Dangerous roads, are we playing the blame game?

[The Singing Chef]

I am running through ideas to send as a story to newspapers and magazines detailing the amount of blame we put onto road conditions, and here is a small piece I drafted up just to get an idea of what I would send. Constructive criticism is welcomed.

Thanks,

Matt

New Zealand's roads have been reffered to as "The killing fields", In 2010 our death toll sat at 375 deaths, with 2007 being our hardest hitting year within the last 5 years, at a whopping 421 deaths on our roads.
The New Zealand Transport Agency claims that out of those deaths, around 170 are speed related with the rest being blamed on dangerous roads, driver inattention and alchohol and drug related incidents.

Studies show that high risk drivers along with young drivers between the ages of 20 - 24 years old who are at fault in a crash, account for 58% of all serious crashes on New Zealand roads.
Taking into account the goverments assesment on the roads, detailing such areas as a strech of state highway between Parnell and Western Springs which has seen 20 serious crashes and the lives of 2 people over the past 5 years.

There are many other roads considered to be dangerous that are scattered throughout New Zealand although the majority of them are in the Greater Auckland region. The LTSA who is reponsible for determining how dangerous a road is uses the following factors on deciding
how to class the road, crashes, crashes per km and number of deaths.

Why is it that these roads are labelled as dangerous, and that there is such a high number of crashes on these particular streches of road? Why is it, that so many crashes can be blamed on these dangerous roads and the goverment only looks to fix the the immediate cause, instead of the root of the problem?

You could say that pot-holes and blind corners could attribute to it, that no median barriers could also be a cause. You could also go so far as to say that the road surface isn't the correct type for tyres, and you could also say that enviromental conditions such as black ice or off camber corners are to blame. But all that really points to is a lack of driver awareness and/or ability.
No matter where you are, there will never be a perfect road surface to drive on, there will never be full visibility throughout all of the corners and livestock and other factors will always come into play.

What really stands out is the ability of road users to adapt to an ever changing enviroment. As a motorcyclist, I am subject to a much larger possibility of hitting something that will cause me to fall off, whether it be a possum, pot hole or slick of diesel, I have to constantly adjust my riding accordingly to the road conditions so as to not come to a potentially fatal end.
I believe the cause of this problem is first of all the driver licensing system as at present, though sometime in the near future the NZTA are looking to make it harder to pass all of the test which means that drivers have to do more than simply drive around the block, and park into a box.
Currently the tests that you must complete to attain a motorcycle license are as follows; pass a questionarre with 25 multi-choice questions on it which you are allowed a total of 3 incorrect answers and pass a very basic handling skills test which include stopping and starting, turning a simple corner, stopping in a box and doing a small offset sone weave.

Once passed you are then allowed onto the road, where there are a plethora of potential hazards along every strech of road. It comes down to a matter of luck and trial and error, where as if you were taught the skills actually needed to ride on the road, there would be a significantly lower accident rate among motorcyclists.
I believe another contributing factor to the large accident rate is the ability for a learner and restricted driver to drive any kind of car they like, which is usually a souped up skyline or a car of relative style, where the power available to the still new driver is far above that of their ability and that is witnessed in the number of high speed accidents where you have many who lose control of their vehicle and either flatten a pedestrian or wrap themselves around a power pole adding either 1 or 5 numbers to the death toll.

Back onto road conditions, what I have detailed should give you a small understanding on first of all, why young drivers are in the highest death toll statistics and why road conditions shouldn't be to blame but the drivers ability to adapt and change their driving style to the conditions.
It does involve actually looking at the road and surroundings, and assesing them as you drive along the road. Looking for potential hazards and changing road conditions which will mean that drivers can't be fiddling with radios, cell phones, cigarettes and those screaming children in the back. Making sure you are well rested and awake is also a crucial factor in being able to drive at 100% of your ability.

The goverments plan for the future of many roads is to make them as easy and care free to drive on as humanly possible, now that may sound like a good idea at first and it may very well stunt the rise of fatalities on our roads. But all that will do is dull our senses even more untill we are driving on auto pilot, where at the time of any danger or hazard arises, we simply don't have the tuned reactions to be able to deal with the situation properly and safely.

So is the New Zealand goverment simply playing the blame game? dealing to the easier and quicker yet less efficent method? It certainly seems so, and it is a chilling thought to think about how much our goverment really cares about our safety and driving standards, where they now focus on going a mere 5km/h over the posted speed limit where many speedos have a 10% inaccuracy which equates to roughly 10km/h over or under the limit, is that really making our roads dangerous or should be looking at other causes as to our death toll?

[James Deuce]

Good stuff. Make the "driver" label "drivers and riders". Acknowledge that the majority of road users have a skill defecit.

[The Singing Chef]

Good stuff. Make the "driver" label "drivers and riders". Acknowledge that the majority of road users have a skill defecit.

Cheers, will edit after a beer. :woohoo:

[FJRider]

Some places in New Zealands roading system are given Black Spot "status" ... because a lot of vehicles crash there. If enough idiots ride/drive over ANY given road ... odd's are ... a "Black Spot" will appear.

Funny how there is so many "Black Spots" is the Auckland area ... Coincidence maybe ... :whistle:

[SMOKEU]

Studies show that high risk drivers along with young drivers between the ages of 20 - 24 years old who are at fault in a crash, account for 58% of all serious crashes on New Zealand roads.


Aside from young drivers aged between 20 - 24, who are the "high risk" drivers?

A significant factor in our road toll is the fact that our roads are bad by international standards. Now I'm not saying that bad roads are an excuse for bad driving, but good roads allow more room for error than bad roads. Humans are not perfect, and even the best of us will make the occasional error. In South Africa, the open roads are much better in general than NZ. I have travelled thousands of kms on South African roads, and the roads there are much wider than our roads, and are in a much better condition overall. There are huge concrete barriers to separate oncoming traffic, and very long multi laned motorways are common over there. I have driven at the 120kmh speed limit on long trips, and found that it's quite boring as the roads are so well engineered.

