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pzkpfw
19th January 2012, 00:06
Back in WSE 2.0 days I could set up a web service with a fairly simple policy file that signed and encrypted stuff nicely, then call the service over HTTPS nice and easy. A bit redundant (using SSL on top of the WS-* stuff) but the client liked it.

So now the thing has to be converted to WCF, but does it support both transport security and message security? Nope. Unless you're calling MSMQ.

So I've got a sore arse from sitting trawling MSDN and google, needing to read tons and tons of obscurely written specs hoping to find the answer to my issue. Mind numbing. Computers should be getting easier, but all these standards and frameworks don't seem to be helping with that.

Not a relaxing way to earn a living. I want a job where I walk through the forest, or something.


(No need to reply, unless you are a .Net WCF Guru; ...or if you have your own "I work in I.T." bitching to do.)

Gremlin
19th January 2012, 00:50
That's easy. Contract network management... It's always my fault/problem

:lol:

jrandom
19th January 2012, 04:25
This is why I always avoided webby and databasey jobs.

Until the end. A year of it drove me into becoming a bicycle courier.

This counts as bitching; I know SFA about WCF.

Might I recommend looking for a job as an embedded software engineer? Coding directly on the metal is much more fun.

vifferman
20th January 2012, 18:40
Might I recommend looking for a job as an embedded software engineer? Coding directly on the metal is much more fun.
Yayes.
That's #2MutantTroglodyte's expertise (after music, and knowing everything about everything, of course....)

Mental Trousers
20th January 2012, 19:12
You think that's bad. A single hard drive has led to me spending 3 weeks rebuilding our entire network (I was at work from 30/12/2011 to 09/12/2011 before things were working well enough to have a day off). Shouldn't be able to happen, but it seems if you are using a single drive for the L2ARC cache on a ZFS file server and that drive goes a bit dodgy it starts corrupting things far and wide at a great rate of knots.

Surprisingly (or not if you know what ZFS is capable of), we lost only 5 snapshots that were corrupted and had to be deleted out of a couple of hundred. Everything important is still pristine. I'm an even bigger fan of ZFS now.

wharekura
27th February 2012, 17:54
This is why I always avoided webby and databasey jobs.
i enjoy database stuff (sql server) but finding always playing catchup with web tech such as jscript, then json, ajax, mvc - goes on and on and on. i find going back to basics (simple jscript instead of json) tend to solve todays problems.

database tsql hasnt changed that much (for me anyway for practical day to day use) from sql server 6.5 to sql 2008 r2.

jrandom
27th February 2012, 18:20
database tsql hasnt changed that much (for me anyway for practical day to day use) from sql server 6.5 to sql 2008 r2.

No, it hasn't.

I've (oddly) found myself writing SQL again recently. For 2008 R2, in fact. Because the Express version is now the best free database platform. I came to it by way of driving diggers. Turned out that the project needed a warehousing database.

It's much the same as it was 10 years ago, except that SQL Server (or possibly just its ODBC driver) is now slightly buggier and I've had to add a few defensive SQLCloseCursor() calls to the C++ connection class that I wrote when I was barely out of nappies and have been dragging around with me ever since.

The fundamentals of algorithms and data structures haven't changed since the 1950s, and relational database design is what it is and is unlikely to become anything else any time soon.

wharekura
27th February 2012, 18:52
...except that SQL Server (or possibly just its ODBC driver) ...C++ ...
ODBC! :eek5: c++ :girlfight: its OLEDB and C# nowdays mate - especially if its for data mining. joking.

The fundamentals of algorithms and data structures haven't changed since the 1950s,...
yep, i still draw crows feet when going through a spec (usually a bunch of handwritten vague notes) - OO databases my ass.

jrandom
27th February 2012, 18:56
ODBC! :eek5: c++ :girlfight: its OLEDB and C# nowdays mate - especially if its for data mining. joking.

