs, whathaveyou. It's all helped. And that's what's needed. More support for the entry level. I'd hate to have a talented son who could go on to grand things, but be able to even get him into a starting point.

If you have that grassroots the rest follows. You'll have more talented riders moving on to the international stage, which will in turn mean local coverage will be increased. Which will make it more attractive for sponsors/spectators to go to the higher level races. I think on the higher level, one area which needs to be preserved/furthered is the actual street races, Wanganui, etc. These seem to becoming rearer and rearer internationally. Also maybe make the top national season shorter, less races. This makes it more affordable, plus less common and therefore more promotible(sp?).

My main point though is still NZ can not sustain a major motorcycle series. So don't try (at the moment, that could change down the track), but rather work on getting guys through the grassroots (see even the national series as an aspect of the grassroots) and onto the international stage.

Maybe do a kiwi team in the aussie series, like **** (can't remember what they're called sorry) did in the v8's.

Kickaha
9th January 2005, 20:50
My main point though is still NZ can not sustain a major motorcycle series. So don't try (at the moment, that could change down the track), but rather work on getting guys through the grassroots (see even the national series as an aspect of the grassroots) and onto the international stage.

Maybe do a kiwi team in the aussie series, like **** (can't remember what they're called sorry) did in the v8's.

NZ can and has sustained major motorcycles series in the past and is quite capable of doing so in the now and in the future,but to do some will require some changes in the running and promotion of these events

What's changed in the past years?

Well TV coverage has declined,all the major events used to be live on TV and now we see them weeks later if at all,if the Nationals were on live and the next round heavily promoted at each screening I beleive we'd get more public through the gate,at the very least if not live then on TV before the next round

Advertising for these events is just about nonexistent,last year several people I spoke to weren't even aware the Nationals were on in Chch,in contrast the National car rounds are heavily promoted on TV and radio and attract large crowds,the only thing I saw for the local round was a few posters and these were only available a 2-3 weeks before the event

All of this require substantial sums of money or sponsorship to acheive
If people don't know it's on they won't be there

The National season isn't a long one,it runs over 4 weekends at four tracks,normally two rounds on consecutive weekends a short break and two more rounds,it's not a long season,although it requires a fair amount of travel and time off work.

Grassroots is fairly well catered for,with at least one club day a month and 3-4 have a go days a year to attract more people onto the track,a lot of people don't progress further than doing the have a go days,so how do we get them to take the next step?

A lot of local riders will also only support the local National round and quite a few will only run in the support class due to a reduced entry fee saying that the $140 entry fee is to expensive when they'll only be a backmarker

A Kiwi team in the Aussie championship would achieve bugger all if the people here don't know about it due to no TV coverage and even then I don't see that it would have much effect,I feel a better idea would be to get Aussie teams to race the NZ National series to increase the numbers on the grid and raise the level of competition(sidecars did this about 94-95),I think their rules are slightly different though but perhaps we could align ours a bit more closely to encourage Trans-Tasman competition.

gpercivl
10th January 2005, 08:48
Thanks to Racey Rider and others for reviving this thread I started when I thought it might be possible to influence how to get more people involved in road racing in NZ. I'm involved in 2 mc clubs, general committee for a road racing club & treasurer for a MX club so have been trying to do my bit to help out.

Both clubs have seen a drop off in riders and spectators over the last few years and it seems that the riders are moving to more deregulated events where they don't need MNZ regulations. MNZ re-introduced the one day license late last year and we saw numbers increase by a third or more at our MX meets...which should be a clear message to MNZ to make it easier to get people on bikes.

Personally I started racing 6 years ago at the age of 38 after watching road racing since I was 17. I made the mistake of starting on an F2 bike with too much performance and without the awareness of what correct tyre selection can help/hinder the learning curve. Hence I crashed a lot and slowed my learning curve. In 2003 I moved back to the F3 class and learnt heaps, and am now considering moving back to the 600 class with hopefully improved skills. Agree it's going to cost $25,000+ to get started which I'll probably be paying off for the next few years...but it's heaps more fun than F3!

I'm in strong agreement with Bloodnut, keep the 600 & 1000 class as true National Champ events, our youngsters Hayden F., Karl M., and Ross K. went across to Aussie last year and struggled to gain a point in the Formula Xtreme series which shows us where NZ road racing level is at.

Run a separate series for the grass roots riders as Tim Gibbes tried to do. In the USA there are at least 3 different levels of series catering for rider abilities culminating with the AMA. I've been lucky to spectate and talk to the riders at a few of these meetings while travelling for work and these are guys at my level, paying all their own costs. Their costs and travelling distances are about treble ours in NZ. As the up and coming riders evolve in the lower series they get picked up and sponsored into the higher series due to the amount of money 300 million people generate...in NZ we can't hope for that sponsorship although some is available if you develop relationships with people in the industry and outside (personally I'd rather that money go to the youngsters rather than oldies so I can watch the Slight's, Crafar's etc when I'm 60).

Motorcycle racing can't compete against play station, gamebox and xbox time so we can't hope to get the spectators back like we did at the old 6 hour's & Marlboro series years ago. Jap import cars have stopped the students only being able to afford to buy a motorbike when they left school and then getting hooked on motorbikes so making it easy to get riders on cheap entry classes is the only way to grow rider numbers again. PMCC are making it very easy to go ride on a track and so too are Vince Sharpe's Track Times. Hopefully with Taupo & Hampton Downs race tracks being developed we will have world class tracks to attract overseas competition so all is not bad for NZ.

AMCC & Vic Club are both well aware of all these issues but what they both really need are volunteers to get more promotion done and help with spectator entertainment, stunt riders etc. All the clubs I know are struggling to get enough people for quorums at meetings let alone try to take on any extra activities so if any of you do have some extra time, put your hands up at your local mc club, it can make a lot of difference.

Anyway, happy new year to all Kiwibiker's for 2005 and hope to see you all and race against some of you at a track again this year.

Cheers, Greg

http://www.nohair.co.nz

TwoSeven
10th January 2005, 09:42
i'd agree with that - also the bike shops must know what the younguns are buying, so whatever that is, should be a class.

The other thing for grass roots level is track access. Here in chch, events are few and far between. You spend months waiting for an event and then miss it because you forgot its on.

Also, there are quite a few folks with bikes they have for racing, but again, by the time there is an event on they've lost interest and are doing something else that weekend.

gav
10th January 2005, 17:23
Here ya go, mark these dates down on your calender!
Motorcycling Canterbury calender (http://www.motorcyclingcanterbury.org.nz/pages/calendar.htm)

TwoSeven
10th January 2005, 18:05
Cheers,

I might not be able to make the 4th of december at the moment. Still working on the tardis :)

BM-GS
14th February 2005, 09:55
Here's a suggestion: Bloody well advertise the racing!

I've been looking at trying to get the family (me, wife who's into bikes & a 2-year old bike-nut) to a race, and it's easier to find out when/how to get to WSB at Phillip Island than what's going on in Auckland!

All I can find out is that there is some sort of race going to happen on the w/e of 5/6 March this year (2005 - this is an old thread, and most listings ion the www are old and/or have no year on them! [if they have only the months of May/June/July on, I assume they're old]).

WTF is going on that weekend? There can't be racing on Fri, Sat & Sun, so I'll take a flier and aim to turn up on Sunday, but where do you park? what time does it start? what's there to see? what else is there to do when the 2yo gets bored?

I think the biggest problem is that bikes don't figure on the national radar, so things are imploding. If I'm actively looking and I can't find out, what's he casually-interested bloke/grrrl gonna do?

If anyone's got a link to a website which tells me this stuff, point away.... the Endurance Racing in May is well written-up.

From the point of view of starting people out in road-racing, a single-make series sponsored by a manufacturer has to be the way to go. SV650, etc. CB500s worked for James Toseland. And Leon Haslam, tho having a dad who raced GPs helps!

More tracks near-ish to poulation would help - there's a good use for Whenuapai.

svs
14th February 2005, 11:13
Couple of sites:

http://www.mnz.co.nz
http://www.vicclub.co.nz/tiki-view_events.php

All MNZ sanctioned events should be on their website, and I try to keep the coming events on the vic club site as up to date as possible - but it's biased to vicclub events.

I agree that advertising would be good, even just billboards by the state highways.

ben444
14th February 2005, 12:55
Just a thought from a guy who has 3 400's in his shed... Get the SV650's out of formula 3, and leave it with 400's... To be at the pointy end of F3 you need a SV650 or some really special engineered artwork... or a costly 450cc 400... A second hand SV would cost about $6-7K at best, that's not exactly an entry level budget... and i thought F3 was suppose to be an entry level class... An old CBR400 or FZR400 would be around the $1500-$2000, it wouldn't set any lap records, but you would be started and having a ball...(and you wouldn't be to far behind) it's pretty dejecting when grandad laps you on his brand new SV... and I think that's it, Homer Simpson philosphy on competing, "...can't win, don't try..." so low budget 400 racers stay away. Last year there was a club meeting down here with about 10-15 400's, last time I went out there was 2, with a field of 4... pretty sad. I'm sure the bikes and people are still around.
Just because a bike was made, we need to put it in a race class. What happened to the SV650 class??
My opinion is, SV's killed F3

Like the idea of Production classes of using production bikes

svs
14th February 2005, 15:19
The SV class (which I though was a great idea) was killed when MNZ made the SVs a F3 bike.

If F3 has bikes costing $1500-$2000, then what? Do you ban the 450's as well? Most reckon (and I'm not expert) that around $6k gets you a competative bike for F3 - be that 250,400,450 or 650.

Vic club has entry level class 250cc superstock. That's where the $1500 bikes come in.

k14
14th February 2005, 19:07
What I heard was that suzuki "sponsors" MNZ and because of this they are obliged to let the sv650's into F3. There is no other manufacturer that has a bike equivalent for that price so suzuki has a monopoly on anyone wanting to enter F3 that has a bit og $$$ and wants something new to race. Same reason why the gsxr's are cleaning up in F1 and F2 aswell.

pritch
14th February 2005, 19:55
Just by way of comparison in 1961 road races were held at:
Rotorua, Ardmore, Levin, Wigram, Tauranga, Waimate, Ohakea, Cust,
Levin (again), Bell Block (Taranaki), Whangarei, and of course Wanganui.

To save you the trouble of counting that's a dozen meetings covering most of the country.

The big winner that year was HR Anderson. The only guys who had sponsorship probably owned a bike shop or had a dad who did.

I just loaned some books to a guy who is racing a classic bike. Before I delivered the material I re-read a lot of it. The thing that stood out was the absolute self-reliance of the racers. This extended as far as riding the bike to meetings, "mechanic" on the back hanging on to the spares, and riding it home after. (On one occasion after rebuilding the back wheel.)

The sport needs more publicity ( hopefully Prime will help here) but IMHO sponsorship would be counterproductive. If the competitors need sponsorship to start, they didn't really want to do it in the first place.

