New Zealand Superbikes and Grand Prix

[Bren_chch]

Come on down and support our local event of Superbike racing and family fun, meet our top national and international riders, watch our local boys and girls carve up there north island competitors.

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[Gremlin]

Here it is embedded

edit.... job done

I can't paste the code, otherwise it embeds, but quote my post, grab the code, then chuck it in yours

[SWERVE]

Looking forward to some very close battles...right across the classes. Particually the 600,s which is gonna be INTENSE.
OS Racing wishes ALL competitors the very best for the championship.

[Shaun]

Very best of luck to all involved the nats for 2012

[Drew]

Very best of luck to all involved the nats for 2012I thought you were gonna be riding at Ruapuna Shaun?

[RDjase]

Looking forward to some very close battles...right across the classes. Particually the 600,s which is gonna be INTENSE.
OS Racing wishes ALL competitors the very best for the championship.

Close battles in Prolite too if the Seth/Sam racing continues like it was at manfeild:niceone:

See you in a couple of days, van is packed on the ferry early thursday

[steveyb]

Good effort, but I will be a wanker.
What is with "National Points Round 1"???????

That has no meaning to anyone.

Should read "New Zealand Superbike Championships Round 1 and New Zealand Grand Prix".

Soapbox put away now......

[SWERVE]

OS Racing is in garage number 12.
Look for the orange & black bunting......... come and say Hi, and give both the young riders your support.
SETH DEVEREUX aged 20 - Prolite 250 / Kawasaki ninja - RS125gp
ANTS SINGER aged 17 - ProTwin / Suzuki SV650

And prospective young champs........... The 2011 Kawasaki 250 that Seth is riding will be available to lease next season with mechanical support from OS Racing and mentoring from Seth.
Details of this will be finalised after the Superbike champs.

[Kickaha]

Good effort, but I will be a wanker.
What is with "National Points Round 1"???????

That has no meaning to anyone.

.

I'm wouldn't be so sure about that, everyone I know calls it the "Nationals"

[Deano]

Come on down and support our local event of Superbike racing and family fun, meet our top national and international riders, watch our local boys and girls carve up there north island competitors.


Forget the carving knife, I'm bringing a cleaver !:bleh:

[jellywrestler]

Good effort, but I will be a wanker.

Wanker is a politically incorrect term nowadays Steve, you're what's now known as an 'Owner Operator'

[steveyb]

Wanker is a politically incorrect term nowadays Steve, you're what's now known as an 'Owner Operator'

1) One needs to be the owner. Not sure that is the case here.

2) One needs to have the ability or the permission to operate the equipment. Not sure that is the case here.

:(

[wharfy]

can't b there but keeping and eye on livestreaming and mylaps. See on mylaps Avalon Biddle has pole for 600's 1:25 ??? Is that a mistake Stroudy and co. on 1000's are doing 1:30's ??

edit: just looked at Avalon's individual lap times - It's obviously a mistake.

[Bren_chch]

can't b there but keeping and eye on livestreaming and mylaps. See on mylaps Avalon Biddle has pole for 600's 1:25 ??? Is that a mistake Stroudy and co. on 1000's are doing 1:30's ??

edit: just looked at Avalon's individual lap times - It's obviously a mistake.

At a guess avo skipped the dipper. :) she still clocked up a great time though!!

[sil3nt]

That video is fkn ace!

[wharfy]

Stroud crashes for first time since 2006 ! (live timing showed he'd done 3 laps) race red flagged on lap 5 - Big discussion about whether Stroud could re-start or not.. He got to re-start and rode like a demon to take the win - Most excellent racing !
Final results may be disputed (actually make that will be disputed for years to come - at least on Kiwibiker :) )
What a race though !!! Wish I could have been there, but Livetiming to the rescue !!!

Just noticed in my excitement I miss-spelled CONTROVERSY in the title !! - But I'm sure I will be excused - I was bloody great racing - So did Stroudy set a new lap record in the first part of race 2 ?

[Bikemad]

yeah i missed strouds crash but saw the restart................stroud off the back to third round the outside on turn 1...........great race..........cheers livetiming

[Tony.OK]

Stroud crashes for first time since 2006 ! (live timing showed he'd done 3 laps) race red flagged on lap 5 - Big discussion about whether Stroud could re-start or not.. He got to re-start and rode like a demon to take the win - Most excellent racing !
Final results may be disputed (actually make that will be disputed for years to come - at least on Kiwibiker :) )
What a race though !!! Wish I could have been there, but Livetiming to the rescue !!!

+1 to livetiming and the whole gang. Bloody great commentating at times and top effort to Grant manning the camera.......thoroughly enjoyed it! :niceone:

Someone lend me a bike..............I wanna play too :facepalm:

[Drew]

Is there anything to dispute? The rules are there for everyone.

[Bykmad]

Is there anything to dispute? The rules are there for everyone.


Try reading rule 6.13.B.c in GCR's. It is quite clear and yes, the rules are there for everyone.

[prettybillie]

Stroud hasn't been awared points for the restart.

[Drew]

Try reading rule 6.13.B.c in GCR's. It is quite clear and yes, the rules are there for everyone.Since he shouldn't have restarted at all, how is that relevant?

[Kiwi Graham]

Just got back from a spin round the Pacific Ocean......................never again!

Rule 6.13.B.c states 65% has to be completed, how many did he do before the 'rare occurrence'?
65% of 15 is 5.25 ............. I fink!

[Tony.OK]

Just got back from a spin round the Pacific Ocean......................never again!

Rule 6.13.B.c states 65% has to be completed, how many did he do before the 'rare occurrence'?
65% of 15 is 5.25 ............. I fink!

He did 3 of 5 before red flag, thats 60% so not enough.

Mylaps shows him DQ for restart.

[Drew]

Just got back from a spin round the Pacific Ocean......................never again!

Rule 6.13.B.c states 65% has to be completed, how many did he do before the 'rare occurrence'?
65% of 15 is 5.25 ............. I fink!He had completed 3 of the 5 laps before the red flag. That is 60%

[Kiwi Graham]

He did 3 of 5 before red flag, thats 60% so not enough.

Mylaps shows him DQ for restart.


He had completed 3 of the 5 laps before the red flag. That is 60%

How many had the leader done at the red flag?

[Drew]

How many had the leader done at the red flag?5 ten charachters

[Bykmad]

Since he shouldn't have restarted at all, how is that relevant?

It is relevant because as he was ineligible to start in the re start he could be protested by a competitor or excluded by the stewards after the race.

[Kiwi Graham]

Rule 6.13.B.c states

Only those riders who have accomplished at least 65% of the laps realised by the first rider of the preceding part will be authorised to restart.

If the leader had completed 5 laps and the red flag came out, Andrew would have needed to complete 3 or 3.25 to be precise to be eligible to restart.

[lukemillar]

+1 to livetiming and the whole gang. Bloody great commentating at times and top effort to Grant manning the camera.......thoroughly enjoyed it! :niceone:

Also like to add that all the racing is available to watch after the event here:

http://www.livetiming.co.nz/Ctas%20Live%20Streaming%20-%20Video%20Coverage.html

$2 a race or the whole event for $20. Bloody bargain if you ask me! Grant has done a superb job of the video and audio and it is well worth the money. :niceone:

[Tony.OK]

Rule 6.13.B.c states

Only those riders who have accomplished at least 65% of the laps realised by the first rider of the preceding part will be authorised to restart.

If the leader had completed 5 laps and the red flag came out, Andrew would have needed to complete 3 or 3.25 to be precise to be eligible to restart.

Yup, and since laps in NZ aren't measured in 1/4's or sectors then you'd assume it would stand at 3 laps equalling 60%.

But that is for Andrew & co to dispute with MNZ stewards really.

Certainly makes for a bloody interesting start to the series, plenty more great racing to come I'm picking :msn-wink:

[k14]

Also like to add that all the racing is available to watch after the event here:

http://www.livetiming.co.nz/Ctas%20Live%20Streaming%20-%20Video%20Coverage.html

$2 a race or the whole event for $20. Bloody bargain if you ask me! Grant has done a superb job of the video and audio and it is well worth the money. :niceone:
Yeah the live timing, video and audio is excellent. Top notch work by all involved, great to sit on my couch and be able to keep up with the action.

[scott411]

mylaps shows him being dq'd from race 16b (the restart)

[Rcktfsh]

Try reading rule 6.13.B.c in GCR's. It is quite clear and yes, the rules are there for everyone.


He did 3 of 5 before red flag, thats 60% so not enough.

Mylaps shows him DQ for restart.


He had completed 3 of the 5 laps before the red flag. That is 60%

Mylaps show the leaders completing 5 laps with Sellars/holmes having completed 4 laps. 6.13.B.a states the 1st part results are to be a lap before the red flag is shown so 4 laps. part 2 of the race is to be a duration to make up the original length 6.13.B.b, by my calculation this means the restart should have been 11 not 10 laps? 6.13.B.d requires restarting riders to have completed 65% of the leaders 1st part laps ie 65% of 4 laps not 5.