Oh, I know. But I'm a dinosaur from the 90s who's spent most of his life writing ARM assembler and I'm hardly going to go back to school just to knock out a one-week coding job for people who have no idea about any of the above and don't care so long as it works, so C++ and ODBC it was.


OO databases my ass.

Yep. Total fad. Fortunately mostly buried and forgotten by now.

mashman
27th February 2012, 19:07
Yep. Total fad. Fortunately mostly buried and forgotten by now.

Oh I dunno, a decent DB design is worth its weight in gold... chuck in a home made MVC code generator (I hate edmx) to pump out models, views and controllers and ye can batter out a fair sized application in a matter of minutes... it's when it comes down to the requirements that things get hazy... but yeah, I'm feckin bored with upskilling. Give me XSLT and Javascript any day of the week.

wharekura
27th February 2012, 19:29
i use to love coding and saw it as art - now its a chore but admittedly it pays the bills. every now and then though i would marvel at how effeciant something is and how it works like clockwork (a stored proc doing cross tab reporting with dynamic ad-hoc colums anyone?)

im old school too, i use to do cobol with pdp11s and my first programming language was sega 2000 basic grabbing my stuff from a casette tape. so dont get me wrong, im not knocking your c++ etc - its just another level i dont want to know :) - dont get me started with peeks and pokes.

avgas
27th February 2012, 20:30
I started out doing the smarts in boxes that were slightly IT related but essentially engineering. Protection relays, quality analysers......................then moved to SCADA n networks and the like to feed the family........................picked up bits and bobs of SQL/VBS/C and various other things.................................NOW THE BASTARDS WANT ME TO LEARN AJAX AND DOJO!!!!!!!!! WANKERS!!!!!! :lol:

On a side note just been playing with the new Axure beta that just got released. Looks promising. Very easy to use. Simpler than whatever that rubbish was they got me to use earlier (reaches back to find big horrible book) ..... Dreamweaver.

DangerMice
27th February 2012, 20:41
Oh I dunno, a decent DB design is worth its weight in gold... chuck in a home made MVC code generator (I hate edmx) to pump out models, views and controllers and ye can batter out a fair sized application in a matter of minutes

with MVC & EF I'm less a software engineer and a more a jigsaw puzzle solver with a magic right click button....

sil3nt
27th February 2012, 20:46
with MVC & EF I'm less a software engineer and a more a jigsaw puzzle solver with a magic right click button....almost takes the fun out of it doesn't it?

Still don't know what I want to do for a job. At the moment front end developer has me most interested and entertained.

DangerMice
27th February 2012, 20:57
At the moment front end developer has me most interested and entertained.

Yeah, I do enjoy doing UI, often think about morphing into the UX side of things

mashman
27th February 2012, 21:38
with MVC & EF I'm less a software engineer and a more a jigsaw puzzle solver with a magic right click button....

Aye same here. Find the useful bits, cut, paste, tinker job done. Yup, I use the EF with my code generator, can't be arsed with code first or dickin around with the T4 etc... just read the database properties and CodeDom classes and pages to piece together as and when I need them. I like designing (when given the time, which is pretty much never) and prototyping... I can't stand UI :). Would love to do more analysis and requirements gathering, but nigh on impossible without the quals.

thecharmed01
27th February 2012, 22:33
Dreamweaver

*vomits in her mouth a little*

ew ew ew ew EW.

My current bitch is retarded website clients, who ignore your recommendations and use nasty hosting that screws their site..... but then they don't want to pay the bill for getting the site back up and running.
I have decided never EVER to work for anyone who isn't net savvy EVER again GRRRRRR.

pzkpfw
27th February 2012, 22:48
Many pages of goodness: http://clientsfromhell.net/

mashman
27th February 2012, 22:52
Many pages of goodness: http://clientsfromhell.net/

ACM's (as one boss put it, Arse Covering Memo) and an email trail... amazing the shit some people try to pull.

thecharmed01
28th February 2012, 08:44
ACM's (as one boss put it, Arse Covering Memo) and an email trail... amazing the shit some people try to pull.