I was blown away by that Canadian guy in the Paris/Dakar, he shelled out over C$70,000 just to compete. That's the spirit. (And a big thanks to whoever published the link :-)

gav
14th February 2005, 20:56
Just a thought from a guy who has 3 400's in his shed... Get the SV650's out of formula 3, and leave it with 400's... To be at the pointy end of F3 you need a SV650 or some really special engineered artwork... or a costly 450cc 400... A second hand SV would cost about $6-7K at best, that's not exactly an entry level budget... and i thought F3 was suppose to be an entry level class... An old CBR400 or FZR400 would be around the $1500-$2000, it wouldn't set any lap records, but you would be started and having a ball...(and you wouldn't be to far behind) it's pretty dejecting when grandad laps you on his brand new SV... and I think that's it, Homer Simpson philosphy on competing, "...can't win, don't try..." so low budget 400 racers stay away. Last year there was a club meeting down here with about 10-15 400's, last time I went out there was 2, with a field of 4... pretty sad. I'm sure the bikes and people are still around.
Just because a bike was made, we need to put it in a race class. What happened to the SV650 class??
My opinion is, SV's killed F3

Like the idea of Production classes of using production bikes

Just out of interest why do you think F3 is an entry level class? Terry Fitzgerald, Jason Easton, Jason Nairn, Andy Bolwell (up until this season) aren't novices and having been racing F3 for years now? Clubmens is where you should be starting. You can also buy a cheap 125 GP bike but again you may not be at the pointy end of the class. If you want cheap road racing, race a 150 or try buckets!
And SV's havent killed F3, probably saved it for a few more years, take the SV's out and the field is starting to look like a Post Classics field :yeah:

Posh Tourer :P
14th February 2005, 21:30
I think the motorcycle scene could take a leaf out of the NZ V8 Series book. They have managed to make it look far more like the Aussie V8s, with the sponsorship and TV coverage in the same style. They introduced new rules for control tyres etc etc (not sure exactly what they did, but control tyres at least were in there).
The coverage made it look more professional, getting more people attracted, meaning sponsorship easier to get, making the top flight more affordable and also higher standards (more money etc).
I suspect that NZ motorcycling is not in the state the V8s were, the interest is probably far lower. However, in recent years, the V8s in NZ have had a great revival in interest.
Perhaps someone more acquainted with this could try and pinpoint why exactly they are now successful, but I suspect it relied on making it more of a "spectacle" for people, and TV. People like glamour...
If you are receiving $125 for winning the top class at a race meeting, it isn't glamorous, its pathetic. How are people supposed to get excited about anything if there isnt the appearance of racing for high stakes?
I know you who are purist fans will not like it, I've seen it in the rest of the thread, but the sport can't rely on purist fans alone, it needs to get wider appeal... somehow.... :spudwhat:
The casual spectator can't appreciate every nuance in a race, they need more blatant excitement.

Posh Tourer :P
14th February 2005, 21:33
One of the biggest motorcycle race events in NZ is the Pukekohe Classic Festival of Speed!

It's well advertised.

Has an easily identified central theme.

Has international 'stars' supporting the theme. (that feature heavily in the adverts)

Has something else to look at. (displays of vintage bikes etc)

Has something to interest the whole family.

Usually has an air display at lunch time.

Has knowledgeable and interesting commentary.

Vicki even enjoys it for 3 whole days! I think the people that run the events have forgotten a basic fundemental. If you want a big event you have to provide the crowd with entertainment. It's not all about racing, thats not quite enough these days, people expect a little more!

Perhaps a live band at lunch time? A few fair ground attractions. A giant screen with onboard camera action? Technical sessions for riders wanting to take up racing complete with a have a go session?

Perhaps you could win a new bike if you buy a ticket?

Paul N

Good points, theres the entertainment.... It might be dismissed as frippery by those who want to watch racing for race craft's sake, but it brings in the people, and that is what is required....

Syphon_Life
20th February 2005, 03:33
well ive been convinced, by members on this site to throw money at an old crashed race bike ive had sitting in my garage,
an 89 fzr400 the last time i could get it started it was such an adrenalie rush
but a few problems

its leaking oil from somewhere im not too sure,
and my rear calliper needs rebleeding but the nipple bolts are rounded...
and a rubber seal for the front brake resivior, mine is all melted and shit,

the biggest problem,
it wont rev over 5000 i am not sure why, if anyone can help with a solution please do so,
hopefully will see some of you soon on the track!

Kickaha
20th February 2005, 08:42
There's a couple of members running those bikes so it wont be to long before someone is along to point to you in the right direction

Might pay to post about the bikes symptoms in the racing or sports bikes forum as it may get missed in here.

Racey Rider
8th March 2006, 14:49
I have never had much interest in watching F1 car racing on TV.
But for some reason, this A1 car racing does interest me.
I think the differance is that in A1 it is clear to me, who the man for me to cheer on is.
The New Zealand team.

Having someone to cheer on raises the enjoyment level of any sport.
So I'm thinking, if new people come to watch bike racing, who are they going to get behind and cheer on when they don't really know the riders involved?

What if more was made of the provice where riders came from?
Would spectators enjoy the day more if they could cheers for there home town team?
Team Auckland. Team Taranaki. Team (somewhere else).
It works well for things like Stockcars, Rugby, Prostate Champs.
Worth a thought?
Maybe,
maybe not.

FROSTY
8th March 2006, 18:23
RR funny you should mention that --Ive been tossing the idea around with SVS to run a TRI club series.
The idea is its 6 rounds -2 auckland 2 manfeild and 2 taupo
3 clubs from 3 regions.
Your idea takes it another stage--team racing for your club

enigma51
8th March 2006, 18:29
Its all about funds. As long as the spending is kept to a minimum it will work

Sketchy_Racer
8th March 2006, 19:28
I Vote team

'The Wellington Welly Crew!!!!'

YEAH!!

Brian d marge
9th March 2006, 00:45
I hope someone is collecting these 2 cents , cos heres another one.

Racing. Its Horriffic. I wouldnt go even if it was free.

The last one I went to in NZ was Ruapuna, the weather was cold and windy, the only places to go were a truck with some drunks sitting on chairs , A pub ( whose publican was REALLY REALLY GREAT, looked after my dog while Iwatch a bit of the racing- I think cos the dog drank more beer than I did , but that was waaay nice of the fella) BUT I wouldnt take my child in there and the wife doesnt drink and a hot dog stand selling the same crap I could buy in the dairy ( I am not to keen on wallpaper paste in red stuff ( tucker Fu$$er) )

6 bikes on the start line with the same people winning. :woohoo: not .

I think it was 2 seven who drew the parallel with the MX scene, mom dad the kids having a family day out. You buy the bike, gear and thats it. There are races every weekend ( I assume ) its a family thing. dad tunes the bike mum makes the sandwiches, kids roar around on the bikes.

Here in Japan we have the same for race bikes , mini bikes, 80cc and now 100cc classes. These are REAL RACE BIKES. ( I am sorry but buckets while being great fun and a VERY creative class I have issues with )
when I say real race bike they are FULLY adjustable and I am not kidding when you see a 5 year old with his race face on !!! Waaaay cool on a minature race bike!
Then you progress into GP125 , then/or ST600 or GP250.

In the begining its all about mum and dad ......and to be honest my wife ( and I assume a lot of other wifes wouldnt be so keen on a overcast cold ruapuna with nothing to do other than watch things that look the same, go round in circles. ( My wife loves Motogp because rossi and Ukawa , the only 2 names she knows , look cute )
So get the familys in by providing facilities, get junior interested in racing , Then the prize money could be improved ( really 125 dollars for a national ) I got a hand towel in a club meeting that was worth more than that ! ( It was for starting the race, !)

The support seems to be there already, MNZ , motodynamics etc .

Now Paeroa, .... F#$%%^ing Fantastic. I went there once, weather was beautifull ( I know ) ... I had cold beers , ( I didnt have kids there but it seemed like there was stuff for them to do. The wife could look at the shops ( throught the window, I dare not let let her through the door otherwise she spends my valuable beer tokens.)

The grid looked full, proffesional , bright colors in other words it looked the part. My grandma likes the NZ superbikes because of the colors and they look the part , but the foggotten era she called them bikies hooning around .

With my own racing I am trying to Look profesional. the pit area , the bike , and my deportment. EVEN if I come last ( and very often do) at least I look the part.....( being professional also helps with bike setup etc )

:done:
Sorry to go off, but when I get home will modify this post with a link to the Japanese racing scene and a link to a NZ event and you can see what I mean ( If I can do it !)

Stephen
Jap racing scene
http://mfj.or.jp/user/contents/Watching-a-game_info2004/BBMFJ/index.html

Ixion
9th March 2006, 01:23
Sorry chasps , but present road racing is mind numbing boring .I'ed turn up at meetings and do the decent thing, but it' s BLOODY BORING. One multi coloured bit of plastic is ahead of another multi coloured bit of plastic - or vce ceersa . I should care less ? Terminal boring. And I can't even get a decent meal let alone something I could lure Mrs Ixion along to. Sort your shit out guys, make it interesting, provide some spectator facilities and maybe we'll come.Don''t keep trading on the "we're racers so support us regardless" shit.

Shaun
9th March 2006, 06:00
What I heard was that suzuki "sponsors" MNZ and because of this they are obliged to let the sv650's into F3. There is no other manufacturer that has a bike equivalent for that price so suzuki has a monopoly on anyone wanting to enter F3 that has a bit og $$$ and wants something new to race. Same reason why the gsxr's are cleaning up in F1 and F2 aswell.


You need to get your facts write before you start babbling total bullshit like this, I thought you were educated

k14
9th March 2006, 06:37
You need to get your facts write before you start babbling total bullshit like this, I thought you were educated
Yeah well if you cared to look at the date the post was made you would see it was well over a year ago. I was a bit more nieve back then (compared to now) and was just repeating what other guys told me.

Shaun
9th March 2006, 07:02
The past is always remembered, especially by buisness people, which there are a lot of on this board.

Sorry if I offended you K14.

We all know I have a lot to say about the racing scene in Nz, but I am an old man at the game and have nothing to loose by being straight up.
Please, any up and coming rider reading this pay attention

If you cannot post factual, positive comments about racing or companies involved in it, DO NOT SAY ANYTHING!

Some day, some where, some one will remember some thing that you may have said, whether it was said in good faith or not, and it will bight you in the arse

FROSTY
9th March 2006, 07:24
Shaun --No I disagree with you.
This forum is a place for people to express what they feel and what they "know' ITS BLOODY FANTASTIC.
For every K14 (sorry dude) who speaks up theres another 50 guys muttering under their breath the same thing.
By getting it into the open we can clarify the situation and Give them the correct information.
Misinformation is the worst enemy of anyone trying to achieve

Not what you say but how you say it.

Shaun
9th March 2006, 08:34
Shaun --No I disagree with you.
This forum is a place for people to express what they feel and what they "know' ITS BLOODY FANTASTIC.
For every K14 (sorry dude) who speaks up theres another 50 guys muttering under their breath the same thing.
By getting it into the open we can clarify the situation and Give them the correct information.
Misinformation is the worst enemy of anyone trying to achieve

Not what you say but how you say it.

Frosty, this forum is to do as you say, and yes it is fantastic, I am so surpriesd I knew nothing about this site untill about 6 months ago.

I may be short in stature HA HA, I am also short of time. I often just say enough to get the point accross, which is often taken to close to the heart!

If you think it is good professional practice for a good up and coming rider to make postngs that are a million miles away from the truth, I have no idea what to say to you about it.

Example

You as a car sales man

You get on a web site and start making postings based on rumour rather than fact about one of the brands that are the life line to the company you work for and see how far up the chain you get

I made my post based on lesson's I have learned along the way to get where I got with my racing, I have made a lot of big mistakes with my mouth, talking when I should have been listening! And I would hate to see any good rider like K14 be penalised in the future because of it.

My 2 cents again

gav
9th March 2006, 09:14
Frosty, this forum is to do as you say, and yes it is fantastic, I am so surpriesd I knew nothing about this site untill about 6 months ago.

