Post-Classic rules on engine swapping

[cahoots]

Pre 89 class racing, is it legal to put say a cbr 400 motor into a fzr 400 frame ? (All components are pre 89)

[Kickaha]

Pre 89 class racing, is it legal to put say a cbr 400 motor into a fzr 400 frame ? (All components are pre 89)

I would have thought you would have to prove that it had been done "back in the day"

[Grumph]

Don't see why not...it could have been done in the period. I know of a 500 Kawa motor in an FZR chassis done in period.

That said, the opposite ie, Yamaha motor in CBR frame would have been more likely as there were a LOT of CBR400's with dropped valves around the place.....

[mossy1200]

http://www.nzpostclassics.org.nz/index.php?pr=NZPCRA_Rules

motor transplants ok as long as fit rules

fzr400 with fzr 600 motor etc

Forks are a touchy topic and swingarm mods
as long as your carby(period or replica of period), running pre89 motor in a pre89 frame and the forks and swingarm match the frame should be ok.Eg fzr frame usd zxr400 forks wouldnt be accepted even if they are pre89.

[codgyoleracer]

http://www.nzpostclassics.org.nz/index.php?pr=NZPCRA_Rules

motor transplants ok as long as fit rules

fzr400 with fzr 600 motor etc

Forks are a touchy topic and swingarm mods
as long as your carby(period or replica of period), running pre89 motor in a pre89 frame and the forks and swingarm match the frame should be ok.Eg fzr frame usd zxr400 forks wouldnt be accepted even if they are pre89.


As Mossey says, where there are specific rules about specific components (that must match the oiginal bike E.G USD forks, Injection etc), then thats where you would need to be carefull.
I have never seen a rule stating :if you could do it in the day then you can do it now", as i suspect that one could be streeeeetched. Never-the-less, as ageneral guidline IMO its mostly rings true.
GW

[Billy]

As Mossey says, where there are specific rules about specific components (that must match the oiginal bike E.G USD forks, Injection etc), then thats where you would need to be carefull.
I have never seen a rule stating :if you could do it in the day then you can do it now", as i suspect that one could be streeeeetched. Never-the-less, as ageneral guidline IMO its mostly rings true.
GW

Try me !!!!!

[cahoots]

So interpretation. If you kept the componentry true to the frame, and only changed the engine (even to a different breed), that would be okay?
Does anyone know if there is a section in rules dealing specifically with engine swapping?
ps Well done in the weekend Glen

[malcy25]

So interpretation. If you kept the componentry true to the frame, and only changed the engine (even to a different breed), that would be okay?
Does anyone know if there is a section in rules dealing specifically with engine swapping?
ps Well done in the weekend Glen

Chapter 25 on the MNZ website. Have a really good read, it should explain most things.

[Grumph]

In the pre 89 period, F3 and F2 were pretty much open GP style classes. Stay under the engine capacity rules and you were OK.

i saw a number of specials using the Kawa 500 motor in various frames, singles were put into a wide variety of chassis.
One thing which will get attention is making your CBR a 450...up to F2 you go sir...Unless it's already a 600 CBR ? In which case I know of a 600/400 frame hybrid done in period in NZ.

There is no specific set of rules relating to engine swaps - read Motorcycles Technical in the MNZ rules, build a soundly engineered bike which looks correct for the period and I'd doubt if you'll have any problems.

I'd love to know what weird set of circumstances got you a CBR motor and an FZR frame....

[codgyoleracer]

Chapter 25 on the MNZ website. Have a really good read, it should explain most things.

Yip i agree, rules on wheels are quite clear.

[codgyoleracer]

So interpretation. If you kept the componentry true to the frame, and only changed the engine (even to a different breed), that would be okay?
Does anyone know if there is a section in rules dealing specifically with engine swapping?
ps Well done in the weekend Glen


Yeah, had a great time at Paeroa. Download the rules at MNZ or NZPCRA, they ate overall pretty brief aye.
Good to hear of another postie on the way !
GW

[codgyoleracer]

In the pre 89 period, F3 and F2 were pretty much open GP style classes. Stay under the engine capacity rules and you were OK.

i saw a number of specials using the Kawa 500 motor in various frames, singles were put into a wide variety of chassis.
One thing which will get attention is making your CBR a 450...up to F2 you go sir...Unless it's already a 600 CBR ? In which case I know of a 600/400 frame hybrid done in period in NZ.

There is no specific set of rules relating to engine swaps - read Motorcycles Technical in the MNZ rules, build a soundly engineered bike which looks correct for the period and I'd doubt if you'll have any problems.

I'd love to know what weird set of circumstances got you a CBR motor and an FZR frame....


Dont get me startted on the 450's must be in F2 rule............, one of the dafter ones that......

[worm13]

Dont get me startted on the 450's must be in F2 rule............, one of the dafter ones that......

Dont you get me started mr Williams!! hahaha where alse they gonna go? the rules have been based around that period.... yes there were a few people running 450s in f3 but that wasnt written in the rule book so call it what ya want. I asked the question if I could change my frame to a frame style what you run with your SV, if you look back that sorta thing was done in the day but not with a zxr and even if I keep the geo to the same spec etc etc it still cant be done :( so for the weight saving thing no more pies for me but was worth asking about.

[malcy25]

I asked the question if I could change my frame to a frame style what you run with your SV, if you look back that sorta thing was done in the day but not with a zxr and even if I keep the geo to the same spec etc etc it still cant be done

Chapter 25 covers this. Frames (along with swing arms, major engine castings, carbs, forks, brakes) are a major component and the the items which date the bike. Essentially these bits must be from the period, or a prior period. This means no making a frame of any design to carry an old motor. If you do manufacturer or have created from scratch any of the major components, they have to be replicas of what was available within the period and proof that it existed in the period is with the rider. The age of the most modern major component determines what age group you run in. Eg 1982 GSX1100 with 1986 GSXR1100 forks is a pre 89 bike.

When the rules say replica, this means exact copy replica, not just of the same technology. This means that if you wanted to use a tube frame replacing an alloy one, and you are going to make it, you have to copy one that had been done within the period and not just one you made to a desiogn you thought up last week.

Another example of how people misinterpret the rules is if you want to fit 4 pot Brembos on your pre 89 bike, That's cool. It just can't be ANY four pot Brembo, but one that was available before Dec 31st 1989.

HTH

[worm13]

I knew I was pushing my luck, looking a Kevin's mac the idea poped into my head.. very little thought process went into... in fact the only thought was.... that would be cool. Rules a clear imo you only question how its worded if your trying to push the boundries, I got a little upset after weighing my bike at 159kgs I was hoping a whole heap less, on paper at the moe im at 152kgs :)

[Grumph]

Ha - period F3 weights make me laugh...Tony McMurdo was quite upset when I told him my 500 Kawa weighed 142kg part wet...The pink special with VFR frame was over 150.
He was never happy with the weights of the 400 fours when he changed to those, so that's why he built a carbon fiber chassis for the 600....I suppose that's sitting in someones shed still.

[worm13]

mate I was stunned, even put it on another set of scales even and still the same result was hoping mid 130s im gonna be lucky to get it down to 148kgs

[codgyoleracer]

Chapter 25 covers this. Frames (along with swing arms, major engine castings, carbs, forks, brakes) are a major component and the the items which date the bike. Essentially these bits must be from the period, or a prior period. This means no making a frame of any design to carry an old motor. If you do manufacturer or have created from scratch any of the major components, they have to be replicas of what was available within the period and proof that it existed in the period is with the rider. The age of the most modern major component determines what age group you run in. Eg 1982 GSX1100 with 1986 GSXR1100 forks is a pre 89 bike.

When the rules say replica, this means exact copy replica, not just of the same technology. This means that if you wanted to use a tube frame replacing an alloy one, and you are going to make it, you have to copy one that had been done within the period and not just one you made to a desiogn you thought up last week.

Another example of how people misinterpret the rules is if you want to fit 4 pot Brembos on your pre 89 bike, That's cool. It just can't be ANY four pot Brembo, but one that was available before Dec 31st 1989.

HTH


I suppose the only issue with the word "replicas" Al , is the not only the "Look" as in shape & dimensions, but the materials as well (which is where it gets all a bit foggy)

On the brakes you side of things - a good example is my Bimota it has Brembo's stock (they are the black equal piston sized items), - however the later unequal piston (diff colour too) whilst "very similar", were not from the period so its a no go area aye.

GW

[nodrog]

so something like this would be eligable to run in pre '89? and if it was, would it have to run with the seniors?

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=448186877

[Billy]

so something like this would be eligable to run in pre '89? and if it was, would it have to run with the seniors?

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=448186877

Nope,The first thing I notice is the 2000 model RS250 Bodywork which doesnt fit the era,Change that though and theres nothing else that is obvious that would make it illegal,Still unless you actually build something like that,Theres no way you can know all the major components fit the era

[nodrog]

Nope,The first thing I notice is the 2000 model RS250 Bodywork which doesnt fit the era,Change that though and theres nothing else that is obvious that would make it illegal,Still unless you actually build something like that,Theres no way you can know all the major components fit the era

I may be blind, but this is all all can see regarding fairings,

"25.2.6 Fairing
Fairing and streamlining is permitted if they are of the type and style in keeping with the period of competition."
I would have thought that a fibreglass full fairing was the style of the period, regardless of shape? and there is no mention of bodywork under major components? or am i just interpreting it all wrong?


"25.2.2 Major Components
Major components are: Frame (including Swingarm), Engine and Gearbox castings, carburetors, Brakes (excluding front and rear master cylinders which are open) and forks. These are to be manufactured between Jan 1st 1963 and December 31st 1989. Major components manufactured in any country shall be acceptable. The onus of proof of eligibility shall rest wholly upon the rider or entrant of the machine.
Modifications to major components are allowed, providing that such modifications are visually indistinguishable from modifications proven to have been used during this period. The onus of proof rests with the entrant or rider of the machine."

[Billy]

I may be blind, but this is all all can see regarding fairings,

"25.2.6 Fairing
Fairing and streamlining is permitted if they are of the type and style in keeping with the period of competition."
I would have thought that a fibreglass full fairing was the style of the period, regardless of shape? and there is no mention of bodywork under major components? or am i just interpreting it all wrong?


"25.2.2 Major Components
Major components are: Frame (including Swingarm), Engine and Gearbox castings, carburetors, Brakes (excluding front and rear master cylinders which are open) and forks. These are to be manufactured between Jan 1st 1963 and December 31st 1989. Major components manufactured in any country shall be acceptable. The onus of proof of eligibility shall rest wholly upon the rider or entrant of the machine.
Modifications to major components are allowed, providing that such modifications are visually indistinguishable from modifications proven to have been used during this period. The onus of proof rests with the entrant or rider of the machine."

Nope,It has to fit the era,IE if it was NF5 bodywork (89-92) it would be OK,Theres definitely room for improvement with the Postie rules,But if your unsure you can always call either the post classic association to check,Or us here at MNZ,Ignorance is NOT an excuse for an illegal machine no matter what the class is

[MOTOXXX]

Dont get me startted on the 450's must be in F2 rule............, one of the dafter ones that......

i have to agree.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Pre 89 class racing, is it legal to put say a cbr 400 motor into a fzr 400 frame ? (All components are pre 89)

an early fireblade (900) will go in there I'm told

[Drew]

Only once you chop the front engine mount hangers off the frame and widen them.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Only once you chop the front engine mount hangers off the frame and widen them.

that is the basis of fitting a VFR750 motor into a VFR400 NC30 too, it appears. Sounds like fun: spend a lot of time effort energy and money to get something that goes as well as a bone stock CBR600

[steveyb]

I may be blind, but this is all all can see regarding fairings,

"25.2.6 Fairing
Fairing and streamlining is permitted if they are of the type and style in keeping with the period of competition."
I would have thought that a fibreglass full fairing was the style of the period, regardless of shape? and there is no mention of bodywork under major components? or am i just interpreting it all wrong?


"25.2.2 Major Components
Major components are: Frame (including Swingarm), Engine and Gearbox castings, carburetors, Brakes (excluding front and rear master cylinders which are open) and forks. These are to be manufactured between Jan 1st 1963 and December 31st 1989. Major components manufactured in any country shall be acceptable. The onus of proof of eligibility shall rest wholly upon the rider or entrant of the machine.
Modifications to major components are allowed, providing that such modifications are visually indistinguishable from modifications proven to have been used during this period. The onus of proof rests with the entrant or rider of the machine."

Call me a whinger if you like, plenty have, but what is the point in complaining or splitting hairs about fairing shape for Post Classic bikes?
If one wants to race a Post Classic bike, race a Post Classic bike that fits the period. If one does not, go race a modern bike.
Questioning the shape of fairings is just being petulant for no good reason.
Sure, full fairings were period, that is defined in the word TYPE. The shape is defined in the word STYLE. NXA model RS250 fairings are not period for Post Classic. '89 model MC18 NSR fairings would be OK, but MC21 are later and different shape slightly, so might slide by, but do not meet the spirit of the rule and at the end of the day that is the main part of the whole Post Classic thing, the SPIRIT of the rule.