Yeah I have all that, even have (surprising seeing as I had some rather major arguments with them) copies of emails from the hosting company saying that my bill was reasonable and the work I said I did was logical for the issue at hand.

Doesn't make the bastards pay though.

durp
28th February 2012, 09:01
Ya know its shit like that that made me get away from it. Got sick of doin that crap for 10 years, just got into video development. So much more enjoyable. I can be technical, but in a linear process where its just moving forward. No more bs trouble shooting things that are SUPPOSED to be working.

bogan
28th February 2012, 09:05
Might I recommend looking for a job as an embedded software engineer? Coding directly on the metal is much more fun.

Coding is always better when you don't have to use some numptie's inefficient, unannoted steaming pile of crap. Embedded is pretty good, you get a lot more feel of progression for time spent.

wharekura
28th February 2012, 09:23
... use some numptie's inefficient, unannoted steaming pile of crap... like a bar fight when i was in my dumber teens, there is always someone bigger (in my case a rock solid Samoan...respect) Code, I try and understand the person behind the code before I start despising the person, maybe it was rushed due to budgets, for example. My stuff will never be the most orsumnist as there will always be someone to shove it up my MS Access 2000 Database using VB4.

bogan
28th February 2012, 09:30
like a bar fight when i was in my dumber teens, there is always someone bigger (in my case a rock solid Samoan...respect) Code, I try and understand the person behind the code before I start despising the person, maybe it was rushed due to budgets, for example. My stuff will never be the most orsumnist as there will always be someone to shove it up my MS Access 2000 Database using VB4.

A noble way of looking at things. However, dealing with unannotated VB6 code where the variables are just single letters, and the option explicit (iirc) has been added so they are not defined or initialised properly, many, many nested if-then-else statements (without {} to mark them), the longer variable names are almost all globals and seem to have been about as well thought out as a monkey flinging poop at a dictionary, this kind of code may change your outlook, and will to live :weep:

wharekura
28th February 2012, 10:14
On the following charges Mr Wharekura, how do you plea?


... VB6 code where the variables are just single letters...
Guilty Your Honor (and still am with c# using Catch (Exception Ex) for example)


...and the option explicit...
Not Guilty. (not with visual studio anyway)


...not defined or initialised properly...
No plea. (c# allows declarations of variants - which is a defined non-definable!?)


...many nested if-then-else statements...
Not Guilty. (VB4 was not classed from what I recall to avoid the many nested ifs)


...without {} to mark them...
Not Guilty. (Im not 100% sure but even VB.Net doesnt have statement wrappers)


...longer variable names are almost all globals...
No plea. (possibly guilty but need to consult my solicitor)


...this kind of code may change your outlook, and will to live :weep:...
Hell, if you cant bet 'em, join 'em. Im tempted to show u one of my recent works on a TSQL stored proc doing ad-hoc xtabbing without the crappy pivot - you wont be weeping, you'll most probably go find that Samoan that I encountered many moons ago to repay me a reminder visit.:baby:

mashman
28th February 2012, 17:19
Yeah I have all that, even have (surprising seeing as I had some rather major arguments with them) copies of emails from the hosting company saying that my bill was reasonable and the work I said I did was logical for the issue at hand.

Doesn't make the bastards pay though.

That suckin fucks... sorry to hear that, but I guess it's just the way some people do business.

thecharmed01
28th February 2012, 17:48
That suckin fucks... sorry to hear that, but I guess it's just the way some people do business.

I know, it's funny too. The big companies pay up when the invoice is sent.
Seems to me that the smaller the outfit, the crappier they are at paying their bills.
I'm probably gonna end up at DT over this one though as their whole attitude SUCKS. I'm irritated as hell. I've not had a single client in 15 years that's been as frustrating as these guys.

