Flat battery?

[mattian]

like a dumb-arse I let my battery go flat because I forgot to swtich of the ignition (we'll call it a middle aged moment)
Just wondering, is it possible to roll start the bike? When we were kids and we had this problem we just used to roll it down the road in gear, let the clutch out and she would start like that.
Not being very clever about how these things work would just like to know if its gonna do the trick?
Suzuki 650 Gladius.

[Madness]

Should be fine. Be thankful it's a "middleweight"

[mattian]

cheers mate. heavy enough though, if it doesnt work to be stuck at the end of the driveway

[Madness]

Key on, 2nd gear, clutch in. Mind your footing - it's bloody wet out there!

[slofox]

like a dumb-arse I let my battery go flat because I forgot to swtich of the ignition (we'll call it a middle aged moment)
Just wondering, is it possible to roll start the bike? When we were kids and we had this problem we just used to roll it down the road in gear, let the clutch out and she would start like that.
Not being very clever about how these things work would just like to know if its gonna do the trick?
Suzuki 650 Gladius.

I did that to my SV by leaving the parking lights on. I could NOT bump start it because there was not enough juice to work the fuel injection system. Fortunately I had a battery charger to hand. Took a few hours but.

[mattian]

thanks guys. Will try both. if the other doesnt work

[mattian]

so ive been looking at some re-charging kits. The one I have my eye on says that it charges at the rate of 2500 mAmps an hour. What are mAmps? is that 2.5 Amps?
My handbook says that the battery should not be charged more than 5 amps per hour.

http://www.supercheapauto.co.nz/online-store/products/Best-Buy-Battery-Charger-2500mA-12V.aspx?pid=219509#Description

[sleemanj]

so ive been looking at some re-charging kits. The one I have my eye on says that it charges at the rate of 2500 mAmps an hour. What are mAmps? is that 2.5 Amps?
My handbook says that the battery should not be charged more than 5 amps per hour.

http://www.supercheapauto.co.nz/online-store/products/Best-Buy-Battery-Charger-2500mA-12V.aspx?pid=219509#Description

milli = thousandths, 2500 thousandths of an amp = 2.5 amps

Any modern consumer charger will be fine assuming you have a plain old lead-acid battery.

The warehouse have the same, cheaper.
http://www.thewarehouse.co.nz/red/catalog/product/Arlec-Compact-2500-Automotive-Battery-Charger-Model-BC581?SKU=456174

[mattian]

Aha ! Thankyou Mr. Sleemanj

[bsasuper]

Its best to charge motorcycle batterys at ONE amp, takes a bit longer though.

[neels]

Its best to charge motorcycle batterys at ONE amp, takes a bit longer though.
Pretty much on the money, as a general rule lead acid batteries should be charged at 1/10 of their Ah rating, most bike batteries would be somewhere around 10Ah

[dangerous]

so ive been looking at some re-charging kits. The one I have my eye on says that it charges at the rate of 2500 mAmps an hour. What are mAmps? is that 2.5 Amps?
My handbook says that the battery should not be charged more than 5 amps per hour.

http://www.supercheapauto.co.nz/online-store/products/Best-Buy-Battery-Charger-2500mA-12V.aspx?pid=219509#Description

to be honest IMO... no, ok for ya car but I would reconmend a trickle feed maintainer/charger cost a bit more but then price a decent battary up, a maintainer can be left on whenever the bikes not being used, great for long periods of non riding.

push starting, hmmm jap stuff aint so bad but you do need to watch for power serges that can fry the ECU, same goes for jump starting.

Neels... is a lead acid what you would call the dry cell come jell battarys of today?

[DEATH_INC.]

Be careful with the zookie, I jump started My old gixxer, and it couldn't cope with the dead flat battery and tried to melt the reg/rec and didn't put any charge into the battery.

[p.dath]

Key on, 2nd gear, clutch in. Mind your footing - it's bloody wet out there!

+1. That's how to bump start.

[mattian]

+1. That's how to bump start.

ok so I've disconnected the negative terminal but these pricks that installed my new battery have tightened the screw on the positive terminal so tight its not budging ! to the point where i've almost burred the head of the screw trying to undo it. :mad:

Just wondering. Is it ok to try and charge the battery with the positive terminal still connected?

