Regulator/Rectifiers. Bring your knowledge

[Fast Eddie]

I just got home and wondered what stunk in my garage, then was surrounded by smoke. I hopped off the bike and she was smoking well, shut her down and pulled off some fairings to find the regulator/rectifier was smoking away heavily.
I'm going to safely assume its rooted.

I want to know, how much damage can be done to the rest of the electrical system if the reg/rec fails? I think I rode it a fair way before I got home and noticed aye.

I've blown a reg/rec on a cbr600 before and that just led to endless problems with charging system, general wiring and frying CDI's..

Anyone explain what the reg/rec (apart from just regulating the current or whatever) does and how much potential damage can be caused if the reg/rec fails and you keep running the engine. Should I be checking other parts now that I have been running the bike with damaged eletrical components? I don't want to just replace the reg/rec and then have other parts start to fail on me one by one on the side of the road eh.

Also - anyone got a reg/rec for a '97 Blade?

Cheers

[FJRider]

Take a look here.

http://www.wemoto.com/info/Regulator_Rectifier/

[Fast Eddie]

Cheers man - also, anyone want to confirm or correct my thoughts.. my battery was playing up lately.. last few months. would go flat by itself after 1-2 weeks of no use.. could a dying battery over work the reg/rec and cause it to fail.. or more likely a failing reg/rec has rooted the battery?

either way it could be an early warning next time..

[FJRider]

Cheers man - also, anyone want to confirm or correct my thoughts.. my battery was playing up lately.. last few months. would go flat by itself after 1-2 weeks of no use.. could a dying battery over work the reg/rec and cause it to fail.. or more likely a failing reg/rec has rooted the battery?

either way it could be an early warning next time..

Or the battery was getting fucked by the reg/rec.

Check all the bulbs too ...

[Fast Eddie]

Or the battery was getting fucked by the reg/rec.

Check all the bulbs too ...

yea all light bulbs/indicators/horn working. a good sign for now

[neels]

I had a rec/reg fail on my xj600, cooked the battery but the rest of the electrics survived ok. Check the level of the battery, if it's been overcharging it may have boiled off some electrolyte.

If you have a multimeter, check for shorts to ground between the 3 phase inputs from the alternator and the case.

With the bike running the AC output from the alternator should be upwards of 40VAC between phases

[ducatilover]

Check the electrolyte in the battery, has probably boiled out.
You may find one or two of the output wires have melted from heat on the reg too.

Fuck wemoto, go eBay! :2thumbsup

[paturoa]

The 2 most common fail impacts result from it going short or open. There are others.

When it goes short, typically all of the current that the battery and / or generation can muster passes straight it to ground and the magic blue smoke comes out of the reg itself. This typically can cause other wires in the loom to melt their insulation or cook whatever generation thingie you have. Sometimes fuses blow, but not often.

The other, is going open. This can cause smoke from the reg as it blows itself, but unlikely. The other impacts can be over voltage into the other componenets and or loom. Unliklely to impact anything major expect cooking the battery if its been happening for a while.

[DrunkenMistake]

Usually if the reg/rec has gone, the stator is probably gone, and your battery will be shagged

[ducatilover]

Usually if the reg/rec has gone, the stator is probably gone, and your battery will be shagged

Not even ow

[bogan]

There is an excellent reg/rect/stator/battery fault finding flow chart around somewhere, google for it, print it out, and use it often!

