Wellington City Council: Fine for using a bus lane in Manners Mall

[Brayden]

OK SO.

I used to work from 12am-8am night shifts at Skynet Internet Cafe in Manners Mall. WCC send me a fine for using the bus lane on my motorbike. I need to use this bus lane as i park my motorcycle inside the workplace, so when I work nights people don't mess with my bike. Twice now its been screwed with by drunk people costing me 300$ in repairs so far.

I need to use the bus lane to access my work in Manners Mall, where I park inside, with my bosses permission, otherwise people will break my motorcycle.

The time of the incident was 5:43 PM. I went in early to work to play some video games with my customers before my work started. The fine is $150.

Personally I think this is ridiculous, I don't know who filed the complaint, maybe it was a parking warden asshole, but anyway.

IS IT POSSIBLE TO GET OFF THIS FINE?? I've never disputed a fine so anyone who has experience with this sort of stuff who has any good advice will be helpful.

This is the rule they gave me, "This is an offence under rule 2.3 (1) (f) of the Land Transport (Road User) Rule 2004).

The rule is - A driver, when driving, must not use—
"a special vehicle lane reserved for a specific class or classes of vehicle unless—
(i) the vehicle is one of the class or classes of vehicle for which the lane is reserved; or
(ii) the vehicle is an emergency vehicle being used in an emergency."

However 1.6 says, "bus lane means a lane reserved by a marking or sign installed at the start of the lane and at each point at which the lane resumes after an intersection for the use of—
(a) buses; and
(b) cycles, mopeds, and motorcycles (unless 1 or more are specifically excluded by the sign)"

I think There is a no right turn sign which says "Except Buses" into manners mall. I will double check this on my way home.

Remember I need to use the bus lane to get to work and park inside, (my work is on manners mall street) otherwise I have to risk my bike being broken, which has happened twice already in designated motorcycle parks, during my night shifts.


THANKS IN ADVANCE :msn-wink:

[Devil]

You might have to get off it and push...

[nzmikey]

You might have to get off it and push...

well said, I had come here to say this

[Clockwork]

Must admit, I thought
"(b) cycles, mopeds, and motorcycles (unless 1 or more are specifically excluded by the sign)" was your "get out of jail" although I don't know what sign-age exists down there.

I would have thought anyone that needs "access" would have been allowed too.

[Scuba_Steve]

Law says you can use it, not once does that lane specificity (that's the key word here) exclude motorbikes, without the exclusion Govt law says you can use it simple as that.

Be prepared they will try shit like "buses only" (as the sign says) means only buses are allowed because I believe the contractors only get paid on conviction & the council don't really care, but that is an specific inclusion NOT an exclusion as required by law so cycles, motorbikes & mopeds are still legally allowed. Biggest problem is if you wanna fight they make it a pain in the ass to do so regardless of your right or innocence

[Bassmatt]

I agree with scuba." Buses only" is not an exclusion but you will have a fight on your hands unless there are bus lane signs elsewhere that actually exclude vehicles eg Buses Only No Motorcycles.

[Hoarn]

I strongly suspect that they will come back with 1.6 doesn't apply as the "bus only" area in Manners Mall is not a Bus lane. What?!? I hear you cry! Yes, if you take this further you may find that "special vehicle lane" under rule 2.3 (1) (f) of the Land Transport (Road User) Rule 2004) and "bus lane" via 1.6 are 2 entirely different things, even if they, as in this case, appear to be exactly the same.

I wish you the best of luck though. Given it's required for you to travel along there to get to your work, that's the exclusion I'd try to go for if I was you.

[Scuba_Steve]

I strongly suspect that they will come back with 1.6 doesn't apply as the "bus only" area in Manners Mall is not a Bus lane. What?!? I hear you cry! Yes, if you take this further you may find that "special vehicle lane" under rule 2.3 (1) (f) of the Land Transport (Road User) Rule 2004) and "bus lane" via 1.6 are 2 entirely different things, even if they, as in this case, appear to be exactly the same.

I wish you the best of luck though. Given it's required for you to travel along there to get to your work, that's the exclusion I'd try to go for if I was you.

But then they haven't ticketed him under 2.3 neither (not that it makes a difference really), they've gone 1.6 meaning still for all intensive purposes he's still legal in this case.

Also you have to note the interpretation

special vehicle lane means a lane defined by signs or mark- ings as restricted to a specified class or classes of vehicle; and includes a bus lane, a transit lane, a cycle lane, and a light rail vehicle lane.

