LAMS Harley

[davereid]

Issue 279 of "Live to ride" includes the interesting suggestion that Harley Davidson are considering making a 655 cc version of the 883 Sportster for an Oz LAMS compliant Harley, which if the KB experts are correct would become NZ compliant.

Of course its childs play to convert an 883 to 1200, and there are plenty of go fast parts for the 1200.

You could only assume that other manufacturers will be playing the same game.

That 600cc super sports (that makes way to much power for LAMS) will be available in a suitably re-chipped LAMS version.

How are the cops going to tell on the side of the road what bikes are LAMS compliant ?
Will it just become a defacto 660 cc limit ?

[tigertim20]

as for how theyll know, they wont. much like they often cant tell a number of common, illegal mods that already exist on both cars and bikes. if you arent doing anything to attract attention, and you are polite if you do get pulled over, theres fuckall chance youll get done.

as it is, plenty of people will mod bikes, get a legal 650 and swap over a litre twin into the chassis etc etc, just the same as lots of people have slammed 400's etc into their 250s

[pc220]

Based on power to weight, wont all Harley Fergasons be LAMS approved? :corn:

[scumdog]

Issue 279 of "Live to ride" includes the interesting suggestion that Harley Davidson are considering making a 655 cc version of the 883 Sportster for an Oz LAMS compliant Harley, which if the KB experts are correct would become NZ compliant.

Of course its childs play to convert an 883 to 1200, and there are plenty of go fast parts for the 1200.

You could only assume that other manufacturers will be playing the same game.

That 600cc super sports (that makes way to much power for LAMS) will be available in a suitably re-chipped LAMS version.

How are the cops going to tell on the side of the road what bikes are LAMS compliant ?
Will it just become a defacto 660 cc limit ?

There was the wee Buell Blast built a couple of years ago, 500cc from memory.

What happened to them??

[Katman]

Of course its childs play to convert an 883 to 1200, and there are plenty of go fast parts for the 1200.



Since about 2008 it hasn't been quite within a child's budget though.

[SMOKEU]

That sounds great. A 655cc bike, with about the same amount of power as a 400, yet with the weight of a 1200cc bike. Win. :lol:

[Shadows]

There was the wee Buell Blast built a couple of years ago, 500cc from memory.

What happened to them??

There's still a couple around that I know of.
500, and like all relatively gutless bikes, once you get used to having to go hot into corners in order to get the most out of them, they're definitely a bit of a "blast" to ride. I found they were built for people far more svelte than myself though.

[Shadows]

That sounds great. A 655cc bike, with about the same amount of power as a 400, yet with the weight of a 1200cc bike. Win. :lol:

Yeah, kind of what I was thinking. A great way for a learner to make life difficult for himself.

[davereid]

That sounds great. A 655cc bike, with about the same amount of power as a 400, yet with the weight of a 1200cc bike. Win. :lol:

Yeah I did laugh when the NZTA said in the LAMS explanatory documents that they wanted to limit the size and weight of motorcycles that learners could ride.

Of course instead of limiting the size and weight, they limited the cc rating. Which of course has no essential relationship to size and weight.

LAMS in A.C.T. does not include a CC limit, and as a result you can buy some lovely larger capacity cruisers, including much of the HD range.

But the NZ law specifies CC limit, and power-to-weight.

Thats OK for new bikes that the manufacturer publishes the data for. The NZTA will know the figures.

But what about my 230 km/hr Manx Norton ?

Not that I would loan it to a learner.

But what I want to know is, if the law specifies a certain cc rating and power to weight, will it be legal for a learner to ride it, or will it have to be on the magic list ?

How do you get your old bike on the magic list ?

How does Scumdog know when he pulls me over that my bike is on the magic list ?

