How do accidents happen?

[pritch]

OK, this is British but is probably not entirely irrelevant here. More detail than we're used to seeing and guess what? It's not all speed and alcohol...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/road-safety/8702111/How-do-accidents-happen.html

[oneofsix]

OK, this is British but is probably not entirely irrelevant here. More detail than we're used to seeing and guess what? It's not all speed and alcohol...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/road-safety/8702111/How-do-accidents-happen.html

Entirely relevant. I did react to the driver error bit, I wonder if that would lower or if we would get a better understanding of what caused the driver error if aircraft type black boxes were used, including voice recordings.
Would have been nice to have an opportunity to read the report but seriously doubt I would bother wading through it.

[FJRider]

This article was posted a while back.

In this thread.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/146403-4kmh-tolerance-for-Waitangi-Weekend-until-29-February?p=1130256726#post1130256726

[slofox]

Many moons ago now, I saw a doco on TV called "Final Factor" which looked closely at the fact that most accidents were not caused by one factor on it's own but rather by a combination of factors stacking up together. The point of the vid was to encourage drivers/riders to avoid at least one of the multiple factors to stop the crash happening. Made good sense to me at the time and is still in my mind on the roads today.

[FJRider]

The point of the vid was to encourage drivers/riders to avoid at least one of the multiple factors to stop the crash happening. Made good sense to me at the time and is still in my mind on the roads today.

Easy to say ... but often the factors are outside the riders control.

ie: Another person speeding on a wet road. The rider may well be cautious .... but if the other vehicle loses control at the wrong time ... for that rider ...

Using this theory ... Your actions can be a factor in somebody elses accident.

[slofox]

Easy to say ... but often the factors are outside the riders control.

ie: Another person speeding on a wet road. The rider may well be cautious .... but if the other vehicle loses control at the wrong time ... for that rider ...

Using this theory ... Your actions can be a factor in somebody elses accident.

Yep, absolutely - this was also emphasised in the vid.

[FJRider]

Yep, absolutely - this was also emphasised in the vid.

On this topic ... years ago, I was following another rider through a river gorge. The road wasn't that wide. He took a corner wide ... almost hitting a vehicle coming the other way. To avoid that rider ... the car left the road. That rider never saw the car leave the road and continued on. I stopped.

When he came back to find out what happened to me ... he could not be convinced HE was at fault in this accident.

[oneofsix]

On this topic ... years ago, I was following another rider through a river gorge. The road wasn't that wide. He took a corner wide ... almost hitting a vehicle coming the other way. To avoid that rider ... the car left the road. That rider never saw the car leave the road and continued on. I stopped.

When he came back to find out what happened to me ... he could not be convinced HE was at fault in this accident.

I agree with him in regard fault for that event, he was a contributing factor or cause, and the alternative crash could have made him a hood ornament, but for that event the driver's reaction to his action was also a factor (also possibly a factor in the rider still being alive afterwards).

I tend not to use accident because deliberate as human factors caused the event but not sure if it was a crash or just a drive off with no damage.

[FJRider]

I agree with him in regard fault for that event, he was a contributing factor or cause, and the alternative crash could have made him a hood ornament, but for that event the driver's reaction to his action was also a factor (also possibly a factor in the rider still being alive afterwards).



So ... if the car made no effort to avoid him ... he would have been at fault ... :wacko:

Or would that be just another factor ... ???

[oneofsix]

So ... if the car made no effort to avoid him ... he would have been at fault ... :wacko:

Or would that be just another factor ... ???

Another factor, one outside the riders control. Often the thing preventing us from accepting the stupidity of our own actions is the accusation. I was a bit flippant in the post.

Having had a crash avoiding hitting the other car that caused it and being told tough luck because you didn't hit him he gets away with it I know how frustrating that can be, in my case the other driver accepted he had been a dork, didn't help with insurance in those days. And that AA 3rd party add annoys the dickins out of me for the same reason, he might have cause it but wasn't in it so bet his insurance doesn't pay for it.

BTW was it a crash?

And back to your example, serious this time. What was the factor that caused him to run wide, did he say?

[FJRider]

Another factor, one outside the riders control. Often the thing preventing us from accepting the stupidity of our own actions is the accusation. I was a bit flippant in the post.