So a special vehicle lane is a bus lane (vise versa) making it 1 in the same & bringing us back to -

bus lane means a lane reserved by a marking or sign installed at the start of the lane and at each point at which the lane re- sumes after an intersection for the use of— (a) buses; and
(b) cycles, mopeds, and motorcycles (unless 1 or more are specifically excluded by the sign)

... And lawyers get paid excessive amounts for this, need to order my 1 of those law degrees from the interwebs me thinks :shifty::lol:

[Hoarn]

But then they haven't ticketed him under 2.3 neither (not that it makes a difference really), they've gone 1.6 meaning still for all intensive purposes he's still legal in this case.

Also you have to note the interpretation

special vehicle lane means a lane defined by signs or mark- ings as restricted to a specified class or classes of vehicle; and includes a bus lane, a transit lane, a cycle lane, and a light rail vehicle lane.

So a special vehicle lane is a bus lane (vise versa) making it 1 in the same & bringing us back to -

bus lane means a lane reserved by a marking or sign installed at the start of the lane and at each point at which the lane re- sumes after an intersection for the use of— (a) buses; and
(b) cycles, mopeds, and motorcycles (unless 1 or more are specifically excluded by the sign)

... And lawyers get paid excessive amounts for this, need to order my 1 of those law degrees from the interwebs me thinks :shifty::lol:

Hah, you had more motivation than me and actually looked it up :niceone:

I wonder if they'd try and say that manners mall is not a bus lane, it's a "Bus Only" lane... hehe. Ah well, if common sense prevails clearly Brayden should be sweet..... but has common sense prevailed so far I ask you?

[MSTRS]

This is a local body council and it's fines department. Where is the room for commonsense?

[Brayden]

Handed in my appeal today will post back with results when they get back to me

[90s]

Handed in my appeal today will post back with results when they get back to me

Good luck - let us know

[caseye]

I'd suggest you get in touch with Jon Visser.
Go here.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/member.php/25699-Jon-Visser.
Explain the situation and see what he can do. I'm sure if you are entitled to use the lane that he will confirm it and if not I'm also sure that he could have some common sense applied to a rule which precludes the crossing of a lane/special road to access your place of work.
All is not lost.
Call Jon!

[Brayden]

I just got mail back yesterday and they said I still need to pay the fine. They're saying it's not a bus lane and that it is a 'Bus Only' specified lane for bus use only. I raged and threw it in the bin so the letters gone. Silly on my part I should have held onto it. Should I send Jon a PM?

p.s. they also said work was no excuse

[riffer]

Brayden,

I'm talking with some folks at Council about this. I'll let you know if there's anything I can do to help this go away.

Simon (BRONZ)

[Brayden]

Brayden,

I'm talking with some folks at Council about this. I'll let you know if there's anything I can do to help this go away.

Simon (BRONZ)

Sounds good man let me know how it goes!

[Scuba_Steve]

I just got mail back yesterday and they said I still need to pay the fine. They're saying it's not a bus lane and that it is a 'Bus Only' specified lane for bus use only.

So, a bus lane??? :facepalm:
personally I'd be replying in a not so nice way, maybee with some white powder for that added kick. But thats me, not recommended for everybody :no:

[Brayden]

No shit its bloody obscene. I'm thinking of taking it to court because it's just ridiculous. I'm also wondering who actually reported me to the council in the first place??

[Scuba_Steve]

No shit its bloody obscene. I'm thinking of taking it to court because it's just ridiculous. I'm also wondering who actually reported me to the council in the first place??

it was probably a walk safe person. They quite often have one at that fuck-up of an intersection noting down & taking pics.

[craigdek]

What the hell is a "walk safe". I'm new to these islands so please explain. Not even six months here and one old man has already taken me out and destroyed my two wheels.

[oneofsix]

What the hell is a "walk safe". I'm new to these islands so please explain. Not even six months here and one old man has already taken me out and destroyed my two wheels.

A parking warden in disguise? They both work for the same company that is contracted to WCC but as to what they do :scratch: Keep walkers safe in the city with the most j walkers - fail. Protect walkers from buses - fail. Provide tourist advice help - :not: I too will be interested in the answer but scuba might be on to it.

[mashman]

What street?

"‘No Entry’ restrictions are in place for the short length of Victoria Street between Dixon Street and
Manners Street (in the northbound direction only). These restrictions allow for use by buses,
taxis and service vehicles with business in Manners Street only, between the hours of 6:00am
and 6:00pm Monday to Friday".

Is your bike a service vehicle with a business on Manners Street? This might help, it might not (http://www.wellington.govt.nz/projects/ongoing/pdfs/buslane-monitoringsurveys.pdf)... good luck

[nudemetalz]

Hey just to let you know.
Jon Visser left us,..err,.. I mean WCC Infrastructure about 2 months ago.
I've only just spotted this thread.