However, poor driver education is the main factor in our road toll I believe. Most NZ drivers lack the ability to even indicate properly at a roundabout, and if they can't even master such a basic task, then why are they even allowed to operate a motor vehicle on a public road? You wouldn't let your mate who can't even ride a 50cc scooter to ride an R1, so why are we letting these people on our roads? I have also noticed being a passenger in cars, that many people brake reasonably hard mid corner as a matter of their daily routine instead of doing all their braking before the corner. It's this lack of education that is killing us because few people actually know how to drive properly. We should have compulsory driver education in high schools, and all drivers should be made to do a practical driving test as well as a theory test every 2 - 3 years. People tend to get complacent after they have been driving for a long time, and they think that just because they haven't had a crash in 10+ years that they are a good driver.

[The Singing Chef]

Some places in New Zealands roading system are given Black Spot "status" ... because a lot of vehicles crash there. If enough idiots ride/drive over ANY given road ... odd's are ... a "Black Spot" will appear.

Funny how there is so many "Black Spots" is the Auckland area ... Coincidence maybe ... :whistle:
Thought it would be funny to go into that in more detail...

Also, yes if enough ditzy idiots drive/ride over even the simplest of roads there will be accidents (take the Auckland motorways for example, every morning on the traffic report, there is at least one crash going in the same bloody direction) Muppets

[superman]

Excellencio!

[The Singing Chef]

Aside from young drivers aged between 20 - 24, who are the "high risk" drivers?

A significant factor in our road toll is the fact that our roads are bad by international standards. Now I'm not saying that bad roads are an excuse for bad driving, but good roads allow more room for error than bad roads. Humans are not perfect, and even the best of us will make the occasional error. In South Africa, the open roads are much better in general than NZ. I have travelled thousands of kms on South African roads, and the roads there are much wider than our roads, and are in a much better condition overall. There are huge concrete barriers to separate oncoming traffic, and very long multi laned motorways are common over there. I have driven at the 120kmh speed limit on long trips, and found that it's quite boring as the roads are so well engineered.

However, poor driver education is the main factor in our road toll I believe. Most NZ drivers lack the ability to even indicate properly at a roundabout, and if they can't even master such a basic task, then why are they even allowed to operate a motor vehicle on a public road? You wouldn't let your mate who can't even ride a 50cc scooter to ride an R1, so why are we letting these people on our roads? I have also noticed being a passenger in cars, that many people brake reasonably hard mid corner as a matter of their daily routine instead of doing all their braking before the corner. It's this lack of education that is killing us because few people actually know how to drive properly. We should have compulsory driver education in high schools, and all drivers should be made to do a practical driving test as well as a theory test every 2 - 3 years. People tend to get complacent after they have been driving for a long time, and they think that just because they haven't had a crash in 10+ years that they are a good driver.

High risk drivers are classed as "The Ministry of Transport report shows that between 2005 and 2009, 642 people were killed in crashes where high-risk drivers were at fault.

The report defines high-risk drivers as unlicensed and disqualified drivers, those with previous speed and alcohol offences, or those who engage in high-risk behaviour (eg driving with a high blood alcohol content, evading enforcement or illegal street racing) at the time of the crash."
http://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/new-statistics-show-impact-high-risk-drivers

And I fully agree that better quality and thought through roading would help, but it is a matter of making do with what we have available.

I agree as well about the poor driver training and any kind of awareness training, I had alot more stuff to put into it but thought it was long enough as is so will leave it for the second article.

[Motu]

LTSA, NZTA - you need LTNZ to get a full set of confusion.

[The Singing Chef]

LTSA, NZTA - you need LTNZ to get a full set of confusion.

Good point, thanks.

[FJRider]

Good stuff. Make the "driver" label "drivers and riders". Acknowledge that the majority of road users have a skill defecit.

It always amaze's me how much the "skill levels" improve when a Police vehicle appears in their sight ... But hey ... I'M GOOD ... so it wont happen to me ... :yawn:

[Oakie]

Not bad. For more credibility you need to back up any claims you make e.g. sentence one ..." New Zealand's roads have been reffered (sic) to as "The killing fields" who referred to them as that? Your mate down the road or LTSA?. The last sentence "many speedos have a 10% inaccuracy" again, what is the source of this stat?

Try to avoid emotive language or you can sound like an activist for the cause rather than someone trying to present a balanced case. That's unless you're going for an 'editorial' style. Otherwise 'facts, not feelings'.

Oh. The spellchecker is your friend.

Good luck with it.

[The Singing Chef]

It always amaze's me how much the "skill levels" improve when a Police vehicle appears in their sight ... But hey ... I'M GOOD ... so it wont happen to me ... :yawn:

They brush the dust off their indicators for once...

[SMOKEU]

High risk drivers are classed as "The Ministry of Transport report shows that between 2005 and 2009, 642 people were killed in crashes where high-risk drivers were at fault.


So according to that, I'm a high risk driver because I once got caught riding a motorcycle at 56kmh in a 50kmh zone. I could have easily killed someone doing that kind of ridiculous speed around town. :yes:

[The Singing Chef]

Not bad. For more credibility you need to back up any claims you make e.g. sentence one ..." New Zealand's roads have been reffered (sic) to as "The killing fields" who referred to them as that? Your mate down the road or LTSA?. The last sentence "many speedos have a 10% inaccuracy" again, what is the source of this stat?

Try to avoid emotive language or you can sound like an activist for the cause rather than someone trying to present a balanced case. That's unless you're going for an 'editorial' style. Otherwise 'facts, not feelings'.

