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wkid_one
21st December 2003, 14:59
Police probe damns car chase tactics
21 December 2003
By DEIDRE MUSSEN

Police officers often launch high-speed chases without telling their bosses for fear of being told to abandon pursuit. And some ignore commands to pull out, while others join pursuits without permission.


These are some of the revelations contained in a damning internal report on high-speed chases.

The draft report, obtained by the Sunday Star-Times, calls for an urgent overhaul of policies and comes at the end of the blackest year in police pursuit history with 10 people killed to date - four of them this week.This year's tally is the worst since records began 24 years ago.

The move has pleased families grieving the deaths of their loved ones in police chases.

"Pursuits: Time to Change", written by a high-powered review team, said current rules and policies on pursuits were a confusing "mish mash".

It was unclear who controlled pursuits, abandoning them was misunderstood, rules were contradictory and exceeding speed limit policies were inconsistent, it said.

"In light of that, the present confusion cannot be allowed to continue a minute longer," it said.

One constant theme ran though its 115 pages, it said: "Something must be done about police pursuits in New Zealand and done now. That something ought to be both decisive and in many respects radical. Simply tinkering about at the edges will not do."

It said the 1996 Gibson review of police pursuits had been largely left to gather dust. "The earlier chapters in this report paint a sorry picture. Lost opportunities and lack of decision have led to muddle. At best this is awkward and difficult to explain away. But much more importantly it can have severe legal consequences. Further, it does nothing to prevent injury or death, which can and sometimes do follow from police pursuits," the report said.

It also called for an urgent introduction of police driver training for staff.

The report was tabled to police bosses the day before Thursday's horrific triple fatality, which happened seconds after a brief police chase was abandoned in Auckland. On Friday, a man drowned when the car he was driving plunged into the Tauranga Harbour several minutes after police lost him during their inner city chase.

Widespread concerns over fatal police chases prompted police deputy commissioner (operations) Steve Long to commission the review in July. "I think it's time for change as the report says. We have got to be brutally honest with ourselves whether things are working or whether they aren't working. We have to almost shake ourselves and say 'For goodness sake, let's sort this out'," Long said yesterday.

Grieving Blenheim dad Mike Devine agreed. His son, Jeffrey, 17, was killed in October when he crashed his car into a truck while fleeing pursuing police on SH 1 between Blenheim and Picton.

Devine said police told him they thought his son looked like he was speeding but had not clocked him on radar. They chased him for 5.5km at speeds up to 140kph before the crash.

"Jeff did wrong and he should've stopped but we think the end result was because of police chasing him.

"Why didn't they just leave him and speak to him later? They had his number. They're happy to ring an old lady who has been burgled and say they'll see her in a few days but they want to chase young guys who might just be going a bit fast."

Northland architect Bryon Burgess supported the proposed changes, which he learned about last week in a meeting with Long. His daughter, Erin, 18, was killed when a speeding motorcyclist being chased by police crashed into her car south of Whangarei in May. Motorcyclist Kuran Brunton also died.

"We still believe police should be able to pursue but there has to be guidelines and anything that is going to make them better must be a good thing. But at the end of the day, it will come down to whether the cops in the cars obey orders."

Last week Northland coroner Max Atkins called for big changes to police pursuit policy in light of the double fatality. He criticised police for poor communication because a second patrol car joined the chase after the first car was told to abandon it. The chase spanned 29 kilometres and reached 205km/h in speed.

North Shore-Waitakere-Rodney district commander Superintendent Roger Carson led the review team of six senior road policing staff. Four other police staff helped, with a reference group of 13 police group representatives and 12 other experts, who included former Formula One car racer Chris Amon, former Police Complaints Authority Sir John Jeffries, the Automobile Association's George Fairbairn and Transit New Zealand network operations manager Dave Bates.

While the final report would be completed next month, Long said district commanders were asked on Thursday to urgently tell all police officers that they must abandon a pursuit and pull over if ordered to by the communication centre. It would also be reiterated that the communication centre was in control of a chase.

Training would urgently begin for officers on assessing risks before starting a pursuit. Officers and controllers would also get training on chase scenarios.

"I think what we have to do is to encourage our officers to see the big picture - public safety and enforcement of the law," Long said.

He predicted fewer pursuits as police became more selective in starting them.

In another urgent step, fulltime police driving trainers would be employed early next year for each of the 12 police districts to assess and improve officers' skills for urgent duty driving.

And a trial would begin in Auckland next month with more than 60 patrol cars getting locator beacons installed, linked to a global positioning system in the communication centre to show the cars' location and speed.