I may be short in stature HA HA, I am also short of time. I often just say enough to get the point accross, which is often taken to close to the heart!

If you think it is good professional practice for a good up and coming rider to make postngs that are a million miles away from the truth, I have no idea what to say to you about it.

Example

You as a car sales man

You get on a web site and start making postings based on rumour rather than fact about one of the brands that are the life line to the company you work for and see how far up the chain you get

I made my post based on lesson's I have learned along the way to get where I got with my racing, I have made a lot of big mistakes with my mouth, talking when I should have been listening! And I would hate to see any good rider like K14 be penalised in the future because of it.

My 2 cents again

Well, then maybe someone could come along and post the actual facts to clarify the situation? So then everyone knows, rather than people still left wondering......
I thought the SV's were introduced into F3 after Tim Gibbes ran the very successful SV series, and an allowance was made for those riders who had bought an SV, to be allowed to race it somewhere in a National class. I think F3 was going to be the only class suitable, as I don't think F2 exists anymore?
This is how I saw it, if not correct, please advise.....

slowpoke
9th March 2006, 11:10
Yeah well if you cared to look at the date the post was made you would see it was well over a year ago. I was a bit more nieve back then (compared to now) and was just repeating what other guys told me.
We've all got a responsibility to protect ourselves and our sport. Repeating "hearsay" of this nature does no-one any good but has the potential to do a fair amount of harm. I'm not talking about censorship or advocating muzzling derogatory comments, just think about what we are trying to acheive, what we are saying, how we are saying it and who could be reading/listening to it.
As a point to ponder: if you were Shaun and K14 was any good would you put him on an SV650?

roogazza
9th March 2006, 11:39
Overseas riders con'td: back in the 70's we used to get heaps of overseas riders to the Marlboro series, and Team Kawasaki from Oz (Neville Doyle's team of (the late, great) Hansford, Perry, Sayle et al) came over here sometimes for races like Onekawa (a street race in industrial suburb of Napier, for those too young to know!)

Great days, a Linda ? After returning from 12 years in Adelaide I was surprised that a win was still only worth $120 !!! But money wasn't why we did it ! we just loved bikes and competing. That 410 production class was a great starting platform. A used (standard !!!!) RD350 for $500 , tyres that are round and black and didn't wear out in five minutes and into it !! I did that class for years and it usually paid for it'self . Main expenses were travelling and motels etc. Gaz.

roogazza
9th March 2006, 11:58
Sorry just looked at the date of this thread. My excuse is my age !!!! G.

k14
9th March 2006, 16:01
The past is always remembered, especially by buisness people, which there are a lot of on this board.

Sorry if I offended you K14.

We all know I have a lot to say about the racing scene in Nz, but I am an old man at the game and have nothing to loose by being straight up.
Please, any up and coming rider reading this pay attention

If you cannot post factual, positive comments about racing or companies involved in it, DO NOT SAY ANYTHING!

Some day, some where, some one will remember some thing that you may have said, whether it was said in good faith or not, and it will bight you in the arse
Yeah no worries mate, that post was before i even had started racing so I was probably a bit nieve and gullable to post up here what i just overheard from someone who was probably biast. Bit hard for me now to take back things that i said over a year ago which could quite possibly come back to bite me in the arse. Back then I didn't have a clue on where I would be in regards to racing etc a year on. Heck, I hadn't even bought a race bike yet.

Shaun
9th March 2006, 16:42
Yeah no worries mate, that post was before i even had started racing so I was probably a bit nieve and gullable to post up here what i just overheard from someone who was probably biast. Bit hard for me now to take back things that i said over a year ago which could quite possibly come back to bite me in the arse. Back then I didn't have a clue on where I would be in regards to racing etc a year on. Heck, I hadn't even bought a race bike yet.

Good on ya mate, I'll buy you a beer when your'e old enough:motu:

Hope my point of it being a small world got across anyway, even to others that will have read this, you are one a few riders that are showing real promise and dedication to there sport:done:

FROSTY
9th March 2006, 21:31
now the F3 thing is something Im keen to see kept alive.
I know the guys riding 400's see it as unfair 650's (or 750's) being allowed into F3 but if F3 is to continue on into the future then we need to move with the times. there are no new or even nearly new 400cc machines coming into NZ the newest one is (i think) 1998 -so the bikes are getting old and by the nature of racebikes becoming higher maintainence.
650 twins at least are available new and nearly new -and for under 10k
The price will continue to drop as the bikes get older.
Im wondering if perhaps in the interem F3 should be split up into A and B grade -with a grade being 650 twins and MODIFIED 400/450s and B grade being stock 400s -they could start together but be 2 classes

FROSTY
9th March 2006, 21:37
slowpoke/shaun --i think ya missed my point-as long as there is life there is misinformation. if its being muttered undrr peoples breath-but still firm in their minds then they cant have the truth pointed out to them.
To use youe analagy -a customer who's mates mate told him a particular model was unreliable-unless the customer says it he cant have the correct information given to him

Shaun
10th March 2006, 07:17
now the F3 thing is something Im keen to see kept alive.
I know the guys riding 400's see it as unfair 650's (or 750's) being allowed into F3 but if F3 is to continue on into the future then we need to move with the times. there are no new or even nearly new 400cc machines coming into NZ the newest one is (i think) 1998 -so the bikes are getting old and by the nature of racebikes becoming higher maintainence.
650 twins at least are available new and nearly new -and for under 10k
The price will continue to drop as the bikes get older.
Im wondering if perhaps in the interem F3 should be split up into A and B grade -with a grade being 650 twins and MODIFIED 400/450s and B grade being stock 400s -they could start together but be 2 classes

Well said that man:stupid:

Ivan
10th March 2006, 11:30
Great Idea Frosty I'm keen to have a go at F3 racing but at the momment I dont have the dollars to buy a bike so will have to wait for a while pay my fine and pay some bills then startsaving up for a bike that I can race as well as my RS

Kickaha
10th March 2006, 18:36
You need to get your facts write before you start babbling total bullshit like this, I thought you were educated

Well if he was babbling total bullshit then so were a lot of others as it was believed by a lot of people that supposedly were "in the know" the only reason the SV was allowed in was pressure from the manufactuer


Well, then maybe someone could come along and post the actual facts to clarify the situation? So then everyone knows, rather than people still left wondering......


What he said:stupid:

Shaun
10th March 2006, 19:31
Well if he was babbling total bullshit then so were a lot of others as it was believed by a lot of people that supposedly were "in the know" the only reason the SV was allowed in was pressure from the manufactuer



What he said:stupid:

Go back and read the rest of the tread before you get all carried away:bash: I was trying to show a young and up an coming rider that it is not wise to go around running of at the mouth without total facts, ( even then)

So sorry this seems to have upset you, but I stand by what I have said and will not be drawn into the politics of what it is that you are asking me.

Kickaha
10th March 2006, 20:00
Go back and read the rest of the tread before you get all carried away:bash: I was trying to show a young and up an coming rider that it is not wise to go around running of at the mouth without total facts, ( even then)

So sorry this seems to have upset you, but I stand by what I have said and will not be drawn into the politics of what it is that you are asking me.

I have read all the thread ( not tread :bleh:)and I'm not upset by it at all and I agree with what you are saying about about going on with out the facts, but if people aren't prepared to explain then people may take rumour as fact

I don't see why it is not possible to explain how the SV came to be made legal to race in F3 and who put it through and I fail to see what is political about it unless there was manufactuer involvement

TonyB
11th March 2006, 11:57
Here's my 5c (as 2c no longer exists)

For an answer I reckon we need look no further than the NZ car racing scene.
Think back to a few years ago the talented drivers were spread across a widely varying range of classes. Some of the classes were just plain stupid- for instance the Trans-ams. Rules differed between the NI and SI. Developing a competitive car cost so much money that usually only one or two cars ever stood a chance of winning. It was a true "deepest pockets wins" class, where so long as the driver had a bit of talent, money would buy the championship.

Then some bright spark came up with the idea of racing V8s. The rules were tight. The guys that had cleaned up in some of the other classes suddenly found the going a whole lot more difficult, because everyone was on a more even playing field. The racing was tight, people could relate to the race cars they were using. The crowds came, and suddenly the series became huge by NZ standards.

What motorcycling needs is a series that is INTERESTING! With tight regulations, and tight racing. It's been interesting to read through 3 years of posts. It seems to me that all the answers are in here. Listening to racers talk about the sheer expense of racing at the highest level got me wondering...

I'm not about to claim that ANY NZ motorcycling champion has won because of 'deepest pockets win'. Rider ability is such a huge factor that I don't believe that is possible. But I do believe that the racing would be a whole lot closer and more interesting if modifications were more limited, or banned all together. I believe there are riders languishing way back in mid field who could much closer to the pointy end of the race if they were on equal machinery. If it costs big $$$ to buy the bike, and then big $$$ to modify it, and then big $$$ to maintain it and keep it on good rubber, then why allow modification in the first place??? If the only major cost was the purchase of the bike, and then keeping it on good rubber (which it would use less of), wouldn't that be a better way to go?

I constantly read in mags "the performance of the (insert brand)1000 is equivalent to a factory Superbike racer of only a few years ago". So if they are that good, then why not race them standard? The racing would be much tighter and therefore more interesting.

If F3 is supposed to be an entry class, then why allow a modified new bike to run against some poor bugger on a 10 year old stock bike? If buckets are supposed to be cheap as 'buckets of shit' then why do the rules allow a commuter-bike-engined-friggen-GP-bike to line up against modified commuter bikes?

I have no problem with the guys who are doing this- they are acting under the rules. I have a problem with loose rules that allow people with the right resources to create a machine that beyond the reach of most of their competition.

roogazza
11th March 2006, 13:24
I have read all the thread ( not tread :bleh:)and I'm not upset by it at all and I agree with what you are saying about about going on with out the facts, but if people aren't prepared to explain then people may take rumour as fact

I don't see why it is not possible to explain how the SV came to be made legal to race in F3 and who put it through and I fail to see what is political about it unless there was manufactuer involvement



I don't think you'll ever get an answer to that. We all know Suzuki is very strong in this country . It goes way back to the 6hour black pipers of Dave and Nev Hissy . Then of course, who made our beloved 410 production class go to 550 ? For my money a class of production SV 650's isn't such a bad Idea , you just have to limit what the guys are doing to them.. G.

FROSTY
11th March 2006, 19:23
Is a frifgging nightmare to patrol --but I agree a proddy based class would be good.
Brand new SV650/kwakka650/hyusung 650 with the only mods allowed being tyres/brake pads and glass fairings replacing the stock ones.
No gearing changes allowed no shock changes etc.

svs
20th March 2006, 13:06
Don't want to start a flame war, but F3 was never supposed to be an entry class. It is the only class in NZ that can be classed a 'tinkerers' class where you are allowed to mod the bike to try and make it go quicker.

Entry level is Streetstock or clubmans, the 2 main classes (600 and superbike) are both production based, you've got to have space for a proper race machine somewhere. With the 250GP class going then what else is going to happen?

I agree with you about the buckets though.




If F3 is supposed to be an entry class, then why allow a modified new bike to run against some poor bugger on a 10 year old stock bike? If buckets are supposed to be cheap as 'buckets of shit' then why do the rules allow a commuter-bike-engined-friggen-GP-bike to line up against modified commuter bikes?