One thing I am giggling about though, is that I never gave them full admin access. I only gave them a limited access account and they have no way to gain a password for the key admin account - it's under my email address.
They haven't the know-how to crack the db and it's all encrypted and I have the key.
They can't update the system ever. They also can't remove all the security messages and popups.
Nor can they change any preferences..... or access 3/4 of the backend capabilities as I was slowly giving them more access, as I'd trained them on the functions and they emailed me that they didn't require any further training *facepalm*
All they can do is load products and do the basic sales stuff. When they realise what they cannot do and access they will be pissy I'm guessing LOL

They've spent months inputting products, so I'm going to be the one giggling when they realize they are pretty much stuck and that I won't release the info they need till their account situation is rectified. As long as they are in the red, they get nothing.

mashman
28th February 2012, 18:05
I know, it's funny too. The big companies pay up when the invoice is sent.
Seems to me that the smaller the outfit, the crappier they are at paying their bills.
I'm probably gonna end up at DT over this one though as their whole attitude SUCKS. I'm irritated as hell. I've not had a single client in 15 years that's been as frustrating as these guys.

One thing I am giggling about though, is that I never gave them full admin access. I only gave them a limited access account and they have no way to gain a password for the key admin account - it's under my email address.
They haven't the know-how to crack the db and it's all encrypted and I have the key.
They can't update the system ever. They also can't remove all the security messages and popups.
Nor can they change any preferences..... or access 3/4 of the backend capabilities as I was slowly giving them more access, as I'd trained them on the functions and they emailed me that they didn't require any further training *facepalm*
All they can do is load products and do the basic sales stuff. When they realise what they cannot do and access they will be pissy I'm guessing LOL

They've spent months inputting products, so I'm going to be the one giggling when they realize they are pretty much stuck and that I won't release the info they need till their account situation is rectified. As long as they are in the red, they get nothing.

Gloating is so unbecoming :shifty:... if they haven't paid why haven't you pulled the site? or did you just build add-ons that you protected oh so wisely :eek:

thecharmed01
28th February 2012, 18:10
Gloating is so unbecoming :shifty:... if they haven't paid why haven't you pulled the site? or did you just build add-ons that you protected oh so wisely :eek:

I can't pull the site, as they are hosting it with a host they chose, it's out of my control.
I'd love to pull it but I'd have to hack a server hahaha

jrandom
28th February 2012, 18:12
What a squalid little industry it is.

mashman
28th February 2012, 18:13
I can't pull the site, as they are hosting it with a host they chose, it's out of my control.
I'd love to pull it but I'd have to hack a server hahaha

Do you own the IP and copyright?

jrandom
28th February 2012, 18:16
Do you own the IP and copyright?

Undoubtedly she does, because the client wouldn't have a clue that such things might've been involved. They just wanted a website.

They probably also had no idea how much it would cost until the invoices started to flow.

I'm sure thecharmed01 sits at home with her shoe collection and congratulates herself on her commercial perspicacity.

mashman
28th February 2012, 18:27
Undoubtedly she does, because the client wouldn't have a clue that such things might've been involved. They just wanted a website.

They probably also had no idea how much it would cost until the invoices started to flow.

I'm sure thecharmed01 sits at home with her shoe collection and congratulates herself on her commercial perspicacity.

What, the client didn't know they'd have to pay?

I'm surprised they're still in business if that's the case.

The shoe collection things just gettin me hot... and the big word almost brought on the scooby doo face.

jrandom
28th February 2012, 18:31
What, the client didn't know they'd have to pay?

It's surprising (or perhaps not) how your average person has no idea of what's involved in software development.

And it's taken me a solid decade in the industry to develop a reasonably accurate ability to estimate time and cost.

I will fall over in shock if thecharmed01 can assert with a straight face that she gave those clients a quote for the job before starting that was within an order of magnitude of the amount of money she's trying to get out of them now.


The shoe collection things just gettin me hot...

Me too.


the big word almost brought on the scooby doo face.

Running around, robbing banks...

thecharmed01
28th February 2012, 18:44
It's surprising (or perhaps not) how your average person has no idea of what's involved in software development.