[tigertim20]

I was under the understanding that the bike MUST be on the list, but that there will be a process through which you can make a submission to have an unlisted bike approved for you to ride. As manufacturers alter their bikes every year, each model year will require subsequent reveiw of the approved bikes, Im sure it will happen that for example, the 2013 gt650r will be legal, but the 2014 model will up the power enough to be banned.
none of that matters though because the world will end in 2012 right?:tugger:

[\m/]

That sounds great. A 655cc bike, with about the same amount of power as a 250, yet with the weight of a 1200cc bike. Win. :lol:
Fixed for you

[HenryDorsetCase]

There was the wee Buell Blast built a couple of years ago, 500cc from memory.

What happened to them??

in the death throes of Buell, they decided to scrap them. There was an ad campaign about two months before H-D killed Buell showing Buell Blasts which had been put thru a crusher and turned into cubes and they were using them as coffee tables.

It all became moot soon after when H-D shut it down.

Try and get the CW with the candid interview Steve Anderson did with Erik Buell. Buell is diplomatic, but pulls no punches.

H-D basically had no idea what they had, mandated a bunch of stupid shit, then fucked him over. Not cool. Sure, they had their own problems, but still not cool. Wish I'd bought some stock though when it as $7 a share. Its $38 today.

[scumdog]

That sounds great. A 655cc bike, with about the same amount of power as a 400, yet with the weight of a 1200cc bike. Win. :lol:

But I bet they sell though...all those guys who bought a Honda because there wasn't a Harley suitable for their licence catagory will now be able to side-step gayness and go 'straight' to a Harley!:lol:

[lakedaemonian]

A number of Aussie Harley dealers were having a look at the option of sleeve down displacement in 883 Sportsters to comply with the new LAMS laws internally within each dealership or somehow as a small group.

From having worked in manufacturing, I think that while it was a worthwhile exercise to consider...the cost to sleeve them down in kit and labour cost, then the cost to remove the kit and the difficulty in being able to charge MORE for a sleeved down and less powerful 883 than a stock 883 would have been a huge loss leader.

But it shows the desire for dealers in the HD network to be able to eventually offer a one stop shop motorcycling cradle to grave option for riders.

If I could have my way, I'd like to see HD produce a bike that's in the 500-700cc range that achieves the following:

*is perceived as a "real Harley"(NOT a Buell Blast built specifically as a learners bike first and last)
*is learner legal...trying to find one displacement size that suits the most international markets to allow for economy of scale
*is electronically programmable...much like manufacturers build in performance improvements to be unlocked in MY2013, MY2014, MY2015 but actually exist in a locked format in MY2011 and MY2012.

I know Sportsters have had a rep of being a "girls bike" which I think mostly comes from folks who have little to no experience riding Sportsters....hell I can ride any bike I want, but my last bunch have been Sportys.....and I'd probably be keen for a smaller Harley for a commuter if I liked it.

The funny thing is that when you go back to the renaissance of motorcycling in the 60's/70's the smallest 883 Sportster would still be bigger than almost all of the biggest bikes made during that era...which I think is insane.

In a world where giant SUVs are starting to shrink with rising fuel costs...we may see some of the same in motorcycling....quite possibly a return(for some) to motorcycle commuting...rather than motorcycling being mostly a leisure activity....the race for bigger motors and tires has to end somewhere...hopefully before it gets HUmmer SUV ridiculous

Speaking of Hummer.....I don't for a second wish the return of the Harley Topper or Harley Hummer...if HD made another Topper I'd probably top myself :)

But I think with a global focus for HD(we are nearly at the point of majority of sales being outside North America).....rising energy costs....and generally smaller in stature and less wealthy folks around the world we could see an HD model(or even model family) fall in a half step or a full step under the Sportster.

I have no insider knowledge.....dealers find out when customers do.....but I think it's easy enough to connect the dots to see what the future likely entails.

The only question I have is how well will Harley-Davidson riders handle a a Harley built outside of the US(much like Triumph building in Thailand)?

Here's some very recent info from Matt Levatich HD's COO:

http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2011-12-13/news/30511934_1_harley-davidson-harley-davidson-harley-brand

Just my 0.02c

[davereid]

Im sure it will happen that for example, the 2013 gt650r will be legal, but the 2014 model will up the power enough to be banned.

Yes this complicates matters. Of course I may be able to buy a 2012 model, sold new in 2014. How will the LAMS system cope with that ?

