Something to think about now and before the next election!

[oldrider]

So here it is 2012 and last year we elected a "new" government .... did we do well?

Ponder this little exercise and think about it for the next three years and then ask yourself that same question before the "next" election!

Subject: Psychology 101

If you start with a cage containing five monkeys and inside the cage,
hang a banana on a string from the top and then you place a set of
stairs under the banana, before long a monkey will go to the stairs and climb
toward the banana.

As soon as he touches the stairs, you spray all the other monkeys
with cold water. After a while another monkey makes an attempt with
same result ... all the other monkeys are sprayed with cold water.
Pretty soon when another monkey tries to climb the stairs, the
other monkeys will try to prevent it.

Now, put the cold water away.

Remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one.
The new monkey sees the banana and attempts to climb the stairs.
To his shock, all of the other monkeys beat the crap out of him.
After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb
the stairs he will be assaulted.

Next, remove another of the original five monkeys, replacing it
with a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked.
The previous newcomer takes part in the punishment... with enthusiasm.

Then, replace a third original monkey with a new one, followed by
a fourth, then the fifth. Every time the newest monkey takes to
the stairs he is attacked. Most of the monkeys that are beating him up
have no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs.
Neither do they know why they are participating in the beating of the
newest monkey.

Finally, having replaced all of the original monkeys, none of
the remaining monkeys will have ever been sprayed with cold
water. Nevertheless, none of the monkeys will try to climb
the stairway for the banana.

Why, you ask?

Because in their minds...that is the way it has always been!

This is how parliament operates... and is why, from time to time, ALL OF THE MONKEYS NEED TO BE REPLACED AT THE SAME TIME!.

Apply this reasoning across the political spectrum and before the next election ask your self and each other .... will we do well again this time?. :thud:

[mashman]

heh... WTF are you talking about

[haydes55]

"taxes will drop" GST raised poorer people are hit harder.
Anti smacking bill passed, super city passed, Marine and Coastal Area Act 2010 allowing Maori to claim beach land with evidence and if deemed Tapu could restrict/eliminate access to beaches. Copyright (infringing File Sharing) Amendment Act 2011 (unconstitutionally, thus illegally passed under emergency law in the state of emergency following the chch earthquake).

All strongly opposed legislative changes passed by, or proposed and passed by the national government. Yet somehow everyone forgot that National wont listen to the majority of NZ and do whatever they want. The purpose of a democracy is the ability to vote out governments which aren't doing what you would like them to. Obviously New Zealanders have a 5 second memory?

[superman]

"taxes will drop" GST raised poorer people are hit harder.
Anti smacking bill passed, super city passed, Marine and Coastal Area Act 2010 allowing Maori to claim beach land with evidence and if deemed Tapu could restrict/eliminate access to beaches. Copyright (infringing File Sharing) Amendment Act 2011 (unconstitutionally, thus illegally passed under emergency law in the state of emergency following the chch earthquake).

All strongly opposed legislative changes passed by, or proposed and passed by the national government. Yet somehow everyone forgot that National wont listen to the majority of NZ and do whatever they want. The purpose of a democracy is the ability to vote out governments which aren't doing what you would like them to. Obviously New Zealanders have a 5 second memory?

I got a 2% tax cut. I appreciated it.

GST raised? Insentive to save more and spend less? Worked for me.

Super City means I can now use the Auckland city library without a $160 fee, saved lots of money.

Copyright Amendment Act 2011 - doesn't affect me.

Running NZ 101 - Keep the Maoris happy.

Anti smacking bill - doesn't affect me.

As you were. :msn-wink:

[jafar]

We got what we deserved, liars & cheats. Welcome back Nick Smith :devil2:

[slofox]

Obviously New Zealanders have a 5 second memory?

I realised that about 15 elections ago...

[MIXONE]

We got what we deserved, liars & cheats.
In the dictionary under Politician.

[schrodingers cat]

Sure, things could be better. Welcome to the world.

Please tell me who's government or political system you'd rather we had?

[Swoop]

..you start with a cage containing five monkeys...
Have you been looking at my Sig. line recently?:shifty:

[haydes55]

Sure, things could be better. Welcome to the world.

Please tell me who's government or political system you'd rather we had?

That's the thing. We would all like an idealistic structure. But that doesn't work in the real world, given the option of John Key or Phil Goff last election I'm glad John Key got in still just through lack of options haha.

[mashman]

Please tell me who's government or political system you'd rather we had?