[spanner spinner]

I have worked on heaps of these including my own, if the bike was still running cdi etc should still be ok as it has overvoltage protection built in.
You will need to test the stator. Test all yellow wires to earth should be no connection to earth if there it is stuffed. Then test across the pairs of yellow wires you are looking for 0.4 to 0.9 of a ohm if it tests more than the higher figure it's stuffed, then check with the bike running it should be more than 15 volts at idle 50 to 60 volts unloaded at 4-5 thousand rpm.
There are two other problems that blades suffer from check the stator connector under the seat blades have a extra connector in the feed line to the reg/rec that burns up and goes high resistance, this can cause the reg/rec to burn out.
When you replace the reg rec put in a later version (cbr1100xx injected cbr1000rr etc) these are a large finned unit that is heaps more reliable than the standard reg rec. there is a little rewiring to fit the better unit and you can remove the extra connection under the seat. I have seen a couple of blades that have caught fire due to the connector under the seat as it sits right under a hole that opens up into the seat foam if the connector gets hot enough to short out it sets fire to the seat foam.
Eurobike do a aftermarket reg/rec of the large finned type that you should be able to get through your local dealer part number is DA REG35/3 this is the unit that I usually fit.

[Juzz976]

Motorcycle reg/rect work by controlling the amount of current that is shunting or bypassing back through to alternator windings to drop the voltage (regulates voltage). The rectifier part is just diodes that allow current to flow in one direction only, your battery smooths out alot of the pulses from the rectified DC Current.

Theres usually a pair of diodes per stator winding to rectify the ac into DC, if a diode or diodes die the remaining diodes have to supply more current putting additional load on the windings that have good diodes. They may also get hot, however if the regulator works fine the system does not experience any overvoltages.

If the reg has a bad connection, is not heat sinked properly to frame or has had damage from overvoltages then it will continue to degrade and heating effect is snowballed, this in turn does not allow the reg to drain off enough current and an overvoltage situation arises. possible damage may occur to electronics if the battery is unable to filter out the excess voltage. However it is likely that the battery is getting boiled by the overvoltage.

Testing a tricky thing if you don't have much multimeter experience or access to oscillioscope.

[Fast Eddie]

mean, cheers for all the info people. That was great.

another quick question, I obviously shouldnt run the bike without the reg/rec plugged in or is it ok? I just want to test the stator before I order some new parts incase I need anything else.. but was thinking if I test it with bike running while broken reg is connected, running while broken reg disconnected or if I have to replace the reg first then test.

I'm hoping I havent shorted out or melted any wires in the loom. there is nothing visible.. but who knows whats happening under the insulation/covers aye..

hoping I'v just fried the reg and everything else is sweet and that I can just plug a new one in and carry on. all lights/instruments were working fine and engine ran/started fine.. so hoping for the best!!

gotta finish of building my 2 stroke rather than be wasting time on this old diesel eh

and as a final note.. I no longer think hondas are especially reliable.. my kawasakis both gave me less problems than the 5 hondas I've owned (which have all broken down several times each)

[Fast Eddie]

I have worked on heaps of these including my own, if the bike was still running cdi etc should still be ok as it has overvoltage protection built in.
You will need to test the stator. Test all yellow wires to earth should be no connection to earth if there it is stuffed. Then test across the pairs of yellow wires you are looking for 0.4 to 0.9 of a ohm if it tests more than the higher figure it's stuffed, then check with the bike running it should be more than 15 volts at idle 50 to 60 volts unloaded at 4-5 thousand rpm.
There are two other problems that blades suffer from check the stator connector under the seat blades have a extra connector in the feed line to the reg/rec that burns up and goes high resistance, this can cause the reg/rec to burn out.
When you replace the reg rec put in a later version (cbr1100xx injected cbr1000rr etc) these are a large finned unit that is heaps more reliable than the standard reg rec. there is a little rewiring to fit the better unit and you can remove the extra connection under the seat. I have seen a couple of blades that have caught fire due to the connector under the seat as it sits right under a hole that opens up into the seat foam if the connector gets hot enough to short out it sets fire to the seat foam.
Eurobike do a aftermarket reg/rec of the large finned type that you should be able to get through your local dealer part number is DA REG35/3 this is the unit that I usually fit.

cheers man, that is some solid advice. I am very wiring phobic, I'm colorblind and have a better chance of reading chinese than following a wiring diagram.. so kind of planning to just buy a straight replacement part and plug it in aye.
I will check with a bike shop in town (there is no Honda dealers in dunedin at all) and see if they can get me that part and the cost. I go a quote from them yesterday for some finned replacement but it was 270 bucks..