[Kiwi Graham]

Sounds like the leader had completed 5 and was on his sixth requiring Andrew to have completed 3.9 or 4 laps to be eligible to restart.

It wouldn't be NZ racing without a bit of heat now would it. roll on next weekend.

I hope all can get the repairs done that needed, I heard Chop has done a big end, I hope Jarred is up for lending Dan/Brian his bike again and Rees can get his S1 back together. Jaden decked a stator on the curbing and low sided and is now all good to go again and even younger Aaron had an off but is all good to go again in the 250's and is raising a few eyebrows.

Dave Cole is back in his shed tinkering with the motor from my mighty R1 by now I hope :msn-wink:

KG

[Rcktfsh]

leaders had completed 5 laps from what i can work out but the results from leg 1 are set a lap proir, hence the 65% requirement should be at that point.

[dean boy]

Come on down and support our local event of Superbike racing and family fun, meet our top national and international riders, watch our local boys and girls carve up there north island competitors.

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Big thanks to all the riders, officials, marshals and helpers.

apologies to jimmy and red, triple R team for the cock up

Dean James

[wharfy]

Mylaps show the leaders completing 5 laps with Sellars/holmes having completed 4 laps. 6.13.B.a states the 1st part results are to be a lap before the red flag is shown so 4 laps. part 2 of the race is to be a duration to make up the original length 6.13.B.b, by my calculation this means the restart should have been 11 not 10 laps? 6.13.B.d requires restarting riders to have completed 65% of the leaders 1st part laps ie 65% of 4 laps not 5.

Sounds like Stroudy has a case then, I hope he is pushing this interpretation !
Reminds me of the "America's Cup" :)

[jasonu]

If it was a 'tail end charlie' and not Andrew bloody Stroud would this discussion even be happening???

[k14]

If it was a 'tail end charlie' and not Andrew bloody Stroud would this discussion even be happening???
Nope.

Apparently the start of the second half of the race was held up so Stroud could get his bike repaired. Some of the other guys bikes started overheating on the dummy grid. Typical NZ racing, double standards when someone "important" needs the rules bent.

[Edbear]

If it was a 'tail end charlie' and not Andrew bloody Stroud would this discussion even be happening???

When you are one of the best at what you do and well known and liked, it is a natural thing to be given consideration for the good of the sport overall. It's a case where the spirit of the rules rather than the strict application of them may best serve the interests of the sport. I do agree that it should be fair for all and if it was a tail-end-charlie as you say, such a one should be judged accordingly.

Racing is not that popular with the general public especially in the current economic climate and the high profile accidents of motorcycling in general so I do feel TPTB should be flexible and try to promote a good support for it where possible. Maybe I'm a softie who wants everyone to do well and enjoy themselves so may be less inclined to apply the "letter of the law" than is proper.

[k14]

When you are one of the best at what you do and well known and liked, it is a natural thing to be given consideration for the good of the sport overall. It's a case where the spirit of the rules rather than the strict application of them may best serve the interests of the sport. I do agree that it should be fair for all and if it was a tail-end-charlie as you say, such a one should be judged accordingly.

Racing is not that popular with the general public especially in the current economic climate and the high profile accidents of motorcycling in general so I do feel TPTB should be flexible and try to promote a good support for it where possible. Maybe I'm a softie who wants everyone to do well and enjoy themselves so may be less inclined to apply the "letter of the law" than is proper.
No it's not. The rules are the rules. He shouldn't have crashed in the first place and this wouldn't have happened. No one should get special treatment or rules bent for them, whether they are Stroud or Rossi.

[Edbear]

No it's not. The rules are the rules. He shouldn't have crashed in the first place and this wouldn't have happened. No one should get special treatment or rules bent for them, whether they are Stroud or Rossi.

Yeah I understand that. As for not crashing, even the best can and do crash, so the issue really is whether the rules were interpreted and applied correctly or they need re-wording to be clearer. All professional sports push the rules to the max and where they are not crystal clear is where the arguments begin.

[wharfy]

If it was a 'tail end charlie' and not Andrew bloody Stroud would this discussion even be happening???

Of course it would this is a "discussion" forum !! Oh and whats Stroud ever done to get the "bloody" tag (apart from winning 9 NZSBK titles) ?
How ever a "tail end charlie" would not have a possible 10th National title at stake. I believe the decision to let him race and work out the fine print of the rules latter was the correct one - one of the best races of the meeting.
All the riders with a shot at the title will be doing their utmost to acquire the points needed. Obviously Stroud's team will be trying to get the points from both parts of the last race and his competitors will be trying to block that. That's why they have rules and a protest procedure. Read Rckfsh post - seems like a legitimate interpretation of the rules to me.

[Mental Trousers]

At the time it was the right decision.

A. Stroud crashing is news in itself, but then having him back on the grid and going from last to first to take a win is a worth the publicity bonus. Now, if things go the way they should, a protest will have been lodged and when MNZ look at the rules and the decision they'll reverse it. Which means a crap load more publicity.

Also, it's not like any of the classes is overflowing with entrants. We need all of the bikes we can get on the grid as often as possible. If protests afterwards are upheld then that's fine as long as the correct decision is made in the end.

[Kiwi Graham]

Nope.

Apparently the start of the second half of the race was held up so Stroud could get his bike repaired. Some of the other guys bikes started overheating on the dummy grid. Typical NZ racing, double standards when someone "important" needs the rules bent.

I'm led to belive thie delay cost another someone an engine too :shit:

[Billy]

No one should get special treatment or rules bent for them, whether they are Stroud or Rossi.

Or unless theyre on a Hyosung in prolite,Then they get dispensation because the bikes too slow(Apparently),Pity someone forgot to tell me that seeing as Im on the roadrace commission and help make the rules,Dont remember seeing that one through my inbox,Must have gone straight to the Hyosung riders only.

[wharfy]

Nope.

Apparently the start of the second half of the race was held up so Stroud could get his bike repaired. Some of the other guys bikes started overheating on the dummy grid. Typical NZ racing, double standards when someone "important" needs the rules bent.

I was only watching via live-timing but the hold up appeared to be due to the officials discussing with Stroud whether or not he should be there at all. That would not have happened if they had already decided he could race and the were holding the grid up for him ?
If your bike is likely to get hot on the dummy grid shut it down. The superbikes are supposed to have their starters working

[White trash]

Nope.

Apparently the start of the second half of the race was held up so Stroud could get his bike repaired. Some of the other guys bikes started overheating on the dummy grid. Typical NZ racing, double standards when someone "important" needs the rules bent.


No it's not. The rules are the rules. He shouldn't have crashed in the first place and this wouldn't have happened. No one should get special treatment or rules bent for them, whether they are Stroud or Rossi.

Ooooooohhhhhh careful there Kirk. Four years ago when I questioned the sportsmanship regarding rule bending in benefit of "top teams" I got forever labelled a winger and a crybaby.

That being said, I don't think delaying the start of a race to allow a competitor time to catch up is actually breaking a rule is it?

[White trash]

Or unless theyre on a Hyosung in prolite,Then they get dispensation because the bikes too slow(Apparently),Pity someone forgot to tell me that seeing as Im on the roadrace commission and help make the rules,Dont remember seeing that one through my inbox,Must have gone straight to the Hyosung riders only.

Hey dude. The way the rules for Prolite are being enforced is awesome. It's what the sport needs to ensure total parity and it's a shame it's taken this long for a class to be properly policed.

However, my personal thoughts are that it's unprofessional for a board member to be slagging competitors on a public forum. I think that you guys are supposed to be above that. Not sure.

[White trash]

I'm led to belive thie delay cost another someone an engine too :shit:

Rubbish. They've all got temp gauges and should know how to read them. Turning the bike off and raising your hand would lead to an aborted start.

[Billy]

Hey dude. The way the rules for Prolite are being enforced is awesome. It's what the sport needs to ensure total parity and it's a shame it's taken this long for a class to be properly policed.

However, my personal thoughts are that it's unprofessional for a board member to be slagging competitors on a public forum. I think that you guys are supposed to be above that. Not sure.

Yip,Valid point Jimmy,However I am not a board member,Commission only and after youve informed the said competitors more than once over a 12 month period and they still turn up at round 1 of the Nationals with the same mods and plead ignorance it starts to wear a bit thin,I have also had dialogue with one rider today and have listened to his points,But the facts are the rules are there for everybody to read,Those that choose not to do so and then pretend they didnt know need to be outed,

Furthermore I dont think it was handled in the correct manner and I have let those involved know my position,If they choose to take it further then so be it,But Im sure you have read our post regarding getting this class off the ground last year and the lengths I had to go to and the funds I had to invest out of my own pocket because the distributors who are onboard full steam now didnt want to take the risk and I am not going to stand by and let it turn into the farce the old 250 proddy became,I know whos encouraging this behaviour and it doesnt sit well with me when other clubs let it go at club level and then leave it too us to tidy up come Nationals time.