I would hazard a guess that the engine in that bike is later than '89 also, at a guess.

As you were.....

[worm13]

My understanding is it has to retain the same profile of the bike and the changes arent to advanced ie making your bike look like 06 zx6 when really its a 89 zxr400 and also im currently changing my body work and have been keeping the NZPCRA in the loop with each step of the way (and its not done thru dad either) and at this point they are very happy with it air vents on the side of the bike is in the same place and looks the same its really only 50mm wider at the widest point of the fairing. looks primo by the way and all will be shown in good time :)

[quickbuck]

SPIRIT of the rule.

I would hazard a guess that the engine in that bike is later than '89 also, at a guess.


Sorry, you guess wrong Steve.
The XR600RG came out in 1986 did it not?
C=1983
D=1984
F=1985
G=1986
H=1987
K=1988
L=1989
M=1990
N=1991/2
P=1993
R=1994
S=1995
T=1996
V=1997
W=1998
X=1999
Y=2000


Or that's how I remembered it when I was a lad.....
As you were ;)

[worm13]

Or that's how I remembered it when I was a lad.....
As you were ;)

that was a very long time ago tho haha

[nodrog]

Call me a whinger if you like, plenty have, but what is the point in complaining or splitting hairs about fairing shape for Post Classic bikes?
If one wants to race a Post Classic bike, race a Post Classic bike that fits the period. If one does not, go race a modern bike.
Questioning the shape of fairings is just being petulant for no good reason.
Sure, full fairings were period, that is defined in the word TYPE. The shape is defined in the word STYLE. NXA model RS250 fairings are not period for Post Classic. '89 model MC18 NSR fairings would be OK, but MC21 are later and different shape slightly, so might slide by, but do not meet the spirit of the rule and at the end of the day that is the main part of the whole Post Classic thing, the SPIRIT of the rule.

I would hazard a guess that the engine in that bike is later than '89 also, at a guess.

As you were.....

Well fuck me in the ear for asking a question and trying to understand these well worded rules.

I was only asking because I was told by some of the postie guys that bodywork was irrelevant.

Sorry.

[Str8 Jacket]

Well fuck me in the ear for asking a question and trying to understand these well worded rules.

I was only asking because I was told by some of the postie guys that bodywork was irrelevant.

Sorry.

Look you sorry sack of shit, you're not helping.

Anyway I agree that postie bike should LOOK like bike of that era...... :shake:

[sugilite]

Well, I learned from this thread there are some hard and fast rules in classic racing if you actually read and understand them :pinch: I'm one of those that got "any" 4 piston Brembos, mainly because I saw other bikes with them and thought that was ok. Now I know I need these older black ones that seem in my initial research to have only appeared on fairly exotic machines like Ducati 851's, 888's and Bimotas. I'll be bloody lucky to find a set of those. Shit I'm struggling to even find out when the calipers I did buy were 1st manufactured! I'm pissed at myself because I spent a lot of dosh getting the calipers I did, and spent even more than the calipers were worth having adapter plates made. Yeah, it's my on fault, The opinion I'm forming is the classic scene seems to have some hard and fast rules along side some massive grey area rules. Kudos to those that have exploited said grey areas, seeing as I'm just a dumb cunt who can not even read the concisely written rules properly. :facepalm:
While I'm here, I fully intend to use a 90 model H2 swing arm, as H2's were technically manufactured in 89. Besides, the H1 and H2 frames are the same as each other. To any of those that know better, feel free to point out the error of my ways before I go and polish the bloody thing! :mad:
Aha, interesting, just got off the phone to Kawasaki NZ, turns out the swing arm is listed a H1 race kit part, so yay.
Anyone want to buy some Brembo gold line calipers? :pinch:

[lukemillar]

Dont get me startted on the 450's must be in F2 rule............, one of the dafter ones that......

Only if you have a 450! I thought the idea behind the Jr/Sr -> F1, F2 + F3 switch was to reflect the rules of the era?

[neil_cb125t]

Fairings must be completely of the era - shape, taste does not matter, if you run a tail piece that looks like its POST 89 its illegal=your bike is contrary to the rules=if protested against will be disqualified.

I know this because the ZXR400 I have owned/raced in F3 and posties for more than 5 years has only ever had 03 ZX6r fairings on it. For 3 years no one minded.....then when you start smashing everyone that not running a 1000 or bigger, the Post classics "CLAN" start snooping around your garage, don't introduce themselves as they are snooping and then complain that you modern fairings are illegal and your points should be wiped.

This did create a ruling from MNZ (i received a phone call from said organisation) that fairing must be of the era of the class. Funnily enough the end of that season 09 i think my bike took on different fairings for the different classes. I have never returned to PC racing.:weep:

The New F1 F2 F3 rules also will reduce the size of classic pers coming on board - having a larger number of classes with higher restrictions does not increase entrant numbers, smaller feilds = lower quality of racing. There was nothing wrong with 600 up and 600 below classes, if my ZXR could take out 600s, making PC F3 a 400cc limited class has made the class a ZXR and possibly VFR400 dominated class........no other 400 or 250 will be competitive

I less one eyed approach would be to have a 600up, 600below, then a 250 2 stroke PC class. how many PC 2 smokers would turn up if that is all they were racing against. :pinch:

[neil_cb125t]

While I'm here, I fully intend to use a 90 model H2 swing arm, as H2's were technically manufactured in 89. Besides, the H1 and H2 frames are the same as each other. To any of those that know better, feel free to point out the error of my ways before I go and polish the bloody thing! :mad:
Aha, interesting, just got off the phone to Kawasaki NZ, turns out the swing arm is listed a H1 race kit part, so yay.
Anyone want to buy some Brembo gold line calipers? :pinch:

If the H2 swing arm is listed as an H1 race part that doesn't matter - if it was not available until POST 89, its BANNED. The 400s came out H1 and H2, H2 was 90 onwards, same frame as h1 but different swing arms... those swing arms are banned by PC association.

[Kickaha]

If the H2 swing arm is listed as an H1 race part that doesn't matter - if it was not available until POST 89, its BANNED.

Nothing to do with when it was available, it is all about when it was manufactured

[sugilite]

I still think it would of been so much easier to police if they had said "model year" it's nigh on impossible to prove when something was or was not manufactured 23 odd years ago, imho.

[neil_cb125t]

Nothing to do with when it was available, it is all about when it was manufactured

So how do you measure or check when it was manufactured? easier to check when you could buy it/it came onto the market.

[neil_cb125t]

I still think it would of been so much easier to police if they had said "model year" it's nigh on impossible to prove when something was or was not manufactured 23 odd years ago, imho.

what he said

[MOTOXXX]

i cant say im that interested in the F2 posties class tbh. Not much fun competing against 4 other people in a competition.

[steveyb]

Yeah, on the face of it the F2 class might be a bit undersubscribed mighten it as no one would currently really race a 600 as it would not be competitive in PC Senior and does not fit PC Junior.
Maybe more riders on 250GP bikes will come out, but I don't think that there are very many period bikes left that are in racing condition.
I would suggest that riders with 450cc engines lobby the association together to change the rule and put the bikes in F3. Surely there were people who made their engines 450cc back in the day? It was most certainly do-able, there are no "new era" parts needed to do it.
Surely common sense would prevail???? Surely??? No???? :wacko:

Sorry to have been a bit obtuse earlier, but we have actually been through the fairing debate before (via Chap Chap Chappy) and it all got pretty heated at the time and I was over hearing it all again.

I very much personally feel that there is a phillosophy with Post Classic racing and that if one wants to go PC racing then race a bike that is period, period.

See ya's out there.

[lukemillar]

i cant say im that interested in the F2 posties class tbh. Not much fun competing against 4 other people in a competition.

Isn't that what happens now anyway? It's not like there are 20 riders competing for the top spot every month. You'll just end up racing against the same people you raced against last year.

[Kickaha]

So how do you measure or check when it was manufactured? easier to check when you could buy it/it came onto the market.

No idea, but the rules state "manufactured" of course if you do find something that was manufactured prior to the cut off date and the NZPCRA don't like it they'll get the rules changed to ban it anyway

[Billy]

No idea, but the rules state "manufactured" of course if you do find something that was manufactured prior to the cut off date and the NZPCRA don't like it they'll get the rules changed to ban it anyway


Nope,They have to apply to MNZ for a rule change,Just like everybody else.

[Kickaha]

Nope,They have to apply to MNZ for a rule change,Just like everybody else.

I'm well aware of that and they have done so in the past to ban specific models when it could be shown they were manufactured prior to the cut off date

[Grumph]

The class divisions as they are now reflect what was in place in the period pre 89. I'm personally in favour of retaining the 400 fours limit for F3 as it enables other motors to be compeitive as was the case at the time.
For example, I've been approached for advice by a couple of people with 500 Kawa twins which were period race bikes. Against 400 fours they will still be competitive - against developed 450's, not so much...In fact, one said to me he wouldn't come out if the 450's continued to be in the class.

600's...In the SI with very few dedicated pre 89 races, and those mainly on circuits which don't favour outright horsepower, a well ridden 600 can be competitive all right. Kev Orr's 3 years in a row at Wyndham on a 600 proves the point. And if he'd got serious he could well have won the CAMS pre 89 cup open class too. Certainly down here 600's are seen as worthwhile - 3 CBR600's at the pre 89 cup meeting says that.

Appearance....yes, well, taste is a funny thing, the guy who showed up a few years back with a waterbus fitted with a 916 seat thought it looked just gorgeous....he hasn't been back, funny that....

[quickbuck]

Sorry to have been a bit obtuse earlier, but we have actually been through the fairing debate before (via Chap Chap Chappy) and it all got pretty heated at the time and I was over hearing it all again.


Yup, still a bit of a sore point with Chappy.... it seems.
However all said and done Chappy still won the championship, despite all the distractions, Fairing changes, and tyre changes (our choice that one due to budget) between races etc etc.......

At the end of the day, I can see the Postie Associations point of view. Just sad it got messy.

After all it was only when Chappy started winning, and the team looked flash that the protests started to come in....
Not to worry, bygones.

Will be great to see the 23 year old bike back on the track soon, but there is no way it will be a postie bike again ;)

[crazy man]

my 89 zxr going to kick all your ass,s and with my 89 gp usd forks ha ha

http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoserver/18/206921018_full.jpg

[worm13]

my 89 zxr going to kick all your ass,s and with my 89 gp usd forks ha ha

http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoserver/18/206921018_full.jpg

I didnt know you could ride on hopes and dreams :)

[crazy man]

I didnt know you could ride on hopes and dreams :)it just takes one to get me going !!the f3 boys found that out years ago. now whos got some more drink the good stuff

[gatch]

it just takes one to get me going !!the f3 boys found that out years ago. now whos got some more drink the good stuff

Bah ! You just wait till I start racing my stock nc30.

Murder the lot of you I will.

[sugilite]

my 89 zxr going to kick all your ass,s and with my 89 gp usd forks ha ha

http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoserver/18/206921018_full.jpg

While your choice of emoticon colour is admirable, I'm still going to protest your arse, RED has no place on a Kawasaki race bike :bleh:
Everything else looks good though ;)

[crazy man]

Bah ! You just wait till I start racing my stock nc30.

Murder the lot of you I will.bring it on boyo your suspension is already stuffed cause its been played with ha ha

[crazy man]

While your choice of emoticon colour is admirable, I'm still going to protest your arse, RED has no place on a Kawasaki race bike :bleh:
Everything else looks good though ;)come on its only got 150 hp

[worm13]

bring it on boyo your suspension is already stuffed cause its been played with ha ha

Is that beacause its yellow??

[crazy man]

Is that beacause its yellow??l would say yellow man has made a mess of it:ar15:

[sugilite]

come on its only got 150 hp
Paint it all green, and boom bang bing! 160 hp :yes:

[FROSTY]

hey guys I'm just taking this to its logical limit. What reason is there that for example an 88 FZR600 engine couldn't go into a 88FZR400 frame fitted with ZXR400H1 forks and the lightest wheels available for sale in 1988? surely nothing there is illegal. -You would have to provide proff of the age of the parts but given every part is legal what could be done to stop you?

[Drew]

hey guys I'm just taking this to its logical limit. What reason is there that for example an 88 FZR600 engine couldn't go into a 88FZR400 frame fitted with ZXR400H1 forks and the lightest wheels available for sale in 1988? surely nothing there is illegal. -You would have to provide proff of the age of the parts but given every part is legal what could be done to stop you?I've asked this, because the rules are a little bit interprative on the issue. The answer I got was this. The engine conversion is allowed, because it was done to make race bikes in the era, but the fork conversion wasn't. It is therefore not in keeping with the spirit of the class.