Update : Dont panic !!!!! I got it.

[neels]

One terminal off is fine.

[shafty]

ok so I've disconnected the negative terminal but these pricks that installed my new battery have tightened the screw on the positive terminal so tight its not budging ! to the point where i've almost burred the head of the screw trying to undo it. :mad:

Just wondering. Is it ok to try and charge the battery with the positive terminal still connected?


Same happened on my Wifes Honda Shadow - a tickle with an impact driver worked. ( You'd get new screws with a new battery btw)

Might be old fashioned but a dab of vaseline on the terminals when finished is a good idea. Keep us posted. :eek:

[mattian]

Thanks fellas. I finally got it off. with one fatigued forearm and one burst blood vessel later.:niceone:

[p.dath]

ok so I've disconnected the negative terminal but these pricks that installed my new battery have tightened the screw on the positive terminal so tight its not budging ! to the point where i've almost burred the head of the screw trying to undo it. :mad:


You can use a penetrating lubricant, like CRC or WD40 to loosen it.

You can charge it with one terminal disconnected ok.

[actungbaby]

[QUOTE=mattian;1130226820]ok so I've disconnected the negative terminal but these pricks that installed my new battery have tightened the screw on the positive terminal so tight its not budging ! to the point where i've almost burred the head of the screw trying to undo it. :mad:
to anyway gezz i use impact driver for this very reason just tap should budge it
The old jap engine cases used philips bolts what a pain well erly honda singles did
Just wondering. Is it ok to try and charge the battery with the positive terminal still connected?
why whould you want just undo it oh yeah the bolt well take out the main fuse if theres on the main red power cable out
Other wise spray little crc screw cant be that bad how hell can torque a philips screw bolt oh yeah shold be nut
on the other side udo that way holding screw head in the other end

[dangerous]

Neels... is a lead acid what you would call the dry cell come jell battarys of today?well?




You can charge it with one terminal disconnected ok.even if its the positive terminal conected? I would have thought the current would still flow through the wiring system? just cos the battary is de earthed dosnt mean the bike isnt?

[sleemanj]

well?

A lead-acid battery usually refers to a wet cell battery, as in, liquid acid.

Technically a gell, or dry (eg AGM) is still effectively lead and acid, just not liquid acid any more.


even if its the positive terminal conected? I would have thought the current would still flow through the wiring system? just cos the battary is de earthed dosnt mean the bike isnt?

There is no circuit with one end disconnected. An electrical system requires a circuit, from positive, through stuff, to negative. Since the negative (or positive, or both) of the bike is not connected to the charger, there is no circuit and no flow of current.

[mattian]

Thank-you all for your input. Currently charging along quite nicely. Must nearly be done because its been 6 hours now and the light hasnt come on yet, to indicate that its fully charged. Its says to expect 5 to 10 hours of charging time.

[dangerous]

A lead-acid battery usually refers to a wet cell battery, as in, liquid acid.

Technically a gell, or dry (eg AGM) is still effectively lead and acid, just not liquid acid any more.
which is what I thought... just that a LCB was mentioned in page 1 and I was thinking havnt seen one of them in a newish bike for yonks... so does the 1-10ah charge thinga me still apply?

[sleemanj]

so does the 1-10ah charge thinga me still apply?

I'm probably not the best person to be asked that question, I'm so lazy that I don't bother disconnecting either terminal for a charge and use whatever charger I can find at the time (currently a red shed one which I've managed to hang onto for a while now without one of the siblings wandering off with it...)

But in an ideal world, yeah probably 10% would get you the best charge - but in the real world more than that is fine as long as you don't go so very overboard that you are cooking your battery.

Lead acid chemistry batteries are pretty tolerant of abuse, which is good for lazy bastards like me.

[Edbear]

I'm probably not the best person to be asked that question, I'm so lazy that I don't bother disconnecting either terminal for a charge and use whatever charger I can find at the time (currently a red shed one which I've managed to hang onto for a while now without one of the siblings wandering off with it...)