Long admitted there was anecdotal evidence that some police officers were not following pursuit rules, such as failing to abandon a chase despite being ordered to.

However, he stressed that police pursuits were very rare because most people pulled over when asked.

According to the report, one car out of every 4000 cars signalled to stop, was pursued in the year to July 1 - 884 motorists out of 3.5 million.

"The majority of the pursuits are handled professionally and handled well," Long said.

Motu
21st December 2003, 15:37
CHOICE !!! I'm gunna do a runner next time I see a cop,then laugh when he can't go over the speed limit to catch me.Might even kill someone if I feel like it - they'll blame it on the cops anyway.

750Y
21st December 2003, 19:04
CHOICE !!! I'm gunna do a runner next time I see a cop,then laugh when he can't go over the speed limit to catch me.Might even kill someone if I feel like it - they'll blame it on the cops anyway.
that's one possible scenario in terms of peoples attitudes.
I think the point is that you are gonna get chased until one of you makes a nasty mistake or gets away. the report clearly demonstrates that no-one's playing by the rules in these situations, look at the scoreboard!. blame is too late. I hope that guy that killed 3 people stays in jail forever, but i'd prefer he got a peice of lead instead & i didn't have to pay to house,feed and legally represent his sorry ass through my taxes. oh by the way why would they even treat him in hospital why not just let him die slowly of his injuries at the dump.
um... did that sound too harsh? sorry, just venting my displeasure.
anyways i hope things are improved somewhat where it counts.

James Deuce
21st December 2003, 22:02
that's one possible scenario in terms of peoples attitudes.
I think the point is that you are gonna get chased until one of you makes a nasty mistake or gets away. the report clearly demonstrates that no-one's playing by the rules in these situations, look at the scoreboard!. blame is too late. I hope that guy that killed 3 people stays in jail forever, but i'd prefer he got a peice of lead instead & i didn't have to pay to house,feed and legally represent his sorry ass through my taxes. oh by the way why would they even treat him in hospital why not just let him die slowly of his injuries at the dump.
um... did that sound too harsh? sorry, just venting my displeasure.
anyways i hope things are improved somewhat where it counts.

The dude was driving a car - it would be highly unlikely that he would get anything approaching the type of sentence someone would get if they went Postal and killed 3 workmates with a gun. You can ruin people's lives with a motor vehicle and both the ACC "clean up" and the language used to describe murder by vehicle as an "accident" tends to "queer the pitch" so to speak. "I didn't see you" is the classic abrogation of responsibility on the part of the initiator of an MVA. That SHOULD be an admission of guilt; instead it is used as an excuse to diminish the severity of the punishment. Well it has in the 4 accidents where I've been fed that line. Not one of the bastards that has injured me has ever had the guts to apologise in person either.

marty
22nd December 2003, 09:44
there was a nasty crash in hamilton in the weekend, where a loser driving a stolen car lost control, ran over a man out walking his dog, killing the man and his dog, trapping them under under the car. the driver ran off.

the police were no-where to be seen. they weren't even chasing him.

i don't hear everyone jumping up and down over that, even though it is a total tragedy.

wkid_one
22nd December 2003, 09:51
Is this not NZ's way tho? We piss and moan about the crimes and criminals - and then do the physical equivalent of slapping them on the hand with a wet bus ticket when sentencing. I must concur with the Tougher Sentencing push in NZ.

It is funny how you can destroy someones life by taking it entirely (not to mention their family, friends etc)......then be out in 7 years to enjoy yours again.

If you were so inclined, the best way to kill someone in NZ would be with a vehicle. For all the fuss we make about making our roads safer - our maximum sentences are still pitiful.

Shit - $170 for doing 129kph??? Get serious - if you want to reduce speeding - have means tested fines like Sweden. Bump the bloody things up....make it hurt. Most NZ'ers will have more focus on the $$$$$ than anything (that is of course if they bother to pay)......

I better get off my soap box now - getting vertigo

merv
22nd December 2003, 11:28
Shit - $170 for doing 129kph??? Get serious - if you want to reduce speeding - have means tested fines like Sweden.

.. and doing 300km/hr like you used to do on the R1 should have cost how much?

wkid_one
22nd December 2003, 11:35
Most likely my life. But really - lost of license, bike, probably freedom for a period......

