My little rant.

[TwoSeven]

Well, some folks will know that health and safety is a sore subject with me. But in regards to another thread thats currently in progress and other threads that have happended for other folks. I'm not commenting directly on any of the incidents because I'm not invovled, but I am involved in the sport - which gives me entitlement to have an opinion.

How many people have to die before you dumb fucks learn about health and saftey. Having read the other thread where someone expressed the same opinion as me, an excuse -actually several - were given, from the classical putting your head in the sand 'you weren't there so dont comment' to the oh - some precautions were taken so it wasnt their fault. I do NOT find excuses of any kind acceptable for people being injured in any manner.

Well at the end of the day, some poor sap can no longer enjoy life simply because either someone didnt think to provide everyone with the correct equipment/training or someone did a 'she'll be right' on it when they knew they didnt have the propper tools, or someone was just plain ignorant.

Having personally observed a growing number similar incidents in this country where 'luckily' people were not so badly injured - but injured all the same, it never ceases to amaze me why people cant learn from it. Its like persistant stupidity is endemic or something.

[Marknz]

Well, some folks will know that health and safety is a sore subject with me. But in regards to another thread thats currently in progress and other threads that have happended for other folks. I'm not commenting directly on any of the incidents because I'm not invovled, but I am involved in the sport - which gives me entitlement to have an opinion.

How many people have to die before you dumb fucks learn about health and saftey. Having read the other thread where someone expressed the same opinion as me, an excuse -actually several - were given, from the classical putting your head in the sand 'you weren't there so dont comment' to the oh - some precautions were taken so it wasnt their fault. I do NOT find excuses of any kind acceptable for people being injured in any manner.

Well at the end of the day, some poor sap can no longer enjoy life simply because either someone didnt think to provide everyone with the correct equipment/training or someone did a 'she'll be right' on it when they knew they didnt have the propper tools, or someone was just plain ignorant.

Having personally observed a growing number similar incidents in this country where 'luckily' people were not so badly injured - but injured all the same, it never ceases to amaze me why people cant learn from it. Its like persistant stupidity is endemic or something.

27,

I was there and I was the red flag marshall standing in the middle of the start finish straight when the major incident happened. I'm a semi - experienced racer, but first time marshall. I am not going to go into any great detail about what did happen and how it came about. All I do have to say is that I have major concerns about how the meeting was run and the safety procedures that were in place, and I will be raising my concerns with VMCC and MNZ.

[Coyote]

Oh shit, what did I miss?

[White trash]

Unfortunately, when an event of this magnitude takes place, there is so much planning and organising that goes into it by so many different parties. Everybody relies on everybody else involved to do their part to the fullest. People will say, "That's motorsport, you takes your chances" however, the racers put alot of faith in the organisers that the meeting will be run as safely as possible.

When a tradgedy like this one occurs, because of the number of people involved, it makes it a nightmare to get to the bottom of the shortcoming, if there was one at all.

This has concerned me for a while, come race day, the organisers are standing up asking for marshals. This is a real worry as you'd hope that an event attracting over 40 entries in one class would be slightly better planned. After the events of today, there's no way I'd put my hand up without some sort of training and a firm knowledge my fellow marshals were as well trained. The risks are too huge.

It certainly makes me wonder if I actually want to race a bike in NZ.

Edit: This is in no way a dig at marshals or race organisers. I am in no position to coment on individual cases or incidents.

[justsomeguy]

OK don't give me the details if you are not comfortable doing so...... but please tell me all KB'ers are safe.....

I hope the others involved are not critical and on the road to recovery.:yes:

[Slim]

OK don't give me the details if you are not comfortable doing so...... but please tell me all KB'ers are safe.....

I hope the others involved are not critical and on the road to recovery.:yes:
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=14631&page=1&pp=20

[TwoSeven]

27,

I was there and I was the red flag marshall standing in the middle of the start finish straight when the major incident happened. I'm a semi - experienced racer, but first time marshall. I am not going to go into any great detail about what did happen and how it came about. All I do have to say is that I have major concerns about how the meeting was run and the safety procedures that were in place, and I will be raising my concerns with VMCC and MNZ.