bikebusters on trademe have got a used reg/rec from a wrecked blade same as mine for 80 bucks which is what I was planning to get and fit for now..

finally when testing the stator, should this be done with a new/working reg rec connected, with no reg/rec connected at all, or still with the failed reg/rec connected (cant imagine this is a good idea)

Cheers

[ducatilover]

cheers man, that is some solid advice. I am very wiring phobic, I'm colorblind and have a better chance of reading chinese than following a wiring diagram.. so kind of planning to just buy a straight replacement part and plug it in aye.
I will check with a bike shop in town (there is no Honda dealers in dunedin at all) and see if they can get me that part and the cost. I go a quote from them yesterday for some finned replacement but it was 270 bucks..

bikebusters on trademe have got a used reg/rec from a wrecked blade same as mine for 80 bucks which is what I was planning to get and fit for now..

finally when testing the stator, should this be done with a new/working reg rec connected, with no reg/rec connected at all, or still with the failed reg/rec connected (cant imagine this is a good idea)

Cheers
No reg/rec. You measure it at the plug going to the stator.

[Fast Eddie]

No reg/rec. You measure it at the plug going to the stator.

chur.. now just to find that plug....

cheers for the help :)

[Fast Eddie]

seemed to test out OK according to spanner spinners figures. got 0.7 ohm across 3 yellow wires over three readings. and with bike running with choke on (its cold in dunners) at high idle got about 20v a/c and bumped it up to about 4,000 and I was getting near 60v a/c I think.. did about 5 mins ago and cant even remember haha shocker. but I remember they matched up with spanner spinners figures or pretty close anyway..

however a bit of black around the plug.. terminals and wiring all looks good (the insulation anyway)

honda manual recons should have no more then .3 ohm resistance on stator.. so wondering about that. Also wondering if I knew the right ohm setting to have multimeter on.. mmmm

[neels]

seemed to test out OK according to spanner spinners figures. got 0.7 ohm across 3 yellow wires over three readings. and with bike running with choke on (its cold in dunners) at high idle got about 20v a/c and bumped it up to about 4,000 and I was getting near 60v a/c I think.. did about 5 mins ago and cant even remember haha shocker. but I remember they matched up with spanner spinners figures or pretty close anyway..

however a bit of black around the plug.. terminals and wiring all looks good (the insulation anyway)

honda manual recons should have no more then .3 ohm resistance on stator.. so wondering about that. Also wondering if I knew the right ohm setting to have multimeter on.. mmmm
As long as there are no shorts to ground you should be right, and all 3 measure the same, the difference between 0.3 and 0.7 is probably in your meter leads.

Rec/regs do fry up for no apparent reason, basically the bits inside get hot one too many times and give up. Some heat sink compound between the regulator and where it bolts on might help to keep the new one alive a bit longer, I've also seen mods posted on the internet where people have moved them to somewhere with more airflow, or even installed 12V computer fans to keep them cool.

[Fast Eddie]

As long as there are no shorts to ground you should be right, and all 3 measure the same, the difference between 0.3 and 0.7 is probably in your meter leads.

Rec/regs do fry up for no apparent reason, basically the bits inside get hot one too many times and give up. Some heat sink compound between the regulator and where it bolts on might help to keep the new one alive a bit longer, I've also seen mods posted on the internet where people have moved them to somewhere with more airflow, or even installed 12V computer fans to keep them cool.

haha, yea I saw the computer fan idea too.. not too bad, might give it a go. The reg is mounted on the tail on the blade two bolts onto a metal plate so yea, maybe a bit of thermal past from the reg/rec to the metal plate will dissipate some more heat.

bought a used one :S off trademe.. probably should have not been so tight and got a new one. oh well, see how it goes. student budget n' all

[ducatilover]

haha, yea I saw the computer fan idea too.. not too bad, might give it a go. The reg is mounted on the tail on the blade two bolts onto a metal plate so yea, maybe a bit of thermal past from the reg/rec to the metal plate will dissipate some more heat.

bought a used one :S off trademe.. probably should have not been so tight and got a new one. oh well, see how it goes. student budget n' all
Mount it up the front under the headlight?

