Crafar Farms? [Archive] - Kiwi Biker forums

StoneY

27th January 2012, 17:50

Jantar

27th January 2012, 17:54

It appears the receivers could have got more if the farms were sold off individually rather trhan as a group.

I have no objection to foreign ownership as long as New Zealanders have at least an equal chance. By selling the farms as a group rather than individually, New Zealanders did not get an equal chance.

James Deuce

27th January 2012, 18:10

Given the model of Chinese land ownership in evidence all over the world, I would expect the ex-Crafar farms to rapidly become enclaves of Chinese society, with all produce exported along with any profit. There will be no local benefit.

Virago

27th January 2012, 18:14

mashman

27th January 2012, 18:17

Yup, great move to sell the farms to China... we're gonna need the money for something really really important at some point and not just some useless tracts of land. Think about all of the local jobs that will be created, the taxes that will be generated, not to mention the water usage revenues. Nope, great move, much better than selling to Kiwi's... they'll have money for electricity shares now.

cmoore

27th January 2012, 18:27

James Deuce

27th January 2012, 18:30

Unfortunately this sale does show a tendancy to ingrained racism, whether we want to admit it or not.

No-one worried too much when Shania Twain bought a property which is bigger than all the Crafar Farms put together.

No it doesn't. That is a common refrain from right-wing oriented commentators designed to quell any critical commentary from "right-thinking" liberal Kiwis. There are multiple examples of the Chinese taking ownership of land and businesses in countries foreign to them and simply removing any capability for the local yokels to share in any productive long or short term gains.

Shania Twain is an individual with no or limited political influence in her native land. The Chinese model of politics precludes any doubt that this isn't motivated by more than the simple desire for a single, very rich individual to capitalise on decades of hard work in exchange for a modern lifestyle with a rustic outlook in a comparatively safe physical, political, and economic environment.

I hesitate to say that it is the start of a land grab, but would not be surprised to see this become the start of a snowball that outstrips the expectations of those supposedly moderating foreign investment in New Zealand soil.

98tls

27th January 2012, 18:37

Am I the only one who thinks that selling this hugely valuable land to foreigners is wrong?

Opinions please .....

Mine is:

The farms sitting on illegally confiscated land in the 19th century be given back to respective Iwi's (hell they even wanted to pay for it!)
The rest could be leased to the Chinese consortium's, or sold to the Michael Faye lead group.

My rant over, whats your take?.

So Iwi wanted to buy it with what,beads? i doubt it no they would want to buy it with money leeched off New Zealanders which is even more sickening,good job its gone to who it has as theres a fair chance they will put it to good use and some New Zealanders will gain from it.The other option would have seen a fuck up like everything else thats given to Iwi."illegally confiscated":laugh:fuck thats getting boring.

Bikemad

27th January 2012, 18:37

There are multiple examples of the Chinese taking ownership of land and businesses in countries foreign to them and simply removing any capability for the local yokels to share in any productive long or short term gains.

just out of curiosity...........examples please.........other than tibet
and shania ........grrrrrr

98tls

27th January 2012, 18:41

mashman

27th January 2012, 18:42

just out of curiosity...........examples please.........other than tibet
and shania ........grrrrrr

"China towns" around the globe? ... they ain't exactly full of whitey.

FJRider

27th January 2012, 18:44

Unfortunately this sale does show a tendancy to ingrained racism, whether we want to admit it or not.

No-one worried too much when Shania Twain bought a property which is bigger than all the Crafar Farms put together.

A large part of Central Otago (Queenstown included) has been bought with overseas money.

Chinese money features ... but is NOT the big player ...

Brian d marge

27th January 2012, 18:58

Don't worry this is common
the ski areas up north in Japan are owned by the Australians and large chunks by the Chinese
a very good point is about the Maori. I have said all along in my big list of things to do is support iwi if you want NZ to remain NZ.. its a little bit more than that , but its the gist.
Now China is future proofing itself but heres the rub ( hamlet act 5?) if China and the Chinese way of business is the way I think it is, then expect animals and the land to be "stretched" ..I wont say exploited but .........
what what did Marx and Engles say in that little red book ....all property in the past has continually been subject to historical change ,consequent upon change in historical conditions, for example didn't the French in one of their many moments of pissed off,ness abolish feudal property in favor of bourgeois property..
as usual the rich will prosper.,keep China happy fontera will laugh all the way to skegness...

twas the same with the railway, , Jethro tull move up a few notches with his wee tricks
So at the end of the day, profit is king ( under the present and foreseeable future) the rich will consolidate their position and the land and we,the unlanded gentry will suffer

support Maori on this one , and smash those spinning Jenny's IMHO

Stephen

Zamiam

27th January 2012, 19:00

Haven't paid a hell of a lot of attention to this BUT the creditors/mortgage holders of Crafar farms are entitled to as much of their money back as the receiver can get them and that is the receivers job so would be surprised if this wasn't the best deal on the table.

I love these experts who say iwi or Fay's consortium should be allowed to buy them without knowing the deals. As far as Fay goes does no one remember the BNZ, NZ Rail etc sales and that little thing called the "winebox". Fuck I should have been allowed to buy it 1 cent on the dollar would a a good deal for me.

For all the "experts" I have this question - how would you feel if I was offering you the best deal on your prized possession and someone told you that you couldn't sell it o me but you can sell it to John down the road who's offer was less than mine. Don't come back at me with "but this is our land" becauses it's not. It's owned by someone, in this case the banks and creditors who have effectively bought it for a loss and are entitled to sell it or the best price.

Lecture over :yes:

Bikemad

27th January 2012, 19:02

"China towns" around the globe? ... they ain't exactly full of whitey.

your gonna have to be a bit more specific than that mate............wheres NZ chinatown then?

vifferman

27th January 2012, 19:03

So Iwi wanted to buy it with what,beads? i doubt it no they would want to buy it with money leeched off New Zealanders which is even more sickening,good job its gone to who it has as theres a fair chance they will put it to good use and some New Zealanders will gain from it.The other option would have seen a fuck up like everything else thats given to Iwi."illegally confiscated":laugh:fuck thats getting boring.
With all respect, Dude - you need to read up on your New Zealand history. It may be 'boring' but there's no doubt that the real fuck up was the way the original "New Zealanders" were treated. Yes, it would be nice if we could all just be New Zealanders and forget about history, but there's a huge injustice that was done in the past that can't just be buried. I felt much the same as you, but listening to a Canadian Noo Zilunder who knew more about this country's history than a fifth-generation Kiwi motivated me to go and read more about it. I'm both glad and sorry I did.

It seems hugely short-sighted for the gummint to decide in favour of a short-term gain, but I won't be at all surprised to see a lot more of ill-considered asset sales and loss of sovereignty for a quick buck. "I told you so" won't fix it...

98tls

27th January 2012, 19:08

With all respect, Dude - you need to read up on your New Zealand history. It may be 'boring' but there's no doubt that the real fuck up was the way the original "New Zealanders" were treated. Yes, it would be nice if we could all just be New Zealanders and forget about history, but there's a huge injustice that was done in the past that can't just be buried.