Or the Hyosung Dealer may say, these bikes are actually assembled in my workshop, ergo I can tweak the ECU back a little and certify it as LAMS compliant and have a bike that learners can legally buy.

As long as the NZTA says its LAMS, then I guess its LAMS even if its not.

With regard to the 883 becoming a 655, its actually a pretty small piston diameter change, due to the motor being such a long stroke.

If HD were convinced that it would sell enough I'm sure it would be done at the factory.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Yes this complicates matters. Of course I may be able to buy a 2012 model, sold new in 2014. How will the LAMS system cope with that ?

Or the Hyosung Dealer may say, these bikes are actually assembled in my workshop, ergo I can tweak the ECU back a little and certify it as LAMS compliant and have a bike that learners can legally buy.

As long as the NZTA says its LAMS, then I guess its LAMS even if its not.

With regard to the 883 becoming a 655, its actually a pretty small piston diameter change, due to the motor being such a long stroke.

If HD were convinced that it would sell enough I'm sure it would be done at the factory.

I'm not sure that anyone needs to learn on a bike that weighs, what, 200+ kg dry?

Theres an interesting thread on it on the Kneeslider: a US based site but catering for most walks of motoring life, from the H-D guys, to the sprotbikers, and the custom bike (cafe, bobber, tracker) guys. Richard Pollock from Mule is a regular contributor.: heres a link to a recent discussion about it:

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2011/12/14/harley-to-build-more-physically-and-financially-accessible-motorcycles/

[Squiggles]

How does Scumdog know when he pulls me over that my bike is on the magic list ?

Probably something simple like a different colour/marking on the license sticker if its a learner legal bike.

[p.dath]

Issue 279 of "Live to ride" includes the interesting suggestion that Harley Davidson are considering making a 655 cc version of the 883 Sportster for an Oz LAMS compliant Harley, which if the KB experts are correct would become NZ compliant.

Of course its childs play to convert an 883 to 1200, and there are plenty of go fast parts for the 1200.

You could only assume that other manufacturers will be playing the same game.

That 600cc super sports (that makes way to much power for LAMS) will be available in a suitably re-chipped LAMS version.

How are the cops going to tell on the side of the road what bikes are LAMS compliant ?
Will it just become a defacto 660 cc limit ?

I've actually spoken to a senior Police official about this. He told me he didn't know how it was going to be Policed (and he was one of the people that sets the policy ..).

He said his first problem was the law doesn't say how the 150kw/tonne is to be measured (e,g. at the wheel, at the crank shaft, etc) or how the weight of the bike is measured (wet, dry, with rider, without rider, etc).

I'm guessing the road side Policing will end up using a simple list. Is the registered make and model on the list - yes or no.

[davereid]

I've actually spoken to a senior Police official about this. He told me he didn't know how it was going to be Policed (and he was one of the people that sets the policy ..).

He said his first problem was the law doesn't say how the 150kw/tonne is to be measured (e,g. at the wheel, at the crank shaft, etc) or how the weight of the bike is measured (wet, dry, with rider, without rider, etc).

I'm guessing the road side Policing will end up using a simple list. Is the registered make and model on the list - yes or no.

That's interesting. If the law says 150 kw/tonne, thats like saying the speed limit is 100km/hr. Simple, and easy to understand.

If it is careless about inclusion of rider or fuel, shit you end up with the situation where a fat rider is legal with an empty tank, a thin rider legal with a full tank, and err bloody hell.

Then if you have a bike NOT on the list, but clearly legal, the NZTA may be liable for the riders legal costs if he defends it.

On the other hand, if they say you bike is legal when it is not, that would be down to them, particularly if you hadn't modified the bike.

Why would the NZTA take that on ?

They say the speed limit is 100, and leave it up to you to make sure you do less than 100, and up to the police to prove you were doing more than 100. They don't certify speedos etc etc, thats up to the driver.

If the law says LAMS is 150kw/t why would they take the risk of certifying that ? Surely it should be like speed limits.?

