Why it's important not to have other road users lift their game

[shrub]

A common complaint here is that other road users are dickheads and put us in danger. I agree 100%, and some of the driving I see is bizarre, but I don't agree with the bit that usually follows: that they (other road users) need to lift their game.

My rationale behind this is that 95% of road users are pretty good overall, and it is possible (and even easy) to travel on Her Majesty's highways in safety - I rode just over 11,000 kms last year, many of them in town, and I had zero accidents - that's a pretty typical year for me, and every crash I have ever had was primarily caused by the fat bald cunt behind this keyboard (only I was neither fat nor bald when I caused those crashes). I'm an average rider on a good day, so it's not my expertise that has kept me alive, which means the general driving skill of other road users is plenty good enough for most of us to stay alive on the roads.

But what's wrong with getting everyone to lift their game? Surely that would make the roads safer? Yeah, logically it would, but the reason I am still around irritating people is because when I get on my bike I know that there are 5% of the people on the road who drive like retards and don't stop at red lights, tail gate, don't look, don't indicate, get pissed etc. Some of them are men, some women, they're all ages, drive all kinds of vehicles (including bikes) and are everywhere and anywhere at any time of the day or night. I have no idea who they are or when they are going to enter my world, so I am always ready for them.

I know that there is a 95% chance that the guy in the new Commodore coming up to the red light is a good driver and will stop, but because there is a 5% chance he's a retard, I don't count on him stopping. That means I watch how fast he is travelling, cover my brakes and look for an escape route, so if he turns out to be a retard I shake my head and carry on home.

Imagine if there was a massive drive to lift other road user's game, and somehow they managed to get 99.999% of road users to be clever. In my utopian world I know that 99.999% of people now always stop for red lights, so logically when I see a green light I just ride on through with a smile on my face as I think of beer in the fridge. But when the 0.001% retard and I cross paths, I won't be expecting her I won't be prepared.

As long as there is an appreciable level of risk, we have to know what that risk is and be prepared for it. As long as there is appreciable risk and as long as we are prepared for that risk, we are in control of our safety. Until we live in a 100% safe world I don't believe we can lose the edge of danger that keeps us on our toes because it is that edge which keeps us alive.

[Scuba_Steve]

I know that there is a 5% chance that the guy in the new Commodore coming up to the red light is a good driver and will stop, but because there is a 95% chance he's a retard, I don't count on him stopping. That means I watch how fast he is travelling, cover my brakes and look for an escape route, so if he turns out to be a retard I shake my head and carry on home.


I'll let someone else point out the major flaws in your theory like "why don't we just hand everyone a licence then?". I'll just fix that major flaw above for you

[SMOKEU]

No where near 95% of drivers are "good" drivers. All too often I see bad driving:

1. People don't know how to even use their indicators properly at a roundabout.

2. Braking during, rather than before a corner.

3. Failing to keep within their own lane while cornering, cutting corners around a blind corner.

4. Failing to keep in the left lane on a multi laned road where reasonably possible.

5. Driving at 80-90kmh in a 100kmh zone, then slowing down to 70kmh in a 50kmh zone or 50kmh in a 30kmh zone when they come across a small town or road works.

6. Driving slowly and refusing to pull over to let other people past.

7. Driving at 90kmh on the open road, then increasing their speed to 110kmh in a passing lane.

The fact remains that in general, NZ drivers are bad drivers. There is no requirement for learners to be taught by a professional driving instructor, so they pick up bad habits from whichever idiot teaches them to drive.

[oneofsix]

Not a bad post, quite good in fact but....
There has to be a but or there wouldn't be a thread.
I suspect humans can not live in a risk free world, it is like living stress free, it would kill us.
And then there are the adrenaline junkies, they kind of prove that there must be a level of risk by taking it to the extreme.
If there is no risk in driving then what happens? A large number will drive in such away as to create risk. The authorities in fact use this to control us by trying to replace physical risk with financial risk, trouble is most see their financial risk as artificial, which it is, and therefore find ways to frustrate it.
Oh another point. That 5% you talk about is too often since a specific drivers whereas in fact on one day a driver could be in the 95% but the next day, or nex minit, they are in the 5% due to an unrelated trigger.

[shrub]

I'll let someone else point out the major flaws in your theory like "why don't we just hand everyone a licence then?". I'll just fix that major flaw above for you

If 95% of other road users were retards i would never leave the house, but that leads to oneofsix's point:


That 5% you talk about is too often since a specific drivers whereas in fact on one day a driver could be in the 95% but the next day, or nex minit, they are in the 5% due to an unrelated trigger.

Exactly, we need to know that at any one point anyone and everyone can turn into a retard and do something stupid. Most people are fine most of the time, but because there is no perfect driver we need to be constantly prepared.

[FJRider]

The majority of "Road users" will at some stage. Either on a one off time(s) type basis ... or ... on a regular basis ... expect other road users to make avoiding action(s) to prevent a collision with them.

The flaw in this idea, is that sometimes ...

That other road user ...

(a) Hasn't seen the offender ... in time.
(b)Hopes the offender will change their mind ... when they see no avoiding action taken.

In the case of (b) ... being "in the right" is not a good justification to being involved in an "accident" ... The term accident not really the correct term, as the offender actually did it on purpose.

[awa355]

No where near 95% of drivers are "good" drivers. All too often I see bad driving:

1. People don't know how to even use their indicators properly at a roundabout.

2. Braking during, rather than before a corner.

3. Failing to keep within their own lane while cornering, cutting corners around a blind corner.

4. Failing to keep in the left lane on a multi laned road where reasonably possible.

5. Driving at 80-90kmh in a 100kmh zone, then slowing down to 70kmh in a 50kmh zone or 50kmh in a 30kmh zone when they come across a small town or road works.

6. Driving slowly and refusing to pull over to let other people past.

7. Driving at 90kmh on the open road, then increasing their speed to 110kmh in a passing lane.


.

That sounds just like me:laugh::laugh: BUT when I'm on my bike???,

[Gremlin]

The problem is that if everyone settled, it would be at the lowest common denominator. I do 15,000km a year all city work, then a further 30,000km+ in the country. All motorcycle. The average driver is not good enough, and yes, I think I'm above average skill wise.

However, I'm still going through some advanced riding, because why shouldn't you aim to be the best you can be?

[Bassmatt]

No where near 95% of drivers are "good" drivers. All too often I see bad driving:

1. People don't know how to even use their indicators properly at a roundabout.

2. Braking during, rather than before a corner.

3. Failing to keep within their own lane while cornering, cutting corners around a blind corner.

4. Failing to keep in the left lane on a multi laned road where reasonably possible.

5. Driving at 80-90kmh in a 100kmh zone, then slowing down to 70kmh in a 50kmh zone or 50kmh in a 30kmh zone when they come across a small town or road works.

6. Driving slowly and refusing to pull over to let other people past.

7. Driving at 90kmh on the open road, then increasing their speed to 110kmh in a passing lane.


Shit, reading that I was sure you must be in Tauranga .:laugh:
ChCh drivers crap too huh?

