Different tyres and tyre profiles/shapes? (Pilot Power 2CTs from BT016s)

[Milts]

What difference to tyre profiles make to handling, and what do I need to be aware of?

I've just had a Pilot Power 2CT put on the front of my street triple. In the past I've had BT016s and loved them, but finances mean no track time this summer which has me leaning towards more road focussed tyres. They still need to be able to handle weekend rides and maybe the odd trackday though...

I noticed straight away the shape of the 2CTs is very different. They seem to have a higher profile/steeper dropoff: the same amount of steering makes the bike drop over significantly more. The first few corners I felt I was going to fall flat on my side it was so different to other tyres I've had. What difference does this make to how I have to ride the bike? How is the grip at different lean angles affected? I don't want to find out the hard way that I can't lean over as far or that I have to change my riding style...

Anyone else used these tyres, or have any comments as to what actions one should take when chaning tyre types, or pros and cons of 'steep dropoff' vs 'gradual dropoff'?

[Blackbird]

There's more crap spouted about tyres than anything else save oils! :laugh: Tyre design would fill book after book but I've had 3 different types of tyre on my Street Triple so I'll give you my thoughts if it helps with perspective.

I started with Dunlop Qualifiers which have a high crown and tend to tip in rather than roll in. I suppose that's a useful characteristic of sport tyres with a track bias. I didn't like the feel on the road but I got used to it. I only got 6000 km from them and a fair bit of that was running the bike in. They'd lost their shape by 4000 km and I wasn't happy with the wet weather handling in cooler weather.

I then went to Avon Storm 2's (sport touring) as I'd used them on my Blackbird with good success. They roll in on bends and felt far more forgiving on the Triple. The grip in all conditions exceeded my abilities and they were outstanding in the wet. They lasted for approximately 10000 km and kept their shape really well. I'd have happily replaced them but for a big price hike.

A pair of Pilot Road 3 (sport touring 2CT technology) were available at a sharp price so I went for them. They're slightly slower to turn in than the Avons, but not annoyingly so. Roadholding in all conditions is excellent and even better than the Avons in the wet. I think they'll last longer than the Avons too.

It's really a case of getting a tyre which suits your current fitness for purpose.

The only thing I don't like doing is mixing front and rear tyre profiles/makes. Depending on how severe the differences are, it can have an adverse effect on changing line when leaned over, much in the way that a misaligned wheel would.

If you're interested, there are more details with photos on my Street Triple Tyre experiences so far here:

http://geoffjames.blogspot.co.nz/2010/06/tyre-performance-in-real-world.html

http://geoffjames.blogspot.co.nz/2011/08/new-tyres-difficult-replacement-choices.html

http://geoffjames.blogspot.co.nz/2012/01/michelin-pilot-road-3-tyres-progress.html

Addendum: I rode a friend's Daytona 675 with Pirelli Supercorsas fitted. That definitely wanted to fall into corners as befits a near-race bike on the road. However, that wasn't what bothered me most. The conditions when I rode it were cool and damp and the tyre grip felt quite vague. I wondered whether I simply couldn't get them hot enough in the conditions. Sport-touring tyres may well provide more grip in those conditions for normal road riding.

[GrayWolf]

What difference to tyre profiles make to handling, and what do I need to be aware of?

I've just had a Pilot Power 2CT put on the front of my street triple. In the past I've had BT016s and loved them, but finances mean no track time this summer which has me leaning towards more road focussed tyres. They still need to be able to handle weekend rides and maybe the odd trackday though...

I noticed straight away the shape of the 2CTs is very different. They seem to have a higher profile/steeper dropoff: the same amount of steering makes the bike drop over significantly more. The first few corners I felt I was going to fall flat on my side it was so different to other tyres I've had. What difference does this make to how I have to ride the bike? How is the grip at different lean angles affected? I don't want to find out the hard way that I can't lean over as far or that I have to change my riding style...

Anyone else used these tyres, or have any comments as to what actions one should take when chaning tyre types, or pros and cons of 'steep dropoff' vs 'gradual dropoff'?