Rant over,As you were.

[White trash]

Good points and some I hadn't considered.

The fact that some of these guys are flying in the face of the rules especially after being forewarned does smack a little of sheer arrogance.

[Drew]

Mylaps show the leaders completing 5 laps with Sellars/holmes having completed 4 laps. 6.13.B.a states the 1st part results are to be a lap before the red flag is shown so 4 laps. part 2 of the race is to be a duration to make up the original length 6.13.B.b, by my calculation this means the restart should have been 11 not 10 laps? 6.13.B.d requires restarting riders to have completed 65% of the leaders 1st part laps ie 65% of 4 laps not 5.The previous completed lap to the red flag being shown, I think you'll find. Bugden had well and truly crossed the line a fifth time (putting him on lap 6) when the red flag came out.

[Billy]

The previous completed lap to the red flag being shown, I think you'll find. Bugden had well and truly crossed the line a fifth time (putting him on lap 6) when the red flag came out.

Yerr,Its a bit of a dogs breakfast the old redflag rule,I brought it up with the commission chairman late last year and suggested it should be clarified as it appears there are 2 different rulings for when the race is called what stands as 65%,Glad I'm not down there to have to sort it out.Especially when Stroudy's involved,Hes not frightened to take it further if need be!!!

[Drew]

Yerr,Its a bit of a dogs breakfast the old redflag rule,I brought it up with the commission chairman late last year and suggested it should be clarified as it appears there are 2 different rulings for when the race is called what stands as 65%,Glad I'm not down there to have to sort it out.Especially when Stroudy's involved,Hes not frightened to take it further if need be!!!I can't find a rule regarding a red flag stoppage, that is not 100% clear on the number of laps and how they are counted.

[Tony.OK]

The previous completed lap to the red flag being shown, I think you'll find. Bugden had well and truly crossed the line a fifth time (putting him on lap 6) when the red flag came out.

Drew you should be a Steward.............your version seems the simplest to understand.

a. The race shall be considered to be more than one part. The race
positions at the end of the lap preceding the stopping of the race.

[Billy]

I can't find a rule regarding a red flag stoppage, that is not 100% clear on the number of laps and how they are counted.

Yea you are of course right,However when I asked about the 65% ruling on a redflag stoppage I was given a conflicting answer ie the redflag was counted back a lap from the leader but the 65% was not ??? Like I said,Glad I'm not there to sort it haha!

[Crasherfromwayback]

into the farce the old 250 proddy became,.

Whatchu talkin 'bout Willis?:sweatdrop

[jellywrestler]

can't b there but keeping and eye on livestreaming and mylaps. See on mylaps Avalon Biddle has pole for 600's 1:25 ??? Is that a mistake Stroudy and co. on 1000's are doing 1:30's ??

edit: just looked at Avalon's individual lap times - It's obviously a mistake.

avalon s gear lever broke so she went stright ahead at the end of the main straight and came back through pit lane over the timing trigger again as it extends through the pits... hence the 1.25 time

[Drew]

Drew you should be a Steward.............your version seems the simplest to understand.

a. The race shall be considered to be more than one part. The race
positions at the end of the lap preceding the stopping of the race.Nope, no way to my mind could that be argued to mean the last completed lap, then minus one more.

[1998gsxr]

top weekend again at ruapuna,weather came right and was just great stroud had an off and the guys there behind the seen would not let him on the trace,but in the end he came out "so he should of"and they still cant get it right begind the seens,nevermind apart from that top day out..:angry2:

[jellywrestler]

Nope.

Apparently the start of the second half of the race was held up so Stroud could get his bike repaired. Some of the other guys bikes started overheating on the dummy grid. Typical NZ racing, double standards when someone "important" needs the rules bent.

poppy cock to the first line
they went out on a warm up lap and Stroud was already fixed and in pit lane, they had a rule book out and were discussing the 65%, i shot up to the timing tower honed in on Strouds laps he had done three complete laps, went back down told them this and get him out there and work out the details later as it was holding up those out there. Jim Tuckerman then showed me that 3 of 5 is 60%
When Stroud came up to grid he went for his qualifying grid spot and that's when they decided to let the boys have another warm up lap.
Stroud then gridded at the rear.
I also talked to Moir's team (he'd gone down ) and said get back out there and argue about it later but i think it was clear he'd done less than Andrews questionable laps...
whatever happened Strouds first lap of the restart was 1.3 seconds quicker than anyone else on the track and Faaarking spectacular and while Stauffer knew he didn't need to cross the line first he didn't sit back and watch.

bring on Timaru i say

[Crasherfromwayback]

whatever happened Strouds first lap of the restart was 1.3 seconds quicker than anyone else on the track

I don't really think that matters a flying fuck if he shouldn't have been there mate.

[jellywrestler]

I don't really think that matters a flying fuck if he shouldn't have been there mate.

Nobody say a word about the 6 hundy out there either eh?

[Drew]

whatever happened Strouds first lap of the restart was 1.3 seconds quicker than anyone else on the track and Faaarking spectacularThat's not as impressive as you're making out if you think about it mate.

I have started off the back of an F3 grid and posted an out lap well over a second quicker than Glen Williams. Of course, I was in third gear doing well over 120kph when I broke the timing light, he was possibly doing 10kph.

What is impressive is Stroud being in third position on the track by turn one. I assume that means turn two (I am only working on what I'm told), which everyone calls turn one for some fuckin reason!

[Tony.OK]

bring on Timaru i say

For sure..........

And am hoping for some of those one liners from the microphone.

"happy as a sperm with egg on its face".................nearly spat my beer on the laptop hearing that! :2thumbsup

[Billy]

Whatchu talkin 'bout Willis?:sweatdrop

Nuffin!!! It wasn't me .

[Crasherfromwayback]

Nobody say a word about the 6 hundy out there either eh?

Just seems to me that Stroudy is all good for arguing things when it doesn't go his way...but was he supposed to be out there or not?

[Billy]

Nope, no way to my mind could that be argued to mean the last completed lap, then minus one more.

No I wasnt suggesting that you or I would,But because I was given different figures for the same event,A judge in a court of law may see it as confusing and make a different decision than us.

[Drew]

I don't really think that matters a flying fuck if he shouldn't have been there mate.Giving this some more thought, could not everyone protest the results of the race since it was run outside the rules?

[Crasherfromwayback]

Giving this some more thought, could not everyone protest the results of the race since it was run outside the rules?

Dunno mate. I've never protested or had a protest thrown at me the whole time I raced. Which admittedly wasn't for long.

[Drew]

Just seems to me that Stroudy is all good for arguing things when it doesn't go his way...but was he supposed to be out there or not?Hang on there bro, I haven't seen anywhere that he is arguing this one. It's just being argued by a bunch of people not involved.

[k14]

poppy cock to the first line
they went out on a warm up lap and Stroud was already fixed and in pit lane, they had a rule book out and were discussing the 65%, i shot up to the timing tower honed in on Strouds laps he had done three complete laps, went back down told them this and get him out there and work out the details later as it was holding up those out there. Jim Tuckerman then showed me that 3 of 5 is 60%
When Stroud came up to grid he went for his qualifying grid spot and that's when they decided to let the boys have another warm up lap.
Stroud then gridded at the rear.
I also talked to Moir's team (he'd gone down ) and said get back out there and argue about it later but i think it was clear he'd done less than Andrews questionable laps...
whatever happened Strouds first lap of the restart was 1.3 seconds quicker than anyone else on the track and Faaarking spectacular and while Stauffer knew he didn't need to cross the line first he didn't sit back and watch.

bring on Timaru i say
Yeah fair call, I stand corrected.

I'm undecided if sending him out was the right call, but it comes back to the same old story of rules being ambiguous and poorly written along with the officials not knowing them properly. Someone a few pages back said "apply them in the way they were intended - the spirit of the rules etc". Well IMO the spirit of the rules in this instance is to allow someone that is 1 or 2 laps down on the leader but still in the race to continue, no let someone that crashed multiple laps before the red flag to come back into the race, that is bs.

Crap like this one of the contributing factors towards my decision to give up road racing, too many inconsistent applications of rules by officials, ad-hoc changes to tried and true methods of doing things etc. This is just another example of it.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Hang on there bro, I haven't seen anywhere that he is arguing this one. It's just being argued by a bunch of people not involved.

Didn't say he was Drew. But as I said...when things don't go his way he's only too happy to. Was he supposed to be out there or not according to the rules?

[Kiwi Graham]

Was he supposed to be out there or not according to the rules?

Not.

however any racer seeing a shadow of doubt regarding the ruling, regardless of his or her level of talent would be happy to go out and argue about it later given the opportunity.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Not.

however any racer seeing a shadow of doubt regarding the ruling, regardless of his or her level of talent would be happy to go out and argue about it later given the opportunity.

More than likely. But if MNZ knew what the fuck it was doing, it wouldn't have happened if he was NOT supposed to be out there.

