How hard can it be?

[Geordie_Biker6]

I havnt been riding (or on this forum) for about the last 12 months while i fix my bike up. As im on here more regularly, I'm starting to remember the hatred/dislike for "cagers". Now I know a lot of people will say "yeah, i drive a car but i ride bikes too so its different". When youre riding around and start mouthing off to "cagers" inside your helmet, its the same, you dont know which of them ride bikes too... Anyway, Bikers are always saying about how car drivers need to do a bit of riding or extra training in cars to get things from our perspective, and i fully agree. However, the chances of that happening are very slim and we all know it. Yet many people always blame the cagers and never consider to upskill ourselves even though there are a vast selection of courses available to riders of all levels, on the track and on the road, available in most parts of the country, many of which are cheap and subsidised by ACC (meaning theyre normally around 1/2 price and about $50 for a basic 3 hour course. And still people refuse to upskill themselves because "its not our problem". This bloody annoys me. I dont know about you but id much rather spend a few hunderd dollars getting some quality training improving many aspects of my riding that will stay with me for my days then say, a shiny muffler thats 2db louder! Or few grand and a trip to the hospital when lack of training puts you face first into the side of a car very suddenly. For the price and time it takes the courses are fantastic and one of the best improvements you can make to your riding. No good putting sticky diablos on if you cant use them properly.

Theres my rant for the day. Go and get rid of those flat spots on the tires.

GB

[Grubber]

Well said! I agree entirely with you on this one. I have been riding for about 40 years. I have raced and ridin quite fast over the years. I have had 2 accidents in all those years and 1 was my own fault for going tooo hot into a corner and the other was another persons fault.
Some years ago i did a couple of coarse's that changed a few things in the way i rode and improved my ability to be more aware of my surroundings as well as my general riding style.
Then a couple of years ago i started doing the California Superbike school and that changed my riding a huge ammount. Now at 54 years old i ride with a lot more confidence and understanding of how my bike should be ridin.
Don't get me wrong, i could ride pretty well before this, but the understanding of the technical concept of riding has made me a far better rider than i was. Knowing how to see through corners and be more aware of my surroundings has prevented me from having any accidents at all. Over the last 20+ years i have never had even a close call of any kind. I now have the ability to recognise a potential risk way ahead of it ever becoming a total risk.
Every now and then i take a ride and see other bikes out there enjoying the day, and i often think to myself, do they really know how to ride those things. Even this weekend just gone, i was in my work vehicle heading out to Waimuaku way, seeing people riding large cruisers all dressed up in the usual gear (german helmet, white T shirt, vest and jeans etc) that took an absolute etternty to go round a roundabout. these guys weren't on there own, i also spotted a series of sports bikes that were on a hiding to nothing trying to ride like the proverbial idiots. Fast in a straight line and on the brakes to get round the corner.
In saying all this, there was a majority of riders that were pretty damn good all the same.
Well thats my 2c worth. All i can say is that a bit of time spent learning some of the tricks is well worth it.:woohoo:

[James Deuce]

Giant walls of text. Brain...melting....

But very good points.

Having said that, it is motorcyclists I am most wary of. They are vastly more unpredictable than most other road users whose behaviour can usually be predicted with a fair amount of certainty, once one has gained some "experience".

[haydes55]

As skilled as any rider is, a motorbike is as good as an invisibility cloak, no amount of upskilling will prevent cars T-boning and rear ending you.

The current system of licencing sort of discourages upskilling, why go do a course when it wont take time off your licence until you have had your licence for 12 months already. (or 6 months not entirely sure). Hoping the LAMS scheme has better incentives and courses. I would prefer it if there were 3 courses available that you take one to graduate first 3 months one more the next 3 months then another the next 3 months. Then the full licence will be granted after completion of the final course which doubles up as a test. Progressive upskilling.

[Katman]

As skilled as any rider is, a motorbike is as good as an invisibility cloak, no amount of upskilling will prevent cars T-boning and rear ending you.



Spoken like a true perpetual victim.

[haydes55]

Spoken like a true perpetual victim.

Just from riding around town 1 in 5 cars you can guarantee wont see you so I have been good at avoiding cars. Been in one bike crash on the road and man it sucks having no bike :angry: (ute was stopped at intersection, pulled out as I got close, on a corner. Only low speed but... My bike was made in Korea). I have learnt my lesson though, the horn is my friend and if I haven't made eye contact with the driver, make sure he knows I'm there.

On a side note I would be really interested in a gymkhana club or get together sort of thing maybe once a month around Hamilton. Fun way to improve bike handling throttle control and improving riding skills.

[cheshirecat]

You need to do this course - graduation ceremony on purpose build M/C road course track. Note girl lead instructor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=iQXQ9Qpf4ss#t=107s

[caspernz]

Well said GB. The hardest thing to change is an ingrained attitude in some folks that 'the problem' is not theirs to solve. Funny thing is that as a rider one can go a fair way to solving 'the problem' by taking a course or two...if only it wasn't cursed with such a stigma that makes hardened bikers stay away huh?

[Pseudonym]

It’s a sad state of affairs when we’ll spend $20k on a bike and another $4k on gear but not $500 to do a day of training.

[oneofsix]

You need to do this course - graduation ceremony on purpose build M/C road course track. Note girl lead instructor.


Did you note that even on a purpose built track that they have all to themselves they still do the head check before moving off. If only .....

[avgas]

It's very hard. You try telling a 250 rider that they don't now EVERYTHING <_<

[cheshirecat]

Did you note that even on a purpose built track that they have all to themselves they still do the head check before moving off. If only .....
Yes if only. The nearest I've come to this was a UK police bike course way back in the 70's. There were five of us with a Police bike front and rear. Making progress i think they call it these days. We had to be very accurate in road postioning and speed. Marks were deducted for letting the centerline of the tyre cross the edge of the yellow line and the centerline of the tyre not "kissing" the edge of the yellow (no crossing) line. Using all available width that is. All along fast 70 mph limit A roads at night keeping perfect distance and road position between you and the rider ahead.

I must admit if that Japanese course was compulsory here and I was new to bikes, it would encourage me to take up biking knowing on graduation I'd have skills like that.

[willytheekid]

Very good thread!

Totally agree that MC training should be compulsory! (instead of a basic handling test, heres ya license...good luck!:facepalm:)

I went to three advanced rider training courses and loved every minute of it!
...the funny thing was, I had been riding since I was 8yrs old (road & dirt bikes)...and I thought I knew it ALL before doing those courses!<_<....oh how wrong I was!:facepalm:

I will be celebrating 30yrs of riding in Febuary!...and I attribute my survival to this training, and trying my best to use it everyday on the bike...and even in the car! (Im NOT a natural in a car...things scare the hell out of me :laugh:...but I am safe!...slow...but safe!)

If only ACC and NZTA would focus on funding for REAL training and guidance for riders (young and old...we all need refresher courses etc), maybe people like me wouldn't have lost so many friends over the years...to their own egos and inflated sence of skill

...if only:mellow:

[SMOKEU]

The hatred for cagers is because most drivers are absolute fuckwits. Most people these days get taught to drive by their parents or friends (who usually can't drive properly in the first place), and since there is no legal requirement for people to take driving lessons from a qualified instructor, bad driving is inevitable. I will go as far as to say that the majority of people in NZ can't drive properly. Most people can't even indicate properly at a roundabout, they drive slowly in the right lane when they should be in the left lane, they brake during, rather than before a corner. They are too distracted by their passenger, mobile phone, radio, food etc to even notice what's around them. It's simple things that every driver should know how to do which is leading to the high road toll.

[Grubber]

Very good thread!

Totally agree that MC training should be compulsory! (instead of a basic handling test, heres ya license...good luck!:facepalm:)

I went to three advanced rider training courses and loved every minute of it!
...the funny thing was, I had been riding since I was 8yrs old (road & dirt bikes)...and I thought I knew it ALL before doing those courses!<_<....oh how wrong I was!:facepalm:

I will be celebrating 30yrs of riding in Febuary!...and I attribute my survival to this training, and trying my best to use it everyday on the bike...and even in the car! (Im NOT a natural in a car...things scare the hell out of me :laugh:...but I am safe!...slow...but safe!)

If only ACC and NZTA would focus on funding for REAL training and guidance for riders (young and old...we all need refresher courses etc), maybe people like me wouldn't have lost so many friends over the years...to their own egos and inflated sence of skill

...if only:mellow:

THe old "thought i knew it all" syndrome. Not sure i was quite like that, but even though i could ride fine, i still learnt a bunch of shit that i didn't know about when i did my coarses.
It was more so recognising what lay ahead before it jumped out and hit me i think. The seeing through the corners much better did the world of good.
There is whole bunch of stuff that many riders out there on big cruisers etc getting back into biking or just starting out , have no idea about. One can see it in thier riding everyday.
I even have a couple of mates that won't declare they need some help. One evens says that he doesn't ride fast enough to be a worry. I have riden with him long enough to know that he travels around 120k's and that is fast enough to die.
Ego's don't ride well do they! The mightier than though complex usually crashes mid corner. Notice how 'corner' can be misspelt as 'coroner'. Ironic isn't it! <_<

[ducatilover]

Paragraphs are our friends.