Oh. The spellchecker is your friend.

Good luck with it.

Cheers,

I have my research on another file that I was browsing through which I made sure to hold onto to send along.
That is also a good point I will check it over. and yea I was using note pad since Microsoft Word ran out. Only a draft mind you.

Thanks for your feedback.

[Berries]

And now can you knock it down to 150 words so it stands a chance of being published?

[The Singing Chef]

So according to that, I'm a high risk driver because I once got caught riding a motorcycle at 56kmh in a 50kmh zone. I could have easily killed someone doing that kind of ridiculous speed around town. :yes:

Bloody hoon...:innocent::whistle:

[The Singing Chef]

And now can you knock it down to 150 words so it stands a chance of being published?

:eek5: What to cut? Hmmm, I'll let them cut it out if they don't want to use the whole thing, they usually pick out what they want anyway.

[actungbaby]

When i did my car test after many many years riding only bikes it was very well done i sat it 3 times as i got in automatic and
then resat when got my mx5 manuall who want s auto mx5 yuk.
And i got told few times for driving to fast and i had to pick out 3 or chould been more , pontienal accident risks
he asked me after passed stretch road what did i observe chould been a risk ie a driway obscured etc was good i thought
And when got my last test in my auto lazer i had 2 people one watching me and another watching the instructor.
They asked me weather was okay with me though i said sure. shit i was in my 40s and was nervous as hell hehe
crazy its that not wanting to fail esp going cost you more money esp the theroy.

thats not to say your wrong just another point view i think test have improved remarkable to be honest.
I did this with AA here in pammy thye reko i took to driving manuall like duck to water and was easy , just goes to show
what bit age and desire to do something can do for you , no one wants to be bad driver do they.

I rekon those mantrol adds are good thing funny too. for sure when your young u do silly things , i once jamed on brakes
and crashed of my bike (thought at the time was wonder what will happen) um yes not my finest hour

[The Singing Chef]

When i did my car test after many many years riding only bikes it was very well done i sat it 3 times as i got in automatic and
then resat when got my mx5 manuall who want s auto mx5 yuk.
And i got told few times for driving to fast and i had to pick out 3 or chould been more , pontienal accident risks
he asked me after passed stretch road what did i observe chould been a risk ie a driway obscured etc was good i thought
And when got my last test in my auto lazer i had 2 people one watching me and another watching the instructor.
They asked me weather was okay with me though i said sure. shit i was in my 40s and was nervous as hell hehe
crazy its that not wanting to fail esp going cost you more money esp the theroy.

thats not to say your wrong just another point view i think test have improved remarkable to be honest.
I did this with AA here in pammy thye reko i took to driving manuall like duck to water and was easy , just goes to show
what bit age and desire to do something can do for you , no one wants to be bad driver do they.

I rekon those mantrol adds are good thing funny too. for sure when your young u do silly things , i once jamed on brakes
and crashed of my bike (thought at the time was wonder what will happen) um yes not my finest hour

I could imagine that would have hurt.

I think that it needs to cover a wider range of skills and more in-depth test, driving through a large range of differing road conditions so as to truly assess the capabilities of drivers.

I don't think people want to consciously be bad drivers, but their attitude to other road users and ignorance in using the basic skills in road etiquette goes a long way in regards to being a bad driver.

[actungbaby]

I think u have to learn by expericne and only way to do that is acually cummute to work in a city open road riding driving not really got do that much well as much city condtions traffic.
There never going be giant hand that picks u up out harms way
I was bored out my tree driving my auto car when first got my car licnece , but i drove to auckland
And wow it was real exciting and testing driving down slops and having to brake strongly with traffic slowed in hurry in front of you , where here in palmerston north very few traffic lights as such more roundabouts . dullville though its is fun on pusbike in the mornings ;-(
I think why alot teens get into trouble should be given few challenges in there driving in safe area.
Where can push things a bit but controlled and only one way traffic

I rekon drive sim whould be the go like do with piliots but guess to dam expensive to run pity.

intresting what u say about roads over there what are made from in general , are we not one few places the world that use
tar seal i think states have concret slaps on highways anyway i dunno how chould possibly have everwhere though
we sued to use stone chip thats got more grip than black tar seal has .

onther thing i think is bit daft is how they put open road limits between two small towns you speeding up then whack u got put on the the brakes and slow to crawl 50kph u might had passing lane few hundread metres back before that seem lame
i mean fine when road is dry and its day time but give hell freight when late night and u dont know the road

A significant factor in our road toll is the fact that our roads are bad by international standards. Now I'm not saying that bad roads are an excuse for bad driving, but good roads allow more room for error than bad roads. Humans are not perfect, and even the best of us will make the occasional error. In South Africa, the open roads are much better in general than NZ. I have travelled thousands of kms on South African roads, and the roads there are much wider than our roads, and are in a much better condition overall. There are huge concrete barriers to separate oncoming traffic, and very long multi laned motorways are common over there. I have driven at the 120kmh speed limit on long trips, and found that it's quite boring as the roads are so well engineered.

However, poor driver education is the main factor in our road toll I believe. Most NZ drivers lack the ability to even indicate properly at a roundabout, and if they can't even master such a basic task, then why are they even allowed to operate a motor vehicle on a public road? You wouldn't let your mate who can't even ride a 50cc scooter to ride an R1, so why are we letting these people on our roads? I have also noticed being a passenger in cars, that many people brake reasonably hard mid corner as a matter of their daily routine instead of doing all their braking before the corner. It's this lack of education that is killing us because few people actually know how to drive properly. We should have compulsory driver education in high schools, and all drivers should be made to do a practical driving test as well as a theory test every 2 - 3 years. People tend to get complacent after they have been driving for a long time, and they think that just because they haven't had a crash in 10+ years that they are a good driver.[/QUOTE]

[blue rider]

maybe the driver training needs to be formalized.
you now have parents more or less teaching kids not to hit the first tree right away, together with a 'she'll/he'll be right attitude" shit will hit the fan.

it is simply to easy, to cheap and to meaningless to get a driver/rider lisence in NZ.

as for the BHS.....what a farce, i am still amazed I am actually alive today....:woohoo:

[actungbaby]

I could imagine that would have hurt.
No but was embarrisng was like at 30 kph i think neibour thought was a fruitcake hehe
I think that it needs to cover a wider range of skills and more in-depth test, driving through a large range of differing road conditions so as to truly assess the capabilities of drivers.