Cleve
20th March 2006, 17:18
Good point SVS and I agree. As a non tinkerer F3 became a too hard an option for me and I will look at it when some manufacturer produces an F3 legal "out of the crate" competitive bike. In the meantime I am doing the more expensive option of F2.

slowpoke
20th March 2006, 19:50
Ok here goes...I gotta try and keep myself under control 'cos I just KNOW I'm gonna twist off and start ranting...again...
I'm currently in the process of moving back to NZ after just getting a taste for racing over in West Oz. With just one short track (Wanneroo/Barbagallo) and huge logistical issues getting to the Eastern States the folks over there are seriously up against it...yet they still manage to produce top class racers and national champions. So what are they doing right?
1/ They run Racecraft courses (run by vlounteers) for both Novice and Advanced road riders to get a taste of road racing and basic race skill coaching before they get to race in earnest.
2/ Structured feeder classes A, B, C and a Clubman class, which is basically run what you brung (even a streetbike with basic safety modifications), everything from a stock 600cc to a modified Superbike, and it's amazing how often a 600 will win in a field of inexperienced riders. If you win a Clubman race you are automatically promoted up a level. Races are still based on capacity and/or grade but you end up with several races within a race so everybody is competing for something.
Now this gonna hurt some people but there are NO BUCKETS (they ARE part of the Historic motorcycle club). Like I said, this gonna hurt, but spectators want to see a...err...spectacle. They want to see nice looking and sounding bikes, piloted at high speed...and buckets often fall short on most of these criteria. Sure they are cheap and fun for the riders but encourage spectators they don't.
The most popular entry is a 600cc superstock bike, with basically only a pipe and gearing change, which you are allowed to race in both the 600cc open races and the Clubman races until you are promoted out of Clubman. This way the guys who need the most practice (noobies) get the most track time.
The sooner we get someone competitive onto the world stage the sooner the profile and interest in our sport will rise. To do this we need to be getting young riders onto bikes with adjustable high/low speed damping, adjustable swing arm pivots/steering head angles and plenty of mumbo as soon as possible. Knowledge is power and if we can't give our promising young people the fastest bikes then we can at least give them plenty of experience with the tuning capabilities that will see them in good stead as the quality of their machinery improves.
I'm not even going to get into the "share around the prize money", "we're subsidising the top guys" crap...personally I'd gladly pay $100-150 to get a riding lesson from an Isle of Man champion or the guy who rode the Britten to victory the world over. Hey, if you wanna piece of the pie, ride a bit quicker.

slowpoke
20th March 2006, 20:11
Sorry chasps , but present road racing is mind numbing boring .I'ed turn up at meetings and do the decent thing, but it' s BLOODY BORING. One multi coloured bit of plastic is ahead of another multi coloured bit of plastic - or vce ceersa . I should care less ? Terminal boring. And I can't even get a decent meal let alone something I could lure Mrs Ixion along to. Sort your shit out guys, make it interesting, provide some spectator facilities and maybe we'll come.Don''t keep trading on the "we're racers so support us regardless" shit.

So what the hell did you expect to see? I'm sorry but which part of "motorcycle racing" don't you understand? Surely when you thought "I'm gonna go to the bike races today" you KNEW you would see reasonably late model (plastic) machinery competing?
And you expected a "meal"? I doubt the advertisement featured the word "restaurant" in the any of the nomenclature. When you go to the rugby/soccer/V8's etc is the food substantially different? I'm not saying the food is fantastic but what did you expect?
For my money, if you don't find bike racing interesting and you are looking for a pleasant diversion then you are at the wrong venue.
Enough of the mindless bashing of our sport...if you've got a gripe, tell us what the problem is AND how you'd like to see it improved.

Brian d marge
24th March 2006, 19:01
one of the reason Rossi is so hot is he can Dial in a bike real quick , list of 5 problems he can pick the worst one solve it and eventually dial in the bike real quick and effectively.

That come I assume from experience. ( Me personally, I kept on reading about suspension set up , then tried to ride and think about it as I was riding , but to be honest I couldnt tell the difference between Low speed and high speed damping if you paid me. Most of the time I am to busy sh!tting me self.

So one day I bolted the supension down ( I used a heavy oil in the rear suspension, and then had someone video tape it,,,MAN you can SEE the loss of traction...) but I learnt alot about how suspension effect the ride

So I completly agree there needs to be a clear path from entry level to the top level. I know about Australia and do like the concept!. But it doesnt address the bike set up. Gp125 I like and they are still reasonably cheap....there one here for 10 000 yen ..bit of an older model and a bit scruffy ..but its v cheap !

As for amenitys I am completely on Ixons side here, I want to go to the bike racing with the Family BUT the look on my wifes face ........ She needs Shops , ( she like bike racing coss Rossi looks cute and she like the colors )

A wind swept Ruapuna, with the lone Hotdog stand in the paddock doesnt qualify as entertainment. If it wasnt for the bike I would honestly watch Shortland street instead,.... Reruns as well .

Pearoa is great, ( or getting there , havent been there with the wife yet ...but we would soon find out, Sherrifs can lap in 1,44 , my wife with a credit card and the hint of an open shop , 1.26 ...)

Remember There are 2 others in my family not just me , and they also need looking after. At the last mx I went to there was a CLEAN sink with a mirror tissues running water plonked in the middle of this field.... Not for us rufty tufty racers.... but for the wives and girlfriends.....

Stephen

FROSTY
24th March 2006, 20:05
trying to think of an entry level class.
I thought 250 production was the way to go---But NO --there are only a couple of NEW 250 four strokes available and they are well basicly sloooow.
150 street stock looked good for awhile but sorta died out. (not dead but not supported at national level)
Then i thought--AHA -500 proddy racing.
500cc TWIN cylinder 4 strokes. Totally stock including external gearing.
suzuki still has the good ol GSX500 available new or the SV400 second hand
Kawasaki Has the ER5 or the GPZ500.
I'm sure Ducati have a 500 as well
These bikes are available New as well as there being plenty of thousand dollar cheapies that with a new set of rings would be just as fast as a new bike.
This would be a class where you could take your say $3000 bike and be able to race right up to national level.

TwoSeven
24th March 2006, 20:37
What about the 125s as an entry level - usefull to teach race and bike craft - they are pretty simple machines ?

Motu
24th March 2006, 21:05
So what the hell did you expect to see? I'm sorry but which part of "motorcycle racing" don't you understand? Surely when you thought "I'm gonna go to the bike races today" you KNEW you would see reasonably late model (plastic) machinery competing?
And you expected a "meal"? I doubt the advertisement featured the word "restaurant" in the any of the nomenclature. When you go to the rugby/soccer/V8's etc is the food substantially different? I'm not saying the food is fantastic but what did you expect?
For my money, if you don't find bike racing interesting and you are looking for a pleasant diversion then you are at the wrong venue.
Enough of the mindless bashing of our sport...if you've got a gripe, tell us what the problem is AND how you'd like to see it improved.

You've just put it into a nutshell for me there - the word is arogance.Give us a reason to come and watch and we will.I too can't be bothered watching a meeting of lookalike bikes screaming around the track.So I don't go and watch.Balls in your court,not mine.

Sketchy_Racer
24th March 2006, 23:47
Well im a bit of dumbarse, but i like to put my word foward,

I would like to see a Class that runs only One bike, and a stock one.

For example, A hyosung GT250R, fast enough to be fun to ride,

Looks as good as a real racer (The fairing model)

They are cheap, Just about any joe blog can afford one (6000 brand new or some thing)

And as Frosty said they have to be completly stock except for tires and Fairings

All we need is to get a Major company to 'provide' A special bike (the same bike but a race orreitated one EG no Road crap)
and then sell them at a reasonable price.

Think about how close the racing would be!!!!

Ahhh dreams are free............

FROSTY
25th March 2006, 23:08
nahh RG--I thought of 250 production. -but the 4 stroke 250's are too slow--no disrespect to 250's.
500's on the other hand are about the same speed as the old 250 two strokes.

motobob
26th March 2006, 00:31
What about the 125s as an entry level - usefull to teach race and bike craft - they are pretty simple machines ?

Sorry mate but racing a 125 would put a lot of potential racers off racing. People are there to race not continually try to keep the bike running properly. However they do teach people skills, Its just that the machinery available here is old. I'm not sure how many late NZ Champions did their time on 125's but I don't think its many.

Frankly I think the level and or quality of the racing is bloody good. The problem is making the event fun and interesting. This is more than about watching bikes now. The biggest car series in Australasia is a two horse race and they all look the same. There is huge spectator support for it. Its all about people wanting to be part of the event.

$3000 bikes should not be part of National events. In fact crappy bikes should not be even on the circuits. Its a high speed event so machinery with the minimum amount of money spent on them are a danger to the rider and the other competitors.

Cleve Brown mentioned that overseas the events are more family orientated. We do it with dirt bike events so why not at our premier RR events.

Frosty's right in that a cheap minimal modification production based class similar to the old 250 production class should be reintroduced. This should also include a set amount of tyres to be used etc etc etc. Just adds complexity to simple ideas. But even these classes become populated with high caliber racers looking for easy wins. Which is always frustrating to the budding racer. There is also a disparity with the performance of non supersport bikes in relation to each other. This then has the rule makers trying to create an even playing field.



So should we have a one make class with controls ie "The Hyosung Cup".

Our racing classes are generally a result of what we like to purchase for road bikes. The dominance of Gixxers on this site is reflected by the dominance of Gixxers on the race tracks of NZ.

ZorsT
26th March 2006, 19:25
$3000 bikes should not be part of National events. In fact crappy bikes should not be even on the circuits. Its a high speed event so machinery with the minimum amount of money spent on them are a danger to the rider and the other competitors.

Gotta disagree there. My $750 bike did fine. (I'll admit it WAS streetstock)

The bike wasn't a danger to anyone (if it was, it was the fact it was my first time on a track, not the bike)

I can't even afford a $3000 bike. Racing a bike that costs more than what I can afford is out of the question. This would stop me racing.

Sketchy_Racer
26th March 2006, 20:05
YOU BARGAR!!!

you got a RG for 750....

im jealouse

Fluffy Cat
26th March 2006, 20:15
Just read all these posts again, seems the big prob is lack of suitable machines for one. The big companies are into 1000cc and 600cc bikes thats where the sales and competition are these days. Racing was never about cheap so forget that but, there are a few twins out there now sv's en's etc.
What about entry level twins.This would be looking towards the future and still allow the old 250's and 400's in till they faded away through a combination of old age and not been up to the pace.Then you could run a superstock 600 class and your F1. With the possibility of a pro twin group for all the big twins that are kicking around sp's rsv's tl's 996 etc.....

slowpoke
13th April 2006, 04:31
You've just put it into a nutshell for me there - the word is arogance.Give us a reason to come and watch and we will.I too can't be bothered watching a meeting of lookalike bikes screaming around the track.So I don't go and watch.Balls in your court,not mine.

I say again: WHAT DO YOU EXPECT SEE?
I'm not arrogant I'm just absolutely baffled...I mean, if you go along to the rugby and there's endless pre-game and half-time "fillers" most people soon get shat-off. The assumption by "promoters" (ok, I used the word reluctantly) is that there is at least a passing interest in the so-called "core activity". Yet you seem disappointed/resentful that something other than motorcycle racing isn't supplied.
If you "can't be bothered watching a meeting of lookalike bikes screaming around a track" then DON'T.
I don't mean to offend but we've all got choices to make and if you're into it and choose to go racing or choose to watch racing then cool...if you're not into it and choose to do something else then that's cool too. I just don't understand why you would turn up to a motorcycle race meeting and be disappointed when you see motorcycles racing.