My bikes are all 'porkers' 240kg and upwards. Hard on tyres anyway due to said weight. That will have an impact on your tyre choice from the start.
FJ1200.... long low bike, so has a tendancy to run wide on bends and a noticeable tendency to stand up if any braking was applied in corners,,, so tyres that 'fell in' on the front were a good asset. Downside was the weight ripped them to bits under braking (old style suspension with modern technology tyres).
The ZZR is the opposite,, I have used Diablo's on it as the local dealer has a good price on em. They wear fast, start to go 'off' after about 2/3 of the tread life, which tended to make it harder to put into a corner, newly scrubbed in tyres resulted in as much as a 15-20kph difference on fast bends. I ended up running a sport touring tyre on the rear (Bridgestone) and a Pirelli on the front for the grip. The choice for the B/stone is that the bike weighs 240kg and it has a stronger carcass so isnt as liable to distortion and 'flex' when cornering 'hard' or riding the local 'tyre killer' hill I travel every day.
The MT I am going to all Bridgestone sport tourer's as it gives the stronger carcass for load bearing, however the advice I have been given is that I can run the stickier (next model down) compound in summer as the tyre will reach working temperature, and; to run the full sport tourer compound on the front in Winter as it wont be as vague due to the lower heat levels it will reach....

Probably the worst mixture you could use would be a mix of steeper profle and the older style flatter profile tyres, especially if the flatter profile is on the front wheel.

[Ocean1]

There's more crap spouted about tyres than anything else save oils! :laugh: Tyre design would fill book after book but I've had 3 different types of tyre on my Street Triple so I'll give you my thoughts if it helps with perspective.

I've used all of those on three different Buells, and stunningly I agree with pretty much everything you say about them...


The only thing I don't like doing is mixing front and rear tyre profiles/makes. Depending on how severe the differences are, it can have an adverse effect on changing line when leaned over, much in the way that a misaligned wheel would.

The exception being Pilot Power 2CT front / Pilot Road 2CT rear for both XT's, both similar profiles anyway. I have no tolerance for anything but the most predictable front I can get, wet or dry, the back just Ideally lasts the same as the front, and XB's are fookin' hard on back tyres.

[Milts]

Thanks for the awesome responses. I guess it does come down to personal preference, but it's hard to try a large number of tyres in a short space of time without spending a fortune.

At the moment I have a power 2ct on the front but a power pure on the rear - had a puncture a while ago and was considering going with the pure for both once the front needed replacing as well, but it's wearing too fast hence the 2ct option. I don't think Motorad here stock Avons, unfortunately - I loved the 016s though and the 2ct seems awesome so far. Took a long time to scrub in, but it's looking good.

I'm getting more confident with the faster turn in now, it was just a surprise at first. I guess I was just worried that the different shape might be lacking in traction when leaned over further, but that doesn't seem to be the case so far. Hopefully I don't find out the hard way, but it sounds it hasn't been a problem for anyone else which is encoraging.

[Ocean1]

I guess I was just worried that the different shape might be lacking in traction when leaned over further, but that doesn't seem to be the case so far.

Apart from the fact that there's more surface area down on the less rounded shape when you're at high angles I think traction is more about compound. The reasons behind that has the best scientists in the world fukt, so I'm not likely to contribute much to the discussion.

[pzkpfw]

Just got a new set of tyres and had that same "wow, woah!, this tips in so easily" feeling.

But my old rear was so squared off from commuting that I think a lot of the difference isn't so much the tyre profile but just that the new ones are, well, new.

So I think it can be misleading. (The profile of your old tyres isn't what it was when they were new, so it's not apples-with-apples.)

[pritch]

Mixing various Michelin models was a bit more fraught than with most makes. Their "sports" tyres had a sharper profile than their racing or touring tyres. There was buyer psychology at work there...

That was maybe three years ago, I haven't seen any more recent info.

[cheshirecat]

Timely thread. Got a Dunlop qual on the front and yes even now when used to its 'drop in' don't reallly like it for road use. Replacing with a cheap 2ct so the change will be interesting. Have been running on Conti RR2s but not sure about them. Had the rear drifting out sometimes when I thought it wouldn't but never sure if it's been the road surface or tyre.

[Milts]

I have to say, in between the BT06s and the CTs I hade some conti sport attacks - never liked them. Not bad but not exactly confidence inspiring and never seemed to warm up properly. That said, I've never used them on the track.

I think there's a lot of truth in that it feels more different than it is because your old tyres were old and mishapen, but really interested to hear what others think of the 2cts. I have to say I'm liking them more and more as time goes by.

[mossy1200]

I had a matching set of 2cts on bmwr1200s and they were magic.Profill and traction on extreme lean angle was great.I got same ks as the factory powers that were on the bike when new but the tire wore more even than the single compound so they still tip in good even when near end of life.

[jrandom]

Pirelli Supercorsas... cool and damp and the tyre grip felt quite vague. I wondered whether I simply couldn't get them hot enough in the conditions. Sport-touring tyres may well provide more grip in those conditions for normal road riding.

Yep. Super Corsas are useless in the wet or when not warmed up. You will bin if you don't tiptoe around.

I'm a big fan of PPs. The turn-in characteristics and rear traction when exiting corners are noteworthy. The 190/55 profile rear is particularly sweet in that respect but squares off too quick if you're always having to tootle up and down motorways.