I don't think people want to consciously be bad drivers, but their attitude to other road users and ignorance in using the basic skills in road etiquette goes a long way in regards to being a bad driver.

yes i have to agree cause you got gun to my head no just kididng
yes alot of its attitude and think we have right to drive not that its actually privlege i even think we all do that at diffrent moments , yes but just common curstosy i dont just think driving related though whole society getting more intolrent

Its case where ore seprated from each other with technogly , i mean old days u had somone whoud start screaming
just beacuse somone cut in front them (road rage) give break just childess behaviour.
These days u get people waving golf clubs at each other sometimes gezz damm i dont even like the game.
and i lost my cool couple times am no saint but...

[The Singing Chef]

maybe the driver training needs to be formalized.
you now have parents more or less teaching kids not to hit the first tree right away, together with a 'she'll/he'll be right attitude" shit will hit the fan.

it is simply to easy, to cheap and to meaningless to get a driver/rider lisence in NZ.

as for the BHS.....what a farce, i am still amazed I am actually alive today....:woohoo:

Though it is a little better that they have the radio ads talking about when their kids get their restricted, not to think that the job is done and leave them to their own devices because they are at the most risk of crashing.

It's something I guess. Now they just need one saying look out for motorbikes.

[blue rider]

in germany ...where many moons ago i learned how to drive, we all had to sit in class for about 10 hours....1 hour over a period of 10 weeks and learn "theory". Only after completing these 10 hours could one attempt to sit the 'scratchy' test. not in front of a computer alone at an AA building, but together with all the fellow learners in a class room. A week later one was given their test results....at a cost of (memory fails) $ 45 (NZ Dollar used to be 1 to 1 with DM) and Test Cost of about a $100 it was not cheap to just sit your theory.

followed by the obligatory Red Cross First Aid course....$ 100

followed by (again Memory) 15 - 20 hours of Inner City driving
followed by 6 hours Motorway (it is scary going a 140 for the first time ever....!)
followed by 6 hours Night Driving

all these hours at a cost of $45, plus an extra $100+ for the practical test it was not cheap to get the "Schein" Lisence.

And the Lisence was on probation for 2 years, fuck up and start the whole procedure again. Kaching...

And the first things we heard in theory ........Defensive Driving.......Road Side Communication.....Courtesy......if you want to get somewhere for sure, take your time.....

[The Singing Chef]

in germany ...where many moons ago i learned how to drive, we all had to sit in class for about 10 hours....1 hour over a period of 10 weeks and learn "theory". Only after completing these 10 hours could one attempt to sit the 'scratchy' test. not in front of a computer alone at an AA building, but together with all the fellow learners in a class room. A week later one was given their test results....at a cost of (memory fails) $ 45 (NZ Dollar used to be 1 to 1 with DM) and Test Cost of about a $100 it was not cheap to just sit your theory.

followed by the obligatory Red Cross First Aid course....$ 100

followed by (again Memory) 15 - 20 hours of Inner City driving
followed by 6 hours Motorway (it is scary going a 140 for the first time ever....!)
followed by 6 hours Night Driving

all these hours at a cost of $45, plus an extra $100+ for the practical test it was not cheap to get the "Schein" Lisence.

And the Lisence was on probation for 2 years, fuck up and start the whole procedure again. Kaching...

And the first things we heard in theory ........Defensive Driving.......Road Side Communication.....Courtesy......if you want to get somewhere for sure, take your time.....

Yea I have heard it is really expensive, even more so now I think? That is what we need!! Real lessons! FFS New Zealand. :brick:

[blue rider]

i spent around 2000 DM, which made the License the most expensive thing I owned at the time.
No way was I going to loose the "Lappen" due to running over a Stop sign, or some excess speed.

to be fair, the Nato Ralley on Sunday nights is fun to participate in, and if on the correct motorway no speeding tickets will be handed out! All you need is a good motorised something brummmmmm brummmm

[GPXchick]

Well articulated bro, I agree with most on here the BHS test was an absolute joke and i was truly not ready to be on the road even though licensed to do so. I think an interesting note to add about our license system is i will use my friend "BOB" as an example. He wants a Big harley and won;t been seen dead on a 250 so he is just waiting out the 18 months until he can get his full licence, gonna do the 15 minute full licence test and go and buy his first bike 1000cc+. I can see why we are resctricted in power whilst learning. I feel they could maybe allow for 400cc though. However your ungrade to your next licence should be on the KM's you have racked up in experience. E.g 6000 qualifies learners to restricted, then an additional 10,000 kms to gain your full. Or something along those lines. It wouldn't be hard to pop into a VTNZ have them take a quick looksy at your speedo and put against your licence like demerit points.

I wish you luck with this article matt. Well done mate. WOOOOOOO track day on sunday :D:Punk:

[James Deuce]

GPXchick, the rules for learner bikes change this year. Up to 660cc and maximum power to weight ratio instead of a blanket 250cc.

