Ports of Auckland

[Paul in NZ]

What are everyone’s feelings on the Ports of Auckland dispute?

It seems very odd the way this whole thing has gone. It's owned by the council who seem to have demanded bigger returns so the management look to cut costs and zoom shazoom everyones redundant after a short bitter dispute and the contractors move in.

I have to say I’m a bit confused about this. On one hand we bitch about the breakdown of the family unit but every year more and more traditional jobs with ‘normal’ working hours etc are going to a casual / contracting model..

I dunno – theres obviously an untold story here.

[Usarka]

All parties are cocks.

Port - casualised labour sucks
Union - self serving manipulative arseholes
Len Brown - pretending to give a shit so he doesn't lose sth auckland votes

[FROSTY]

My view is that the idiots running the union need a HARD kick in the goolies.
They cost auckland millions of dollars in lost revenue. It becomes a self serving prophacy when now the ports need less staff. Go figure less work has to mean less staff.

[LankyBastard]

Interesting to read the infomation the Port placed in the Herald;

Port workers paid (now this may be an average i'm not sure) $91,000pa

Get 5 weeks annual leave.

Get 15 days sick leave per year.

Get paid for a 40 hour week but in reality only work 26 hours.

All up that adds to $65 per hour.

Not looking so working class anymore are they!! Hmm I may consider driving cranes at the port for that pay......

[Madness]

I struggle to understand how the port at Tauranga can be more competitive than Auckland when surely the majority of North Island container movements must start or finish at Auckland somewhere. How much would it cost to shift a 40' box between Auckland & Tauranga, either by road or rail?

[Reckless]

ah relax it'll sort itself out! :yawn:

And the new expansion of the ports, the keep Auckland beautiful argument that hit the news last week to!

They'll argue for so long all the shipping companies will take their business elsewhere and we wont need a port!! It's already happening :)

Oh then all the export business will move out to follow the freight routes, cheaper rent, less congestion etc etc

Chilax!! Rush hour will be better without all that business in Auckland.

[JimO]

the union guy lost me when he called everyone comrades

[Maha]

What they dont realise is, all the tooting going on are from the employed or well kept people of Auckland, saying ''ah haaa suckers''.
Losers...in many ways to be honest.
Drones to the Union.

[pete376403]

I'd guess that the information published in the Harold was massaged to put the port workers in the worst possible light.

And I dont suppose that the port restructuring plan will require any 'flexibility" in paid working hours from the management either.

[nzmikey]

It pisses me off as all our shit get delayed due to these bastards wanking on about this that & the other & not unloading the ships that come in ......

So it does not just effect them , it effects all of us as a country, it has a knock on effect ........

[slofox]

One of my suppliers had a shipment diverted to Tauranga. Which was too busy to process it and sent it on to Napier. At which point it was unloaded and entrained back up to d'Auckland.

Guess who pays for all the extra freight? The guy waiting for his stock to arrive.

Personally, I'd kick the union's collective arse.

[JimO]

I'd guess that the information published in the Harold was massaged to put the port workers in the worst possible light.

And I dont suppose that the port restructuring plan will require any 'flexibility" in paid working hours from the management either.
no one is forcing them to stay they can fuck off and get a job elsewhere, of course they would need to join the real world

[Lucyloo]

[QUOTE=slofox;1130279553]One of my suppliers had a shipment diverted to Tauranga. Which was too busy to process it and sent it on to Napier. At which point it was unloaded and entrained back up to d'Auckland.

QUOTE]

A shipment of ours that was destined for Auckland instead had to go to Wellington where it was off loaded and then loaded onto another ship which bought it up to Tauranga where it was off loaded and then put on a train back to Auckland - Ho hum - a waste of time and money!

[rustic101]

When they stopped people entering the port this morning they failed to understand some of those people were not even related to POA, i.e 'Rescue' staff being denied access to their buildings and the Chopper etc. Banging on a female medics car calling her a stupid bitch because she would not answer their questions is not going to win you support from the Public.

Also those truckles get paid by the load I think, so in actual fact are the depriving them too, lets not mention the multiple people that were pissed off because they were stuck in traffic..

I think the union(s) need to have a good long look at their tactics.

O and also HTFU - I mean lets stop protesting because its raining, no wonder their productivity is down.