[gav]

So how many laps does a rider have to complete to do 65% of a 5 lap race, and clearly it was declared a 5 lap race, so the 15 lap seems to be irrelevant? If 3 laps isnt enough, surely it can't be 4 laps as that would be 80%? I think when Stroud crashed he wouldve covered 65% of the race, he mustve made that extra 5% by then?
Interesting today hearing the words of one of the marshalls and the discussions going over the radios. Yes they let him out because it was Andrew Stroud and yes they didnt want to black flag him either as they didnt want to upset the crowd.
And yes Rhys Holmes did the second half of the race on his 600, again against the rules.

[Drew]

More than likely. But if MNZ knew what the fuck it was doing, it wouldn't have happened if he was NOT supposed to be out there.

Fuck yeah. the rule isn't even worded wrong, it is missing a friggin comma.

B.
d. Only those riders who have accomplished at least 65% of the laps
realised by the first rider of the preceding part will be authorised to
restart. Machines may be repaired or replaced.

C. If two thirds of the race distance is completed:
a. This shall be declared a full race. The finishing order shall be at the end
of the lap preceding the stopping of the race. This last sentence should read... "The finishing order shall be at the end of the lap, preceding the stopping of the race".

[Crasherfromwayback]

. Yes they let him out because it was Andrew Stroud and yes they didnt want to black flag him either as they didnt want to upset the crowd.
And yes Rhys Holmes did the second half of the race on his 600, again against the rules.

That's a fucking joke too then.

I remember years ago at the Auckland Street circuit race, they told me they'd black flag me if I kept doing wheelies (on my KX500 FFS) down the front straight. The late Robert Holden was doing them all day, and so I told them it was fine if they wanted to blag flag me, as long as they did the same to Robert.

One rule for all I say.

[Drew]

So how many laps does a rider have to complete to do 65% of a 5 lap race, and clearly it was declared a 5 lap race, so the 15 lap seems to be irrelevant? If 3 laps isnt enough, surely it can't be 4 laps as that would be 80%? I think when Stroud crashed he wouldve covered 65% of the race, he mustve made that extra 5% by then?
Interesting today hearing the words of one of the marshalls and the discussions going over the radios. Yes they let him out because it was Andrew Stroud and yes they didnt want to black flag him either as they didnt want to upset the crowd.
And yes Rhys Holmes did the second half of the race on his 600, again against the rules.The race was stopped after five laps because of a crash, it was then restarted and run to the total number of laps it should have. Stroud had not however completed 65% of the laps that Bugden had completed when the red flag came out.

The rules are actually very clear about this I think, since the controversially worded rule actually only comes into play when a race has completed enough laps, to be declared and points awarded.

[gav]

So if the race was stopped and restarted why are points awarded for each half of the race then? By awarding points they have declared it a 5 lap race?

[k14]

So if the race was stopped and restarted why are points awarded for each half of the race then? By awarding points they have declared it a 5 lap race?
Thats the way it is supposed to be. If they do 3 laps or less its a full restart. If they do 4 or more then it is a 2 part race with half points for each part (even though it might be a bit lopsided 2 parts).

[Mental Trousers]

Just seems to me that Stroudy is all good for arguing things when it doesn't go his way...but was he supposed to be out there or not?

The facts aren't all that clear on this so it's not possible to say definitively at the time if Stroudy should've been out there or not. Therefore you have to err on the side of caution, which is to let the rider onto the grid. So until the red flag restart rules as applies to this situation are properly cleared up he should definitely have been there. Stroudy has every right to argue his case at the time and would be silly not to. Good on him for arguing his way onto the grid.

Protest procedures are there to sort this stuff out because the right decision isn't always made at the side of the track.

[Drew]

The facts aren't all that clear on this so it's not possible to say definitely if Stroudy should've been out there or not. Therefore you have to err on the side of caution, which is to let the rider onto the grid. So until the red flag restart rules as applies to this situation are properly cleared up he should definitely have been there. Stroudy has every right to argue his case at the time and would be silly not to. Good on him for arguing his way onto the grid.

Protest procedures are there to sort this stuff out because the right decision isn't always made at the side of the track.

I knew someone would say this eventually. And you're wrong.

The decision is that of the dude running the event on the day. If someone wants to protest it, more power to them. It wont do them any good though.

Can no one remember the fuckin bullshit at Wanganui when Bernards boys and Stroud didn't qualify, then got put on the front row in front of the people who did? MNZ didn't give a fuck since it was after the fact, and nothing could be done.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Good on him for arguing his way onto the grid.

Protest procedures are there to sort this stuff out because the right decision isn't always made at the side of the track.

You won't see me arguing that he shouldn't have done so either. What you will see, is me saying how fucked up MNZ is that it can't write rules simple enough, and clear enough to have made Strouds argument redundant. It's simply not good enough in this day and age to be so amateurish. As has been mentioned...there's a lot at stake here, some people have spent/borrowed a shitload of money to race in the class. It's not the beginners class ffs.

If a guy that realistically had a chace of winning/finishing in the top three etc with just a few lucky things going his way didn't have to contend with Stroud being on the track...then he shouldn't have to deal with that. It's now obvious that Stroud shouldn't have been there, as I see he's not been awarded points for the race. So he shouldn't have been out there mixing it wth people.

Shame on MNZ.

[Crasherfromwayback]

MNZ didn't give a fuck since it was after the fact, and nothing could be done.

With poolicks like Jim Tuckerman still running the show nothing surprises me.

[Drew]

You won't see me arguing that he shouldn't have done so either. What you will see, is me saying how fucked up MNZ is that it can't write rules simple enough, and clear enough to have made Strouds argument redundant. It's simply noot good enough in this day and age to be so amateurish. As has been mentioned...there's a lot at stake here, some people have spent/borrowed a shitload of money to race in the class. It's not the beginners class ffs.If Stroud does pack a sad, at least it might get some positive action in the wording of the rules.


If a guy that realistically had a chace of winning/finishing in the top three etc with just a few lucky things going his way didn't have to contend with Stroud being on the track...then he shouldn't have to deal with that. It's now obvious that Stroud shouldn't have been there, as I see he's not been awarded points for the race. So he shouldn't have been out there mixing it wth people.

Shame on MNZ.That's why I asked if everyone else couldn't protest.

[Biggles08]

And yes Rhys Holmes did the second half of the race on his 600, again against the rules. it sounded awfully like his R1 to me.

[Grumph]

Fuck yeah. the rule isn't even worded wrong, it is missing a friggin comma.

B.
d. Only those riders who have accomplished at least 65% of the laps
realised by the first rider of the preceding part will be authorised to
restart. Machines may be repaired or replaced.

C. If two thirds of the race distance is completed:
a. This shall be declared a full race. The finishing order shall be at the end
of the lap preceding the stopping of the race. This last sentence should read... "The finishing order shall be at the end of the lap, preceding the stopping of the race".




WRONG...it does not need a comma as the meaning is quite clear. Stroud was entitled to restart under appeal. Whether the appeal is upheld is another matter.

Don't quote street circuit precedents as we have already agreed on here that they are entertainment.....and MNZ couldn't give a damm about the results of them because they don't represent an MNZ organised Championship.

[Kickaha]

With poolicks like Jim Tuckerman still running the show nothing surprises me.

I understand he had quite "discussion" with someone at the track which got a bit heated regarding some rules for a Junior class

[gav]

Also apparently MNZ officials told them they had 15 minutes to restart the race or the GP would be dropped and not return!! :gob:
So naturally they decided to send them all out and clear up the paper work later.

[Mental Trousers]

I knew someone would say this eventually. And you're wrong.

The decision is that of the dude running the event on the day. If someone wants to protest it, more power to them. It wont do them any good though.

You can't run a Nationals round without the event being sanctioned by MNZ and therefore run under their rules. There weren't any supplementary rules that cover this situation so the rules as written in the MNZ Rule Book apply. If they were not applied correctly the Disputes Procedures are there to sort it out.


Can no one remember the fuckin bullshit at Wanganui when Bernards boys and Stroud didn't qualify, then got put on the front row in front of the people who did? MNZ didn't give a fuck since it was after the fact, and nothing could be done.

That was a complete and utter fuck up mate, no denying that. The only possible justification for that is the race would've been diminished by excluding those riders. But that's absolutely no reason for starting them from the front. Competitors are allowed to take part at the discretion of the Course Steward, but there's absolutely no way they should've started from the front of the grid. That's utter bullshit.

[Edbear]

it sounded awfully like his R1 to me.

Hey mate! How'd you do?

[Kickaha]

That was a complete and utter fuck up mate, no denying that. The only possible justification for that is the race would've been diminished by excluding those riders. But that's absolutely no reason for starting them from the front. Competitors are allowed to take part at the discretion of the Course Steward, but there's absolutely no way they should've started from the front of the grid. That's utter bullshit.