I'd rather have mine :)

[oldrider]

Have you been looking at my Sig. line recently?:shifty:

Oh noooooo, smacked hand!!! :o .... sorrrrry I picked it up out of an American gold miners forum and thought might be appreciated over here!

Please accept my humble apologies! :spanking: Imitation is the finest form of flattery, they say! :rolleyes: Sigh, there's just no honourable way out of this is there! :no:

[oldrider]

Sure, things could be better. Welcome to the world.

Please tell me who's government or political system you'd rather we had?

Well, for me and you did ask, it would be Social credit's monetary system and Libertarianz general policies!

They might take a bit of tying together but if you use "swoop's" 5 monkey theory and clean the cage out first, we might just get somewhere!

[phill-k]

Super City means I can now use the Auckland city library without a $160 fee, saved lots of money.

Copyright Amendment Act 2011 - doesn't affect me.

Running NZ 101 - Keep the Maoris happy.

Anti smacking bill - doesn't affect me.

As you were. :msn-wink:

Your statements are indicative as to whats wrong in NZ today - if it doesn't effect me I don't give a shit mentality NZ'ers have developed in what was once a great caring and sharing society

[scott411]

"taxes will drop" GST raised poorer people are hit harder.
Anti smacking bill passed, super city passed, Marine and Coastal Area Act 2010 allowing Maori to claim beach land with evidence and if deemed Tapu could restrict/eliminate access to beaches. Copyright (infringing File Sharing) Amendment Act 2011 (unconstitutionally, thus illegally passed under emergency law in the state of emergency following the chch earthquake).

All strongly opposed legislative changes passed by, or proposed and passed by the national government. Yet somehow everyone forgot that National wont listen to the majority of NZ and do whatever they want. The purpose of a democracy is the ability to vote out governments which aren't doing what you would like them to. Obviously New Zealanders have a 5 second memory?

but labour is just as bad, the anti smacking bill was under their watch, they also ignored the referendum on tougher punishment on crime, we are stuck between to centrist party's that are fuck all apart from each other,

[superman]

Your statements are indicative as to whats wrong in NZ today - if it doesn't effect me I don't give a shit mentality NZ'ers have developed in what was once a great caring and sharing society

Hey I care about important things that don't affect me.

The Anti-smacking law, and the Copyright Amendment Bill don't particularly disturb me, perhaps the latter with the rushing in of such legislation. But other than that I don't find either law particularly unjust.

There are ways of disciplining a child without physical force, therefore why not in a country which has terrible child abuse statistics not say keep it clean all the time? Just as with training a dog, physical force isn't required. It's lazy training.

Copyright Amendment, well the Movie/TV/Music industry wanted something. Our laws on copyright were outdated given the new ways we can obtain such media. The law was rushed through which is my only real issue with it. Other than that it should be media moguls rights to somehow punish people who illegally obtain the media they have created.

[schrodingers cat]

Well, for me and you did ask, it would be Social credit's monetary system and Libertarianz general policies!

They might take a bit of tying together but if you use "swoop's" 5 monkey theory and clean the cage out first, we might just get somewhere!

Thanks - a straight answer on KB is pretty rare!

The major problem as I see it with the 5 Monkey clean out is what (who) fills the vacuum?

And having a crew ready to fill the void from the goodness of their hearts? I think thats called a coup. V popular in the banana republics and hotter countries.

[puddytat]

Well I think the next three years may be some of the most devisive & unruly since the 50's.....
alot of folk are getting organised to take the Govt. on directly over some of their policy,& I mean directly.......
Meanwhile i'll be getting my shit together for when it hits the fan & it all turns to custard.

[oneofsix]

Hey I care about important things that don't affect me.

The Anti-smacking law, and the Copyright Amendment Bill don't particularly disturb me, perhaps the latter with the rushing in of such legislation. But other than that I don't find either law particularly unjust.

There are ways of disciplining a child without physical force, therefore why not in a country which has terrible child abuse statistics not say keep it clean all the time? Just as with training a dog, physical force isn't required. It's lazy training.

Copyright Amendment, well the Movie/TV/Music industry wanted something. Our laws on copyright were outdated given the new ways we can obtain such media. The law was rushed through which is my only real issue with it. Other than that it should be media moguls rights to somehow punish people who illegally obtain the media they have created.

Ok so it wasn't a case of doesn't affect me so I don't care it is more a case of accepting the lies.

The anti-smacking law was meant to help prevent child abuse, s indicated in your reply, but instead does nothing for real abuse and diverts resources to bad discipline. Surely bad discipline would be better handle by better support for parents, oh shit thats right the realization hit "the experts" recently.