[James Deuce]

95%? What are you on? 1% are good. Maybe 50% are below average. The rest wouldn't get a license in Nigeria because they aren't clever enough to figure that you need to bribe someone in that wonderful country to get a driver's license.

[rastuscat]

You are on to something though.

You are totally in charge of only one persons driving/riding.......your own.

You can't change everyone else, you can only change yourself. Do what you can to be as good as you can. Expect that nobody else is going to improve, as that will increase your defensiveness, and decrease your reliability on their improvement.

Use the force (your own), and all will be well.

[shrub]

You are on to something though.

You are totally in charge of only one persons driving/riding.......your own.

You can't change everyone else, you can only change yourself. Do what you can to be as good as you can. Expect that nobody else is going to improve, as that will increase your defensiveness, and decrease your reliability on their improvement.

Use the force (your own), and all will be well.

That's the key. We are solely responsible for making it to the stage where we're too old and decrepit to ride a bike, and the fact that a significant proportion of other road users are twats is in our favour because it keeps us sharp in the same way the Taleban are such cunts to fight - they've been fighting all their lives, and usually with the odds stacked against them.

The fact that every day we face retards on the road means we constantly practice the techniques we need to stay alive to the point where they're instinctive, but I reckon 6 months of riding in a low risk environment would dull anyone's edge.

[rastuscat]

That's the key. We are solely responsible for making it to the stage where we're too old and decrepit to ride a bike, and the fact that a significant proportion of other road users are twats is in our favour because it keeps us sharp in the same way the Taleban are such cunts to fight - they've been fighting all their lives, and usually with the odds stacked against them.

The fact that every day we face retards on the road means we constantly practice the techniques we need to stay alive to the point where they're instinctive, but I reckon 6 months of riding in a low risk environment would dull anyone's edge.

Feel like giving you a big Rastuscat hug.

Must suppress that.

Cringe.:shutup:

[FJRider]

... but I reckon 6 months of riding in a low risk environment would dull anyone's edge.

I disagree ... I was in rush hour traffic today. After the four cars and two trucks involved, turned off ... all was as per normal. No stress involved ...

[bikaholic]

In the last year (2011) the significant drop in the road toll (about 90 IIRC), as compared to 2010, the toll dropped in all districts except Wellington, and dropped across all 'groups' except motorcyclists aged between 40 - 59 year old.

So everyone wants to point the finger at every other group, but it is surprising in reality who the so called 'retards' actually are.
Given that the average age of a motorcylist male is 49 years, it would appear that bikers have to lift their game.

[Clockwork]

No mate.... Us Wellington drivers and "mature" riders were already ahead of the curve.... the rest just started to close the gap, is all.

[scumdog]

No where near 95% of drivers are "good" drivers. All too often I see bad driving:

1. People don't know how to even use their indicators properly at a roundabout.

2. Braking during, rather than before a corner.

3. Failing to keep within their own lane while cornering, cutting corners around a blind corner.

4. Failing to keep in the left lane on a multi laned road where reasonably possible.

5. Driving at 80-90kmh in a 100kmh zone, then slowing down to 70kmh in a 50kmh zone or 50kmh in a 30kmh zone when they come across a small town or road works.

6. Driving slowly and refusing to pull over to let other people past.

7. Driving at 90kmh on the open road, then increasing their speed to 110kmh in a passing lane.

The fact remains that in general, NZ drivers are bad drivers. There is no requirement for learners to be taught by a professional driving instructor, so they pick up bad habits from whichever idiot teaches them to drive.

Sadly the above fits the description of a great majority of drivers - except if I (or my workmates) is visible to them.

Add:

Rolling through stop signs

Barely slowing going through give-ways

Cutting corners when making a right-turn in town

Turn first THEN indicate.

And you've really summed up most drivers.

And dead right about crap driving standards passed on by siblings/parents teaching them to 'drive' - (more like "How to get the car moving, not to hit anything and bring it to a stop most of the time")

[neels]

"How to get the car moving, not to hit anything and bring it to a stop most of the time")
Like most things in life, there are a large number of people who are happy to meet the minimum required standard.

[caspernz]

That's the key. We are solely responsible for making it to the stage where we're too old and decrepit to ride a bike, and the fact that a significant proportion of other road users are twats is in our favour because it keeps us sharp in the same way the Taleban are such cunts to fight - they've been fighting all their lives, and usually with the odds stacked against them.

The fact that every day we face retards on the road means we constantly practice the techniques we need to stay alive to the point where they're instinctive, but I reckon 6 months of riding in a low risk environment would dull anyone's edge.

It's funny how some posters chose to focus on the percentages you used... But in essence I agree that practice makes perfect, reduce the dickhead count on the road and you may gradually relax to the point where you miss the signs of the one that could kill you.

Another approach is that riding enough clicks, ie two wheeled time on the road, in itself keeps you sharp.

Returning riders are a problem though. One of my colleagues fits into this category, with at least 15 years since road riding. Talking with him about some of the challenges he admits he's having...his approach is all wrong yet he doesn't see any need for some refresher training. Oh well, I've been open about having done some Prorider training, taken some ribbing for it (as if I care) and yet this dude is only gonna admit he needs help once he's in a hospital bed?

The average Kiwi driver (and rider) are quite poor, but also impatient, combative and talk about indecision running rife! To a point this makes them predictable, or I should say that once you've driven/ridden a few million kilometres, so you can just about see what's gonna happen before it actually does.

[Clockwork]

Sadly the above fits the description of a great majority of drivers - except if I (or my workmates) is visible to them.

Add:

Rolling through stop signs Why stop when you can see there is nothing to stop for ????

Barely slowing going through give-ways Again, if there is no one to Give Way to, whats your point???

Cutting corners when making a right-turn in town I don't do this myself but if no one else is at or approaching the intersection, who gives a fuck?

Turn first THEN indicate.

And you've really summed up most drivers.

And dead right about crap driving standards passed on by siblings/parents teaching them to 'drive' - (more like "How to get the car moving, not to hit anything and bring it to a stop most of the time")



I was taught by my parents (not to drive through stop signs, I choose to do that as an act of rebellion against against petty minded bureaucrats). I taught my kids to drive (again, not to drive through STOP signs but to look thoroughly at each and every intersection regardless of its signage).

I'm happy to stand by my driving record. So far, my kids are doing well too.

[scumdog]

I was taught by my parents (not to drive through stop signs, I choose to do that as an act of rebellion against against petty minded bureaucrats). I taught my kids to drive (again, not to drive through STOP signs but to look thoroughly at each and every intersection regardless of its signage).

I'm happy to stand by my driving record. So far, my kids are doing well too.

I've :
Never been to a crash at a Stop sign where the offending car had stopped- then driven into the car that had the right of way

Never been to a crash at a Give Way controlled intersection where the offending driver had driven through it with caution instead of blasting straight through

Never been to a crash where somebody making a right turn onto a side street hit the car rolling up to the intersection on ITS incorrect side of the road.

Funny dat...

[Highlander]

I've :
Never been to a crash at a Stop sign where the offending car had stopped- then driven into the car that had the right of way

...