They wouldn't have been excluded they would have started off the rear as Jim Tuckerman said would happen at the riders briefing when the question was asked

[Drew]

WRONG...it does not need a comma as the meaning is quite clear. Stroud was entitled to restart under appeal. Whether the appeal is upheld is another matter.

Don't quote street circuit precedents as we have already agreed on here that they are entertainment.....and MNZ couldn't give a damm about the results of them because they don't represent an MNZ organised Championship.The rule is quite clear, your right about that. The rest is fuckin dribble though.

If the rule is clear, why should the rest of the field be impaired by his presence when it shouldn't have been?

Streets are an MNZ sanctioned event, more to the point, competitors are racing for cash fuckin money! They could find themselves in a power of shit if they aren't upholding their own rules when money is on the line. If they are inconsistent, they are a sham!

[Biggles08]

Hey mate! How'd you do?

I didn't crash...went considerably slower than most of the field yet still beat my PB by over 1.5 seconds with a 1:37 flat. Tough field this year mate! Currently sitting on 12th equal with Karl Morgan (mainly due to not falling off more than anything). Need to find some speed somewhere!

[Kickaha]

Streets are an MNZ sanctioned event, more to the point, competitors are racing for cash fuckin money! They could find themselves in a power of shit if they aren't upholding their own rules when money is on the line. If they are inconsistent, they are a sham!

You do realise they do have street racing where cash isn't on the line?

There is street racing other than Wanganui and Paeroa, better events than Wanganui to

[Drew]

You do realise they do have street racing where cash isn't on the line?

There is street racing other than Wanganui and Paeroa, better events than Wanganui toI hadn't really thought about it. But no, I wasn't aware that not all street meets gave cash away.

Doesn't detract from what I'm saying though.

[Grumph]

The rule is quite clear, your right about that. The rest is fuckin dribble though.

If the rule is clear, why should the rest of the field be impaired by his presence when it shouldn't have been?

From what i hear, he tried his best to get out of the way of the rest of the field......well clear.

Have you a personal interest in this ? Sounds like you've got some angst stored up.

[Kickaha]

Have you a personal interest in this ? Sounds like you've got some angst stored up.

No he's just a grumpy cunt, he's practicing for when he gets to your age

[Grumph]

No he's just a grumpy cunt, he's practicing for when he gets to your age

When he gets to my age, he'll know how MNZ rules work and how to manipulate them...

[Crasherfromwayback]

he'll know how MNZ rules work

Doesn't really appear that they do.

[Drew]

From what i hear, he tried his best to get out of the way of the rest of the field......well clear.

Have you a personal interest in this ? Sounds like you've got some angst stored up.One of the most amazing rides ever, but it shouldn't have happened. If the steward had a copy of the rules on hand he could have looked them up quickly, and sent Stroud back to his pit.

It is unfair for the rest of the racers to let him back out, considering he is TWO laps down on the leader.

I race from time to time, so I'd prefer the figurative playing field to be level is all. I have nothing against Stroudy personally, I don't even know the guy. My only vested interest is a good mate, who is a front runner in the class. Should Stroud get points for a race he shouldn't have been in, my mate loses out.

[Mental Trousers]

They wouldn't have been excluded they would have started off the rear as Jim Tuckerman said would happen at the riders briefing when the question was asked

As I stated competing is at the discretion of the Course Steward mate. That means he can allow anyone to compete even if they clearly didn't qualify, but they should be started from the back of the grid.

[jellywrestler]

One of the most amazing rides ever, but it shouldn't have happened. If the steward had a copy of the rules on hand he could have looked them up quickly, and sent Stroud back to his pit.


They did Drew, there were about five people all having a look over it at the time with Stroudy the other bikes were on their warm up lap and they could've spent half an hour discussing it the way it was going backwards and forwards, they weren't even sure on how many laps he'd done till I went into the timing tower, and then it was only my word as there wasn't time to print it out etc.
I hate moments like these but at the time it seemed fairer to let him out there and get on with the race for EVERYBODIES sake and then sort it out afterwards, and that's the same I said to Moir and crew when they were in doubt too.
So hows about putting your suggested wording up here so it can be considered to remove all doubt next time

[Crasherfromwayback]

. Should Stroud get points for a race he shouldn't have been in, my mate loses out.

To me it's not even that. He simply should not have been out there according to their own fucking rules, yet they're incompetent enough to allow it to happen. He's not scored points (as he shouldn't), so your mate is not out of luck there regarding that side of things. But what if Stroud carved your mate up on the way through on his 'amazing lap' and made ya mate run off into the dirt?

Again...he shouldn't have been on the track. MNZ are a joke, and the whole time I've been around always have been.

[snapoff]

They did Drew, there were about five people all having a look over it at the time with Stroudy the other bikes were on their warm up lap and they could've spent half an hour discussing it the way it was going backwards and forwards, they weren't even sure on how many laps he'd done till I went into the timing tower, and then it was only my word as there wasn't time to print it out etc.
I hate moments like these but at the time it seemed fairer to let him out there and get on with the race for EVERYBODIES sake and then sort it out afterwards, and that's the same I said to Moir and crew when they were in doubt too.
So hows about putting your suggested wording up here so it can be considered to remove all doubt next time

why was the comentater telling the officials the rules , all abit odd to me ,the five people tyring to read the one rulebook must be slow readers cos thay should of black flaged him ,thay had 10laps (15min) of race plus the time it took to clean up after the red flag to sort it .MNZ is just SHIT!!!!!!!

[jellywrestler]

why was the comentater telling the officials the rules , all abit odd to me No way was I telling them the rules, I merely confirmed the lap numbers via the official timing and made a five minute call for superbikes for the restart.

[Mental Trousers]

As people seem to be arguing over whether or not he should've been there it's clear at the time the right decision was made. If, after the fact, it isn't clear to a bunch of piss heads (I'm not the only one half pissed on a Monday night right guys??) what the facts were then not allowing a competitor out would've been the wrong decision.

It's simply not possible to get it right everytime. So the officials have to err on the side of caution, which means let the rider get on the grid.

[Crasherfromwayback]

It's simply not possible to get it right everytime. So the officials have to err on the side of caution, which means let the rider get on the grid.

I'm actually not pissed. And no...the 'officials' should be able to understand a simple (well it should be simple) rule and uphold it. You must be pissed if you can't understand/agree with that.

[Mental Trousers]

I'm actually not pissed. And no...the 'officials' should be able to understand a simple (well it should be simple) rule and uphold it. You must be pissed if you can't understand/agree with that.

The rule is relatively clear, but it's the facts at the time that weren't clear. You can't apply a rule if you're not sure of what you're applying it to.

I'm only half pissed by the way. It's a Monday night after all.

[Crasherfromwayback]

The rule is relatively clear, but it's the facts at the time that weren't clear. You can't apply a rule if you're not sure of what you're applying it to.

I'm only half pissed by the way. It's a Monday night after all.

Where the facts that hard to gather/understand? If so...why?

Pour yourself another!

[Billy]

As people seem to be arguing over whether or not he should've been there it's clear at the time the right decision was made. If, after the fact, it isn't clear to a bunch of piss heads (I'm not the only one half pissed on a Monday night right guys??) what the facts were then not allowing a competitor out would've been the wrong decision.

It's simply not possible to get it right everytime. So the officials have to err on the side of caution, which means let the rider get on the grid.

Aww,C'mon now Shane,These experts are never gonna be wrong ROFLMAO !!!!

Its peice of piss to run the sport professionally when its all done by volunteers who donate their time and in many cases it costs them money as well.

The guys who run the National points rounds are local club officials and volunteers,Who get one shot at it every year and while I'm the first to admit its less than perfect,Most people do the best they can with the people and rescources they have to work with and all on top of their day jobs,A huge percentage of those people dont hang around for long enough to get any real experience to help improve the running of these events because they get pissed off with being put down by the likes of the experts we see on this site,You know the ones,Theyre always the last ones too help out,But the first ones with their hands out.

A classic example is Bob Cooke whos well into his twilight years and should be at home with his family or playing bowls or golf or whatever he feels like doing,But no after many years repaying the sport hes enjoyed when he was younger,But no,Hes spent the last 6 months rewriting the rulebook these experts are picking to bits,Not to mention the hundreds of hours put in by Peter Ramage,Brian Bernard,Maarty Van Booma,Neil Smith,Ian Dawson,Grant Ramage,Rob Lewis and myself on the commission and Kev Goddard and Paul Stewart from the board into formulating and trying to rework the rules to keep everybody happy.Piece of piss,Any clown could do better than the current idiots.

So step right up you armchair experts,Its your turn to put something back in now,Contact the office at your earliest convenience and Im sure they'll find you something really easy to do for truckloads of dollars....Or not!!!

[Crasherfromwayback]

Aww,C'mon now Shane,These experts are never gonna be wrong ROFLMAO !!!!

Its peice of piss to run the sport professionally when its all done by volunteers who donate their time and in many cases it costs them money as well.