Having had a crash avoiding hitting the other car that caused it and being told tough luck because you didn't hit him he gets away with it I know how frustrating that can be, in my case the other driver accepted he had been a dork, didn't help with insurance in those days. And that AA 3rd party add annoys the dickins out of me for the same reason, he might have cause it but wasn't in it so bet his insurance doesn't pay for it.

BTW was it a crash?

And back to your example, serious this time. What was the factor that caused him to run wide, did he say?

Various insurance Coy's have various policys ... read the fine print before you sign. But read a few policys of a few coy's FIRST.

Yes it was a crash ... Car vs Tree ... serious but not fatal. (car written off)

Took the wrong line into a previous corner ... putting him in the wrong line for the next corner. Too fast for the conditions was the "official" verdict ... but with the right lines ... should have been no problem. Was charged with causing an injury accident. Was walking for six months.

[oneofsix]

Various insurance Coy's have various policys ... read the fine print before you sign. But read a few policys of a few coy's FIRST.

Yes it was a crash ... Car vs Tree ... serious but not fatal. (car written off)

Took the wrong line into a previous corner ... putting him in the wrong line for the next corner. Too fast for the conditions was the "official" verdict ... but with the right lines ... should have been no problem. Was charged with causing an injury accident. Was walking for six months.

You now raise an issue with these types of studies. Official verdict was too fast for the conditions and that is what the study would work out their figures on but it was the wrong line. I can see that to argue it would be meet with a response of it makes no real difference but putting it down to speed versus bad judgement or poor road position does make it sound different. I guess speed and road position were both factors.

[FJRider]

You now raise an issue with these types of studies. Official verdict was too fast for the conditions and that is what the study would work out their figures on but it was the wrong line. I can see that to argue it would be meet with a response of it makes no real difference but putting it down to speed versus bad judgement or poor road position does make it sound different. I guess speed and road position were both factors.

It was a 35 km (advisory) corner. (Where they get the "conditions" factor from) He was a "bit" faster than that. HE fucked up the corner. Dry road ... no loose surface ... I was well back ... the road familiar to both of us.

The "failing to keep left" issue was raised ... (another factor) and I felt for the guy in the car. In the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Str8 Jacket]

If only people realised that death is permenant and it doesn't matter who's fault it was.......

Good link. Ta.

[oneofsix]

It was a 35 km (advisory) corner. (Where they get the "conditions" factor from) He was a "bit" faster than that. HE fucked up the corner. Dry road ... no loose surface ... I was well back ... the road familiar to both of us.

The "failing to keep left" issue was raised ... (another factor) and I felt for the guy in the car. In the wrong place at the wrong time.

"In the wrong place at the wrong time" another factor. :shutup:

[pritch]

Sorry I'm guilty of a repost, I did check. Must've asked a silly question.

I had some experience with safety on construction sites and more recently have done a short course in accident investigation. It always struck me that there are usually multiple factors involved in any serious incident and that there will be a number of near misses for every injury that occurs. When all of the factors are aligned though, it's not a near miss and someone gets hurt.

I remember one occasion, a dogman waiting while somebody fetched the correct strops, being shouted at by an agitated supervisor, "You've got a safety margin, use it!"

That's not what safety margins are for.

This also applies to riding, if you find you are having a few close shaves, back off, and have a think about what you are doing.

[Trade_nancy]

On this topic (sort of, I guess)....3 bikes mine included..all with a pillion onboard did a trip from Manawatu up to New Plymouth return last Sunday. Went up on the scenic SH45 coastal road. Nice day, all going well..got to somewherez like 40-50 km from NP...still in the "boonies" and an untethered goat meandered onto the RH road just as the lead bike (HD Wideglide) got within spitting range of it. Rider's gut instinct was - "I can't stop, I'll brace and ride up and over it and hope 365Kg of HD will be enough to make a path through it"....I was next bike and saw the thing unfold. Goatee wisely decided to plant hoofs and STOP as the HD went by....the goat turned back to where it came from...and then, changed it's mind and stepped back again in my path. All this took maybe 2-3 seconds. I had slowed down maybe 50kph and was just starting to reaccelerate - so was able to easily swerve around it.
So - no way to anticipate an animal coming onto the road like that. BUT I remain eternally grateful to myself for being a safe following distance behind my mate in front. If he went over or under the goat...I was going to be able to stop. Hadn't always been that good and many times on the ride - I was tailing him closer. Lesson learnt....hopefully not to be forgotten.