Copyright was meant to protect and encourage originality and creativity, the copywrite amendment protects over pricing and limit releasing by the media moguls. It stymies originality and creativity and artists have to 'buy' their success by selling their souls to the moguls.

Dig a bit deeper than the political spin.

[mashman]

Well, for me and you did ask, it would be Social credit's monetary system and Libertarianz general policies!

I still, even after reading the website, following the links to the original creator, following the links from there to more theory, I still don't see how this works in practical terms in regards to valuing jobs i.e. CEO gets more than a bin man, Doctor gets more than a teacher etc... who decides who's effort has more worth than someone elses? How would our economy work in regards to the rest of the world economy? Serious questions that I can't find straight answers to.


There are ways of disciplining a child without physical force, therefore why not in a country which has terrible child abuse statistics not say keep it clean all the time? Just as with training a dog, physical force isn't required. It's lazy training.

You should change your name to supernanny :)

[oldrider]

I still, even after reading the website, following the links to the original creator, following the links from there to more theory, I still don't see how this works in practical terms in regards to valuing jobs i.e. CEO gets more than a bin man, Doctor gets more than a teacher etc... who decides who's effort has more worth than someone elses? How would our economy work in regards to the rest of the world economy? Serious questions that I can't find straight answers to.

Question 1. Are you not at all familiar with organisations such as "Hay" (sp) associates, it is difficult but not rocket science to size and evaluate jobs!

Of course this is probably another area that could benefit from the 5 monkey treatment too! (there is probably no end to that!)

Question 2. How would our economy work in regards to the rest of the world economy?

That's a good question and always an impediment to progressive discussion on the subject but NZ didn't collapse when the Lange government went "no nuclear" did it and it certainly pissed the big boys off didn't it!

I guess there would be a period of adjustment as the rest of the world caught on and up, monkey see monkey do!

Don't you think it would be worth it to see the (real) world 1% kicked into touch? We have led the world in the past, we can do it again! :niceone:

[mashman]

Question 1. Are you not at all familiar with organisations such as "Hay" (sp) associates, it is difficult but not rocket science to size and evaluate jobs!

Of course this is probably another area that could benefit from the 5 monkey treatment too! (there is probably no end to that!)

Question 2. How would our economy work in regards to the rest of the world economy?

That's a good question and always an impediment to progressive discussion on the subject but NZ didn't collapse when the Lange government went "no nuclear" did it and it certainly pissed the big boys off didn't it!

I guess there would be a period of adjustment as the rest of the world caught on and up, monkey see monkey do!

Don't you think it would be worth it to see the (real) world 1% kicked into touch? We have led the world in the past, we can do it again! :niceone:

heh, I get the idea behind the job sizing, but the value being assigned is what concerns me. Are politicians still going to be valued twice that of teachers etc...? After all, isn't that what the 99% are concerned with? irrelevant concern perhaps? 8 hours should be 8 hours irrespective of position/status etc...

:laugh:@impediment... aye, tis only an impediment if people make it so though eh?

Dunno about the Lange no nuclear thang... I would imagine a population of 4 million is pretty much moot in regards to affecting world economy.

That's rhetorical question :laugh:. As someone said in another thread, think globally act locally... yup I agree NZ can lead the world in a better direction...

[Clockwork]

As far as democracy goes, what worries me is that modern governments are busy signing us up to international agreements and treaties that are seriously impacting our sovereign rights to the democratic process. I suspect this is why politicians continue to ignore popular opinion in matters such as the anti-smacking legislation, intellectual property rights laws and the selling off of national assets. Quite honestly I doubt we have the ability to changes these laws back now regardless of how many voters may want to.

[oldrider]

As far as democracy goes, what worries me is that modern governments are busy signing us up to international agreements and treaties that are seriously impacting our sovereign rights to the democratic process. I suspect this is why politicians continue to ignore popular opinion in matters such as the anti-smacking legislation, intellectual property rights laws and the selling off of national assets. Quite honestly I doubt we have the ability to changes these laws back now regardless of how many voters may want to.

Hmmmm, good post, perfect example of the 5 monkey syndrome and the need to clean out the cage! :eek5:

[superman]

Ok so it wasn't a case of doesn't affect me so I don't care it is more a case of accepting the lies.

The anti-smacking law was meant to help prevent child abuse, s indicated in your reply, but instead does nothing for real abuse and diverts resources to bad discipline. Surely bad discipline would be better handle by better support for parents, oh shit thats right the realization hit "the experts" recently.

Copyright was meant to protect and encourage originality and creativity, the copywrite amendment protects over pricing and limit releasing by the media moguls. It stymies originality and creativity and artists have to 'buy' their success by selling their souls to the moguls.