Let me do some digging and post back on Monday.

[Max Preload]

Handed in my appeal today will post back with results when they get back to meYou shouldn't have done this - filling out their crap is nothing more than a fishing expedition to determine the defence you will use if, when you receive the default rejection letter, you decide to proceed to a defended hearing. Simply write "I deny this offence. Please advise me of the date for a defended hearing." Don't play their fucking game - make them play yours.

[nudemetalz]

I have asked various people here.

They categorically state that it is a "Bus-lane only at all times. No cycles or motorcycles at any time".

[hash]

i used to run the red light from courtney to manners each morning, now that i know i was breaking two rules, i feel twice as good

[sleemanj]

I am assuming we are taking about the Manners Mall bus route, and I think, you are probably out of luck on it.

Going from images on google, it looks like this road is not the usual Bus lane type marking, it's not green, and it doesn't say Bus lane on it, I don't know if this is a legislative requirement but certainly it appears to be the normal marking at least in Chch, Wgtn and Auck.

The signs are one that is a standard "No Entry", and one that is "Except Buses". This indicates to me that the road is not available for use but a specific exemption is given to buses to allow them to do so.

If you want to hear it in court, you are going to have to convince the judge that it is a bus lane and did not explicitly exclude you.

I think you would have a hard job arguing that this is officially a bus lane for starters. Certainly I think the intent is clear by road markings and signage that this is a closed road only available to buses.

[Flip]

The law says a motorcycle may use a bus lane unless it is specifically excluded.

The sign just says it is a bus lane, therefore we can use it.

[rastuscat]

You shouldn't have done this - filling out their crap is nothing more than a fishing expedition to determine the defence you will use if, when you receive the default rejection letter, you decide to proceed to a defended hearing. Simply write "I deny this offence. Please advise me of the date for a defended hearing." Don't play their fucking game - make them play yours.

I tend to agree, although it's not your game either. It's the legal system.

The Council is not the legal body who decides on innocence or guilt, two JPs at the District Court are. Only they can make you pay a fine. You have to play the legal game though.

At this stage, until determined by the JPs, it's just the Councils allegation that you've broken the rules.

My advice would be to plead the case Scuba has outlined i.e. motorcycles are allowed in bus lanes, and it's a bus lane. The JPs have to be satisfied that an objective outsider would have known it was against the rules before they'll order you to pay the fine.

Beware though, if you get ordered to pay the fine, you'll get some court costs added on.

[NZ_Blair]

Did you decide to defend it in court? All good really, and at end of the day, it costs more than your ticket to do so for the council ... value for money I say!

[Brayden]

Nope won't be taking it to court, can't be bothered with the effort.. Will be paying it off $10 a week instead :niceone:

[Scuba_Steve]

thats a shame, cause legally you were in the right. But then these legal scams & extortions rely on it being to "hard" & time consuming the systems setup in their favor cause the law is not & they gots moneys to make

[breakaway]

Beware though, if you get ordered to pay the fine, you'll get some court costs added on.

How much are the court costs?

[rastuscat]

How much are the court costs?

Bugger, thought youd ask that.

Have heard anywhere from $45 to $135. I actually don't know how they work it out, It appears to depend on the nature of the charge, the court etc. maybe someone here can specify.

Remember tho, get a ticket for not wearing your seatbelt, ka Ching, $150. Defend it and get found guilty, ka Ching, $150 plus costs.

If you get caught driving while pissed and insist on having a blood sample taken, remember that if your sample is over (and almost exclusively, if your breath was over your blood will be over), you'll be paying for the fallout of the doctor and the analysts fee too.

The analysts fee for a drug analysis like class c is $680. Imagine that, a lawbreaker actually having to pay the cost of being proved guilty.

[rastuscat]

How much are the court costs?

They are going to build a new court in Christchurch. it's an earthquake thing. Court costs there are around $17 million.

Don't break the law in Christchurch.

[Scuba_Steve]

Bugger, thought youd ask that.

Have heard anywhere from $45 to $135. I actually don't know how they work it out, It appears to depend on the nature of the charge, the court etc. maybe someone here can specify.


Last times I was there twas 30$ been a few years since I last went tho. I've also heard this 130$ figure but never experienced it myself, must be reserved for actual crimes?

[rastuscat]

Last times I was there twas 30$ been a few years since I last went tho. I've also heard this 130$ figure but never experienced it myself, must be reserved for actual crimes?

........and you, of course Skoober........