[nosebleed]

in germany ...where many moons ago i learned how to drive, we all had to sit in class for about 10 hours....1 hour over a period of 10 weeks and learn "theory". Only after completing these 10 hours could one attempt to sit the 'scratchy' test. not in front of a computer alone at an AA building, but together with all the fellow learners in a class room. A week later one was given their test results....at a cost of (memory fails) $ 45 (NZ Dollar used to be 1 to 1 with DM) and Test Cost of about a $100 it was not cheap to just sit your theory.

followed by the obligatory Red Cross First Aid course....$ 100

followed by (again Memory) 15 - 20 hours of Inner City driving
followed by 6 hours Motorway (it is scary going a 140 for the first time ever....!)
followed by 6 hours Night Driving

all these hours at a cost of $45, plus an extra $100+ for the practical test it was not cheap to get the "Schein" Lisence.

And the Lisence was on probation for 2 years, fuck up and start the whole procedure again. Kaching...

And the first things we heard in theory ........Defensive Driving.......Road Side Communication.....Courtesy......if you want to get somewhere for sure, take your time.....

Bling for putting this writing. If only it would fit in a signature box.

If Brian407 is still around, I'd suggest that this is the cause that MCSAC et al are looking for, and it's a more sure-fire way for bikers and biking organisations to be taken seriously if this is the agenda we use.

[Conquiztador]

Sorry dude. You lost my interest about 1/3 in to the writing. Why? Well, as someone who has looked in to the info your are writing about I found your essay boring and lacking of anything new. And I would assume that someone who does not worry re this would also glanze over and move on.

So what to do?
- If you write articles try to make it about someone. It adds a personal touch (Maree crashed on the motorway outside Western Springs in 2007, she is now in a wheelchair...)
- Make it interesting (Did you know that in 2003 males who had just been to a brothel was the ones who crashed most...)
- Give jolts to the reader (Based on current statistics inside 5 years one person you know will be a road casualty...)
- Give hope ( Research show that if all riders/drivers do a refreshing course then...)

And I could go on. But I think you get the drift. Spend heaps of time on research!

I applaud your initiative but you need to raise the bar.

[The Singing Chef]

Sorry dude. You lost my interest about 1/3 in to the writing. Why? Well, as someone who has looked in to the info your are writing about I found your essay boring and lacking of anything new. And I would assume that someone who does not worry re this would also glanze over and move on.

So what to do?
- If you write articles try to make it about someone. It adds a personal touch (Maree crashed on the motorway outside Western Springs in 2007, she is now in a wheelchair...)
- Make it interesting (Did you know that in 2003 males who had just been to a brothel was the ones who crashed most...)
- Give jolts to the reader (Based on current statistics inside 5 years one person you know will be a road casualty...)
- Give hope ( Research show that if all riders/drivers do a refreshing course then...)

And I could go on. But I think you get the drift.

I applaud your initiative but you need to raise the bar.

Cheers for the input bro, you have some good ideas.

[Brian407]

Bling for putting this writing. If only it would fit in a signature box.

If Brian407 is still around, I'd suggest that this is the cause that MCSAC et al are looking for, and it's a more sure-fire way for bikers and biking organisations to be taken seriously if this is the agenda we use.

Gets my vote, big time.

[Paul in NZ]

Um - there is a skill deficit and an emotional skill deficit to be addressed here.

There is something about petrol fumes that turns normal people into insanely competitive killers with limited reasoning powers and an overly optimistic attitude…

Somehow you could work that in during your edit ;-)

[baffa]

Despite our appalling driving, in the scheme of things, fatalities per capita really isnt all that bad.
However if the govt really wanted to improve the driving abilities of this country, they would make the licensing system a lot more rigid, and retest all drivers every 5 years.
People may start out as patient courteous drivers, but within a couple of years that quickly goes down hill. Add to that it is family that often teaches us how to drive, and most parents I know are far from qualified to give any real driving advice.

If you resit your license after 5 years and cannot prove you are a safe and confident driver, you have to resit the test once you have completed training, or you lose your license and have to start again.

[Oblivion]

Its great that your taking the initiative to do something about this. I'm sick of having to ride like I know that someone is out to get me.

Few things though.

Like Conquizator(?) said, you need to make it more captivating. If you send it to the LTNZ/NZTA they'll read it, but that it because they are obliged to. But for people like us, If you lose our attention, like happened to me 3/4 of the way through, its a fail. Keep at it :msn-wink:

Add footnotes. Show all of your sources at the bottom, and citate all of them as well. This show that you arent making only generalisations, but are backing up with facts.


Just a personal thing here, but a few days ago I saw a Learner driver in a 4L BMW. What is stopping people from hopping in a 8L Ferrari and driving away. Theres nothing. My bike is a single cylinder GN250. My car is a 1.5L Honda Civic. Why? Because I have the common sense to not go beyond my boundaries too quickly. Hell, when you have to do a multiple choie test to get your 1L, The only thing that I can see stopping someone from getting a Ferrari is the insurance premium :mellow:

[Bassmatt]

[QUOTE=SMOKEU;1130231850] Most NZ drivers lack the ability to even indicate properly at a roundabout, and if they can't even master such a basic task, then why are they even allowed to operate a motor vehicle on a public road?

I couldnt agree more, I think the same thing about the Give Way rule everyone complains about. If its "too hard" to understand get of the fucking road.

[James Deuce]

Its great that your taking the initiative to do something about this. I'm sick of having to ride like I know that someone is out to get me.

Few things though.

Like Conquizator(?) said, you need to make it more captivating. If you send it to the LTNZ/NZTA they'll read it, but that it because they are obliged to. But for people like us, If you lose our attention, like happened to me 3/4 of the way through, its a fail. Keep at it :msn-wink:

Add footnotes. Show all of your sources at the bottom, and citate all of them as well. This show that you arent making only generalisations, but are backing up with facts.