I was the bike that had right of way. I nearly missed the car that had stopped at the compulsory stop then pulled out in front of me.
Two up on wet road, fortunatey l kept it upright and no one was hurt, the rest is what I pay insurance for.

Car v bike accident that you can still ride home from is a good one though eh? :niceone:

[Clockwork]

I've :
Never been to a crash at a Stop sign where the offending car had stopped- then driven into the car that had the right of way

Never been to a crash at a Give Way controlled intersection where the offending driver had driven through it with caution instead of blasting straight through

Never been to a crash where somebody making a right turn onto a side street hit the car rolling up to the intersection on ITS incorrect side of the road.

Funny dat...

What a coincidence, I've never been through an intersection and been hit by a car that wasn't there!!

[koba]

I was taught by my parents (not to drive through stop signs, I choose to do that as an act of rebellion against against petty minded bureaucrats). I taught my kids to drive (again, not to drive through STOP signs but to look thoroughly at each and every intersection regardless of its signage).

I'm happy to stand by my driving record. So far, my kids are doing well too.

Not all stop signs are equal, some really do require a proper stop. I've seen and been involved in multitudes of near misses at local ones that really mean STOP!
As an interesting side point this (http://maps.google.co.nz/maps?q=upper+hutt&hl=en&ll=-41.125226,175.06833&spn=0.000539,0.001313&sll=-41.244772,172.617188&sspn=35.139773,86.044922&hnear=Upper+Hutt,+Wellington&t=h&z=20) intersection is a rare example of one that should really be a stop but is instead a give way. Any guesses why?

[Shadows]

Shit, reading that I was sure you must be in Tauranga .:laugh:
ChCh drivers crap too huh?

You don't know the half of it.

[Berries]

And dead right about crap driving standards passed on by siblings/parents teaching them to 'drive' - (more like "How to get the car moving, not to hit anything and bring it to a stop most of the time")
If you can go out and not hit anything then you have pretty much succeeded in being a safe rider/driver.

[SMOKEU]

If you can go out and not hit anything then you have pretty much succeeded in being a safe rider/driver.

I know idiots who frequently txt on their phone while driving, and they think that you're only meant to use your brakes on a car when you've already started turning, not before the corner. They are so distracted by their phones and their passenger that they drive straight through stop signs and red lights without even noticing. How's that for a safe driver?

It's only a matter of "when", that their luck finally runs out and they kill an innocent person or write themselves off into the path of an oncoming truck or into a power pole.

[shrub]

I was taught by my parents (not to drive through stop signs, I choose to do that as an act of rebellion against against petty minded bureaucrats). I taught my kids to drive (again, not to drive through STOP signs but to look thoroughly at each and every intersection regardless of its signage).

I'm happy to stand by my driving record. So far, my kids are doing well too.

Thank you, as part of the 5% you help me keep my game up.

[shrub]

It's funny how some posters chose to focus on the percentages you used... But in essence I agree that practice makes perfect, reduce the dickhead count on the road and you may gradually relax to the point where you miss the signs of the one that could kill you.

Another approach is that riding enough clicks, ie two wheeled time on the road, in itself keeps you sharp.

Returning riders are a problem though. One of my colleagues fits into this category, with at least 15 years since road riding. Talking with him about some of the challenges he admits he's having...his approach is all wrong yet he doesn't see any need for some refresher training. Oh well, I've been open about having done some Prorider training, taken some ribbing for it (as if I care) and yet this dude is only gonna admit he needs help once he's in a hospital bed?

The average Kiwi driver (and rider) are quite poor, but also impatient, combative and talk about indecision running rife! To a point this makes them predictable, or I should say that once you've driven/ridden a few million kilometres, so you can just about see what's gonna happen before it actually does.

Yeah, the 5% was a figure I plucked from my arse - it may be 1%, it may be 10%, but who cares. The fact that I am still alive and have never had an off that was caused by anyone else suggests that most people are safe enough most of the time. If not, I would be well dead by now given how much time I spend in traffic on my bike.

But you're right, practice is the biggest thing. I find that if I haven't been riding for even a couple of weeks my riding is crap for the first half hour or so until I pick it up. Any sportsman or musician is constantly practicing and training, even off season, because they know that the moment they stop their game drops. The difference is that the lead guitarist in a band is unlikely to die if he plays a few dud notes.

As an aside, I reckon one of the reasons there are so many crashes in holiday season is because most of the people hauling the Pajero full of kids up State Highway 1 haven't travelled faster than 70 kmh since last holidays and fuck up.

[Clockwork]

Not all stop signs are equal, some really do require a proper stop. I've seen and been involved in multitudes of near misses at local ones that really mean STOP!
As an interesting side point this (http://maps.google.co.nz/maps?q=upper+hutt&hl=en&ll=-41.125226,175.06833&spn=0.000539,0.001313&sll=-41.244772,172.617188&sspn=35.139773,86.044922&hnear=Upper+Hutt,+Wellington&t=h&z=20) intersection is a rare example of one that should really be a stop but is instead a give way. Any guesses why?

I agree, One of several such intersections throughout Upper Hutt that should be compulsory stop. You simply cannot see if there are any pedestrians about to walk out from behind those adjacent buildings!! In this, case that intersection is used mainly by the local constabulary to exit their car park.

And yet Upper Hutt is full of compulsory stop intersections where the visibility in both directions is fine!

[Clockwork]

Thank you, as part of the 5% you help me keep my game up.

You don't have to worry about me mate, I like to use my head as well as my eyes when driving.

Funny how many of us seem happy to ignore arbitrary speed limits. but assume Stop signs must always be obeyed even when you can see that there is no reason to stop.

IMO Stop signs exist to alert drivers that they simply can't navigate the intersection without stopping because their view of it is obstructed. Any other purpose is an abuse.

If Stopping makes every intersection safer why not do away with Give Way intersections altogether?

Accidents at intersections occur when drivers dont look, stopped or otherwise!

[davereid]

I nearly missed the car that had stopped at the compulsory stop then pulled out in front of me.


Ahh yes the safety lady pointed out my "near miss register" at the workshop had no entries.

I said thats because they are all in the other book. The accident register.

Funny that.

[shrub]

You don't have to worry about me mate, I like to use my head as well as my eyes when driving.

Can you trust your eyes 100% all the time? I can't and I don't.




Funny how many of us seem happy to ignore arbitrary speed limits. but assume Stop signs must always be obeyed even when you can see that there is no reason to stop.

IMO Stop signs exist to alert drivers that they simply can't navigate the intersection without stopping because their view of it is obstructed. Any other purpose is an abuse.

I think you'll find that pretty well every stop sign is a stop sign because there is a risk, and while I am sure there are a few that could probably be give way signs, do you know which ones they are? In essence you admit that you come up to a stop sign, have a quick look, decide there is nothing coming, and go. What if there is a tree or building that blocks a small portion of your visibility - so small you miss it, but still big enough to hide me on my bike? And when do you decide when a stop sign is necessary and when it is an "abuse of power"?