[Motu]

Nearly everyone I talk to these days has no idea of the Unions and strikes of the '60's and '70's. The way they solved that (apart from National banning Unions) was to contract out work. Lay off Telecom linesmen,(and big redundancy) and put them on contract. Petrol tanker drivers were a real problem, until the oil companies practically gave them the trucks so they could go owner driver...end of problem. Sure contractors can earn big money, but when there is no work, there is no income.

I'm not a union supporter, but I can see it from both sides. Before you run down Unions - how do you like the 40hr week ? Morning and afternoon smoko,lunch time? Holidays and sick days? Next time you have monday off on Labour Day, remember what's it's about.

[Maha]

How do you like the 40hr week ? ..Haven't done that in years..

Morning and afternoon smoko,lunch time? ..nup, dont do that either, get work done, go home.

Holidays and sick days? ...whats that? harden up and work through, its only a cold.

Next time you have monday off on Labour Day, remember what's it's about. ...its always fucking raining.

[SPman]

Have any of you guys actually read what's going on there?
Or are you mouthing off on what you read in the Herald and the general shit stirring against the Unions by all and sundry.
POAL is ,/was actually a quite efficient operation. Hong Kong which has far lower wages on much greater turnover, produces 7.7% returns. Auckland is around 6% Melbourne’s return on equity was 2.6%, Wellington’s was 2.9% and Sydney’s was 6.9%.

The wages figures quoted are bullshit - as even a cursory look at the figures would show. The unions were being extremely reasonable. The 12% return figure is so far off this planet, it's laughable! The 12% that someone assured the council could be achieved was based purely on cherry picking from specialised ports that bear no relationship to the Ports of Auckland operations. The only way they'd get even vaguely near that would be to have free labour - which is, in a way, what they want.

The POAL chairman was previously a manager for Hutchison Port Holdings Group - a private company that is extending it's "assets" in the Asia/Pacific area. He was appointed by Rodney Hide when he was setting up the Greater Auckland City to privatise it's assets!
What's one way of getting a cheap port - run it into the ground and then buy it cheap to get it off Auckland Cities hands.

As usual, the Public are being played for suckers - divide and rule - use the "fucking unions" bait and switch technique. We all know that the "poor old bosses" are being given the shaft........yeah, right!

Wake up people, as usual, you're being taken for a ride, and it seems most of you will go willingly down to the drop off at the cliff!

[mossy1200]

Interesting to read the infomation the Port placed in the Herald;

Port workers paid (now this may be an average i'm not sure) $91,000pa

Get 5 weeks annual leave.

Get 15 days sick leave per year.

Get paid for a 40 hour week but in reality only work 26 hours.

All up that adds to $65 per hour.

Not looking so working class anymore are they!! Hmm I may consider driving cranes at the port for that pay......


If thats the true figures you have to wonder if Port pushed buttons to start a strike in order to justify lay offs in order to pay contractors half that amount for a full weeks work.Almost looks like the union got played.

[NinjaNanna]

feels to me that new lines are being drawn in the sand. First Qantas lock out staff to break an ongoing dispute and now POAL.

Personally I don't think the future looks good for the average Joe. And for all of those on "above average" wages, please remember who set/sets the average and whether you like it or not that directly affects you too.

[mossy1200]

feels to me that new lines are being drawn in the sand. First Qantas lock out staff to break an ongoing dispute and now POAL.

Personally I don't think the future looks good for the average Joe. And for all of those on "above average" wages, please remember who set/sets the average and whether you like it or not that directly affects you too.


Yep the higher the average wage the closer its get to my wage pushing my cost of living up while my earnings remain the same giving me a poor return on my time invested in having a more skilled qualification.

[Usarka]

Or are you mouthing off on what you read in the Herald and the general shit stirring against the Unions by all and sundry.

Nope.

I've had first hand experience witnessing a strike from an unbiased postion. I saw some gullible and not too intelligent people convinced into striking by the union for no real reason (apart maybe from being just before the election), which turned out worse for them in the long run.

[Swoop]

Good to see leadership, direction and intelligence from len brown (not).

The sooner that cock is out of the mayor's office the better.


As has been said, there is something "fishy" going on, and it's not the fish. I suspect something to do with the public being given "Wynyard quater" and this has an opposite end of the waterfront connection.

[Usarka]

Len is torn between sucking national's collective cock, and trying not to lose his left-wing south auckland voters.