But in an ideal world, yeah probably 10% would get you the best charge - but in the real world more than that is fine as long as you don't go so very overboard that you are cooking your battery.

Lead acid chemistry batteries are pretty tolerant of abuse, which is good for lazy bastards like me.

In an ideal world, every bike would be running a Shorai battery...:msn-wink:

[mattian]

hey guys just another question. Will the battery re-charge fully while riding it?

Its been 10 hours now and, although the green light hasnt come on to indicate that the battery is fully charged, the battery is making that bubbling/fizzing noise.
I figure that if the battery is charged up enough to get the bike going again will it recharge fully if I just put it in and ride it for a while?

Update : put it in after 10 hours. lights lit up but wouldnt turn over. Put it back onto charge. Im guessing i have to wait another few hours.

[Ocean1]

hey guys just another question. Will the battery re-charge fully while riding it?

Its been 10 hours now and, although the green light hasnt come on to indicate that the battery is fully charged, the battery is making that bubbling/fizzing noise.
I figure that if the battery is charged up enough to get the bike going again will it recharge fully if I just put it in and ride it for a while?

No. The bike's designed to maintain the battery, not charge it.

Every bike's different, some can pull a battery up from lower than others but I'd leave it until the charger tells you it's finished mate.

[p.dath]

even if its the positive terminal conected? I would have thought the current would still flow through the wiring system? just cos the battary is de earthed dosnt mean the bike isnt?

"Power" only flows where there is a difference in potential.

If only the positive terminal is connected to the bike, then potential difference between the positive battery terminal and the bike is zero - no current will flow.

If you attach a charger to the battery the potential difference between the bike and the battery terminal is still zero.

You can verify the potential difference is zero by measuring the voltage between the only remaining connected battery terminal (positive in this case) and the rest of the bike.

[mattian]

No. The bike's designed to maintain the battery, not charge it.

Every bike's different, some can pull a battery up from lower than others but I'd leave it until the charger tells you it's finished mate.

Thanks for that. Yep ive put the battery back on to charge. Was just worried about over charging it. It is a cheap warehouse job recharge kit.

[paturoa]

Gladarse bump start with a totally flat battery? No, the ECU, fuel injection and fuel pump need some power for both fuel and spark. An "almost" flat FI zook can be bump / push started, but no for totally flat. "Almost" can vary a lot, but if the fuel pump does a normal cycle and the dash look normal then you have a 50/50 chance.

For charging, you dont have to disconnect the battery leads for a propper bike charger. There are several around. I have an Optimate.

When a lead acid bat is run dead flat they are never as good ever again. Most good batteries can survive a few discharge / charge cycles without too much of a reduction. However some don't survive one. Its a result of a thing called sulphation (google it)

If you can start it, the bike will charge it if your riding it.

Remember any lead acid bat that has been flattened will nver be the same again.

[sleemanj]

Update : put it in after 10 hours. lights lit up but wouldnt turn over. Put it back onto charge. Im guessing i have to wait another few hours.

What charger are you using?

10 hours should be piles to get enough in to turn it over even with a small capacity charger. If it's not even turning over... I'd say you have either a bigger issue, or a REALLY dead battery.

If you have a multimeter, run it across the terminals (in DC mode, to measure the voltage) and see what it says for a start.

Edit to add: I know it sounds stupid, but check that it's in neutral and your kill switch isn't active, you wouldn't be the first person in the world to miss that.

[mattian]

What charger are you using?

10 hours should be piles to get enough in to turn it over even with a small capacity charger. If it's not even turning over... I'd say you have either a bigger issue, or a REALLY dead battery.

If you have a multimeter, run it across the terminals (in DC mode, to measure the voltage) and see what it says for a start.

Edit to add: I know it sounds stupid, but check that it's in neutral and your kill switch isn't active, you wouldn't be the first person in the world to miss that.

Im using this charger http://www.thewarehouse.co.nz/red/catalog/product/Arlec-Compact-2500-Automotive-Battery-Charger-Model-BC581?SKU=456174
I dont have a multimeter. The handbook says 12-15 hours of charging. Bear in mind that my battery was dead flat.... not even a flicker.
so, im just going to let it run its course.