Motu
13th April 2006, 07:45
/If you "can't be bothered watching a meeting of lookalike bikes screaming around a track" then DON'T.
.

Yes,I'm doing that part quite well thank you - now,how do you propose to get me to come and watch....or don't you care,because that's what this thread is all about.

pillion
13th April 2006, 08:21
I think Motu has a ggod point.
The biggest meeting in the coubntry is BOTS -as a track the place sucks
Bumps,high kerbing etc --but as a spectacle its fantatstic.food and t shirt stalls everywhere and a stunning atmosphere.

SOO--what do we need to do to recreate bots for our other meetings??
I hate to say it but I think the nationals need to be sold to a promotions company and given a lot more promotion.
The comment about tracks being shitholes--is 100% correct but then its the same track that the auzzie V8's race on yet 15000 or more people go there to watch.there is a carnival atmosphere created with stalls portaloos etc.

Motu
13th April 2006, 08:55
I've been watching motorsport since I was a kid,and we are talking the 1960's there...back when the Mt Wellington go cart track was dirt,when motocross was held on Mangere Mt,so I've put in the hard yards as a spectator,seldom a competitor.

I still watch speedway,and if you want to see a motor sport hanging on by the the skin of it's teeth but putting on a good show,go to a speedway meeting.You are up and close with the racing,the riders mingle with the crowd because their family and friends come to watch,the spectators are boyant,cheering and clapping,laughing and yelling good natured abuse to their mates in a spill,but showing concern for injuries.The races run rapid fire,the anouncers involved and knowledgable about the sport and riders,joining in the banter.

It's good fun - a long way from the aloof prima donna's of road racing.An attitude change is needed by the competitors - look at how much interest Rossi has generated in MotoGP by his competiveness and fun antics,take him away and interest would drop.Don't expect people to come and watch you,give them a reason to come and they'll be there...

Shaun
13th April 2006, 09:16
I've been watching motorsport since I was a kid,and we are talking the 1960's there...back when the Mt Wellington go cart track was dirt,when motocross was held on Mangere Mt,so I've put in the hard yards as a spectator,seldom a competitor.

I still watch speedway,and if you want to see a motor sport hanging on by the the skin of it's teeth but putting on a good show,go to a speedway meeting.You are up and close with the racing,the riders mingle with the crowd because their family and friends come to watch,the spectators are boyant,cheering and clapping,laughing and yelling good natured abuse to their mates in a spill,but showing concern for injuries.The races run rapid fire,the anouncers involved and knowledgable about the sport and riders,joining in the banter.

It's good fun - a long way from the aloof prima donna's of road racing.An attitude change is needed by the competitors - look at how much interest Rossi has generated in MotoGP by his competiveness and fun antics,take him away and interest would drop.Don't expect people to come and watch you,give them a reason to come and they'll be there...

Hey Motu, what do you mean by an attiyude change is required by the prima donna's? I know a lot of the best riders in this country, and if you were to ask them a question or say hi, you would get an awnser or a hello back, so where is the problem really?

It is alway difficult to compare an apple with a pair! The speedway world is brilliant as you described, partly due to the close enviroment it is run in, IE, it is up close, and it has held a huge spot in the hearts of KIWI petrol heads for years as the sport and culture grew when the old saying of GIVE IT A GO still existed! now we breed quite a soft PC culture. The road racing scene is totally a different kettle of fish, back in the old days that you refer to were brilliant, heaps of ROAD racing going on, lots ot Tobacco money to promote and bring over forign riders, loads of road bike sales etc etc.

I do not know how to fix it, but I would love to read your opinion on how to go about fixing it, you seem to be an intelligent person, so go on, throw out the way for us to improve our sport based on all your years of experience please mate.

To critisize is easy, to fix is hard!

Motu
13th April 2006, 09:53
That's the problem,I don'tknow,haven't got a friggen clue.

Shit,I just wrote another big rave,but it's all pointless so I wiped it.I blame modern culture - as an old fart that is my privalige,to blame the young for our ills.

R6_kid
13th April 2006, 11:00
That's the problem,I don'tknow,haven't got a friggen clue.

Shit,I just wrote another big rave,but it's all pointless so I wiped it.I blame modern culture - as an old fart that is my privalige,to blame the young for our ills.

but im young, an i love road racing... hence why i've been helping out as a marshall... however most of the biking community would rather be out enjoying their own bikes than watching some guy they dont know going extremely fast on his.

And they normally charge to watch club level racing... when was the last time you paid to go and see a club level soccer/cricket/rugby match?

R6_kid
13th April 2006, 11:06
Gotta disagree there. My $750 bike did fine. (I'll admit it WAS streetstock)

The bike wasn't a danger to anyone (if it was, it was the fact it was my first time on a track, not the bike)

I can't even afford a $3000 bike. Racing a bike that costs more than what I can afford is out of the question. This would stop me racing.

thats what he is sorta saying... you race against other people on similar bikes that they bought for similar prices... but who wants to come and watch a whole lot of rat bikes ringing their nuts off around a track - not me. I can handle watching 125gp bikes go around because they are doing good times (they top out at around 220kmh)... but to watch a field of RG150's go around a decent race track would be boring, especially for more than 6 or so laps.

Racey Rider
13th April 2006, 11:39
Ok, so 150's are slow. Would the fact that you know who's competing in 150's draw you to watch them? If you had someone whose side you were on maybe? If the top 150 riders (& 250's, Burglars :bleh:, but we need them :pinch: ) were in a tight battle for points, changing positions regularly in the race, would that make it better to watch them than the 600/1000cc bikes that go faster, but you may not personally know the riders? Do you prefer to see Good racing duels, or fast bikes? (not that the fast guys don't provide this, but just in comparison)

Do we need to create more empathy with the riders goals so you feel included and have someone to back, rather than just show how fast these bikes can go? (in our case,,,, not very fast)
Don't worry,, I don't know what I'm saying yet ether! :wait:

PS. Vic series club race events are Free for Spectators.

svs
13th April 2006, 11:54
And they normally charge to watch club level racing... when was the last time you paid to go and see a club level soccer/cricket/rugby match?

No we don't. Spectator entry to the VicClub Series is FREE (Can't comment for AMCC or Cantebury etc.). We want to get some exposure for our sponsors.

We've got to try and strike a balance for riders who want to race as cheap as possible, and spectators who want a spectacle.

k14
13th April 2006, 14:33
I think Motu has a ggod point.
The biggest meeting in the coubntry is BOTS -as a track the place sucks
Bumps,high kerbing etc --but as a spectacle its fantatstic.food and t shirt stalls everywhere and a stunning atmosphere.
Is it from experience racing there that you say the track sucks? Cause as far as I'm concerned they are some of the best tracks to race on in NZ. Nothing can compare to them. Obviously "best" is a fairly subjective word but I'm sure most other racers agree with me too.

No we don't. Spectator entry to the VicClub Series is FREE (Can't comment for AMCC or Cantebury etc.). We want to get some exposure for our sponsors.

We've got to try and strike a balance for riders who want to race as cheap as possible, and spectators who want a spectacle.
All canterbury events are free too. Only motorcycling events at ruapuna that I know of that cost to enter are Sound of Thunder and the nationals.

Ixion
13th April 2006, 23:44
OK. Going back to the original post


..the New Zealand road racing scene looks like it is spiralling down to inevitable oblivion within a few years...I'd like to ask for any/all suggestions from those interested on how to revive the sport in NZ.
..

So, the OP actually asked for suggestions. But it appears that when anyone offers any, people fly into a great huff and indignation that anyone should dare to suggest that the racing scene is not right now perfect in every way.

So , which is you guys? D'you want some input on ideas that might (no guarantees,but whatever you're doing now is not, in the opionion of the OP, working) help stop that spiral ? Or d'y reckon that it's perfect as it is and everyone who doesn't agree should shut up? Your call, but what you *can't* have is the deal where those who don't agree it's fine and dandy should support it anyway.

Now, on the basis that some of y' at least want to stop that spiral, here are some thoughts. They're the thoughts of a potential spectator.Not a racer The person you NEED to lure along if you're going to have decent spectator numbers.

Maybe you don't reckon you need spectator numbers. Well, could be. But seems to me that getting the crowds there to watch is key to the whole thing.

Firstly, cos spectators will pay some entrance fee - maybe not a high one, but something. That's income.

Secondly , spectators today maybe competitors next season.

Thirdly, cos being able to point to thousands of spectators is the best way to get sponsors interested. They're not really going to open their cheque books if the only people that see their name are your three mates. Ditto for TV and press coverage. Media assume that lots of spectators means audience. Your three mates don't rate TV time. Sorry.

Fourthly, a big crowd encourages riders to compete. Yeah, your three mates will cheer you on, but come on, it's gotta be a much bigger buzz racing in front of an audience of thousands. Bigger buzz, more interest, more competitors.

So, I reckon the first thing y'need to do is get the crowds in. How? Well guys, heres a revolutionary novel thought. Maybe by making a race meeting something that people other than your three mates find INTERESTING. A race meeting that provides a days good ENTERTAINMENT ; an ENJOYABLE outing.

Now, I don't know you. I don't know your three mates. I don't know Shaun - or Ray - or Jack - or Uncle Tom Cobbleigh. So the fact that you - or they- are racing isn't really going to make me put it in my diary as a "Must not miss". But I have been a biker for 40 years. Bikes and biking in all their aspects interest me - indeed fascinate me. So it doesn't really take all that much to get me along. And lots like me. But - you're not even providing that "not much".

Folk here keep asking "Well what do you expect ?". Seems to me that the answer to that, from me and all the thousands of people who AREN'T there is pretty clear. "Not much - and that not fun" . That's why they are not there!

So - the question you need to ask is "Well what do you *want*?" . What will make you put it in the diary as "Must not miss".

I can only answer that for myself. But, I'm probably as typical as any of the person you SHOULD be attracting and aren't. And some of the things I want may not be possible. That's fine , I don't expect everything. But you do need to hit some at least of them. And maybe some of them y'already are doing. that's fine too, not suggesting any of them are revolutionary. It's the totality, the overall experience that matters.

I want to know the meeting's on! Yeah, sure, YOU know the meetings on. And so do your three mates. I don't . Simple enough , but remember I don't know you or your three mates. So if you don't publicise the thing I won't ever get there. Publicity doesn't have to cost ; but you do have to work on it. I read the bike mags. I look in bike shop windows. I hang out here. I park my bike with other bikes. Lots of possibilities there to tell me the meetings on - for free.

I want company on the ride down (well, I don't m'self, but lots of people do, especially the younger riders). So you need to set up some meet-up points (and publicise them). Just like a KB ride. Then the trip down becomes part of the days outing. And you need someone at the meet-up points to give directions. Yeah, you and your three mates all know where the track is, but don't assume I do.

I want somewhere to park. Somewhere secure. Somewhere safe. Maybe for my bike. Maybe for my car or van. Somewhere better than a muddy potholed paddock. With the local Light Fingered Larry and HIS mates leaning over the fence.

I want somewhere to stow my gear. It's heavy and hot, and I don't want to lug it round all day in the hot sun.

I want somewhere where I can get out of the sun. Or the rain.

And bikers nowadays are getting older. Odds are , if I'm to get a day pass , I need to be able to persuade my wife/partner/SWMBO/current totty to come along to. She wants somewhere where she doesn't fry. Or drown. Somewhere comfortable. Maybe not all day. But somewhere to get a break from that sun.