[Kickaha]

hey guys I'm just taking this to its logical limit. What reason is there that for example an 88 FZR600 engine couldn't go into a 88FZR400 frame fitted with ZXR400H1 forks and the lightest wheels available for sale in 1988? surely nothing there is illegal. -You would have to provide proff of the age of the parts but given every part is legal what could be done to stop you?

Can't use the forks for a start, you can only use USD forks if they come standard on the bike

[worm13]

hey guys I'm just taking this to its logical limit. What reason is there that for example an 88 FZR600 engine couldn't go into a 88FZR400 frame fitted with ZXR400H1 forks and the lightest wheels available for sale in 1988? surely nothing there is illegal. -You would have to provide proff of the age of the parts but given every part is legal what could be done to stop you?

If you want USD forks put the FZR600 motor in the ZXR400 frame, only way to get the USD's :)

[malcy25]

I've asked this, because the rules are a little bit interprative on the issue. The answer I got was this. The engine conversion is allowed, because it was done to make race bikes in the era, but the fork conversion wasn't. It is therefore not in keeping with the spirit of the class.

There are certain subtle control points built into the rules such as the ZXR/USD fork rule in pre 89, floaters in Pre 82 etc. These have been placed there to:
1) Stop the effect of every smaller Pre 89 bike being fitted with ZXR400 forks (which patently was never the case at the time), or in pre 82 every bike being fitted with RGB500 discs, which again while available was also, never the case.
2) Cost control. It stops the everyone going out and spending a fortune on parts, of which at the end, if everyone gets them, no one has any advantage except the man selling the parts in bulk and making a killing.

With regards to Kickaha's ongoing complaint about RZ350's being classed as Pre 89. I wrote the rule change and still stand behind the thinking. Yes, I believe an RZ was seen as a prototype in Japan in 82 (though it was about May 83 beforeI saw one of the first RZ250's into the country). However, I have yet to see anything which states when they were actually first produced, but I see that as moot anyway, given the technology that model brought to market and the wide and very negative impact it would have on the current pre 82 junior class.

We see very close similarities to the Z1 and the original RD350 Yamaha which were released in late 1972. Given the great leap forward these models had on their closest competitors and the technology they brought to market, when the rules were written the pre 72 age cut was set to exclude them, plus they were mentioned specifically by model name as not being eligible.

At the same time as we lsted the RZ350 as a pre 89 model, we also for clarity listed bikes like the VF750F, GPz900, RG250/500, RZ500 so there would be no doubt around this for future reference. Given the level and number of complaints, I think 99% of the racing population would agree this was the best course of action for the wider good.

If the "RZ350 rule" was over turned in future years, I would immediately start lobbying to have my TZ750 allowed into pre 72 on the basis of the GL750 road bike seen at the Tokyo and Paris shows in 71/72. This would also open the fllod gates for RD350 and Z1's which would piss off almost all pre 72 riders who would pack up and bugger off for good.

As we have it now, we have good alignment with other countries. In fact Aussie recently moved one of their cut off's to align with us after being different for years and having many more bikes.

Having looked at and ridden or raced Postie bikes in 4 countries now, NZ can lay claim to a set of rules which keep our bikes the most representative of the period.

[Kickaha]

With regards to Kickaha's ongoing complaint about RZ350's being classed as Pre 89. I wrote the rule change and still stand behind the thinking. Yes, I believe an RZ was seen as a prototype in Japan in 82 (though it was about May 83 beforeI saw one of the first RZ250's into the country). However, I have yet to see anything which states when they were actually first produced, but I see that as moot anyway, given the technology that model brought to market and the wide and very negative impact it would have on the current pre 82 junior class.

Actually I bought that up more to see if I could get a bite than any other reason :bleh:

The RZ350 was displayed at the Paris motorcycle show in 1982, there was also a link produced at the time this first came up to Yamahas own website stating production on YPVS models had started in 1982, unfortunately the website we had all the info on has since gone

The only technology they had that (possibly) wasn't widely available was the non mechanical powervalve



If the "RZ350 rule" was over turned in future years, I would immediately start lobbying to have my TZ750 allowed into pre 72 on the basis of the GL750 road bike seen at the Tokyo and Paris shows in 71/72. This would also open the fllod gates for RD350 and Z1's which would piss off almost all pre 72 riders who would pack up and bugger off for good.
Lobby all you like a GL750 wasn't a TZ750 although perhaps related but an RZ350 was an RZ350

[sugilite]

Having looked at and ridden or raced Postie bikes in 4 countries now, NZ can lay claim to a set of rules which keep our bikes the most representative of the period.

Thanks for this informative post, very constructive and great to see the thinking behind the rules. :yes:
If I may ask a question please, Do you think it would be easier to police the manufacturers model year designation rather than the current "manufactured in" rules? Has it been considered, and if so, what was the thinking behind not going with that? The reason I'm asking is I have personally found it a mine field trying to work out what I'm able to use and not use and have wasted money doing so. Some of it my own fault, and some because of what I consider to not be my fault. I've got some parts that have been given the ok, then not ok, then ok again!

[FROSTY]

Can't use the forks for a start, you can only use USD forks if they come standard on the bike
I see the logic behind the rule but then my argument is that its a production part readilly available in 1989,
Different from some unobtanium part fitted to a GP racers machine.
incidently this is for interest sake only not because I'm stuck on an idea.

[malcy25]

Thanks for this informative post, very constructive and great to see the thinking behind the rules. :yes:
If I may ask a question please, Do you think it would be easier to police the manufacturers model year designation rather than the current "manufactured in" rules? Has it been considered, and if so, what was the thinking behind not going with that? The reason I'm asking is I have personally found it a mine field trying to work out what I'm able to use and not use and have wasted money doing so. Some of it my own fault, and some because of what I consider to not be my fault. I've got some parts that have been given the ok, then not ok, then ok again!

Short answeer is yes, Aussie does that already and I have made recommendations twice to the NZPCRA suggesting that rule be adopted.
here is the actual wording now in use in Aussie:
16.4.0.5 For the purpose of these rules “Year of manufacture” is defined as the year in
which:
a) For a road based bike the machine or its latest major component was first generally available for sale and delivery to the purchaser,
b) For a race bike the year in which the machine or the latest major component first appeared in open competition.

I would like to see it adopted here also as it does clean it up.

Kick, I knew you were baiting :motu: but a lot of other guys may not have known the background. I dunno, I reckon I know enough to have a shot.... But even if didn't swing it (for my 750)- the same can't be said for Z1's etc.

[malcy25]

ti
I see the logic behind the rule but then my argument is that its a production part readilly available in 1989,
Different from some unobtanium part fitted to a GP racers machine.
incidently this is for interest sake only not because I'm stuck onEs an idea.

Frosty read my prior post (I guess you may not have seen it) which explains most of this. Essentially trying to be reflective of what happened in the period. Ie how many bikes that were not ZXR400's or a factory WSBK or GP special had USD's, but recognising that those examples mentioned above did and were basically the only bikes that did, so let them run. (if that makes sense!!)

[Grumph]

Some interesting comments coming out here...and the reasons behind some rulings too. I have no argument with the USD forks ruling as although they were supposedly readily available in NZ from Kawasaki pre 89, the fact is there were only a handful of ZXR400's in the country at the time and the price of replacement forks was out of reach of the majority of competitors....

The resoning behind some of the model exclusions is sound but it can still be tidied up. Originally CAMS rules banned all horizontally split case Yamaha 2 strokes from pre 72 as potentially all could be turned into later TZ's. The glaring loophole left now is the R5/DS7 which are legal but can be turned into TR3/TD3 - I know because I did it in period.
The other query I have is the FJ....what threat do they pose ? The frame style was an advance,yes, but Bimota was already marketing it earlier. We've rrecently had an FJ turn up to race here and had to point out the rules to the guy....and couldn't find the slightest reason it shouldn't run.

[malcy25]

Some interesting comments coming out here...and the reasons behind some rulings too. I have no argument with the USD forks ruling as although they were supposedly readily available in NZ from Kawasaki pre 89, the fact is there were only a handful of ZXR400's in the country at the time and the price of replacement forks was out of reach of the majority of competitors....

The resoning behind some of the model exclusions is sound but it can still be tidied up. Originally CAMS rules banned all horizontally split case Yamaha 2 strokes from pre 72 as potentially all could be turned into later TZ's. The glaring loophole left now is the R5/DS7 which are legal but can be turned into TR3/TD3 - I know because I did it in period.
The other query I have is the FJ....what threat do they pose ? The frame style was an advance,yes, but Bimota was already marketing it earlier. We've rrecently had an FJ turn up to race here and had to point out the rules to the guy....and couldn't find the slightest reason it shouldn't run.

Grumph

Not aware that Kwaka originally imported the ZXR400 to NZ, I undestood they were all grey imports. Notwithstanding this, our rules do not mention "NZ" in them.

TR3/TD3 replica is not a giant loop hole. Hell Daytona 200 in 72 (March) was won by Don Emde on a TR3. They are a genuine pre 72 bike. When you start converting to TZ with water cooled barrels, that automatically excludes them from pre 72 and the TZ is specifcally noted as excluded to ensure this.

FJ1100. That's nice. Noddy can 1) go back read the rules properly (see below) and 2) ride it pre 89. I can't see how anyone can get that one wrong. If he wants to slip it in as a Bimota in pre 82, he can go buy or rebuild a replica of the specific Bimota in Question, with the rest of the period major components it will require (ie never mind the FJ1100 engine is an 84 model as are the forks, brakes, swingarm etc!!!).

As previously stated elsewhere on these pages, the Rules say "replica",
Replica: an exact copy or model of something as per Oxford's dictionary. They don't say "same technology or style" they mean different things. That will be the key bit that needs to be noted.

FJ1100's are an 84 -> model.

Sometimes it is less about the threat, rather the downstream law of unintended consequences. One of the 13 commandments I pulled together 10-12 years ago as a way of analysing rule changes was to the effect of , will it cause a bike that was never competitive to become overly competitive? Ie let's not try to change history too much.

[Drew]

There's fuck all point in using USD forks any way. The big gain is cartridges instead of damper rods. Heaps of bikes had them, and there are several tuners in the country here who will upgrade them for fuck all. Upgrading suspension internals is completely legal as per the rules.

As you were.

[FROSTY]

Guys just a question for the learned. Just how full are the pre89/pre82 grids right now? How full have they been?
Its just that if they aren't full then why not let people sort of run what they brung?

[Kickaha]

if they aren't full then why not let people sort of run what they brung?

Why bother having any rules then?

Why should I waste my time building a legal bike which complies with the rules to race against people that don't

[Drew]

Guys just a question for the learned. Just how full are the pre89/pre82 grids right now? How full have they been?
Its just that if they aren't full then why not let people sort of run what they brung?Pretty fuckin full at Vic club meetings. And the streets. And AMCC the times I raced there.

[FROSTY]

Why bother having any rules then?

Why should I waste my time building a legal bike which complies with the rules to race against people that don't
I can apreciate your point of view with the massive sponsorship deals and prizemoney you SI guys have at stake.
what I'm saying is if theres small grids and you are turning guys away for bikes that sit on the cusp of legality why not make the rules inclusive rather than exclusive.
it looks to be fairly minor and insignificant areas that could be called grey areas rather than plain n simple black and white.
Again not that I'm hooked up on the ZXR forks thing for a moment but just as an example -They were available in a prooduction bike of the era. Its not a production class so therefore the forks should be allowed to be interchangeable.
As drew pointed out the early ZXR 400 forks weren't a lot better than a decently set up set of standard tele's anyway.

[Kickaha]

I can apreciate your point of view with the massive sponsorship deals and prizemoney you SI guys have at stake.
No you dont get the point at all

what I'm saying is if theres small grids and you are turning guys away for bikes that sit on the cusp of legality why not make the rules inclusive rather than exclusive. Why not just build a bike that's legal in the first place, although down here we have been more tolerant on bikes in the past that aren't "quite legal" if it doesn't give them an advantage

[worm13]

I can apreciate your point of view with the massive sponsorship deals and prizemoney you SI guys have at stake.
what I'm saying is if theres small grids and you are turning guys away for bikes that sit on the cusp of legality why not make the rules inclusive rather than exclusive.
it looks to be fairly minor and insignificant areas that could be called grey areas rather than plain n simple black and white.
Again not that I'm hooked up on the ZXR forks thing for a moment but just as an example -They were available in a prooduction bike of the era. Its not a production class so therefore the forks should be allowed to be interchangeable.
As drew pointed out the early ZXR 400 forks weren't a lot better than a decently set up set of standard tele's anyway.

There has to be a line drawn in the sand some where, if you let someone slide in on something minor then somebody alse will try the next step after the 1st person and then it snow balls from there, real simple keep it to the rules build it to the rules and theres no problems as for grids it would have to be the class that provides the most amount of entries where ever you go. Im lost on why pre89 needs to have rules bent where theres no way superbikes, 600 etc have this public debate

[malcy25]

There has to be a line drawn in the sand some where, if you let someone slide in on something minor then somebody alse will try the next step after the 1st person and then it snow balls from there, real simple keep it to the rules build it to the rules and theres no problems as for grids it would have to be the class that provides the most amount of entries where ever you go. Im lost on why pre89 needs to have rules bent where theres no way superbikes, 600 etc have this public debate



No you dont get the point at all
Why not just build a bike that's legal in the first place

Bingo. :clap: perfect.