Dig a bit deeper than the political spin.

Working for families, Plunket, cheap child care etc already occur in NZ helping to providing a 'top of the cliff' approach to helping parents. I see physical abuse of children far more as a cultural thing, it's a law put in place to let people know it's not a correct form of discipline. It's trying to bring a change to the culture where physical abuse of children is regarded as okay. A law such as the anti-smacking one does not pull large resources (5 prosecutions in the last 2 years), only those caught physically abusing their children will be put through the court, as they should be.

Copyright already protects intellectual property. The new amendment just provides a way to enforce those caught illegally obtaining media under copyright protection. No one needs to buy success, or sell to a mogul. To do so doesn't help a true artist who aspires to be original, creative etc. The only reason to sell to a media company is for lots of money, and fame. Neither of which really help an artist with their creations.

[porky]

So what you are saying is forget the hose.....lace the bananas with 1080....

[SPman]

Copyright already protects intellectual property. The new amendment just provides a way to enforce those caught illegally obtaining media under copyright protection. No one needs to buy success, or sell to a mogul. To do so doesn't help a true artist who aspires to be original, creative etc. The only reason to sell to a media company is for lots of money, and fame. Neither of which really help an artist with their creations.One thing I wonder about with regard to the ridiculous penalties invoked.......how is "illegally" downloading a copy of a song from the net, so much more horrendous, than say, shoplifting a copy of the same tune from a CD store..........

[mashman]

One thing I wonder about with regard to the ridiculous penalties invoked.......how is "illegally" downloading a copy of a song from the net, so much more horrendous, than say, shoplifting a copy of the same tune from a CD store..........

at least shoplifters make an effort to go to the store? perhaps shop lifters can't afford internet connectivity and are therefore less likely to pay a fine?

[oldrider]

The idea behind this thread was to cast aside the current incumbents and for us to discuss and think about what it would be like if it was "good"!

I spend a lot of time shifting the junk around in my shed, when what it really needs is a total clear out .... now "that" would be good!

The problem is I get attached to some of the junk and think it might come in handy one day! ... What a load of bullshit!

I had stuff that I had saved from when I was an apprentice and never used, have been carting around for years and had to "pay" to dump it the other day!

What sort of "fail" do you call that!

Parliament is a bit like my shed, it needs a periodical "clean-out" and the 5 monkey theory sort of fits the bill.

We just hang on to these pricks for all the wrong reasons and we (or our children, grandchildren etc.) "pay" for it in the end!

Perhaps we should just bight the bullet and clean the shed out periodically! :kick:

[schrodingers cat]

Because we're all amateur politicians we all know about politics and what it actually takes.

Just like because we've all been to school we know about teaching and having watched hours of sport we're experts or that too.

The current political format does not exclude you from fielding a fresh team, quite the opposite in fact.

So:
Who will replace the 'usless buggers' we have currently?
What are their policies - on EVERY issue
How will they make things better?
Actually - define 'better'. How will they not make things worse?
What is their experience and suitability for the job?

And, as I asked before, which country is your model. Who is doing it better and why?

Take it to the polls.

[mashman]

And, as I asked before, which country is your model. Who is doing it better and why?

Take it to the polls.

None of them. I think that's the point, or at least one of them, of the thread.

Now you're takin the piss.

[schrodingers cat]

Maybe it doesn't get much better than this...

[mashman]

The idea behind this thread was to cast aside the current incumbents and for us to discuss and think about what it would be like if it was "good"!

I spend a lot of time shifting the junk around in my shed, when what it really needs is a total clear out .... now "that" would be good!

The problem is I get attached to some of the junk and think it might come in handy one day! ... What a load of bullshit!

I had stuff that I had saved from when I was an apprentice and never used, have been carting around for years and had to "pay" to dump it the other day!

What sort of "fail" do you call that!

Parliament is a bit like my shed, it needs a periodical "clean-out" and the 5 monkey theory sort of fits the bill.

We just hang on to these pricks for all the wrong reasons and we (or our children, grandchildren etc.) "pay" for it in the end!

Perhaps we should just bight the bullet and clean the shed out periodically! :kick:

I went for a dump about 3 years ago and came to a similar conclusion. If it was "good", we would be able to build what we wanted because it needed to be built (Christchurch for starters). People would be fed, watered and entertained (cigs, xbox, booze, whatever poison etc...) to a degree where they wouldn't feel the need to take other people's stuff or suffer from any form of financial pressure. Anything other than that would be gravy.