And it's taken me a solid decade in the industry to develop a reasonably accurate ability to estimate time and cost.

I will fall over in shock if thecharmed01 can assert with a straight face that she gave those clients a quote for the job before starting that was within an order of magnitude of the amount of money she's trying to get out of them now..

Not sure what you are implying, but the original site build was paid for in full.

The money owing is actually pretty minimal. About $500 and it's for rescuing the site when they crashed it.
I didn't quote them for the repair work to get them back online. I told them my hourly rate and they authorised me to do what was necessary to get the site back online.

mashman
28th February 2012, 18:44
It's surprising (or perhaps not) how your average person has no idea of what's involved in software development.

And it's taken me a solid decade in the industry to develop a reasonably accurate ability to estimate time and cost.

I will fall over in shock if thecharmed01 can assert with a straight face that she gave those clients a quote for the job before starting that was within an order of magnitude of the amount of money she's trying to get out of them now.


Kinda took me by surprise too... especially when the CEO sits you down and asks you what you do under the guise of, "well you're only putting a box on a web page.".

heh, I took the easy route and asked someone. The answer: X for a web page, X for an interactive web page and X for a "content managed" web page... pretty much bang on too when evened out over a project.

Praps the original quote was spot on and the customer indulged in a little scope creep, I know that happens from time to time too.

thecharmed01
28th February 2012, 18:46
Do you own the IP and copyright?

Of course not. That's the property of the client.
I'm only a contractor. None of that's my business.

jrandom
28th February 2012, 18:48
Not sure what you are implying, but the original site build was paid for in full.

They can't be such terrible customers then. And I retract my inference that you raped them on the initial development.

:sunny:

Ever read The Mythical Man-Month (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mythical_Man-Month)?


The money owing is actually pretty minimal. About $500 and it's for rescuing the site when they crashed it... I told them my hourly rate and they authorised me to do what was necessary to get the site back online.

How long's the bill been dangling now?

mashman
28th February 2012, 18:50
Of course not. That's the property of the client.
I'm only a contractor. None of that's my business.

bloody contractors :innocent:

thecharmed01
28th February 2012, 18:53
They can't be such terrible customers then. And I retract my inference that you raped them on the initial development.

:sunny:

Ever read The Mythical Man-Month (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mythical_Man-Month)?



How long's the bill been dangling now?

It was due in December.
There have been many emails though, they have been trying desperately to get out of paying it, by saying that because they can't understand how it happened, they shouldn't have to pay for it *rolls eyes*

Initially they weren't that bad, they followed the terms of our agreement and things were fine.
It's only this invoice they are digging the heels in over and while I can see it from their perspective, I also know that if I tried to pull that shit with a contractor, they'd feel exactly as I do.

I did put it to them that it's like having a short suddenly appear in your house wiring after you have been doing minor home improvements. You find out it's there because something goes wrong, and it was fine before.
So you call an electrician and tell them to "just fix it"
He does and bills you.
Do you then complain that "you didn't know how you had done that, therefore you refuse to pay his bill" and expect that this excuse will fly?

jrandom
28th February 2012, 18:56
Of course not. That's the property of the client.
I'm only a contractor.

You are a credit to your profession and I salute you. It's a pleasure to have had this line of questioning turn out thus.

I made a whole pile of pocket money in my spare time over a several month period some years back, basically re-implementing a bunch of shit for a smallish company that wound up over a barrel because they contracted for a bespoke mini-MIS database thrown together with VB and InterBase (back in the Borland days) and didn't realise that the contractor had retained the IP.

Of course the relationship with their developer subsequently broke down irretrievably.

Poor bastards.

They couldn't get hold of the source code. All they could do was limp along with the release they had while I twiddled around the fringes writing standalone reports and whatnot.