Frosty. To be really blunt. Some of us had the foresight when the rules were written to try kill issues we knew were going to arise later or stop shit that was just plain pointless. The aim is to try and have bikes that a representative of the period, not just old shitters. Representative of the period is NOT every bike fitted wiith ZXR400 forks. Suck it up and accept it.

[Drew]

As drew pointed out the early ZXR 400 forks weren't a lot better than a decently set up set of standard tele's anyway.No, I said they were no better at all, and no better set up. Up side down forks are not better at damping fluid movement.

Anyhoo, post classics is in no shortage of racers. Why let illegal bikes in at all? Glen Williams has seen fit to build himself a legal pre '89 bike, that ran 2nd in a superbike race last year.

[FROSTY]

No you dont get the point at all

gwan explain "the point" to me then.
More bikes/bigger grids more pitties more spectators more money into the club meaning potentially more events

Hey if theres full grids if pre89 jnr and full grids in pre89 senior then clearly the formula works.

Im kinda thinking that if the organising club runs an event and makes a profit due to full grids then maybee the club will be more willing to run the odd event where they perhaps loose money.

[worm13]

gwan explain "the point" to me then.
More bikes/bigger grids more pitties more spectators more money into the club meaning potentially more events

Hey if theres full grids if pre89 jnr and full grids in pre89 senior then clearly the formula works.

Im kinda thinking that if the organising club runs an event and makes a profit due to full grids then maybee the club will be more willing to run the odd event where they perhaps loose money.

The reason why clubs run at a loss is due to poor numbers in other grids, full grids come in the form of posties, F3, 150 & mini lites. 600/superbikes are the poorest grids ive seen for a very long time! so why dont we have a look at there rules and fiddle rules to full that grid up but the main reason why its low is due to the lack of money to go around I know you know it everyone knows it, but what I dont want to see is the class that have clear guidelines that I have built MY bike to follow and then for some clown to come in with a bike that doesnt follow those guidelines and beats me, its happened before and to be honest I was pretty f**ked off about it, was sorted before the next round but the difference for me from 3rd overall to 4th overall was 5 points and guess what the difference in points between 1st and 3rd in a race is 5 points now do you get the picture??

[Mental Trousers]

The reason why clubs run at a loss is due to poor numbers in other grids full grids come in the form of posties, F3, 150 & mini lites; 600/superbikes are the poorest grids ive seen for a very long time!

Is that what you meant to say?? (note the ; )

[worm13]

Is that what you meant to say?? (note the ; )

Thanks for that I still look like a tool tho haha

[malcy25]

gwan explain "the point" to me then.
More bikes/bigger grids more pitties more spectators more money into the club meaning potentially more events

Hey if theres full grids if pre89 jnr and full grids in pre89 senior then clearly the formula works.

Im kinda thinking that if the organising club runs an event and makes a profit due to full grids then maybee the club will be more willing to run the odd event where they perhaps loose money.

Frosty,

Wake up, you're dreaming!

I'm tempted to stay keep the dunces hat on and go stand in the corner but that would be rude.

The exact things you propose ie "the rules don't mean much and can be ignored" is what drives people away as worm13 above has already alluded to.

Here's one for you. Tell me why in NZ don't we just have an all in, run what you brung open class. No capacity limit, no rules apart from safety ones, and that it must have two wheels. Yep, that's what fucked Motogp.

If by now after 6 pages (on this one and a few hundred elsewhere) you can't understand the concept of postie racing and what it's about, best you stick to stuff that you do understand.

[worm13]

Frosty,

Wake up, you're dreaming!

I'm tempted to stay keep the dunces hat on and go stand in the corner but that would be rude.

The exact things you propose ie "the rules don't mean much and can be ignored" is what drives people away as worm13 above has already alluded to.

Here's one for you. Tell me why in NZ don't we just have an all in, run what you brung open class. No capacity limit, no rules apart from safety ones, and that it must have two wheels. Yep, that's what fucked Motogp.

If by now after 6 pages (on this one and a few hundred elsewhere) you can't understand the concept of postie racing and what it's about, best you stick to stuff that you do understand.

:niceone: like. Oh wait this isnt facebook :)

[rustys]

Hi guys, i have been reading this thread with interest, i have been racing Post Classic Pre89 for a number of years now, and have meet a lot of good people through it, and enjoy the racing, and will continue to do so for a while yet.
I like racing the 400cc bikes, and over the years i have always raced my bikes in stock standard trim, keeping them relieable. Like a few others i/we have never had the money to outlay on engine performance bits, or to be competitive with the Kitted 400's and the now appearing 600s in 400 frames, so it tends to take the enjoyment out of it sometimes.
Last year i was going to spend money by putting a 600cc engine into a 400 frame to be more competitive, but i see that the new Classes F1/F2 and F3 in posties is now being introduced, so this will suit the bike that i race now.
I think that this will be good for the grids as we may see more 400cc stock bikes come back, if i'am right we should also see and have some good close racing again.
The cost of racing a stock 400 is minamal and affordable for most.
Thats just my thoughts from an old 65year old racer.

[worm13]

Hi guys, i have been reading this thread with interest, i have been racing Post Classic Pre89 for a number of years now, and have meet a lot of good people through it, and enjoy the racing, and will continue to do so for a while yet.
I like racing the 400cc bikes, and over the years i have always raced my bikes in stock standard trim, keeping them relieable. Like a few others i/we have never had the money to outlay on engine performance bits, or to be competitive with the Kitted 400's and the now appearing 600s in 400 frames, so it tends to take the enjoyment out of it sometimes.
Last year i was going to spend money by putting a 600cc engine into a 400 frame to be more competitive, but i see that the new Classes F1/F2 and F3 in posties is now being introduced, so this will suit the bike that i race now.
I think that this will be good for the grids as we may see more 400cc stock bikes come back, if i'am right we should also see and have some good close racing again.
The cost of racing a stock 400 is minamal and affordable for most.
Thats just my thoughts from an old 65year old racer.

The very reason on why im with the F1/F2/F3 setup, not only just 400s but now we should see some 2 smokers out racing again which would be nice to spice it up a bit more, not allowing 450s well that should come into the period racing bracket when it gets to pre 2003 bracket 03 being the start of the 450's that would be part of that novelty of that period i guess but once again when that period begins along come the sv and cycle goes on how ever 450s werent a F3 class rule and for the spirt of the class should run in F2.
No point going to all this effort of keeping bikes period and not racing them as per the period rullings IMO.

[gatch]

Hi guys, i have been reading this thread with interest, i have been racing Post Classic Pre89 for a number of years now, and have meet a lot of good people through it, and enjoy the racing, and will continue to do so for a while yet.
I like racing the 400cc bikes, and over the years i have always raced my bikes in stock standard trim, keeping them relieable. Like a few others i/we have never had the money to outlay on engine performance bits, or to be competitive with the Kitted 400's and the now appearing 600s in 400 frames, so it tends to take the enjoyment out of it sometimes.
Last year i was going to spend money by putting a 600cc engine into a 400 frame to be more competitive, but i see that the new Classes F1/F2 and F3 in posties is now being introduced, so this will suit the bike that i race now.
I think that this will be good for the grids as we may see more 400cc stock bikes come back, if i'am right we should also see and have some good close racing again.
The cost of racing a stock 400 is minamal and affordable for most.
Thats just my thoughts from an old 65year old racer.

Yeah I'm pretty stoked too. It means I'll be up against the like of dudes like you on stock, or minimally modified 400s. My bike as it is is stock. I love the idea of riding to the track. Unbolt some bits, hoon it, bolt bits back on then ride home.

With the rules the way they were ie up to 600cc for juniors, it would be pointless for me to even show up. So this has opened a whole new avenue for me. Chur :niceone:

[Billy]

The very reason on why im with the F1/F2/F3 setup, not only just 400s but now we should see some 2 smokers out racing again which would be nice to spice it up a bit more, not allowing 450s well that should come into the period racing bracket when it gets to pre 2003 bracket 03 being the start of the 450's that would be part of that novelty of that period i guess but once again when that period begins along come the sv and cycle goes on how ever 450s werent a F3 class rule and for the spirt of the class should run in F2.
No point going to all this effort of keeping bikes period and not racing them as per the period rullings IMO.

So if its being kept to period class rules to eliminate the 450s,Then there won't be any 2 stroke multi's GP or production based eligible until there's a pre 95 class ???

F3 rules should read,

Up to 400cc multi cylinder 4 stroke
Up to 250cc single cylinder 2 stroke
Up to 500cc single cylinder 3 stroke
Up to 500cc twin cylinder 4 stroke
Open single cylinder 4 stroke
As I recall without digging out an old rule book from the archives.

[lukemillar]

The very reason on why im with the F1/F2/F3 setup, not only just 400s but now we should see some 2 smokers out racing again which would be nice to spice it up a bit more, not allowing 450s well that should come into the period racing bracket when it gets to pre 2003 bracket 03 being the start of the 450's that would be part of that novelty of that period i guess but once again when that period begins along come the sv and cycle goes on how ever 450s werent a F3 class rule and for the spirt of the class should run in F2.
No point going to all this effort of keeping bikes period and not racing them as per the period rullings IMO.

At the end of the day, it really won't be much different from last year in terms of the actual racing. You'll still be out there with the same 750+/600/450 et al. as before and will invariably end up racing against similarly paced people regardless of what size engine you/they are running! The only difference will be at the end of the race when you see how many points you scored. Last year, I had some massive battles with guys on Snr. bikes and although on paper it made no frickin difference, it was still a hellva lot of fun.

[Mental Trousers]

Up to 500cc single cylinder 3 stroke


What the hell is a 3 stroke??

[codgyoleracer]

What the hell is a 3 stroke??

2 strokes (you can get away with)
3 strokes (your a wanker)
4 strokes (your a pervert)

[Mental Trousers]

It's shakes not strokes you dirty old man.

[worm13]

So if its being kept to period class rules to eliminate the 450s,Then there won't be any 2 stroke multi's GP or production based eligible until there's a pre 95 class ???

F3 rules should read,

Up to 400cc multi cylinder 4 stroke
Up to 250cc single cylinder 2 stroke
Up to 500cc single cylinder 3 stroke
Up to 500cc twin cylinder 4 stroke
Open single cylinder 4 stroke
As I recall without digging out an old rule book from the archives.

Well thats ruined my argument, Ive always assumed the rules were 250 2 stroke twin cylinder oh well to boost my argument should we start a pre89 250 proddie class :) hahaha but thanks for pointing that out, with the up to 250 single 2 smoke was the 125gp bikes excluded from that? or was it later on?

[Grumph]

So if its being kept to period class rules to eliminate the 450s,Then there won't be any 2 stroke multi's GP or production based eligible until there's a pre 95 class ???

F3 rules should read,

Up to 400cc multi cylinder 4 stroke
Up to 250cc single cylinder 2 stroke
Up to 500cc single cylinder 3 stroke
Up to 500cc twin cylinder 4 stroke
Open single cylinder 4 stroke
As I recall without digging out an old rule book from the archives.

As I recall, 4 strokes, 400 multis, 500 twins, unlimited singles.
2 strokes, 125 multis (effectively twins) and 250 singles.

Remember, we still had a 250 GP class as well as 250 proddy - the few TZ350's still running were F2 with the 600 fours.
If anyone does want to run a period legal 250 proddy, I'd think the logical place to run it would be in F3 - at the organisers discretion.
Modified of course would go up to F2......

[FROSTY]

Frosty,

Wake up, you're dreaming!

I'm tempted to stay keep the dunces hat on and go stand in the corner but that would be rude.

The exact things you propose ie "the rules don't mean much and can be ignored" is what drives people away as worm13 above has already alluded to.

Here's one for you. Tell me why in NZ don't we just have an all in, run what you brung open class. No capacity limit, no rules apart from safety ones, and that it must have two wheels. Yep, that's what fucked Motogp.

If by now after 6 pages (on this one and a few hundred elsewhere) you can't understand the concept of postie racing and what it's about, best you stick to stuff that you do understand.
You are overly defensive aren't you ?? Where did I say "throw away the rules?" At NO point did I say that. Keeping in mind I was at and racing in the first pre 89 race on my zxr750 and 400
All I suggested was that the rules be INCLUSIVE rather than exclusive
Ohh and why not a run what you brung class? simple really. Because those who make the rules say "it won't work" -a ruling from on high because "we" decide it wont work.
Comparing such a class to the multi billion dollar operation that is Moto gp is rediculous. Run what you brung is a logical next step "up" for a regular track dayer --feeding the funnel.