It seems hugely short-sighted for the gummint to decide in favour of a short-term gain, but I won't be at all surprised to see a lot more of ill-considered asset sales and loss of sovereignty for a quick buck. "I told you so" won't fix it...

With all respect thats your opinion and your entitled (:shit:oops) to it,its not one i agree with though.

James Deuce

27th January 2012, 19:11

"A land grab"/"removing any capability for the local yokels to share"that rings a bell:confused:let me think.

Yes it does. Doesn't make it right, nor should "we" ignore that particular lesson. It should inform our current decision making process. Economic colonisation is far more insidious than armies marching up to your door.

mashman

27th January 2012, 19:14

your gonna have to be a bit more specific than that mate............wheres NZ chinatown then?

coming to a field near you soon apparently :bleh: ... similar to little Italy's and little India's, I really don't have a problem with them other than they segregate the wider community and promote/provoke racism. Just wondering is the buyer buying it on behalf of the Chinese govt? If so, could they setup marijuana fields and claim diplomatic immunity?

James Deuce

27th January 2012, 19:15

For all the "experts" I have this question - how would you feel if I was offering you the best deal on your prized possession and someone told you that you couldn't sell it o me but you can sell it to John down the road who's offer was less than mine. Don't come back at me with "but this is our land" becauses it's not. It's owned by someone, in this case the banks and creditors who have effectively bought it for a loss and are entitled to sell it or the best price.

"Feel" has nothing to do with it. More often it is achieved by fait accompli with little regard to the law, particularly when foreign political and economic drivers motivate the process. New Zealand has little to no economic influence, and our Government appears to be motivated by the long-term self-interest of its politicians, not what is best for the country as a whole, both acknowledged cultures inclusive.

mashman

27th January 2012, 19:16

It seems hugely short-sighted for the gummint to decide in favour of a short-term gain, but I won't be at all surprised to see a lot more of ill-considered asset sales and loss of sovereignty for a quick buck. "I told you so" won't fix it...

backdoor austerity measure?

TrentNz

27th January 2012, 19:18

don't really care as-long as they don't give it back to them fuckn Maoris.

James Deuce

27th January 2012, 19:21

don't really care as-long as they don't give it back to them fuckn Maoris.

Here's an example of racism. Unthinking hostility toward an ethnic group due to ill-informed opinions based in "common knowledge" and modern mythology.

People who don't agree with Chinese investment in New Zealand are not automatically racist. They have a different opinion about what constitutes a wise long-term investment policy.

phill-k

27th January 2012, 19:24

Unfortunately this sale does show a tendancy to ingrained racism, whether we want to admit it or not.

No-one worried too much when Shania Twain bought a property which is bigger than all the Crafar Farms put together.

Actually you are wrong most don't care about selling businesses, leases, and all the rest but when it comes to land, black white pink or green we need to own it as the Aussies, and all the other smart countries are proclaiming.
Don't try find a case of racism when there isn't. We are waking up to the fact that our land is precious and needs to remain in the ownership of NZr's. This is but the catalyst. Just look across the Tasman and their policies.

Ocean1

27th January 2012, 19:24

A prediction: They'll be a more successful investment for the new owners than they were for the last.

phill-k

27th January 2012, 19:27

NZ borrows billions to buy homes and businesses, nearly all of that money is borrowed from Australian Banks, where does all the profit go from that and how is that different from the Chinese buying land, they can't take the land anywhere.....

I have no problem with it.

I also have no issue if the country decided we didn't want to have oversees ownership and passed a law to protect it.

In a word bullshit, the very last thing you sell before turning off the lights is the land, Key doesn't give a fuck because shortly (next term) he is out of here, thankfully so am I, I be dead in 1 - 30 yrs and the chinese can kiss my ass

Ocean1

27th January 2012, 19:28

We are waking up to the fact that our land is precious and needs to remain in the ownership of NZr's.

I recall buying non-residential acreage a couple of decades ago. I had to demonstrate I was a native before the deal happened. Somewhere since then something's obviously changed.

Teflon

27th January 2012, 19:28

We let to many of these fuckers in anyway.. fuck it, sell them our land to..

and fuck those black cunts to.. they have stopped access to some very good waterways

phill-k

27th January 2012, 19:29

phill-k

27th January 2012, 19:33

just out of curiosity...........examples please.........other than tibet
and shania ........grrrrrr

Watch and see, use the internet to educate yourself. They will continue with their philosophy of from wo to go, won't be much room for NZers' and NZ type wages. They have been securing land all over the place to build milk processing plants and will employ their own at their own rates. You can guarantee the returns to NZ will be no existent.

phill-k

27th January 2012, 19:34

A large part of Central Otago (Queenstown included) has been bought with overseas money.

Chinese money features ... but is NOT the big player ...

Buy the businesses and anything else but not the bloody land. lease it to them but don't give up the royalty.

phill-k

27th January 2012, 19:36

TrentNz

27th January 2012, 19:36

Here's an example of racism. Unthinking hostility toward an ethnic group due to ill-informed opinions based in "common knowledge" and modern mythology.

People who don't agree with Chinese investment in New Zealand are not automatically racist. They have a different opinion about what constitutes a wise long-term investment policy.

The Maoris have taken enough of our land.
they sold/traded it to us for guns and women.

phill-k

27th January 2012, 19:38

don't really care as-long as they don't give it back to them fuckn Maoris.

time you exported yourself this is our land. - NZer's

EJK

27th January 2012, 19:38

China could probably buy the whole country land if given the opportunity.

Selling NZ land to oversea country.... hmmmm... They'll probably never get it back.

P.S. Are they selling it on Trademe? What's the reserve? :eek:

98tls

27th January 2012, 19:38

Fuck off the bloody wanker wait antil they shaft you up the ass

:laugh:Yea good one fella.New Zealanders have been shafted for years and not by the Chinese.Theres nothing worse than being shafted in your own back yard,thats if it is indeed your own back yard as you never know really eh.

TrentNz

27th January 2012, 19:39

Well to be honest, i dont want the maoris or any other country having NZ's land.

mashman

27th January 2012, 19:40

China could probably buy the whole country land if given the opportunity.

Selling NZ land to oversea country.... hmmmm... They'll probably never get it back.

Will they invade to defend it?

Anyhoo, anyone fancy a free local economy, t'would negate the need for selling the country's assets :)

phill-k

27th January 2012, 19:47

At the end of the day this is a bloody great country, most of us will never make the money those in the top 10% are who want to self indulge but forget the country and peoples that have allowed them to do well. Maori, Pakaha, who really cares so long as we own it and maintain the country we have. We have not crashed and burned like so many others in these turbulent times. Yes business isn't as good as it has been but it will come back, we can still ride, the weathers good, the roads are ok and this is the best fucken place in the world to live!

vifferman

27th January 2012, 19:54

The Maoris have taken enough of our land.
they sold/traded it to us for guns and women.
Really? You should check your source of facts more carefully. A lot of it was 'sold' to immigrants without any consultation with the owners. In some cases, the gummint passed laws in contravention of a binding, signed agreement they had with the owners (effectively making those laws meaningless), so that it appeared they had the right to sell it, take it into gummint ownership, or confiscate it. In other cases, they dreamed up bogus reasons for confiscation, and killed, drve off or imprisoned the lawful owners when they objected.
In some cases, they actually bought it fairly, but not at a fair price. Perhaps in a few cases, there may have been land sold/traded for guns and other trinkets, but I think you'll find there are few of those.

In any case - you'd think given the past apalling history of crappy, ill-considered land deals, the gummint would be more careful. However, as has been pointed out, there are those in the current (and past) government that are self-serving and don't intend to be here if the country is fuktover by foreign owners...

FJRider

27th January 2012, 19:58

Buy the businesses and anything else but not the bloody land. lease it to them but don't give up the royalty.

All staff in ALL those business's pay tax ... and ALL customers pay GST.

Foreign owned business's are well supported by their own nationals ... more so than Kiwi customers ...

A lot of those foreign business owners are ALREADY NZ citizens anyway. WHERE the money originated is of little importance ... NOW ...

Indiana_Jones

27th January 2012, 20:06

your gonna have to be a bit more specific than that mate............wheres NZ chinatown then?

NZ's Asia town is Bucklame.

When in East Tamaki the other day I was playing spot the honkey lol

-Indy

98tls

27th January 2012, 20:09

Motu

27th January 2012, 20:24

It will give much needed employment opportunities to hundreds of unemployed Asians. The salesman in our agricultural department is looking forward to his Mandarin lessons...and increased commission from extra sales.

Zamiam

27th January 2012, 20:49

"Feel" has nothing to do with it. More often it is achieved by fait accompli with little regard to the law, particularly when foreign political and economic drivers motivate the process. New Zealand has little to no economic influence, and our Government appears to be motivated by the long-term self-interest of its politicians, not what is best for the country as a whole, both acknowledged cultures inclusive.

Very easy to take the high ground / "ideal" when it's not your money the government wouldn't be allowing you o get back.

Zamiam

27th January 2012, 21:02

Fuck off you stupid pommel count this is our land

Right back at you - I'm of Ngati Rahiri of Te Ati Awa descent amongst everything else - what are you? A dole bludging immigrant by any chance?

Hey doesn't mean I agree with selling NZ to the foreigners BUT I also don't agree with government telling me who I can sell MY property to.

And for those ignorant racists out their - funnily enough some Maori hapus actually have "Asian" genes. One train of thought is that at least one of the "junks" of the great eunuch fleet was ship wrecked down south. So maybe the Chinese actuall arrived here before the Anglo Saxtons etc.

98tls

27th January 2012, 21:15

Right back at you - I'm of Ngati Rahiri of Te Ati Awa descent amongst everything else - what are you? A dole bludging immigrant by any chance?

Hey doesn't mean I agree with selling NZ to the foreigners BUT I also don't agree with government telling me who I can sell MY property to.

And for those ignorant racists out their - funnily enough some Maori hapus actually have "Asian" genes. One train of thought is that at least one of the "junks" of the great eunuch fleet was ship wrecked down south. So maybe the Chinese actuall arrived here before the Anglo Saxtons etc.

Imagine that:blink:Wontons done in Hangi style:sick:no wonder KFCs so popular.

mashman

27th January 2012, 21:16

I woulda thought the next generation woulda been more important. Black Kiwi, White Kiwi, Yellow Kiwi, don't care, but as JK says, he'd hate for Kiwi to be tenants in their own land. Ahhh the future.

mashman

27th January 2012, 21:17

Imagine that:blink:Wontons done in Hangi style:sick:no wonder KFCs so popular.

don't go hatin on the KFC mate.

98tls

27th January 2012, 21:36

I woulda thought the next generation woulda been more important. Black Kiwi, White Kiwi, Yellow Kiwi, don't care, but as JK says, he'd hate for Kiwi to be tenants in their own land. Ahhh the future.

Damn right they should be,$2.5 billion and climbing would go a long way towards making it a better place for future generations of New Zealanders but no sir cant be having that,the thing that pisses me off the most is i live and work amongst many Maori and they like myself wonder how there any better off as they havent seen nor benefitted from one bit of it nor have there children.

puddytat

27th January 2012, 22:00

People who don't agree with Chinese investment in New Zealand are not automatically racist. They have a different opinion about what constitutes a wise long-term investment policy.

That,for me ,sums it up pretty well:yes:

mashman

27th January 2012, 22:24

Damn right they should be,$2.5 billion and climbing would go a long way towards making it a better place for future generations of New Zealanders but no sir cant be having that,the thing that pisses me off the most is i live and work amongst many Maori and they like myself wonder how there any better off as they havent seen nor benefitted from one bit of it nor have there children.

Excellent, that means the govt won't have to borrow money for about 8 weeks. I'm sure we'll see the benefits of that...

Edit: or 6.5 weeks according to this (http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1106/S00009/gordon-campbell-on-revelations-about-government-borrowing.htm) (there's a real reason for it though :blink:) and they still want to sell stuff.

puddytat

27th January 2012, 23:02

WTF!!!!!!:facepalm:

Virago

28th January 2012, 06:21

I rest my case...

Virago

28th January 2012, 07:09

...People who don't agree with Chinese investment in New Zealand are not automatically racist...

So it's more a case of economic fluctuations...?

Trade_nancy

28th January 2012, 07:47

your gonna have to be a bit more specific than that mate............wheres NZ chinatown then?
Isn't it on Queen Street, AK?

Grubber

28th January 2012, 08:15

No it doesn't. That is a common refrain from right-wing oriented commentators designed to quell any critical commentary from "right-thinking" liberal Kiwis. There are multiple examples of the Chinese taking ownership of land and businesses in countries foreign to them and simply removing any capability for the local yokels to share in any productive long or short term gains.

Shania Twain is an individual with no or limited political influence in her native land. The Chinese model of politics precludes any doubt that this isn't motivated by more than the simple desire for a single, very rich individual to capitalise on decades of hard work in exchange for a modern lifestyle with a rustic outlook in a comparatively safe physical, political, and economic environment.

I hesitate to say that it is the start of a land grab, but would not be surprised to see this become the start of a snowball that outstrips the expectations of those supposedly moderating foreign investment in New Zealand soil.

I think you will find that all the constraints that are put in place as part of the purchase will not allow them to do much more than farm as normal. I know they have to sell the milk fat to Fontera and they will have to rebuild these farms to a safe and usable commodity for dairying.
I could go on and on here, but i think you will find there is more than adequate restraints placed on them so that these properties are NZ gains.
What they are able to do in other countries is quite different to what they are able to do here.
It would have been nice to have them kiwi owned, but alas it was a kiwi that got us into this mess in the first place wasn't it! Recall the animal abuse etc that went on while in kiwi ownership.

Grubber

28th January 2012, 08:23

StoneY

28th January 2012, 11:05

So Iwi wanted to buy it with what,beads? .

Had you been watching the many interviews with the Michael Faye lead group, you would have seen two gentlemen from their local Iwi, who clearly stated they had offered the same money for the two farms which were land taken from them in the 1800's.

The overall Crafar package, the Chinese offer's 40 mil more (drop in the bucket for our economy)
these two parcels of land, they offered the same full price, and a businessman who is from that tribe and happens to be wealthy was donating his Iwi the cash.

The rest of your post I found to be racist and informatory dude.... and you have totally missed the point.

Thanks to all the others commenting, I see a recurring opinion coming through for you all.
Many bloody good statements and points to consider.

So...do we start a rebellion?

puddytat

28th January 2012, 11:33

It will be quite a lot harder with the new legislation that arose from Christchurch & the govts increased powers to invoke martial law....
then the rednecks'll slag us all to hell just like with the "Occupiers" who are standing thier ground on pretty much the same issues of foreign & corporate ownership.

mashman

28th January 2012, 12:37

Had you been watching the many interviews with the Michael Faye lead group, you would have seen two gentlemen from their local Iwi, who clearly stated they had offered the same money for the two farms which were land taken from them in the 1800's.

The overall Crafar package, the Chinese offer's 40 mil more (drop in the bucket for our economy)
these two parcels of land, they offered the same full price, and a businessman who is from that tribe and happens to be wealthy was donating his Iwi the cash.

The rest of your post I found to be racist and informatory dude.... and you have totally missed the point.

Thanks to all the others commenting, I see a recurring opinion coming through for you all.
Many bloody good statements and points to consider.

How quick would that 40 mill have been earned back by the local lads? Summit don't add up... I'm still going for Austerity without calling it austerity.

So...do we start a rebellion?

To what end? If I'm goin in and risking my liberty, then I'm going in hard and with a purpose... til then I'll just fester in my anger and hatred of everything that's financially related... bloody stupid way to run a country, let alone expecting things to change using the same old tired policies that haven't worked anywhere around the globe.

scumdog

28th January 2012, 13:44

It will give much needed employment opportunities to hundreds of 'SOON TO BE IMPORTED' unemployed Asians. The salesman in our agricultural department is looking forward to his Mandarin lessons...and increased commission from extra sales.

There, fixed it for you, no worries bro!

HenryDorsetCase

28th January 2012, 15:14

Am I the only one who thinks that selling this hugely valuable land to foreigners is wrong?

Opinions please .....

Mine is:

The farms sitting on illegally confiscated land in the 19th century be given back to respective Iwi's (hell they even wanted to pay for it!)
The rest could be leased to the Chinese consortium's, or sold to the Michael Faye lead group.

What is 30 million on a deal this big? Peanuts......... far more important not to let foreigners start owning our land.
Bad enough the power co selloffs.....

My rant over, whats your take?.

its already owned by foreigners. i.e. the fucking Strayan banks that got tucked into lending $200+ Mill on it in the first place. Our chinese overlords will be no worse.

in fact, they might be better. They couldnt be worse economic or environmental managers than Crafar. And the New Zealnd bid, led by no less than Michael Fay? Puh leaze! that fucker? He can get fucked! some people have short fucking memories, yeah?!

puddytat

28th January 2012, 22:41

More good news folks....Dairy Holdings is also up for sale, part of the ex Hubbard empire.The blurb on the telly was abit unclear whether it was to be sold to locals but Bill English did reassure us that the OIO would have to clear the deal if it was foreigners.....:wait:
I just hope that who ever buys them does a fucking far better job of managing the farm of theirs next door than the last lot & by that i mean the "Regional managers" not the farm managers. Im sure if next door is sold then the Tasman district will do a far better job of monitoring the constant cows in creeks problem & help stop our rivers in the Murchison having the worst ecoli counts in the entire region & up there with the worst in the South Island.<_<

pete376403

28th January 2012, 23:40

Could New Zealanders buy land in China? And not something in the middle of the desert somewhere, but prime farm land?

kevie

29th January 2012, 07:25

oldrider

29th January 2012, 07:47

its already owned by foreigners. i.e. the fucking Strayan banks that got tucked into lending $200+ Mill on it in the first place. Our chinese overlords will be no worse.

in fact, they might be better. They couldnt be worse economic or environmental managers than Crafar. And the New Zealnd bid, led by no less than Michael Fay? Puh leaze! that fucker? He can get fucked! some people have short fucking memories, yeah?!

True! Nothing more to say on this really! :no:

Shadowjack

29th January 2012, 10:01

I see that the company to run the farms, alongside Landcorp, is called "Milk New Zealand".
Is that a company name, or a statement of intent?

nosebleed

29th January 2012, 10:41

I know one of the 'M Fahey Consortium" members and going by what they said they DO have the dollars to buy the farms, but ........... I recon come hell or high water the government was determined to sell to the Chinese but needed to make it look like its a "last resort" sale....... is it because of some secret agenda or agreement as part of the free trade agreement they made with China???? who will ever know .... in our democracy its certainly a lot of secret stuff done behind our backs.

Personally I'm hoping it's because someone in a position to affect the outcome researched Michael Fay and realised what a self-serving thief he actually is.

if his angle is the whole "sell it NZ'ers and keep it NZ" then I'd liken it to selling a private hospital to Dr Mengele (yeah, I took it there).

Of the two options posted I say good on the Chinese, they can't do any worse than the previous owner, and chances are if Fay et al did end up owning the farms, they'd turn around and sell it to the Chinese anyway, only it'd be a private sale and NZ would see nothing of the deal.

mashman

29th January 2012, 17:34

dun dun dun another 72 bite the dust... (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/12753193/big-farm-sale-expected-in-new-zealand/)

puddytat

29th January 2012, 18:22

With Dairy Holdings I think alot of what has happened with it & Hubbard had alot to do with the Canterbury Plains Water Scheme & with the deal he did with ECan when he financed thier arses when it looked like going belly up......he stood to gain ALL the consented water rights to it ,if it didnt happen......:shifty:
In steps "Bill" English & the govt to stop that.Brother Connor also has his finger prints all over it.:shifty::shifty:
And Hubbards finances are investigated....:shifty::shifty::shifty:
Wasnt it not to long ago ,that the Govt. admitted that the money made from asset sales would be going into CPW scheme. So "we" are effectively subsidising private individuals & corporates to milk the country to the tune of mega bucks. Fucking nepotism I reckon.
Meanwhile we keep waiting for a packet of chewing gum...
So while we need export dollars i see this as a shitty business for most of us that will subsidise it, & no doubt if anything goes wrong enviromentally with rivers & aquifers it'll be yup, you guessed it, US that'll foot the "Bill":facepalm:

Winston001

29th January 2012, 18:26

Could New Zealanders buy land in China? And not something in the middle of the desert somewhere, but prime farm land?

An excellent and pertinent question. I don't know the answer but bear in mind China is a communist country. The land belongs to the government. Foreigners can buy houses and apartments but rural land? Doubt it.

Winston001

29th January 2012, 18:36

And the New Zealnd bid, led by no less than Michael Fay? Puh leaze! that fucker? He can get fucked! some people have short fucking memories, yeah?!

Maaate - high five! There are some of us who remember very well. I was a shareholder in Capital Markets and got shafted like everyone else by Faye and Richwhite.

I recon come hell or high water the government was determined to sell to the Chinese but needed to make it look like its a "last resort" sale....... is it because of some secret agenda or agreement as part of the free trade agreement they made with China???? who will ever know .... in our democracy its certainly a lot of secret stuff done behind our backs.

Repeat after me - THERE ARE NO CONSPIRACIES. Keep going until you start to grasp the essential concept. ;)

The government are not selling the Crafar farms. This is not public land. Australian banks who are owed a ton of money are selling and trying to get back as much as they can.

And if that isn't enough, there was a previous Chinese bid - which was refused by the Overseas Investment Commission. Why would that have happened if there was a secret agenda whereby the government forced the banks to sell the Crafar farms to China?

Fatt Max

29th January 2012, 19:26

No-one worried too much when Shania Twain bought a property which is bigger than all the Crafar Farms put together.

That's cos she has great tits.....

Fatt Max

29th January 2012, 19:27

Could New Zealanders buy land in China? And not something in the middle of the desert somewhere, but prime farm land?

Dont try it......never trust a man you can blindfold with a shoelace

mashman

30th January 2012, 23:06

Has someone been telling porky pies or just received some bad advice? (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/12760150/government-wrong-to-blame-fta-for-crafar-sales/)

oneofsix

31st January 2012, 05:56

Has someone been telling porky pies or just received some bad advice? (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/12760150/government-wrong-to-blame-fta-for-crafar-sales/)

Somebodies a pig farmer but you knew that already. Still it will make for several posts next election as each side tried blaming the other.

dipshit

31st January 2012, 06:45

Unfortunately this sale does show a tendancy to ingrained racism, whether we want to admit it or not.

No-one worried too much when Shania Twain bought a property which is bigger than all the Crafar Farms put together.

Or no one minded when this deal went through... http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/4326929/Harvard-University-fund-buys-Otago-farms

oneofsix

31st January 2012, 07:03

Or no one minded when this deal went through... http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/4326929/Harvard-University-fund-buys-Otago-farms

What you guys really mean is the media didn't beat it up or you didn't get upset with the people who did want. There was quite a bit of complain when Shania bought high country and some special conditions were slipped on her but of course there was also quite a bit of starry eyed :bs: as well.
I don't agree with selling off our country to fucktards what don't live here and I don't care who they are or how famous they are. If they don't live here they don't give a shit about those that do so they don't desire to own any of it.

puddytat

31st January 2012, 09:55

The answer to the question whether we can buy land in China is NO.
You can set up a business but a company can not own the land it sits on. Very few if any Chinese own land, the "people" do. But in saying that, in many lands where they have always lived under the village model where they has always been a village there, the land has no title issued which makes it easier in todays climate to simply uproot the village when said communal lands are required by the State & or private companies ....has happened & is happening still all through out China & India....no title, no rights to it.

oldrider

31st January 2012, 09:59

If they don't live here they don't give a shit about those that do so they don't desire to own any of it.

Do you know this for a fact? :confused:

puddytat

31st January 2012, 10:00

Or no one minded when this deal went through... http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/4326929/Harvard-University-fund-buys-Otago-farms

Or when in one month "zee Germans" purchased 7500ha of farmland in the mainland

dipshit

31st January 2012, 10:32

Or when in one month "zee Germans" purchased 7500ha of farmland in the mainland

Germans, Americans, etc are white people that look like us white europeans... so all's ok.

Winston001

31st January 2012, 10:52

Germans, Americans, etc are white people that look like us white europeans... so all's ok.

Yeap thats about it. The noise about the Chinese is xenophobia.

Winston001

31st January 2012, 11:18

....the Central Plains Water Scheme ...

Wasnt it not to long ago ,that the Govt. admitted that the money made from asset sales would be going into CPW scheme. So "we" are effectively subsidising private individuals & corporates to milk the country to the tune of mega bucks. Fucking nepotism I reckon.

I didn't like the govt removing ECAN and appointing Commissioners. I suspect they thought ECAN were making irrigation consents too uncertain on a landscape where water increases pasture dramatically. NZ urgently needs more production, here is a province which can provide it, so the govt (wrongly) tried to make things easier by getting rid of the arguing democratically elected councillors.

The Canterbury of today is nothing like when I were a lad - green plains in all directions. It used to be empty stoney acres-to-the-sheep. IMHO the green is not natural and not a good thing. It will not last.

Anyway your point above about a subsidy probably won't be the case. What will happen is the govt will buy a share in Central Plains Water and get dividends into the future.

Has someone been telling porky pies or just received some bad advice? (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/12760150/government-wrong-to-blame-fta-for-crafar-sales/)

Typical politicians smearing reality. David Parker should know better.

The correct position is that if a bid to buy land is approved by the Overseas Investment Office, then the Minister of Lands has to have a bloody good reason to refuse it. Being Chinese isn't one of them.

Furthermore because of the Free Trade Agreement with China we treat China as a favoured nation so if NZ wants to keep its international credibility, the Minister has to have an extremely bloody good reason to refuse such a sale. Same if it were Aussies buying the land under CER.

Of course Parker et al conveniently overlook existing sales to Harvard University. Did we hear any complaint from Labour about that? And tens of thousands of hectares were sold to foreigners under Labour.

Winston001

31st January 2012, 11:36

There was quite a bit of complaint when Shania Twain bought high country and some special conditions were slipped on her but of course there was also quite a bit of starry eyed :bs: as well.

I don't agree with selling off our country to fucktards what don't live here and I don't care who they are or how famous they are. If they don't live here they don't give a shit about those that do so they don't desire to own any of it.

I took a keen interest in the purchase of Mototapu Station by Shania Twain and Mutt Lange because I have a family connection to that land. As I recall there were 18-23 conditions imposed by the OIO including creating a public walking track from Macetown to Wanaka, which has been completed.

On this particular occasion the sale has turned out well for NZ. We all know Shania Twain but the driving force was/is her husband Mutt Lange. They have now separated and I don't know if she owns any of the land these days.

Meanwhile Mutt has also bought Glencoe Station and Mount Soho Station which gives him a vast remote high country farm. The thing is this guy loves the land and is doing what he can to preserve it. He's spent millions on fencing off the high stuff for protection and one of his aims was to return the stations to being run from horseback.

I've talked to people who work for him and he calls them from anywhere in the world checking on how the farm is getting on. Sheep, fodder crops, new tracks, broom and wilding pine control etc.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-times/news/4662201/Mutt-Lange-asked-to-commit-to-pine-cull

His stewardship is quite different to what we imagine rape and pillage foreigners are expected to do.

puddytat

31st January 2012, 11:48

Of course Parker et al conveniently overlook existing sales to Harvard University. Did we hear any complaint from Labour about that? And tens of thousands of hectares were sold to foreigners under Labour.

God, arnt they all a pack of hypocritical two faced tossers :tugger:

And meanwhile negotiations are going on secretly on the Trans Pacific Partnership which will effect generations to come in NZ because they are "commercially sensitive". So we have absolutely no idea of what we are being signed up for & which benefit large corporates who will pay no tax here....

avgas

31st January 2012, 12:30

They should see if any of the debt owing on the farms is lodged with SCF:psst:.........<_<

mashman

31st January 2012, 14:44

Typical politicians smearing reality. David Parker should know better.

The correct position is that if a bid to buy land is approved by the Overseas Investment Office, then the Minister of Lands has to have a bloody good reason to refuse it. Being Chinese isn't one of them.

I agree that it would be xenophobic if they were saying no just because they were Chinese and it would be a serious political error to be seen to be that openly racist. I haven't seen anything that backs that up. If Labour are defending their position because National have misinterpreted supposed Labour trade agreement clauses to justify the sale, then I see it as Labour defending their position and setting National straight. Of course there's an element of smearing in there, they're hardly likely to be constructive in their criticism are they? After all they're politicians.

Brian d marge

1st February 2012, 18:07

I think there is more important things to worry about , like how much your electricity bill will be going up by;

Snip
The Mixed Ownership Model Companies are likely to have improved business performance because they would be subject to the market disciplines that come from being listed," it said.

Stephen

mashman

1st February 2012, 18:33

Pedrostt500

4th March 2012, 12:57

Well here is the start of the New Zealand Corperation, sold to the highest bidder.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/6519680/Heartland-backlash-over-Crafer-farm-fallout

Virago

4th March 2012, 13:03

Crafar Farms.

Been well covered:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/146259-Crafar-Farms

At the end of the day, if they were being sold to some Hollywood celebrity, no-one would give a toss.

Pedrostt500

4th March 2012, 13:15

There is a bit more to it than we were first led to belive, read the whole article, the farms were offered in China and Singapore as individual units But not here in NZ, Shows that we are thought of as Pesants in our own country, by our own Government.

oldrider

4th March 2012, 14:56

Overseas investments and ownership has never phased me because they can't take it away and they are subject to "New Zealand law"!

That notion has taken a few hits recently and I am becoming more and more concerned that NZ law is being circumvented by the power of money and the services of NZ based lawyers!

The laws (instances that I know of) that are being flaunted (beneath the radar) and bi-passed seem to be Employment law!

Their attitude seems to be: Don't worry about the law .... make them an offer they can't refuse and negate all avenues of reprisal by use of confidentiality agreements!

Personally I believe these are instances that should and could be investigated by the OIO for conditions of compliance to their OIO agreement!

Of course I can not dare to identify any specifics but fear not, I do know of enough to make me aware that all is not as it is supposed to be!

The behaviour of the NZ based agents/representatives of the overseas investors act much like the CAPO's of the concentration camps and are IMHO worse than their masters!

My faith in the validity of overseas investment and our governments responsibility and willingness to keep them honest and on track is fast waning! :kick:

SPman

4th March 2012, 15:30

Their attitude seems to be: Don't worry about the law .... make them an offer they can't refuse and negate all avenues of reprisal by use of confidentiality agreements!

Ah - you mean like, Free Trade Agreements......

YellowDog

4th March 2012, 15:39

I don't see $200,000,000 extra money coming into the country as a bad thing.

I don't see a failed enterprise being rescued as a bad thing.

I don't see job security for many as a bad thing.

I don't see the remains of taxable profits going abroad as a bad thing (rather than the Govt funding losses).

Lots of foreign ownership in NZ already. Foreigners soon become Kiwis.

Clockwork

4th March 2012, 16:05

At the end of the day, if they were being sold to some Hollywood celebrity, no-one would give a toss.

I can see a world of difference here.... I'm surprised you can't

Overseas investments and ownership has never phased me because they can't take it away and they are subject to "New Zealand law"!

Not the land.... just the earning power (profits) of that land, in perpetuity.

I don't see $200,000,000 extra money coming into the country as a bad thing.

The money's not coming into the country it goes to cover the arse of the Aussie Bank's bad landing practices as ultimately all the money will simply pad the bottom line of the mortgage holder

I don't see a failed enterprise being rescued as a bad thing. But this could/should be done domestically

I don't see job security for many as a bad thing. Security for who?

I don't see the remains of taxable profits going abroad as a bad thing (rather than the Govt funding losses). Why not? This is money that is deducted from NZ Inc's bottom line.

Lots of foreign ownership in NZ already. Foreigners soon become Kiwis. But this is to be owned by a Foreign business. They aint gonna move here and become Kiwi's

MisterD

4th March 2012, 16:19

just the earning power (profits) of that land, in perpetuity.

Show me a "New Zealand-owned" farm that does not exist with a bloody big mortgage borrowed from overseas. In which case a big chunk of "profits" are still going abroad.

mashman

4th March 2012, 16:43

meh... they will do what they want to do. Remember, Party Vote National, one of the policies is asset sales. Your choice.

YellowDog

4th March 2012, 16:53

I don't see $200,000,000 extra money coming into the country as a bad thing.

The money's not coming into the country it goes to cover the arse of the Aussie Bank's bad landing practices as ultimately all the money will simply pad the bottom line of the mortgage holder

The banks have to be paid, it's still $200,000,000 of extra money

I don't see a failed enterprise being rescued as a bad thing. But this could/should be done domestically

But you'd need to find $200,000,000 of extra money

I don't see job security for many as a bad thing. Security for who?

Those who work on the farms and all of the associated businesses who thrive when a successful working farm is there to be their customer - Plus their employees and families............. MANY WOULD GAIN JOB SECURITY

I don't see the remains of taxable profits going abroad as a bad thing (rather than the Govt funding losses). Why not? This is money that is deducted from NZ Inc's bottom line.

No it's not, it's earning tax revenue for the country

Lots of foreign ownership in NZ already. Foreigners soon become Kiwis. But this is to be owned by a Foreign business. They aint gonna move here and become Kiwi's

The majority of NZ business is foreign owned. IMO - This would be a good deal for NZ

HenryDorsetCase

4th March 2012, 17:30

The majority of NZ business is foreign owned.

O RLY? got some stats to back that up?

Zedder

4th March 2012, 18:11

I can see a world of difference here.... I'm surprised you can't

Not the land.... just the earning power (profits) of that land, in perpetuity.

I agree, the selling of New Zealand land, companies or state assets is not good and needs to stop.

The short sighted government hasn't learned the lesson from selling state assets to foreigners back in the 1980s. If they had kept them in New Zealand hands and had them run by skilled NZ managers the nation would probably be laughing all the way to the bank now.

Also, can we buy Chinese land or companies? Like hell we can!

Oblivion

4th March 2012, 19:49

I personally think that the sale shouldn't go ahead. But, my guess is that it will anyway, because of the political motivation to get money into the country by selling off as many assets without thinking of the long term options.

If they are going to sell it, I'd prefer a lease type thing instead. You can use it as you own it, but, The ownership of the land is still in the hand of New Zealand. But thats just me.

Winston001

4th March 2012, 21:33

If they had kept them in New Zealand hands and had them run by skilled NZ managers the nation would probably be laughing all the way to the bank now.

Skilled NZ managers eh?

Like those in Feltex (liquidated), The Warehouse (buying Clints Crazy Bargains and Silly Solly), Telecom (more Aussie wrecks - AAPT), Brierly Investments, Robert Jones Investments (buying in Wall Street FTW), Air New Zealand buying Ansett, Apple Fields etcetera etbloodycetra...

Just a simple non-govt example: Telecom was trading at $8.20 in 1999. Now thirteen years later Telecom trades at....$2.60. Yeah! Thats gotta be a winner. Our biggest company is worth 1/4 of what it used to be.

New Zealand is littered with broken companies where managers thought they could take on the Aussies - never mind the rest of the world.

The premise that New Zealand government departments would have continued on after 1988 and risen up to world business standing is risible.

Clockwork

5th March 2012, 07:29

Show me a "New Zealand-owned" farm that does not exist with a bloody big mortgage borrowed from overseas. In which case a big chunk of "profits" are still going abroad.

In perpetuity?

Clockwork

5th March 2012, 07:38

No it's not, it's earning tax revenue for the country

A working farm will be paying taxes to the NZ Government whoever owns it. But if Foreigners own it their profits will be repatriated.

If an Aussie owned Bank takes a bath and loses money on the mortgagee sale then that's a hit on their bottom line which means their profit is reduced and again, because it's foreign owned that's less money leaving NZ's economy. Seems like a win/win for NZ to me!!

MSTRS

5th March 2012, 08:03

Buy the businesses and anything else but not the bloody land. lease it to them but don't give up the royalty.

Could New Zealanders buy land in China? And not something in the middle of the desert somewhere, but prime farm land?
When China was 'in a bit of a pickle', did it sell Hong Kong to the British? Did it, hell...

I see that the company to run the farms, alongside Landcorp, is called "Milk New Zealand".
Is that a company name, or a statement of intent?

Actually, that is scary,

Zedder

5th March 2012, 08:22

Skilled NZ managers eh?

Like those in Feltex (liquidated), The Warehouse (buying Clints Crazy Bargains and Silly Solly), Telecom (more Aussie wrecks - AAPT), Brierly Investments, Robert Jones Investments (buying in Wall Street FTW), Apple Fields etcetera etbloodycetra...

Just a simple non-govt example: Telecom was trading at $8.20 in 1999. Now thirteen years later Telecom trades at....$2.60. Yeah! Thats gotta be a winner. Our biggest company is worth 1/4 of what it used to be.

New Zealand is littered with broken companies where managers thought they could take on the Aussies - never mind the rest of the world.

The premise that New Zealand government departments would have continued on after 1988 and risen up to world business standing is risible.

Lets see, Telecom, "Just a simple non-govt example" being worth 1/4 of what is was. So, it sounds like it's done worse under foreign ownership and not being run by a NZ manager to me. As for the others like the Warehouse (Losers, only $76 million profit for 2011) Robert Jones Investments (A sad state, only worth $1 billion) Brierly (Well it's a joke, profits posted in the millions year after year). Etcbloodyetc....

avgas

5th March 2012, 08:22

An excellent and pertinent question. I don't know the answer but bear in mind China is a communist country. The land belongs to the government. Foreigners can buy houses and apartments but rural land? Doubt it.
I can answer this.
No.
I am currently stuck with a dilemma where my in-laws have 3 properties in Shanghai, China. But they have to be in an aunties name due to my in-laws no longer being Chinese citizens (they in US). Very frustrating for me as I am hoping to make the big one into a holiday home (its bigger than my NZ house!!).
Foreigners can not buy chinese land. Even companies can't. Why do you think its "San-Liu" not Fonterra running things for fonterra over there?
As far as I know the only foreign owned chinese land over there is the concessions (English, French and American).

If anyone is interested I can dig up the links again.......but essentially the answer is no.

MisterD

5th March 2012, 17:02

In perpetuity?

Pretty much. Whether or not the nominal "owners" are NZers or not, at the moment any money to invest and grow the business is coming from overseas. Plenty of those farms with big mortgages have been in the same family for several generations.

I agree that it's not really fair that companies such as the one hoping to be allowed to buy these farms has access to cheaper capital than a local company could get hold of, but the level of xenophobia around this case is bloody embarrassing. I really wonder how all those 5th generation NZ Chinese are feeling...it's like the bad old days of the gold rush.

Clockwork

5th March 2012, 17:34

Actually I'm most motivated by being pro NZ but since you bring it up. Yes, I have serious misgivings about NZ's dealing with China.

Apart from the massive imbalance between our economies (can't really be avoided when your economy is as small as ours) They are not a nation that plays by anyones rules but their own and we simply can't afford to fight them if they decide to fuck us over. They certainly won't reciprocate in terms of foreign ownership of their resources or businesses. I doubt the'd give a flying fuck about any World Court or WTO rulings that they disagreed with and just look at the regimes they are prepared to support. I assume you've seen their high regard for other countries intelectual property rights. That sort of thing may have been forgivable when China was viewed as poor nation but that just isn't the case any more.

I seriously doubt that culturally we even see the world with any level of compatibility. Politically they are very callous and hold both human life and the environment well below their economic objectives. We couldn't even appeal for popular support among their population, even assuming we could get it, it's not like their government gives a flying fuck what their population thinks!

IMO the so called "Free Trade Agreement" we signed with China was a serious cock-up and I don't understand why any NZ worker would hope to be able to compete with China and still maintain our standard of living.

SPman

5th March 2012, 19:50

IMO the so called "Free Trade Agreement" we signed with China was a serious cock-up and I don't understand why any NZ worker would hope to be able to compete with China and still maintain our standard of living.

Any "Free Trade Agreement" NZ enters into turns out to be a serious cock-up - normally it's all one way - free for them and suck it up NZ! The proposed NZ-USA agreement (so beneficial it's being done in secret) will be a similar disaster!

Clockwork

6th March 2012, 07:49

Any "Free Trade Agreement" NZ enters into turns out to be a serious cock-up - normally it's all one way - free for them and suck it up NZ! The proposed NZ-USA agreement (so beneficial it's being done in secret) will be a similar disaster!

I'd have to agree, for many of the same reasons I applied to China.

TBH I think when your economy is as small as ours, all free trade agreements a detrimental to it, the "free" market will always favour the big money. The only justification I can see for them at all is that we've already dropped our pants, so to speak, as an example to others, now we're desperately searching for partners to join us.

I don't know if this is simply down to a slavish determination to prove an economic model that no one else seems to believe in or just plain laziness on the part of our Government because its just too much trouble to hunt down and negotiate trade deals on an other basis. I mean, surely this is just what a small economy as ours needs from its Government. Strategic planning looking for gaps in any market and encouraging the nations businesses to try to fill them.

You wouldn't open a small goods store next to a Warehouse and expect it to be able compete on a "level playing field". Why does our Government not view our economy in the same way?

Zedder

6th March 2012, 08:07

I'd have to agree, for many of the same reasons I applied to China.

TBH I think when your economy is as small as ours, all free trade agreements a detrimental to it, the "free" market will always favour the big money. The only justification I can see for them at all is that we've already dropped our pants, so to speak, as an example to others, now we're desperately searching for partners to join us.

I don't know if this is simply down to a slavish determination to prove an economic model that no one else seems to believe in or just plain laziness on the part of our Government because its just too much trouble to hunt down and negotiate trade deals on an other basis. I mean, surely this is just what a small economy as ours needs from its Government. Strategic planning looking for gaps in any market and encouraging the nations businesses to try to fill them.

You wouldn't open a small goods store next to a Warehouse and expect it to be able compete on a "level playing field". Why does our Government not view our economy in the same way?

We're probably just victims of the strategic planning carried out by the USA and China.

mashman

6th March 2012, 10:46

We're probably just victims of the strategic planning carried out by the USA and China.

would we not be considered participants as we vote for our democracy? :shifty:

oneofsix

6th March 2012, 10:48

would we not be considered participants as we vote for our democracy? :shifty:

Depends, when you vote do you feel you have been well and truthfully informed by those standing for election?

Zedder

6th March 2012, 11:32

would we not be considered participants as we vote for our democracy? :shifty:

Only if there's a binding referendum involved. How often do governments pass laws, make policy etc without public support?

The USA are masters at "strategic" persuasion. A good example is the Atlantic Treaty of 1941 where they implemented free trade and economic policy for the post war era even before they entered the conflict.

mashman

6th March 2012, 18:51

Depends, when you vote do you feel you have been well and truthfully informed by those standing for election?

They did say that they would be selling assets. I have no doubt that our consternation has been noted and was probably expected.

Only if there's a binding referendum involved. How often do governments pass laws, make policy etc without public support?

The USA are masters at "strategic" persuasion. A good example is the Atlantic Treaty of 1941 where they implemented free trade and economic policy for the post war era even before they entered the conflict.

They know best :).

They know best :).

SPman

7th March 2012, 19:31

Strategic planning looking for gaps in any market and encouraging the nations businesses to try to fill them.

You wouldn't open a small goods store next to a Warehouse and expect it to be able compete on a "level playing field". Why does our Government not view our economy in the same way?
Because most of them are as thick as 5 very thick planks! Key doesn't give a shit - he's leaving one way or another by next election, so he'll push through what's expected of him and retire to a nice cosy sinecure, probably in Hawaii........

puddytat

18th March 2012, 10:41

China sends warning.....I send:finger:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/6587053/China-sends-warning-over-Crafar-farm-saga#share

Citizens, the warnings are beginning.
We dont need to sell nothing, we if anything should just lease the land.
We just need to be patient & the hungrier they get.....the more we can make.
The whole world wishes they were us, under populated & over resourced. Kia Kaha Bros.....

The comments are interesting too....

mashman

19th March 2012, 20:15

wonder where the farms are going? (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/13202950/farm-sales-jump-considerably/)

mashman

22nd April 2012, 09:20

It's back on and what's more "Crafar farms sale sends important message overseas" (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/13490693/crafar-farms-sale-sends-important-message-overseas/)...

"Jean-Pierre de Raad at the Institute for Economic Research says New Zealand relies on money coming in from abroad.

"The OECD has been telling us that we're one of the few countries that is raising its barriers, when in fact we are dependent on overseas investment for economic development, ideas, innovation. It's very important for economic growth.""

New Zealand is reliant on the rest of the world to keep it from Greecedom. Wonder what will happen when the loans are called in?
New Zealand can't generate ideas or innovate because it doesn't have the budget to do so.

I call bullshit, but what the fuck would I know... other than we're being lied too.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/58/NZ_Govt_debt_1990-2011.svg/506px-NZ_Govt_debt_1990-2011.svg.png

puddytat

22nd April 2012, 10:44

Pretty daming graph aint it....& we cant blame Labour for it.
Why cant we put a spin on ourselves & country saying "Youll need us one day more than we need you"....

Oblivion

22nd April 2012, 17:46

New Zealanders want a quick fix to the economic problem. Vote in someone who promises alot and does not live up to expectations. Vote him in for second term. If we found someone who has a good amount of ideas, and is not a complete asshole, but ideas will put the country in a pickle for a year or two until the debt can be paid off. Always made the hard decisions. Would get voted out within a term.

Logic. :weird:

When the Crafar farms came up for sale, and the Chinese company placed a bid on it, we'd already dug ourselves ahole that we couldn't get out of.
If we had said to them at the start, we are not comfortable selling this amount of land, would you consider a lease at a lesser price, We could of had something that both the NZ public and the chinese firm could have agreed on. Maybe

avgas

22nd April 2012, 17:53

New Zealanders want a quick fix to the economic problem. Vote in someone who promises alot and does not live up to expectations. Vote him in for second term. If we found someone who has a good amount of ideas, and is not a complete asshole, but ideas will put the country in a pickle for a year or two until the debt can be paid off. Always made the hard decisions. Would get voted out within a term.

Logic. :weird:
I think it was not who people wanted to vote in, it was who they wanted voted out.
Its been mentioned (by others) before in other threads but the democracy system in NZ is broken.

Who would you pick between Stalin and Hitler?

mashman

22nd April 2012, 17:56

Who would you pick between Stalin and Hitler?

Can we have both?

oldrider

22nd April 2012, 18:19

I think it was not who people wanted to vote in, it was who they wanted voted out.
Its been mentioned (by others) before in other threads but the democracy system in NZ is broken.

Who would you pick between Stalin and Hitler?

Didn't she/he go to the United Nations to continue her work fucking over the rest of the world? :rolleyes:

pete376403

22nd April 2012, 20:44

When China was 'in a bit of a pickle', did it sell Hong Kong to the British? Did it, hell...

Old post and just noticed it but, no China did not sell HK to the British, they leased it for 99 years, which ended in July 1997. The lease was not rolled over and China retook control.

NZ (aka KeyCorp) is in more than just pickle (more like deep shit) but still should not be giving this land away, merely to bail out AUSTRALIAN banks.

Correction HK was taken by British in perpetuity but the New Territories were leased.

Winston001

22nd April 2012, 20:51

Pretty daming graph aint it....& we cant blame Labour for it.

I agree the graph is damning but the previous Labour administration created the liabilities which had to be serviced when the GFC hurt our economy.

The hard answer would have been abandoning Working For Families, closing government departments, raising the pension age, and new higher taxes. No political party would do all of that but we did get increased GST.

The even harder reality is that voters hate tough decisions and won't support them.

Look at the riots in Greece and Spain, nations under the gun with governments trying to reduce expenditure.

short-circuit

23rd April 2012, 07:18

I agree the graph is damning but the previous Labour administration created the liabilities which had to be serviced when the GFC hurt our economy.

The hard answer would have been abandoning Working For Families, closing government departments, raising the pension age, and new higher taxes. No political party would do all of that but we did get increased GST.

No the real answer is meaningful tax reform. A proper truely progressive tax structure. Not thining the tax base by providing cuts to those that don't need it.