[p.dath]

It is starting to sound to me like your battery needs to be replaced. How old is it?

[mattian]

My battery is brand new bro. Got it a few weeks ago.
ok. its not working... I dunno what the fucks going on. Im going to go buy a new battery in the morning.

[p.dath]

My battery is brand new bro. Got it a few weeks ago.
ok. its not working... I dunno what the fucks going on. Im going to go buy a new battery in the morning.

You may have a dud. Sounds like it is not holding a charge.

I'd take it back and get them to load test it.

[dangerous]

My battery is brand new bro. Got it a few weeks ago.
ok. its not working... I dunno what the fucks going on. Im going to go buy a new battery in the morning.hang on... why is it brand new? the bikes only 2yrs old, the origional should be good for a min of 5 good years, and I doubt very much its a wet lead acid, if thats what you replaced it with then I reconmend you get the correct battary.



Thanks for that. Yep ive put the battery back on to charge. Was just worried about over charging it. It is a cheap warehouse job recharge kit.Well as always, ya get what ya pay for.


"Power" only flows where there is a difference in potential.
If only the positive terminal is connected to the bike, then potential difference between the positive battery terminal and the bike is zero - no current will flow.
If you attach a charger to the battery the potential difference between the bike and the battery terminal is still zero.
You can verify the potential difference is zero by measuring the voltage between the only remaining connected battery terminal (positive in this case) and the rest of the bike.but some reckon its safer to jump start an engine with the lead conected to the pos but the neg conected to the engine (talking car here) on the running vehicle?

[mattian]

Yep. I had a new battery put in after I had the regulator replaced under the suzuki regulator replacement programme. I suspected for a long time that the original battery wasnt charging properly.
anyway.... I've stuffed it up big time. Im off to get a new battery.

[p.dath]

but some reckon its safer to jump start an engine with the lead conected to the pos but the neg conected to the engine (talking car here) on the running vehicle?

That's a different problem you are trying to solve.

It's not clear to me why this is done.

When lead acid batteries charge they produce hydrogen and oxygen, and some people talk about the risk of causing a battery explosion by causing a spark when you attach jumper leads directly to the battery terminals. I find this idea a little weak myself. When was the last time you heard of someone's car exploding as they attached jumper leads? A lot of batteries are sealed these days anyway. But the last thing you want is a battery explosion spewing acid everywhere as your leaning over it attached a jumper lead ... so I'll be attaching the earth lead to the chassis just in case. :)

[sleemanj]

Yep. I had a new battery put in after I had the regulator replaced under the suzuki regulator replacement programme. I suspected for a long time that the original battery wasnt charging properly.
anyway.... I've stuffed it up big time. Im off to get a new battery.

When you get the bike running, I strongly suggest getting a multimeter and putting it on your battery terminals (DC mode) with the bike running. You should see 14.something volts, much more than that and your regulator is killing batteries, much less than that and it's not doing jack. I wouldn't be surprised if your replacement regulator is busted too, probably on the high side.

[mattian]

Thanks very much folks.
Regulators fine. Charging normally. It was my own charging of my flat battery that killed it. Cheap warehouse rubbish !
Im going to get a proper multi-meter. Put in a brand new battery this morning $95 later. :(
Now someones going to come on here and tell me where I could have got it cheaper. It was an emergency and I didnt have time to shop around.
Oh well. At least I know where I went wrong. Thoroughly dissapointed with myself but resolve not to let this happen again.:lol:

cheers !

[Edbear]

Thanks very much folks.
Regulators fine. Charging normally. It was my own charging of my flat battery that killed it. Cheap warehouse rubbish !
Im going to get a proper multi-meter. Put in a brand new battery this morning $95 later. :(
Now someones going to come on here and tell me where I could have got it cheaper. It was an emergency and I didnt have time to shop around.
Oh well. At least I know where I went wrong. Thoroughly dissapointed with myself but resolve not to let this happen again.:lol:

cheers !

I couldn't do one cheaper of course but I do sell the best in the world... :cool:

[sleemanj]

Thanks very much folks.
Regulators fine. Charging normally. It was my own charging of my flat battery that killed it. Cheap warehouse rubbish !