They remained dependent on me over subsequent years for occasional tweaks. I never had the heart to decline the work, even though I'd only done it in the first place because my dad was the manager (he moved on not long after I got involved).

thecharmed01
28th February 2012, 19:06
I have no issue with them having the source code. They have it all on their server, not that they know what to do with it.

I also have no issue with them having the site really.

I'm just frustrated with the way they've gone since the crash, they have essentially stopped me completing my work which is annoying. My OCD hates unfinished stuff.
I also hate having bills outstanding.

If they would just pay it, then I'd send them through the final documentation and root passwords, then it's up to them what they do with it.
It'd be out of my hair.

wharekura
28th February 2012, 19:14
Maybe some sort of support agreement may have helped this entire situation.
Also, it seems the minor amount of $500 with your experience in business of 15 years that this particular case should be written off - say to them as a one-off goodwill gesture will do this for now, but anything further incurs support fees.
All this tit-for-tat and holding of keys seems a little :baby:ish even though I understand its not your fault.
Let it go. Move on.

thecharmed01
29th February 2012, 08:10
I might have if they had gone about things differently.
But they took the route where they blamed me for it, and that's where I pretty much drew the line.
I refuse to take the blame for something I had nothing to do with, and to let it go would be to accept that the fault was mine - which it wasn't. My work is solid.

wharekura
29th February 2012, 08:26
hiya - when i mean letting go, I did not mean part of that letting go was taking the blame - in your case. Without letting go, the bitterness disrupts your creativeness and life in general (recall Master Yoda's words) I dont believe in the stars but Cancerians find it hard to let go. Before I use to be the most angry person :mad: for hating everything in life because of this and that :yawn: Blaming society and everything around me - your typical streetkid. Some years ago someone showed me how to "let go" and have become a better tax payer citizen for it.

Now, I've been in the programming profession for many years, a nice humble home, a wonderful wife, enough kids to erase any spare time and recently a gv250 :scooter:

thecharmed01
29th February 2012, 09:14
Fair call!
Thankfully I don't think it's disrupting my creative flow, I was only thinking about it again when this thread came up.

I'm also not doing anywhere near as much coding nowadays and a lot more Photography and people like that are what puts me off the industry.

I have a Wedding to shoot on Saturday, and am currently on call for a NB shoot whatever day they release Mum & Bub from the hospital as he was a wee premmie. Hopefully this afternoon or tomorrow morning.
I can't wait! I just love new babies and he is the tiniest wee thing!
Friday I'm doing a creative shoot involving an old school gold chrome low rider bike, a hot tattooed burlesque performer with very few clothes on and the beach. So hoping for some nice cloudy weather so we get some sky with as much attitude as she does.

My photography clients make coding worthwhile. Cause coding bought pretty much all my camera gear.

wharekura
29th February 2012, 09:32
:shit: my wife is an ex-pro photographer and she gave that up (to be in accounts of all things!) because she didnt like being restricted to be doing things like wedding shots.

avgas
29th February 2012, 10:10
Kinda took me by surprise too... especially when the CEO sits you down and asks you what you do under the guise of, "well you're only putting a box on a web page.".

heh, I took the easy route and asked someone. The answer: X for a web page, X for an interactive web page and X for a "content managed" web page... pretty much bang on too when evened out over a project.

Praps the original quote was spot on and the customer indulged in a little scope creep, I know that happens from time to time too.
Yes and No.
Consider yourself lucky that you call your own shots. I just did a job recently for a SCADA client. Sales guy quoted 40 hours. I would have estimated at 60 hours for the stuff that was possibly (about 1/3 of the scope) and 2/3rds impossible unless I built a parallel program from scratch to run independent from the SCADA (1000's of hours).
Did everything I could as close to what scope said - with some variations that I explained to the customer on site. Took 120 hours.
It was all completely automated so they saw NOTHING on the screen - but would receive a print out whenever 1 of the 50 alarms occurred a (50 x 30 lines of pure code for each.....each needed to be tested.......not to mention the first 30 hours it took for the first one to even work completely in the background before the rest would be possible.) Some hardware was installed on site and took about a day to configure operation. But now its in a box it seems to have disappeared from sight and once again ignored.
Then there was some automation code to make everything run fluently in the background and generate some weekly reports. (Approx another 2-3000 lines).
So long story short - 120 hours clocked up.