Law is set. Drivers responsibility to comply, police job to catch non compliance.

I mean if they publish a list thats giving a mandate to all bikes that are on that list.

And better still - if they put it on the licence label, thats a get out of jail free card for-ever for the rider.

After all I bought that bike NOT KNOWING the previous owner had de-restricted it. NZTA label CERTIFIED it was ok. Mens Rea your honour.

[SMOKEU]

That's interesting. If the law says 150 kw/tonne, thats like saying the speed limit is 100km/hr. Simple, and easy to understand.



I don't understand it. How is the power output going to be measured? At the crank, or at the rear wheel? Dry weight or curb weight? What if the manufacturer does not state the power output?

One manufacturer could rate their power output at the crank, whereas another manufacturer could rate the power output at the back wheel. How do you get around that? Put the bike on a dyno and find out? What about differences in dyno calibration? There's no simple way to convert bhp to whp without knowing driveline losses.

Even though the difference may be small, it could still mean the difference between yes and no for LAMS compliance.

[tigertim20]

I don't understand it. How is the power output going to be measured? At the crank, or at the rear wheel? Dry weight or curb weight? What if the manufacturer does not state the power output?

One manufacturer could rate their power output at the crank, whereas another manufacturer could rate the power output at the back wheel. How do you get around that? Put the bike on a dyno and find out? What about differences in dyno calibration? There's no simple way to convert bhp to whp without knowing driveline losses.

Even though the difference may be small, it could still mean the difference between yes and no for LAMS compliance.

if the info on a particular bike is not easily available, it wont be on the list.
if the info isnt presented to them in a format THEY want, it wont be on the list. simple.

as far as your last line, you are dead right, however given the decisions made by government surrounding motorcycles in the last year or two, we are fucking lucky they didnt completely pull out of the whole LAMS proposal, and leave us on 250's forever.
The government isnt going to give a fuck about one bike being a yes, and another bike being a no.

also, you point out that there isnt a way to perfectly determine the power of the bike, well, I would put money down to support the theory that even the units the police use to detect speed are not perfect. they will have a margin of error attached, be it operator or conditions derived, or the result of their programming, however even in the face of an imperfect measurement, they have set down their rules, and make do with what they have. I imagine it will be much the same for measuring power to weight.

[tigertim20]

If it is careless about inclusion of rider or fuel, shit you end up with the situation where a fat rider is legal with an empty tank, a thin rider legal with a full tank, and err bloody hell.



the fat rider should give up all the KFC then.
you are overthinking the idea. they will create a calculation through which they will define what is acceptable and what is not. one rumour (and it is only that) was that the calculation would consider the average rider weight as being 80kg.

[Gremlin]

I think it's all being over-thought (but then it's a government anyway). If manufacturing data is available, it is used to determine eligibility (I would imagine a standard dry or wet weight figure, rider not included). If a manufacturer wants something odd ball to be approved, it's on the importer/manufacturer to prove it's eligible. They would receive the benefits from that status anyway.

The list is hard and fast (but updated with additions). If it isn't on the list, it's not permitted. Easy to police.

[StoneY]

There was the wee Buell Blast built a couple of years ago, 500cc from memory.

What happened to them??

Funny you should ask...friend of mine in the South island has one of those.... it died.
Cannot get parts or a motor for it without selling her soul to the devil either.

Ended up getting a motor from an Aussie wrecker I think

[scracha]

But I bet they sell though...all those guys who bought a Honda because there wasn't a Harley suitable for their licence catagory will now be able to side-step gayness and go 'straight' to a Harley!:lol:

The day a moustached black leather tassel wearing Harley Davidson riding bubba biker calls me gay he'll get a smack in the mouth






(Unless he's got a purty mouth)

[scumdog]

The day a moustached black leather tassel wearing Harley Davidson riding bubba biker calls me gay he'll get a smack in the mouth






(Unless he's got a purty mouth)


Hmm, a tad uber-sensitive....not a little homophobic are you?:scratch:





Or is this behaviour standard for Honda riders???:lol:

[Kickaha]

If HD were convinced that it would sell enough I'm sure it would be done at the factory.