As individuals looking out for individuals, or friendly groups of individuals, it isn't working. If people can't "make it" on their own, they shouldn't be allowed to live or shouldn't receive as much as anyone else because they are obviously less worthy being the prevailing ignorant attitude.

It would be great to have $10 million in spare change to be able to buy the expertise and advertising required to reach every single person in NZ with a well thought through brand spankin new idea that people won't just file under the red carpet or behind the green door.

How would DSC + Libertarian work in practice in regards to day to day living? What does it answer? and in no more than 500 words :rofl:

[mashman]

Maybe it doesn't get much better than this...

ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaa... you might be right, but I have my reservations.

[willytheekid]

:facepalm:...not ANOTHER political thread


The Govnt looks after its own...simple as that!, they look after there own pay packs, their mates, and the corporates and rich pricks who "donated" to their party.
...end of story!

When corporate funding of individual polliticians & parties is banned, and HUGE "donations" from party "backers" are also banned, we might be off to a good start.
BUT it is the system that needs changing...not the party!

Why?...because each party is really the same!!!
...they all lie pre election...they then do what their "Financial backers" want, NOT what the NZ people want or need.
And every elected partie has done the same thing over the years...screwed us! for their own gain or their mates...THEN gave themselves a very speedy payrise for doing so (fastest bill through NZ govn't EVERY time, EVERY party...their own payrise!....that say's it all really!)

I agree with OldRider....BUT...I believe the monkeys AND the dirty shit filled cage need to be thrown away and replaced.


I gave up on pollitics years ago...getting repeatedly pelted by shit flinging monkeys gets old fast!
http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/EXID8616/images/monkeys_fling_poo1.jpg

[puddytat]

Seems to me that we're being set up to fail basically .....when we have secret deals being made that will directly effect us all like the TPP & when these deals will become international law, they will supercede our own National laws & allow companies to "sue" us for not being able to make money. We have countries like Japan & Israel who continually flout international laws with absolutely no consequences. Plus we must not forget that when certain industries are granted the right to do what they like, it sets a precedent which means we can not stop others from doing the same or if we try, we have multinationals who will tie us up in knots in international courts at a huge expense to us . Corporate Feudalism anyone?
We have the continued dumbing down effect of the media,the continuing attempt by Murdoch et al to to control what we see, hear, do,think(or not) & is now intalks with the Govt. to get their piece of pie from "Free to view" t.v. Why is it that John Key has never been on National Radio....'cause they ask questions which he isnt competent enough to handle.
We have Govts worldwide introducing more laws to control US, while they cant get their shit together to do anything about the people who are responsible for the mess.
We have a third of our nation who are so dispossesd, disinfranchished, depressed, dumb that they cant even be bothered using the one right that can make a difference....vote.
I bet if we all voted them out as a protest,they would invoke martial law.
It was this continued "Growth" at all costs that got us into this mess,why will it get us out of it?
When we have a respected fellow like David Attenborough making dire predictions about our future, we get a smear campaign in the media about him using a different polar bear cub to discredit him & deflect the message that he's pushing.FFS!!

Honestly oldrider, I think this a really important topic you raise, but I think that there is only a small percentage of our society that ever go looking further than what they see on the 6 oclock news , & who are able to get their heads around or even contemplate logically what the other side is saying without getting into the kneejerk reaction mode of I will only vote/think Red , Green , Blue, Pink.....& I feel that because of this dogma, we will never be able to make even the simplest of changes to our society which will be necessary to ensure our continued survival past the end of the century. I wish we could.

But no...we wont. I think that at this rate we are heading for collapse of societies worldwide.But instead of being proactive which would entail us doin something sooner rather than later,the Govts are taking an easier approach which is to ignore the big issues of pollution, climate change, overpopulation,species extiction (possibly including ourselves) & are letting our own greed & selfishness dig our own grave while all the time setting up more laws to control us when it happens......people world wide unbeknowingly to the majority, have been losing more rights & freedoms in the last 10 years than since we were granted the right to vote.'Tis only in the last 100 odd years people, have we had this right. We need to be careful that we dont lose that.

[avgas]

This is how parliament operates... and is why, from time to time, ALL OF THE MONKEYS NEED TO BE REPLACED AT THE SAME TIME!.

Apply this reasoning across the political spectrum and before the next election ask your self and each other .... will we do well again this time?. :thud:
Sorry for stating the obvious. But your analogy makes it a perfect line up for the NZ Govt.

If all the Monkeys are in the cage is some form of amusement, and they are not doing what you want. Why keep a cage of monkeys?
Who is still amused with the Beehive?
Replacing the monkeys won't change the fact that you have just wasted time MAINTAINING caged animals.