I want decent toilets. And SHE absolutely demands them. Chicky type toilets. With nice stuff. Yeah I know, your three mates never objected to pissing behind the shed. Go find a woman and ask her for advice.

Like as not, I may bring the kids too. I want something to keep them amused. It's a long day for them. So some kid type amusements. Yes I know- your three mates aren't interested in that. And while we're on it, something to amuse SHE also, cos maybe SHE ain't totally interested in bikes. Yes, I know, geez, it's tough isn't it. Country horse race meetings figured this out years ago. Go do some research. Find a chick - not a biker chick - ask HER what would be fun for her.

I want something to drink. Like, beer. Yes, I know it's a race meeting. I'm not racing. I may not even be driving. I want a beer. SHE wants a glass of wine. In a proper glass, not a polystyrene cup. And something for the kids, too.

And I want something to eat. I don't expect silver service. I do want something more than a small carton of greasy half cold chips for $5. Give me some variety. Stalls and carts is OK, so long as the grub is OK. Personally I'm into grease - but SHE will want salads and healthy stuff like that. And some tables. Plastic ones will do, provided they've got some shade. Look at Paeroa at the BOTS. Go and look again. Take notes this time.

[Continued = stupid 10000 char limit]

Ixion
13th April 2006, 23:45
[Part two - cos of that stupid limit]

Now for the techy stuff.

I'm a biker. I go along for the bikes. I know that for your three mates it's fascinating that you've overtaken Shaun. Or Tom. That may attract my interest. Especially if I know a bit about who Tom is. So lets have some decent programs. With information in them. Information for people who don't know who Shaun is. Or Tom. Decent programs. No, I said decent ones. Try again.

But even when I know who Tom is (and it is interesting to see Tom and Shaun duelling ), it's the bikes I mainly want to see. And the riding. I mean riding, not just a plastic blob going round. I want to see the rider. I want to see the mechanicals.

I'm not so interested in whether they reach warp speed down the back straight or not. Yes, I know that's what you're interested in. But think about it. At meetings like BOTS where is it the spectators all cluster? At the corners, right. Where the bikes slow down. So you can see them.

So, given I don't really care that much about the top speed, here's a thought for a class. Naked bikes. Ooohhh - heresy. Everybody KNOWS race bikes have to have full fairings. Yeah ? Why? Naked bikes , spectators can see the bike. They can see the rider. Sure, it'll knock something off the top speed . So what. I could care less? And naked bikes are harder to ride (at race speeds) . That makes it more interesting for the spectators. And it's cheaper for the competitors. The fairing is always the expensive bit that gets smashed in a bin.

Naked bikes would make entry easier for new competitors. They can take their road bikes and remove the fairings - put 'em away nice an safe. Or race a street fighter. Or one of the naked bikes. Or a motard. I'm assuming it's going to be some sort of production based class. Cos if you're talking works racers then we're in a whole different ball game.

Naked bikes are more interesting for spectators. We get to see the bike itself, not just pretty coloured plastic. Yeah, I know, your three mates judge bikes by how pretty the paint job is. How gay is that, anyway, making how pretty a bike is your criterion.

Size? Well, I'm not too fussed. You could have a couple of classes. I'd suggest 650cc, max of three cylinders. Quite a few possibilities there. ER6, SV650 , motards, Ducatis.And not too expensive to join in.

Excludes the four cylinder race replicas. Make a separate class for them if you want.

If you wanted you could even have a mixed class , twins and triples to 650cc , fours to 400cc (though the latter would probably be a ZXR400 monopoly)

Modifications permitted? Hard one that, cos if you don't allow them (a) it's damn hard to police, and (b) you tend to get the situation you had when the Manx Norton ruled, where the winner was whoever could spend the most blueprinting the motor. But I'd suggest stock carbs (including jetting) or fuel maps and injectors. And stock air box and filters. That's easy to check. And if you can't change jets or mapping, other mods aren't going to help much.Yeah, I know, that means you can't fit trick exhausts. Boo hoo. And main frame stuff (wheels, forks etc) as stock.

How long a race? Well, I don't really like short races. They're no test of man or machine, and you tend to miss the action if you look away. If I want to watch sprints, I'll go to Meremere. I'd say a two hour race minimum , for the main event.

That's going to provide some challenging racing, on naked bikes. And it means that the race isn't settled by someone making a mistake at the beginning. Even a bin may not mean retirement, you can still catch up. The longer the race the longer the drama. 'Tis no accident that all, the famous races , TT, Monza, Le Mans, Daytona, Bathurst are long ones. Three hours would be better. Makes for strategy too. Tyres and fuel either have to last the race out (and cope with rain maybe!), or you have to have a decent pit crew.

And have a series of them.

So, there's some suggestions for you. I reckon a three hour naked 650 race series , with decent facilities would draw the crowds. But it's up to you. No-one's making you change. No-ones making me attend, either.

Ixion
13th April 2006, 23:57
[Part three- cos I just thought of this]

Think about a creche. Yes, now you stopped laughing, think about it again. Now go and organise it. Sigh. Go find that woman again - the one who told you what decent toilets should be like. Ask her. She'll explain why you want one.

Also. Get the bike dealers to come down, and bring some bikes to display. So I can look at them. And maybe they might even sell some.

And then think about combining a track demo day with the race. So after the race I can try one of those bikes the dealer is trying to sell me on the track. And make the dealer pay something for this.

On an unrelated rant. Just how gormless are bike salesmen in NZ anyway. at Paeroa, there was an area set up for dealers to display bikes. And they did. Presumably, cos they wanted to sell bikes.

I wandered around looking at them all for over half an hour. Obviously a biker (with helmet and all). Old enough to maybe have some money. Not one sales bod approached me. No-one slipped a business card into my hand. No-one asked my name and contact details to follow up on later. I even looked for a guest book to sign. Nope. So, how many potential sales contacts did y' miss out on there, guys. Not much point taking all those bikes down there if you can't be bothered to do the actual selling bit. Just a thought, like. Y'know, it's sort of what the sales bit in salesman means.

slowpoke
14th April 2006, 01:43
"aloof prima donna's of road racing" I'm buggered if I know where that's coming from. Just have a wander around the pits sometime and see the family efforts going on behind the scenes: Mum with the stopwatch and laptime sheet, topping up the cuppa's; Dad clucking around like a mother hen, nervously checking tyre pressures for the umpteenth time. Afterwards the bench racing begins as the barbies' get cranked up and the beers get sucked down. For the average punter with everything to lose and little to gain any interest shown by passers-by usually comes as a welcome and pleasant suprise.
"An attitude change is needed by the competitors" Once again I wonder at what has caused this misconception. Check out Shaun's career and then check out his posts here, if you've seen/heard a more down to earth world class Champion I'd like to hear about him/her. While I was working in Oz I bought an old ex-race bike that Broc Parkes (Aussie racing in World Supersport and previously World Superbikes) had been introduced to Superbikes on and he was more than happy to chat about it at a Yamaha promo trackday I fronted up to. Underneath the flash leathers and corporate smiles even the upper echelon of factory riders (5% of total racers?) are bike freaks just like the rest of us.
If you struggle to get involved with the local competition 'cos you don't now any of the names just have a stroll through the pits. Check out the young bloke or blokette who's mulling over which is the best of a lousy selection of seriously used tyres for their battered 5 year old pride and joy. Then follow their progress through a race as they try and chase down a moral victory over the later model steed in front of them.
Or pick a young "up and comer" pitting enthusiasm against experience as they battle for a podium with a more experienced rival.
For the morbid amongst you, hang around after someone has reversed the "shiny side up, rubber side down" formula. Watch as they come back into the pits with next weeks rent/beer/phone/petrol money effectively scattered on the back of the truck along with the rest of the broken bits. This is a long way from MotoGP where someone else is picking up the tab, this is the ultimate "User Pay's" scenario and the heartache is plain to see.

slowpoke
14th April 2006, 02:59
Jeeezus Ixion, here I was struggling to bash out a couple of words and you've written a bleedin' thesis! Ooooh, now there's an idea: Doctorate of Motorcycle Technology...time to go back to school me thinks!
Seriously, great effort with some very constructive ideas. Not that I agree with all them, but they are all worth considering...especially the creche idea. It seems obvious so I wonder if someone will pick up the idea and run with it.
I'm not so keen on the idea of long races. There IS a place for longer events but generally speaking at the smaller meetings I've been to they tend to end up fairly processional and the average spectator soon loses interest. They are also very expensive for the average competitor, with also sorts of flash wheel changing equipment, fuel rigs etc, not to mention the consumables themselves. Sprint races also encourage more spectacular "on the limit" riding which you just can't maintain for an extended period of time
OK, you aren't into the faired bikes, but I think the average spectator likes to see the biggest bad assed bikes around, you know the ones that look they are going light speed even when they are parked outside the local cafe, which like it or not, means a Gixxer, CBR, R1, ZX etc. I reckon they also want 'em to sound like the hounds of hell with their balls caught in a gin trap too, so let 'em at least bolt on a can of their choice, if not a full system.
As for spectators hanging around corners, I think the appeal lies in the cornering prowess: elbows bangin', knee down, sliders sparkin', backing it in, then boiling up the rear tyre as they get crossed up on the way out. Hmmmm, doesn't really sound like an SV650 does it?
I think you are right about a lot of people having a fascination for the mechanical side of things so the pits should always be free access. If the crews don't like it then they can rope off an alloted area but the spectators should still be able to get up close and personal.
And I've often thought to myself why local bike shops, motorcycle related businesses, or sponsors don't at least set up displays. The demo idea would be hard to control with all sorts of people joyriding with no serious aspirations towards buying anything, but it is worth thinking about.
Each to their own I guess, but those are some of the best suggestions I've heard so far. Well done Dr Ixion!

Brian d marge
14th April 2006, 04:58
friggen ekk that s tomorrow morning written off having a think about that one, To drunk now ( I an in training for the 60 ft table , and am trying to remove any sense of comon sense)

Stephen

Shaun
14th April 2006, 08:34
Ixion, bloody fantastic! I can gaurantee you that the powers that be will have a read of your thoughts. I have written so many things down over the years such as this, but if the office staff are non co-oporitive, these idea's go no where.

MY IDEA"S ON HOW TO HELP THE RACING SCENE

We have Paul Pavletich running the show at the MNZ office these days, ( EX Road race champion) and there is the AGM coming up next month where Sandra Perry is running for the boss's job! ( Paul and Sandra would have different rolls) Sandra ran MNZ when I first started racing nearlly 19 years ago, we had about the same amount of license holders then as we do now, Sandra ran this office with a staff of 2 only, and in my 19 years of being a share holder in the company I have not seen another person so dedicated and professional in her roll.

For any person to vote for Sandra, all they need to do is join a club $ 30 approx, then you have the write to vote through your club for Sandra to get the top job, at the moment, this is the most important step towards reviving road racing, we need a road person in there, the other fulla that is running for pres, is dirt focused, and if you read his press release on him self, he is also quite (confrontational?) - perhaps I should have stayed at school longer!

Iixon has hit it on the head I believe, his plan is the 2nd phase of road racing improvemnt after voting is done!

Now we need to vote for Sandra, tell all your friends, do not just talk about it, get off your arses and vote for it, because, we the racers get to race, but this sport is as much the spece's as the riders, probally more so, if you guys were not buying bikes and parts etc, we the skid merchants would have no skids to do, so once again, get out there and vote for Sandra Perry.

Racey Rider
14th April 2006, 08:54
Top effort Guys.
Will make sure my club gets a copy of that so it's not just wasted words.