He's fucked.

[JimO]

the union clown shouldn't be getting paid when the strikers arnt working, see how long he can hold out, i have been self employed since 1986 but was a member of a union prior to that, the only time we saw the cunts was when the fees were due, any one old enough will remember the freezing workers going on strike before every season started and the ferry going on strike before every holiday, FUCK the unions i say

[merv]

It'll be great harbour front when you can clean the Port away from there.

[Madness]

It'll be great harbour front when you can clean the Port away from there.

It's a shitload of carparking spaces!

[merv]

It's a shitload of carparking spaces!

For sure, but cover it in apartments, cafes and offices, connected to another marina and imagine how many Asian immigrants could be housed there.

[pete376403]

For sure, but cover it in apartments, cafes and offices, connected to another marina and imagine how many Asian immigrants could be housed there.

You make that sound like a good thing.
P'raps it would be, the more immigrants that go to Auckland, the less that come to Wellington.

[RDJ]

Before you run down Unions - how do you like the 40hr week ? Morning and afternoon smoko,lunch time? Holidays and sick days? Next time you have monday off on Labour Day, remember what's it's about.

Yes, and the unions also gave us strikes that cancelled flights, cancelled ferries, cancelled deliveries, delayed operations in hospitals, featherbedding union worker packages, the whole lot. The unions are last century's solution in a world that has moved on and if they do not like their job they can do what the rest of us do - put up and shut up, or change it and move on. The independent auditors found that $91,000 was indeed their income for working half the hours of many of us who are salaried or self-employed.

[flyingcrocodile46]

Interesting to read the infomation the Port placed in the Herald;

Port workers paid (now this may be an average i'm not sure) $91,000pa

Get 5 weeks annual leave.

Get 15 days sick leave per year.

Get paid for a 40 hour week but in reality only work 26 hours.

All up that adds to $65 per hour.

Not looking so working class anymore are they!! Hmm I may consider driving cranes at the port for that pay......


It ain't an exageration.

I drive/ride by them twice a day every day for it seems like a couple of months. I shake my head at them and they shake their fists at me. They are obviously incapable of seeing how good they have had it and have stupidly pissed it away. They should have a look around and see how hard others (who work a damn sight harder than them) have it. They might then feel some of the shame that they should. $90K for labouring.:facepalm:

Yes I know how hard-ly they work as I spent time doing some building work down there some years ago. Man they had it good. Dumb, dumb, dumb

[merv]

No, but I am wondering about true motivation of its owners (Council). It would be worth a fortune as commercial/residential property.

It has already been said that this dispute is chasing customers to other ports and rail serving the inland metro-port ex Tauranga to South Auckland would take all those heavy loads away from the city.

One minute they are talking of the need to expand the Port into the beautiful harbour, next minute they have a dispute, expansion not needed, land freed up for development - job done. The only loser, the workers and their jobs.

[rainman]

How do you like the 40hr week ? ..Haven't done that in years..

Morning and afternoon smoko,lunch time? ..nup, dont do that either, get work done, go home.

Holidays and sick days? ...whats that? harden up and work through, its only a cold.

Next time you have monday off on Labour Day, remember what's it's about. ...its always fucking raining.

Fuck that's a bit depressing. Has it ever occurred to you that there's a better way to live? :)

[Maha]

Fuck that's a bit depressing. Has it ever occurred to you that there's a better way to live? :)

Than what?....living and working how I want to?...yeah its tough.

[JimO]

Fuck that's a bit depressing. Has it ever occurred to you that there's a better way to live? :)


go on the dole, sleep all day, go out and do a few bergs at night

[Macontour]

A mate of mine works for one of the other stevedoring companies there and is on over $80k p.a. He works long hours but loves the call backs and so on. I work pretty bloody hard is a low paying job, have a lot of time away from my family, work all sorts of weird hours, early starts and late finishes, any day of the week can be a work day and I am lucky to earn $40k for the year.

But that is how it is. I should have gone to uni I guess but I don't mind working hard.

These strikers that want an extra $50-100 a week in their pockets and give up $1500 a week for ages....do they ever stop to think how long it will take just to recoup what they have missed out on?

My first Boss used to say if you could afford to go out on strike you were earning too much!!! Probably best Boss I ever had, he actually used to treat us better than a Union would have.