But alas that was then

Timber020
22nd December 2003, 15:37
The fine system stinks. The ideas of fines are to be a deterent and punishment equal to all citizens. The thing is that how is it even to fine someone who earns 25,000 a year or someone who makes over 70,000 a year the same amount?
I know some very well paid reps that just consider speed camera pictures a common business expence, one got a $270 fine a while back and just commented that he had made that by 10 that morning. If a student or lower wage earner gets the same fine, goddam that hurts.
The swedish system is better, fine reflects what you earn, some IT tycoon got something like a million dollar fine for speeding, now thats justice :niceone:

Motu
22nd December 2003, 16:27
Or try being an urgent courier like my daughter - parking tickets,speeding fines and dings are day to day life,just part of buisness expences,11 hours a day non stop in the city,it's just a matter of time.

jrandom
22nd December 2003, 16:47
how is it even to fine someone who earns 25,000 a year or someone who makes over 70,000 a year the same amount?

Not everyone who makes over 70K a year has the same amount of cash spare for fines, dude. Are you going to penalise the young asshole of a solicitor or accountant who has nothing better to do with his cash than spend it on party drugs the same as you penalise the hardworking man with a mortgage and a family who happens to have the same income level?

I'm afraid that it's difficult to argue 'fairness' unless everyone pays the same amount. Of course, that argument imples that we should all be paying a poll tax for the privilege of citizenship, instead of (whatever) percent at (whatever) income level, so I'm not sure I can argue for either position...

buggrit, I really don't give a sh*t anyway :whocares:

SPman
22nd December 2003, 17:04
Looks like the cops are damned if they do and damned if they dont.
Have they ever thought that they would get a lot more sympathy and co-operation if they stopped developing this "fuck you" attitude to the general public?

Lou Girardin
23rd December 2003, 08:46
Good point SPman.
If there are so many maniacs on our roads, why do we want to aggravate the situation with hyped up cops that think a chase is 'fun'.
Get used to stories about fatal pursuits, because it will get a lot worse. The attitude seems to be; if you are going to lose your licence for 40km/h over, what have you got to lose?
And isn't it strange that in the Whangarei pursuit the cops considered 205km/h not dangerous. Yet recently, when they checked a car at 207km/h in the same area, also at night, it became suicidal.
It's the extra 2km/h that makes the difference.
Lou

wkid_one
23rd December 2003, 09:15
It is interesting that in the States the cops will often call on support from Line Haul drivers to use their rigs as rolling road blocks - I would be interested to know what the NZ reaction to such a request would be?? Being heavily involved in the transport industry - I could guess.......and the reply wouldn't be that nice.

jrandom
23rd December 2003, 09:31
It is interesting that in the States the cops will often call on support from Line Haul drivers to use their rigs as rolling road blocks - I would be interested to know what the NZ reaction to such a request would be??

(fx: snorts, chokes, gags, falls over)

Um. That would be WORTH the cops suggesting, just so that the reactions could be televised.

madandy
23rd December 2003, 15:37
Do the crime pay the fine(or the time!)regardless of income.We all face the same punnishment for more serious crimes.

Someone who makes good coin may well have a very good vehicle which makes a given speed safer[for instance an Audi RS6 is safer at 160k's than a hotted up '85 corrolla!And an Abs equipped tourer is safer at that speed than my RF400] than some low paid labourer or student who has a cheap as machine that is not as safe at that given speed...Of course it all comes down to how the machine is operated as to how safe that speed really is but this is a generalisation

Timber020
23rd December 2003, 17:16
They may well do but how about the rich cellphone talking, taking kids to school mother in her Ford (I roll for corners and stop for nothing) Explorer vs the pro truck driver in his subaru legacy?

My point is that there is less deterent to people who can afford it, and its supposed to be an equal deterent to everyone.

bluninja
23rd December 2003, 17:38
My point is that there is less deterent to people who can afford it, and its supposed to be an equal deterent to everyone.
Sheesh, so many people with chips on their shoulder about people having money:doctor: So losing your licence...or in extreme cases being banged up in prison isn't a deterrent to wealthy people. Oh I see, these rich people will probably have a chauffer for when losing the licence, and have been to boarding school, so prison should be a breeze.:rolleyes:

The UK went with fines based on ability to pay....and withdrew it soon afterwards. Nearly everyone went to court; and those with money gave up their jobs and took a big holiday to show no income and no funds....so the fines ended up being less, and the cost of recovering them more.

And back to the thread....no not yet......if a wealthy person was going to get slapped with a $30,000 fine would this increase, or decrease the chances of them doing a runner?