Thank you for posting - its appreciated.

Although, on a more personal note I hope those (including yourself) receive some emotional counciling over the incident, they are pretty traumatic things to witness.

[FROSTY]

Well, some folks will know that health and safety is a sore subject with me. But in regards to another thread thats currently in progress and other threads that have happended for other folks. I'm not commenting directly on any of the incidents because I'm not invovled, but I am involved in the sport - which gives me entitlement to have an opinion.

How many people have to die before you dumb fucks learn about health and saftey. Having read the other thread where someone expressed the same opinion as me, an excuse -actually several - were given, from the classical putting your head in the sand 'you weren't there so dont comment' to the oh - some precautions were taken so it wasnt their fault. I do NOT find excuses of any kind acceptable for people being injured in any manner.

Well at the end of the day, some poor sap can no longer enjoy life simply because either someone didnt think to provide everyone with the correct equipment/training or someone did a 'she'll be right' on it when they knew they didnt have the propper tools, or someone was just plain ignorant.

Having personally observed a growing number similar incidents in this country where 'luckily' people were not so badly injured - but injured all the same, it never ceases to amaze me why people cant learn from it. Its like persistant stupidity is endemic or something.
You perhaps need to read the thread and comments in a different light.
its not that your comments arent correct or that I disagree with you.
Just that the timing of comments in the thread you are refering to were ill timed,There were several KBers directly involved in many capacities and sensitivity to their feelings having just been involved in a major accident at THIS time I'd suggest is important.

Perhaps you can suggest a way of ensuring a supply of well trained race meeting staff. -No Im not taking the piss -its something that probably every road race club in NZ struggles with
It has been suggested elsewhere that the actual running of race meetings should be farmed out to a professional organisation -they come in with fully trained marshalls/cordinators/lap scorers etc so all the club has to do is organise the race day
No brain surgeon myself But Im offering free track sessions to those offering to be marshalls at the KB track day (marshalling there is a MUCH simpler affair) -perhaps something like that could help
What Im suggesting is rather than stating whats wrong -perhaps you can come up with possible solutions to the issues -again no sarcasm involved

[Brian d marge]

Y
It has been suggested elsewhere that the actual running of race meetings should be farmed out to a professional organisation -they come in with fully trained marshalls/cordinators/lap scorers etc so all the club has to do is organise the race day
No brain surgeon myself But Im offering free track sessions to those offering to be marshalls at the KB track day

Now thats a damn good suggestion , I wonder if thats worth persuing... also regardless of the free track sessions, you are at least trying to influence your social circle and they in turn hopefully will do the same ... damn fine show old chap well done

Stephen
yess may ponder on that for a while ........

[Kickaha]

Well, some folks will know that health and safety is a sore subject with me. But in regards to another thread thats currently in progress and other threads that have happended for other folks. I'm not commenting directly on any of the incidents because I'm not invovled, but I am involved in the sport - which gives me entitlement to have an opinion.

You're personally involved in the sport?, when you consider that I attend evry motorcycle Canterbury meeting and BEARS meeting in the area and beyond and have only seen you at a couple in the last year I would suspect your involvement is SFA and as nothing more than a spectator, I haven't ever seen you on a marshalls post and you haven't been on the comittee in the last 3-4 years at least, so your opinion carries bugger all weight with me


How many people have to die before you dumb fucks learn about health and saftey. Having read the other thread where someone expressed the same opinion as me, an excuse -actually several - were given, from the classical putting your head in the sand 'you weren't there so dont comment' to the oh - some precautions were taken so it wasnt their fault. I do NOT find excuses of any kind acceptable for people being injured in any manner.