Can't see it ever happening, I really doubt the numbers would add up to make it worthwhile

[jasonu]

Can't see it ever happening, I really doubt the numbers would add up to make it worthwhile

Unless a similar law was put into effect in the USA (which will never happen).

[caspernz]

Based on power to weight, wont all Harley Fergasons be LAMS approved? :corn:

Oh that'll offend some....

Got me thinking that instead of reducing the power output, perhaps on some bikes ballast can be added to achieve power to weight for the licence period?

[jrandom]

Of course its childs play to convert an 883 to 1200

Not since 2007 (as Katman already mentioned). He didn't elaborate, but he's told me the story in detail in the past.

The 883s have thinner cylinder sleeves now. You can't just bore them out. The conversion effectively requires a whole new motor.

So don't go buying an 883 thinking you can turn it into a 1200 any more - you're talking enough thousands of dollars to do it that you might as well have just bought a 1200 to start with.

The 1200 motor is pretty sweet. I never thought it was really suitable in the Buells, it seemed wheezy (which it definitely is in comparison to motors like the Ducati 1000DS) but in a feet-up sit-back bone-shaking Sportster it's perfect. Particularly with opened-up filter, pipe and dyno tuned fuelling. Just the right amount of power.

They all weigh the same, though. 1200s, 883s, and presumably the proposed 655cc. It's a 250kg bike. Very nicely balanced with the weight down low, but the motor still has to pull that weight along. The 1200cc motor works well in it, but a 655cc motor would be taking the piss.

And it'd probably still cost about $14,000. I believe any learner would do better to wait with spending that kind of money until they were fully licenced and could take their pick.

[p.dath]

That's interesting. If the law says 150 kw/tonne, thats like saying the speed limit is 100km/hr. Simple, and easy to understand.

The measurement of speed is well defined.

The weight of an engine is not well defined (some manufacturers measure it without fluids - as in just the engine, others measure it with fluids - as in the running weight). The measuring of power is well defined, but not where you measure it (some measure it at the crank shaft for instance where it is high, some measure it at the rear wheel - where it is actually used (and which will be less than at the crank shaft)).


if the info on a particular bike is not easily available, it wont be on the list.
if the info isnt presented to them in a format THEY want, it wont be on the list. simple.


+1. The Government wont be looking to put bikes on the list. It will the manufacturers and importers wanting to get their bike on the list knowing that they will remove a barrier to sale.

I just want to clear up one aspect that has been said. Being on the list does not mean a bike is "certified". The list has no legal power. The act of parliament makes no mention of it.
The LAMs list is simply a list compiled by the Australians, and copied by the NZTA, to make working out which bikes meet the legislation requirements easier.

Because the act of parliament makes no reference to the list it will not be a defence to say that your bike is on the LAMs list, or any other list.

[davereid]

I just want to clear up one aspect that has been said. Being on the list does not mean a bike is "certified". The list has no legal power. The act of parliament makes no mention of it. The LAMs list is simply a list compiled by the Australians, and copied by the NZTA, to make working out which bikes meet the legislation requirements easier. Because the act of parliament makes no reference to the list it will not be a defence to say that your bike is on the LAMs list, or any other list.

What a load of old bollocks.

There is no Act of Parliament. Its been done as a rule, no Act required. And it appears the "RULE" will determine what bikes are legal with a god-list. From the NZTA website:

How will people know whether a motorcycle is LAMS-compliant?
The amended Driver Licensing Rule will contain a definition of 'approved motorcycle' for novice riders. The NZTA will also publish on its website a list of LAMS-compliant motorcycles closer to the time that the LAMS comes into force. This is in line with the current successful practice in Victoria.

In addition, a LAMS-compliant motorcycle will have an identifier on the vehicle licence label. Therefore, it will be obvious when purchasing a new or used motorcycle whether that vehicle is LAMS-compliant or not.

So, it would seem that NZTA are taking all the risk. If its got LAMS on the rego label, then as far as they are concerned its LAMS, even if its not.