[Kickaha]

All I suggested was that the rules be INCLUSIVE rather than exclusive
Yes INCLUSIVE of bikes not legal for the class was what you suggested


Run what you brung is a logical next step "up" for a regular track dayer --feeding the funnel.
Its called clubmans

[Billy]

What the hell is a 3 stroke??

Ummm! The longest youve ever masturbated for ???? LMFAO!

[Drew]

You are overly defensive aren't you ?? Where did I say "throw away the rules?" At NO point did I say that. Keeping in mind I was at and racing in the first pre 89 race on my zxr750 and 400
All I suggested was that the rules be INCLUSIVE rather than exclusive
Ohh and why not a run what you brung class? simple really. Because those who make the rules say "it won't work" -a ruling from on high because "we" decide it wont work.
Comparing such a class to the multi billion dollar operation that is Moto gp is rediculous. Run what you brung is a logical next step "up" for a regular track dayer --feeding the funnel.Dude, you're getting your back up for no reason here. Your suggestions have been tabled before, and concensus is that including the few bikes that are on the cusp of qualifying now, is a mistake. Because the rules were set up specifically to exclude those bikes that would have an unfair advantage. Hense the rules need a slight re-write to read, "Pre (insert year here) machines are defined as the first year, in which they were publicly available for sale.

Clubmans exists for exactly the people you refer to, stepping into racing for the first time. And burglers.

MOST people who do race, do not want to get smoked by a bike they couldn't buy when they started, but is now allowed into their class. If it were me, I'd pack up my bike and not return.

[sugilite]

OK, here is a curly question. The rules under 25.5.6 state "Front and rear brakes must be manufactured in the period, or faithful replicas." So if you want replacement calipers that fit a Ducati 851, and brembo state they no longer make that caliper, but do have a replacement caliper, which incidentally has an official Ducati part number listed as replacement calipers for a 1988-89 851/888, is that legal? (they are different only in the fact they have different piston sizes, they are still single pin with 40mm spacing).

[malcy25]

OK, here is a curly question. The rules under 25.5.6 state "Front and rear brakes must be manufactured in the period, or faithful replicas." So if you want replacement calipers that fit a Ducati 851, and brembo state they no longer make that caliper, but do have a replacement caliper, which incidentally has an official Ducati part number listed as replacement calipers for a 1988-89 851/888, is that legal? (they are different only in the fact they have different piston sizes, they are still single pin with 40mm spacing).

If they don't represent what was available or manufactured in period, no go. You'll have to be a bit more inventive in where you source them from. I got a set of Grimeca calipers which were exact replicas of a period Brembo, brand new about 18 months back. Not sure if they did 4 pot ones as well.

[FROSTY]

Dude, you're getting your back up for no reason here.
Nahh matey I'm seriously not in the slightest bit getting even a tiny bit miffed.
I guess if anything I was having a cynical little snigger comparing this conversation with the Pro twins conversation
Ie what is (would be) allowed and what isn't (wouldn't)
In 30 years around the tracks nothing has really changed.

[Grumph]

Nahh matey I'm seriously not in the slightest bit getting even a tiny bit miffed.
I guess if anything I was having a cynical little snigger comparing this conversation with the Pro twins conversation
Ie what is (would be) allowed and what isn't (wouldn't)
In 30 years around the tracks nothing has really changed.

I'm personally pleased there is a "fudge factor" in the rules - I'd always prefer to out-think the opposition rather than out spend them...

If you leave no room for interpretation you get no progress - look at the Kartsport manual as an example of how tightly you could be regulated. Their mantra is - If it doesn't say you can do it, you can't !!! The first lesson when racing is how to read the rulebook.

I'll see your 30 years and admit to 44 as a participant plus about another 10 as a young supporter....shit after working that out i need a rest....

[ellipsis]

....you dont have time to rest Greg...you have all those other peoples dreams to build yet...

[jasonu]

Nahh matey I'm seriously not in the slightest bit getting even a tiny bit miffed.
I guess if anything I was having a cynical little snigger comparing this conversation with the Buckets conversation
Ie what is (would be) allowed and what isn't (wouldn't)
In 30 years around the tracks nothing has really changed.

Fixed it for ya.

[eelracing]

Screw the pre 89 class.Vic club has moved with the times and created a Post 90 Carburetted class and a damn fine idea at that.

I'm gonna support it ...who else will give it a crack???

http://www.vicclub.co.nz/90carbies.php

[worm13]

I will if it takes off and becomes a mnz class. a zx9 might be my weapon of choice just not to keen on sinking money into something that has very little numbers while pre 89 a still showing good numbers

[crazy man]

Screw the pre 89 class.Vic club has moved with the times and created a Post 90 Carburetted class and a damn fine idea at that.

I'm gonna support it ...who else will give it a crack???

http://www.vicclub.co.nz/90carbies.phpl want to but dont want to race with the super bikes just in with the 89 guys on it

[quickbuck]

Screw the pre 89 class.Vic club has moved with the times and created a Post 90 Carburetted class and a damn fine idea at that.

I'm gonna support it ...who else will give it a crack???

http://www.vicclub.co.nz/90carbies.php
Well, Half tempted....
Thinking I might turn up on the CBR6, tape up the lights and give it a run... See how it goes.

Somebody might protest my pillion pegs though, as they are off a 99 F4 ;)

[Mental Trousers]

Well, Half tempted....
Thinking I might turn up on the CBR6, tape up the lights and give it a run... See how it goes.

Somebody might rotest my pillion pegs though, as they are on a 99 F4 ;)

Just do it. But don't be surprised if a bog standard RF rides around the outside of you at Splash with the indicators flapping in the breeze.

[quickbuck]

Just do it. But don't be surprised if a bog standard RF rides around the outside of you at Splash with the indicators flapping in the breeze.

I will be very surprised, as isn't the RF an F1 Bike?
Aren't the Carbie bikes running of the back of the formula classes?
OR, are they chucked in together, and have races within a race?

What ever the case, I am semi keen. Bank enough points in the early rounds, and will be a little way up the championship before everybody cottons on.

[Drew]

Well, Half tempted....
Thinking I might turn up on the CBR6, tape up the lights and give it a run... See how it goes.

Somebody might protest my pillion pegs though, as they are off a 99 F4 ;)I raced the RF with nothing but tape over my lights, and my pillion pegs don't even stay folded up anymore the old girl is so tired, you'll be fine.


I will be very surprised, as isn't the RF an F1 Bike?
Aren't the Carbie bikes running of the back of the formula classes?
OR, are they chucked in together, and have races within a race?

What ever the case, I am semi keen. Bank enough points in the early rounds, and will be a little way up the championship before everybody cottons on.
Dunno about back of the grid, pretty sure we'll qualify with the supers (or whatever class), and start from those places. At least I bloody hope so, or gonna be some very worried punters when my aircraft carrier wobbles past them.

[Drew]

Just do it. But don't be surprised if a bog standard RF rides around the outside of you at Splash with the indicators flapping in the breeze.The "long way round pass' at splash wasn't the intention bro, I'll try and get the ol' girl past and lined up earlier next time.

[slowpoke]

Screw the pre 89 class.Vic club has moved with the times and created a Post 90 Carburetted class and a damn fine idea at that.

I'm gonna support it ...who else will give it a crack???

http://www.vicclub.co.nz/90carbies.php

I still dunno why they didn't just say Pre-2000 and leave out the carb's prerequisite. Seems weird that you can rock up with a 160hp warmed over R1 but can't race a TL1000R or 916 or SP1 that the R1 would blow into the bushes. The carb's part just seems like an unnecessary complication that will rule out some interesting bikes.

[TLR luva]

I agree with you spud a pre 2000 class is the way to go, I have suggested this to motorcycling canterbury but nothing has happened as yet. This would be perfect to run my tlr1000 when I get it.

[Kickaha]

I agree with you spud a pre 2000 class is the way to go, I have suggested this to motorcycling canterbury but nothing has happened as yet.
Probably unlikey to either, if every club made a class just because someone wants a a particular age cutoff we'd have about 50 classes with fuck all bikes and take a week to get through them all

This would be perfect to run my tlr1000 when I get it.
A better idea would be to buy a bike that fits an exisiting class

[quickbuck]

Probably unlikey to either, if every club made a class just because someone wants a a particular age cutoff we'd have about 50 classes with fuck all bikes and take a week to get through them all

A better idea would be to buy a bike that fits an exisiting class

Exactly on bith points.
The idea was it would be lowish cost..... and somewhere for the older bikes out there to have a go.
Carbs.. you can still tinker. FI you just end up buying a power commander, and well.... Yup, spend some money.

[TLR luva]

Excuse me for having an opinion..

[lukemillar]

You can race a tlr in F1, clubbies or open-twin already. Don't need to wait for a pre-2000 class!

[TLR luva]

alredy hav a bike for the F1 class. I was wanting to race a TLR because I like them and other than F1 Idont have a class as my understanding is clubmans is a starter class... well it is down in the south im pretty sure.

[crazy man]

alredy hav a bike for the F1 class. I was wanting to race a TLR because I like them and other than F1 Idont have a class as my understanding is clubmans is a starter class... well it is down in the south im pretty sure.you will be doing good to ride 2 bikes in f1 at the same time

[Drew]

Excuse me for having an opinion..

You're excused. Goodby.

But seriously, there cannot be a race class for every bike to be competitive in. There are just too many variables. If you wanna race the TLR, come to Aukland and race 'open twins', there's all sorts in that group, but you're gonna need to be Rossi to keep up with the 1198's and other exotica.

[slowpoke]

Probably unlikey to either, if every club made a class just because someone wants a a particular age cutoff we'd have about 50 classes with fuck all bikes and take a week to get through them all

A better idea would be to buy a bike that fits an exisiting class



But seriously, there cannot be a race class for every bike to be competitive in. There are just too many variables. If you wanna race the TLR, come to Aukland and race 'open twins', there's all sorts in that group, but you're gonna need to be Rossi to keep up with the 1198's and other exotica.

It's not about creating another class, it's about getting this old fangled class off the ground in the coming season. It just seems unnecessarily restrictive to say carb's only when the fastest carb'd bikes from around that 2000 era are way fasterer gooderer than FI bikes of the same era. What's fuel injected from before 2000 that would get anywhere near an R1 or FireBlade? What's got carb's after 2000 that will be competitive against 'em without starting Spend-War 3? What benefit/reasoning is behind the carb's only stipulation? I just don't geddit.....

There is no cost benefit to running carb's over FI: fit a pipe or ram-airbox to your carb'd bike and getting it jetted correctly won't be any cheaper than a Power Commander and that's assuming the carb's are in half decent condition to start with which is unlikely on bikes up to 22 years old.

Good on Vic Club for trying something different but I reckon the numbers would look more viable if they hadn't been unnecessarily restrictive. Time will tell I guess.

Hmmmm, didn't the very first YZR-M1 MotoGP bike have carb's? "Oh Mr Yamaha...can I talk to you for a second....?"

[eelracing]

It's not about creating another class, it's about getting this old fangled class off the ground in the coming season.

Good on Vic Club for trying something different but I reckon the numbers would look more viable if they hadn't been unnecessarily restrictive. Time will tell I guess.

That's all that is needed to be said.Just take your lights off and come racing ya big jessie.

Leave all the bullshit reg talk to people who just like to talk as opposed to doing it.

[Drew]

It's obvious that the carb'ed R1 is the bike to win the class on, but who cares. I'll still run the RF.

It is stipulated "Carbed", because the age restriction is "Post 1990". That allows anything, so someone who runs mid pack on his L2 gixxer thou can enter this class instead and be very unfairly advantaged.

[worm13]

It's obvious that the carb'ed R1 is the bike to win the class on, but who cares. I'll still run the RF.

It is stipulated "Carbed", because the age restriction is "Post 1990". That allows anything, so someone who runs mid pack on his L2 gixxer thou can enter this class instead and be very unfairly advantaged.

Bingo.. pre 89 the bike to have is a fzr1000. regardless of the class there is always gonna be a bike to be on.... some one try a zx9r with a muzzy 1000 kit in it... might be worth a crack :) or a cbr900 running a 954 kit,think out side the square,one of the joys of these classes

[steveyb]

Not to forget that the VMCC committee asked for submissions on the class to set it up some time ago.
So we all had our chance to make alterations to the set up.

I'd still smoke you all on my 250, if I could have been arsed suggesting that it was INCREDIBLY discriminatory to not allow GP bikes into the class, eh Skunky wunky!!! :mad:

But I guess every race would have to be wet.......

Get a 2-stroke up ya's all that's all I have to say about that ......

[crazy man]

Bingo.. pre 89 the bike to have is a fzr1000. regardless of the class there is always gonna be a bike to be on.... some one try a zx9r with a muzzy 1000 kit in it... might be worth a crack :) or a cbr900 running a 954 kit,think out side the square,one of the joys of these classescome on a zxr 750 with a big bore kit would be the way to go (-; cambell on his rc30 in 1990 did a 109 at manfeild as well

[Drew]

come on a zxr 750 with a big bore kit would be the way to go (-; cambell on his rc30 in 1990 did a 109 at manfeild as wellDoug Poland went at least a second quicker, on a shit box 888 Ducati.