Just to enlighten us can you supply statistics on the amount of motorcyle sport related deaths over the last few years,and what caused them, the one I was involved in couldn't have been prevented short of not letting anyone race that particular day

Obviously you're the only person who isn't a "dumb fuck" and you obviously have all the anwsers so why haven't you put them in place? you have a habit of coming up with all the "answers" but it seems you do bugger all about trying to get them implemented, the current procdures in place are more than adequate as long as they are followed and the riders and marshalls are informed of what to do, and this should be covered at riders briefing


Well at the end of the day, some poor sap can no longer enjoy life simply because either someone didnt think to provide everyone with the correct equipment/training or someone did a 'she'll be right' on it when they knew they didnt have the propper tools, or someone was just plain ignorant.

Can you please provide the evidence to back up the claim that " either someone didnt think to provide everyone with the correct equipment/training or someone did a 'she'll be right' on it when they knew they didnt have the propper tools, or someone was just plain ignorant.and not just an opinion gathered by reading a few posts on KB



Having personally observed a growing number similar incidents in this country where 'luckily' people were not so badly injured - but injured all the same, it never ceases to amaze me why people cant learn from it. Its like persistant stupidity is endemic or something.

A growing similar number of incidents? you must attend different meetings than me then at the meetings I attend and race,in the last four years I can only recall one similar incident at a BEARs meeting where riders stopped on the main straight after a red flag being shown and I haven't once seen it at a motorcycling Canterbury meeting or any National round

The other incidents are attended quite quickly and professionally and at most are few and far between at the odd meeting there will be more accidents than some and at others there will be none at all and most are single bike accidents, some involve more than one but if you're going to go wheel to wheel with someone at speed there is little margin for error and "shit happens"

[TwoSeven]

If you read the original post properly, you'll have noted that it wasnt about any particular event (cept'n for para 3), or even road racing in general - its just my observance of the local mindset on health and safety. I posted it in the racing forum because I want people invovled in that sport to raise there awareness of these issues.

Actually the reason I stay away from you is because I think you are dangerous from my observances and I personally dont like you. But thats my personal opinion which until now I have kept to my self and has nothing to do with this thread. :)

From the sport I meant motorcycling in general although if you open your eyes a bit more - i'm often out at the local track - just not around you :)

You can gather your own statistics just by counting the number of 'rider down' posts in this forum, and even read your own posts where you say how many so called incidents' you have witnessed.

I do actually spend a large amount of time 'trying' to get safety stuff implented, both when I see dodgy stuff at the tracks, on the road and by my posts in this forum (my original post here is a classic example of that). But quite often I get some 'dumb fuck' such as your self who is too anal to take what I am saying on board, takes offense to it and shoves their head in the sand. You old chap - are demonstrating the steriotype of the typical type of person I made the original post about. You need to learn to think about what this post is about, not what your personal agenda is - certainly abusing people wont get your far.

The rest of yoru post is just you being a self indulgent anal retentive. :)



A growing similar number of incidents? you must attend different meetings than me then at the meetings I attend and race,in the last four years I can only recall one similar incident at a BEARs meeting...





Last year a similar incident happend at Ruapuna at a BEARS meeeting resulting in some broken bones and thankfully nothing more serious, since then at every riders briefing all riders are instructed "In case of red flag, sit up slow down,look around,signal but do not stop and return to the pits slowly"

Having been involved in a race in earlier this year in which a competitor and friend died I know first hand the effect this can have on people and my sympathy and thoughts are with them

Selective memory is it (although I wouldnt wish anyone to be in that situation - so sorry about that.)

And I will add two incidents at cemetry that I was in attendance of and that I personally witnessed. So that makes 4 in the last 7 months.


I know NZ has funny rules but to put this post back into a motorcycling thread. If any marshal puts up a red flag on a circuit, then all other marshalls should automatically do it. They should either be in sight of all the other marshalls or constant radio contact. There is really no excuse for one person holding up a red and everyone else doing yellows. Yellow does not mean stop racing immediately and leave the track by the first available exit as soon as possible. Yellow (waved or stationary) is an indicator that generally means to riders - go bloomin fast, dont pass and look out for hazards on the track.