,A huge percentage of those people dont hang around for long enough to get any real experience to help improve the running of these events because they get pissed off with being put down by the likes of the experts we see on this site,You know the ones,Theyre always the last ones too help out,But the first ones with their hands out.

So step right up you armchair experts,Its your turn to put something back in now,Contact the office at your earliest convenience and Im sure they'll find you something really easy to do for truckloads of dollars....Or not!!!

Billy...you're a genuine GC. But you needn't get so worked up about people pointing out serious issues with the way MNZ do certain things.

They're not personal attacks, yet you're taking it like they are.

There is some SERIOUS money spent by certain teams at the superbike level. It's not on that it gets handled in an amateurish way in my opinion. To say it wasn't handled that way...is doing yourself a disservice. As Tana Umaga said a few years ago..."It's not tiddly winks"

The top teams are doing their very best to be professional...time for MNZ to match the effort.

[Mental Trousers]

Where the facts that hard to gather/understand? If so...why?

Pour yourself another!

Read the first half of the thread mate. Seems that at the time it wasn't clear how many laps the race leader had done and what percentage that equated to. One of the Commissioners has stated quite clearly that he queried what constitutes 65%.

The key part is at the time. Sitting here knocking back some cold ones it's a bit clearer but standing in pit lane with the rule book in hand there's no way they would've been 100% clear.

Clear as mud. Have a couple of Bourbans and you'll start talking sense too mate ;)

[Crasherfromwayback]

Read the first half of the thread mate. Seems that at the time it wasn't clear how many laps the race leader had done and what percentage that equated to. One of the Commissioners has stated quite clearly that he queried what constitutes 65%.

The key part is at the time. Sitting here knocking back some cold ones it's a bit clearer but standing in pit lane with the rule book in hand there's no way they would've been 100% clear.

Clear as mud. Have a couple of Bourbans and you'll start talking sense too mate ;)

You're kidding me right? In this day and age...with transponders...you're telling me they didn't know how many laps the leader did? VS how many laps a bike lying in the dirt did?

Just so you know...it obviously matters not a single stroke of my knob who does what and what happens regarding the mess that went down.

But if I was a team owner/racer in the class...I'd be pretty fucking pissed off with the way things were handled. For people to say "They're only volunteers" etc also sucks. If a volunteer fireman made a mistake and sprayed you in the face with something that made the burning worse...would it be ok? Doubt it very much.

We're not talking about flag marshals and corner workers etc...We're talking about the hierarchy of MNZ, not knowing what the rules clearly state, and then not having the information available to them to make the correct ruling, which in turn could adversely affect other competitors that pay them fucking good money to compete.

Sugar coat it anyway you like. But it sucks as much arse as Viscount Montgomery does in his spare time.

[ellipsis]

As people seem to be arguing over whether or not he should've been there it's clear at the time the right decision was made. If, after the fact, it isn't clear to a bunch of piss heads (I'm not the only one half pissed on a Monday night right guys??) what the facts were then not allowing a competitor out would've been the wrong decision.

It's simply not possible to get it right everytime. So the officials have to err on the side of caution, which means let the rider get on the grid.

...this and your other post back a bit hit it on the nail...the calculations of what portion of the race he had completed before his off didn't matter a fuck up until the race was red flagged, then it became the most important and contentious issue of Rnd 1...this did not escape the notice of the Steward, the COC, the Race Secretary the Timer and the Race Secretary or any one else down in control...the time to verify just where Andrew lost it , radios>>>flaggies>>>radios>>>COC, calculations, doubt, calculations, more doubt, erroneous information>>>discarded, more calculations, re-check the rule book to dispel the doubts....and all the while this is happening vis a vis Andrew Stroud, the COC was being harangued by another rider regards his inability to restart and the Steward being assailed by other team managers and crew with their contentions...the decision to let Stroudy back out was based on all the relevant and factual information that the Steward and the COC had at the time of their decision....this is all that a Steward of the meeting can operate from...a systems failure maybe?...an MNZ fiasco?...but definitely not a failure by the crew in control....

[Mental Trousers]

.....

Mate, the Commentator went and told the officials how many laps were done. They weren't sure.

From what Billy has said it's a safe bet that they also weren't sure what constituted 65%.

The Officials do a great job considering they're not paid. They don't always get it right but what do you expect when you don't have paid professionals with lots of experience to run things. Given the information they had at the time they made the right decision.

[gav]

...this and your other post back a bit hit it on the nail...the calculations of what portion of the race he had completed before his off didn't matter a fuck up until the race was red flagged, then it became the most important and contentious issue of Rnd 1...this did not escape the notice of the Steward, the COC, the Race Secretary the Timer and the Race Secretary or any one else down in control...the time to verify just where Andrew lost it , radios>>>flaggies>>>radios>>>COC, calculations, doubt, calculations, more doubt, erroneous information>>>discarded, more calculations, re-check the rule book to dispel the doubts....and all the while this is happening vis a vis Andrew Stroud, the COC was being harangued by another rider regards his inability to restart and the Steward being assailed by other team managers and crew with their contentions...the decision to let Stroudy back out was based on all the relevant and factual information that the Steward and the COC had at the time of their decision....this is all that a Steward of the meeting can operate from...a systems failure maybe?...an MNZ fiasco?...but definitely not a failure by the crew in control....

So there was confusion whether Stroud had completed 65% of 5 laps rather than the 65% of the original planned 15 laps?? If the wording is so clear cut, why was there any confusion?

As far as transponders go, the guys on pit row don't have that information in front of them either.

[Billy]

Billy...you're a genuine GC. But you needn't get so worked up about people pointing out serious issues with the way MNZ do certain things.

They're not personal attacks, yet you're taking it like they are.

There is some SERIOUS money spent by certain teams at the superbike level. It's not on that it gets handled in an amateurish way in my opinion. To say it wasn't handled that way...is doing yourself a disservice. As Tana Umaga said a few years ago..."It's not tiddly winks"

The top teams are doing their very best to be professional...time for MNZ to match the effort.

Na Mate,Im not getting worked up,Im just saying it like it is,Im well aware of the shortcomings with in our roadrace scene,But if you knew 10% of what went on that behind the scenes,You'd be stunned that anything ever gets done,Its an absolute nightmare,Add to that half the people in the clubs dont know the rules and are really in some cases only there because they got caught with their hand up at an agm when a position was being sought and nobody else would do the job,Then the clubs dont want to run to the rules in some classes and think its their right to just make shit up as they go along and flaunt the MNZ rules and their riders turn up at a national round and start arguing the point cause some tosser in their club filled them up with shit and they believed it and on and on it goes,Its all stuff the under rescourced clubs running the National rounds shouldnt have to and dont have the time to deal with,Sure I'll be the first to admit the redflag/65% rule is a dogs breakfast,I dont think anybody really understands it in its current state and Ive already brought it up with the commission chair and Im sure after this fiasco it'll be revisited,But there were also other issues we were trying to deal that at the time seemed more important,Fuck I could go on for hours about it,But the short version will always be,If your not happy with how things are being run,Then get in and give the guys who are trying a hand,Slinging shit at them and calling them useless is most definitely not going to improve anything,If you tell somebody theyre usless often enough,Eventually they'll believe and hey,Maybe thats where we are,Who knows.

[Crasherfromwayback]

.a systems failure maybe?...an MNZ fiasco?...but definitely not a failure by the crew in control....

Yes, yes and yes.


Mate, the Commentator went and told the officials how many laps were done. They weren't sure.

The Officials do a great job considering they're not paid. They don't always get it right but what do you expect when you don't have paid professionals with lots of experience to run things. Given the information they had at the time they made the right decision.

Don't lose sight of the fact the the riders (most of them anyway) aren't paid either. In fact...they pay serious money to compete at that level. I personally think it's only fair enough they expect and get treatment according to the very rules they have to abide by. Time to stop hiding behind the fact the the MNZ people don't get paid mate. Volunteer fire brigade workers and surf lifesavers don't get paid. But if they made mistakes as basic as the one made last weekend a lot of people would be spewing.

Too many arseholes like Jim Tuckerman taking on roles like he does so he can control people and throw his weight around seeing as he was probably not tall enough to get into the police force way back when.

I've raced most forms of bikes mate...here and in Australia. I've gotta tell ya. MZN take it in the ass.

[Crasherfromwayback]

,If your not happy with how things are being run,Then get in and give the guys who are trying a hand,Slinging shit at them and calling them useless is most definitely not going to improve anything,If you tell somebody theyre usless often enough,Eventually they'll believe and hey,Maybe thats where we are,Who knows.

Mate...I work 6 days a week, every fucking week, and have done for the last 25 years. How the hell would I find the time to help out?

I can't even find the time to go and watch Rachel racing even though I'd love to. It's a fucking joy to even get the vintage bike out once in a blue moon!

If I one day win lotto...I'll put in the 6 days a week I work now to try and make a differnce to MNZ. As long as Jim Tuckerman isn't there.

Promise.