Comparing times with back then is like comparing a Levels time, to a Ruapuna lap. The track is not as fast as it was.

[worm13]

Doug Poland went at least a second quicker, on a shit box 888 Ducati.

Comparing times with back then is like comparing a Levels time, to a Ruapuna lap. The track is not as fast as it was.

Na the guys with the money these days have gone soft :)

[slowpoke]

That's all that is needed to be said.Just take your lights off and come racing ya big jessie.

Leave all the bullshit reg talk to people who just like to talk as opposed to doing it.

Me GSXR1000K7 is already a race bike/garage clothes drying rack, I've just gotta find a set of FCR's and fuck off the poofy FI now. No worries, will be interesting to see what rocks up.

[crazy man]

Doug Poland went at least a second quicker, on a shit box 888 Ducati.

Comparing times with back then is like comparing a Levels time, to a Ruapuna lap. The track is not as fast as it was.no went more like 3 sec's faster think it was a 106.6

[Drew]

no went more like 3 sec's faster think it was a 106.6
Been some conjecture over the years on here, regarding the exact times. I was being conservative.

[lukemillar]

The track is not as fast as it was.

I have heard this before as well

Crazy Man posted an F3 timesheet a while ago from way back when and a lot of the 400s were doing 13s/14s. I haven't seen a 400 get under 17s/18s in recent times at that was with a decent rider and in theory, tyre/suspension tech should be much better now! Maybe we are just pussies... :facepalm:

[worm13]

I have heard this before as well

Crazy Man posted an F3 timesheet a while ago from way back when and a lot of the 400s were doing 13s/14s. I haven't seen a 400 get under 17s/18s in recent times at that was with a decent rider and in theory, tyre/suspension tech should be much better now! Maybe we are just pussies... :facepalm:

most of thoses 400s were 96 onwards and running 600 front ends etc etc also I know with the zxrs theres about 25 kilos different between them and 89 zxrs but saying that back then the track was rough... only one line thru thr hairpin you had no choice in that, turn one was a bit like that as well with the slippery cement patch mid corner. its kind of a hard one to pick really bikes where different and a shitty surface (IMO) and today bikes arent the same but the surface is better.
Should put Glen Willams on your 400 Crazy man should be about the same as a Jared Love on a FZR400 and compare times :)

[crazy man]

most of thoses 400s were 96 onwards and running 600 front ends etc etc also I know with the zxrs theres about 25 kilos different between them and 89 zxrs but saying that back then the track was rough... only one line thru thr hairpin you had no choice in that, turn one was a bit like that as well with the slippery cement patch mid corner. its kind of a hard one to pick really bikes where different and a shitty surface (IMO) and today bikes arent the same but the surface is better.
Should put Glen Willams on your 400 Crazy man should be about the same as a Jared Love on a FZR400 and compare times :)andy , troy .most of them were on 89 -90 bikes ..600 front ends in the year 2000 were no better than what was on the 400. in facted never sore a 400 with a 600 front end in it. just the odd guy with after market wheels in it like mine and barrys . most guys run stock shocks as well.. that was when men were men lol

[lukemillar]

andy , troy .most of them were on 89 -90 bikes ..600 front ends in the year 2000 were no better than what was on the 400. in facted never sore a 400 with a 600 front end in it. just the odd guy with after market wheels in it like mine and barrys . most guys run stock shocks as well.. that was when men were men lol

What kind of tuning had been done to the motors?

[worm13]

andy , troy .most of them were on 89 -90 bikes ..600 front ends in the year 2000 were no better than what was on the 400. in facted never sore a 400 with a 600 front end in it. just the odd guy with after market wheels in it like mine and barrys . most guys run stock shocks as well.. that was when men were men lol

na im sure andys was 96 aye, agree troys was a 89 glen tanners I think was a 89 Hayden was doing 18s on the 89 zxr then when he rode his old mans bike his times droped even more once again mid 94ish I think, Dereks FZR was a early model but once again his times started to drop as he speced his with new parts if memory serves me correctly. I may have to look at some of the old time sheets but im pretty sure there werent that many 89-90 bikes. but your right most of the bikes didnt have them yellow springy things in them that you hate so much

[crazy man]

na im sure andys was 96 aye, agree troys was a 89 glen tanners I think was a 89 Hayden was doing 18s on the 89 zxr then when he rode his old mans bike his times droped even more once again mid 94ish I think, Dereks FZR was a early model but once again his times started to drop as he speced his with new parts if memory serves me correctly. I may have to look at some of the old time sheets but im pretty sure there werent that many 89-90 bikes. but your right most of the bikes didnt have them yellow springy things in them that you hate so muchandy wanted to buy my spear bike cause he could not finded a newer one. a 96 bike in 2000-2001 was only a 4 -5 year old bike ! just were not around ! but l had a big cheque book then ...not . the bike l have had no frame numbers because was new frame from japan

[crazy man]

What kind of tuning had been done to the motors?most the top runners had flat slides all round 66-70 hp . mine had the basic stuff done 13.5 head com, lighten crank, standard pistons with edges rounded to stop cracking , ported head , cdi may of been played with , race exhaust. thats about it

[worm13]

andy wanted to buy my spear bike cause he could not finded a newer one. a 96 bike in 2000-2001 was only a 4 -5 year old bike ! just were not around ! but l had a big cheque book then ...not . the bike l have had no frame numbers because was new frame from japan

Ok...... ive gone and looked at old time sheets from 2002-2003 nats at manfield... 1st year with carbed 650s andy has listed a "ZXR400'96 Kawasaki" quoted from timing sheets and he did 1.15.905 bruce hansen won with a 1.13.938 and terry fitzgerald 2nd with a 1.15.012 and looking thru the time sheets from 01 hes got his zxr listed as a 96 and seems to be the fastest zxr at every manfeild round followed up by either you or barry armes which was a 93 and from what i can see is the 1st 89 bike is jimbo with a 1.19.623 Im not saying that the time sheets ive got mean anymore or any less then what alse is around or I know best but from what you see comparing todays times with is kinda hard to do due to the bikes ages.

[crazy man]

Ok...... ive gone and looked at old time sheets from 2002-2003 nats at manfield... 1st year with carbed 650s andy has listed a "ZXR400'96 Kawasaki" quoted from timing sheets and he did 1.15.905 bruce hansen won with a 1.13.938 and terry fitzgerald 2nd with a 1.15.012 and looking thru the time sheets from 01 hes got his zxr listed as a 96 and seems to be the fastest zxr at every manfeild round followed up by either you or barry armes which was a 93 and from what i can see is the 1st 89 bike is jimbo with a 1.19.623 Im not saying that the time sheets ive got mean anymore or any less that whats alse is around or I know best but from what you see there and comparing todays times with is kinda hard to do due to the bikes ages.think by 2003 things changed alot with the sv650 coming to play andy prombley by then andy did have the newer bike . in 1998 troy did a 14.5 so l think andew brethon spell wrong l know

[worm13]

think by 2003 things changed alot with the sv650 coming to play andy prombley by then andy did have the newer bike . in 1998 troy did a 14.5 so l think andew brethon spell wrong l know

Hahaha well in 98 I was learning how to crash on my mighty tf100 so im not gonna fight ya there

[crazy man]

is this old 86-87 fz 750 v4 with 7 valves per clylinder ok for pre 89? http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoserver/24/182358524_full.jpg

[steveyb]

If I recall rightly, and there is no guarantee of that..... I think the bike Andy B rode at Manfeild in '02-03 might have been Martin Dunns ZXR which was a European bike. Martin spared nothing in building his bikes with as many kit parts and top suspension that he could find. The bike is now sitting in a glass display box in his bar at home!! Along with Andy weighing 25kg soaking wet, it is no surprise he went so fast. Terry Fitzgeralds Suzuki GSXR400 might well have been the most developed GSXR400 in the world back then!?!?!?! But it came at a price in terms of engine life, or lack thereof.
Derek Hill had his 3TJ FZR by 2002-03. He was forever doing something to it. Was always thinking about ways to make it faster. He was never quite able to do the most obvious part, lose his fat guts!! (I think there are plenty of us in that boat!!).
He had full airbox from UK design, FCR's TZ250 wheels, Ohlins shock and front internals but only ever ran original FZR forks.
In my mind, and it is some time ago now, I reckon that in that era (the earlier era bikes of Nathan Spargo and Tony MacMurdo etc were faster for whatever reason) Bill van der Hoven and Dereks bikes were the fastest 400's, Martin, Andy and Terry's were next fastest, but Derek was not the fastest rider mostly due to his extra size over those guys.

[worm13]

is this old 86-87 fz 750 v4 with 7 valves per clylinder ok for pre 89? http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoserver/24/182358524_full.jpg

Your old man has already shown me that magazine, and the answer is..... dunno :)

[worm13]

If I recall rightly, and there is no guarantee of that..... I think the bike Andy B rode at Manfeild in '02-03 might have been Martin Dunns ZXR which was a European bike. Martin spared nothing in building his bikes with as many kit parts and top suspension that he could find. The bike is now sitting in a glass display box in his bar at home!! Along with Andy weighing 25kg soaking wet, it is no surprise he went so fast. Terry Fitzgeralds Suzuki GSXR400 might well have been the most developed GSXR400 in the world back then!?!?!?! But it came at a price in terms of engine life, or lack thereof.
Derek Hill had his 3TJ FZR by 2002-03. He was forever doing something to it. Was always thinking about ways to make it faster. He was never quite able to do the most obvious part, lose his fat guts!! (I think there are plenty of us in that boat!!).
He had full airbox from UK design, FCR's TZ250 wheels, Ohlins shock and front internals but only ever ran original FZR forks.
In my mind, and it is some time ago now, I reckon that in that era (the earlier era bikes of Nathan Spargo and Tony MacMurdo etc were faster for whatever reason) Bill van der Hoven and Dereks bikes were the fastest 400's, Martin, Andy and Terry's were next fastest, but Derek was not the fastest rider mostly due to his extra size over those guys.

Yeah martins bike was a cool kit. totally forgot about his bike, can only find one timesheet with his name it here with me and thats long track vicclub 03 and maybe after that winter series he did nationals with it I think, Jared love on Bills bike was awesome to watch at taupo during tim gibbes winter series was the year beanie set the lap record there of a 39.9 on his GSXR1000 and Jared rocking in on the 400 with a 41.4.
for sure there were some fast 400s back then and then along came them sv :(

[crazy man]

If I recall rightly, and there is no guarantee of that..... I think the bike Andy B rode at Manfeild in '02-03 might have been Martin Dunns ZXR which was a European bike. Martin spared nothing in building his bikes with as many kit parts and top suspension that he could find. The bike is now sitting in a glass display box in his bar at home!! Along with Andy weighing 25kg soaking wet, it is no surprise he went so fast. Terry Fitzgeralds Suzuki GSXR400 might well have been the most developed GSXR400 in the world back then!?!?!?! But it came at a price in terms of engine life, or lack thereof.
Derek Hill had his 3TJ FZR by 2002-03. He was forever doing something to it. Was always thinking about ways to make it faster. He was never quite able to do the most obvious part, lose his fat guts!! (I think there are plenty of us in that boat!!).
He had full airbox from UK design, FCR's TZ250 wheels, Ohlins shock and front internals but only ever ran original FZR forks.
In my mind, and it is some time ago now, I reckon that in that era (the earlier era bikes of Nathan Spargo and Tony MacMurdo etc were faster for whatever reason) Bill van der Hoven and Dereks bikes were the fastest 400's, Martin, Andy and Terry's were next fastest, but Derek was not the fastest rider mostly due to his extra size over those guys.my bike went past Bill van der Hoven like it was standing still but put that more down to his slow corner speed. my bike looks like nothing now days because l'm slow and yet l'm getting more power out of it than l ever had back then

[Grumph]

If I recall rightly, and there is no guarantee of that.... (the earlier era bikes of Nathan Spargo and Tony MacMurdo etc were faster for whatever reason)

Nitro explains a lot....

If my memory is still good, i seem to recall my kawa 500 doing around the 13's at the WSB meeting. The three top F3's at that meeting were all around that speed - Ernie Cudby's FZR and the guy from Mercer whose name escapes me on the KTM special and Mark Taylor on my Kawa.
Tony was first time out with the new 400 and having problems.
When we came North the only 400 at that time which gave us any trouble was Ernie - and only on Manfield as he didn't travel.
Pete Sales told me later the KTM had nearly worn out his dyno prepping for that meeting - 28% Nitro I was told....
It wasn't enough, Mark outrode him.

[Billy]

Nitro explains a lot....