.... Now we need to vote for Sandra Perry. .....
I was ready to vote for the other guy, as I liked his writeup.
But I know nothin about nothin.
So If you say Sandra the business,, I'll vote for her.

(your not getting any 'kickbacks' are you Shaun?? :confused: )

TonyB
14th April 2006, 10:03
Ixion- some top ideas in there mate. Could that possibly be the single largest KB post ever? That'd be about 2,500 Sniper posts :dodge: ;)

I guess you have a point with the plastic fantastic thing. A few years ago the NZ GP at Ruapuna was heavily advertised on radio and in the papers. It was $15 for the full weekend pass. The weather was perfect, but if there had been more than 750 spectators at the track I would have been surprised. I was shocked. Yet you head along to the Sound of Thunder and the place is packed. Go figure. Could it be that sprots bike riders would rather be out riding on a perfect day than watching someone else do it?? Or do they get bored watching too? I know I can't be bothered spectating for a whole day. There is invariably a lunch break that just drags on and on, and NOTHING happens. Somehow I have always managed to turn up about 1 race before the lunch break...

From a sponsors point of veiw, I need people to be able to SEE my rider, and their bike when they are on the other side of the track. I need somewhere to put my logos. The rider needs somewhere to put all the OTHER logos, cause lets face it, this is NZ- no one sponsor is going to stump up with enough $$$ to be a sole sponsor. Naked bikes have a tank (which the rider is wrapped around) and a tail piece- which will have the number on it. Where do the other sponsors and I put our logos? How do people follow 'my' rider when they are over 500m away at the far end of the track when the bike appears predominantly black at a distance-just like all the OTHER bikes. But enough of that.

Your ideas for making the racing more appealing for spectators and families are great. Just reading through it, it would seem that major clubs need to have a 'director of entertainment' who's major task is to ensure there's something to do for those who get bored. Like Ixion says, Bouncy Castles and rides for the kids. Beers and wines and decent food for adults- something happening on track ALL the time. Dealer displays with interested sales people.
The problem would be that you'd have to be prepared for some initial dissapointment- after decades of spectator unfriendly racing it would take a while for people to realise and accept that its a good day out.

TonyB
14th April 2006, 10:23
Just been talking to MrsB about this... crikey what a RANT!!!!
Ixion, she absolutely agrees with you on the lack of entertainment and facilities. Her point was that race meetings are run purely for the racers, there is no effort made to get the public involved. Only large meetings have programmes- yet even then they have no real info on the riders, no timetable "shit you don't even know when the bloody lunch break is going to be!!!" she said. Other points she raved about
-theres no commentary, except for large meetings and then you can't hear it. Maybe it needs to be broadcast on a low power FM station?? For instance at the last Canty Club meeting, Jon Lowther and Karel Pavich were out there- if you weren't a 'racer' or a knowledgeable enthusiast you'd have no idea you were watching an NZ champ, and a woman at that, the first one EVER.
-the food is crap and expensive (though personally I think the Canty Club meetings aren't too bad on this front)
-there's no beer or wine etc
-nothing for the kids to do.

So there you go. She absolutely agreed with Ixion.

Kickaha
14th April 2006, 10:26
I want decent toilets. And SHE absolutely demands them. Chicky type toilets. With nice stuff. Yeah I know, your three mates never objected to pissing behind the shed. Go find a woman and ask her for advice.

in the marketing studies our company has done if a woman goes somewhere and the toilets aren't clean and tidy she doesn't go back


I want something to drink. Like, beer. Yes, I know it's a race meeting. I'm not racing. I may not even be driving. I want a beer. SHE wants a glass of wine. In a proper glass, not a polystyrene cup. And something for the kids, too.

I've seen it done at car events with a proper bar area


And I want something to eat. I don't expect silveer service. I do want something more than a small carton of greasy half cold chips for $5. Give me some variety. Stalls and carts is OK, so long as the grub is OK. Personally I'm into grease - but SHE will want salads and healthy stuff like that. And some tables. Plastic ones will do, provided they've got some shade. Look at Paeroa at the BOTS. Go and look again. Take notes this time.

Again at the last car event I went to they had a dedicated food area, with a good variety of food, drinks etc and not just the standard hotdogs and chips (which I'm quite happy with)

I think the motorcycling communtiy could learn a bit from attending a few car races about how to look after the punters (this was a tier 2 meeting)

Kids? well Ruapuna at least has a kids play area with slides and swings and stuff

FROSTY
14th April 2006, 10:34
I see the general point here being that from a spectators point of view road racing is boring.
Yet Peroa and whanganui have over 10000 turn up to attend every year.
Ok so whats so special about them??
Is it the bikes? correct me if Im wrong but arent they the self same bikes we see racing at club and national level?
Is it the riders being more in ya face ? possibly so --with everyone getting into the carnaval atmosphere.
Ya know I reckon the people to ask ??
Baby Bikie and Pillion - Why? well BB is a kid who loves to have fun -if it aint fun he gets bored Pillion because she ISN'T a dedicated biker -she does stuff cos she enjoys it. She has no biker bias.

Motu
14th April 2006, 11:02
Is it the bikes? correct me if Im wrong but arent they the self same bikes we see racing at club and national level?
.

No,they aren't the same bikes - there is a huge classic and post classic field at those meetings.That's what I go to watch,when the plastic bikes come out I go for a wander in the pits and check out the bike park.

Wanganui,Paeroa and the Classic Festival - the biggest bike meetings of the year,biggest spectator turnout.....any coincidence it's the meetings with classic and naked bikes.How can you get those same people coming to watch your boring club races?

Ixion
14th April 2006, 11:23
OK, you aren't into the faired bikes, but I think the average spectator likes to see the biggest bad assed bikes around, you know the ones that look they are going light speed even when they are parked outside the local cafe, which like it or not, means a Gixxer, CBR, R1, ZX etc. I reckon they also want 'em to sound like the hounds of hell with their balls caught in a gin trap too, so let 'em at least bolt on a can of their choice, if not a full system.



Well, you have those racing at present. No-one (I think) is usggesting doing away with existing classes. You staill ahve the MotoGP and F1 F2 etc. But , the original post indicates that they are not enough. So the suggestion was a new class , to try to generate fresh interest. The thoughts about venue and facilities obviously apply to all classes.

It seems to me that such a class must be reasonably cheap one to enter. Not down at bucket level, but one where someone could spend less than $10000 and have a reasonable competative bike for a season. That tends to rule out the R1 level stuff. I don't know what it would cost to put a club level competative 1000cc racer in the field for a seson but I'm guessing a lot more than a new comer to racing is going to be willing and able to pay.

Certainly, such a class may be just a stepping stone to the "serious" stuff. But it would get new competators out there. And help draw the crowds.

As to the exhausts, I must admit I am myself in two minds about that - throwing on a mega was always the first (cheap and simple) step to tuning- and they do sound good. My problem was to think of a way that would ensure that engines remained reasonably stock , that could be quickly and easily checked by scrutineers, without major dismantling. Only way I could think of was to require that fuel delivery be stock standard, because that is easy to check, and if you cant change it, changes to compression, cams etc make little point. Unfortunately that also stops changes to exhaust.

BTW I have resiled from my thought that frame and suspension should be stock. I would actually suggest that frame and suspension mods be allowed ad lib , PROVIDED that the changed components are themselves production bikes ones, (from the same manufacturer, maybe ?? ) . That allows for people putting motard engines in classic race frames, and grafting on better forks and brakes etc. These sort of mods can be done reasonably cheaply, do make a "race" bike as opposed to a "proddy racer", and are easy to scrutineer.



...From a sponsors point of veiw, I need people to be able to SEE my rider, and their bike when they are on the other side of the track. I need somewhere to put my logos.
..


Valid point. Anyone got any ideas? Does seem a bit absurd though if the justification for full fairings is just to have somewhere to slap logos. Mind you, without a fairing the rider himself is much more visable. Maybe the logos could go on the leathers?.

TwoSeven
14th April 2006, 11:35
I know this might sound like a daft question. But exactly what do motorcycle clubs actually offer people?

vtec
14th April 2006, 12:41
Ixion, with regard to your new class idea, affordable racing a stepping stone to bigger and better things. I think you pretty much described Streetstock racing. It's well less than $10,000 to get started, and I think I'm getting pretty close to 200k/hr on my cbr250 so it's still very exciting. I run my bike with stock everything, but there are some things you are allowed to change. I have realised that it's way more exciting for the spectators if they have spoken to the rider's before they watch them race. It helps to humanise it, and put a lot more emotion into it for the spectator. But I personally don't have much that I could do to lure more spectator's apart from asking my mates and friends and acquaintances to come along and check it out. Food stall's is definitely a good idea. Also advertising the events to the spectators. And finally encouraging people to get down into the pits and talk to the people that are out there doing what they wish themselves were doing... racing.

Nice discussion guys. Some good ideas, just need to be acted on, to see if they will work... I'm not cleaning any toilets though. :oi-grr:

TonyB
14th April 2006, 13:27
I really don't want to turn this into an argument about naked vs faired bikes. Each to their own I say. But I really don't think people flock to street races just because there are naked bikes there. Think about the V8 touring cars- can you see the engine? Nope. Can you even see the driver? Nope. So why do the spectators flock to the races? It must be because the series captured their imagination- big noisy V8's slipping and sliding around the track. Race cars based on something you see everyday, and that many people own. That MUST have something to do with it. And lets face it, every year 10s of 1000s of people flock to the Isle of Mann to catch breif glimpses of fully faired bikes howling around at insane speeds.

I think people head to street races simply because its a street race. Its loud as hell, spectators are close to the action. The speed is easier to appreciate because the bikes are flashing past buildings. It doesn't even seem to matter that the buildings block the view of most of the track. It must be the whole 'shock and awe' thing, watching a bike howl down a built up street 200 plus k's is bloody impressive!

Maybe thats what we need? More street races to capture the publics imagination. The trouble is I guess the good ol' Resource Management Act could be used to effectively squash any new proposed race. And then theres the sheer expense of setting up fencing etc etc

ajturbo
14th April 2006, 14:06
I know this might sound like a daft question. But exactly what do motorcycle clubs actually offer people?

:grouphug: :psst: :Pokey: :banana: :puke:

FROSTY
14th April 2006, 14:31
Ya know tony --funny thing--about 20 years ago a bloke called Yogi martin floated the idea of a purpose built street track--
The idea was to actually desighn a road first and foremost as a road track
then sell it as an industrial area or perhaps a park.
Good ol godzone laughed him off . Funny innit--this place called er um-ohh yea melbourn in australia liked the idea ---course it was a total flop --no way a grand prix would ever be held there aye???

TonyB
14th April 2006, 14:48
Dammit Frosty, will I EVER have an original idea? A few months back either on this thread or another one I half jokingly suggested that the way to get people to watch racing would be to sell off the spare land around the race track as an industrial area and stick buildings on it, thereby turning the racetrack into a street race.

Oh well. Good ol Yogi eh!

trev
14th April 2006, 16:48
Yet Peroa and whanganui have over 10000 turn up to attend every year.
Ok so whats so special about them??
I

Available right there are :- hotels, (= beer, edible food, clean toilets ), cafes, shade, Mr Whippy, all the facilities a town offers PLUS a whole town getting behind the event.