[RobGassit]

Yes, yes and yes.



Don't lose sight of the fact the the riders (most of them anyway) aren't paid either. In fact...they pay serious money to compete at that level. I personally think it's only fair enough they expect and get treatment according to the very rules they have to abide by. Time to stop hiding behind the fact the the MNZ people don't get paid mate. Volunteer fire brigade workers and surf lifesavers don't get paid. But if they made mistakes as basic as the one made last weekend a lot of people would be spewing.

Too many arseholes like Jim Tuckerman taking on roles like he does so he can control people and throw his weight around seeing as he was probably not tall enough to get into the police force way back when.

I've raced most forms of bikes mate...here and in Australia. I've gotta tell ya. MZN take it in the ass.

As the technical steward told me on the weekend, "yes i know but we are all here for fun aren't we?" To be fair he was a lovely bloke but he obviously isn't paying any of my bills.

[Billy]

Mate...I work 6 days a week, every fucking week, and have done for the last 25 years. How the hell would I find the time to help out?



Yip,I do to and so does Jim Tuckerman and Kevin Goddard as well as most of the other mnz officials and club presidents,Secretaries,Treasurers and so on,So now you realise just how much spare time those people have to do the job,Most of us are up til well into the small hours dealing with MNZ business so you can understand how things dont run quite as smoothly or professionally as they could.

[Drew]

So there was confusion whether Stroud had completed 65% of 5 laps rather than the 65% of the original planned 15 laps?? If the wording is so clear cut, why was there any confusion?

As far as transponders go, the guys on pit row don't have that information in front of them either.I don't think anyone was questioning weather Stroud had completed 65% of the planned race distance, nor that he should have. Since if the race has gone past 65%, it wont be restarted.

Here's my proposal for the simplest way to clarify the rule.

Add an appendix to it saying just this. "Race distance shall be deemed to be the number of laps, the race leader had completed at the time of the stoppage". Easy fuckin peasy. I'm pretty confident that this is exactly how almost everyone understands the rules as they are anyway.

[Grumph]

Too simplistic....international convention takes it back a lap for very good reasons. There can be a considerable delay between accident and red flag for one.

[Billy]

And as I expected,An email in my inbox at 1.15am from within the purple circle of us useless twats that know nothing,Requesting us to do a clarification of the redflag/65% ruling to be presented at AGM !!!

Now I wonder who we're gonna upset with that,Possibly the competitor that told us in no uncertain terms we couldnt release the rules on September the 1st then in November wanted us to change them and release them on Jan the 1st,6 days before round 1 and THEN decided they'd make their own rules and hand them out at sign in at round 1 ??????or the team manager who rang and abused us for changing a rule(That incidently hadnt been changed,Hed just never read the rules properly before)7 weeks out from round 1 and then got his mechanic to request a rule change 2 weeks later.

Fuck yeah,This easy peasy,Cant think why there arent people lining up in their droves to do this job,Or can I ????

[wayne]

once the gate was open for riders to be on track, how long before it is closed for pit lane start only ?

[Biggles08]

once the gate was open for riders to be on track, how long before it is closed for pit lane start only ? they told us 60 seconds at riders briefing

[discodan]

Any time the rules are used differently for one rider over another it is harming the sport, not helping it.

Will it still be better for the spectacle when we don't get any international riders next year as they perceive the championship to nothing more than a joke?!

It is easy to criticise the officials after the matter but the reality is that Stroud probably affected the results of other riders simply by being on track when he was not supposed to be.

Is this the same steward who had no idea about the rules last year and had a go at anyone who brought up saftey concerns?

[RobGassit]

It did seem to cost Robbie Bugden an engine and I remember poor Nick Cole having to start from pit lane in Timaru for what appeared to be another misunderstanding. It's club level stuff the car guys would never accept at National level. Maybe we need to pay a team of officials to do it all the time.

[merv]

First thing MNZ should do is call in Hitcher to proof read its rules when it writes stuff like this excerpt from the race stoppage and restart rules:

"6.13 `Stopping and Restarting a Race`
Road Race Events


B. If three or more laps but less than two thirds of the race distance have taken
place.
a. The race shall be considered to be more than one part. The race
positions at the end of the lap preceding the stopping of the race. In all
cases where a restart takes place, this will be 30 minutes at the latest
after the previous part has stopped."

The bit I've highlighted in bold isn't even a complete sentence so can everyone be sure it says what they think it should say.

[Bykmad]

First thing MNZ should do is call in Hitcher to proof read its rules when it writes stuff like this excerpt from the race stoppage and restart rules:

"6.13 `Stopping and Restarting a Race`
Road Race Events


B. If three or more laps but less than two thirds of the race distance have taken
place.
a. The race shall be considered to be more than one part. The race
positions at the end of the lap preceding the stopping of the race. In all
cases where a restart takes place, this will be 30 minutes at the latest
after the previous part has stopped."

The bit I've highlighted in bold isn't even a complete sentence so can everyone be sure it says what they think it should say.

In the MNZ Manual of Motorsport I have, the passage reads:
6-13
B.
" a. The race shall be considered to be more than one part. The race
positions at the end of the lap preceding the stopping of the race WILL BE THE GRID POSITIONS IF A RESTART TAKES PLACE. In all cases where a restart takes place, this will be AS SOON AS POSSIBLE AFTER THE PREVIOUS PART HAS BEEN STOPPED."
b. The distance of the restarted race will be that required to make up the initial full race distance.

c. Only those riders who have accomplished at least 65% of the laps realised by the first rider of the preceding part will be authorised to restart. Machines cannot be replaced.
d. Half points will be awarded to each part. If it is impossible to restart the race, half points only will be awarded towards the championship.

That is from the MNZ Manual of Motorsport Rule Book delivered late December and which is in force effective 01/01/2012.

[Tony.OK]

In the MNZ Manual of Motorsport I have, the passage reads:
6-13
B.
" a. The race shall be considered to be more than one part. The race
positions at the end of the lap preceding the stopping of the race WILL BE THE GRID POSITIONS IF A RESTART TAKES PLACE. In all cases where a restart takes place, this will be AS SOON AS POSSIBLE AFTER THE PREVIOUS PART HAS BEEN STOPPED."
b. The distance of the restarted race will be that required to make up the initial full race distance.

c. Only those riders who have accomplished at least 65% of the laps realised by the first rider of the preceding part will be authorised to restart. Machines cannot be replaced.
d. Half points will be awarded to each part. If it is impossible to restart the race, half points only will be awarded towards the championship.

That is from the MNZ Manual of Motorsport Rule Book delivered late December and which is in force effective 01/01/2012.

Looks like the online MNZ rules have been changed since yesterday to what you have shown.

[Bykmad]

Looks like the online MNZ rules have been changed since yesterday to what you have shown.

I said that they were the rules from the MNZ Manual of Motorsport as delivered to me by NZ Post just before Christmas, not the online version. There is also a letter that came with the book stating that the rules contained there in are effective from 01/01/2012.

[Tony.OK]

I said that they were the rules from the MNZ Manual of Motorsport as delivered to me by NZ Post just before Christmas, not the online version. There is also a letter that came with the book stating that the rules contained there in are effective from 01/01/2012.

I know, I was merely saying that the online ones had now changed to the same as the hard copy you have (not worded well, my bad). Obviously the "online" rules were out of date up until today.................causing a bit of confusion. :calm:

[Bykmad]

Have a look at rule 8.1.3 and tell me what commercially available body armour, including back protection, a road racer has to wear? And were they wearing the body armour, including back protection, last weekend??

The wording has been transferred from Enduro/Coss country and Moto Cross into Road Race. Not the wording that I remember for Road Racing safety gear.

[Tony.OK]

Have a look at rule 8.1.3 and tell me what commercially available body armour, including back protection, a road racer has to wear? And were they wearing the body armour, including back protection, last weekend??

The wording has been transferred from Enduro/Coss country and Moto Cross into Road Race. Not the wording that I remember for Road Racing safety gear.

8.1.3 ROAD RACING, ROAD HILL CLIMBS & RECORD ATTEMPTS :
Safety Helmets - as per rule 8.2.
Boots - as per rule 8.3.
Clothing - Complete suits of leather or Kevlar.
Body Armour - Must be a commercially available brand constructed from high density foam (or similar).
Gloves - Leather only is approved.
Eye Protection - as per rule 8.2.10.

Seems to me back protectors are no longer specifically required lmao :crazy:

[Bykmad]

I reckon it is a cock up!!!! Stipulates that body armour including back protection must be worn. My understanding of that is that ALL the back protectors, as we know them, are illegal unless they are a full set of body armour including back protection.

Have fun with that one.

[Crasherfromwayback]

[I]
Seems to me back protectors are no longer specifically required lmao :crazy:

I never used to wear one until they became compulsary.

[Tony.OK]

I never used to wear one until they became compulsary.