Everyone on the road needs more training, one can never be good enough.
I still think we have a shit licencing system.

[willytheekid]

THe old "thought i knew it all" syndrome. Not sure i was quite like that, but even though i could ride fine, i still learnt a bunch of shit that i didn't know about when i did my coarses.
It was more so recognising what lay ahead before it jumped out and hit me i think. The seeing through the corners much better did the world of good.
There is whole bunch of stuff that many riders out there on big cruisers etc getting back into biking or just starting out , have no idea about. One can see it in thier riding everyday.
I even have a couple of mates that won't declare they need some help. One evens says that he doesn't ride fast enough to be a worry. I have riden with him long enough to know that he travels around 120k's and that is fast enough to die.
Ego's don't ride well do they! The mightier than though complex usually crashes mid corner. Notice how 'corner' can be misspelt as 'coroner'. Ironic isn't it! <_<

:yes:...amplified my youth!...and age!

I was young (16)I had been racing and riding for 8yrs...so of course I knew it all! :facepalm:

And as you mention, the older riders returing to bikes tend to think that because they rode 20yrs ago, and memory stated they where at a stunt rider/racer level in the old days...they too know it all!:facepalm:

This is why I tend to ride alone now days...I never want to hold a dying/dead person or friend in my arms again...due to stupidity or ignorance on the road.:no:

Its also why I strongly believe in rider training for all, and repeat training to ensure our skills are alway updated and used daily...because sadly it IS the difference between "seeing" the corner...or the coroner!

[Katman]

The hatred for cagers is because most drivers are absolute fuckwits. Most people these days get taught to drive by their parents or friends (who usually can't drive properly in the first place), and since there is no legal requirement for people to take driving lessons from a qualified instructor, bad driving is inevitable. I will go as far as to say that the majority of people in NZ can't drive properly. Most people can't even indicate properly at a roundabout, they drive slowly in the right lane when they should be in the left lane, they brake during, rather than before a corner. They are too distracted by their passenger, mobile phone, radio, food etc to even notice what's around them. It's simple things that every driver should know how to do which is leading to the high road toll.

So how do you rate your motorcycling ability?

[SMOKEU]

So how do you rate your motorcycling ability?

Not that great. I'm still a n00b.

[pritch]

Spoken like a true perpetual victim.

Not necessarily. It does happen.

On another board I follow one of the riders reports that he stopped at a red light and a woman, more interested in her cell phone than her driving, just drove straight into the back of his bike and over him. Not a lot one can do about that, but by all means feel free to point out his error.

I recently read in BIKE that riding a motorcycle is likely to make you an impatient driver. It is common for motorcyclists behind the wheel to be venting verbal abuse at zombie like car drivers. I plead guilty.

As a motorcyclist you will be much more aware of your surroundings than the average car driver. Zombie motorcyclists are liikely to have a short life expectancy?

[James Deuce]

Zombie motorcyclists are liikely to have a short life expectancy?

I wish! In my experience, ZMs and WOFTs (Wound Open Fuck-Tards) seem to be invincible AND invulnerable.

[Katman]

Most people these days get taught to drive by their parents or friends (who usually can't drive properly in the first place), and since there is no legal requirement for people to take driving lessons from a qualified instructor, bad driving is inevitable.

So have you taken any riding lessons from a qualified instructor?

Or is it only everyone else's problem?

[ducatilover]

So have you taken any riding lessons from a qualified instructor?

Or is it only everyone else's problem?

Have you? I haven't. Are experienced riders any different from instructors?

[SMOKEU]

So have you taken any riding lessons from a qualified instructor?



Yes I have actually.

[george formby]

No idea where I read it but a survey of fully licensed car drivers & bike riders showed that over 70% thought they were above average in ability when asked. Er, don't think so. That was the point of the survey too, to high light this personal misconception.

Speaking for myself I had the pleasure of watching my girlfriend undertake some professional training recently for her basic handling test. It was a bit of a revelation for me, making me realise how lazy I have become despite having had advanced training years ago. I hope to take up an offer of training for myself in the future too, knock the rust spots off as it were. I have mentioned this to riders I know up here & all of them have put their hands up "me too please". Quite heartening to see them immediately jump at the suggestion of further training.

[Geordie_Biker6]

Hey guys. Thanks for all the feedback. I understand some people dont see it the way i do but its pretty simple really. If you drive a car, you must ensure you have adequate skill to do so. Same goes for a motorbike, only there are more hazards and therefore a greater skill level is required.

Yes the licence system isnt set-up properly for Biking, however it is our choice to ride bikes so therefore is it up to us to get the required training to not just ride, but survive. Even if the licencing system doesnt provide it.

I am 21, have been riding for 3 years and am still on my 250. Why? Because i will move up to a bigger bike when i feel i have the skills to do so, not the opportunity. I am quite happy to admit that i dont know it all nor will i ever.

Accidents will still happen but minimising the risk and eliminating the possibility of our own 'fuck-ups' surely is not a bad thing. Besides, who can say no to a day out on the track! And knwing that you will ride with more confidence and skill allowing you to take those 'hairy' corners smoothly and with ease sporting a big grin and feeling massive satisfaction.

GB.

[Grubber]

Hey guys. Thanks for all the feedback. I understand some people dont see it the way i do but its pretty simple really. If you drive a car, you must ensure you have adequate skill to do so. Same goes for a motorbike, only there are more hazards and therefore a greater skill level is required.

Yes the licence system isnt set-up properly for Biking, however it is our choice to ride bikes so therefore is it up to us to get the required training to not just ride, but survive. Even if the licencing system doesnt provide it.

I am 21, have been riding for 3 years and am still on my 250. Why? Because i will move up to a bigger bike when i feel i have the skills to do so, not the opportunity. I am quite happy to admit that i dont know it all nor will i ever.

Accidents will still happen but minimising the risk and eliminating the possibility of our own 'fuck-ups' surely is not a bad thing. Besides, who can say no to a day out on the track! And knwing that you will ride with more confidence and skill allowing you to take those 'hairy' corners smoothly and with ease sporting a big grin and feeling massive satisfaction.

GB.

Wow! 21 years old and has some brains. I'm impressed. You have restored my faith in the youth of today. Well done young man. In theory at least, you should live a long time.
I doubt there would be too many guys your age with that mentality and very likely you are the minority unfortunately.
If many others had your outlook on life they would probably tend to live a lot longer to enjoy most of it.:woohoo:

[Grubber]

Have you? I haven't. Are experienced riders any different from instructors?

Actually i believe they are. Not saying experience doesn't count, but an instructor should at least have the technical knowledge to execute tuition far better.
I only know this after doing some retraining over the years.
It's all very well knowing how to steer a bike, but it helps a lot knowing the concepts and technical reasoning behind why a bike reacts the way it does when we do it.
I used to ride reasonably well i thought for many years until i did some coarse's.
My riding was smooth and straight, but any time something adverse made my back end hop out somewhat i was slightly at a loss as to how to react. Since doing a bunch of coarse's, my bike skips about all over the place and it doesn't bother me at all. I have it under control at all times. I have hit large mounds of gravel mid corner and riden through them at speed with confidence. There mere fact that i know how to react and deal with such issues has made me a better rider by far. Riding is much different now.

[avgas]

I am 21, have been riding for 3 years and am still on my 250. Why? Because i will move up to
Thats what your saying.......but being 21 and riding for 3 years does not tell me you believe this.

You don't have your full yet do you?
How can you be critical of the licensing system if you don't complete it?

I am betting still learners.
I was just like you. Then I grew up. Actually thats not true. I even said that 250's were too fast so I rode a 150 instead. But then I realized I was being a hypocrite.

[Pseudonym]

On another forum where I hangout, you can join in on a group buy for whatever has been set up.
I have a little time to make the call, would anyone be keen in doing a group deal with the superbike school at Hampton Downs if they can offer a discount for a full class of riders?

From the site:
"A day at the Superbike School is a full one. It starts at 7am with registration and ends at 5.30pm with a debrief and a final chance to chat with your Coach again before you ride home. There are 72 students on a day split into 3 groups of 24 riders. You will be assigned a Riding Coach for the whole day and he works with you one to one during a session although he has two other students to service too. There are five classroom sessions for you to complete as well as five track sessions and an off track drill to perform. After each of the track sessions your Instructor will give you a personal debrief of your progress in that session."

So can we get 72 of us to commit to doing this?
Most likely have to pre-pay and until I make the call I have no idea if they’ll go for it or if they do what the price will be.
It’s normally $429 for a weekday and $459 for a weekend.
I would imagine a weekday would be better for them (so cheaper for us) as weekends are often booked long in advance.

Not road training but a fun day where you learn loads.
Hmmm, the Kiwi Super Biker training day?

[onearmedbandit]

Not necessarily. It does happen.

On another board I follow one of the riders reports that he stopped at a red light and a woman, more interested in her cell phone than her driving, just drove straight into the back of his bike and over him. Not a lot one can do about that, but by all means feel free to point out his error.



Simple. Mirror-checking. That's what they are there for.

[James Deuce]

Have rabbited my way through a red light and turned hard left to avoid a rear-ender. Car then proceeded to hit the vehicle turning right across the intersection.