[avgas]

Maybe it doesn't get much better than this...
The unthinking majority seem to think so. Ignorance is bliss you see.

[puddytat]

Maybe it doesn't get much better than this...

Honestly, I dont think it will .And because its so good now its even harder than ever for people to make the necessary changes which will inevitably be required to live sustainably on our finite planet.

[schrodingers cat]

The unthinking majority seem to think so. Ignorance is bliss you see.

On the whole I try to ignore the things I can't change. Otherwise my life is misery and nothing has changed. What you are calling ignorance can also be informed choice. A choice that not all agree with.

Not all of us have the passion for revolution. However, for a revolution to work, it needs the support of the masses.

So sell it to me.

[SMOKEU]

I will vote for whoever promises to:

1. Decriminalise possession of cannabis and cultivation for personal use.

2. Crack down hard on crime, especially violence, vehicle theft and burglary. Make it harder for criminals to get released on parole and increase prison sentences dramatically.

3. Rebuild the driver licensing system to reduce the number of muppets on the roads. Make drivers licenses expire every 2 years with a compulsory theory test to renew it.

4. Make "life skills" a compulsory part of high school education. Teach kids how to manage their money, the basics of the legal system etc.

I know that I'm dreaming :angry:

[willytheekid]

I bet if we all voted them out as a protest,they would invoke martial law.


Nope!...sorry can't do that!, they removed the option for a "Vote of No Confidence"...(check your voting papers etc)...its not their anymore:eek5:

WHY??...because this option is to dangerous!...it give US "the people", to much power and say in how our country is run...hence...they got rid of it! (But they did it quietly...of course)

...don't ya love living in a democracy with a TRUE democratic voting system <_<...well...THEIR version of a democracy

Now get back to the feilds SERVE!

note:
"The 20th Century Italian thinkers Vilfredo Pareto and Gaetano Mosca (independently) argued that democracy was illusory, and served only to mask the reality of elite rule. Indeed, they argued that elite oligarchy is the unbendable law of human nature, due largely to the apathy and division of the masses (as opposed to the drive, initiative and unity of the elites), and that democratic institutions would do no more than shift the exercise of power from oppression to manipulation"

.....And yet we still think it works for "all" :facepalm:

[puddytat]

On the whole I try to ignore the things I can't change. Otherwise my life is misery and nothing has changed. What you are calling ignorance can also be informed choice. A choice that not all agree with.

Not all of us have the passion for revolution. However, for a revolution to work, it needs the support of the masses.

So sell it to me.

We're in negotiatations with a russian dude at the moment, what do you want? AK 47,RPG,;)

[mashman]

So even if we get to run our own country, or get people in place that care enough to make the big decisions in regards to telling the rest of the world to fuck off, we will be held to ransom by trade agreements and pieces of paper that NZers never voted for, sorry voted for, in order to keep their economy growing so that foreign companies can take more money out of the country than they put in which in turn causes the govt to borrow from overseas entities.

Then you're going to have to come up with a system that will work irrespective of the demands of the rest of the world. Anyone have one in their back pocket?

[mashman]

We're in negotiatations with a russian dude at the moment, what do you want? AK 47,RPG,;)

Can I have a tank please

[SMOKEU]

So even if we get to run our own country, or get people in place that care enough to make the big decisions in regards to telling the rest of the world to fuck off, we will be held to ransom by trade agreements and pieces of paper that NZers never voted for, sorry voted for, in order to keep their economy growing so that foreign companies can take more money out of the country than they put in which in turn causes the govt to borrow from overseas entities.

Then you're going to have to come up with a system that will work irrespective of the demands of the rest of the world. Anyone have one in their back pocket?

In a few short years I wouldn't be surprised if NZ turns into an extension of China.

[mashman]

In a few short years I wouldn't be surprised if NZ turns into an extension of China.

Better start teaching mandarin at school then... no point leavin the kids behind, somebody think about the children

[mashman]

So sell it to me.

Free Local NZ Economy: You will be a slave for your country 5 hours a day, 4 days a week. In return you get to live free of charge in a society with exceptional healthcare, top notch education and next to no crime.

[puddytat]

In a few short years I wouldn't be surprised if NZ turns into an extension of China.

Events are going to overtake us Fella....things like food, water shortages, climate issues dont respect borders.Its something we are all going to have to get our heads around.When we start talking about others having more rights than some to resources we are really going to be in trouble. The thing is with capatalism is that by buying resources you are giving more rights to some & ownership.Desperate people have no choice & have nothing to lose. They generally dont die quietly.