Lot of different tyres have come out over the last few years but Pilot Power 2CTs still seem to be at the top of the heap for a good road-riding compromise.

Dunno about the Pilot Road 3s. The PR2s offered inferior grip, a shallow profile and only about 30% more mileage than PPs - not worth it. A lot of guys say Pilot Roads are fine, but all those guys are slow, so you want to take the claim with a grain of salt. Can't imagine PR3s being as good as Pilot Powers, but perhaps they're a step up from PR2s.

Not likely to find out any time soon with my current 16" and 19" wire wheels, anyway.

[ckai]

Addendum: I rode a friend's Daytona 675 with Pirelli Supercorsas fitted. That definitely wanted to fall into corners as befits a near-race bike on the road. However, that wasn't what bothered me most. The conditions when I rode it were cool and damp and the tyre grip felt quite vague. I wondered whether I simply couldn't get them hot enough in the conditions. Sport-touring tyres may well provide more grip in those conditions for normal road riding.


Yep. Super Corsas are useless in the wet or when not warmed up. You will bin if you don't tiptoe around.


God are they what! I didn't bother wapping them out on my first Daytona and they were shocking, even though I rode like a nana on prozac. Had the PP 2ct and loved them and now have Pures on this one. Much higher crown than the PP.


I'm getting more confident with the faster turn in now, it was just a surprise at first. I guess I was just worried that the different shape might be lacking in traction when leaned over further, but that doesn't seem to be the case so far. Hopefully I don't find out the hard way, but it sounds it hasn't been a problem for anyone else which is encoraging.

As has been said, you actually have more contact patch the further you lean the bike (apart from when you go over the edge). It's actually quite a substantial difference. But the problem is suspension don't play nice unless it's working up and down and since suspension's job is tryin to keep the tyre on the road, and it is less effective on a sideways angle, you have "less" traction. I say "less" because if you were on a corner that was perfectly smooth with out the rider shagging up the bike, it would actually have more traction since the suspension wouldn't be needed. In very basic terms of course :)

But tyres are very much matched to riding style. The way I ride now, especially how I turn into a corner, I need a tyre that "falls in" so I look for a reasonably high crown. Problem is, that soon goes if your wife rides the bike all the time on the friggin' highway! :crazy:

[BoristheBiter]

What difference to tyre profiles make to handling, and what do I need to be aware of?

I've just had a Pilot Power 2CT put on the front of my street triple. In the past I've had BT016s and loved them, but finances mean no track time this summer which has me leaning towards more road focussed tyres. They still need to be able to handle weekend rides and maybe the odd trackday though...

I noticed straight away the shape of the 2CTs is very different. They seem to have a higher profile/steeper dropoff: the same amount of steering makes the bike drop over significantly more. The first few corners I felt I was going to fall flat on my side it was so different to other tyres I've had. What difference does this make to how I have to ride the bike? How is the grip at different lean angles affected? I don't want to find out the hard way that I can't lean over as far or that I have to change my riding style...

Anyone else used these tyres, or have any comments as to what actions one should take when chaning tyre types, or pros and cons of 'steep dropoff' vs 'gradual dropoff'?

I stated with the BT016 as they come standard on the gixxer. I went through two sets the I was told about the pilot pure so I change to them.

10km down the road i dropped it, not the tires fault all mine, they just turned so quickly and down I went. wet road new tyres:facepalm:
After that i lost confidence in them as not matter what i did they just didn't seem to sit well. I thought it was me but found there were a lot of people having the same problems. It seemed they are very pressure sensitive, but I will never have them on my bike again, IMO they are shit.

I have now gone back to the BT016 and it will take some doing to get me to change. I know how they handle and they give excellent feed back.

My thoughts are choose reliability over wear. if i want a long lasting tyre I'll buy a car.

[Milts]

I have now gone back to the BT016 and it will take some doing to get me to change. I know how they handle and they give excellent feed back.

My thoughts are choose reliability over wear. if i want a long lasting tyre I'll buy a car.

Completely with you. Unfortunately my local bike shop doesn't tend to stock bridgestones any more as they have changed suppliers, so it's significantly cheaper to get 2CTs or Power Pures. I have to say the more I get used to the 2cts the more I like them, no grip issues after a day in the wairarapa and another day of riding around pauatahanui inlet - and I think I'm leaning the bike further than I have in the past. Some of that is probably down to an extra 10,000km of experience since I last had nice tyres (the 016s) on there, but even so...

[AllanB]

I have also noticed that despite being the same spec - 120 width - different tyres vary from a actual fitted width of 125 to 110 mm.