[oneofsix]

Simple. Mirror-checking. That's what they are there for.

yep good plan. :no: sit there looking at your mirrors in case and miss the green or the plonker changing in to your lane. how about other road users taking responsibility for their actions so we can concentrate on ours. there is no perfect solution, just do the best you can.

[onearmedbandit]

yep good plan. :no: sit there looking at your mirrors in case and miss the green or the plonker changing in to your lane. how about other road users taking responsibility for their actions so we can concentrate on ours. there is no perfect solution, just do the best you can.

You're fucking kidding me right? In over 20yrs of road riding I've avoided being tail-ended 2 times through checking my mirrors, and never missed the 'green' (plonker changing into my lane at a red light would only be avoided if I was checking my mirrors...). You do realise you don't have to sit there, staring into your mirrors right? Or is that concept to hard for you to grasp. A simple check, every few seconds, with the bike in gear will enable you to avoid being tail-ended. If you don't want to protect yourself, instead relying on others to do it for you, then that's your funeral.

The more I think about it the more I think your post was a simple troll. With your logic you might as well not worry about checking for danger signs when riding, just rely on others to ensure you have a safe ride. :facepalm:

[willytheekid]

yep good plan. :no: sit there looking at your mirrors in case and miss the green or the plonker changing in to your lane. how about other road users taking responsibility for their actions so we can concentrate on ours. there is no perfect solution, just do the best you can.

Ummm....actually I not only watch my mirrors at the lights...I also stop with a distance and angle between the car infront that would allow me to hit the gas and avoid the "death from behind" that may be coming.(car locking up or failing to stop!)

Case in point:
I was riding into work last winter....main north highway, when it started to hail...and I mean REALLY hail!
I watched a car several vehicles ahead....STOP!...on the highway!:facepalm:(So he could look at hail??..fuck knows?)

I immediately remembered the rather large 4x4/ute that I had passed a few minutes earlier...checked my mirrors and saw the headlights coming...fast...to bloody fast!!
I gassed it and pulled off the road completely!....and sure enough, the 4x4/ute locked up and power slid into the rear of the car that was INFRONT of me! :shit:

...that could have been me gone!, crushed between the two. :sick:

ALWAYS CHECK YOUR MIRRORS & ALWAYS HAVE AN ESCAPE ROUTE!...learnt this at advanced rider training :niceone: (and its already saved my arsed more than once!)

Ride Safe KBers:love:...and trust no-one on the road! front, side or rear! - there panel damage...could be our life!

[pritch]

The more I think about it the more I think your post was a simple troll.

Not really. Your standards seem unrealistically high. Yes, at the lights I sit back from the car in front, and leave the bike in first so I can piss off quick if I have to. In the case in question there were apparently no warning signals, the woman made no attempt to stop. To avoid that you would basically have to be staring at your mirrors.

[oneofsix]

You're fucking kidding me right? In over 20yrs of road riding I've avoided being tail-ended 2 times through checking my mirrors, and never missed the 'green' (plonker changing into my lane at a red light would only be avoided if I was checking my mirrors...). You do realise you don't have to sit there, staring into your mirrors right? Or is that concept to hard for you to grasp. A simple check, every few seconds, with the bike in gear will enable you to avoid being tail-ended. If you don't want to protect yourself, instead relying on others to do it for you, then that's your funeral.

The more I think about it the more I think your post was a simple troll. With your logic you might as well not worry about checking for danger signs when riding, just rely on others to ensure you have a safe ride. :facepalm:

I am sick of people saying we have to take all the blame for anything that happens to us on the road. Sure you were lucky enough to twice see a situation coming from the rear, but what if it had been whilst you weren't staring at your mirrors, cause your original implied you expect them to be staring at the mirrors. As a biker, because we are more vulnerably we do take more care to protect ourselves but because we are human we can't do everything. There are some bikers that haven't yet learnt just how vulnerable they are but they are a low percentage and make up the potent Darwin award contenders. NZ has a bully society and the more we say sorry and tug the old forelock the more we will be marginalised and picked on. The deadly peddles get more respect because they stand up and say screw you cagers, stop figging killing us and learn to drive.

[Katman]

Not really. Your standards seem unrealistically high.

Why shouldn't standards be set high?

Better than setting them low.

[oneofsix]

Why shouldn't standards be set high?

Better than setting them low.

the key word would have been "unrealistically". But don't let reality get you down.

[onearmedbandit]

Not really. Your standards seem unrealistically high. Yes, at the lights I sit back from the car in front, and leave the bike in first so I can piss off quick if I have to. In the case in question there were apparently no warning signals, the woman made no attempt to stop. To avoid that you would basically have to be staring at your mirrors.

No warning signals? What, was the intersection directly after a corner? A simple check every few seconds will tell you how fast a car is approaching, don't like what you see, get out of the way. One result is the car stops and you look silly. The other result is car flies through the intersection and you look alive.

Maybe my standards are unrealistically high. That's if you consider ensuring my safety on the road isn't compromised by other road users 'unrealistically high'. Do what works for you, I'll continue doing what works for me. BTW, one of the situations I avoided was on an open road at a stop sign. The car flew through the intersection at open road speed (luckily without hitting any one). If I had the attitude it was too hard to do and that I should simply place the fate of my existence in other road users I'd be pushing up daisies. But like I said, do what works for you.

[onearmedbandit]

Fuck I give up.

[Grubber]

No warning signals? What, was the intersection directly after a corner? A simple check every few seconds will tell you how fast a car is approaching, don't like what you see, get out of the way. One result is the car stops and you look silly. The other result is car flies through the intersection and you look alive.

Maybe my standards are unrealistically high. That's if you consider ensuring my safety on the road isn't compromised by other road users 'unrealistically high'. Do what works for you, I'll continue doing what works for me. BTW, one of the situations I avoided was on an open road at a stop sign. The car flew through the intersection at open road speed (luckily without hitting any one). If I had the attitude it was too hard to do and that I should simply place the fate of my existence in other road users I'd be pushing up daisies. But like I said, do what works for you.

In many ways i agree with what your saying, but i also have a more realistic view on how much we can do. AS much as you say you can avoid every scenario that comes your way, i think you are only human and there will be situations that are completely out of your control that will eventually bite you in the arse. No guarantees either way really. I think both yourself and others do all that is possible, as do i, but i still don't know that i am capable of avoiding an absolute idiot every time i hit the road.

[onearmedbandit]

I am sick of people saying we have to take all the blame for anything that happens to us on the road. Sure you were lucky enough to twice see a situation coming from the rear, but what if it had been whilst you weren't staring at your mirrors, cause your original implied you expect them to be staring at the mirrors. As a biker, because we are more vulnerably we do take more care to protect ourselves but because we are human we can't do everything. There are some bikers that haven't yet learnt just how vulnerable they are but they are a low percentage and make up the potent Darwin award contenders. NZ has a bully society and the more we say sorry and tug the old forelock the more we will be marginalised and picked on. The deadly peddles get more respect because they stand up and say screw you cagers, stop figging killing us and learn to drive.

Apparently I don't give up, this I just couldn't resist.

Blame? When the fuck did I say blame, or even imply blame. I'm talking responsibility. Taking responsibility for your own safety. Do you get that? If not, please find someone you do trust who is more intelligent than you to explain the difference. It may just save your life one day.

'Lucky enough'? Luck ain't got nothing to do with it. Luck would've been me staring blankly waiting for the light to change when I glanced down at the ground, noticing a vehicle approaching at speed in my mirrors. Nope dude, wasn't luck at all, it was planned. Luck for is for losers.

Humans are flawed, we are not perfect. We get distracted by our own thoughts and actions, let alone those of the people around us. Do you think you're going to stamp that out? Because until we do the roads will never be a safe place to assume on. And to assume that other easily distracted road users are going to act in a way to ensure someone else's safety is just a quick road to an early grave.

[onearmedbandit]

In many ways i agree with what your saying, but i also have a more realistic view on how much we can do. AS much as you say you can avoid every scenario that comes your way, i think you are only human and there will be situations that are completely out of your control that will eventually bite you in the arse. No guarantees either way really. I think both yourself and others do all that is possible, as do i, but i still don't know that i am capable of avoiding an absolute idiot every time i hit the road.

Years ago I worked for a car yard where the owner said to me 'every person that comes onto the yard is a buyer'. Being young and on the 'showroom floor' I thought he was wrong, and pointed this gem of wisdom out to him. I'll never forget the look on his face. I pondered later why he looked at me like that, and it dawned on me. Sure, not every person who comes onto the yard is a buyer, but if I treat them like they are instead of dismissing them I'll increase my chances of selling more cars. Still to today I sell cars to people I initially thought were never going to buy a car, but they did.

If I had approached them without that way of thinking, guess what, I never would've sold them a car. So I transferred that lesson over to many things I do in life, including accident avoidance. I believe I can escape every accident, because if I don't believe that one day I might decide there is nothing I can do and let fate take over. I'd rather go down trying every possible way of avoiding it then just simply telling myself there was/is nothing I could've done.

[Katman]

the key word would have been "unrealistically". But don't let reality get you down.

You think that expecting motorcyclists to be aware of what's happening behind them as well as in front is setting standards unrealistically high?