[avgas]

Then you're going to have to come up with a system that will work irrespective of the demands of the rest of the world. Anyone have one in their back pocket?

Nah I am thinking we try "Anarchy and Chaos" for a while.
Where people have to deal with people, and you have to provide something substantial to be taken seriously.

Actually while your right and wrong. There will be a void. But whomever fills that void will be wary to keep the public on their sides. Will will need to repeat this every last few hundred years.

As mentioned earlier, you could replace the monkeys. Or you could just spray em all with water for good measure every now and then.

As a white, semi-intelligent, hardworking, family orientated, male in NZ. I have very little to lose by promoting a headless chicken country.

Now if I were Non-"NZ-Euro", female, lazy, abusive, demanding of others....... I stand to lose a lot under a system of pure trade. Instead of the "state/simon says" system. For I would have to equal my peers to be heard.

My request is simple. Let me make my own informed decisions. Let the world decide if we are worth their time.
If you want to be the government, do what the people say, be transparent with us and you can keep your employment.
If I wanted things sugar-coated.......I would have remained at the intellectual level of a 5 year old. Slaves do not need to be smart.

[avgas]

Better start teaching mandarin at school then... no point leavin the kids behind, somebody think about the children
While this is not a dumb idea.
Most of the business parts of China acknowledge that Business English is required.

[mashman]

Nah I am thinking we try "Anarchy and Chaos" for a while.
Where people have to deal with people, and you have to provide something substantial to be taken seriously.


Sounds too much like the current system to me.



My request is simple. Let me make my own informed decisions. Let the world decide if we are worth their time.

Yup, exactly like the current system.

You're a status quo'ist

[schrodingers cat]

Events are going to overtake us Fella....things like food, water shortages, climate issues dont respect borders.Its something we are all going to have to get our heads around.When we start talking about others having more rights than some to resources we are really going to be in trouble. The thing is with capatalism is that by buying resources you are giving more rights to some & ownership.Desperate people have no choice & have nothing to lose. They generally dont die quietly.

Correct. Allocation of resources will always be an issue.
Fresh (drinkable) water esp will become a global issue. This will be exerbated by climate change.

As a country with a temperate climate and a gross producer of food New Zealand is very fortunate.

Globally the greatest issue facing the human race is the amount of us.
It maybe true that if wealth were distributed equally it is possible to feed etc many more than 9 billion currently alive but you have to ask why bother?

[avgas]

Sounds too much like the current system to me.
Yup, exactly like the current system.
You're a status quo'ist
Huh?
Mine is way cheaper to start with.

[puddytat]

According to David Attenborough......at our present level of 7 billion ravenous Human,at the rate that we are using resources we really need 1 & a 1/2 planets to sustain this "Growth'' mantra at its present level . He suggests that if we totally stop our growth in both population & consuming resources & in grenhouse gases we MAY be able to stop the looming catastrophy.But,if we continue as we are we hav'nt a shit show of avoiding the greatest threat to our species in our evolution & he ,the quietly spoken man he is, is predicting it may well be by the end of this century. So much for progress huh.
I saw a very interesting programme on ,yup you guessed it TVNZ7 (no wonder they want to close it down eh) about some geezer who has been studying the subject, that on a biological level our species is displaying the same growth characteristics as CANCERS.....an organism that attacks its host & eventually kills it, & its self.

What I think fucks me off & many others I think,is that most of our major problems have really nothing to do with politics & or capatalism ,apart from causing most of them. I personally think that it is the politicians themselves who will make the problem worse not better & if we sit around waiting for them to do something then it'll just be a clusterfuck. I like the idea of taking a class action lawsuit against them for gross incompetency against humanity.
There have been 4 presidents in the US since the 1st Kyoto agreement. All have been going blal,blah,blah about doing something about it.None has actually achieved anything other than passing the buck. Just like here.

[Swoop]

Parliament is a bit like my shed, it needs a periodical "clean-out" and the 5 monkey theory sort of fits the bill.

Perhaps we should just bight the bullet and clean the shed out periodically!:kick:
Quite true, BUT we also need to kick out the parasites that infest Wellington's Circular Wind Tunnel along with the politicians. The assistants, researchers, PA's, etc that are manipulating behind the scenes are equally as dangerous.

Also, getting rid of 60% of the cages would be a good start.

[slofox]

...on a biological level our species is displaying the same growth characteristics as CANCERS.....an organism that attacks its host & eventually kills it, & its self.

.

I've been telling everyone exactly that for over a quarter of a century. So for nobody has taken any notice.