I actually thought the bad old days of strikes were long gone. Us older ones well remember when the Stewards would all go out just before the school holidays and the "new" Mangere Bridge sitting idle for about 2 years while the "workers" earned nothing except what other Union members "donated" to the cause.

And all the Union bosses seemed to be Poms, calling everyone Comrades or Brothers and Sisters. Its happening again.

Everyone is working harder for their$$$ now, get over it!!

[Usarka]

No, but I am wondering about true motivation of its owners (Council). It would be worth a fortune as commercial/residential property.


I think it was Metiria Turei on the radio this morning who suggested that SOE companies with casualised labour fetch a much higher price if/when privatised.

[Paul in NZ]

I reckon if we started contracting out management and councillors jobs on an 'as required' basis with a healthy performance penalty thrown in things would be very different.

Nah! This isnt about workers rights or productivity or any of the normal industrial dispute stuff, there is something stinky or just plain odd about all this....

[Zedder]

I reckon if we started contracting out management and councillors jobs on an 'as required' basis with a healthy performance penalty thrown in things would be very different.

Nah! This isnt about workers rights or productivity or any of the normal industrial dispute stuff, there is something stinky or just plain odd about all this....

Do you think the rest of the drama is a smoke screen and eventual privatisation is the agenda? Like the SOEs (Sell Off Everything)?

[Paul in NZ]

I really don't know but this just does not seem like a regular industrial dispute to me.

There is a lot of very dubious information and the media seems reluctant to dig very deeply into the why of it.

In short - yes, there is every chance this is about relocating the Port or devaluing it or something. Its like something else is driving it. I can't believe these guys are nutty enough to turn down $80K a year for 26hours a week and I can't believe a management team would let a business that size go idle that long for a few bucks.

Somethings wrong with this whole thing - it smells funny....

[ElCoyote]

I actually thought the bad old days of strikes were long gone. Us older ones well remember when the Stewards would all go out just before the school holidays and the "new" Mangere Bridge sitting idle for about 2 years while the "workers" earned nothing except what other Union members "donated" to the cause.

And all the Union bosses seemed to be Poms, calling everyone Comrades or Brothers and Sisters. Its happening again.

Bring out the Army and let's have 1931 all over again.

Ps: Mangere translates to lazy, that sort of sums it up.

[Paul in NZ]

I got to admit as soon as some one calls me 'comrade' I start packing for an extended visit to a gulag.....

[BoristheBiter]

Nearly everyone I talk to these days has no idea of the Unions and strikes of the '60's and '70's. The way they solved that (apart from National banning Unions) was to contract out work. Lay off Telecom linesmen,(and big redundancy) and put them on contract. Petrol tanker drivers were a real problem, until the oil companies practically gave them the trucks so they could go owner driver...end of problem. Sure contractors can earn big money, but when there is no work, there is no income.

I'm not a union supporter, but I can see it from both sides. Before you run down Unions - how do you like the 40hr week ? Morning and afternoon smoko,lunch time? Holidays and sick days? Next time you have monday off on Labour Day, remember what's it's about.

Yep, back in the days when there was no employment act. there is now an employments act covering all workers rights. these strikes are about getting more money.

The Union is an old Dinosaur and died years ago, it just hasn't realized it yet.

[Zedder]

Yep, back in the days when there was no employment act. there is now an employments act covering all workers rights. these strikes are about getting more money.

The Union is an old Dinosaur and died years ago, it just hasn't realized it yet.

Yep indeed!

[avgas]

I'm not a union supporter, but I can see it from both sides. Before you run down Unions - how do you like the 40hr week ? Morning and afternoon smoko,lunch time? Holidays and sick days? Next time you have monday off on Labour Day, remember what's it's about.\
Remind me again which union pushed for the 4 weeks holiday?
Increased mental health leave?
Kiwisaver?

and that is just in the last 5-7 years.......

Unions are just like communism. The ideal is perfect and harmonious........the people running it are cocks and dictators. Likewise Labour day started due to a carpenter in wellington standing on his own........then the others followed. So really the moral should be if you want something done, do it yourself - not cry to a union about it. Plenty of other jobs out there, and plenty of people to replace you with.

Don't even get me started about career bases associations. IPENZ make my blood boil.