Looks like we've found another perpetual victim.

[oneofsix]

Apparently I don't give up, this I just couldn't resist.

Blame? When the fuck did I say blame, or even imply blame. I'm talking responsibility. Taking responsibility for your own safety. Do you get that? If not, please find someone you do trust who is more intelligent than you to explain the difference. It may just save your life one day.

'Lucky enough'? Luck ain't got nothing to do with it. Luck would've been me staring blankly waiting for the light to change when I glanced down at the ground, noticing a vehicle approaching at speed in my mirrors. Nope dude, wasn't luck at all, it was planned. Luck for is for losers.

Humans are flawed, we are not perfect. We get distracted by our own thoughts and actions, let alone those of the people around us. Do you think you're going to stamp that out? Because until we do the roads will never be a safe place to assume on. And to assume that other easily distracted road users are going to act in a way to ensure someone else's safety is just a quick road to an early grave.

Of course you don't give up, you wouldn't be riding a bike if you did.
Did you say blame? no, you didn't and nor did I mean to suggest you had. That comment was about other posters to this site that seem to have that attitude and an explanation (partial) of where I came at your post from.
As to luck, what if the vehicle had approached at speed between checks? OK I wasn't there and don't know the full story but what if you too had been distracted by something else.
As to your final paragraph, we agree as long as you allow for the bikers also being human, which you seem to.

[pritch]

Why shouldn't standards be set high?

Better than setting them low.

I was wondering where you'd got to :whistle:

High is fine, unrealistically high isn't.

I guess it's all about perceptions, and comprehension skills, both of which vary hugely hereabout

[Katman]

I was wondering where you'd got to :whistle:

High is fine, unrealistically high isn't.

I guess it's all about perceptions, and comprehension skills, both of which vary hugely hereabout

Refer post #45.

[onearmedbandit]

Of course you don't give up, you wouldn't be riding a bike if you did.
Did you say blame? no, you didn't and nor did I mean to suggest you had. That comment was about other posters to this site that seem to have that attitude and an explanation (partial) of where I came at your post from.
As to luck, what if the vehicle had approached at speed between checks? OK I wasn't there and don't know the full story but what if you too had been distracted by something else.
As to your final paragraph, we agree as long as you allow for the bikers also being human, which you seem to.

Well you did quote my post directly while throwing the 'blame' word out there.

As for your second statement, you seem to assume I haven't been checking my mirrors before I approach the intersection, nor as I slow down. I'm aware of my surroundings.

Yes of course we are humans (motorcyclists, ie people like you and me inclusive - just so there is no confusion) so we too are imperfect, but that in no way diminishes my personal responsibility, which is what I'm talking about here.

Ultimately is every crash avoidable? Unfortunately not. But are we best to think that every crash is avoidable or to think otherwise? Go back to my sales analogy. I don't sell a car to every person I talk to, but that doesn't stop me from believing otherwise until I've exhausted every possible option. To think otherwise would be detrimental to my sales figures, just like thinking that the same would be detrimental to the years I'll live.

What's the best option when you find yourself running too hot into a corner? Stand the bike up and hit the brakes or lean further into the corner? Most peoples brains will scream hit the brakes, it seems the obvious thing to do to them, to wash off more speed. Yet 9 times out of 10 if you commit yourself to getting around that corner and lean further you'll make it. It's the same thing. You see that car pull out in front of you in what seems to be impossible distance to safely stop, yet most people will try to do exactly that, and fail. Yet if you had believed you could find an escape path there is a good chance you will.

[Katman]

I was wondering where you'd got to :whistle:

High is fine, unrealistically high isn't.

I guess it's all about perceptions, and comprehension skills, both of which vary hugely hereabout

If you believe I have ever said that every single accident is avoidable then I'd love to see you point me to the post.

Having said that, I believe that (at the barest minimum) 90% of motorcycle accidents could be avoided through some action by the motorcyclist.

And to anyone that tries using the "I suppose the motorcyclist could have stayed at home that day" argument - if that's the best you can come up with, perhaps it's time to hang up your helmet.

Too much effort is spent focusing on the accidents that "couldn't be avoided" at the expense of wondering how they might have been avoided.

[willytheekid]

.


.





http://rlv.zcache.com/stop_fighting_with_your_brother_poster-rb0b903d754b1448aa5ab15ffde43e8fb_kkl_400.jpg

This is about each others safety after all. :love:

Checking your mirrors at a stand still IS taught at advanced rider training, the amount of riders that have been killed or left paralyzed due to some ignorant fuck tard rear ending them is absolutely mind blowing!
Check your mirrors when ever possible!...its that simple guys...it could save your life oneday, cos I certainly DON'T want to read another biker down thread that involves any of my KB mates :love:

There Panel damage...could be our life! (I keep saying this for a reason...WE are the ones who need to dodge, to see them coming and survive!!)

[superman]

Checking your mirrors at a stand still IS taught at advanced rider training, the amount of riders that have been killed or left paralyzed due to some ignorant fuck tard rear ending them is absolutely mind blowing!
Check your mirrors when ever possible!...its that simple guys...it could save your life oneday, cos I certainly DON'T want to read another

Intersections are terrifying when any vehicle comes up quickly behind you, always eye up a potential exit strategy! I like aiming for pedestrian islands so as to avoid as much of the traffic as possible. :laugh:

Usually flashing the brakes on and off is enough to slow them down... usually...

[pritch]

Having said that, I believe that (at the barest minimum) 90% of motorcycle accidents could be avoided through some action by the motorcyclist.


From my perspective it's about making an intelligent assessment of the risks and then managing the risks.
Nobody's perfect, we all make mistakes, there's brain fade, and sometimes, whether we like it or not, shit does just happen.
So after allowing for all that, 90% still seems unreasonably high.

Must go, life intrudes.

[Grubber]

From my perspective it's about making an intelligent assessment of the risks and then managing the risks.
Nobody's perfect, we all make mistakes, there's brain fade, and sometimes, whether we like it or not, shit does just happen.
So after allowing for all that, 90% still seems unreasonably high.

Must go, life intrudes.

Yea i think 90% is a tad on the high side to be honest.
We would all like to try to achieve this though.

[Katman]

Yea i think 90% is a tad on the high side to be honest.
We would all like to try to achieve this though.

I think if you include all the motorcycle accidents that occur through the rider out-riding their ability, out-riding the conditions, riding with their head in lah-lah land, or having inadequate situational awareness, the figure would well exceed 90%.

[scumdog]

I was riding into work last winter....main north highway, when it started to hail...and I mean REALLY hail!
I watched a car several vehicles ahead....STOP!...on the highway!:facepalm:(So he could look at hail??..fuck knows?)

I immediately remembered the rather large 4x4/ute that I had passed a few minutes earlier...checked my mirrors and saw the headlights coming...fast...to bloody fast!!
I gassed it and pulled off the road completely!....and sure enough, the 4x4/ute locked up and power slid into the rear of the car that was INFRONT of me! :shit:

...that could have been me gone!, crushed between the two. :sick:

ALWAYS CHECK YOUR MIRRORS & ALWAYS HAVE AN ESCAPE ROUTE!...learnt this at advanced rider training :niceone: (and its already saved my arsed more than once!)



Yup, always remember what's behind you - sure check the mirror(s) regularly but knowing what is behind you before you even check the mirrors can give you that critical (at times) edge.

[onearmedbandit]

Why not aim for 100%?

I'm out on a ride now, I know that despite everything I do there is a chance I won't make it home. However I still believe I'm 100% responsible for my safety, if I was to attribute any less who would I give it to? Other road users? No thanks. With that mentality, for me at least, it puts me into the mindset that I can avoid every accident. I'm not perfect, I've had my share of offs, one leaving me with a paralysed arm, and those failures I can wholly attribute to my actions, but that hasn't changed my way of thinking. Might not work for others, but works for me.

Enough from me now, I've got a ride to finish.

[willytheekid]

Yup, always remember what's behind you - sure check the mirror(s) regularly but knowing what is behind you before you even check the mirrors can give you that critical (at times) edge.

:yes: Amen! (Totally agree)

You know the sickest part of that "incident" scummie...the stupid bastard that stopped to "look at the pritty hail":pinch:...just drove off!...he was completely oblivious to the carnage he had caused behind him.:facepalm: (Or simply didn't care?)
...Aint that just the kicker!



30yrs Riding in Febuary! :woohoo:....and I firmly believe its all thanks to advanced Rider training that I have lastest this long...and I hope to last another 30!
:niceone: (Ive gotta go on a refresher course)

Ride safe mate...will eat a few burnt sausages for ya on the 5th @ BBQ, and will post some pic's of the all the fun :msn-wink: (enjoy the trip down to rally!...pics!:yes:)

[Grubber]

I think if you include all the motorcycle accidents that occur through the rider out-riding their ability, out-riding the conditions, riding with their head in lah-lah land, or having inadequate situational awareness, the figure would well exceed 90%.

All of these scenarios are conducive to frequent accidents but this is not ALL motorcycle accidents. I still don't think it would be 90% of ALL.
Anyone who rides in the quoted manner is limiting their ability to stay upright.

[Katman]

All of these scenarios are conducive to frequent accidents but this is not ALL motorcycle accidents. I still don't think it would be 90% of ALL.
Anyone who rides in the quoted manner is limiting their ability to stay upright.

Come on man, you're just trying to excuse poor form.

Cars don't suddenly pull U-turns without having given away clues beforehand, escape routes should have automatically been worked out in your head before a car even has a chance to fail to give way and anyone that proclaims "there was nothing I could have done" is just being lazy (or needs serious training).

[Berries]

Having said that, I believe that (at the barest minimum) 90% of motorcycle accidents could be avoided through some action by the motorcyclist.
Yep, I'd say 90% is a minimum. I mean, I can only think of a handful of crash types that wouldn't be avoidable.

[oneofsix]

Yep, I'd say 90% is a minimum. I mean, I can only think of a handful of crash types that wouldn't be avoidable.

You fellas are being so so conservative. Of course 100% can be avoided if only the rider would not ride in the first place. Actually 100% of all road crashes can be avoided if only we avoid the roads.

[Katman]

Refer post #50.

[Berries]

You fellas are being so so conservative. Of course 100% can be avoided if only the rider would not ride in the first place. Actually 100% of all road crashes can be avoided if only we avoid the roads.
Ok, let's assume we all keep on riding on the roads. Can you list some crashes that are completely unavoidable?

Car running red light at speed.
The very rare tyre blow out.
Is a chain snapping a maintenance issue?
Vehicle reversing at you at traffic lights.
Isolated and completely shit piece of road.
Total idiot other road user. (Rare, but killed a rider down here a couple of years ago)

That's me done. I am sure there are a couple of others, but I struggle to think of more than a handful of bike crashes that I know of where the rider didn't either a) contribute to it, b) make a poor decision or c) make no decision. SMIDSY is bullshit. You saw them, you should have been ready for them to do the wrong thing.

[Katman]

You forgot the meteor option.

[swbarnett]

...he was completely oblivious to the carnage he had caused ...
The only one responsible for the carnage is the idiot that couldn't stop in the clear road ahead.

[Grubber]

Come on man, you're just trying to excuse poor form.

Cars don't suddenly pull U-turns without having given away clues beforehand, escape routes should have automatically been worked out in your head before a car even has a chance to fail to give way and anyone that proclaims "there was nothing I could have done" is just being lazy (or needs serious training).

Poor form ya reckon. not so sure about that. Motorcyclists aren't, and never will be, superhuman! As with cars!
Cars doing U turns have in fact done them without any real indication of doing them. I know this due to having seen them do it.
There is not always an escape route either. When one pulls out of a line parked cars into a single lane of traffic, there is no escape route, and don't try to tell me there would have been some indication as to what they were doing. Try tinted windows and wet. Can't see anyone inside the car and it had no lights on. Came straight and took my mate with him.
This is just one scenario i can offer and i would bet there was many more.
I don't disagree with you about all the "beware of surroundings and looking for escape routes etc" but you can't account for the "being in the wrong place at the wrong time''. This does happen plenty of times. It's not just up to the rider to beware either, would be nice if the car driver could work on some of these skills also.
I think you maybe over doing this a little, cause sometimes there is "nothing i could do" situations out there and that has nothing to do with being lazy.

[Grubber]

The only one responsible for the carnage is the idiot that couldn't stop in the clear road ahead.

Agreed. Couldn't get it any simpler than that. But there is some people around here that would put it that the car that got rammed should have spotted it coming and taken evasive action. Maybe, but it sure wasn't their fault!

[Grubber]

Ok, let's assume we all keep on riding on the roads. Can you list some crashes that are completely unavoidable?

Car running red light at speed.
The very rare tyre blow out.
Is a chain snapping a maintenance issue?
Vehicle reversing at you at traffic lights.
Isolated and completely shit piece of road.
Total idiot other road user. (Rare, but killed a rider down here a couple of years ago)

That's me done. I am sure there are a couple of others, but I struggle to think of more than a handful of bike crashes that I know of where the rider didn't either a) contribute to it, b) make a poor decision or c) make no decision. SMIDSY is bullshit. You saw them, you should have been ready for them to do the wrong thing.

There is in fact tons more to add, problem is though, you're wanting the ones where the biker has to do the thinking for another human being and i have never found anyone who can do that yet.
I would never say there isn't something we can do at various levels but i also wouldn't say we can avoid 90% of riders accidents by thinking for other people. I'm good, but i'm not telepathic yet.

[oneofsix]

This is about each others safety after all. :love:

Checking your mirrors at a stand still IS taught at advanced rider training, the amount of riders that have been killed or left paralyzed due to some ignorant fuck tard rear ending them is absolutely mind blowing!
Check your mirrors when ever possible!...its that simple guys...it could save your life oneday, cos I certainly DON'T want to read another biker down thread that involves any of my KB mates :love:

There Panel damage...could be our life! (I keep saying this for a reason...WE are the ones who need to dodge, to see them coming and survive!!)

Ok Willy I'll play nice ... maybe. :sunny:
I should perhaps be replying direct to onearmedbandit's post #49 but there is rather a lot in there.
He is correct that you should be checking your mirrors, at least until there is a cage stopped behind you to protect your rear. I'm afraid my original reaction was as if he was one of these posters that expect the biker to be superhumanly perfect at all times, his post #49 and other general posts show how badly I have maligned him. I should have paid more attention to who was posting.
As a commuter rider I don't get the choice of only riding when everything is perfect and the moon in the 7th heaven and therefore realise that the biker can also have off moments and the safe use of our roads relies on ALL road users doing what they should. I you look at the traffic laws closely you will see plenty of cases where one law only works when another is also applied.
It's like this 90% thing the idiots are bleating on about now and the example of the U-turning driver. Whilst the crash might be theoretically avoidable it isn't always realistically avoidable, tinted windows, other distractions like loose dogs or rough road surface, overloaded holiday makers cars are just some of the things that can mean the biker doesn't see that instantaneous movement (if it is even there) that precedes the U-turn. Of course in a theoretical world there are no rough road surfaces or loose dog/kids or even pretty woman (their loss).

[Berries]

As a commuter rider I don't get the choice of only riding when everything is perfect and the moon in the 7th heaven and therefore realise that the biker can also have off moments and the safe use of our roads relies on ALL road users doing what they should.
I'm a mainly commuter rider now and have no choice in what conditions I ride. I would say something happens at least every fortnight that could catch me out if I was having an off moment. Some days several incidents one after each other. You can't rely on other road users to do as they should, that's half the problem.

[oneofsix]

I'm a mainly commuter rider now and have no choice in what conditions I ride. I would say something happens at least every fortnight that could catch me out if I was having an off moment. Some days several incidents one after each other. You can't rely on other road users to do as they should, that's half the problem.

I am not relying on them but at the same time when someone does get caught out I don't jump on the "they should have avoided it" bandwagon. Sorry but I don't agree with bullying the injured. Practical help and advice to avoid being hurt - yes, unrealistic expectation - no, and 90% of the time the they could have avoided it comments are thrown out there without the full facts. BTW the 90% is pulled for the other posts, it is more like 100% of the time with knowing what really happened that the unhelpful finger pointing starts.

[Katman]

There is in fact tons more to add, problem is though, you're wanting the ones where the biker has to do the thinking for another human being and i have never found anyone who can do that yet.
I would never say there isn't something we can do at various levels but i also wouldn't say we can avoid 90% of riders accidents by thinking for other people. I'm good, but i'm not telepathic yet.

Yes, heaven forbid that we should expect motorcyclists to exercise their brains while riding.

[James Deuce]

You guys (oneofsix, grubber) are arguing from your current knowledge and skill base. You're kind of ignoring the fact that you improve as you gain experience and knowlwedge, IF you have the right mindset and you learn to identify clueless road users and hazards simply by glancing at them. This improvement is infinite in scope, at least until you shuffle off, or decide you're not up for riding a bike any more.

Your subconcious is really good at compiling experience into implicit knowledge and if you actively seek to develop the correct habits and modify those over time as necessary, your subconcious will look at the dirty Nissan Primera with the large middle age woman driving, a car which is dirty, has mismatched tyres, a broken indicator lense, and rubbish poking up above the level of the windows and will identify that vehicle as being piloted by someone who won't see you and won't have any regard for your safety - if you've had the same experiences I've had. You will note the driver parallel to you on the motorway two lanes over and slightly behind you but not in your mirrors, your peripheral vision will send a message to habitual response centre and you'll accelerate out of harm's way before they try to occupy your space with no indication or warning. An exercised subconsious will identify these risks almost instantly.

Try to be a bit more open-minded about this topic. It isn't definable as having predictable outcomes or an end-state of competence, nor will you operate at the same skill and knowledge level your whole life. If you do, you'll keep having the same problems over and over.

[Berries]

I am not relying on them but at the same time when someone does get caught out I don't jump on the "they should have avoided it" bandwagon. Sorry but I don't agree with bullying the injured. Practical help and advice to avoid being hurt - yes, unrealistic expectation - no, and 90% of the time the they could have avoided it comments are thrown out there without the full facts. BTW the 90% is pulled for the other posts, it is more like 100% of the time with knowing what really happened that the unhelpful finger pointing starts.
Ok, without bullying the injured, berating the dead or talking about any specific crash, I would say that nearly all of the motorbike crashes that I have looked at over the years as a crash investigator became unavoidable at a particular moment in time due to a combination of issues. While the rider may have no control of many of those issuses some of them he does and in most cases the crash could have been avoided by identifying and dealing with just one of those, whether it is lane position, speed, following distance, corner set up, attitude or whatever.

Not all, but the majority.

[oneofsix]

You guys (oneofsix, grubber) are arguing from your current knowledge and skill base.

Wrong. In fact a lot of the rest of what you say supports our arguments. My skill base is generally ahead of where I am arguing from, like noticing the plonker in the 4x4 reading the newspaper at the lights etc. I just will not accept those that jump on every bike crash and spout that it should have been avoided with unrealistic expectation of how and without full knowledge of the circumstances.

[James Deuce]

It's quite difficult to discuss anything with a closed mind. It becomes an argument with negative connotations. I'm not willing to go there.

[willytheekid]

The only one responsible for the carnage is the idiot that couldn't stop in the clear road ahead.


Agreed. Couldn't get it any simpler than that. But there is some people around here that would put it that the car that got rammed should have spotted it coming and taken evasive action. Maybe, but it sure wasn't their fault!

:confused:...hmmm, I don't remember seeing you guys there (You could have at least helped me get PhatGirl back on the road!...fat bitch got bogged in the mud! :laugh:)

To be fair to all the drivers involved, the conditions were absolutely atrocious!, visability went from bugger all to total white out in the matter of seconds! :shit: (The fog, rain and hail was truly shocking!)
The traffic was already crawling along at approx 70-80kph and the hail storm turned the road into an instant skating rink:shit:...it really was a shitty day to be on the road:pinch:

The guy who stopped to "look at the pritty hail".... did so in a VERY unsafe manner (see "slammed on brakes!") and everyone REALLY struggled to stop...as for the 4x4/ute, he really didn't stand a chance in those conditions, In fact he did well to bring that big bugger to a stand still, true...he did rear end the car...but had he not been driving to the conditions...some poor bugger would have died that day :mellow: (And he was damn near crying when he got out to check the other driver was ok)
And the other driver DID see him coming...but had no where to go:no:

End of the day...were all human!...we ALL make mistakes and sadly...a small lapse in judgement or concentration...can result in a lost life.

Hence this discussion regarding mirrors, exit points and evasion...its not about whos best, or who can do what 90% of the time!
...its about looking out for each other:yes:, sharing our experiences, opinions and training so we don't read about...or have witness, ANOTHER rider getting taken out by a stupid lapse in concentration or some silly mistake...its about survival on NZ roads...OUR survival :yes:

And I for one...will use every tip, trick or skill I know to do just that...survive! (So I can enjoy riding for another 30yrs:niceone:)

Ride Safe KBers :love:

[Katman]

It's like this 90% thing the idiots are bleating on about now and the example of the U-turning driver. Whilst the crash might be theoretically avoidable it isn't always realistically avoidable, tinted windows, other distractions like loose dogs or rough road surface, overloaded holiday makers cars are just some of the things that can mean the biker doesn't see that instantaneous movement (if it is even there) that precedes the U-turn.

What about the right front wheel turned to right lock?

[onearmedbandit]

Ok Willy I'll play nice ... maybe. :sunny:
I should perhaps be replying direct to onearmedbandit's post #49 but there is rather a lot in there.
He is correct that you should be checking your mirrors, at least until there is a cage stopped behind you to protect your rear. I'm afraid my original reaction was as if he was one of these posters that expect the biker to be superhumanly perfect at all times, his post #49 and other general posts show how badly I have maligned him. I should have paid more attention to who was posting.
As a commuter rider I don't get the choice of only riding when everything is perfect and the moon in the 7th heaven and therefore realise that the biker can also have off moments and the safe use of our roads relies on ALL road users doing what they should. I you look at the traffic laws closely you will see plenty of cases where one law only works when another is also applied.
It's like this 90% thing the idiots are bleating on about now and the example of the U-turning driver. Whilst the crash might be theoretically avoidable it isn't always realistically avoidable, tinted windows, other distractions like loose dogs or rough road surface, overloaded holiday makers cars are just some of the things that can mean the biker doesn't see that instantaneous movement (if it is even there) that precedes the U-turn. Of course in a theoretical world there are no rough road surfaces or loose dog/kids or even pretty woman (their loss).

Thanks for your acknowledgement there oneofsix.

I'll never state that every accident is avoidable, I know that from personal experience and from sheer logic. But what I will ask riders to do (not that what I have to say carries any weight for others, I'm not some expert on riding, I'm not about to write a book with riding tips) is ride with the mindset that they are ultimately responsible for their own safety, not a collection of random strangers. Ride like that and BELIEVE you can escape every accident, and it will increase your chances of survival. That's all I want, less motorcyclists being hit.

Grubber mentioned the fault word, that word to me as a motorcyclist is one I choose not to use. Because whose fault it is doesn't matter when you're discussing riding. Not being at fault doesn't give much comfort when lying on the side of the road while the driver of the car whose fault it was surveys the dent to his guard. Not being at fault doesn't give much comfort as you are transported to hospital while the car driver receives a ticket for careless use causing injury before they drive home for dinner. Not being at fault doesn't give much comfort while you spend the next 4 weeks in hospital, while the driver who was at fault goes about his/her normal life. Sure, there will be times when it's not our fault. But please please ride like your life depends on it, because as a motorcyclist it does. Car drivers rarely die in bike vs car accidents, regardless of who is at fault. Whereas motorcyclists very often die or get seriously injured.

I'm not trying to be a party pooper. I'm not trying to say we are always to blame. I'm not saying I'm perfect. I'm just trying to ask that motorcyclists take responsibility 100% of the time for their own safety. That means things like James Deuce said, observe the cars around you. The person in the nicely restored classic car is most likely aware of his surroundings. The fat lady with two children in her battered VL commodore no doubt isn't. The guy driving the late model merc has extensive insurance and a business deal to concentrate on. The guy in the 4wd on a lift kit with mud plastered everywhere thinks he is unstoppable on the road. The guy driving the furniture delivery truck is thinking about quitting his no-end job but that would mean spending more time at home with his fat ugly moaning girlfriend. The list goes on, and they are all generalisations, but you need to make yourself aware of these, and very quickly too. Better to be safe than sorry.

It goes on. Don't lane split at speed, someone will pull out. In a dual lane road approaching an intersection, where one lane has more traffic stopped than the other, don't ride up the free lane at speed, some tired motorist will get impatient and finally decide to take the more free lane. Traffic on the side of the road, look for movement, forwards or backwards, that's a warning signal. Wheels pointing towards the road? Expect them to do a u-turn or pull into the flow of traffic. Cars parked on the road side outside a park? Expect tired parents with screaming kids wanting an ice cream to pull out.

I could go on forever about hazard awareness. In my defensive driving course 20yrs ago we had to identify effing traffic poles as hazards, not because we could crash into them, but because they could just fall over in front of us. Likely? Not really. But there is a lesson in that itself.

I will add, despite my few offs in my riding career I have never been hit by a car in town or the open road.

[ducatilover]

What about the right front wheel turned to right lock?

I have seen some U-turning wombles wait 'till they're moving before the hook it right.
But, never trust anyone on the side of the road

[Katman]

I have seen some U-turning wombles wait 'till they're moving before the hook it right.
But, never trust anyone on the side of the road

So if they're moving they're an immediate hazard to be aware of.

[ducatilover]

So if they're moving they're an immediate hazard to be aware of.
Yes.

What people are trying to get at here is, when you're more or less beside one and they suddenly hook it out.

I'll probably get flattened by one, I'm considered blind in my left eye :shutup:

[Grubber]

Yes, heaven forbid that we should expect motorcyclists to exercise their brains while riding.

Jeez Dude.... read it properly.
I didn't say anything about us not using OUR brains, it was about trying to know what the car drivers brains were up to. sheesh, how did you extract that from what i said????:facepalm:

[Katman]

Jeez Dude.... read it properly.
I didn't say anything about us not using OUR brains, it was about trying to know what the car drivers brains were up to. sheesh, how did you extract that from what i said????:facepalm:

It's not a case of knowing what they're thinking, it's a case of trying to figure out what they're thinking.

[Katman]

Yes.

What people are trying to get at here is, when you're more or less beside one and they suddenly hook it out.

I'll probably get flattened by one, I'm considered blind in my left eye :shutup:

Approach with caution, positioning yourself closer to the centre line and when you're at the point of no return be prepared to swerve onto the other side of the road (they're not likely to be doing a U-turn if traffic is coming the other way) and accelerate past if necessary.

If there's any doubt as to whether they're aware of you approaching, use your horn. Contrary to popular belief, horns aren't fitted to vehicles as a "fuck you" device.

[Grubber]

You guys (oneofsix, grubber) are arguing from your current knowledge and skill base. You're kind of ignoring the fact that you improve as you gain experience and knowlwedge, IF you have the right mindset and you learn to identify clueless road users and hazards simply by glancing at them. This improvement is infinite in scope, at least until you shuffle off, or decide you're not up for riding a bike any more.

Your subconcious is really good at compiling experience into implicit knowledge and if you actively seek to develop the correct habits and modify those over time as necessary, your subconcious will look at the dirty Nissan Primera with the large middle age woman driving, a car which is dirty, has mismatched tyres, a broken indicator lense, and rubbish poking up above the level of the windows and will identify that vehicle as being piloted by someone who won't see you and won't have any regard for your safety - if you've had the same experiences I've had. You will note the driver parallel to you on the motorway two lanes over and slightly behind you but not in your mirrors, your peripheral vision will send a message to habitual response centre and you'll accelerate out of harm's way before they try to occupy your space with no indication or warning. An exercised subconsious will identify these risks almost instantly.

Try to be a bit more open-minded about this topic. It isn't definable as having predictable outcomes or an end-state of competence, nor will you operate at the same skill and knowledge level your whole life. If you do, you'll keep having the same problems over and over.

I agree with nearly all of this. to the point where i have learnt over the years that all is never as it seems.
I think we all should know that it is not desirable to judge a book by it's cover. There is plenty of people out there that drive the best of cars with the shiniest of wheels etc that do in fact drive like a moron. this includes bike riders. You can judge the best you can, but it will never eliminate the exact idiot or the human error that we are all capable of at any time.
I sit here and tell you that i have only had 2 accidents in my riding time of nearly 35 years and yes i do know my awareness skills are right up there. This does not automatically exempt me from a fuckup.
Sub concious skills are also not infallible.
Not saying we all shouldn't be trying really hard though.:Punk:

[Grubber]

It's not a case of knowing what they're thinking, it's a case of trying to figure out what they're thinking.

Oh fuck me!! :facepalm:If you can figure out what they are thinking, then you kinda do know what they are thinking perhaps don't you. Same difference really, except you have some weird way of putting it in a sentence.
End of the day, you are never going to know what the fuck they are thinking. Thats a fact you can't deny, unless your telepathic of coarse.

[Katman]

Oh fuck me!! :facepalm:If you can figure out what they are thinking, then you kinda do know what they are thinking perhaps don't you. Same difference really, except you have some weird way of putting it in a sentence.
End of the day, you are never going to know what the fuck they are thinking. Thats a fact you can't deny, unless your telepathic of coarse.

The very fact that you're trying to figure out what they're thinking means your brain is working - which gives you a greater chance of taking adequate evasive action if necessary.





But feel free to continue making yourself look stupid if you wish.

[oneofsix]

Jeez Dude.... read it properly.
I didn't say anything about us not using OUR brains, it was about trying to know what the car drivers brains were up to. sheesh, how did you extract that from what i said????:facepalm:

none so blind ....
He is good at slicing and dicing what you say to extract a tiny bit he can then misrepresent. He is a real exspurt

[Katman]

but i also wouldn't say we can avoid 90% of riders accidents by thinking for other people

Who ever said we had to?

A shit load of those "90% of rider's accidents" don't even involve another vehicle.

Can you see how your inability to comprehend basic English puts your argument at a disadvantage right from the outset?

[Ocean1]

I'm not even going to define the two sides of this arguement. Yes, it's true that most accidents may have been avoided by behaving differently. It's also true that experience makes for a steadily improving baseline of abilities useful in predicting the behavour of both our machines and other drivers.

Also, it's true that purposfully denying onself the "excuse" that not everything is under one's control will improve one's performance. In spite of this, if you genuinely think that all you've got to do to guarantee your safety is to maintain you're god-like powers of observation without blinking then that U-turning sedan 20ft beyond the wet steel manhole cover is going to come as something of a shock.

Also: understand that different people, with different experience bases will have potentially hugely different survival instincts / lore. I've followed JD, for example through some reasonably brisk riding, and he's very smooth, his lines and general bike attitudes very repeatable wrt similar situations, I'd recognise him at a distance in two seconds. They're also quite different to mine, we're different people, informed by learning from different riding backgrounds.

He's better than me in so much as he'd get more out of a bike than I would. That doesn't make my "lore" less valid. So while I'd listen to suggestions about how to get a tenth of a second earlier look through a corner, I'd take a dim view if he tried to suggest I my own survival mechansims and techniques were innefective shit. For example, if an advanced riding trainer told me to put the centreline of my front wheel on the edge of the yellow line on a blind right hander I'd cheerfully tell him to fuck right off. On the other hand he'd probably frown at my poor native ballance skills. Different lore.

Nothing is learned as hard as knowledge based on your own experiences, and that makes the pain of early mistakes valuable. But amongst the general opinionated shit in this thread there are several actual instances of suggestions to do with good roadcraft. Stuff that finds an echo amongst my own thoughts. Wouldn't it be fucking loverly if there was more roadcraft tips discussed, and less bullshit?

[Katman]

In spite of this, if you genuinely think that all you've got to do to guarantee your safety is to maintain you're god-like powers of observation without blinking then that U-turning sedan 20ft beyond the wet steel manhole cover is going to come as something of a shock.



Thanks for the warning.

I'll look out for it.

[Grubber]

The very fact that you're trying to figure out what they're thinking means your brain is working - which gives you a greater chance of taking adequate evasive action if necessary.





But feel free to continue making yourself look stupid if you wish.

Down to name calling now are we???
So how much time would you like me to spend figuring out what they are THINKING before i run into something else.
Don't you think (maybe you don't)that it would be quite time consuming focussing on what you THINK the other road user may be THINKING.
Does anyone else see the funny side of this conversation or is it just me who seems to think it's like talking to a teenager here.:facepalm:

[swbarnett]

:confused:...hmmm, I don't remember seeing you guys there (You could have at least helped me get PhatGirl back on the road!...fat bitch got bogged in the mud! :laugh:)

To be fair to all the drivers involved, the conditions were absolutely atrocious!, ....
I'm not saying that what the car in front did was in any way sensible. If all they were doing was looking at the hail then it was downright stupid. However, a stationary car cannot be held responsible for being rear-ended (no matter how fast they stopped).

I've been in situations like you describe where visibility falls to nothing in a matter of secods (or less). The weather only becomes a contributing factor to a collision if the following distances are too small (as is the case almost all the time in Auckland).

It occurrs to me that you managed to stop in time. Surely that at least implies that the ute should've been able to as well? Especially when the car they had to stop for wasn't even the vehicle directly in front of them.

[Katman]

Don't you think (maybe you don't)that it would be quite time consuming focussing on what you THINK the other road user may be THINKING.


Only if ones brain operated as slowly as yours appears to.

[swbarnett]

Yes.

What people are trying to get at here is, when you're more or less beside one and they suddenly hook it out.
I've had this happen. That's what the throttle is for. Just slide left and move like the devil himself is after you.

[Grubber]

Only if ones brain operated as slowly as yours appears to.

There ya go again with the personal insults.
Usually a sign of low intelligence I've been told. Seems to ring true in this case, judging by the previous statements in this thread.
Give us a shout when you come up with something a little more substantial.:facepalm:

[blue rider]

Wouldn't it be fucking loverly if there was more roadcraft tips discussed, and less bullshit?

yes please......it would not only loverly, but educational....oh my:corn:

[Ocean1]

yes please......it would not only loverly, but educational....oh my:corn:

When coming to a stop at the lights in the middle of town wearing 32" flared Levis always make sure it's your left foot that goes down.

[James Deuce]

Most definitely don't try to put your foot down with the kick start up your trouser leg.

[Ocean1]

yes please......it would not only loverly, but educational....oh my:corn:


When coming to a stop at the lights in the middle of town wearing 32" flared Levis always make sure it's your left foot that goes down.

That's bullshit too, innit.

It's difficult to know how much is obvious, not worth mentioning, and what's usefull.

OK. For me what makes up the largest part of the most usefull bit is this: You are the centre of a sphere of potential hazards. Your objective is to put as much time or distance between each hazard and yourself. The more likely and/or more serious the hazards the greater the distance you should plan to be from it.

The first thing you need to make this work is an excellent perception of potential hazards. This is the facility that most of the crusty old fuckers bang on about, it takes lots of practice but in essence it's just a self-taught refinement of your normal human focus on your surroundings. Picture yourself naked and alone in a wildlife park at night, get the picture?

To learn this, develop the habit of picturing in your mind an actual hazard map of your immediate surroundings. Add hazards that might occur or arrive within the next few seconds. If you could record the map an experienced rider might have in his head at any time it would certainly include a great deal more detail than that of a novice, and here's the funny thing: he probably couldn't tell you what some of them were, they're just subliminal feelings of anxiety eminating from a certain direction/time.

Hazards range from an unidentified small fuzzy patch on the road up ahead, (possible traction issue, drift 6" right), a cluster of signs on the roadside, (limited escape options in that direction, change line slightly to make another escape option work better), WRB centreline on a left hand curve, (change line from RH wheeltracks to LH wheeltracks) to more serious threats like that fucking great Semi sticking his nose out from the right at that intersection up ahead, (roll off throttle, drift left) or the sound of rubber sliding across asphalt behind you somewhere. What you do about each hazard becomes a far easier problem to deal with when you've spotted it several seconds before you get there.

I doubt there's ever just one hazard involved in an effective map, in fact there's a constant stream of them, so you're lines, gear, speed etc are constantly changing to balance them all. Funnily enough if you conciously work at it eventually you'll get pretty good at it. I suspect I miss several significant hazards every ride, but that's well better than your average commuter, and I'm still working on it...

[Geordie_Biker6]

Thank you people, for bringing this thread back on topic!!!

Beyond all the bullshit, mindgames, accusations, verbal attacks and finger pointing, this is about self improvement.

So, forget the past as it is such, look forward as to how we as individual bikers and as a community can help each other to improve various aspects of our riding. Do people know of any upcoming rider training? Are there more experienced riders willing to follow some less experienced riders out and share some tips and info? I think most importantly though, have you heard of Keith Code?!?!?!

I have his first book (Twist of the wrist) and it truly is the bikers bible. I also have the dvd of Twist of the wrist II. They are absolutely brilliant and i fully reccomend them. If you dont have a copy, go get one. I promise you it will be the best money you have ever spent!

[James Deuce]

Twist of the Wrist claims to embrace both road and track, but the reality is that it is a book about controlling your bike on a race track better and understanding the physics of riding a motorcycle really fast. It starts of talking about road and track and quickly drops any pretense of teaching road riders about threat management, whihc I view as the most important skill of riding on the road.

Keith Code is a genius. He's the first person to actively analyse his riding and break down into a teachable syllabus. There are elements you can steal for riding on the road, but Twist of the Wrist does not do a good job teaching anything about road riding habits. Brilliant tool for the track. Great way to get yourself really messed up on the road.

Before being kindly leant a bike to ride again, I read everything I could. Twist of the Wrist was up first, and it immediately struck me how much of my attention budget Mr Code was suggesting I apply to riding a bike. It was more than I felt was safe employing in a road environment, plus, and I think this is very important, there was no space for fun.

[Grubber]

Twist of the Wrist claims to embrace both road and track, but the reality is that it is a book about controlling your bike on a race track better and understanding the physics of riding a motorcycle really fast. It starts of talking about road and track and quickly drops any pretense of teaching road riders about threat management, whihc I view as the most important skill of riding on the road.

Keith Code is a genius. He's the first person to actively analyse his riding and break down into a teachable syllabus. There are elements you can steal for riding on the road, but Twist of the Wrist does not do a good job teaching anything about road riding habits. Brilliant tool for the track. Great way to get yourself really messed up on the road.

Before being kindly leant a bike to ride again, I read everything I could. Twist of the Wrist was up first, and it immediately struck me how much of my attention budget Mr Code was suggesting I apply to riding a bike. It was more than I felt was safe employing in a road environment, plus, and I think this is very important, there was no space for fun.

While i agree with your statements about the book, thus also goes for his dvd, if you do 1 or 2 levels of the superbike school you would find that it does in fact give you plenty of schooling towards visual aids. 3 point turns and seeing through the corners etc all contribute to being aware of your surroundings. I for one would recommend it and i have been riding for many years.
While the book does give you some vary valid ideas in this department, it doesn't cover it as well as it does when you do the coarse. I am about to do level 3 next weekend and would suggest you give it a try before you make your mind up totally. The teach you to scan far and wide ahead as you go.
There are other courses out there that also do a great job of developing awareness too i believe.
Having said that, there is also a lot to be said for seat time to develop these things while you ride also.
As for the fun aspect, that all comes later when you become more competent in riding. Once you have mastered a few of the essential skills involved in keeping upright you can then start enjoying it also. I believe it is more esential that we master the art of riding first so we can enjoy it later. Very much like getting a pilots licence perhaps, we wouldn't want someone flying us around without first doing the hard yards.

[James Deuce]

I think track days and track based courses for riders who are predominantly road riders are largely a waste of money. If I was going to get back into racing big time I'd spend a year getting the CSS courses under my belt before I applied for my race licence. There needs to be courses at that level of detail and difficulty for road riders with a focus on dealing with the hazards as well as improving and understanding motorcycle control and dynamics.

I've never understood the argument that it's better to do these courses on the track where there's no hazards. That is the same logic that has produced an education environment where no one fails, they just don't succeed to the same level as the people doing better than them. Just like life, motorcycling tends to be pass or fail, with disastrous consequences for getting it wrong. Track based schools like CSS teach people how to ride better but not how to apply their increase in available attention budget to managing risk in a realistic fashion. They can say that they have provided you with the scope to make yourself safer on the road. I seldom see people apply themselves in that way after the course.

[Brian407]

Down to name calling now are we???
So how much time would you like me to spend figuring out what they are THINKING before i run into something else.
Don't you think (maybe you don't)that it would be quite time consuming focussing on what you THINK the other road user may be THINKING.


Ummmm...... It's called ANTICIPATING what another road user may be going to do, and whether or not it's going to affect you. It takes about a nano second and is something done by most apt road users many times a day. Are you seriuosly suggesting that it's a waste of time?? and that you DONT do it???

[Katman]

Ummmm...... It's called ANTICIPATING what another road user may be going to do, and whether or not it's going to affect you. It takes about a nano second and is something done by most apt road users many times a day. Are you seriuosly suggesting that it's a waste of time?? and that you DONT do it???

Come on man, he doesn't have to.

He's done the Californian Superbike School.

[Ocean1]

I've never understood the argument that it's better to do these courses on the track where there's no hazards. That is the same logic that has produced an education environment where no one fails, they just don't succeed to the same level as the people doing better than them. Just like life, motorcycling tends to be pass or fail, with disastrous consequences for getting it wrong.

Except in the dirt. The road's no place to learn how to ride either.

Have you seen that wee playground street setup down in the duckpond park? I'd love to see a road riding course set up like that, but layed out over several acres of dirt track. Keep it to 1st and second gear, work out some random hazards and video the vict... er, course participants for later review.

I'm sure I can work up a mobile gorse bush to leap out and administer lessons to the unobservant of a suitable degree of pain. They taught me all I know...

[ducatilover]

I have his first book (Twist of the wrist) and it truly is the bikers bible. I also have the dvd of Twist of the wrist II. They are absolutely brilliant and i fully reccomend them. If you dont have a copy, go get one. I promise you it will be the best money you have ever spent!

I have both, great books.
But, they are very race orientated and not completely usable for road riding. Although if you apply everything it makes such an amzing difference to your riding!
I used to be shit, now I'm just crap

[Sliver]

Giant walls of text. Brain...melting....

But very good points.

Having said that, it is motorcyclists I am most wary of. They are vastly more unpredictable than most other road users whose behaviour can usually be predicted with a fair amount of certainty, once one has gained some "experience".

+1, but was worth the read.

[The Singing Chef]

I think track days and track based courses for riders who are predominantly road riders are largely a waste of money. If I was going to get back into racing big time I'd spend a year getting the CSS courses under my belt before I applied for my race licence. There needs to be courses at that level of detail and difficulty for road riders with a focus on dealing with the hazards as well as improving and understanding motorcycle control and dynamics.

I've never understood the argument that it's better to do these courses on the track where there's no hazards. That is the same logic that has produced an education environment where no one fails, they just don't succeed to the same level as the people doing better than them. Just like life, motorcycling tends to be pass or fail, with disastrous consequences for getting it wrong. Track based schools like CSS teach people how to ride better but not how to apply their increase in available attention budget to managing risk in a realistic fashion. They can say that they have provided you with the scope to make yourself safer on the road. I seldom see people apply themselves in that way after the course.

I disagree, there are things that you can learn from the track, especially if you are a newer rider. Such as, learning how to settle the bike into a corner, body positioning to make the most of your bike, what your bike can actually accomplish and how you can apply that when you have an "Oh shit" moment mid corner.

There have been things that I have learnt about my bike, and my 650 that has helped in terms of how I take my bike through corners and riding normally, from weighting the pegs properly and setting up touch points on my bike so that the bike is as stable as it can be and still has the ability to make it's own adjustments when it needs too.

I now take corners safer and when I do overcook it a little bit, I am in a calm frame of mind and am able to get the bike to slow down safely and make the corner. Mind you these are the ART days and not the normal track days where there are no instructors there.

Hazards are a different story and can be learnt in other ways such as in a carpark, like controlling rear wheel skids and maximising your vision, controlling your braking etc...

I believe it has a place for you to learn another set of skills, and any skill is a good skill.

[Katman]

Jim never said that track days have nothing to offer to road riding.

However, the skills learned at a trackday are generally best transfered to the road as a means used to get you out of trouble.

Unfortunately, many motorcyclists seem to use the skills they learn at trackdays to get themselves into trouble on the road.

[The Singing Chef]

Jim never said that track days have nothing to offer to road riding.

However, the skills learned at a trackday are generally best transfered to the road as a means used to get you out of trouble.

Unfortunately, many motorcyclists seem to use the skills they learn at trackdays to get themselves into trouble on the road.

Oops, I skimmed over it, bit tired which never helps.

Yea I can understand how they could use the skills to get themselves into trouble on the road which is unfortunate, but I have seen positive effects predominately, for example. Westy_mate, he finally came along to the ART day and learnt how to actually turn a bloody corner :facepalm: and I also gave him a "Total control" book to read to help his riding out and he has now improved in leaps and bounds which is comforting to see, considering I don't want to be going to a funeral any time soon.