The point is, NZ has a different motorcycle fleet to Australia.

NZ often gets the unsold US and Canada bikes, which are different spec to the Oz bikes. We also allow parallel importing, so we get private inporters importing used and new bikes from all over the world.

And unlike Oz, many NZ bikes are sold NEW by the importer with way more power than the Oz version. My ER6 was sold NEW with a range of performance enhancements fitted before delivery, meaning that even though its on the OZ list, it would not have been legal.

But I think its great.
Kiwis will be able to buy Oz list bikes, or "close enough", and get them labelled as LAMS approved.

[p.dath]

What a load of old bollocks.

There is no Act of Parliament. Its been done as a rule, no Act required. And it appears the "RULE" will determine what bikes are legal with a god-list. From the NZTA website:

Ok, if you want to get technical, you are correct, it is covered by the "Land Transport (Driver Licensing) Amendment Rule 2011 (SR 2011/306)", specificall section 6(3). Interesting enough though, the wording that has been adopted is different to the draft proposal I read:


approved motorcycle means the make and model of any motorcycle that—
“(a) has an engine capacity of 250 cc or less, unless the Agency has prohibited the use of that make and model of motorcycle by notice published on the Agency's Internet site; or
“(b) has an engine capacity of more than 250 cc but not more than 660 cc and a power-to-weight ratio of not more than 150 kilowatts per tonne and is approved for use by the Agency by notice published on the Agency's Internet site

So it doesn't specify LAMs, but in effect does, by saying that if it is over 250cc it must be on the approved list on the web site. It's the first time I have seen legislation make mention of a list on a web site.

It also seems the new wording has now opened up the use of motorcycles that don't have an engine capacity, such as electric motorcycles, to learners.

I think the modification of putting LAMS on the rego label will now make the enforcement of this aspect of the rule now possible.

[GrayWolf]

But I bet they sell though...all those guys who bought a Honda because there wasn't a Harley suitable for their licence catagory will now be able to side-step gayness and go 'straight' to a Harley!:lol:

So from reading this, honda riders are 'gay.
HD,s have a lot of assholes riding them.........

Guess you're right, the average honda/HD rider could well be fully interchangable then. :innocent:

[caspernz]

So from reading this, honda riders are 'gay.
HD,s have a lot of assholes riding them.........

Guess you're right, the average honda/HD rider could well be fully interchangable then. :innocent:

So tell me what the dilemma is called when I've got a Suzuki and I'm quite taken by the new HD Road King? The colour stays the same though...black of course. Or if I wanna keep the Suzuki for commuting and get the HD Road King for longer rides? Is that affliction difficult to pronounce?

[jrandom]

So tell me what the dilemma is called when I've got a Suzuki and I'm quite taken by the new HD Road King?

It's called the "Which Harley Dealer Will Trade In a Teapot" dilemma.

[caspernz]

It's called the "Which Harley Dealer Will Trade In a Teapot" dilemma.

Seeing as the teapot came from Welly MC, who do Suzuki and HD, should I choose the trade-in approach, no worries....it's only money we lose on the trade-in....not a limb:msn-wink:

[scracha]

Hmm, a tad uber-sensitive....not a little homophobic are you?:scratch:


If your mouth is purty you may find out :Police:

[tigertim20]

If your mouth is purty you may find out :Police:
careful mate, scummy is likely to get naked and chase ya.
he does that to blokes apparently:laugh:

[GrayWolf]

So tell me what the dilemma is called when I've got a Suzuki and I'm quite taken by the new HD Road King? The colour stays the same though...black of course. Or if I wanna keep the Suzuki for commuting and get the HD Road King for longer rides? Is that affliction difficult to pronounce?

think it's called 'Confusion'... easily fixed though...
to blend the love of the Suzuki and the love of the big twin tourer..... By a C109... both needs met in one bike :laugh:

[StoneY]

think it's called 'Confusion'... easily fixed though...
to blend the love of the Suzuki and the love of the big twin Lazyboy recliner..... By a C109... both needs met in one bike :laugh:

There ... fixed it for you.
:yes: