More median barriers requested

[Conquiztador]

Here: http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8398115/holiday-period-ends-with-18-road-deaths

And we are talking about cheese cutters... requested by Clive Matthew-Wilson, editor of the car review website dogandlemon.com.

[SMOKEU]

Knowing the stupidity of politicians, it doesn't surprise me that these will become more and more common on NZ roads. My mum (who works as a nurse) has personally seen 2 motorcyclists decapitated by these.

[Tigadee]

AA spokesman Simon Lambourne : "...safer drivers in safer cars, on safer roads travelling at safer speeds."

The dork doesn't seem to realise that the drivers need to drive safely and at safer speeds in the first place. As with guns, it's people who are dangerous, not the roads or cars.

[paturoa]

Just sent him an email via his D&L site:

I'm deeply concerned at your request for more wire rope median barriers.

However I support your call for more barriers, but please no more cheese cutters.

These are extremely dangerous for motorcycle riders and many other countries no longer install them in the configuration used in NZ.

The configuration of the steel posts and ropes guarentees a fatality or critical injury on any contact. Overseas they are retrofitting solid covers or are progressively replacing them with smooth concrete or full height steel "armco" barriers, so that the riders slide off them with a glancing blow.

Next time you are driving past in your car, can I request that you visualise yourself sliding along the road into one of these death traps. Please try to imagine if there is any way that a motorcyclist could avoid death or critical injury.

Also you may wish to investigate the effectiveness of these barriers for large vehicles. Most trucks just go straight through them.

In all seriousness, it would be hard to come up with a barrier design that could be more dangerous for motorcyclists.

I'm happy to direct you to further resources should you be interested.

[bogan]

The AA estimates installing wire ropes and rumble strips could prevent up to 90 road deaths per year - nearly a third of the current road toll.

I think the AA is being somewhat optimistic there.


Since a median barrier had been installed on the Waikato Expressway a vehicle had hit it about once a week.

"That's once a week we have avoided a head-on crash.

:facepalm: Pretty sure the other side of the road doesn't always have traffic on it, and there is still a m or two for maneuvering after the vehicle would encounter the WRB zone.

But why settle for realism, when you can use propaganda instead :facepalm:

[paturoa]

Does anyone have an email addy for the Simon Lambourne character?

His quotes sounds sensible and he doesn't appear to mention cheese cutters.

[MSTRS]

Knowing the stupidity of politicians, it doesn't surprise me that these will become more and more common on NZ roads. My mum (who works as a nurse) has personally seen 2 motorcyclists decapitated by these.

Not here in NZ, tho. In saying that, there was one death/dismemberment here although the rider did themselves no favours.
Still - it's not rocket science, eh? Hit a narrow steel post at any sort of speed, and the result will not be pretty.
Seen the posts they're using for Armco now?

[BMWST?]

its the silly overtaking and inconsiderate driving that causes most of the centreline excursions ,even if no excess speed occurs we will normally see closing speeds of 160 or more.

[Conquiztador]

Dear Mr Mattew-Wilson

As a motorbike rider I am alarmed about the increase in wire-rope median barriers (Cheese Cutters). I have also noticed that they are now also used on the outside of the roads.

If you have ever been riding a motorbike in traffic you would know how a rider needs to always have a exit strategy clear in case something goes wrong. By fitting these cheese cutters on the roads that option is eliminated for us bikers. Hitting the wire barrier is not an option, and so I now find my self planning to hit the car and jump from the bike flying over the car, as I have lost the option of going off the road or crossing the middle to escape.

The wire rope barriers we are currently fitting in NZ are in most developed countries being modified and retro-fitted with covers. And in many countries they are not fitted anymore as a result of their danger to riders, but also as a result of them being in-effective when it really counts.

One thing that always surprises me is the amount of money we are prepared to spend on saving lives of road users. You quote a cost between $550 million to $1.1 billion to fit the barriers to 370 Km's of road. This, apperently, would save 90 lives per year. We are currently spending $300 million/year in policing the roads and $290 million in road upgrades. The total road deaths are yearly around 400. I do agree that this is 400 that should not have died. But at the same time we have close to 500 suicides a year and we spend $1.38 million/year in prevention... (I also 2 days ago had a discussion with someone in the know who told me that over 400 people died yearly in hospitals as a result of wrong medication being distributed...)

I therefore question the logic in spending millions per person saved on the road when there are areas where thousands would save the same amount of lives.

Personally I advocate for better driver/rider training, compulsory follow up training, regular medical tests to determine if a person is fit to drive/ride, instead of more draconian mesures and huge spending on barriers, signs, rumble lines and other measures that only contribute to take away responsibility from the individuals.

[Haggis2]

Dear Mr Mattew-Wilson

As a motorbike rider I am alarmed about the increase in wire-rope median barriers (Cheese Cutters). I have also noticed that they are now also used on the outside of the roads.

If you have ever been riding a motorbike in traffic you would know how a rider needs to always have a exit strategy clear in case something goes wrong. By fitting these cheese cutters on the roads that option is eliminated for us bikers. Hitting the wire barrier is not an option, and so I now find my self planning to hit the car and jump from the bike flying over the car, as I have lost the option of going off the road or crossing the middle to escape.

The wire rope barriers we are currently fitting in NZ are in most developed countries being modified and retro-fitted with covers. And in many countries they are not fitted anymore as a result of their danger to riders, but also as a result of them being in-effective when it really counts.

One thing that always surprises me is the amount of money we are prepared to spend on saving lives of road users. You quote a cost between $550 million to $1.1 billion to fit the barriers to 370 Km's of road. This, apperently, would save 90 lives per year. We are currently spending $300 million/year in policing the roads and $290 million in road upgrades. The total road deaths are yearly around 400. I do agree that this is 400 that should not have died. But at the same time we have close to 500 suicides a year and we spend $1.38 million/year in prevention... (I also 2 days ago had a discussion with someone in the know who told me that over 400 people died yearly in hospitals as a result of wrong medication being distributed...)

I therefore question the logic in spending millions per person saved on the road when there are areas where thousands would save the same amount of lives.

Personally I advocate for better driver/rider training, compulsory follow up training, regular medical tests to determine if a person is fit to drive/ride, instead of more draconian mesures and huge spending on barriers, signs, rumble lines and other measures that only contribute to take away responsibility from the individuals.



Well said :niceone:

[skinman]

Dear Mr Mattew-Wilson



.

Very good. Bling sent

You are now the proud recipient of my very 1st bling :first:

[paturoa]

Just sent him an email via his D&L site:

I'm deeply concerned at your request for more wire rope median barriers.

However I support your call for more barriers, but please no more cheese cutters.

These are extremely dangerous for motorcycle riders and many other countries no longer install them in the configuration used in NZ.

The configuration of the steel posts and ropes guarentees a fatality or critical injury on any contact. Overseas they are retrofitting solid covers or are progressively replacing them with smooth concrete or full height steel "armco" barriers, so that the riders slide off them with a glancing blow.

Next time you are driving past in your car, can I request that you visualise yourself sliding along the road into one of these death traps. Please try to imagine if there is any way that a motorcyclist could avoid death or critical injury.

Also you may wish to investigate the effectiveness of these barriers for large vehicles. Most trucks just go straight through them.

In all seriousness, it would be hard to come up with a barrier design that could be more dangerous for motorcyclists.

I'm happy to direct you to further resources should you be interested.

I just got a response from him, which I must say is excellent!

"I share your concern about unguarded wire rope barriers. I have never suggested that these be installed. I have called for wire rope barriers to be installed, along with properly fitted plastic covers.

I suggest you read the following report:

http://www.eurorap.org/library/pdfs/20081202_Bikers.pdf

cheers

Clive Matthew-Wilson
editor
Dogandlemon.com"

I'm going to respond and point him at the MSN site that omits that piece.

[Conquiztador]

"I share your concern about unguarded wire rope barriers. I have never suggested that these be installed. I have called for wire rope barriers to be installed, along with properly fitted plastic covers.

I suggest you read the following report:

http://www.eurorap.org/library/pdfs/20081202_Bikers.pdf

cheers

Clive Matthew-Wilson"

And my as quick reply:

Hi Clive
You might be interested in the following: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/59539-Cheesecutter-campaign<O:p></O:p


Re you not advocating for wire rope barriers, sadly the article that prompted me to write to you states the opposite in the following quote: “[/FONT]Figures he obtained under the Official Information Act show it would cost between $550 million and $1.1 billion to install wire rope median barriers on 372 kilometres of high risk, high traffic volume roads that don't currently have a median barrier.”<O:p></O:p>
Taken from: http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8398115/holiday-period-ends-with-18-road-deaths

Perhaps you could try to correct it? (Not sure re how this could be done, but currently bikers in NZ would see you as someone who advocates for the cheese cutters…)

[Brian407]

Very well put, and bound to make him think, but remember one thing. You are writing to a member of the AUTOMOBILE Association, and to him Automobiles have more than two wheels. For the most part they dont give a flying fark about motorcyclists because most of their paid up members are car owners and it's thier interests they're charged with looking after. Sure, some motorcyclists are members of the AA, but the majority of members are car owners, as is evidenced by the number of bike articles that appear in thier mag. Maybe 2 a year if were lucky.

[rachprice]

They should really call for tougher licensing tests and having to re-sit tests after you have lost your license for danger use of motor vehicle which should be even tougher than getting your license

[huff3r]

... requested by Clive Matthew-Wilson, editor of the car review website dogandlemon.com.

Car review website? That's a bit of a rich title for that useless piece of writing. It's like the tabloid of car reviews, full of opinion and needless naysaying. No surprise he would be the type to make comments like those in the article, and he probably also blames the lack of protection on a motorcycle in an incident with a WRB on the motorcycle itself. 1 out of 5 stars for survivability or some garbage like that.

[MSTRS]

Very well put, and bound to make him think, but remember one thing. You are writing to a member of the AUTOMOBILE Association, and to him Automobiles have more than two wheels. For the most part they dont give a flying fark about motorcyclists because most of their paid up members are car owners and it's thier interests they're charged with looking after. Sure, some motorcyclists are members of the AA, but the majority of members are car owners, as is evidenced by the number of bike articles that appear in thier mag. Maybe 2 a year if were lucky.

Correct. The attitude is "I'm all right, Jack. The barrier/s will save me." is prevalent.
Now - if 'we' could get an article in their magazine with a picture of a WRB and a diced motorcyclist, then a picture of a covered WRB (replace pictures with Armco/posts if you like) with the comment "This would have saved the biker"...
Imagine the howls...but that would be worth 20 years of the current method/s of trying to get change.

[cs363]

Does anyone have an email addy for the Simon Lambourne character?

His quotes sounds sensible and he doesn't appear to mention cheese cutters.

Simon Lambourne | Public Affairs Manager
T. +64 9 966 8608 M. +64 21 659 029
E. slambourne@aa.co.nz

[Conquiztador]

I would give the man the benefit of a doubt. He did give me the link to the report re barriers and bikes, and he also tells me that he does not want wire barriers w/o covers! (see my post #13 here) And if you have never read the report before, please follow the link.

[scumdog]

Knowing the stupidity of politicians, it doesn't surprise me that these will become more and more common on NZ roads. My mum (who works as a nurse) has personally seen 2 motorcyclists decapitated by these.


ONE dead from hitting them in NZ that I know of, I'd gladly stand corrected if somebody can outline the particulars of the second one. (Talking about cheese-cutters here)

But has anybody got the figures of bikers killed by cars crossing the centreline of the road?

BTW: Of the last three fatals I attended involving motorcyclists that died two of the bikes crossed the centre-line and hit oncoming vehicles and one crossed the centre-line and the rider died after hitting the rocks and fence on the other side of the road. ("Your experience may differ")

(I'll try to remember the circumstances of any other crashes but the above three are the first that came to mind).

[SMOKEU]

ONE dead from hitting them in NZ that I know of, I'd gladly stand corrected if somebody can outline the particulars of the second one. (Talking about cheese-cutters here)



I never said it was in NZ.

[scumdog]

I never said it was in NZ.

I know.

But why clutter up the thread with irrelevant 'facts' from other countries??

[SMOKEU]

I know.

But why clutter up the thread with irrelevant 'facts' from other countries??

I was merely making conversation in order to back up the claims of the OP.

[bogan]

ONE dead from hitting them in NZ that I know of, I'd gladly stand corrected if somebody can outline the particulars of the second one. (Talking about cheese-cutters here)

But has anybody got the figures of bikers killed by cars crossing the centreline of the road?

BTW: Of the last three fatals I attended involving motorcyclists that died two of the bikes crossed the centre-line and hit oncoming vehicles and one crossed the centre-line and the rider died after hitting the rocks and fence on the other side of the road. ("Your experience may differ")

(I'll try to remember the circumstances of any other crashes but the above three are the first that came to mind).

Not really apples with apples is it. Much more of NZ is non-wrb, so you'd expect much more centerline-cross fatalities than WRB fatalities for that reason alone. And how many bikers 'run on' into the opposing lane which is luckily clear of traffic, and get away with it, which they would not with WRBs.

[Brian407]

BTW: Of the last three fatals I attended involving motorcyclists that died .

As apposed to the fatals you attended where nobody died..... Ummmm...... can I add that to my list of 'interesting quotes'? :killingme

[caspernz]

Having seen an oncoming car tag the barrier around the waterfront stretch between Pukerua Bay and Paekakariki (Wellington area) some years back....well, I still prefer a concrete barrier, but the wire rope did the job.

Agree any new central barriers should be solid concrete or armco.

[scumdog]

As apposed to the fatals you attended where nobody died..... Ummmm...... can I add that to my list of 'interesting quotes'? :killingme

Ahem, I WAS trying to emphasise that said fatals involved MOTORCYCLISTS. (as opposed to 'cage' drivers).

Some drongos may not have otherwise picked up that point...

[scumdog]

Having seen an oncoming car tag the barrier around the waterfront stretch between Pukerua Bay and Paekakariki (Wellington area) some years back....well, I still prefer a concrete barrier, but the wire rope did the job.

Agree any new central barriers should be solid concrete or armco.

Yep, movable concrete barriers would be the go.:niceone:

[actungbaby]

They should really call for tougher licensing tests and having to re-sit tests after you have lost your license for danger use of motor vehicle which should be even tougher than getting your license

gee i thought they did have to resit there tests bit daft if they dont , how about if in thery this whould be cool

If you sit and do advanded rider training u get discount of you acc levvys or rego costs say like 50 dollars per year

And they but some Money they get from motorcycle acc levvys into funding rider training /car driving centres
Am not sure we have enough bikers to warrent just bike training and no need really to have seprate

Chould Have Bikes fitted with out riggers for 100kph emergency breaking tests

What do others think dumb idea ?

[BMWST?]

Having seen an oncoming car tag the barrier around the waterfront stretch between Pukerua Bay and Paekakariki (Wellington area) some years back....well, I still prefer a concrete barrier, but the wire rope did the job.

Agree any new central barriers should be solid concrete or armco.

there is not always room for concrete or armco,the wrb are very thin,that is why wrb are used along the paekak.pukerua bay imho.

[Usarka]

Before the holidays the police were wanking on saying the low road toll was because the police had done an outstanding job with enforcement and campaigns.

Therefore the reason why the holiday road toll was so high is because the cops did a shit job over the break. You can't have it both ways rozzas!

[huff3r]

there is not always room for concrete or armco,the wrb are very thin,that is why wrb are used along the paekak.pukerua bay imho.

Yet they had to widen the roads to allow a "buffer zone" around the WRBs along that stretch of road.... imho concrete barriers would take up similar, even maybe slightly less space than the WRB.

[pete376403]

there is not always room for concrete or armco,the wrb are very thin,that is why wrb are used along the paekak.pukerua bay imho.

Concrete barriers on the Hutt road between Petone and Wellington wouldn't be much more than 400-500 mm thick at the base. WRBs look about 100mm wide posts plus another 40-50 mm each side where the wire goes over the supports. While this is half the (approximates, I've never stopped to measure any of them) concrete, some of the places I've seen WRBs installed (eg south of Melling (Lower Hutt) or South of Pukerua Bay) the WRB posts are set into a depressed strip of road (drainange channel?) at least as wide as any concrete barrier.

More about politics than practicalities (either that or money changed hands)

[steve_t]

Yet they had to widen the roads to allow a "buffer zone" around the WRBs along that stretch of road.... imho concrete barriers would take up similar, even maybe slightly less space than the WRB.

It'd be interesting to see what effect widening the road without adding the barrier would have. There are a number of places where there is a wide median painted on the road without a barrier, plus a sign saying No Overtaking on the Median. While I've never seen anyone overtake on the painted median, I'm sure it probably happens from time to time

[Swoop]

Yep, movable concrete barriers would be the go.:niceone:
Especially if provided by free labour from prisoners.
They could have a few moulds, pour concrete and contribute to society in a very constructive way.

[Ocean1]

Concrete barriers on the Hutt road between Petone and Wellington wouldn't be much more than 400-500 mm thick at the base. WRBs look about 100mm wide posts plus another 40-50 mm each side where the wire goes over the supports.

Yes. But at least one source reported that a WRB manufacturer recommend at least 3.5 Metres offset between the traffic limit and the barier. That's a median of 7 Metres wide.


How cheap are your WRBs looking if you have to widen the road several Metres?

[MSTRS]

How cheap are your WRBs looking if you have to widen the road several Metres?

Very cheap. In NZ, you don't have to widen roads or anything. You just whack the fuckers in. The Minister of Transport and NZTA know that WRB are perfectly safe for everyone. They know this because there have been no studies done to suggest otherwise.

[riffer]

Very cheap. In NZ, you don't have to widen roads or anything. You just whack the fuckers in. The Minister of Transport and NZTA know that WRB are perfectly safe for everyone. They know this because there have been no studies done to suggest otherwise.

Well, sort of. The truth is probably more that they have saved more than they have killed or mutilated. If you put yourself in a bureaucrats shoes it makes a perverse sort of sense.

[Ocean1]

Well, sort of. The truth is probably more that they have saved more than they have killed or mutilated. If you put yourself in a bureaucrats shoes it makes a perverse sort of sense.

Until you discover that concrete is statistically as safe as WRB, and costs less over it's service life. But then, you should have known that a bureacrat isn't disinterested where such factors impinge on their budgets.

They also insisted that WRB has an advantage over concrete in that it can be removed faster in an emergency. Ever seen that done?

[scumdog]

Before the holidays the police were wanking on saying the low road toll was because the police had done an outstanding job with enforcement and campaigns.

Therefore the reason why the holiday road toll was so high is because the cops did a shit job over the break. You can't have it both ways rozzas!

I'm sure all those people killed on the roads will be well chuffed to know you're right....

[pete376403]

there is not always room for concrete or armco,the wrb are very thin,that is why wrb are used along the paekak.pukerua bay imho.

Was driving up that way yesterday, so had a good look. Between paekakariki and pukerua bay, the space between the white lines either side of the wrb is never less than approx 1 meter, and in places it's more. The concrete barrier between petone and ngauranga gets far less space.
Likewise between plimmerton and pukerua bay. However for this stretch the wrb has been placed in a depression (storm water drainange maybe?) which effectively lowers the height of the barrier.

Then there are other bits of weirdness - the big curve at the end of the straight north of waikanae has wrbs protecting the railway embankment but only posts(appear to be plastic) in the ground between the north and southbound lanes. WTF?

[riffer]

Then there are other bits of weirdness - the big curve at the end of the straight north of waikanae has wrbs protecting the railway embankment but only posts(appear to be plastic) in the ground between the north and southbound lanes. WTF?

The plastic posts are a psychological experiment. They've done similar on Grays Road. It's used where a WRB or concrete barrier would actually cause a lot more danger if someone hit them. By using the psychological barrier it's supposed to keep you in your lane without causing you to fly off the road if you actually hit it.

[Ocean1]

The plastic posts are a psychological experiment.

Well documented traffic calming technique. Justification on Grays rd was the same used to lower the limit there to 60k; it's the highest fatality per K road in the country.

Personally I find myself anything but calmed by the thought that I'm being required to travel at half the road's safe speed in an attempt to prevent accidents occuring at twice the limit or more.

[riffer]

Personally I find myself anything but calmed by the thought that I'm being required to travel at half the road's safe speed in an attempt to prevent accidents occuring at twice the limit or more.

Yes, it always induces a wry smile in me as I see the 60km/hr sign. Takes me back to going around there with my Grandfather in his old HQ wagon, with him insisting the road wasn't safe in a car for over 40 miles an hour but he could top out his B31 quite safely on it.

Perhaps the old bugger wasn't so mad after all.

[BMWST?]

Well documented traffic calming technique. Justification on Grays rd was the same used to lower the limit there to 60k; it's the highest fatality per K road in the country.

Personally I find myself anything but calmed by the thought that I'm being required to travel at half the road's safe speed in an attempt to prevent accidents occuring at twice the limit or more.

they make me want to go the other side of them just cos i can

[Ocean1]

Perhaps the old bugger wasn't so mad after all.

Bits of it were unsealed then?

I'd swap a wee punt on the Buell around there for one on a B31. Perhaps you'd be able to let the clutch fully out in 1st gear.

[Tink]

H


One thing that always surprises me is the amount of money we are prepared to spend on saving lives of road users. You quote a cost between $550 million to $1.1 billion to fit the barriers to 370 Km's of road. This, apperently, would save 90 lives per year. We are currently spending $300 million/year in policing the roads and $290 million in road upgrades. The total road deaths are yearly around 400. I do agree that this is 400 that should not have died. But at the same time we have close to 500 suicides a year and we spend $1.38 million/year in prevention... (I also 2 days ago had a discussion with someone in the know who told me that over 400 people died yearly in hospitals as a result of wrong medication being distributed...)

I therefore question the logic in spending millions per person saved on the road when there are areas where thousands would save the same amount of lives.

Personally I advocate for better driver/rider training, compulsory follow up training, regular medical tests to determine if a person is fit to drive/ride, instead of more draconian mesures and huge spending on barriers, signs, rumble lines and other measures that only contribute to take away responsibility from the individuals.

I wish I so wish New Zealand powers that be would listen... a good politician is one that can survive on an average persons wage, and still work as hard as that average man to make a great life for his/her family / country.

[Ocean1]

Does anyone know what it was that went throught the WRB on the River rd just north of Moonshine today?

Only, it looks like they've done some damn fine work, there and I'd like them to come back and finish the job.

[riffer]

Does anyone know what it was that went throught the WRB on the River rd just north of Moonshine today?

Only, it looks like they've done some damn fine work, there and I'd like them to come back and finish the job.

Oooh. Didn't see it when I rode by around 5.10pm. I'll have a look tomorrow.

[Pseudonym]

As it is a danger to motorcyclists shouldn’t our new Motorcycle Safety Committee be jumping up and down and having a blue fit about this?
That is why we pay them isn’t it?

[RDJ]

Very cheap. In NZ, you don't have to widen roads or anything. You just whack the fuckers in. The Minister of Transport and NZTA know that WRB are perfectly safe for everyone. They know this because there have been no studies done to suggest otherwise.

and of course... due to the 'no fault' philosophy underlining ACC, we cannot sue Ministers or public servants when deaths ensue due to their premeditated-stupidity-shading-into-negligence...

[RDJ]

I'm sure all those people killed on the roads will be well chuffed to know you're right....

Possibly it would be more helpful if you addressed the apparent contradiction. If we claim credit when we say we achieved "A" but we avoid responsibility and blame the victims when the result is not only "B" but the polar opposite of "B"... how would you, SD, suggest we reconcile these positions?