They don't want to pay. They say the scope is not complete. I explain that the scope was completed as close to what was possible on their system.
We don't charge the 120 hours, we charge 40 + hardware.

They compromise and say 1/3 work was done, so they pay 1/3 of bill and quote figure 1/3 of total bill. Provided I pull magic dust out of my arse and fix the other 2/3rds.
Their figure is still wrong as 1/4 of original quote was hardware........which they have in their hot little hands. So realistically they should be paying almost half the bill if 1/3 of the engineering worked and 100% of the hardware works.

Fucking joke. Bill for the 40hours + hardware is now being pushed to Baycorp. Let the legals battle it out.

I tell my boss 1 simple message.
"If I am to do any work for them in future. I will do it on site - with them watching over me so they know EXACTLY how many hours I am spending on their work, and they pay me for EVERY HOUR".
I am not going back to that site on any other terms.

wharekura
29th February 2012, 11:36
What - you dont have magic dust ready to deploy from one's rectum at a moments notice? I go one better and have a crystal ball so I can tell the customers exactly how much something is going to cost before I look at the job. BUT WAIT THERES MORE - I somehow am able to reduce the quote by fractions and provide more features. Mate - I'm marvelous.

mashman
29th February 2012, 11:39
Yes and No.
Consider yourself lucky that you call your own shots. I just did a job recently for a SCADA client. Sales guy quoted 40 hours.

...SNIP...

I tell my boss 1 simple message.
"If I am to do any work for them in future. I will do it on site - with them watching over me so they know EXACTLY how many hours I am spending on their work, and they pay me for EVERY HOUR".
I am not going back to that site on any other terms.

I don't call my own shots, I very much do as I'm told... but I've been around long enough to expect shit documentation, or at least incomplete documentation.

Thought the SNIP spot was apt... PM's, BA's, Sales guys, Analysts etc... imho none of them should be allowed to do those jobs, on a development project, until they have 10 years coding behind them.

:rofl:... I've mentioned that to a few before. If they think it's so bloody easy, let them sit by me for a week. The black art of the black box where people say it's only a text box and a button always makes has me laughing. Funny really, just shows how little these people understand how their own business works.

avgas
29th February 2012, 12:11
What - you dont have magic dust ready to deploy from one's rectum at a moments notice? I go one better and have a crystal ball so I can tell the customers exactly how much something is going to cost before I look at the job. BUT WAIT THERES MORE - I somehow am able to reduce the quote by fractions and provide more features. Mate - I'm marvelous.
Mate you are an array of wonder :lol:

wharekura
29th February 2012, 18:01
if u have not been following, i do c#, hence we do lists now and not those clumsy arrays. :no:

mashman
29th February 2012, 18:31
if u have not been following, i do c#, hence we do lists now and not those clumsy arrays. :no:

it's all arrays of 1's and 0's isn't it? even a string is a convenient 20 bytes of an array :innocent:

jrandom
29th February 2012, 18:43
it's all arrays of 1's and 0's isn't it?

No, a list doesn't have to be contiguous in memory.

mashman
29th February 2012, 18:54
No, a list doesn't have to be contiguous in memory.

I didn't say it was. I fully understand that not all blocks of memory are full due to memory compaction. Not much of a worry these days though eh.

wharekura
29th February 2012, 19:59
im glad im not team leading u fellas, it will make me drink my unfinished lemoncello.
1. u underestimate your jobs
2. ur customer service is obviously crap
3. this leads to ur communication skills are as subtle as Mana Partly's manifesto
4. and expect customers to pay outrageous amounts of dollars on your poorly made products

i am thinking a bit of reprogramming of your personalities are in order and then maybe some ordered logic might slip in, if we are lucky.