When a red flag is up, marshalls at the track exits should be indicating to riders to leave by those exits. They shouldnt allow riders to carry on round the track (unless there is no exit).

I was always tought to use a red flag if there is an 'obstruction' on the track (that includes injurys, or riders having to clear the track, or debris that cant be removed without risking injury), or when there is an accident that places people in a dangerous position (such as people having to go onto the track to give aid). In otherwords, dont allow the race to continue if someone is at risk of getting hurt.

Ok, thats not going to stop the first corner pile up or equivilent situations, but it would certainly help to avoid future potentially serious situations which is the whole point in health and safety.

I dont hold with the argument where someone says its not possible to plan for every thing that could go wrong because they are busy. There are dozens of people planning many similar events in this country and hundreds if not thousands of people around the world doing it - local clubs have been in it for years on end and there is ample opportunity for continuous improvement (some cubs have been in it for decades). For someone to turn round and say it isnt possible after all this time and effort- is really kind of taking the piss.

[MSTRS]

You old chap - are demonstrating the steriotype of the typical type of person I made the original post about. You need to learn to think about what this post is about, not what your personal agenda is - certainly abusing people wont get your far.

The rest of yoru post is just you being a self indulgent anal retentive. :)




For someone to turn round and say it isnt possible after all this time and effort- is really kind of taking the piss.
Pots and kettles. I can't believe I was reading this crap.

[Sensei]

Been working in the Petrol Chemical Industry for over 25y's We have so many Course's to learn for safety Etc . Stand back 5X5 / SARS / WHER / even with all these in place there are still Permits Hazard ID's the list goes on & you haven't even started the Job . My Point is even when you go to this length to make sure that nothing go's wrong . There are things that you just cann't control as with the Terrible Events of yesterday . It's easy to stand back after shit has hit the fan & point fingers & say this should have been done etc . We try to do what is the best ! And can only learn from these things , no one get's enjoyment passing the blame .

[speedpro]

I'm with Kickaha.

For a few years I was involved in the whole lot, organiser, lunch getter, bale puter-outerer, flag wavy person, lap scorer, clerk of course, steward, person people moaned at, you name it. Shit happens and there isn't always anything anyone can do about it. A greater knowledge of MNZ rules would be an advantage in these discussions, for example - how many red flags are permitted (2seven) and who has authority to get them waved.

Rider reaction to a red flag has pretty well always been a problem, not helped by those giving the briefings getting it wrong sometimes. Plus there is the problem where in a racing situation the red flag may not be visible to all riders, hence the official action to be taken when a red flag is shown.

Wanganui is always going to be a problem, it's the nature of the circuit, especially through the esses in the cemetary. I don't think that Wanganui would get a permit if it was to be proposed as a NEW circuit nowadays. Having said that I loved to race there.

It also seems to me that riders in certain classes are involved in these type of accidents more. The scariest class for me was always "clubmans" at Wanganui (on my bucket). I always put this down to a lack of experiance on the part of the participants. It was always more fun against the F3 guys but even there it was obvious that some riders lacked experiance.

[yungatart]

The rest of yoru post is just you being a self indulgent anal retentive. :)
And you are not? My opinion is that at this time you should keep your OPINIONS to yourself. How dare you sit there fingerpointing and making noises after what some of these people went through yesterday ( and are still going through) . What gives you the right to do that, trampling all over others feelings. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[MSTRS]

And you are not? My opinion is that at this time you should keep your OPINIONS to yourself. How dare you sit there fingerpointing and making noises after what some of these people went through yesterday ( and are still going through) . What gives you the right to do that, trampling all over others feelings. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Well said. Glad you are not my mother!

