Red Flag procedure question

[That Guy]

I wanted to put this in a seperate thread not the awful incident that occured on Satuday's thread as I don't want to provoke emotions there - however that incident has raised a question which I'm not sure on, perhaps someone here can enlighten me;

I know in NZ when the red flag comes out we form up again on the grid (at least in the races I have been in this is what we have done) but isn't the correct procedure actually to go into pit lane and form up on the dummy grid? I guess part of the problem is sometimes, by the time you see the flag you are past pit entrance. Perhaps then the procdure should be circulate slowly for another lap and then enter pit lane? What does the rule book say?

[bugjuice]

I always thought that was the case, altho I've neer raced under NZ regulations before. I was always tought that when the red flag is shown anywhere (and usually all around) the track, you proceed straight to pits at slow pace and wait/reform on the dummy grid, leaving the track completely empty.. Made sense to me..

[Mitch]

I am unsure of what the rule book says but my understanding has always been, carefully slow right down and head to the dummy grid, do not ever under any circumstance stop on the race track.

In this particular situation on Sat there was a 4 bike incident on the back straight in the first lap, people and burning bike's scattered around on the track. The officials were trying to keep us safe by keeping us away from it and also get the ambulance out there as quickly as possible as at least 2 of the 4 guys involved had been hurt.

With the best of intentions, the result was catastrophic!!

Multiple accidents........ diverted attention......... I am not exactly sure which rule MNZ plan to change to stop us from being human!!

Proceedures and regulations are important for the safety of everyone envolved in motorcycle racing, BUT there is no *one* set of rules that is going to be full proof in every situation. There are just too many variables!!

Don't get me wrong, I am in no doubt that a review of the rules is in order and changes do need to be made accordingly.

But I am also under no illusion's...... Those of us that chose to race provoke the limits of both ourselves and our machinery. To ever think we couldn't die doing so would just be naive!!!!!!

[That Guy]

Multiple accidents........ diverted attention......... I am not exactly sure which rule MNZ plan to change to stop us from being human!!



But I am also under no illusion's...... Those of us that chose to race provoke the limits of both ourselves and our machinery. To ever think we couldn't die doing so would just be naive!!!!!!

Aye - agree with that. Just wondering what the rule book stated was the correct procedure is all.

[TwoSeven]

I was always tought, stop racing, put your hand up to indicate this, slow down nicely and 'leave the track' by the first available exit which should be indicated - your not suppost to carry on round to the normal exit if there is a closer one.

This reform up on the dummy grid or back on the track is new to me. I would expect someone at the track exits telling me either to go wait in pitlane or forget it and wait for an announcement. Many tracks i've seen have a form up area in pitlane and you are expected to go back there to find out what to do.

[Mitch]

This reform up on the dummy grid or back on the track is new to me. I would expect someone at the track exits telling me either to go wait in pitlane or forget it and wait for an announcement.

Reforming on pit lane blocks it and would hinder ambulances and pick up vehicles getting on and off the track...........
Reforming on the dummy grid and awaiting further instructions from the officials ie back out to finish race or back to your pit. Has been the course of action in the years I have been racing.

JUST CHECKED THE MNZ RULES AND UNDER FLAGS RED FLAG: ALL RIDERS STOP.

[sAsLEX]

JUST CHECKED THE MNZ RULES AND UNDER FLAGS RED FLAG: ALL RIDERS STOP.

is STOP defined anywhere else in the rules? it does seem a bit abrut a rule.

[Mitch]

*When the red flag has been displayed riders must immediately stop racing and return slowly to the grid*

There are also a few bits and pieces regarding who is allowed to use the red flag but that all I could find.

[Kickaha]

Whenever WSB or MotoGP have a red flag displayed they all immediatly slow down, sit up, and raise their left hand, whilst circulating slowly to the pit exit and heading for their respective pit garages... this seems to work fine.

I asume these rules are international and alays seem to work.

We operate under that procedure at BEARs meetings after a Red flag incident identical to that one in which stopped riders were hit from behind on the start finish line and I consider it makes more sense than stopping on the track despite what the rule book may say

We have been told that at every riders briefing without fail since the accident happened which was well over a year ago and I have no doubt we will still be hearing it for years to come and with good reason. :yes:

[laRIKin]

*When the red flag has been displayed riders must immediately stop racing and return slowly to the grid*

That's what I have done in the past.
With some times leg out or arm up to show that you are travelling slowly.
And this also helps to warn any other rider that has not seen the flags.

A real tragedy what has happened.
And we feel for all that are involved and for their families and their friends.

:grouphug:

[gav]

Was on first lap wasnt it? Often a red flag on the first lap was due to a jump start, so you'd cruise back round to regrid for another start.

[Bob]

From what I found when running my usual newsround earlier today:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=14765

It would seem that the problem came from the red flag being shown at the start/finish line ONLY, with the yellow flag being shown elsewhere on the track.

As far as I am aware, this differs from rules used elsewhere (pretty sure British superbike championship and World level), in that if there is a red flag incident, then the marshalls show red flags around the entire circuit.

It would appear that the rules regarding the flags shown are to be reviewed, with a change possible "within two weeks".

Whatever the outcome of discussions regarding the rules, it is a real tragedy and sympathies to all affected. But let's hope any rule changes ensure that something like this does not happen again.

[Drunken Monkey]

The changes sound promising, but sometimes there's still going to be a certain order of events and conditions that just lead to further accidents.

The second incident in this accident:

http://www.bikepics.com/movies/000183/

also happened under flag conditions. Please ignore the uninformed commentary - there is a website that details the events correctly (noone actually died). Unfortunately the site doesn't link the original source any more, but the general gist was the second group of riders (3) did come through at reduced speed (they were no longer at race pace), however the 2 lead bikes paired away to avoid the accident and the third rider looked up, saw the downed bike & marshals but had nowhere to go.

I would be disappointed to see motorsport safety go too far. People must accept there is an element of risk - as long as protocol was followed, there's no reason to launch inquiries and (heaven forbid!) try and make the safety officials personally responsible. None of us want to see the marshals charged by the police like the 4 Rally safety marshals were a few years back.

On the flip side, it seems to me if the 'flag status' is red, then all the flags displayed on the track should be red. Actually, that's how I thought it worked anyway, so I was surprised to read the red flag was only displayed on the start/finish straight. Question is, would a red flag by the corner have made a difference - the subsequent accident/s may have occured for a similar reason to the example above.

Watching bikes (or cars) going around a circuit all observing the 2 second rule and speed limited to 60km/h isn't exactly 'my cup of tea'.