But the part that worries me is your attitude. You used the words "an act of rebellion" to describe the motivation behind your driving decisions, and people who treat driving as an act of rebellion are dangerous to every one else. You say you are rebelling against "petty minded bureaucrats", and while I find them as irritating as anyone, driving dangerously has ZERO impact on them, yet places other road users in danger. If you really want to change the world there are better ways.

[Swoop]

My rationale behind this is that 95% of road users are pretty good overall,

I know that there are 5% of the people on the road who drive like retards and don't stop at red lights, tail gate, don't look, don't indicate, get pissed etc.
Evidence for those statistics?
As for Auckland, you could reverse those estimates, easily.

Driving skills in this country are low. If the purported "1st World Status" of the country is to be believed, our individual driving skills should be much higher.

[shrub]

Evidence for those statistics?
As for Auckland, you could reverse those estimates, easily.

Driving skills in this country are low. If the purported "1st World Status" of the country is to be believed, our individual driving skills should be much higher.

No evidence, most people are perfectly competent and safe most of the time. The actually numbers have no bearing on the argument that the fact that some other road users are idiots works in our favour if we take the position that our safety is completely our responsibility.

[chasio]

Can you trust your eyes 100% all the time? I can't and I don't.

I think you'll find that pretty well every stop sign is a stop sign because there is a risk, and while I am sure there are a few that could probably be give way signs, do you know which ones they are? In essence you admit that you come up to a stop sign, have a quick look, decide there is nothing coming, and go. What if there is a tree or building that blocks a small portion of your visibility - so small you miss it, but still big enough to hide me on my bike? And when do you decide when a stop sign is necessary and when it is an "abuse of power"?

But the part that worries me is your attitude. You used the words "an act of rebellion" to describe the motivation behind your driving decisions, and people who treat driving as an act of rebellion are dangerous to every one else. You say you are rebelling against "petty minded bureaucrats", and while I find them as irritating as anyone, driving dangerously has ZERO impact on them, yet places other road users in danger. If you really want to change the world there are better ways.

Well said.

And another thing... Mashman posted this up in another thread and it has really made me think about blind spots some more: blind spot stuff (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17511-the-blind-spot-and-the-vanishing-head-illusion.html)

I followed the links and mapped my blindspot and was pretty amazed at how large a chunk of my vision was actually being invented by my brain filling in the blanks based on surrounding information.

Besides, practising static balance at a Stop sign is a good skill drill (as a second activity to actually looking, of course).

[Tink]

As I spend the majority of my working day on a motorbike, 4-6 hours a day, WE are trained with the 12 sec rule, eyes and ears constantly looking ahead for the unexpected, my trainer said if I was in a accident, it would be my fault regardless, because I should have expected it. This theory sounded weird to me, but after being on the bike now since beginning of November, he is right, any incident that could have occurred would have been my fault, (in the eyes of the law possibly not)..... believe me it works, so I have to agree with Shrub in the sense of EXPECT THE UNEXPECTED at all times.

[Clockwork]

Can you trust your eyes 100% all the time? I can't and I don't. So far, so good. Past close calls (and I suspect this is true for many drivers) have been where a vehicle approaching from the left has been hidden behind the door pillar. Not a problem on the bike, but every bit as much a problem for any car at every give way intersection. On that basis, lets make all right turns compulsory stops.


I think you'll find that pretty well every stop sign is a stop sign because there is a risk, and while I am sure there are a few that could probably be give way signs, do you know which ones they are? In essence you admit that you come up to a stop sign, have a quick look, decide there is nothing coming, and go. What if there is a tree or building that blocks a small portion of your visibility - so small you miss it, but still big enough to hide me on my bike? And when do you decide when a stop sign is necessary and when it is an "abuse of power"?

When I can see the intersection clearly in both directions as I approach it.

But the part that worries me is your attitude. You used the words "an act of rebellion" to describe the motivation behind your driving decisions, and people who treat driving as an act of rebellion are dangerous to every one else. You say you are rebelling against "petty minded bureaucrats", and while I find them as irritating as anyone, driving dangerously has ZERO impact on them, yet places other road users in danger. If you really want to change the world there are better ways.

What sanctimonious crap. Why can't you accept that there are intersections where there is no reason to stop when you can see that there is no one to give way to, why can't you accept that if I choose to drive through such an intersection when the way is clear, that I'm endangering no one.

I've given up trying to change world, too many people such as demonstrated by yourself here are unwilling to challenge and just accept the absurdity of some of the petty rules that govern our lives. I suggest that if you really think what I am doing is so dangerous you personally should never drive through any intersection without stopping as it appears you are unwilling or unable to trust your eyes or your ability to make rational decisions for yourself and consider everyone else equally incapable.

Personally, I think the authorities silly abuse of Stop signs will prove far more dangerous in the long run.

[shrub]

What sanctimonious crap. Why can't you accept that there are intersections where there is no reason to stop when you can see that there is no one to give way to, why can't you accept that if I choose to drive through such an intersection when the way is clear, that I'm endangering no one..

What is "petty" about requiring people to stop at compulsory stop signs? And why don't you stop? Too much of a hurry, or just too lazy? I nearly got taken out last night by someone working for a company called Probuild Construction because they felt that they didn't need to stop when the light turned red. They probably felt completely justified in their decision in the same way you feel justified.


I've given up trying to change world, too many people such as demonstrated by yourself here are unwilling to challenge or accept the absurdity of some of the petty rules that govern our lives. I suggest that if you really think what I am doing is so dangerous you personally should never drive through any intersection without stopping as it appears you are unwilling or unable to trust your eyes or your ability to make rational decisions for yourself and consider everyone else equally incapable

So instead of doing something constructive that will actually make a difference, you just ignore the rules when it suits you? And I don't consider everyone else incapable of driving safely, just people like you.

[Swoop]

most people are perfectly competent and safe most of the time.
That is a position that will get anyone into danger. Presume that everyone else is mentally retarded when in control of a motor vehicle and act accordingly.

our safety is completely our responsibility.
How did katman get your login?:shifty:

[shrub]

That is a position that will get anyone into danger. Presume that everyone else is mentally retarded when in control of a motor vehicle and act accordingly.

Yeah, but I prefer sleepy and distracted. If they're mentally retarded you can't reason with them and they do random and stupid shit, whereas confused and distracted people just do dumb shit that can often be predicted. For example, a loony will just turn in front of you because Jesus told them to and you have no idea when that will be. On the other hand a sleepy and distracted person usually has a reason to do that U turn like turning into a driveway, they thought that the gap in cars where you were was a break in the traffic etc, and if you know what to look for there are usually warning signs. A loony doesn't care what happens to you (or them), whereas a sleepy person doesn't want to kill or maim anyone else, and especially doesn't want to get into trouble with the Cunstables and pay a hefty fine. That means if they know you're there and know that turning will fuck things up for everyone including them, they won't do it, no matter how much Jesus says please.



How did katman get your login?:shifty:

Nah, but he makes a lot of sense. Most of the time. Ugly bike though.

[Clockwork]

What is "petty" about requiring people to stop at compulsory stop signs? And why don't you stop? Too much of a hurry, or just too lazy? I nearly got taken out last night by someone working for a company called Probuild Construction because they felt that they didn't need to stop when the light turned red. They probably felt completely justified in their decision in the same way you feel justified.



So instead of doing something constructive that will actually make a difference, you just ignore the rules when it suits you? And I don't consider everyone else incapable of driving safely, just people like you.


Sorry, maybe I haven't made myself clear. Because I said I could see no good reason for coming to a complete stop at every intersection marked as such does not mean that I blast through them with gay abandon as you seem to assume. I approach EVERY intersection the same way regardless of their markings, depending on my need to turn left or right. In nearly every case when turning right I will need to slow down to almost a standstill in order to ascertain if it is safe to proceed. Note though that I often don't need to come to a complete standstill in order to do this and as such ...... I do... I really do resent pedants such as yourself and possibly officer Scumdog, pinging me simply because I didn't stop when I bloody well didn't need to because the intersection never needed to be a compulsory stop by the first place.

'Tis a sad day for me.... I alway thought you were one of the more intelligent posters on this site, I even agree wholeheartedly with your initial post on this thread but apparently you too have subjects upon which your mind is closed.

[SMOKEU]

my trainer said if I was in a accident, it would be my fault regardless, because I should have expected it.

So then it's your fault if some drunk idiot drives through a red light at 100kmh and wipes you out as you're riding through a green light at 50kmh. Contrary to what Katman will tell you, not all SMIDSY's are the fault of the rider.

[Ocean1]

Maybe 50% are below average.

That's just mean.


You are on to something though.

You are totally in charge of only one persons driving/riding.......your own.

You can't change everyone else, you can only change yourself. Do what you can to be as good as you can. Expect that nobody else is going to improve, as that will increase your defensiveness, and decrease your reliability on their improvement.

Use the force (your own), and all will be well.

Absolutley correct, very good.

Now stop trying to change everyone else.


That's the key. We are solely responsible for making it to the stage where we're too old and decrepit to ride a bike...

I aced that stage ages ago. Still riding.

Guess that makes me one of dem 10%, eh?

[Katman]

Contrary to what Katman will tell you, not all SMIDSY's are the fault of the rider.

There you go again - getting hung up on that word 'fault'.

[Ocean1]

Driving skills in this country are low. If the purported "1st World Status" of the country is to be believed, our individual driving skills should be much higher.

Then why do the vast majority of us survive hundreds of hours on the road every year?

[Ocean1]

Besides, practising static balance at a Stop sign is a good skill drill (as a second activity to actually looking, of course).

And it'll get you a "failed to stop" ticket prety much every time you're seen.

I've been pinged 3 times for it.

[FJRider]

So then it's your fault if some drunk idiot drives through a red light at 100kmh and wipes you out as you're riding through a green light at 50kmh. Contrary to what Katman will tell you, not all SMIDSY's are the fault of the rider.

I've been involved in several car/motorcycle accident whilst I was riding a motorcycle. The one's where I was NOT at fault ... did not hurt any less, nor was ever fully reimbursed for any loss I suffered at the time. :facepalm:

Nor did "not being at fault" ... make me feel any better. It actually felt worse ... :pinch:

[Ocean1]

So instead of doing something constructive that will actually make a difference, you just ignore the rules when it suits you?

It's called rational anarchism. It's probably the most accurate description of how most of us behave.

[FJRider]

Then why do the vast majority of us survive hundreds of hours on the road every year?

I think the majority of the one's that do hundreds of hours on the road ... are not the problem.

And have learned to recognise the one's that are ... in the interest of their own survival ...

[SMOKEU]

There you go again - getting hung up on that word 'fault'.

You're always the first to blame the rider in just about any crash, even when you have little, if any knowledge about what happened.

[shrub]

Sorry, maybe I haven't made myself clear. Because I said I could see no good reason for coming to a complete stop at every intersection marked as such does not mean that I blast through them with gay abandon as you seem to assume. I approach EVERY intersection the same way regardless of their markings, depending on my need to turn left or right. In nearly every case when turning right I will need to slow down to almost a standstill in order to ascertain if it is safe to proceed. Note though that I often don't need to come to a complete standstill in order to do this and as such ...... I do... I really do resent pedants such as yourself and possibly officer Scumdog, pinging me simply because I didn't stop when I bloody well didn't need to because the intersection never needed to be a compulsory stop by the first place.

'Tis a sad day for me.... I alway thought you were one of the more intelligent posters on this site, I even agree wholeheartedly with your initial post on this thread but apparently you too have subjects upon which your mind is closed.

You probably picked the wrong person to tell that you don't think stopping at a compulsory stop is necessary. About 12 years ago I was following my then girlfriend home on our pushbikes - I always followed her, the view was spectacular. A guy in a car was coming up to a stop sign to our left obviously we had the right of way. I realised he wasn't going to stop, so I yelled and hit my brakes. He only realised that Jen was there when she went under his car.

He was very apologetic, and his excuse was that he drove that road every day and hadn't stopped because he didn't think anything was coming, and that the visibility was fine. The cop said he had heard the same story many times before, and the guy lost his license for a shitload of time, which I believe cost him his job. He also paid a fine and reparation to Jen.

Jen nearly lost her leg, broke half her ribs, punctured a lung and had half her face torn off. She also lost her job and went from being a super fit and drop dead gorgeous young woman to overweight, depressed and incredibly conscious of her scarring - which was extensive. We split up a year or so later for a lot of reasons and I still curse the loser who didn't think he needed to obey an important safety rule.

Now, tell me again why you don't think you need to stop at stop signs and explain how that will never happen when you're driving?

[Katman]

You're always the first to blame the rider in just about any crash, even when you have little, if any knowledge about what happened.

I don't give a fuck about 'blame' or 'fault'.

If an accident is avoidable, the person who failed to avoid it deserves admonition.

[SMOKEU]

If an accident is avoidable, the person who failed to avoid it deserves admonition.

How do you determine if it was avoidable without actually having witnessed the crash?

[Katman]

How do you determine if it was avoidable without actually having witnessed the crash?

The vast majority of accidents are avoidable.

You're just too entrenched in your victim mentality to recognise it.

[shrub]

The vast majority of accidents are avoidable..

I would add a proviso - the vast majority of crashes are avoidable if you have the right skills and the right attitude.


You're just too entrenched in your victim mentality to recognise it

And that is the attitude that makes crashing unavoidable.

[Katman]

I would add a proviso - the vast majority of crashes are avoidable if you have the right skills and the right attitude.


As I've always said.......

To get anywhere we will first have to suffer the indignation of pointing our finger at ourselves before we ever consider we have the right to point it at anyone else.

[Clockwork]

You probably picked the wrong person to tell that you don't think stopping at a compulsory stop is necessary. About 12 years ago I was following my then girlfriend home on our pushbikes - I always followed her, the view was spectacular. A guy in a car was coming up to a stop sign to our left obviously we had the right of way. I realised he wasn't going to stop, so I yelled and hit my brakes. He only realised that Jen was there when she went under his car.

He was very apologetic, and his excuse was that he drove that road every day and hadn't stopped because he didn't think anything was coming, and that the visibility was fine. The cop said he had heard the same story many times before, and the guy lost his license for a shitload of time, which I believe cost him his job. He also paid a fine and reparation to Jen.

Jen nearly lost her leg, broke half her ribs, punctured a lung and had half her face torn off. She also lost her job and went from being a super fit and drop dead gorgeous young woman to overweight, depressed and incredibly conscious of her scarring - which was extensive. We split up a year or so later for a lot of reasons and I still curse the loser who didn't think he needed to obey an important safety rule.

Now, tell me again why you don't think you need to stop at stop signs and explain how that will never happen when you're driving?

So sorry.... would it have been more excusable if it was just a Give Way sign he bowled through without looking??

Pfft... I've had my say, you're right (as always) and I'm just another of the five percent fuckwits that keeps you such an outstanding member of the 95% club. Funny thing is, no matter how good the rest of you get...... 50% of us will always be below average.

[Swoop]

Then why do the vast majority of us survive hundreds of hours on the road every year?
We hear about the death toll on the roads, but I would like to see some numbers regarding the quantity of crashes/accidents that occur per year. It would be interesting im sure.


Oh dear.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10783288

NZ driving 'crazy, like being in Greece'Visiting drivers say they are shocked at the lack of courtesy and patience displayed by Kiwis

New Zealand may have just had its lowest road toll in six decades, but our drivers are just as rude and reckless as ever, visitors have told the Weekend Herald.

The Automobile Association has echoed their complaints, describing the average car-bound Kiwi as "impatient" and "not very courteous", while a police traffic boss has told of New Zealand's history and reputation for aggressive drivers.

Tamsyn and Mike Hicks yesterday returned to the UK after having been "constantly shocked" by Kiwi drivers and say our attitudes on the road is a regular conversation topic among other visiting Brits.

"We've seen some crazy manoeuvres and a number of close misses - far more than you would ever experience at home," Mrs Hicks said.

"The main reason for it, we found, was impatience. We saw it quoted in a guidebook somewhere that Kiwis are all very lovely and relaxed and gentle, but as soon as they get behind the wheel they turn into these impatient crazy people, and we just experienced that to be true."

One constant problem was tail-gating, she said, which the couple encountered no matter how fast they travelled.

"We just find it infuriating, to be honest, but every time we read about crashes in the paper over here it was almost never blamed on dangerous driving - and generally always the road was blamed.

"You can't blame the roads. It's just the courtesy and the patience."

Mrs Hicks said she was shocked to find the UK Foreign and Commonwealth Office advising prospective visitors to New Zealand that the country had a 2010 rate of 8.7 road deaths per 100,000 of population - compared to the UK rate of 3.1.

One UK ex-pat, Aucklander Jamie Roberts, said the quality of New Zealand driving was "one of my rants all the time to my wife".

"It's almost the first thing anyone ever talks about when they meet each other - you say, how are you finding it, and they say it's great - but the driving is crazy, it's like being in Greece or somewhere," he said.

Mr Roberts, who has lived in New Zealand for several years and whose job has him cover around 70,000km of road each year, said he found having to take evasive driving manoeuvres was "alien" when he first moved here.

"Coming from the UK, I never thought we were particularly safe drivers until I lived here," he said.

"I'm not one of these Poms that whinges about other countries - it's a small price to pay to live here - but right from the top down, the attitude to driving is just one of those things like breathing."

A quick Google search found several blog sites by UK tourists dedicated to detesting our driving.

And travellers' bible Lonely Planet advised visitors to take care, writing that the country's roads were "often made hazardous by speeding locals, wide-cornering campervans and traffic-ignorant sheep".

Automobile Association spokesman Mike Noon put the problem down to a combination of our drivers, vehicles and roads.

"Our roads are quite unforgiving and, if you do make a mistake, it's likely you'll end up in a ditch or hitting a power pole. We've got a lot of roads where ... there's too much traffic and crossing the centre line can often mean hitting another vehicle."

As drivers, we were impatient and uncourteous, "and that is not to our benefit", he said.

Acting Superintendent Rob Morgan, national manager of road policing, acknowledged New Zealand had a "history and reputation for having aggressive drivers".

He also said our many two-way roads did not help our statistics.

"Other countries do have many more speed cameras and automatic ways of enforcing speed and other road behaviour, but nothing's ever simple as one answer - a lot of countries we are compared against have far more congestion than we do, and congestion lowers speeds and lowers impacts."

He said complaints from tourists were common.

"But that's always open to debate - for every complaint we get from a tourist, we get another complaint from a local complaining about tourists, so it's a bit hard to form those judgments."

The world's deadliest roads (2010)
1 Greece 113 deaths*
2 Romania 111 deaths
3 United States 106 deaths
4= Bulgaria, Poland 102 deaths
5 Latvia 97 deaths
6 Croatia 96 deaths
7 Lithuania 90 deaths
8 New Zealand 87 deaths
9 Portugal 79 deaths
10 Belgium 77 deaths
18 Australia 60 deaths
30 Great Britain 31 deaths

International statistics are based on 2010 figures, the latest comparisons available, and do not reflect last year's New Zealand road toll of 284, the lowest since 1952.
*Per million pop.

Source: Department for Transport (UK)

[blue rider]

it all comes down to a lack of driving education, and yes yes one can not educate all. But by the light, why can't it made be compulsory to at least have to attend a defensive driving course before getting the L plate and being unleashed on the general unsuspecting public.

There is very little courtesy on NZ Roads, there is very little communication between Road Users (and this is the largest problem imho), there is only a me me me first attitude. Yeah I know, everyone here is very competitive and runs after a ball or is hitting one, but really the road should be treated with some more respect.

as for the stage of NZ Roads, i have seen worse in Italy, or in the South of France, and in the nowhere lands between Switzerland/France/Italy in the mountains. Ha, East Germany after the wall came down, when they ran out of tar, they stopped building...t'was fun.

But one pays attention, uses their horn in tight corners to alert others of the oncoming vehicle, uses their wits and tries to stay on their side of the road etc etc. Here it is more like, my vehicle is bigger than yours, so go get effd.

i just don't get it! Eventually we are all reduced to 30 km/hr on the highway, because people just don't want to "share" the road but rather enjoy using their vehicle as a wank off tool.

[Ocean1]

"You can't blame the roads. It's just the courtesy and the patience."


I disagree. I reckon you can blame the roads. The courtesy and patience I see in Blighty is pretty much on par with here.

That’s not to say I think the roads here need fixing, but of all the driving variables between here and other, similar cultures with similar vehicles the roads themselves represent the biggest difference. Like you, I’d be interested in seeing the full data set, distance travelled, traffic density, fleet age, etc. But I’m picking the distances travelled at reasonable speed on dual carriageway B roads is reasonably high here.

The dissapointing thing is that we're unlikely to ever see data collected for anything other than justification of transport policy decisions. The difference in collection methods alone would corrupt the model beyond anything useful.