[TwoSeven]

two seven --all fine and wonderfull being a critique. A lot of people seem exceptionally good at just that. What are YOU doing to prevent this happening???
Have you joined a club??
Have you started rider training courses?
Have you run a basic mechanical training course or perhaps a first aid course.
An old phrase comes to mind -If you aren't part of the soluyion then you are part of the problem

1) Yes - on and off.

2) Yes (although its more along the lines of I'll show you somethings you can practice). I'm currently trying to figure out a way of getting an english instructors license. I was half way thru going about it when I left the UK.

3) No - i'm not a mechanic, but I do help when I can (usually tires/suspension) and although not a trained medical instructor - I do have the odd cert. hanging around from previous jobs where its been required and have extensive practice is scraping up whats left of poor sap bikers who found their posing didnt work the hard way (hence my concern about folks that end up receiving the rough end of a shafting).

Dude - read the first post. This thread was intended to encourage people to take their heads out of their asses and continue to WORK AT thinking about health and saftey. I - to be honest - have never seen a post from you about how to do that for people on the track (while i've been a member of this forum) - but I have seen some other good posts you've made.

So while you may find it easier to bash me for sayng I think kiwis need to buck their ideas up - perhaps YOU could set an example by makeing a few posts on how they could do this.

[FROSTY]

My involvement in the sport is not an issue
However you have had a rant -as I previously posted why not step up to the plate and offer practical solutions

[Marknz]

This is fast turning into a "my dick is bigger than your dick contest"

I know I didn't start this thread, but how about you two discuss this by PM or email?

[TwoSeven]

Not really - someone just missed the point of the original post and seems to want to spout on about how great he is. He hasnt quite realised that lots of people do lots of things in their own way - instead he gives the impression that if they dont devote all their time to doing things to his standards they are obviously not good enough.

Sooner or later it will dawn on him that the thread was about encouraging people to spend time thinking about ways and means of teaching people about health and safety - not ego bashing which I think he and a few others seem more concerned at. They do say 'tall poppy syndrome' is endemic here - seems to me a pretty good demo of it.

Shame, that people have to get injured while others boost their own egos.

[marty]

I know I didn't start this thread, but how about you two discuss this by PM or email?


no don't - this is fun!

[Kickaha]

If you read the original post properly, you'll have noted that it wasnt about any particular event (cept'n for para 3), or even road racing in general - its just my observance of the local mindset on health and safety. I posted it in the racing forum because I want people invovled in that sport to raise there awareness of these issues.

The people who are involved in the sport are aware of the issues and always will be, some choose to become more involved than others and the accident that happened will make all clubs recheck their procedures and no doubt other procedures will be put in place to prevent a reoccurance of this incident, unfortunate as it may be sometimes it take a disaster to change peoples mindset or realise there may be a contingency they haven't planned for


Actually the reason I stay away from you is because I think you are dangerous from my observances and I personally dont like you. But thats my personal opinion which until now I have kept to my self and has nothing to do with this thread. :)

So i'm dangerous from your observances? from someone with such an interest on health and safety then why haven't you had a word with me about my conduct or to the relevant officials? I'd be quite interested in why you consider me dangerous as I'm always looking to improve, as for not liking me I'm fucking heartbroken :rofl:


From the sport I meant motorcycling in general although if you open your eyes a bit more - i'm often out at the local track - just not around you :)

I actually have a good memory for faces and stand by what I said about the amount of events you attend as I spend a large part of my time wandering around the pits and associated areas:yes:


I do actually spend a large amount of time 'trying' to get safety stuff implented, both when I see dodgy stuff at the tracks, on the road and by my posts in this forum (my original post here is a classic example of that). But quite often I get some 'dumb fuck' such as your self who is too anal to take what I am saying on board, takes offense to it and shoves their head in the sand. You old chap - are demonstrating the steriotype of the typical type of person I made the original post about. You need to learn to think about what this post is about, not what your personal agenda is - certainly abusing people wont get your far.