FWIW, I have used that (Arlec) cheap warehouse rubbish and similar to it for some years, on much smaller batteries than is likely in your bike.

That normally working cheap warehouse rubbish would not have destroyed your (typical) battery, of course it could have been faulty cheap warehouse rubbish.

$95 sounds about right for a battery of the size I expect you required, you wouldn't get it much cheaper.

[FJRider]

That's a different problem you are trying to solve.

It's not clear to me why this is done.

When lead acid batteries charge they produce hydrogen and oxygen, and some people talk about the risk of causing a battery explosion by causing a spark when you attach jumper leads directly to the battery terminals. I find this idea a little weak myself. When was the last time you heard of someone's car exploding as they attached jumper leads? A lot of batteries are sealed these days anyway. But the last thing you want is a battery explosion spewing acid everywhere as your leaning over it attached a jumper lead ... so I'll be attaching the earth lead to the chassis just in case. :)

Connecting the Neg (earth) to the engine lowers the chance of spark (moves the earth and possible spark [on earthing] away from the battery) ... so BOTH practices are related. Yes some batterys did explode whilst jump starting ... better quality batterys and cars (charging systems) have reduced this problem. However ... it may still happen in some circumstances/conditions. Ignore the advice at your peril.

[FJRider]

My battery is brand new bro. Got it a few weeks ago.
ok. its not working... I dunno what the fucks going on. Im going to go buy a new battery in the morning.

Take it back to where you bought it. There should be a warranty ... or as stated ... an issue with the battery when you bought it.

[dangerous]

Thanks very much folks.
Regulators fine. Charging normally. It was my own charging of my flat battery that killed it. Cheap warehouse rubbish !
Im going to get a proper multi-meter. Put in a brand new battery this morning $95 later. :(
Now someones going to come on here and tell me where I could have got it cheaper. It was an emergency and I didnt have time to shop around.
Oh well. At least I know where I went wrong. Thoroughly dissapointed with myself but resolve not to let this happen again.:lol:

cheers !$95 for a battery is cheap, my last one cost near to $300, get what ya pay for... in your case Id settle for none less than a gel, why by several cheap batterys over ya bikes life when one will do.
Forget the muilti meter, like I already said a battary maintainer will do the job of a muiltie meter, a charger, and it will drain the batt at the correct rate and re trickle it... ok it will cost you $130ish but, will save in the long run. I use a Oxford. just my opion

[p.dath]

Take it back to where you bought it. There should be a warranty ... or as stated ... an issue with the battery when you bought it.

+1. I think you just have a dud battery.

[Henk]

+1. I think you just have a dud battery.

Sorry disagree. The original problem was that he ran the battery to dead flat by leaving the ignition on, what probably killed it for all time is that he then hooked up a cheap nasty battery charger more than likely intended for cars.
Lead acid batteries, gel or traditional like to be charged with constant current at 10% of their rated AH capacity to a level (that I can't remember because it is years since I was working in the field) and then switched over to a constant voltage setup until fully charged and then switched to a maintenance charge. A charger intended for a car is likely to run way more than that 10% initially as the internal resistance of a dead flat battery can do odd things. May start really high and then go really low leading to the thing effectively getting boiled.

[neels]

Sorry disagree. The original problem was that he ran the battery to dead flat by leaving the ignition on, what probably killed it for all time is that he then hooked up a cheap nasty battery charger more than likely intended for cars.
Lead acid batteries, gel or traditional like to be charged with constant current at 10% of their rated AH capacity to a level (that I can't remember because it is years since I was working in the field) and then switched over to a constant voltage setup until fully charged and then switched to a maintenance charge. A charger intended for a car is likely to run way more than that 10% initially as the internal resistance of a dead flat battery can do odd things. May start really high and then go really low leading to the thing effectively getting boiled.
Agreed.

Charging from flat should look something like this (quick google search), the lower the terminal voltage the longer the constant current charge should be.

254539

On our gear at work charging batteries from flat with a proper charger we've had SLA batteries die and get hot enough to melt their cases together.