Just a personal thing here, but a few days ago I saw a Learner driver in a 4L BMW. What is stopping people from hopping in a 8L Ferrari and driving away. Theres nothing. My bike is a single cylinder GN250. My car is a 1.5L Honda Civic. Why? Because I have the common sense to not go beyond my boundaries too quickly. Hell, when you have to do a multiple choie test to get your 1L, The only thing that I can see stopping someone from getting a Ferrari is the insurance premium :mellow:

No such thing as a modern eight litre Ferrari and if you can afford to buy a Ferrari you can afford the insurance premium.

[caspernz]

Um - there is a skill deficit and an emotional skill deficit to be addressed here.

There is something about petrol fumes that turns normal people into insanely competitive killers with limited reasoning powers and an overly optimistic attitude…

Somehow you could work that in during your edit ;-)

Haha, I like the emotional skill deficit line.... That must be the reason why so many Kiwi drivers are rather combative behind the wheel, very unforgiving of even the slightest inconvenience to them.

All for having a much harder licence test, as well as the 5 year retest. It's high time the nonsense of being trained by just anyone with a licence comes to an end. Imagine the growth in driving instructors and assessors such a change would require...and how many folks might just drive unlicensed.

[scumdog]

Too many of the accidents on NZ aren't.

They are actually crashes caused by incompetence, arrogance or ignorance. (And often in the company of a certain amount of dumb-arse bravado)

Ban parents/siblings/friends training kids - all they do is pass on bad habits, just enough of them for the kid to 'pass' their licence 'test'.

Bring in compulsory driver training that has to be passed before attempting the driving licence test.

[Brian407]

Too many of the accidents on NZ aren't.

They are actually crashes caused by incompetence, arrogance or ignorance. (And often in the company of a certain amount of dumb-arse bravado)

Ban parents/siblings/friends training kids - all they do is pass on bad habits, just enough of them for the kid to 'pass' their licence 'test'.

Bring in compulsory driver training that has to be passed before attempting the driving licence test.

WooHoo... Now we're talking. This HAS to happen before anything else will change.

[Edbear]

Aside from young drivers aged between 20 - 24, who are the "high risk" drivers?

A significant factor in our road toll is the fact that our roads are bad by international standards. Now I'm not saying that bad roads are an excuse for bad driving, but good roads allow more room for error than bad roads. Humans are not perfect, and even the best of us will make the occasional error. In South Africa, the open roads are much better in general than NZ. I have travelled thousands of kms on South African roads, and the roads there are much wider than our roads, and are in a much better condition overall. There are huge concrete barriers to separate oncoming traffic, and very long multi laned motorways are common over there. I have driven at the 120kmh speed limit on long trips, and found that it's quite boring as the roads are so well engineered.

However, poor driver education is the main factor in our road toll I believe. Most NZ drivers lack the ability to even indicate properly at a roundabout, and if they can't even master such a basic task, then why are they even allowed to operate a motor vehicle on a public road? You wouldn't let your mate who can't even ride a 50cc scooter to ride an R1, so why are we letting these people on our roads? I have also noticed being a passenger in cars, that many people brake reasonably hard mid corner as a matter of their daily routine instead of doing all their braking before the corner. It's this lack of education that is killing us because few people actually know how to drive properly. We should have compulsory driver education in high schools, and all drivers should be made to do a practical driving test as well as a theory test every 2 - 3 years. People tend to get complacent after they have been driving for a long time, and they think that just because they haven't had a crash in 10+ years that they are a good driver.

I agree, and the school is a good place to do it. Make it a voluntary part of the curriculum and anyone who opts not to do it has to pay for their own driver training later if they change their mind after leaving school.


High risk drivers are classed as "The Ministry of Transport report shows that between 2005 and 2009, 642 people were killed in crashes where high-risk drivers were at fault.

The report defines high-risk drivers as unlicensed and disqualified drivers, those with previous speed and alcohol offences, or those who engage in high-risk behaviour (eg driving with a high blood alcohol content, evading enforcement or illegal street racing) at the time of the crash."
http://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/new-statistics-show-impact-high-risk-drivers

And I fully agree that better quality and thought through roading would help, but it is a matter of making do with what we have available.

I agree as well about the poor driver training and any kind of awareness training, I had alot more stuff to put into it but thought it was long enough as is so will leave it for the second article.

Far more so than the road condition, too!


When i did my car test after many many years riding only bikes it was very well done i sat it 3 times as i got in automatic and
then resat when got my mx5 manuall who want s auto mx5 yuk.
And i got told few times for driving to fast and i had to pick out 3 or chould been more , pontienal accident risks
he asked me after passed stretch road what did i observe chould been a risk ie a driway obscured etc was good i thought
And when got my last test in my auto lazer i had 2 people one watching me and another watching the instructor.
They asked me weather was okay with me though i said sure. shit i was in my 40s and was nervous as hell hehe
crazy its that not wanting to fail esp going cost you more money esp the theroy.

thats not to say your wrong just another point view i think test have improved remarkable to be honest.
I did this with AA here in pammy thye reko i took to driving manuall like duck to water and was easy , just goes to show
what bit age and desire to do something can do for you , no one wants to be bad driver do they.

I rekon those mantrol adds are good thing funny too. for sure when your young u do silly things , i once jamed on brakes
and crashed of my bike (thought at the time was wonder what will happen) um yes not my finest hour

Welcome another MX5 owner! We have a '94 1800 manual and agree about the auto.


maybe the driver training needs to be formalized.
you now have parents more or less teaching kids not to hit the first tree right away, together with a 'she'll/he'll be right attitude" shit will hit the fan.

it is simply to easy, to cheap and to meaningless to get a driver/rider lisence in NZ.

as for the BHS.....what a farce, i am still amazed I am actually alive today....:woohoo:

I can't bling you twice in a row...

[avgas]

Motorist blame anything but their driving/riding.
The Government blames the roads.
The Road worker blames the poor budget.
The tax payer blames the government.