(im being sarcastic if anyone took the above the wrong way)

DangerMice
29th February 2012, 20:02
^^ heh heh nice

mashman
29th February 2012, 20:26
im glad im not team leading u fellas, it will make me drink my unfinished lemoncello.
1. u underestimate your jobs
2. ur customer service is obviously crap
3. this leads to ur communication skills are as subtle as Mana Partly's manifesto
4. and expect customers to pay outrageous amounts of dollars on your poorly made products

i am thinking a bit of reprogramming of your personalities are in order and then maybe some ordered logic might slip in, if we are lucky.


(im being sarcastic if anyone took the above the wrong way)

The customers/clients have made us this way.

thecharmed01
29th February 2012, 20:41
What - you dont have magic dust ready to deploy from one's rectum at a moments notice? I go one better and have a crystal ball so I can tell the customers exactly how much something is going to cost before I look at the job. BUT WAIT THERES MORE - I somehow am able to reduce the quote by fractions and provide more features. Mate - I'm marvelous.

Can you come work with my clients? LOL

DangerMice
29th February 2012, 21:48
I had one of those days today where you're completely in the zone and cranking code out at a huge rate. Before I knew it was 4:30 and time to go home (I start early). Felt like I'd been there for half an hour so I took the long way home as a reward.

:scooter:

avgas
29th February 2012, 22:24
No, a list doesn't have to be contiguous in memory.
Until its sent down a comms link.
*shakes violently remembering bad memories*

Fucking FIFO buffers. Y U NO ALWAYS FIFO ALL TIME!!!!

avgas
29th February 2012, 22:28
im glad im not team leading u fellas, it will make me drink my unfinished lemoncello.
1. u underestimate your jobs
2. ur customer service is obviously crap
3. this leads to ur communication skills are as subtle as Mana Partly's manifesto
4. and expect customers to pay outrageous amounts of dollars on your poorly made products
1. Yes - its called "buying the work"........it'll all come out in the VARIATIONS
2. I wish. Wankers keep coming back.
3. Nah more Nationals stance of "THEY STARTED IT FIRST!!!, I simply argued back".
4. They expect fairy dust out of my arse and I expect to never have to work another day in my life. Somewhere in between we compromise - which means both parties lose something.

sil3nt
29th February 2012, 22:29
I had one of those days today where you're completely in the zone and cranking code out at a huge rate. Before I knew it was 4:30 and time to go home (I start early). Felt like I'd been there for half an hour so I took the long way home as a reward.

:scooter:Those days are good days. Unless your working at home and before you realise it the time is 2am and you have to get up in a few hours for work. The joys of being a student.

DangerMice
29th February 2012, 22:47
Those days are good days. Unless your working at home and before you realise it the time is 2am and you have to get up in a few hours for work. The joys of being a student.

Oh yes, they are also the joys of working on your own projects & moonlighting as a contractor. :pinch:

wharekura
1st March 2012, 19:28
i thought i would contribute to let u know i too get the same "customer billing" issues as you all do. i had a customer saying they were not happy paying a small amount of my time to see if the concept they want to use would work or not. I like the customer so it was nothing to do with angst. It is my type of work (database stuff with some web servicing probably) so it wasnt an issue of the complete unknown. But it is integrating data that we designed and serve with a web service done by a third party. In fairness I thought it would be better to be UPFRONT and say to them I need some time to have an initial look into it.

This way, if they cant be bothered paying a small amount for an initial review, would the customer even pay the full cost? most probably not.
If they willing to pay the time upfront and it turns out to be a major job - at least both customer and technician can cut losses before it blows out.

Hey, if someone has magic dust up their deployment zone and can do everything in 5 minutes (usual ranting from boss or customer) then they are most welcome to it. Im too old to bow down to that type of crap pressure anymore.

Flame away.

Update: I did the same approach for another customer recently and they have approved the research time. As we all and should understand, all customers are different and even the same customer will have an on/off day.