[Fast Eddie]

Mount it up the front under the headlight?

sounds like effort haha, nah she'll be right in the original mount. it has 2 vents in the fairing and is already mounted fairly far away from heat sources, why its on the exhaust muffler side and not the otherside is odd but hey.

I'll plug a new (second hand off a wrecked blade) one in and hope it doesnt give me any hassles for a while, until I get the aprilia running anyway. blade needs a bit of service time too before the winter duty and as spanner spinner and online says there are a few better regs u can chuck on with a bit of re-wiring that should be trouble free..

[Kickaha]

I'm colorblind
Well that explains the colour scheme on the Fireblade

[Fast Eddie]

Well that explains the colour scheme on the Fireblade

haha! colorblind as a dog - stuff it, I like yellow and black (was planning to paint the aprilia in a similar fashion)

fuckn hondas tho.. found some melted wires today..

honda is gay - i seem to be attached to it tho, still don't wanna sell it.. but its been a pain in the ass the last year or more

[Kickaha]

honda is gay - i seem to be attached to it tho, still don't wanna sell it.. but its been a pain in the ass the last year or more

I would have thought gay and pain in the arse would go together, try some lube next time

[Fast Eddie]

ha!, your on form today..

[bsasuper]

What people need to do is replace the old diode R/R, with a mosfet R/R, no more problems.

[Fast Eddie]

What people need to do is replace the old diode R/R, with a mosfet R/R, no more problems.

i shall google the differences..

[bsasuper]

Diode R/R run quite hot, and when they fail they usually fry the battery and can damage wiring.Mosfet R/R run a lot cooler, and if it ever fails, it will simply stop voltage to the battery.

[Fast Eddie]

Diode R/R run quite hot, and when they fail they usually fry the battery and can damage wiring.Mosfet R/R run a lot cooler, and if it ever fails, it will simply stop voltage to the battery.

sounds ideal/too good to be true haha - why are mosfet reg/recs not fitted from the start. I'll see if I can get my hands on one, a quick search on ebay has returned a kit by Shindengen? sounds chinese.. anyway.

again back to being rather wiring phobic it looks like a bit or re-wiring and modification is needed to fit one.

[vifferman]

One comment (seeing as how the proper answers have already been posted / just to show what a semi-knowledgeable prick I yam)) is that a very common cause of failure is the plug into the R/R. The connections get loose and/or corrosion builds up (accelerated by some arcing inside the pug), then resistance becomes largish, the plugs overheat, the insulation melts, and this vicious circle becomes more worserer, and everything becomes a charred blackish Blob-o-Doom.
Shindengen is the most common brand fitted to many bikes, and is standard fitment to Honda. The reason mosfet R/Rs aren't commonly fitted is probably to do with price, margins, etc., and the fact Honda has never acknowledged problems with R/Rs. Why should they? They don't generally crap out during the warranty period (so fat Mrkns don't get an itchy lawyer finger), probably have never resulted in a death, so there's no real impetus to change anything.

[Fast Eddie]

One comment (seeing as how the proper answers have already been posted / just to show what a semi-knowledgeable prick I yam)) is that a very common cause of failure is the plug into the R/R. The connections get loose and/or corrosion builds up (accelerated by some arcing inside the pug), then resistance becomes largish, the plugs overheat, the insulation melts, and this vicious circle becomes more worserer, and everything becomes a charred blackish Blob-o-Doom.
Shindengen is the most common brand fitted to many bikes, and is standard fitment to Honda. The reason mosfet R/Rs aren't commonly fitted is probably to do with price, margins, etc., and the fact Honda has never acknowledged problems with R/Rs. Why should they? They don't generally crap out during the warranty period (so fat Mrkns don't get an itchy lawyer finger), probably have never resulted in a death, so there's no real impetus to change anything.


sweet, well I'll prob buy a mosfet and see how I go at wiring.. might make more of a mess than burnt out reg/rec.
I looked at the plugs and connections they are all still golden/shiny and no corrosion around. A couple of wires did melt the insulation so I replaced those 2 sections.. my reg/rec failure doesnt at first hand seem to have done too much damage. Bike runs fine with reg/rec and stator disconnected. stator checks came back good for now.