Kickaha
14th April 2006, 17:49
Ya know tony --funny thing--about 20 years ago a bloke called Yogi martin floated the idea of a purpose built street track--
The idea was to actually desighn a road first and foremost as a road track


Never heard of the guy

Wonder if he ever heard of Bathurst

roogazza
14th April 2006, 22:03
Someone mentioned it before, Street racing !!!! Gracefield, Porirua, Lyall Bay, Onekawa, Hamilton, Hawksbury, Wanganui !!! How many are left and what happened to them ? Adding some of these Street tracks to the main circuits made for a "real championship" I felt quite sad to see about 4 people contesting our 250 GP class . I can also remember sweeping the street and putting up haybales the night before Gracefield , so i guess I must have wanted it badly enough. G.

kickingzebra
14th April 2006, 22:24
Carnival atmosphere? minibike racing for alll the wanabes that are amped up... Bike dealers bringing stock out, and all at street races. That is where the excitement is, because the people are there, which breeds excitement, which breeds people... etc
Why not make it entertainment as well, If motorbikes don't do it by themselves, use bands, gigs family etc?!

gav
15th April 2006, 00:04
Sort of lost track of this thread, are we talking crowds at club racing or Nationals? Street racing appeal is the one off, once a year deal. You think you'd pull that crowd if you raced at Wanganui every month? Nah, soon left to the die hard fans, the rest have seen it a couple of times and soon bored with it. I think Ruapuna shapes up OK, sure they've got a hot dog stand with hot chips etc, but also have filled rolls and cakes and stuff, reasonable range actually. Do they open the bar on a club day? Not too sure, but they do have a good area with picnic table etc. Also some good viewing areas where yopu can see the whole track.
You guys seen the figures for National bikes sales lately? Its boom time if youre a motorcycle dealer, sales figures are way up, I guess if you saw a motorcycle on display at a track, you don't think you could go and check out the dealer yourself? You don't think that some of those slack arse salesman are actually help put on the event as either racer, pitcrew, marshall etc? See the majority of people who work in a bike shop are enthusiasts unlike car salesman who for a lot are only interested in making money.
As far as a racing series go, I thought a 150 series promoted by the National dealers would be the way to go. The only problem witha one make series is you only have the backing of one franchise. The chance of having dealer backed 150 teams painted up in corporate colours would be fantastic? You'd all like to see Andrew Stroud on a 150? Probably get spanked by some 40kg 12 year old, but hey, what a hoot? I'm sure Yamaha could find something suitable even if it meant bringing in some TZR125-150.
How about a minimum weight level for bike and rider combo, and maybe a hp limit, use a mobile dyno, use as part of scrutineering and top 5 in each race to be rechecked?
The thing is if you have too many classes like bringing in the classics etc, the riders will get pissed off as they won't get enough races to make it worthwile to enter.

slowpoke
15th April 2006, 00:14
No,they aren't the same bikes - there is a huge classic and post classic field at those meetings.That's what I go to watch,when the plastic bikes come out I go for a wander in the pits and check out the bike park.

Wanganui,Paeroa and the Classic Festival - the biggest bike meetings of the year,biggest spectator turnout.....any coincidence it's the meetings with classic and naked bikes.How can you get those same people coming to watch your boring club races?

They are the biggest bike meetings of the year because the are accessible, once a year events. There is also the novelty and rare opportunity to see bikes made by manufacturers that are no longer with us, so the comparison is not really a fair one. If the Classic Festival was held four or five times a year you would not get the same support: people are only interested in reliving their youth so often.
Here we go again, but what is the problem with having a fairing? Aren't you interested in seeing/hearing an MV Agusta or Honda 6 GP bike running or racing in anger? These are the star attractions at classic events the world over.
As for bikes being plastic...I guess back in "ye olde tymes" people riding around on steel/cast iron bikes said the same about that there new fangled "aloominumm", and fancy having a (shock horror) vinyl seat, gimme good ol' leather that stays wet for a day and half after the sightest shower. Yep, nothing wrong with bakelite electrical components either...what's that? Cracking and oil impregnation? Oh yeah, apart from that. And I don't want any funny business with magnesium, titanium or carbon fibre (shudder!) parts on MY bike, no sirree, I like that Mack truck feeling between my legs. Thermoplastic sheathed wiring is for pussies too: nothing comes close to sitting on the side of the road on a nice sunny day, waving to all your buddies as they ride past while you hunt for an earth fault on your fabric covered, asbestos insulated, fat as your arm wiring loom. Yeeeeah, now THAT's motorcycling...
Lets face it at the 2046 Wanganui Boxing Day races we'll all be oooohing and aaahing over some immaculately restored Ducati 996R doing demo laps exactly the same way people wax lyrical about Manx Nortons nowadays. You may want to live in the then and there but most of us want to live in the here and now.
Give the throttle jockey's their choice of latest, biggest, lightest and fastest bikes and let'em get on with the show. If it happens to have a fairing on it then so be it.

Ixion
15th April 2006, 00:33
,,,Here we go again, but what is the problem with having a fairing?
...


Nothing whatsoever. But remember, the original question was "revive road racing".

Now, there are many races at present with faired bikes. And no-one is suggesting dropping any of them.And , presumably, those who are wanting to see faired bikes racing go along to those meetings.

But,our task is to ask what will attract the people who do NOT go at present. And we may presume that if they do not go at present, then more of the same will not attract them either.Otherwise, they would go now.

So, we must find some sort of racing that is different to what there is at present. And, preferably, is different in a way that we may have some reason to suppose is attractive. Attractive NOT to the people who are presently engaged in racing. But to the people that are NOT attending at present.

Much of this argument seems to be circular - the present racers and supporters saying "But I like xx". Yes, indeed. And good on you for liking it. But we are asking, what could be introduced that would be liked by the people who are NOT enthusiatic about xx. We know that xx does not work for them , because they are not there. Asking the people are ARE already there what THEY like does not assist us. And telling those that are uninterested in the present racing that they should like it because you like it will not work. Perhaps those uninterested in the present meetings are perverse. Perhaps they are olde tyme luddites. But, perverse or luddite as they may be, they are the people you must attract. Scolding them for being so perverse as not to like what you like will not get them to attend.

And what we come up with to attract those who do not attend at present must also be practical, and affordable, for the competitors. And the organisers. And the scrutineers.

Naked bikes do seem to have a support base. And have the advantage of cheapness , and availability.And are easy to organise and scrutineer.

So far no-one has come up with any other alternative. Except, more of the same that there is at present. Which, as we have seen, will not attract the people who are not attracted by it at present.

(I would say "motards" , but I consider these as part of the "naked bike" category)

Of course, there will still be the races for faired bikes. The suggestion was not to replace faired with naked, but to add naked to the repetoire.



You may want to live in the then and there but most of us want to live in the here and now.
Give the throttle jockey's their choice of latest, biggest, lightest and fastest bikes and let'em get on with the show. If it happens to have a fairing on it then so be it.


Fair enough. But then you must not complain that people do not come to the meetings. Because, whilst "most of us" want the "latest, biggest, lightest and fastest bikes" complete with fairings; it is manifestly apparent that "most of THEM" - the folk who are NOT there do not. And the THEM are far more numerous than the "us" - or this thread would not exist. THEY are voting with their feet, walking away.To get THEM to walk back, you must supply what THEY like , not (necessarily) what the "us" like.

slowpoke
15th April 2006, 02:39
Fair enough. But then you must not complain that people do not come to the meetings. Because, whilst "most of us" want the "latest, biggest, lightest and fastest bikes" complete with fairings; it is . And the THEM are far more numerous than the "us" - or this thread would not exist. THEY are voting with their feet, walking away.To get THEM to walk back, you must supply what THEY like , not (necessarily) what the "us" like.

You are pre-supposing that most of the people who aren't attending race meetings do not attend because they don't want to see the "latest, biggest, lightest and fastest bikes". While this may not appeal to some people the reasons for poor attendance could be, and will be, far more diverse.
The reasons could include poor infrastructure (tracks, access to tracks, facilities at the track for both spectators and competitors alike etc), competition from other activities, little or no promotion, no/poor commentating making the action difficult to follow, no Coppins or Townley on the road-race scene to spark interest etc etc.
Having attended national championship race meetings in Oz I can tell you that the cars in the carpark out number the bikes, so by and large I doubt that Joe Public really cares whether or not the bikes are clothed or in the nuddie.
Speaking of Joe Public, has anyone thought of consulting him? Yeah, I'm not sure of his address either, but maybe make a few assumptions and turn up at the V8's, Wanganui, Paeroa and conduct a simple survey regarding what would get them along to a national or club event. Maybe we could really generate some interest by rewarding survey participants with a pillion ride around the track at lunch time (I'm sure Shaun would volounteer his services - I can see the evil grin now!). If we could actually quantify the returns for investors (sponsors) then they might be more amenable to chipping in to improving facilities etc and reaping the rewards.
The answer to the puzzle lies in producing a well organised, well promoted event with fast racing, at tracks with good access and good facilities. We've got a good product that in our increasingly Nanny-ing State should appeal but it's the organisation, promotion, infrastructure side that is letting us down. Even if everything were put to rights tomorrow it would still take a period of time for awareness and perceptions to change, so there is no overnight cure. Take a look at the AMA in the States: well funded, high profile riders but poorly organised so the national road race scene is in a tail spin despite gaining the exposure of a MotoGP round and MotoGP riders/team owners. You've gotta have the whole package if you want to attract the corporate dollar and we are sadly lacking in most areas.
On a positive note, following on from backing the NZ road race scene, Ssangyong and Brother have also leapt in to support the road race scene in Oz, which will hopefully bring benefits and lead to uniformity on both sides of the ditch. So, if you get a chance return the favour and put some goodwill their way.

babyB
16th May 2006, 13:04
not sure if this the right place for this..........

you ask for ideas to revive racing well... well my first visit to Taupo new track has so disappointed me.......it seams to have done the opposite .....it sucks from my kids point of view!


now if i was racing my kids usually come too, course my 5yr old loves it.
situation is bike in pits kids with are with me. now kids are going to try and cross pit lane to get to viewing wall. now ya have to be over 4'6" to see over that wall, so kids don't see anything. they then have the chance of sliding down that steep little bank & rolling onto pit lane (which they still have to cross). the alternative is to send them way down the other end to grandstand where they are no longer visible from the pits (& its not exactly a short walk). i wasn't riding this day & i am so glad because of the above situation....so i now have had to explain why i cant take my kids to KBT3 (more to the point Taupo new track) & they think it sucks & so do i.

i do realize that the track is still having alot of work done there. & i so hope they intend on doing something to cater for our family's around the pits (or close to)

my point how can we encourage the next generation if they are not catered for
end of winge. sorry if its in the wrong thread

Keystone19
16th May 2006, 16:36
Actually you make a really good point BabyB. I was also at the track with the kids (same ages as yours) the week previously and found the same problem. Pits aren't really designed for kids are they!

Do you think the Team KB pit tent would provide baby sitters for the express purpose of looking after our kids and keeping them safe while we race?

Colapop
16th May 2006, 16:59
I've got a length of chain and some padlocks - I'd be happy to babysit for you!

motobob
17th May 2006, 19:46
I've got a length of chain and some padlocks - I'd be happy to babysit for you!

You obviously haven't met K19's kids. Chains and padlocks won't hold them. Rumour has it they have even escaped from Alcatraz.

ajturbo
18th May 2006, 08:10
Do you think the Team KB pit tent would provide baby sitters for the express purpose of looking after our kids and keeping them safe while we race?

yer frosty .. get ya shit sorted... add it to the list of

"things to do on race day"...

"get cage ( with bars) and big padlock for KB kids"...
note: must have bars on roof:done: