Will LAMS kill the 250 bike market?

[Old Steve]

What I probably mean is, "Is a 250 a better bike to learn on, and will people realise that?"

Having done my 6L, 6R and 6 full on a 250, and having done 24,000 km in the process over the last 20 odd months, I feel that the lighter 250 learner bikes are probably the best in terms of handling and manouverability for a newbie. MY Hyosung GV250 works out at about 75 to 80 kW/tonne (20 kW @ 168 kg dry, make that 268 kg with the supposed 100 kg rider on it). Will learners be better served having bikes available with 45 to 50 (or more) kw and dry weights around 180 to 200 kg or so?

[DrunkenMistake]

Short answer, No.

Bikes still need to be restricted to be LAMS approved bikes,
and some people just wont want to go through the effort or some shops will see an opportunity to make some money on it all,
I think that some of the bigger bikes available will go up in price for a few months until people realise the bikes not compliant until said restrictions are in place.

But hey what do I know.

[davereid]

I would be very surprised if LAMS is the end of the 250 market.

I still ride a 50cc moped for practical daily transport, as it suits my needs more than my bigger bikes. My brother has had a full licence for more than 30 years as well, and he chooses to ride a scorpio 200 even though he could choose something else if he wanted.

Small bikes that use a couple of litres of gas per hundy kays, are light to handle and easy on tyres and chains may be even more popular as petrol starts to push the $4 barrier.

[mossy1200]

Question my MT01 at 260 odd kg and 88horsepower(64KW???? thats my best guess sorry)at 1670 cc.Isnt that almost a learner rider power ratio??256145

[neels]

Tis an interesting question, and will be intersesting to see....

I was looking at the list of approved bikes, and the old XJ550 I had was one of them. To be honest, I think my son would come to less grief on that than having to rev his GSXR250 to 9k to make it do anything, learning to use of a bit of torque seems to me to make more sense than getting in the habit of wringing a bikes neck to get any power out of it.

So if I was bike shopping, I'd flag the 250 and get a reasonably light moderately powered 250-600cc bike, and start life in the real world of motorbikes.

[FJRider]

Question my MT01 at 260 odd kg and 88horsepower(64KW???? thats my best guess sorry)at 1670 cc.Isnt that almost a learner rider power ratio??256145

Sheer size and weight (not to mention seat height) would deter the keen learner (apart from the "larger" learner) from getting one ...

As has been stated ... the 250 "market" will still be there ... and I would say a majority of learners will still buy one.

Aftermarket performance equipment sales may improve somewhat too ... (especially on the larger cc LAM's models)

[mossy1200]

Im thinking mid sized mid 70s to mid 80s in good condition are going to see a rise in value.

think idd go gs750e(assuming thats on the list)in cafe racer conversion on a learner licence before buying a 250 if i was starting out under this law.

256146
256147

[GrayWolf]

Having watched the 250 market change in the UK with the introduction of the 125cc learner law. The 250 market did change significantly. First casualties were the high performance 250's, they all but dissapeared overnight.
best guess is that some 250's will remain as a popular commuter, learner or 'hack bike'. I would be surprised if we saw any more high power 250's developed. The 400cc jap import market could be the big boomer for sales.

[FJRider]

Im thinking mid sized mid 70s to mid 80s in good condition are going to see a rise in value.

think idd go gs750e(assuming thats on the list)in cafe racer conversion on a learner licence before buying a 250 if i was starting out under this law.


Be carefull ... in such circumstances ... a dyno test check (at YOUR expense) may be ordered if the bikes available horsepower may be "in question" ...

Even the simple addition of aftermarket exaust/air-filter parts may take the bike OVER the LAM's specifications ...

[GrayWolf]

Question my MT01 at 260 odd kg and 88horsepower(64KW???? thats my best guess sorry)at 1670 cc.Isnt that almost a learner rider power ratio??256145

they almost could be Mossy, the torque produced would be the 'difficult' bit for a learner. I wonder if the 1200 or XR1200 Sporty's would almost make it too?

[mossy1200]

Be carefull ... in such circumstances ... a dyno test check (at YOUR expense) may be ordered if the bikes available horsepower may be "in question" ...

Even the simple addition of aftermarket exaust/air-filter parts may take the bike OVER the LAM's specifications ...

The bottom gs was one i built for under 1k(not road legal but was stock motor with battery and alternator)for extra $600 coulda had cert and lights extra on it.Woulda been more fun than a $1600 250 in my view.no faster extra but i would say these kinda bikes will see a revival in popularity.

[FJRider]

The bottom gs was one i built for under 1k(not road legal but was stock motor with battery and alternator)for extra $600 coulda had cert and lights extra on it.Woulda been more fun than a $1600 250 in my view.no faster extra but i would say these kinda bikes will see a revival in popularity.

Actual horsepower is not the issue ... if a check (at your cost) is asked for ... because it looks more powerful than standard ... is/will be a hassle ...

I see an increase in popularity in the 400cc-500cc twins ...

[davereid]

Be carefull ... in such circumstances ... a dyno test check (at YOUR expense) may be ordered if the bikes available horsepower may be "in question" ...

Even the simple addition of aftermarket exaust/air-filter parts may take the bike OVER the LAM's specifications ...

I can't actually understand the way the NZTA are going about this, except that they follow Oz like lost sheep.

If they say for example the weight limit for something is 3 Tonnes then thats the rule. Take your light diesel vehicle RUC licence for example. They don't publish a list of vehicles that their records say are three tons. They don't write 3T on the label, and they leave it up to the motorist to buy the correct licence for his vehicle, and the police to enforce.

I was surprised that the NZTA choose a power figure measured at the crankshaft, rather than at the wheel. That means they can't measure it. They have to go by the manufacturers supplied data.

NZ has a completely different bike fleet to Oz as we get lots of imports. Even the official NZ importers will snap up unsold stock from another country.

The same bike, in different markets may have different specs etc, so it will be very hard to look at bikes already here and determine if they are the same as the new model, or the one on the aussie list. This is compounded by the NZ habit of 'fiddling" the date of manufacture. Maybe its not so common theses days, but you don't have to go back in time to find a bike made in one year, imported the next, and sold the year after, registered as the year afters model.

The good news is that they intend to put LAMS on the rego label, so if they get it wrong, at least the buyer will have a pretty good defence.

[tigertim20]

What I probably mean is, "Is a 250 a better bike to learn on, and will people realise that?"

Having done my 6L, 6R and 6 full on a 250, and having done 24,000 km in the process over the last 20 odd months, I feel that the lighter 250 learner bikes are probably the best in terms of handling and manouverability for a newbie. MY Hyosung GV250 works out at about 75 to 80 kW/tonne (20 kW @ 168 kg dry, make that 268 kg with the supposed 100 kg rider on it). Will learners be better served having bikes available with 45 to 50 (or more) kw and dry weights around 180 to 200 kg or so?

Make ya fucking mind up, you have asked two totally different questions.
firstly, in regards to the effect on the current 250 prices, yes, I think it will make a difference. A number of bikes on the LAMS list will be far superior to the run of the mill 250's that are currently (legally) available to learners, a better question would be 'to what extent will the LAMS rule affect the 250cc market'.

to answer the second question of 'is a 250 better to learn on' - depends. often I think not. LAMS will give you a few more options of fullsize bikes that are a bit more versatile to learn on. I would rather see a learner on a GT650 doing a dunedin to chch ride than on a GN250, Virago 250 etc etc.

[FJRider]

As usual ... proof of innocence is required ... not of guilt. The burdon of proof of such, is on us ...

[DrunkenMistake]

to answer the second question of 'is a 250 better to learn on' - depends. often I think not. LAMS will give you a few more options of fullsize bikes that are a bit more versatile to learn on. I would rather see a learner on a GT650 doing a dunedin to chch ride than on a GN250, Virago 250 etc etc.

I agree on this part, I have found riding a larger capacity bike more comfortable and alot more of a confident boost on highway riding even just in amongst traffic, When I had my 250, I done a trip to Blenheim and back, With a speedo error.. I made really good time, Bit overtaking was slow and difficult, and riding on a bike that size for that length of time started getting painful 90% of they way through,
Im yet to do a trip of that size on a larger bike, But I done a 300km trip on my 400 and I did get sore wrists but that seems to be common with the VFR's Iv only done a 200km trip in one go on the 650, and both bikes even on the smaller trips have been alot nicer to be on for a long period, made it a much more enjoyable trip, and I guess over taking isnt nessocery and opening the throttle isnt everyones cup of Tea,

Even if those two bikes were restricted as such, they would still be more comfortable and confident building, this is my opinion mind you having done 80% of my bike licenses on a 250cc + bike, Cruisers might be an entirely different story im not sure I have only ridden sports bikes.

[davereid]

As usual ... proof of innocence is required ... not of guilt. The burdon of proof of such, is on us ...

I agree. But if the "experts" at the NZTA have said your EX650 is OK as its on the aussie LAMS list, and its got LAMS written on the licence label, then you will have a pretty good defence. The principle of mens rea will prevail.

[Sable]

I personally am very much looking forward to picking up a cheap RGV250 :3

[riffer]

I personally am very much looking forward to picking up a cheap RGV250 :3

Good luck finding a non thrashed one though.

edit: I take it back. This one's going for $2500. I wonder what they'll go for next summer?

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/sports/auction-443449550.htm

I wonder if the price for these will drop?

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/sports/auction-442960104.htm
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/sports/auction-442375045.htm

[ICE180]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/moto...-443449550.htm

I wonder if the price for these will drop?

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/moto...-442960104.htm
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/moto...-442375045.htm

most learners would shit themself on these

crips I almost would as they are so light and grunty and being a 2T
no engine braking which would throw most people on the frist corner they approch

[GrayWolf]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/moto...-443449550.htm

I wonder if the price for these will drop?

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/moto...-442960104.htm
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/moto...-442375045.htm




most learners would shit themself on these

crips I almost would as they are so light and grunty and being a 2T
no engine braking which would throw most people on the frist corner they approch

Really most bikes these days have far less engine braking than the bikes of yore.. it's the trade off for high revs and performance; lighter reciprocating parts, ultra short stroke etc.
For comparison, try riding a ZX14, or even my ZZR1100, and then ride an original Z1 900, or ride an FJR or XJR and compare it to many modern sprot bikes.... the old style ones have far better engine braking. You soon get used to what is available from an individual bike, its the 'knife edge' performance of sprot bikes that is really the 'dangerous' aspect of ownership in inexperienced hands.

[baffa]

I agree on this part, I have found riding a larger capacity bike more comfortable and alot more of a confident boost on highway riding even just in amongst traffic, When I had my 250, I done a trip to Blenheim and back, With a speedo error.. I made really good time, Bit overtaking was slow and difficult, and riding on a bike that size for that length of time started getting painful 90% of they way through,
Im yet to do a trip of that size on a larger bike, But I done a 300km trip on my 400 and I did get sore wrists but that seems to be common with the VFR's Iv only done a 200km trip in one go on the 650, and both bikes even on the smaller trips have been alot nicer to be on for a long period, made it a much more enjoyable trip, and I guess over taking isnt nessocery and opening the throttle isnt everyones cup of Tea,

Even if those two bikes were restricted as such, they would still be more comfortable and confident building, this is my opinion mind you having done 80% of my bike licenses on a 250cc + bike, Cruisers might be an entirely different story im not sure I have only ridden sports bikes.

I think it more comes down to the bike itself. A small bike that doesnt make any power until 10,000 rpm is going to suck on the open road, but something that has a little torque like a vtwin is fine, Ive done plenty of long rides on a 250vtr and not had an issue.

I do agree though, regardless of how tiring the ride is, it seems more mentally taxing on a smaller bike, you have more to worry about.

[nodrog]

Whens does this lams thing take effect? and is there a link to the approved motorcycles?

the search button is broken.

[sleemanj]

Whens does this lams thing take effect? and is there a link to the approved motorcycles?

the search button is broken.

1st of October

There is no list yet, but the Vicroads list is widely spoken to be a good starting place.
http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/Licences/OtherLicences/MotorcycleLicences/Approvedmotorcyclesfornoviceriders.htm

[MSTRS]

To all those getting excited about GS750s and MT-01s etc...sorry. Somewhere in the waffle from NZTA is an announcement that 660cc will be the upper limit for engine capacity. There may have been talk of exceptions to that for some HDs...883 Sportie for instance.

[GrayWolf]

I agree on this part, I have found riding a larger capacity bike more comfortable and alot more of a confident boost on highway riding even just in amongst traffic, When I had my 250, I done a trip to Blenheim and back, With a speedo error.. I made really good time, Bit overtaking was slow and difficult, and riding on a bike that size for that length of time started getting painful 90% of they way through,
Im yet to do a trip of that size on a larger bike, But I done a 300km trip on my 400 and I did get sore wrists but that seems to be common with the VFR's Iv only done a 200km trip in one go on the 650, and both bikes even on the smaller trips have been alot nicer to be on for a long period, made it a much more enjoyable trip, and I guess over taking isnt nessocery and opening the throttle isnt everyones cup of Tea,

Even if those two bikes were restricted as such, they would still be more comfortable and confident building, this is my opinion mind you having done 80% of my bike licenses on a 250cc + bike, Cruisers might be an entirely different story im not sure I have only ridden sports bikes.

That really comes under the 'horses for courses' heading...
I can think of several 600cc plus machines I would not even want to travel 10km's on by choice. Some 250's are disgustingly small and cramped. Althought the Hyo 250 is a 'big one' it's still a 'crouched riding position'... An older ZZR/GPX 250 are far more upright. I gather also the VT had some difference in riding position? Xelvis etc seem to have a slightly mnore upright position, or is that just an optical illusion?
My ZZR has bar risers, and I would not be happy leaning any further forwards that that. You can alter most bikes riding positions to some degree.

[ducatilover]

If the 250 market dies, I'm going to be a happy man.
If the fun 250s get cheaper, so do the 400s.
I hope.
In my mind I'm going to have a garage full of 90's jap screamers I can beat the shit out of and not get big speeding tickets...

[tigertim20]

If the 250 market dies, I'm going to be a happy man.
If the fun 250s get cheaper, so do the 400s.
I hope.
In my mind I'm going to have a garage full of 90's jap screamers I can beat the shit out of and not get big speeding tickets...

I doubt it, VFR400s will probably go up, theyre a race replica, bigger than the 250s, within the lams (I think)
Will be interesting though. I wonder if it will hurt the 2 stroke market? - I think it will hurt it a bit, the learners arent allowed them, and people will have the attitude of 'why would i drop to a 250' after spending their time on a 650cc bike.

Im praying it drops the fuck outta the smokers, cos Ill buy every last one of the cunts and rape them all till theyre fucked

[DrunkenMistake]

I doubt it, VFR400s will probably go up, theyre a race replica, bigger than the 250s, within the lams (I think)
Will be interesting though. I wonder if it will hurt the 2 stroke market? - I think it will hurt it a bit, the learners arent allowed them, and people will have the attitude of 'why would i drop to a 250' after spending their time on a 650cc bike.

Im praying it drops the fuck outta the smokers, cos Ill buy every last one of the cunts and rape them all till theyre fucked

VFR 400's well the NC30 for sure isnt within Lams the RVF is though one must be lighter than the other or something along those lines

[neels]

I'd be keen on a cheap RGV250 when the learners are not allowed them, and everyone else is scared of them shitting themselves. Bring it on.

[JimO]

it will probably stop the dealers selling worn out 15 year old 250s for 6k

[SMOKEU]

no engine braking which would throw most people on the frist corner they approch

They still have a bit of engine braking available. It doesn't really matter too much, that's what the front brake is for.

[Tigadee]

Will LAMS affect the prices of all categories of 250cc bikes, i.e. Sports, dirt/dual purpose, cruiser, scooter? Or just mostly bikes such as sports and cruiser?

[Gianz]

it will probably stop the dealers selling worn out 15 year old 250s for 6k

very true!

[Oblivion]

I'd want to get a Vj22 as a nice project bike. Take one with low k's, and fix it up like new. Top & bottom end rebuild, all done in the garage. Then have fun after everything is done :laugh:

[GingerMidget]

Dumb question time, I know a Ducati 400SS falls under LAMS, but does a Monster M400 also? I want one of those!

[carburator]

LAM's in aussie has a list but also a defined power to wieght ratio and if you can prove
from the manufactors data that it falls inside the limit your away laughing
( its a drawn out process )

I don't think it will kill the second hand market, I think you will see less
bike shops stocking them though..
or the trade in value will be less again?

[sil3nt]

VFR 400's well the NC30 for sure isnt within Lams the RVF is though one must be lighter than the other or something along those linesRVF 'officially' had 53hp whereas the VFR had 59. The RVF only just squeezes in and the VFR is only just pushed out (couple of kg heavier and it would be no problem).

[Blackflagged]

Dumb question time, I know a Ducati 400SS falls under LAMS, but does a Monster M400 also? I want one of those!


It would do yes.Actually it`s on the Oz Lam`s List, as is the M600.
Anybody from Australia? Whats a 659 Monster?
Dyslectic Ozy lambs maybe?

[GingerMidget]

From memory, 659 is AU specific, and restricted from factory to suit them.

Woot for the 400! Best I start really saving huh

[ducatilover]

I doubt it, VFR400s will probably go up, theyre a race replica, bigger than the 250s, within the lams (I think)
Will be interesting though. I wonder if it will hurt the 2 stroke market? - I think it will hurt it a bit, the learners arent allowed them, and people will have the attitude of 'why would i drop to a 250' after spending their time on a 650cc bike.

Im praying it drops the fuck outta the smokers, cos Ill buy every last one of the cunts and rape them all till theyre fucked
The VFR/RVF I think will hold value, they're cult bikes.
CBR/FZR/ZXR400s are already worth fuck all and hopefully they drop, because I'll buy a few

[mossy1200]

I like it.

Options for tall people i was so cramped at 6.4 on a rg250f when i had learner licence.
People getting into riding are currently getting stung with inflated 250 prices.Lets face it cbr250 singles????Hondas next move.That stinks of make a cheap bike for a learner market and rip them off.Top speed 130kph.LEMON!!!!bet they are 7grand to buy.
I like the fact that this will encourage the restoration of some cool old 600s and some bobber projects.Im going to start building up a old banger project cause I know I can sell it later without making a loss and there will be a market for it.
Good old 600 well mainted nice and safe and now a learner can go to rallies and tours with clubs.Its good for NZ motorcycling.

[sil3nt]

CBR/FZR/ZXR400s are already worth fuck all and hopefully they drop, because I'll buy a fewThe CBRs are actually priced fairly high on trademe. Quite often NC35 pricing.

Would love a track FZR.

[R6_kid]

It's being copied from here in Australia, and there are still plenty of 250's buzzing around. That includes your run of the mill CBR/ZXR/FZR/XYZ 250 RR/RS/SP etc. Not to mention heaps of new 250's too (hyobags, cbr250r's etc). From what I've seen prices are no different to in NZ, but it seems a lot harder to get your hands on a 300cc-650cc 'classic' 70's/80's era bikes, at least they appear cost prohibitive from my point of view.

What it does mean is that people like my father (50+ born again rider) can get straight on something like BMW F650GS (650cc) and get on their way without being made to suffer getting around on a 250cc bike for 18mths+.

[nerrrd]

But if he was in NZ, he would still have to suffer the higher registration costs of owning a bike "likely-to-cause-more-accidents-than-a-250-purely-because-it's-a-650-according-to-ACC."

Don't you love that? I know I do...I doubt that they will adjust the ACC levies to be in sync with the LAMs scheme.

Not that I'm endorsing increased ACC levies on motorcyclists either way...

[mossy1200]

But if he was in NZ, he would still have to suffer the higher registration costs of owning a bike "likely-to-cause-more-accidents-than-a-250-purely-because-it's-a-650-according-to-ACC."

Don't you love that? I know I do...I doubt that they will adjust the ACC levies to be in sync with the LAMs scheme.

Not that I'm endorsing increased ACC levies on motorcyclists either way...

True if anything the levies should become lams and not lams as they now state a aprilia rs is a dangerous bike and some 650s arnt

[ducatilover]

The CBRs are actually priced fairly high on trademe. Quite often NC35 pricing.

Would love a track FZR.
I have a mate who picked up a minter NC29 for $1800 recently, I'd certainly pay that.
The FZR is a hot looking bike, I'd rock one

[jaffaonajappa]

meh- as someone else mentioned.... 'learners' aren't the only people buying small bikes.

Yes, there might be some change in demand for mid size bikes and a drop for demand in small bikes. But hardly think it will kill the 250 market.

Rode around 1,100km's this week. incl a 500km trip on a blardy sport bike. 300km blast on an 1100 sport/tourer. and around 300km on a small under 250 Modern commuter in urban areas. Riding a bigger bike in built-up traffic is painful in comparison to a small bike....and for a tightfisted kiwi with some scottish ancestry (I assume) - is far better value for money.

Ringing the crap out of small bikes, when riding in areas you cannot safely harness a bigger bikes power (due to traffic/loaction etc) = Enjoyable.

[mossy1200]

Ringing the crap out of small bikes, when riding in areas you cannot safely harness a bigger bikes power (due to traffic/loaction etc) = Enjoyable.


Then looks both ways before leaving driveway

[ducatilover]

Riding a bigger bike in built-up traffic is painful in comparison to a small bike....and for a tightfisted kiwi with some scottish ancestry (I assume) - is far better value for money.

Can't say I agree.
My 600 is the perfect bike for what I need, better in traffic than the CB400 was and that was in reality, a brilliant bike. A thousand times nicer on the open road and more stable in the corners.
250s in town? Hmm, personally, I'd like my ZZR600 more. It's not too heavy, comfier, nice position (for me) and bigger brakes. Costs the same as my two 250s' to run too, more or less. :niceone:
A big twin, or super bike with long gearing = not as good. But an older sport touring bike is great in every situation, except the track. (Unless you're a mad fuck like Drew)

[Grant493]

The older sports 250's will hold their price. without considering rider weight (not sure if they actually do this as it would vary quite a bit) the old 4cyllinder bikes (the cbr/zxr/fzr) will all be outside the power to weight limit. however they are included due to only being a 250. they will become the fastest bike you can ride on your learners as the 2 strokes are excluded. the smaller gn 250's and some of those types may be affected by the increase in choice. i certainly wont go to the realms of 650cc cruisers just to say my bike isnt a 250. also the EX650 isnt approved for learners but a limited version the EX650L is. Don't think the 400 sports bikes will cut it either.

[GrayWolf]

The older sports 250's will hold their price. without considering rider weight (not sure if they actually do this as it would vary quite a bit) the old 4cyllinder bikes (the cbr/zxr/fzr) will all be outside the power to weight limit. however they are included due to only being a 250. they will become the fastest bike you can ride on your learners as the 2 strokes are excluded. the smaller gn 250's and some of those types may be affected by the increase in choice. i certainly wont go to the realms of 650cc cruisers just to say my bike isnt a 250. also the EX650 isnt approved for learners but a limited version the EX650L is. Don't think the 400 sports bikes will cut it either.

What it will open up is the DR650, XT660, F650 and 650 savage style bikes, so learners who commute to work will be able to aquire decent machinery to do so. Having owned an old (twin headlight) 660 tenere' they are not a bad machine to ride, even over a few hundred K's distance. if you get past the 'only as fast as a 250' mentality, they are a lot more relaxed to ride and are likely to last a lot longer before being replaced, which surely is not a bad thing as it enables experience on a good sized bike before considering and upgrade?

[tigertim20]

The older sports 250's will hold their price. without considering rider weight (not sure if they actually do this as it would vary quite a bit) the old 4cyllinder bikes (the cbr/zxr/fzr) will all be outside the power to weight limit. however they are included due to only being a 250. they will become the fastest bike you can ride on your learners as the 2 strokes are excluded. the smaller gn 250's and some of those types may be affected by the increase in choice. i certainly wont go to the realms of 650cc cruisers just to say my bike isnt a 250. also the EX650 isnt approved for learners but a limited version the EX650L is. Don't think the 400 sports bikes will cut it either.

Thats debatable, there a few 650 sized bikes around that will fit the requirements, and will totally outgun the little 250 sports bikes.
I guess we will have to wait a couple years for the changes to sink in and see what happens to the market now

[jaffaonajappa]

Can't say I agree.
My 600 is the perfect bike for what I need, better in traffic than the CB400 was and that was in reality, a brilliant bike. A thousand times nicer on the open road and more stable in the corners.
250s in town? Hmm, personally, I'd like my ZZR600 more. It's not too heavy, comfier, nice position (for me) and bigger brakes. Costs the same as my two 250s' to run too, more or less. :niceone:
A big twin, or super bike with long gearing = not as good. But an older sport touring bike is great in every situation, except the track. (Unless you're a mad fuck like Drew)


Ride one of the wee modern bikes and be prepared to be surprised !
Sooo light and easy to ride - effortless almost. Insane brakes (even with skinny wheels) as they are so light. (120kg wet). quicker than 90% of cars at the lights...but yeah boy racers will own you ( oh well :confused: ). And Im sure its cheaper than a mid sized bike. No reeeel HP to speak of, tyres/chains/sprockets last for 3x. And its averaging 46km per litre of Regular gas bwahahaha. A short blast on the motorway each day, holds 110 to 115km/h up long but moderate inclines, and can manage around 135 if the wind is perfect (ROFL !).

But really....Perhaps this isn't everyones cup of char. But there must be a few others around enjoying smaller bikes...so doubt LAMS will completely kill the 250 market.

[ducatilover]

Ride one of the wee modern bikes and be prepared to be surprised !
Sooo light and easy to ride - effortless almost. Insane brakes (even with skinny wheels) as they are so light. (120kg wet). quicker than 90% of cars at the lights...but yeah boy racers will own you ( oh well :confused: ). And Im sure its cheaper than a mid sized bike. No reeeel HP to speak of, tyres/chains/sprockets last for 3x. And its averaging 46km per litre of Regular gas bwahahaha. A short blast on the motorway each day, holds 110 to 115km/h up long but moderate inclines, and can manage around 135 if the wind is perfect (ROFL !).

But really....Perhaps this isn't everyones cup of char. But there must be a few others around enjoying smaller bikes...so doubt LAMS will completely kill the 250 market.
I have ridden the majority of modern 250s, they're poo IMHO.
The only 250 I would really consider buying again would be another VT250 Spada, best all round 250 for me.
I'll take my shitty old 600 any day, as I said, it suits me better. :niceone:

[GrayWolf]

Ride one of the wee modern bikes and be prepared to be surprised !
Sooo light and easy to ride - effortless almost. Insane brakes (even with skinny wheels) as they are so light. (120kg wet). quicker than 90% of cars at the lights...but yeah boy racers will own you ( oh well :confused: ). And Im sure its cheaper than a mid sized bike. No reeeel HP to speak of, tyres/chains/sprockets last for 3x. And its averaging 46km per litre of Regular gas bwahahaha. A short blast on the motorway each day, holds 110 to 115km/h up long but moderate inclines, and can manage around 135 if the wind is perfect (ROFL !).

But really....Perhaps this isn't everyones cup of char. But there must be a few others around enjoying smaller bikes...so doubt LAMS will completely kill the 250 market.


I have ridden the majority of modern 250s, they're poo IMHO.
The only 250 I would really consider buying again would be another VT250 Spada, best all round 250 for me.
I'll take my shitty old 600 any day, as I said, it suits me better. :niceone:

I'd tend to agree the Spada would be a great all rounder, it's also one of the reasons I have always liked the little ZZR/GPX250.
lane splitting on the Zed (ZZR11) was harder than on the FJ12, which was harder that the XTZ660... the MT? is actually as easy to lane split on as the XTZ, it has an almost 'motard' style seating position and is very manouverable through traffic. "hehehe shitloads of low down grunt helps too"

[Hitcher]

I really hope that LAMs kills the 250 bike market, and hard luck for anybody wanting to sell on that overpriced, seriously old, dubiously maintained, grey imported POS 250 they bought to get them through their 6L and 6R licenses. Hopefully now learner riders will be able to access better specced and more reputable models at reasonable prices.

[Tigadee]

I really hope that LAMs kills the 250 bike market, and hard luck for anybody wanting to sell on that overpriced, seriously old, dubiously maintained, grey imported POS 250 they bought to get them through their 6L and 6R licenses.

OK, but please wait till after I've sold my bikes please.... :bleh:

[tigertim20]

I really hope that LAMs kills the 250 bike market, and hard luck for anybody wanting to sell on that overpriced, seriously old, dubiously maintained, grey imported POS 250 they bought to get them through their 6L and 6R licenses. Hopefully now learner riders will be able to access better specced and more reputable models at reasonable prices.

Amen to that!!

[Tigadee]

I would be very surprised if LAMS is the end of the 250 market.

So if the above-250cc bikes become accessible to learner riders, then the price of above-250cc bikes will go up with demand.

But then that means, in terms of market dynamics, the 250cc bikes may not necessarily come down or if they do, not by much as they will suddenly appear affordable compared to any bike more than 250cc which will become expensive?

[Asher]

Anyone willing to speculate to what will happen to those on there learners with prohibited bikes?
I have an rgv and my mate has an nsr.......

[FJRider]

Anyone willing to speculate to what will happen to those on there learners with prohibited bikes?
I have an rgv and my mate has an nsr.......

They're too small for boat anchors ...

[psykonosis]

It will be interesting to see how the 250 market will be affected by LAMS. I think there may be a small decrease in the market but there will still be a number of people wanting to learn to ride on a bike that isn't overly powerful which will keep the 250 market alive. At least there will be a bit more of a variety of bikes for those riders that need/want the extra power. 250 bikes still provide a great learning base for riders to perfect their riding skills. A good foundation for riding could one day be that life saver.

[ducatilover]

there will still be a number of people wanting to learn to ride on a bike that isn't overly powerful which will keep the 250 market alive. At least there will be a bit more of a variety of bikes for those riders that need/want the extra power. The LAMS bikes won't be any faster, all the 2T 250s will eat them

[nzspokes]

The LAMS bikes won't be any faster, all the 2T 250s will eat them

I was surprised to see my GPZ400 wont make it into Lams.

[psykonosis]

The LAMS bikes won't be any faster, all the 2T 250s will eat them

Yes, agreed this is true

[GingerMidget]

Some may remember how excited I was to see the Monster 400 makes it in. Careful consideration, and all that smart stuff, I'm buying a honda. 250cc honda. Why? bcause clearly they did something right when we were only allowed up to 250cc. If thats why we haven't been scraping noobs off the roads, then I'm gonna follow that logic.

Just cos I can, doesn't mean I need to.

[davereid]

Anyone willing to speculate to what will happen to those on there learners with prohibited bikes?
I have an rgv and my mate has an nsr.......

This happened with class 2 licences some years back, and you were able to continue driving your truck after applying for (and of course paying for) an exemption. But any new owner was bound by the new licence rules.

[NordieBoy]

Some may remember how excited I was to see the Monster 400 makes it in. Careful consideration, and all that smart stuff, I'm buying a honda. 250cc honda. Why? bcause clearly they did something right when we were only allowed up to 250cc. If thats why we haven't been scraping noobs off the roads, then I'm gonna follow that logic.

Just cos I can, doesn't mean I need to.

How fast will your 250 Honda go?

My 650 Suzuki won't make 160kph.

[Asher]

Im hoping they will introduce a cool down period or an exemption.

It would be shit if after all my time and money to become legal they take that away and leave my with a bike instantly worth less.

[ducatilover]

I was surprised to see my GPZ400 wont make it into Lams.They're a wee bit quicker than a CBR250 etc in a straight line, the on paper specs are pretty underwhelming though lol

[sil3nt]

Some may remember how excited I was to see the Monster 400 makes it in. Careful consideration, and all that smart stuff, I'm buying a honda. 250cc honda. Why? bcause clearly they did something right when we were only allowed up to 250cc. If thats why we haven't been scraping noobs off the roads, then I'm gonna follow that logic.

Just cos I can, doesn't mean I need to.:facepalm:

There is no logic there.

[GrayWolf]

I was surprised to see my GPZ400 wont make it into Lams.

It's going to be the big singles that will gain a huge part of the learner market, I will bet you'll see shitloads of KR/XT/DR 650's and S40's hitting the road with L plates.

[bingslayer]

well thats just great I have been counting down the days till I get my full so I can get a KTM 525exc SM and now I see it on the Au list. I should have my full around the same date as the law change too. Should have just waited a few months and then I wouldn't have had to buy a Zxr250 which is going to be hard to sell once the LAMS kicks in :doh:

[GingerMidget]

:facepalm:

There is no logic there.

Theres woman logic.

Bingslayer - I wouldn't count your chickens yet. Some people are still going to want a 250 to learn on, simply because the idea of a bigger bike, just because they can, might scare them a little bit. This is why GN125's are selling so well at the moment. Perfect learner bike is the selling point as far as I know.

I've got my heart set on a monster 400. But I'm buying a VTR250 instead. I'd rather learn on a smaller bike, than buy a larger one simply because I can. Thats like learning to drive in an STI instead of a (insert small car here) oh wait.... :clap:

[ducatilover]

Theres woman logic.

Bingslayer - I wouldn't count your chickens yet. Some people are still going to want a 250 to learn on, simply because the idea of a bigger bike, just because they can, might scare them a little bit. This is why GN125's are selling so well at the moment. Perfect learner bike is the selling point as far as I know.

I've got my heart set on a monster 400. But I'm buying a VTR250 instead. I'd rather learn on a smaller bike, than buy a larger one simply because I can. Thats like learning to drive in an STI instead of a (insert small car here) oh wait.... :clap:

The Monster 400 is shit anyway :2thumbsup I do hate Duke Monsters though

[quickbuck]

The Monster 400 is shit anyway :2thumbsup I do hate Duke Monsters though

So; you should change your name to ducatiloverexceptmonsters then??

[ducatilover]

So; you should change your name to ducatiloverexceptmonsters then??
I think that might be a bit over the top... I like!

[Hillbilly]

Even though this is an old thread, there is a certain logic not taken into consideration. You won't trade in a 650! Having owned a GS500F under the NSW LAMS scheme and an XJ600S the 250s are very, very expensive for what they are. It's still nearly 10K for a Honda VTR 250, and 3k cheaper for a Suzuki GS500F. However, that was in Aussie with their wider roads and long straights and 110km/hr speed limit. In reality the flow of traffic on the F3 between Newcastle and Sydney was between 130km/hr and 140km/hr including all those massive 18 wheelers. The maiximum horsepower under the LAMS scheme is 53 horsespower shared by the Honda CB400 Super Four and the Ducati 600SS/600 Monster. Many of the other brands have "underpowered" or restricted variants. After passing your full licence, you take them back to the dealer and get them de-restricted.

Some manufacturers have also woken up to the fact that the LAMS rules are made by beaurocrats that don't ride motorcycles. I mean, this is a direct quote form the LAMS list:


Notes:All motorcycles :-- built before December 1960 are approved,- with electric powered engines are approved,- with an engine capacity under 260ml are approved with the exception of :-
Suzuki RGV250Kawasaki KR250 (KR-1 and KR1s models)Honda NSR250Yamaha TZR250Aprila RS250.New model added since last updateLast updated - 9 February 2012

Notice that they use fluid measurements and NOT displacement. So, many manufacturers aware of their ignorance have begum quoting CURB MASS in their figures as opposed to DRY WEIGHT to get around the power to weight ratios. The Ducati 659 weighs only 165 kg and still it got LAMS approval. There's no mention of the horsepower rating anywhere on the Ducati Australian website. Also, all those bikes listed above are illegal under the LAMS scheme yet perfectly legal here. I don't know how true this is, but I was told that an Aprilia RS250 has 79 horsepower!

[gammaguy]

most learners would shit themself on these

crips I almost would as they are so light and grunty and being a 2T
no engine braking which would throw most people on the frist corner they approch

RGV 250 s were built to keep noobs on four strokes

If ya didnt have the balls they bit you,and had those not worthy rushing to trade them in on a nice GN250

Which was where I came in.....

[gammaguy]

They're too small for boat anchors ...

dam right,far too light and not at all suitable for a boat anchor.

but then theres a nice big fat jap four.......

[Big Dave]

It certainly hasn't killed the new 250 Market in Aus:

http://www.mcnews.com.au/NewsArchives/2012/Sales_Quarter/Sales_2012.htm

[GrayWolf]

RGV 250 s were built to keep noobs on four strokes

If ya didnt have a frontal lobotomy they scared you, and had you rushing to trade them in on a nice GN250

if you had 'balls', they bit ya Which was where I came in.....


there fixed it for ya :msn-wink:

[FJRider]

dam right,far too light and not at all suitable for a boat anchor.

but then theres a nice big fat jap four.......

Yep ... they'll sit under water for years without rusting. Pull them out and they'll start right up. (needs a bit of choke though) :innocent:

[reggie1198]

Actually a 20kw bike with a dry weight of 168kgs would give a kw/tonne of about 107kw/t including the 100kg rider. Which is about the oomph of a standard 2.0l mid size car. Not bad from 250cc

On another note, is the dry weight really 168kg, cause that's 1000cc sports bike dry weights.

Reggie

[DrunkenMistake]

Actually a 20kw bike with a dry weight of 168kgs would give a kw/tonne of about 107kw/t including the 100kg rider. Which is about the oomph of a standard 2.0l mid size car. Not bad from 250cc

On another note, is the dry weight really 168kg, cause that's 1000cc sports bike dry weights.

Reggie


My poor overweight rust bucket is 211kg's dry.
And its a 650.

[Asher]

Actually a 20kw bike with a dry weight of 168kgs would give a kw/tonne of about 107kw/t including the 100kg rider. Which is about the oomph of a standard 2.0l mid size car. Not bad from 250cc

On another note, is the dry weight really 168kg, cause that's 1000cc sports bike dry weights.

Reggie

What bike are you talking about?

[reggie1198]

My 1198s is quoted as 169kg dry, with 170hp (160ish at the rear wheel, with the termi's on)

[DrunkenMistake]

What bike are you talking about?

Pretty sure a late model R1 is around 160 - 170 dry also

[GrayWolf]

20 year old, thrashed to buggery and back sprot 250's are overpriced, due to 'demand' of the uninitiated/unknowing... LAM's will sort THAT out.

[FJRider]

20 year old, thrashed to buggery and back sprot 250's are overpriced, due to 'demand' of the uninitiated/unknowing... LAM's will sort THAT out.

And those with a 500cc "thrashed to buggery and back" bike will want more for the privilage of owning it too ... but it will put a greater range (read choice) of motorcycles available to a learner.

[tigertim20]

Actually a 20kw bike with a dry weight of 168kgs would give a kw/tonne of about 107kw/t including the 100kg rider. Which is about the oomph of a standard 2.0l mid size car. Not bad from 250cc

On another note, is the dry weight really 168kg, cause that's 1000cc sports bike dry weights.

Reggie
fuckall that are actually that light, though some might claim that to be the case, the panigale according to what i read today was 189kg dry. dry figures are a waste though, they trick you into trying to work out a power to weight ratio at an untrue weight.
The bike isnt going to go anywhere, or make any power unless it has fuel and oil in it, so factor that in when it comes to doing the numbers for real world use.

Pretty sure a late model R1 is around 160 - 170 dry also
the lightest R1 is allegedly the 2004 at a claimed 172. Claimed being the operative word, the numbers are often as fudges as claimed power outputs.
after 2004, they increase in weight every year to the current model. add a few kgs to the claimed numbers though.

[ducatilover]

fuckall that are actually that light, though some might claim that to be the case, the panigale according to what i read today was 189kg dry. dry figures are a waste though, they trick you into trying to work out a power to weight ratio at an untrue weight.
The bike isnt going to go anywhere, or make any power unless it has fuel and oil in it, so factor that in when it comes to doing the numbers for real world use.

the lightest R1 is allegedly the 2004 at a claimed 172. Claimed being the operative word, the numbers are often as fudges as claimed power outputs.
after 2004, they increase in weight every year to the current model. add a few kgs to the claimed numbers though.