Fact of the matter is there is a personal disinterest in people to find their limits off road.......before they take said vehicle on the road. "I'm not some kind of hoon".
So when the shit hits the fan - the blame games starts and the nanny state hugs the moron and says "there there, its ok, it wasn't your fault".

Its a damn sight easier than saying we are all fucking morons, and that limit testing for all (not just rally drivers) is required.

[BM-GS]

Blame game? Who knows what most people on the road are playing at...

Was heading down SH2 last week (trailer of dirt-bikes on the back, kids in the car, etc) when bloke on a 250/400 runs out of room to get past at the end of the overtaking lane....

Plus point for him: he didn't assume I'd seen him, or that my hugging the hash-makrs on the left meant anything other than I wasn't paying attention.
Minus points: he didn't stay behind me, but sat next to the trailer as I ran out of tarmac and had to move back into the lane, where he still was! If I hadn't seen him there I could easily have swatted him into the other lane. Even if I had seen him, I was going to put my life and my kids' lives ahead of his when the road ran out. I flicked down the window & waved him past (I hope he can tell the difference between a "come on past" wave and a "get the f*ck out of it" wave), so I didn't have him there (needing to be kept an eye on), rather than from any desire to let him on his merry way unencumbered by my 90kmh top speed. Oh, that stretch is 90kmh now...

Not sure if his stop in Ngatea was to tell his mates how crap the driving is on SH2 or to recover from the incident, but 2 things:

1. Never put your safety in some other bugger's hands - even if they've seen you, they may not care.
2. Do or do not, there is no point half-overtaking somebody. See point 1.

Yes, I was young & foolish once. Yes, I used to compare notes when I arrived at my first job with the other bikers to see who had the most/best close-calls on the way in. Being older & wiser, I can now see that most of it was probably me being stupid, but I never forgot that it hurts less to learn from other people's mistakes rather than your own, and that while you can ride assertively, being aggressive will end badly.

Stand by the the NZ cops to go French and require riders to wear flouro-gear all the time. Probably a month after they make it a law in Victoria...
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/General-news/2012/January/jan0912-hi-vis-gear-compulsory-in-france-from-next-year/

[MSTRS]

Stand by the the NZ cops to go French and require riders to wear flouro-gear all the time. Probably a month after they make it a law in Victoria...


Tis merely the authorities giving the impression that they are doing something, and amounts to nothing more than a lot of the crap OSH shit that is foisted on us...that is, someone else may be at fault but let's lay the responsibility at the feet of *whoever*...
The other side of the same coin is...if I'm wearing dayglo, I don't have to be so vigilant 'cos they'll have seen me.

Imagine the aftermath...
Officer Scumdog: So what happened?
Mr SMIDSY: Well, I was just entering the intersection when WHAM, this motorcycle run straight into me driver's door.
OS: Really? So how did you not see him? He had his headlight on and was wearing hi-vis like the law requires.
Mr S: Funny you should say that. I did catch a flash of colour just before he hit me. Not like the one last year...I didn't see him at all before he hit me. Same intersection too, now that I think about it. Both of them just came out of nowhere...they had to have been speeding. Bloody hoons on bikes, eh?.

[James Deuce]

Tis merely the authorities giving the impression that they are doing something, and amounts to nothing more than a lot of the crap OSH shit that is foisted on us...that is, someone else may be at fault but let's lay the responsibility at the feet of *whoever*...
The other side of the same coin is...if I'm wearing dayglo, I don't have to be so vigilant 'cos they'll have seen me.

Imagine the aftermath...
Officer Scumdog: So what happened?
Mr SMIDSY: Well, I was just entering the intersection when WHAM, this motorcycle run straight into me driver's door.
OS: Really? So how did you not see him? He had his headlight on and was wearing hi-vis like the law requires.
Mr S: Funny you should say that. I did catch a flash of colour just before he hit me. Not like the one last year...I didn't see him at all before he hit me. Same intersection too, now that I think about it. Both of them just came out of nowhere...they had to have been speeding. Bloody hoons on bikes, eh?.

I'm starting to think that's some sort of script ACC hand out to non-Class 6 license holders.

[English Kiwi]

You have some good points Matt! Well written as well, couldn't really find any grammar issues at all :bleh:

I must add that when people are learning to Drive, they need to have awareness in the early stages of Motorbikes, Ash goes on about it all the time, that if they are aware early in the driving experience they are more likely to see us and not hit us.

In the UK you have to take a Theory test and a Hazard Perception test (which is a computerised test where you have to click everytime you see a potential hazard, e.g. cyclist or car turning into an intercection, but it does not mention weather conditions...I guess that would be too much to think about!!! yeh right)to get your learners and then have a minimum of 40hours driving experience before you can even take your practical test and get your full licence.

It's not that great a method of getting skills of road conditions (I certainly know my driving is not great, but I do ride more) but I guess that's why Uk drivers are pretty shocking!!

So much needs to be improved with the actual learning stages of both riding and driving...if the Govt wants to make the roads easier to drive/ride then surely we may as well go to the States...where we all know there are no such things as corners! :bleh: :eek:


Looks like you have lots more of ideas on here to use now Matt...you could be typing for a long time! hahaha

[scumdog]

Stand by the the NZ cops to go French and require riders to wear flouro-gear all the time. Probably a month after they make it a law in Victoria...


So it's the COPS that make these kinds of laws eh??<_<

The bastids:shit:

[skippa1]

So it's the COPS that make these kinds of laws eh??<_<

The bastids:shit:

you cops do all that shit, make it rain on the weekend, Make a public holiday fall on a weekend, make me loose my last $20 out of my back pocket at the pub, wear my tyres out on the sides......make gas so expensive. Blardy cops :Police:

[Old Steve]

There's an attitude in NZ that it's your right to drive a car.