Perhaps you can point out where I'm abusing people? I'm not the one calling people "dumb fucks" or telling them they're "anal" because they don't agree with me nor am I the one "pushing any personal agenda"

I've yet to see any evidence of you spending large amounts of time trying to get safety stuff implemented, although I'm quite willing to pass your name on to the current committee so you can pass on your experience in health and safety matters, I have put considerable thought in to what the post is about and while you raise some valid points I can't see that you've done much to put in place mechanisims to fix the percieved problems


The rest of your post is just you being a self indulgent anal retentive. :)

And yours isn't?



Selective memory is it (although I wouldnt wish anyone to be in that situation - so sorry about that.)

And I will add two incidents at cemetry that I was in attendance of and that I personally witnessed. So that makes 4 in the last 7 months

You're talking fatalitys? in the last seven months? I think you might have got that wrong,the incident I was involved in had nothing to do with the way the event was run or the procedures in place


I know NZ has funny rules but to put this post back into a motorcycling thread. If any marshal puts up a red flag on a circuit, then all other marshalls should automatically do it. They should either be in sight of all the other marshalls or constant radio contact. There is really no excuse for one person holding up a red and everyone else doing yellows. Yellow does not mean stop racing immediately and leave the track by the first available exit as soon as possible. Yellow (waved or stationary) is an indicator that generally means to riders - go bloomin fast, dont pass and look out for hazards on the track.

When a red flag is up, marshalls at the track exits should be indicating to riders to leave by those exits. They shouldnt allow riders to carry on round the track (unless there is no exit).

I was always tought to use a red flag if there is an 'obstruction' on the track (that includes injurys, or riders having to clear the track, or debris that cant be removed without risking injury), or when there is an accident that places people in a dangerous position (such as people having to go onto the track to give aid). In otherwords, dont allow the race to continue if someone is at risk of getting hurt.

Ok, thats not going to stop the first corner pile up or equivilent situations, but it would certainly help to avoid future potentially serious situations which is the whole point in health and safety.

Tell us what the funny rules are and if it makes sense we'll get them changed, perhaps it is time some of our rules were examined and updated as the way you were taught to use a red flag makes more sense than having everyone come to a halt, as the current rule states "when the red flag has been displayed riders must immediately stop racing and return to the gird"
it would make more sense to have them return to the dummy grid so the track is clear


I dont hold with the argument where someone says its not possible to plan for every thing that could go wrong because they are busy. There are dozens of people planning many similar events in this country and hundreds if not thousands of people around the world doing it - local clubs have been in it for years on end and there is ample opportunity for continuous improvement (some cubs have been in it for decades). For someone to turn round and say it isnt possible after all this time and effort- is really kind of taking the piss.

I don't think I said at any time it wasn't possible, but as with anything time money and available personel will come into it how effective any safety program will be and how effectively it is implemented and a lot of clubs are stretched trying to get enough people to help them out now, feel free to continue the personal abuse to try and get your point across though

[White trash]

Hey Kick', you're not dangerous, you're fuckin' Dangerous.... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:







Fuck I'm funny

[k14]

Hey Kick', you're not dangerous, you're fuckin' Dangerous.... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I got to agree with you there, yesterday down at levels i was fearing for my life when he passed me, thats why i let him win, was too scared at what he would do to stop me winning :rofl:

[Kickaha]

Hey Kick', you're not dangerous, you're fuckin' Dangerous.... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Fuck I'm funny

nah you've got me confused with someone else perhaps some other GSXR1000 riding homo as that seems to be Dangerous current bike of choice :motu:

[Kickaha]

I got to agree with you there, yesterday down at levels i was fearing for my life when he passed me, thats why i let him win, was too scared at what he would do to stop me winning :rofl:

What like run you off the track like that other guy did? good story but more likely your own incompetence :rofl:

[White trash]

I got to agree with you there, yesterday down at levels i was fearing for my life when he passed me, thats why i let him win, was too scared at what he would do to stop me winning :rofl:

Think you might wanna re-read my post young fellah.........