Maybe the solution to some of the issues is to make all the police do 20 laps on a track at arce pace before they start a duty...at least they will have had their adrenalin rush before they get involved in a pursuit...it may help police recruitment too:bigthumb:

Timber020
23rd December 2003, 19:08
if a wealthy person was going to get slapped with a $30,000 fine would this increase, or decrease the chances of them doing a runner?



Thats part of the point Im trying to make, why run if you can afford it, why follow the law if you can afford the camera ticket? Im not making any point about the rich and poor, im trying to make the point that fines are supposed to be an deterant for all people. Speeding fines are not what i worry about, its those ugly points off my license. As for camera tickets? Big worry for some, no worry for others. wheres the deterent?

madandy
24th December 2003, 19:34
No fines are not meant to be a deterrent!They are just a way for politicians to pull in more cash for their grand plan...and boxershorts;)
They brought in cameras 'cause some bright spark with an eye for capitalism saw a missed opportunity to gather funds...Hmm, everyone's speeding...shall we slow 'em down or bring in a "tax" on speeders!lol

Demerits and license/vehicle confiscation are a detterent and so is jail time...I hear in Japan they have 'traffic prison'!!!!!!

EZAS
14th February 2006, 15:26
If you fly past a cop at 280kmh then slow down to around 220k as not to over do it, but he keeps tailing even though he's pushing the car to its edge and your just cruising.

Then you slow down as you come to an off ramp and he RAMS you, WHO THE FUCK RAMS A BIKE, so the front wheel pops up into a 12 oclock wheelie, you've got no 12 oclock wheelie experience AT ALL on a +200kg bike, and you almost colide with the Van that is only going around 80-100kmh in front of you because of this cowboys tailing acts.
IS THAT CONSIDERED FUCKING DANGEROUS? DO YOU THINK ANY SENIOUR SERGEANT WOULD ALLOW THAT BULLSHIT ON OUR ROADS by any Hero behind a cop car?

In my opinion, if you try doing a runner from a traffic officer, 'they' believe they have the right to try and kill you.

Demerit's don't do f*cking anything, loosing your liscence but still having the keys and car/bike :D is that a joke? And there is no space in our prisons for a 5 time D.I.C criminal who's just got done for his 6th time. (Actually he got 3 weeks and then was let out). Our traffic laws are there only to make revenue, thankyou very much for you kind donation.

pritch
14th February 2006, 15:46
The fine system stinks.

Amen to that.

One instance locally involved a woman who crossed a double yellow line and killed a motorcyclist. She was a Doctor (medical) and for all I know her husband was a Doctor also as is often the case.

She was fined $1000. F%*#'n peanuts!

RIP Carl

Sniper
14th February 2006, 15:47
Good point, but note the date of thread start?

marty
14th February 2006, 17:45
the first clue should have been the thread author....

cowpoos
14th February 2006, 18:44
The fine system stinks. The ideas of fines are to be a deterent and punishment equal to all citizens. The thing is that how is it even to fine someone who earns 25,000 a year or someone who makes over 70,000 a year the same amount?
I know some very well paid reps that just consider speed camera pictures a common business expence, one got a $270 fine a while back and just commented that he had made that by 10 that morning. If a student or lower wage earner gets the same fine, goddam that hurts.
The swedish system is better, fine reflects what you earn, some IT tycoon got something like a million dollar fine for speeding, now thats justice :niceone:

bullshit...if thats what you wanna winge about go get a better job or up skill...I can't stand people winging about shit like that...small minds...get off ya lazy arse and make your life better....christ sake.....if your poor and u kill someone same sentance....you get caught speeding you pay the fuckin fine no matter what you earn....

WINJA
14th February 2006, 19:26
Good point, but note the date of thread start?
THIS THREAD WILL BE OUT OF DATE WHEN THE PIGS LEARN FROM THEIR MISTAKES ,WHICH WILL BE NEVER . DDDDRRRRRR IM A STUPID NZ COP LETS CHASE SOMEONE TILL PEOPLE DIE , FUCKEN MORONS

Indoo
14th February 2006, 19:38
Your getting progressively thicker and less funny every time you post Winja. Is it the water your drinking or do you wake up each morning and punch yourself in the head to stop those braincells from regenerating?

WINJA
14th February 2006, 19:47
Your getting progressively thicker and less funny every time you post Winja. Is it the water your drinking or do you wake up each morning and punch yourself in the head to stop those braincells from regenerating?
IT WASNT MEANT TO BE FUNNY , AND I THINK ITS QUITE ACCURATE YOU FUCKEN MORON