If my memory is still good, i seem to recall my kawa 500 doing around the 13's at the WSB meeting. The three top F3's at that meeting were all around that speed - Ernie Cudby's FZR and the guy from Mercer whose name escapes me on the KTM special and Mark Taylor on my Kawa.
Tony was first time out with the new 400 and having problems.
When we came North the only 400 at that time which gave us any trouble was Ernie - and only on Manfield as he didn't travel.
Pete Sales told me later the KTM had nearly worn out his dyno prepping for that meeting - 28% Nitro I was told....
It wasn't enough, Mark outrode him.

Yip,That'll be William Birch,Cut up a perfectly good TZ to make that KTM single thingy,Ernie was tho only one out of all those guys to achieve those times on petrol,Oh and William was from Huntly

[malcy25]

Yip,That'll be William Birch,Cut up a perfectly good TZ to make that KTM single thingy,Ernie was tho only one out of all those guys to achieve those times on petrol,Oh and William was from Huntly

One of his TZ's is in my garage...another was in the family a long time ago. We had some of the body work which must have come off the KTM. The bottom fairing had a chunky alloy plate glassed into the bottom. Not sure if wasn't there to catch the end of the conrod....

[Grumph]

One of his TZ's is in my garage...another was in the family a long time ago. We had some of the body work which must have come off the KTM. The bottom fairing had a chunky alloy plate glassed into the bottom. Not sure if wasn't there to catch the end of the conrod....

No it was there as a rubbing strip for when the shock broke...which it invariably did...
I was told at the time that the frame was a Ginger built TZ copy not an original TZ.

Bill came south and lived in ChCh for a while. Turned up at a couple of meetings with an RS250. Got blown off by a local with one of Tony's old 400 Kawas and we didn't see him again....

[Billy]

No it was there as a rubbing strip for when the shock broke...which it invariably did...
I was told at the time that the frame was a Ginger built TZ copy not an original TZ.

Bill came south and lived in ChCh for a while. Turned up at a couple of meetings with an RS250. Got blown off by a local with one of Tony's old 400 Kawas and we didn't see him again....

Yea,But they cut up a TZ frame and used the steering head and swingarm pivot

[Billy]

One of his TZ's is in my garage...another was in the family a long time ago. We had some of the body work which must have come off the KTM. The bottom fairing had a chunky alloy plate glassed into the bottom. Not sure if wasn't there to catch the end of the conrod....

Hope you took the Krober ignition off it then,That thing was bloody fast but was constantly detonating due to the ignition having no retard cycle

[malcy25]

No it was there as a rubbing strip for when the shock broke...which it invariably did...
I was told at the time that the frame was a Ginger built TZ copy not an original TZ.

Bill came south and lived in ChCh for a while. Turned up at a couple of meetings with an RS250. Got blown off by a local with one of Tony's old 400 Kawas and we didn't see him again....

Yeah, when we got my bike and another TZ from him 97, he brought them up from Chch one weekend when he was seeing his father in Huntly. The other bike was Ex Pero as well.

[codgyoleracer]

Dont you get me started mr Williams!! hahaha where alse they gonna go? the rules have been based around that period.... yes there were a few people running 450s in f3 but that wasnt written in the rule book so call it what ya want. I asked the question if I could change my frame to a frame style what you run with your SV, if you look back that sorta thing was done in the day but not with a zxr and even if I keep the geo to the same spec etc etc it still cant be done :( so for the weight saving thing no more pies for me but was worth asking about.

In Answer to your questions:
Where else are they gonna go: Ummmmmm, in posties F3 ?, unless of course your confident that the 450's are gonna go out and spank the 600's on a regular basis.......... The other problem with the rule is the actual realistic policing of it. - Stripping engines down to checkover-bores or even slightly over-sized engines that are a feww cc's over the limit, is not realistically going to happen is it ?
Re changing the frame: If you can locate a bimota, rickman, seely, mckiintosh that had your old donkey engine in it - then fine.
Comments on the Geometry etc are irrelevant, - you can change that sorta stuff if you could show some proof (extending swingarms etc)
Weight Saving: Given your obvious love for pies & dohnuts - then donating your limbs to science for replacement of Bionic/Titanium technology is probably the best/easiest solution.......

[malcy25]

Hope you took the Krober ignition off it then,That thing was bloody fast but was constantly detonating due to the ignition having no retard cycle

Hitachi on it when I got it. Some wicked igns around now for the old girls.....:nya: Come up at HD next weeked for a look if you are there.

[worm13]

In Answer to your questions:
Where else are they gonna go: Ummmmmm, in F3 ?, unless of course your confident that the 450's are gonna go out and spank the 600's on a regular basis.......... The other problem with the rule is the actual realistic policing of it. - Stripping engines down to checkover-bores or even slightly over-sized engines that are a feww cc's over the limit, is not realistically going to happen is it ?
Re changing the frame: If you can locate a bimota, rickman, seely, mckiintosh that had your old donkey engine in it - then fine.
Comments on the Geometry etc are irrelevant, - you can change that sorta stuff if you could show some proof (extending swingarms etc)
Weight Saving: Given your obvious love for pies & dohnuts - then donating your limbs to science for replacement of Bionic/Titanium technology is probably the best/easiest solution.......

Ouch man I havent had a Pie for 3 weeks its them damn energy drinks lol also the titanium can be discussed with the surgeon on the 21st :)
Im agasint the 450 thing for budget reasons.. to many people have built 450s and blow up regularly and then the sport losses thoses people due to lossing intrest in because of the cost that has come with it, and at the moemenet how many 450s run in Posties? If you set the bar for people to run at 450 then chances are we may loose them in a years time and what would that do to the grids we have now?
The idea of changing frames was a half arsed idea and by no means am I aguring the point that you can or cant, Just flicked thru a 2 wheels mag regarding the katana that steve martin rode at PI and looking at the macs chassis, My very limited know of the pre82 I didnt know that, that was as per what you could get in that period, question was asked, question was answered and have not looked at that anymore.
By the way bike build at the moe is ive cut 8 kilos out of it already and 7 off me :):banana::banana:

[codgyoleracer]

BTW - No one can protest the bionic parts, Steve Austin was using them in the 70's :-)

[lukemillar]

Where else are they gonna go: Ummmmmm, in posties F3 ?, unless of course your confident that the 450's are gonna go out and spank the 600's on a regular basis.......... The other problem with the rule is the actual realistic policing of it. - Stripping engines down to checkover-bores or even slightly over-sized engines that are a feww cc's over the limit, is not realistically going to happen is it ?

At the end of the day, if you chuck the 450s in F2 then they are disadvantaged against the 600s whereas in F3, the 400s are disadvantaged against the 450s! I can think of only 1 possibly 2 450s in NI Post Classics last year but waaay more 400s. You either disadvantage the majority or the minority.

Of course I'm completely biased as someone who just spent a bundle building a 400 and deliberately DIDN'T rebore or stroke the motor because of these new rules!

[Billy]

Of course I'm completely biased as someone who just spent a bundle building a 400 and deliberately DIDN'T rebore or stroke the motor because of these new rules!

What new rules???

[crazy man]

What new rules???that the f3 bike has to stay a 400 not a 450 in the pre 89 class l take it its what he is saying

[Billy]

that the f3 bike has to stay a 400 not a 450 in the pre 89 class l take it its what he is saying

Yip,I know what he means,But where are these new rules listed?

[Grumph]

Yip,I know what he means,But where are these new rules listed?

Not in the rulebook, Mr Chairman....

It would appear that the proposal put up by NZPCRA has been greeted with such acclamation that no one bothered to put in a remit.

Certainly in the SI CAMS are actively running to the pre 89 F3 regs as far as capacity goes - and trying to police ( politely) the 400cc limit for multis.
It would seem to be an idea whose time has come so someone should get off their arse and do the remit surely.

[worm13]

Not in the rulebook, Mr Chairman....

It would appear that the proposal put up by NZPCRA has been greeted with such acclamation that no one bothered to put in a remit.

Certainly in the SI CAMS are actively running to the pre 89 F3 regs as far as capacity goes - and trying to police ( politely) the 400cc limit for multis.
It would seem to be an idea whose time has come so someone should get off their arse and do the remit surely.

I think its because it missed the boat last year, hence why NZPCRA and up coming vicclub are running it as a sup reg but I do belive the wheels are in moition

[steveyb]

So let me ask then. The new proposal to redesignate Post Classic Snr and Jnr into F1, F2, F3 classes will be run under what F1, F2 and F3 rules?
Rules as per 1982 and 1989?
Well, I don't recall that NZ had an F1 class in 1989, was it not Senior Production or something similar?
Does anyone actually have copies of the F2 and F3 rules from the day? If so, it should be known that they are/were Formula Rules therefore all sorts of mods were permissable, including Methanol and the use of turbochargers on 400's.

Rules as per 2012?
We no longer have F1 or F2, so there can be no rules and they will have to be made up, F3(Superlite) rules allow 450cc 4 cyl multi's.

A can of worms that it seems no one has really thought through clearly.

[Billy]

I think its because it missed the boat last year, hence why NZPCRA and up coming vicclub are running it as a sup reg but I do belive the wheels are in moition


So let me ask then. The new proposal to redesignate Post Classic Snr and Jnr into F1, F2, F3 classes will be run under what F1, F2 and F3 rules?
Rules as per 1982 and 1989?
Well, I don't recall that NZ had an F1 class in 1989, was it not Senior Production or something similar?
Does anyone actually have copies of the F2 and F3 rules from the day? If so, it should be known that they are/were Formula Rules therefore all sorts of mods were permissable, including Methanol and the use of turbochargers on 400's.

Rules as per 2012?
We no longer have F1 or F2, so there can be no rules and they will have to be made up, F3(Superlite) rules allow 450cc 4 cyl multi's.

A can of worms that it seems no one has really thought through clearly.


Not in the rulebook, Mr Chairman....

It would appear that the proposal put up by NZPCRA has been greeted with such acclamation that no one bothered to put in a remit.

Certainly in the SI CAMS are actively running to the pre 89 F3 regs as far as capacity goes - and trying to police ( politely) the 400cc limit for multis.
It would seem to be an idea whose time has come so someone should get off their arse and do the remit surely.

Wrong,wrong and wrong,Nobody has applied for supp regs to run the classes mentioned above,Therefore NOBODY should be running them,If you want to know the answer,Contact me through the correct channels and you will find out,The correct channels are not Kiwibiker.

[slowpoke]

So let me ask then. The new proposal to redesignate Post Classic Snr and Jnr into F1, F2, F3 classes will be run under what F1, F2 and F3 rules?
Rules as per 1982 and 1989?
Well, I don't recall that NZ had an F1 class in 1989, was it not Senior Production or something similar?
Does anyone actually have copies of the F2 and F3 rules from the day? If so, it should be known that they are/were Formula Rules therefore all sorts of mods were permissable, including Methanol and the use of turbochargers on 400's.

Rules as per 2012?
We no longer have F1 or F2, so there can be no rules and they will have to be made up, F3(Superlite) rules allow 450cc 4 cyl multi's.

A can of worms that it seems no one has really thought through clearly.

I brought this up a while back: it's not just a Post Classic problem, many clubs/events run F1, F2 type classes, under rules that don't seem to be stipulated anywhere. It's a strange state of affairs.......

What rules are clubs/events running under when 400/450's are allowed to enter an F2 race? MNZ rules stipulate 501-600cc 4 stroke multi's in Supersport and 600 Superstock.

Same with 600's entering F1. MNZ stipulate +700cc for 4 stroke multi's to enter Superbike.

It's all more than a bit fucked up.

[ellipsis]

It's all a more than a bit fucked up.

.....understatement...

[jasonu]

Wrong,wrong and wrong,Nobody has applied for supp regs to run the classes mentioned above,Therefore NOBODY should be running them,If you want to know the answer,Contact me through the correct channels and you will find out,The correct channels are not Kiwibiker.

Maybe KB is not the 'correct' channel but it is certainly one that a LOT of racers and bikers alike read...

[Billy]

I brought this up a while back: it's not just a Post Classic problem, many clubs/events run F1, F2 type classes, under rules that don't seem to be stipulated anywhere. It's a strange state of affairs.......

What rules are clubs/events running under when 400/450's are allowed to enter an F2 race? MNZ rules stipulate 501-600cc 4 stroke multi's in Supersport and 600 Superstock.

Same with 600's entering F1. MNZ stipulate +700cc for 4 stroke multi's to enter Superbike.

It's all more than a bit fucked up.

Absolutely correct,Thats why almost as soon as I took over as chairman I contacted some of the club organisers and asked them to formulate some new F1/F2 rules,As soon as they have been ratified they will be on the MNZ website as non championship classes.

[slowpoke]

Absolutely correct,Thats why almost as soon as I took over as chairman I contacted some of the club organisers and asked them to formulate some new F1/F2 rules,As soon as they have been ratified they will be on the MNZ website as non championship classes.