Yup, dry figures are stupid, some manufacturers take the batteries out to get the figures too! Completely pointless and really don't tell you much.
From memory the '04 R1 tipped the scales around 205-210kg wet, which is a light liter bike in my books.
I've weighed my 600 dry (with a battery) and it was 178 (or thereabouts) I am expecting it to be 185kg dry when finished, so I'd be hoping under 210kg wet (dreams are free)

[Fast Eddie]

how would the average joe go about weighing their bike?

I don't think I should break the bathroom scales by rolling the blade onto one on the front and one on the back..

.. or should I.. :shifty:

[ducatilover]

how would the average joe go about weighing their bike?

I don't think I should break the bathroom scales by rolling the blade onto one on the front and one on the back..

.. or should I.. :shifty:

That's how I did it, the scales didn't break though :laugh:

[sleemanj]

how would the average joe go about weighing their bike?

I don't think I should break the bathroom scales by rolling the blade onto one on the front and one on the back..

.. or should I.. :shifty:

Most bathroom scales will go to like 150kg, so if your bike is less than 300kg total you should be sweet.

If you have a center stand then one under that and one under the front wheel.
If you have a side stand, one under each wheel and one under the stand.

Add all the readings up gives the total weight.

Of course it won't mean anything except to yourself since what is and isn't a LAM is up to the NZTA, on factory data, for factory bikes, and will be printed on your licence (rego) label.

[FJRider]

how would the average joe go about weighing their bike?

I don't think I should break the bathroom scales by rolling the blade onto one on the front and one on the back..

.. or should I.. :shifty:

Google the model bike you have. Most model related sites will give it's dry/wet weight. Also should have "claimed" horsepower.

I gather the claimed horsepower/weight (supplied by manufacturer's) will be used to decide eligiblility for LAM's ..

[mossy1200]

Just got myself a LAMS bike for $101
Better value than a 250

[tigertim20]

how would the average joe go about weighing their bike?

I don't think I should break the bathroom scales by rolling the blade onto one on the front and one on the back..

.. or should I.. :shifty:

use two sets of bathroom scales.
In front of the rear wheel, place a bit of timber, to act as a ramp to roll onto a set of bathroom scales. do the same for the front wheel. Then just roll the bike forwards, and the front and back wheels will roll onto their respective scales at the same time.

add the two together for your weight, plus you can see the static weight distribution, remember though that weight bias changed when youre sitting on it

[ducatilover]

Just got myself a LAMS bike for $101
Better value than a 250
Sweet deal!

use two sets of bathroom scales.
In front of the rear wheel, place a bit of timber, to act as a ramp to roll onto a set of bathroom scales. do the same for the front wheel. Then just roll the bike forwards, and the front and back wheels will roll onto their respective scales at the same time.

add the two together for your weight, plus you can see the static weight distribution, remember though that weight bias changed when youre sitting on it

That's how I did it :yes:

[arrsee]

i know this is a old thread but someone might find it usefull. although it wasnt on the list when i purchased my 86' gpz400 i calculated it should be so took a gamble and applied for an exeption through ltsa, i needed the factory specs which i aquired through kawasaki. and the process took over a month but without a problem my bike was lams aproved and might even now be on the list. who wants to ride a 250 for 18 months?

[Marr0w1]

I had the misfortune of buying my first bike in 2011 before LAMS came out, and 2nd hand 250cc bikes were overpriced because they had the learner niche. I paid far too much for a tidy GT250R, then LAMS was introduced, just as I moved up to a 675. I still haven't sold my old bike because it's just too hard to get a decent price when people can now buy up to 600cc bikes on their L license.

[p.dath]

I had the misfortune of buying my first bike in 2011 before LAMS came out, and 2nd hand 250cc bikes were overpriced because they had the learner niche. I paid far too much for a tidy GT250R, then LAMS was introduced, just as I moved up to a 675. I still haven't sold my old bike because it's just too hard to get a decent price when people can now buy up to 600cc bikes on their L license.

The price of bikes, especially small road bikes, varies with season - less people want to learn to ride in the Winter months.

[Grashopper]

The price of bikes, especially small road bikes, varies with season - less people want to learn to ride in the Winter months.

Which makes me think now is the perfect time to buy a bike :eek:
The beginning of summer would be the time when I'd start trying to sell one.

[Glowerss]

Which makes me think now is the perfect time to buy a bike :eek:
The beginning of summer would be the time when I'd start trying to sell one.

Winter's actually a bad time to be shopping from what i've seen. People think same way as you (nobody buying) and so don't list the bike. The people that do list bikes therefore seemingly price them much higher as theres no competition.

Late summer/fall seemed to be the best time to buy. Prices on most bikes gone up 2-5k since then, and there doesn't seem to much as much out there. A bargain appears every now and again ( Somebody was selling a 750 katana for $3,300 the other day. Shame no full license :no: ) but seems like best time to be buying was like 3-5months ago)

And to the dude with the hyobag, it's just because you've got a hyobag. They depeciated like a stone long before LAMS came in. A full year before LAMS came in year old hyobags with 10k kms on the clock were only worth $4,000. LAMS got nothign to do with it.

[ducatilover]

Errr I've never noticed an increase/decrease in price with seasons, nor have I had trouble selling things due to seasons.

[arcane12]

Which makes me think now is the perfect time to buy a bike :eek:
The beginning of summer would be the time when I'd start trying to sell one.

Of course the big hurdle there is it's hard to stump up with the cash for the new one BEFORE you sell the old...

[Grashopper]

Of course the big hurdle there is it's hard to stump up with the cash for the new one BEFORE you sell the old...
Yeah, not very keen on selling the GN yet. It's pretty fun to ride and as I don't have much experience with other bikes I will keep it and then see what I like more. (Ok, I do know that pretty much everything I have my eye on will probably be better than the GN, but still... lol)

But as I'm aiming for something older anyway and not a new bike, it will hopefully not be too expensive.