Yeah but you're one of those old school tuff bastards aren't ya? :bleh:
Shaun keeps telling all newcomers that they're soft..................so back protectors should be worn:whistle::innocent::niceone:

Man all the bullshit that goes with racing and I'm still considering coming back cause I miss it..............perhaps just easier to agree that we're all fuk'd in the heads :weird:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Yeah but you're one of those old school tuff bastards aren't ya? :bleh:
Shaun keeps telling all newcomers that they're soft..................so back protectors should be worn:whistle::innocent::niceone:

Man all the bullshit that goes with racing and I'm still considering coming back cause I miss it..............perhaps just easier to agree that we're all fuk'd in the heads :weird:

Nah, I'm actually a pussy. But I never used to wear body armour when racing moto-x either. I simply feel restricted wearing too much gear.

You should try some vmx racing. Fuck all rules and really laid back atmosphere = a fun day with no bullshit.

[RobGassit]

Nah, I'm actually a pussy. But I never used to wear body armour when racing moto-x either. I simply feel restricted wearing too much gear.

You should try some vmx racing. Fuck all rules and really laid back atmosphere = a fun day with no bullshit.


VMX ROCKS! and hardly any chequebook tossers.

[Edbear]

VMX ROCKS! and hardly any chequebook tossers.

Interesting sport, I've heard of gumboot tossing... :wacko:

[slowpoke]

Fark me, am i in LA or NZ.....break out the lawyers shall we? I honestly thought Kiwi's were better than that, but looks like I'm wrong again. Just like I was wrong about Kiwi's giving everyone a fair go. For everyone who thinks Stroudy gets special treatment there are just as many people who want to knock him down because he's successful. Well guess what, his ride in the second part of race 2 showed exactly WHY he's successful. Just as the stewards didn't quite know what to do, Stroudy also had no idea if his efforts would be rewarded, yet he still went out and put his body on the line.

For all you keyboard warriors knocking the marshall's for their effort I'd love to see you lot put on the spot. And if Scott Moir had rolled up for the restart I'd put money on the the same people who think Stroudy shouldn't have started saying "Oh what's the harm, let him race!".

Motorcycle racing was the winner on Sunday, even if Stroudy wasn't, and I'm fuckin' glad i was there to see it whatever the result as was everyone else hangin' and hootin' over the pit wall. After seeing the guy rolling into the pits with battered bike and body, an embarrassed smile on his face (never seen someone smiling after crashing), help fix his own bike then go straight back out and do what he did was one of the most inspirational things I've seen in my life.

Choose your attitude, choose your result, so lets celebrate the good stuff:, great to see Craig Shirrifs have some overdue reward (especially at Ruapuna) for his efforts, along with Dan Stauffer/Brian Bernard who deserve some support to keep going. Fingers crossed they find it, the series will be poorer without them in it. Great effort by the commentators, was one of the more "interesting" commentary's and definitely not the usual dry as weetbix efforts at most sporting events. Also, well done by the MCI team, apart from some very unusual circumstances you took everything in you stride and ran a very smooth event. As a result I'll definitely be back.......whether you like it or not.

[Matt Bleck]

Fark me, am i in LA or NZ.....break out the lawyers shall we? I honestly thought Kiwi's were better than that, but looks like I'm wrong again. Just like I was wrong about Kiwi's giving everyone a fair go. For everyone who thinks Stroudy gets special treatment there are just as many people who want to knock him down because he's successful. Well guess what, his ride in the second part of race 2 showed exactly WHY he's successful. Just as the stewards didn't quite know what to do, Stroudy also had no idea if his efforts would be rewarded, yet he still went out and put his body on the line.

For all you keyboard warriors knocking the marshall's for their effort I'd love to see you lot put on the spot. And if Scott Moir had rolled up for the restart I'd put money on the the same people who think Stroudy shouldn't have started saying "Oh what's the harm, let him race!".

Motorcycle racing was the winner on Sunday, even if Stroudy wasn't, and I'm fuckin' glad i was there to see it whatever the result as was everyone else hangin' and hootin' over the pit wall. After seeing the guy rolling into the pits with battered bike and body, an embarrassed smile on his face (never seen someone smiling after crashing), help fix his own bike then go straight back out and do what he did was one of the most inspirational things I've seen in my life.

Choose your attitude, choose your result, so lets celebrate the good stuff:, great to see Craig Shirrifs have some overdue reward (especially at Ruapuna) for his efforts, along with Dan Stauffer/Brian Bernard who deserve some support to keep going. Fingers crossed they find it, the series will be poorer without them in it. Great effort by the commentators, was one of the more "interesting" commentary's and definitely not the usual dry as weetbix efforts at most sporting events. Also, well done by the MCI team, apart from some very unusual circumstances you took everything in you stride and ran a very smooth event. As a result I'll definitely be back.......whether you like it or not.

Hell yeah, I was gutted I didn't get to race, but watching Stroudy riding like a man possessed (by Jesus obviously) was a small consolation. Oh and watching him crash isn't something you see often either!

MCI did a bloody good job I reckon all things considered, and it wouldn't be a bad thing if the remaining 5 are run to the same level. Well done guys!

[jellywrestler]

Hell yeah, I was gutted I didn't get to race, hey paul meant to catch up and see what you were up to but didn't , why were you sidelined?

[Matt Bleck]

hey paul meant to catch up and see what you were up to but didn't , why were you sidelined?

I believe they call it the death rattle.... :bye:

[merv]

Looks like the online MNZ rules have been changed since yesterday to what you have shown.

Yeah bugger me, they've changed them since I did my copy and paste. Now how well were they proof read this time? Perhaps Andrew has a valid case if the rule did need an update.

[Dreama]

Fark me, am i in LA or NZ.....break out the lawyers shall we? I honestly thought Kiwi's were better than that, but looks like I'm wrong again. Just like I was wrong about Kiwi's giving everyone a fair go. For everyone who thinks Stroudy gets special treatment there are just as many people who want to knock him down because he's successful. Well guess what, his ride in the second part of race 2 showed exactly WHY he's successful. Just as the stewards didn't quite know what to do, Stroudy also had no idea if his efforts would be rewarded, yet he still went out and put his body on the line.

For all you keyboard warriors knocking the marshall's for their effort I'd love to see you lot put on the spot. And if Scott Moir had rolled up for the restart I'd put money on the the same people who think Stroudy shouldn't have started saying "Oh what's the harm, let him race!".

Motorcycle racing was the winner on Sunday, even if Stroudy wasn't, and I'm fuckin' glad i was there to see it whatever the result as was everyone else hangin' and hootin' over the pit wall. After seeing the guy rolling into the pits with battered bike and body, an embarrassed smile on his face (never seen someone smiling after crashing), help fix his own bike then go straight back out and do what he did was one of the most inspirational things I've seen in my life.

Choose your attitude, choose your result, so lets celebrate the good stuff:, great to see Craig Shirrifs have some overdue reward (especially at Ruapuna) for his efforts, along with Dan Stauffer/Brian Bernard who deserve some support to keep going. Fingers crossed they find it, the series will be poorer without them in it. Great effort by the commentators, was one of the mor
interesting" commentary's and definitely not the usual dry as weetbix efforts at most sporting events. Also, well done by the MCI team, apart from some very unusual circumstances you took everything in you stride and ran a very smooth event. As a result I'll definitely be back.......whether you like it or not.

I'm with you Spud ... well said mate.
I've been involved with coaching sports teams for years and I see the same thing .... lot's of advisers, critics and baggers .... but when it comes to the actual 'doing something about it' bit the silence is deafening. And the old excuse of 'too busy to help' is bullshit .... like Billy said, we all work long hours. It comes down to the simple fact that some (most) are takers and some (very few) are natural givers ... I applaud the administrators, committee people, track workers and all the other volunteer helpers for their selfless contribution. As for the Stroudy thing ... well the word 'legend' gets used for all sorts of titles now ... but despite that, he is a true legend in this sport. His committment year after year, the expectations he carries, all those kids .... fuck, I get tired just thinking about it. I'm bloody glad he was able to get back on the track ... wish I'd been there to see it.

[ellipsis]

...the other side to the decision to let Stroud back out was that 'the 65% completed', part was contentious, both ways at the time...the teams calculations and officials calculations were the all important 'crux of the biscuit'...how much a heinous crime, and how much shit would the officials get, if he proved later that he was correct...and he had been stopped...why anyone wants to become an official run meetings and take shit and abuse, give up their time, their racing, beats me...but we still do it...why?.... because there couldn't be a sport without us....wanna get professionals to do it...sounds fucking good to me...what weet-bix box do they fall out of....

[MVnut]

I really enjoyed the race and feel Andrew should have been allowed to start in the race because of the uncertainty of his 65%. However the regrid was a farce with Andrew initially going to the front....it was the job of the officals to make sure the riders were aware of grid restart positions prior to the warmup lap !!!!!!!(were they?) Unfortunately Robbie Bugden's bike overheated because of delays, we (spectators) were cheated ?? out of an even better race, yes I blame the officials.