[SPman]

What I think fucks me off & many others I think,is that most of our major problems have really nothing to do with politics & or capatalism ,apart from causing most of them. I personally think that it is the politicians themselves who will make the problem worse not better & if we sit around waiting for them to do something then it'll just be a clusterfuck. I like the idea of taking a class action lawsuit against them for gross incompetency against humanity.
There have been 4 presidents in the US since the 1st Kyoto agreement. All have been going blal,blah,blah about doing something about it.None has actually achieved anything other than passing the buck. Just like here.

Come on baby, eat the rich,
Put the bite on the son of a bitch,
Don't mess up, don't you give me no switch…
C'mon baby and eat the rich,
C'mon baby and eat the rich…
C'mon honey, here’s your supper,
C'mon baby, bite that sucka!…

............

[MisterD]

According to David Attenborough......at our present level of 7 billion ravenous Human,at the rate that we are using resources we really need 1 & a 1/2 planets to sustain this "Growth'' mantra at its present level .

Most of the West is looking at population decline, certainly Europe has a birth rate of about 1.6, so the challenge is really to get the rest of the world to that point asap.

I suggest turning of the aid tap to Africa, shutting the door until they've finished killing each other (or at least run out of the bullets we sold them and are back to pointy sticks), and that should give us the breathing space to get China and India to the Western level.

[puddytat]

I've been telling everyone exactly that for over a quarter of a century. So for nobody has taken any notice.

Well most folk dont listen to grumpy old bastards do they.....they wont listen to me either. :laugh:The thing is no one likes bad news or info that bursts their wee bubble so they get defensive & usually call you a cynic or depressing. Well I cant help that if the facts are depressing, & I think thats why people hate anyone that tells them .....like conservationists & the like. So they'll listen to anyone who talks about warm fluffies or offers them a packet of chewing gum( or their mate with the ute & hot missus).From my observations over the years the most hated "other" demographic in this country other than Asians & cheeky darkies would be the planet lovers & someone who has socialistic tendencies:facepalm:
Politics are really quite devisive I feel.....like that oldrider dude said, I reckon a mix of libertarianistas (the philosophy of which covers both the left & the right) or a group of highly paid professionals working at our request to implement referenda on all issues. This group could be appointed by either supreme court judges or a panel of suitably qualified experts in those fields maybe? Of course we'd have to make civics part of the curriculm & try & instill how necessary it is & how rewarding it can be in many other ways than financial ,to be a member of the society that we are all part of.

[slofox]

Well most folk dont listen to grumpy old bastards do they.....

But but but - I wasn't a grumpy old bastard when I started!

[mashman]

Huh?
Mine is way cheaper to start with.

Yeah, but that's before tax, GST and associated ACC levies :)... not to mention the cleanup costs.

[oldrider]

Another gem I picked up on another forum, fits this thread I think:


Dead Horse Theory

– The Tribal wisdom of the Indians, passed on from generation to generation, says that, “When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.”

However, in government, education, and in corporate America (and NZ) more advanced strategies are often employed, such as:

1. Buying a stronger whip.
2. Changing riders.
3. Appointing a committee to study the horse.
4. Arranging to visit other countries to see how other cultures ride dead horses.
5. Lowering the standards so that the dead horses can be included.
6. Re-classifying the dead horse as living-impaired.
7. Hiring outside contractors to ride the dead horse.
8. Harnessing several dead horses together to increase speed.
9. Providing additional funding and/or training to increase dead horse’s performance.
10. Doing a productivity study to see if lighter riders would improve the dead horse’s performance.
11. Declaring that the dead horse does not have to be fed, it is less costly, carries lower overhead and, therefore, contributes substantially more to the bottom line of the economy than do some other horses.
12. Rewriting the expected performance requirements for all horses.
And of course….
13. Promoting the dead horse to a supervisory position.


Funny how easily little old New Zealand fits into these theories like a hand into a glove!

Having ended up in a managers position (that no one else would take on at the time)

I often wondered about "promotion beyond competence" or promotion by the "dead horse theory"!

Oh well, better to try and fail than never to have tried at all .... I feel comfortable with my own contribution but as Robbie Burns the poet wrote:

Would that God, the gift to give us, to see ourselves as others see us! .... Guess I will never really know the truth of that! :done:

[Bikemad]

13. Promoting the dead horse to a supervisory position.

trouble is that the dead horse is already in charge........

[avgas]

Yeah, but that's before tax, GST and associated ACC levies :)... not to mention the cleanup costs.
All these only exist WITH a government.