[bsasuper]

sounds ideal/too good to be true haha - why are mosfet reg/recs not fitted from the start. I'll see if I can get my hands on one, a quick search on ebay has returned a kit by Shindengen? sounds chinese.. anyway.

again back to being rather wiring phobic it looks like a bit or re-wiring and modification is needed to fit one.

Yes they are fitted standard on some makes.The shindengen kit on ebay is what yamaha fits as standard.A bit of wiring is needed if you want to upgrade, and maybe a different mounting bracket, but its not that hard if you are confident with wiring, soldering etc.If you buy one, get the kit with the plug connectors.

[Fast Eddie]

Yes they are fitted standard on some makes.The shindengen kit on ebay is what yamaha fits as standard.A bit of wiring is needed if you want to upgrade, and maybe a different mounting bracket, but its not that hard if you are confident with wiring, soldering etc.If you buy one, get the kit with the plug connectors.

cheers, look like I will give one a go then. I see the kit with all the plug connectors on ebay, 120 bucks US dollars.. Local bike shop wanted to charge me 270 bucks for an old diode replacement so seems like a safe bet.

Not so confident with wiring due to lack of experience and being color blind - but gotta learn sometime so I guess I'll get some practice installing the reg/rec eh. soldering etc should be fine

cheers for the info

[bsasuper]

heres a link to how it was done, not your bike but will give you the general idea


http://www.speedzilla.com/forums/honda-rc51/66236-shindengen-fh012aa-regulator-rectifier-install.html

[vifferman]

Not so confident with wiring due to lack of experience and being color blind - but gotta learn sometime so I guess I'll get some practice installing the reg/rec eh. soldering etc should be fine

cheers for the info
Can you distinguish colours at all? There's usually three wires the same colour (yellow) from the stator to the R/R, and the other two are the positive to the battery (red or brown) and the earth/ground (black or green). If you can distinguish these, you'll be fine. As for the soldering, makes sure all the wires are clean, and get plenty of heat onto them so the solder wicks into them well. Buy some heatshrink if you haven't got some: bits for the wires, then a larger size for over the top. If you can keep moisture out, it's all good, as you can otherwise get galvanic corrosion with the wires/solder.

[Fast Eddie]

heres a link to how it was done, not your bike but will give you the general idea


http://www.speedzilla.com/forums/honda-rc51/66236-shindengen-fh012aa-regulator-rectifier-install.html

beauty, cheers mate - much appreciated

[Fast Eddie]

Can you distinguish colours at all? There's usually three wires the same colour (yellow) from the stator to the R/R, and the other two are the positive to the battery (red or brown) and the earth/ground (black or green). If you can distinguish these, you'll be fine. As for the soldering, makes sure all the wires are clean, and get plenty of heat onto them so the solder wicks into them well. Buy some heatshrink if you haven't got some: bits for the wires, then a larger size for over the top. If you can keep moisture out, it's all good, as you can otherwise get galvanic corrosion with the wires/solder.

yellow should be sweet, I know the 3 yellows from stator to reg rec so they will be sweet to work on, red green brown may be an issue but if there is only two it won't be a problem. process of elimination. I should be right :)

Cheers for the tips on soldering etc too. much appreciated

[Fast Eddie]

new regulator installed, managed to get a newer finned type design for better cooling for 80 bucks for now and will buy a MOSFET one in the near future and update how that install goes.

happy riding all