Edit: this explains some of that fatalities / pop list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_per_capita

[shrub]

So sorry.... would it have been more excusable if it was just a Give Way sign he bowled through without looking??

Pfft... I've had my say, you're right (as always) and I'm just another of the five percent fuckwits that keeps you such an outstanding member of the 95% club. Funny thing is, no matter how good the rest of you get...... 50% of us will always be below average.

The thing is mate, it's not about being right or being wrong, or even being a good or bad driver. It's recognising that there are and always will be drivers that do dumb and dangerous shit, and no matter how many laws are passed, billboards go up or TV ads get run, they will be there. That means bad drivers are a constant factor that we can't change.

Because you and thousands of others see no reason to stop at every stop sign, when I see a car coming up to a stop sign there is a very real chance someone like you is behind the wheel and I ride accordingly. I use strategies to increase the chances you'll see me, and because there is a good chance you won't see me I have my fingers over the brake, watch your speed and rate of deceleration and find an escape route in case you don't stop.

The same applies when the woman who thinks that 2 metres is a safe following distance is behind me in traffic. She's real and there are thousands like her, so if I don't want to be her bonnet emblem I keep an eye on my mirrors, and always check before I brake. Or when the guy on the sportsbike, who likes to have his wheels on the white line in rh corners because that's the fastest line, is coming the other way on a windy road. If I want to make it to the pub to lie about my riding skill I need to know that there are a lot of people like him out there, and always make sure my line is well away from the cenreline, even if it's not the fast line.

There are many, many thousands of people out there who have dangerous driving habits. While some people do it because they don't know any better, and education and training can stop them; there are a lot that do it because they don't see why they shouldn't, and they will never change. I gave you a real life example of where 2 lives were fucked up because a guy did almost exactly what you claim to do, yet you didn't see any reason to change your behaviour. I guess you think crashes only happen to other people.

People who drive (and ride) dangerously will never go away, so we either let them kill and maim us, or we make sure that the way we ride compensates for their incompetency. Whining about how Someone Should Do Something About It, and that them Cuntstables don't prosecute people who don't stop at red lights is attractive because that makes it someone else's problem and then all we have to do is sit on our arses and complain, but it also increases the odds of getting a bed bath from a gay male nurse. Changing our attitudes and changing the way we ride is harder because we actually have to do something, but it means we have more control of the outcome, and then the only thing getting tenderly washed is our bike.

[shrub]

I disagree. I reckon you can blame the roads. The courtesy and patience I see in Blighty is pretty much on par with here.

That’s not to say I think the roads here need fixing, but of all the driving variables between here and other, similar cultures with similar vehicles the roads themselves represent the biggest difference. Like you, I’d be interested in seeing the full data set, distance travelled, traffic density, fleet age, etc. But I’m picking the distances travelled at reasonable speed on dual carriageway B roads is reasonably high here.

The dissapointing thing is that we're unlikely to ever see data collected for anything other than justification of transport policy decisions. The difference in collection methods alone would corrupt the model beyond anything useful.

Ugly roads are real - you want to ride down here, we envy Nigeria for the quality of their roads, but they're also constant. A road is either good or bad, and in my experience they only change overnight if there's a major quake, so you ride accordingly. If you don't know the road you make sure you ride at an appropriate speed so you don't find yourself at 10/10ths heading straight for a pothole. And even if it's a road you know well, if it's been a while since you rode it you take it easy in case there's been damage or roadworks since you were last there.

[chasio]

And it'll get you a "failed to stop" ticket prety much every time you're seen.

I've been pinged 3 times for it.

What a bugger. I do it at a couple of junctions in the city more-or-less every day and never been pinged. Must admit there are no doughnuts shops in the area, though. Is there actually a law for foot down? I kind of doubt it is that explicit. But point taken.

My wife got a failed to stop ticket at a shit-house designed junction close to where we live. She had been driving the road very regularly for 5 years and she had never noticed it was actually a Stop sign, probably as it's on a 2 foot pole for some reason. She is honestly one of the best and safest drivers I have ever been driven by, but she had been making this mistake, unconsciously, for years.

When she told me I (a) nearly fell off my chair and (b) told her how close to being taken out I have been at that junction for precisely that reason (multiple cases of me giving way when with priority or other evasive action). She now stops there.

I can understand mistakes (at whatever percentage), but what I can't understand is a person who pathologically decides that they know best at every junction, regardless of signage. Our brain makes shit up all the time and we assume we see things that are in fact invented. How can I know what ALL the hazards are at a particular junction? If it's a stop I don't agree with, it's probably a black-spot. So I don't blame the pencil pushers: I blame the idiots that have caused accidents there.

[chasio]

I disagree. I reckon you can blame the roads. The courtesy and patience I see in Blighty is pretty much on par with here.

Partially I agree with you. But I do believe that the over-riding attitude to road-use in the UK and most of Europe is collaborative and here it is competitive. And for me, that's a key factor.

What would happen if we all left for Aussie (give it a few years...) and you put 4 million Brits** in NZ? Due to the collaboration factor, I believe that there would be fewer accidents here if that happened. More proportionally than in the UK (attributable to road design & maintenance plus other factors), but fewer than we have now.

My $0.02 anyways

Chasio

** Chosen over e.g. Germans or Dutch etc. as Brits are used to driving on the left

[caspernz]

But I do believe that the over-riding attitude to road-use in the UK and most of Europe is collaborative and here it is competitive. And for me, that's a key factor.

This is oh so true! Until a Kiwi has spent a bit of time in Europe driving or riding, this will remain just something that us imports comment on. It's hilarious in a sense, over here you put your indicator on and often some small minded prick will try and close the gap you're aiming for. In Europe, by and large, the driver in the same situation just eases off a little. Hey, we're still all moving in the right direction... Oh well, I've driven trucks for 25 years on three continents, so the whole hurry hurry approach has long since gone by the wayside for me. Maybe it's the pioneering spirit that makes lots of Kiwi drivers so damn combative?

[Ocean1]

Ugly roads are real - you want to ride down here, we envy Nigeria for the quality of their roads, but they're also constant. A road is either good or bad, and in my experience they only change overnight if there's a major quake, so you ride accordingly. If you don't know the road you make sure you ride at an appropriate speed so you don't find yourself at 10/10ths heading straight for a pothole. And even if it's a road you know well, if it's been a while since you rode it you take it easy in case there's been damage or roadworks since you were last there.

Quite. I did suggest that I don't see any easy fix. The fact remains; our roads are constructed on budgets drawn from very few taxpayers per kilometre, around some seriously wrinkled geography, and that imposes restraints on design features that affect safety.

I could suggest that we lose some signage that seems strategically placed to threaten anyone making use of natural escape avenues. Wouldn't cost much.


What would happen if we all left for Aussie (give it a few years...) and you put 4 million Brits** in NZ? Due to the collaboration factor, I believe that there would be fewer accidents here if that happened.

Firstly, we'd all eventually learn to drive like Aussies. Corners would frighten us.