It's NOT! Driving a car is an obligation, an obligation to drive by the road laws, and to keep yourself and others on the road safe.

One thing I would suggest is compulsory insurance. If you're a new driver and want to drive a WRX, then try to find an insurer who will cover you and at waht cost. If you drive without insurance, then huge fines and the car should be confiscated or crushed - not your car, no worry it's the owner who decided they didn't need insurance.

Pretty soon you'll see much better driving, as the insurers would up the cost of insurance for demerit points, accidents, age, experience, etc. At some level even the dumbest driver will realise it's costing them money to insure the car or they've has too many cars confiscated.

[SPman]

Now I'm not saying that bad roads are an excuse for bad driving, but good roads allow more room for error than bad roads. Saw that last night. Country roads over here are a 6m wide strip of seal with a m or so of pea gravel road edge. We have a corner on brow of hill, descending 45 degree right hand kink with left hand off camber. Speed limit change as well, from 110 to 90. Tired contractor in 10 y.o.Nissan Patrol drops wheel off the seal onto the gravel right on the corner, and wheeeeee, his arse end tries to catch the front, he's across the road into the bank and rolls it twice downhill, demolishing some scrub at the same time! He was lucky - scratch on his head - the last person who did that, a young guy, 4 months ago, centre punched a tree and went out feet first!
They complain about country fatalities out here, but the roads have a lot to do with it - a combination of poor driver skills and no room for error roads, do tend to increase crash rates to higher levels than they otherwise would be.

[haydes55]

Seen some good ideas in this thread. If you want immediate change however without having to deal with the stupidity of government I suggest baseball bats, Ceramic tiles (smashes windows effortlessly!:Police:), swearing and abusive behaviour. Any time you see a driver be an arsewhole, let them know. I don't care if it's an 80 year old indicating left and turning right or someone flicking there lights back onto highbeam when they are still pointing at you (the sudden blindness from doing this has almost caused me to crash several times (all because the useless fucktards can't wait 0.2 seconds until they are actually past me)!

If we all scare the shit out of people driving badly I'm sure they will learn, drive like an arsewhole, get treated like shit.

I'll be doing my part. Also drivers who see me filtering traffic and turn to cut me off can expect to fork out for new tail lights aswell :Police:

[SMOKEU]

Seen some good ideas in this thread. If you want immediate change however without having to deal with the stupidity of government I suggest baseball bats, Ceramic tiles (smashes windows effortlessly!:Police:), swearing and abusive behaviour. Any time you see a driver be an arsewhole, let them know. I don't care if it's an 80 year old indicating left and turning right or someone flicking there lights back onto highbeam when they are still pointing at you (the sudden blindness from doing this has almost caused me to crash several times (all because the useless fucktards can't wait 0.2 seconds until they are actually past me)!

If we all scare the shit out of people driving badly I'm sure they will learn, drive like an arsewhole, get treated like shit.

I'll be doing my part. Also drivers who see me filtering traffic and turn to cut me off can expect to fork out for new tail lights aswell :Police:

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTT2ngmSR1KVwTqRdhmGOpArklYCL4N9 8Q5m_wfHUmtTv9pdGm0SSPVS5bZ

[puddy]

Some places in New Zealands roading system are given Black Spot "status" ... because a lot of vehicles crash there. If enough idiots ride/drive over ANY given road ... odd's are ... a "Black Spot" will appear.

Funny how there is so many "Black Spots" is the Auckland area ... Coincidence maybe ... :whistle:

True, true! But there aren't enough people in Alexandra to 'produce' a black spot :bleh:. People are the same. The fuckwit/fag ratio is the same everywhere. There's just more people up here.

[FJRider]

True, true! But there aren't enough people in Alexandra to 'produce' a black spot :bleh:. People are the same. The fuckwit/fag ratio is the same everywhere. There's just more people up here.

Not near Alexandra anyway ... but as Queenstown (the destination center of the tourist world) ... so enough fuckwits from around the world come here. So we have more than our share. "Black spots" DO occur in the area.

[rastuscat]

... But hey ... I'M GOOD ... so it wont happen to me ... :yawn:

There, good man, is the guts of the issue.

I can leave my seatbelt hanging from the pillar, coz it won't happen to me. I've driven heaps with no belt on and not died, so it must be safe. Coz I'm not going to crash, I don't need to wear my seatbelt.

I can drive faster than the speed limit, coz I'm not going to crash, so my speed doesn't matter. Crashes happen to other people, so I'll just keep driving as fast as I decide to.

I have driven after a few beers so many times, how can it not be safe? I'm only going a short distance, just around the corner. Other people have drink drive crashes, not me.

I have never crashed at a stop sign. I wish OP would stop at stop signs, so OP wouldn't pull out in front of me. I can roll through though, coz I've never crashed at a stop sign.

See, crashes happen to OP. OP is the bastard that crashes so go pick on OP. In fact, the last crash I had as caused by OP, go pick on him.

So there.

[MSTRS]

I can leave my seatbelt hanging from the pillar...

I can drive faster than the speed limit...

I have driven after a few beers so many times...

I have never crashed at a stop sign...


It's the blue uniform of invincibility, isn't it?

[rastuscat]

It's the blue uniform of invincibility, isn't it?

.....nope, it's the masking veil of sarcasm.

I know all these things are true, as I get told them most days by the people we deal with for not wearing seatbelts, speeding, getting juiced and driving, not stopping at stop signs.

I also read them on KB. Like I said, they must be true.

Yeah right.

[BM-GS]

The fuckwit/fag ratio is the same everywhere. There's just more people up here.

But have you noticed how some days all those fuckwits/fags seem to come at you at once? There have been days I've wondered if there isn't a convention in town... Things go OK for a week or 2, then you nearly get taken out by 3 people on the same ride.