Well done mate :niceone:

[codgyoleracer]

Ouch man I havent had a Pie for 3 weeks its them damn energy drinks lol also the titanium can be discussed with the surgeon on the 21st :)
Im agasint the 450 thing for budget reasons.. to many people have built 450s and blow up regularly and then the sport losses thoses people due to lossing intrest in because of the cost that has come with it, and at the moemenet how many 450s run in Posties? If you set the bar for people to run at 450 then chances are we may loose them in a years time and what would that do to the grids we have now?
The idea of changing frames was a half arsed idea and by no means am I aguring the point that you can or cant, Just flicked thru a 2 wheels mag regarding the katana that steve martin rode at PI and looking at the macs chassis, My very limited know of the pre82 I didnt know that, that was as per what you could get in that period, question was asked, question was answered and have not looked at that anymore.
By the way bike build at the moe is ive cut 8 kilos out of it already and 7 off me :):banana::banana:


If your modus operandi is that you are "against the 450's thing for budget reasons" - then i would quietly suggest that this not be part of your proposed remit as there is a good chance it will fall on deaf ears if on that basis.

Your own "percived budget" will be very different to someone elses. Another competitor might think your own investment is "excessive" and want the rules changed to suit their own affordability. Or someone that can afford to spend more will look at your own effort as half-arsed and job not done right.
Its all relevant aye.
Any rules rules must and are mostly written for the "good of the whole" , thats why they are so dammed hard to write.

My suggestion (& its not) if you wanted a cost limitation based set of rules is to be submitted , would be to draft to read along the lines of the superstock rules for the era. You would need to have specific rules for all major components of the bike. However a set of rules like that becomes quite difficult when they are trying to encompass so many varied models / designs.

The only other set of rules that appear effective in controlling investment - is the "buy back" rule.

Best have a re-think on how best to approach MNZ on that one.


GW

[malcy25]

Well, I don't recall that NZ had an F1 class in 1989, was it not Senior Production or something similar?

Formula one in NZ was in fact the first formula class we had from the late 70's or so. It changed names at various times to Superbike to mimic or hang off world superbike. That's where the Britten and various other specials or factory style race bikes used to hang out.

Open production ALSO existed through that period.

[malcy25]

Any rules rules must and are mostly written for the "good of the whole" , thats why they are so dammed hard to write.

My suggestion (& its not) if you wanted a cost limitation based set of rules is to be submitted , would be to draft to read along the lines of the superstock rules for the era. You would need to have specific rules for all major components of the bike. However a set of rules like that becomes quite difficult when they are trying to encompass so many varied models / designs.
GW

Hence why Postie classes in NZ are structured on a formula/capacity/age basis as it's a hell fo a lot easier to manage and control than "production" racing which would be nightmare....

[malcy25]

Not in the rulebook, Mr Chairman....

It would appear that the proposal put up by NZPCRA has been greeted with such acclamation that no one bothered to put in a remit.

Certainly in the SI CAMS are actively running to the pre 89 F3 regs as far as capacity goes - and trying to police ( politely) the 400cc limit for multis.
It would seem to be an idea whose time has come so someone should get off their arse and do the remit surely.

From attending the NZPCRA Inc AGM last year, this was put up as a way to get bikes BACK on the grid that people didn't want to run cos they didn't think they were competitive. Ie Pre 89 250 2 strokes. Early RGV's, TZR's, RZ250's, KR1's which basically had to run against CBR600's and the like.

The general theory was why not try it for a year where possible and see what it looks like. If it pans out, remit time. Japanese F3 rules for years allowed proddie basedr 250's in.

F3 was introduced in 87 as a replacement for the original 125 Racing class that struggled for entries and over time was tweaked. Why not pay lip service to the the rules that were in place at the time and use hindsight to build a class that fits some of the best aspects while preserving the bikes.

The big thing is that no where in the rules say this is proddie racing, but you can understand for parity purposes why the capcacity limits are what they are. EG 430cc for multi cylinder 2 stroke. Other wise you'll get RG500's in the Juniors....

Again as the "oh so perceptive" Codgy says, it's a bugger writing rules that are easy to read, meaningful, understandable and ensure a certain parity, but realistic to how it was - ie the bike that used to win should not suddenly become outclassed.....

[Billy]

Other wise you'll get RG500's in the Juniors....


As is the case at HD next week according to the confirmed entry list I have???

[malcy25]

As is the case at HD next week according to the confirmed entry list I have???

I haven't seen the list so you're one up on me.

As we know, you can have as many rules as you like, but if people don;t read the rule book...I'd suggest the entrant may not have.

Do you want to query that with Lynette and or Colleen? Or do you want me to drop them a note?

[malcy25]

As is the case at HD next week according to the confirmed entry list I have???

You missed one bike too..... Sorted that too.

Sorry GW....!

[Billy]

You missed one bike too..... Sorted that too.

Sorry GW....!

All good then,Was waiting til tomorrow for a final list,But if youve already taken care of it,All the better

[steveyb]

As is the case at HD next week according to the confirmed entry list I have???

Can you or someone post the list(s) somewhere, dude?

Cheers eers.

[Billy]

Can you or someone post the list(s) somewhere, dude?

Cheers eers.

Email sent

[DMack]

The RG500 is mine and it is definitely classed as a PC senior bike - I made an error on my entry form as i had been running in juniors on the 750 Duc previously :facepalm:, this has since been sorted although too late for the program.

[sharky]

The RG500 is mine and it is definitely classed as a PC senior bike - I made an error on my entry form as i had been running in juniors on the 750 Duc previously :facepalm:, this has since been sorted although too late for the program.

Bloody muppet - haha.

[NAR RG500]

The RG500 is mine and it is definitely classed as a PC senior bike - I made an error on my entry form as i had been running in juniors on the 750 Duc previously :facepalm:, this has since been sorted although too late for the program.

What a tool aye!!!!!! Muppet is an understatement!!!!!

[DMack]

Bloody muppet - haha.

Yeah so ill buy you a beer next time we're down at the Kiwi Tavern...:motu:





What a tool aye!!!!!! Muppet is an understatement!!!!!

And you too....oh wait last time, nek minute :puke:

[crazy man]

Ouch man I havent had a Pie in the last hour!! anyway l'm going to smash the pre 89 f1 lap record with the extra pie weight with my 489cc big bore kit l'v been running for years so sux on thatl new you had that big bore kit ! when you did a 1.35 out there:innocent:

[worm13]

l new you had that big bore kit ! when you did a 1.35 out there:innocent:

shhhh dont tell everyone... I used your colt cam stickers as the reason it was so fast to help to bring in some biz for ya:facepalm:

[crazy man]

shhhh dont tell everyone... I used your colt cam stickers as the reason it was so fast to help to bring in some biz for ya:facepalm:looks like things are looking up soon

[codgyoleracer]

You missed one bike too..... Sorted that too.

Sorry GW....!

HaHa , I'll survive mate :-)


What really concerns me is if 44cc makes such a big difference in the Juniors, - what am i to do agaist the 200cc bigger machines that compete against my little 1002cc bimota, - i may as well stop racing ......... :-)

Now where's that crank handle ?
GW

[malcy25]

HaHa , I'll survive mate :-)


What really concerns me is if 44cc makes such a big difference in the Juniors, - what am i to do agaist the 200cc bigger machines that compete against my little 1002cc bimota, - i may as well stop racing ......... :-)

Now where's that crank handle ?
GW

steady........!:laugh:

[steveyb]

HaHa , I'll survive mate :-)


What really concerns me is if 44cc makes such a big difference in the Juniors, - what am i to do agaist the 200cc bigger machines that compete against my little 1002cc bimota, - i may as well stop racing ......... :-)

Now where's that crank handle ?
GW


So there!! Nyah nyah nyah..... :shifty:

[Peter Smith]

HaHa , I'll survive mate :-)


What really concerns me is if 44cc makes such a big difference in the Juniors, - what am i to do agaist the 200cc bigger machines that compete against my little 1002cc bimota, - i may as well stop racing ......... :-)

Now where's that crank handle ?
GW

Size does matter, dispite what some woman say. You poor fella.:baby:
As for you stopping racing......sounds a good idea to me, but I'd still need Eddie Kat, Paul Gee, Dave Cole etc... to retire before I could win. :lol:

[Peter Smith]

You missed one bike too..... Sorted that too.

Sorry GW....!

How many bikes in PC class? (re at Hampton Downs)
As we are all racing together and the races are 8 - 12 laps (TT) will the speed difference lapping riders be an issue?
(Can't have GW lapping me :()

[MOTOXXX]

If your modus operandi is that you are "against the 450's thing for budget reasons" - then i would quietly suggest that this not be part of your proposed remit as there is a good chance it will fall on deaf ears if on that basis.

Your own "percived budget" will be very different to someone elses. Another competitor might think your own investment is "excessive" and want the rules changed to suit their own affordability. Or someone that can afford to spend more will look at your own effort as half-arsed and job not done right.
Its all relevant aye.
Any rules rules must and are mostly written for the "good of the whole" , thats why they are so dammed hard to write.

My suggestion (& its not) if you wanted a cost limitation based set of rules is to be submitted , would be to draft to read along the lines of the superstock rules for the era. You would need to have specific rules for all major components of the bike. However a set of rules like that becomes quite difficult when they are trying to encompass so many varied models / designs.

The only other set of rules that appear effective in controlling investment - is the "buy back" rule.

Best have a re-think on how best to approach MNZ on that one.


GW

agreed - budget reasons doesnt really come into it.

Example take say... a zxr400 and install a 450 kit - around $1500 all up.
TTS provide these kits for $960 at current exchange rate,

Take any standard 400 and upgrade the rear shock to Ohlins and do some work to the front forks.....$1200-$1800? How many 400's have Ohlins shocks and front end suspension work?

reliability hasnt really been an issue for most people at vic club providing you dont string them out. The only 450 i have seen blow up is neils and that was at nationals and wasnt legal for posties anyway.

neils zxr450 ran at vic club / Pac club for about 3 seasons and had no issues.

AJ ran his for about 1.5 seasons at vic club (ran on standard suspension instead of spending money on aftermarket stuff)
ive run mine for about 1.5 seasons and hasnt died yet (touch wood)

people will just spend the money in other areas and on sweet unobtainium rare kit parts. Like barrys bike has some primo stuff on it. id love a set of his marvic rims if i could find them, i bet they would be more than a 450 kit.

i hope 89 posties class continues to grow, its an awesome class.



Eamon

[codgyoleracer]

How many bikes in PC class? (re at Hampton Downs)
As we are all racing together and the races are 8 - 12 laps (TT) will the speed difference lapping riders be an issue?
(Can't have GW lapping me :()

HaHa , dont think that'll be happening Pete, weather outlook is looking good (ish)- hopefully theres a good turnout.

[codgyoleracer]

agreed - budget reasons doesnt really come into it.

Example take say... a zxr400 and install a 450 kit - around $1500 all up.
TTS provide these kits for $960 at current exchange rate,

Take any standard 400 and upgrade the rear shock to Ohlins and do some work to the front forks.....$1200-$1800? How many 400's have Ohlins shocks and front end suspension work?

reliability hasnt really been an issue for most people at vic club providing you dont string them out. The only 450 i have seen blow up is neils and that was at nationals and wasnt legal for posties anyway.

neils zxr450 ran at vic club / Pac club for about 3 seasons and had no issues.

AJ ran his for about 1.5 seasons at vic club (ran on standard suspension instead of spending money on aftermarket stuff)
ive run mine for about 1.5 seasons and hasnt died yet (touch wood)

people will just spend the money in other areas and on sweet unobtainium rare kit parts. Like barrys bike has some primo stuff on it. id love a set of his marvic rims if i could find them, i bet they would be more than a 450 kit.

i hope 89 posties class continues to grow, its an awesome class.



Eamon


+1 on that. There was an awesome turn out of posties at Hampton Downs, 40+ bikes all in, - and it made a great display of nostalgia for many of the spectators.

[codgyoleracer]

How many bikes in PC class? (re at Hampton Downs)
As we are all racing together and the races are 8 - 12 laps (TT) will the speed difference lapping riders be an issue?
(Can't have GW lapping me :()

Two strong 2nd place finishes Pete, ya gotta be pleased with the times and the results - good effort.

[Peter Smith]

Two strong 2nd place finishes Pete, ya gotta be pleased with the times and the results - good effort.

Thanks Glen, yes I'm very please, my new PB is 1:11.4. I've still got a way to go to catch up with you though :pinch:.
It was a great event. Now I can sit back and watch Moto GP all winter :laugh:
Well done with your F3 title and multiple trophies.:yes:

[Mystic13]

Guys just a question for the learned. Just how full are the pre89/pre82 grids right now? How full have they been?
Its just that if they aren't full then why not let people sort of run what they brung?

Hampton Downs Round 4... was it 39 bikes? or 37.

[malcy25]

Hampton Downs Round 4... was it 39 bikes? or 37.


Dunno, I was looking for my glasses to see the start lights as I had a bad qualifying time and was that far back....I thought I might have to do a hill start if I was any further.....