Secondly, the 4 million Brits would quite possibly learn to drive like Kiwis. We're essentially culturally similar, and like I said, the biggest difference is roading design.

[GingerMidget]

Wellington drivers. Freakin sweet baby jesus. Given how much it rains here, you'd think they would know how to drive in it?!

Apparently not.

I know my stopping distances in the wet and dry and various speeds, due to my dad making sure I could do all of that before sitting my restricted. This is in both my car and ute, but how many other people get that kind of training? I'm betting its two fifths of fuck all.

Do I speed? yes. , but I feel confident in my abilities. Especially on an empty road with high visbility :laugh: Or around tight twisty ones with zero corner visibilty :laugh:

[Clockwork]

.....
My wife got a failed to stop ticket at a shit-house designed junction close to where we live. She had been driving the road very regularly for 5 years and she had never noticed it was actually a Stop sign, probably as it's on a 2 foot pole for some reason. She is honestly one of the best and safest drivers I have ever been driven by, but she had been making this mistake, unconsciously [and apparently safely], for years.

....

This just illustrates my point about too many intersections having Stop requirements where it is just not needed.

[chasio]

This just illustrates my point about too many intersections having Stop requirements where it is just not needed.

She had been negotiating the junction successfully, it is true. I'm sure much of the time she actually did stop simply because she needed to: it's pretty busy up there. And yet I have had to take evasive action on numerous occasions at that very same junction because of folks who failed to stop when they should have done. So I'm not convinced simply because she never hit anything, that the 'Stop' is unnecessary. Even if I had not had that experience, the angles of vision (you have to look back over your shoulder to ensure the road is truly clear) and complexity of the junction make a Stop at that point seem entirely reasonable to me.

Heck, in the early days of living around here I had to sprint out of the way (when crossing on foot) as someone blew through the stop sign at around 40kmh. I was crossing at a pedestrian island and there was no way in hell the driver could have known I would be there given their approach speed, and vice versa: they were approaching from behind my back and the road design means the pedestrian island (where I was crossing in broad daylight) is invisible until you're nearly on top of it. My point with this is that not all hazards are other vehicles, and that is all the driver had allowed for. But that stop sign caters for unsighted pedestrians, as well.

[FJRider]

It never ceases to amaze me, how often the "not stopping for STOP signs" is seen to be not that big an issue.

UNTILL ...they are the victim ...

[Clockwork]

Hey I agree, it should be a big deal. But the way they throw them around these with days is part of the problem, their currency is becoming devalued.

Drivers who fail to look at Stop intersections also fail to look at Give Way intersections. The results are the same. Its not the intersection that's the problem!

[davebullet]

You spend approx half an hour with a license tester then your good for the next 50 off years until retesting commences at 75.

In that time I will forget the road code, road rules, pick up bad habits, never have to face the gruesomeness of a nasty crash etc...

Instead of the above, the authorities reduce speed limits, put up wire rope barriers, more traffic lights, stupid red light turning arrows etc...

We need to up everyones game by ongoing driver training and re-assessment. Why not relicense everyone every 5 years with a defensive driving course and other similar proof of learning / skills?

NZers think driving is a right when it should be a privilege.

[rastuscat]

Changing our attitudes and changing the way we ride is harder because we actually have to do something, but it means we have more control of the outcome, and then the only thing getting tenderly washed is our bike.

You've earned a Rastuscat hug. Come over here you widdle darling...........:love:

I would +1 this, but it epitomises the several hundred posts I've been writing for several months now. +1 doesn't cut it.

Own the problem, and you own the solution. Hand the problem to someone else (blame the road, blame others) and you give the solution aay as well.

Yes, often it's external factors which cause the crash, but riding defensively can often mitigate those factors.

Don't know how to multi quote, but Ocean1 is also on the money.

The dissapointing thing is that we're unlikely to ever see data collected for anything other than justification of transport policy decisions. The difference in collection methods alone would corrupt the model beyond anything useful.

Our data collection is poor, as it's done for several reasons by people who have various motivations and degrees of enthusiasm. That's the real world. I disagree that it's the collectors who are totally to blame, however. Blame those who look at the figures and assume they are correct and who write policy based on them.

Donuts.

[Tink]

So then it's your fault if some drunk idiot drives through a red light at 100kmh and wipes you out as you're riding through a green light at 50kmh. Contrary to what Katman will tell you, not all SMIDSY's are the fault of the rider.

Yup I should have looked and listened better! Car or bike our awareness of other traffic / peds. / animals / hazards needs to improve.

[p.dath]

A common complaint here is that other road users are dickheads and put us in danger....

I love your post Shrub. Another reason to consider avoiding making the licencing process to onerous, is that if you lift the level required to get a licence too high, then you will eventually increase the number of people who can't be bothered going to all the trouble, and then simply drive with no licence.

I would prefer the licencing process to involve more supervised driving time, and ideally I would prefer that was done by someone with some professional driving experience.

I guess the trick is to strike a balance where the process is cheap and easy enough that people are still prepared to go through the process - and get the best level of instruction that fits that criteria, and simple giving up and deciding that driving unlicensed in easier - which would be a far worse out come for everyone on the roads.


I've been speaking with a young driver about the defensive driving course lately. They were interested in doing it solely because it reduced the time to get their full licence by 6 months. But alas after the recent law changes, because of their age, it means that it will no longer reduce that time.
So now they see no point in doing the course at all. I've tried to explain how they teach you about being a safer road user, about how they are currently in the most dangerous period of their driving lifetime, and about some of the things they teach like the three safety zones.
You see, they don't think they are going to have an accident. Their is no licence incentive. So why bother paying extra money for a course that teaches you skills that you don't think you are going to need.

[Gianz]

It's hilarious in a sense, over here you put your indicator on and often some small minded prick will try and close the gap you're aiming for. In Europe, by and large, the driver in the same situation just eases off a little. Hey, we're still all moving in the right direction...


that is something that pisses me off so much, next time I'll install some spears coming out of my wheels!

Regarding to blaming the roads, I noticed that Italy and New Zealand have similar car ownership rates and deaths per capita. Still, Italian roads are waaaaay worse then kiwi ones, way more overcrowded and people speed easily up to 200km/h anytime. Most of Italy is mountainous and the roads were first designed by the Romans 2000 years ago. On top of that in the north is often very foggy (2m visibility sometimes) and it snows for real.

just a comparison

[PeeJay]

I've :
Never been to a crash at a Stop sign where the offending car had stopped- then driven into the car that had the right of way

Never been to a crash at a Give Way controlled intersection where the offending driver had driven through it with caution instead of blasting straight through

Never been to a crash where somebody making a right turn onto a side street hit the car rolling up to the intersection on ITS incorrect side of the road.

Funny dat...

So it wasnt you who attended the crash where lady stopped at the stop sign (I watched her as she stopped and looked both ways) then proceeded to drive into the side of my truck. Comment from officer attending "happens all the time" slight exaggeration for effect I'm sure.
And it wasnt you who helped my mate into an ambulance after a retard stopped at a stop sign and then proceeded to clean him and his bike up.

Both said the way was clear

funny dat NOT