[BoristheBiter]

\


Don't even get me started about career bases associations. IPENZ make my blood boil.

Oh go on, I know you're dying to.
:corn::corn:

[Macontour]

Just saw the strikers on tv. Apparently they are getting $300 a week from the Union. So let me get this straight...they earn close to $100k pa ie about 1800 per week and they are standing around protesting about their work conditions and getting only $300.

So 6 weeks of Union assitance is worth one weeks normal pay. Is the Union assistance taxed? It is income after all.

And how long before they start getting cars and stuff repossessed and their better halves start kicking their butts for lack of earnings related lifestyle?

[madkiwi]

Read the Ernest and young report that is now on ports of Auckland website. Normal they work 26 hours of a 40 hour week. 120 odd individuals on around $91000, 40 on over $100000 and highest paid stevedore on over $122000.
All the port asked was the guys work a 8 hour shift not come in for a few hours of a shift then leave with 8 hours pay.

[madkiwi]

Plus 5 weeks holiday and 15 days sick leave per year.

[Berries]

Don't even get me started about career bases associations. IPENZ make my blood boil.
You've started, might as well get it out.

[flyingcrocodile46]

Good to see we are waking up to them. Campbell actually delivered the right side of a story for a change.

I rode past them again this morning (not many there) and shook my head at them again. <_<
They are a bunch of parasitic fools who got exactly what they deserved. :Punk:

No sympathy from me. Good bloody job I say. :yes:

[Robert Taylor]

Read the Ernest and young report that is now on ports of Auckland website. Normal they work 26 hours of a 40 hour week. 120 odd individuals on around $91000, 40 on over $100000 and highest paid stevedore on over $122000.
All the port asked was the guys work a 8 hour shift not come in for a few hours of a shift then leave with 8 hours pay.

Whatever happened to the principle of an honest days work for an honest days pay? Neither underpaid or overpaid.These morons are grossly overpaid for what they do. ( As in fairness so are many CEOs and managers. ) They have proven themselves to be out of touch with the real world, more trouble than they are worth and essentially unemployable.
I too remember the bad old days of Tom Skinner and a whole load of militant pommy immigrants poisoning the workforce with the same mentality that bought much of the UKs industrial capacity to its knees in the 70s. Then there was the case of the Patea Freezing works that suffered endless pilfering by many in the workforce and poor productivity, strikes and so on. Its aristocratic English owner said ''if you dont sort your act out I will close it down''. They didnt, he did. And they got their just desserts for robbing the hand that fed them.
If I ran my business with the same mentality as these morons I wouldnt have a business.

[RDJ]

They don't need to run their business your way Robert - they can always try and prise more from your before-tax income to make up any shortfall they perceive.

"He who increases taxes on Peter to pay Paul more benefits, can always relay on the support of Paul".

[nodrog]

I think I better learn how to drive one of those giant shopping trolleys things. Does the AA have a course for that?

[TrentNz]

Their works not even hard, and they get paid pretty well.
what the fuck are they complaining about.

[BoristheBiter]

Their works not even hard, and they get paid pretty well.
what the fuck are they complaining about.

Having to actually do some work

[pete376403]

[QUOTE=madkiwi;1130280725All the port asked was the guys work a 8 hour shift not come in for a few hours of a shift then leave with 8 hours pay.[/QUOTE]

Do you have a citation for this? Seems very much at odds with what the unions are saying, i.e that the ports want to casualise the labour force ("come in and get paid when we've got something for you, otherwise, bugger off")

[tri boy]

Well,I support the workers.
Flame me if you like.

They asked for a reasonable increase, and are trying to hold onto the conditions that they were awarded by POA.

The economic times have changed alot since, but I don't hear uppermangament falling on any swords to help reach that %12 dream.

Fight on boys.
And AFFCO
And the aged care workers.

[Robert Taylor]

They don't need to run their business your way Robert - they can always try and prise more from your before-tax income to make up any shortfall they perceive.

"He who increases taxes on Peter to pay Paul more benefits, can always relay on the support of Paul".

I saw it somewhere else and it is so true.......

''There are those that work for a living and there are those that vote for a living. Those that vote for a living outnumber those that work''

[Robert Taylor]

Well,I support the workers.
Flame me if you like.

They asked for a reasonable increase, and are trying to hold onto the conditions that they were awarded by POA.

The economic times have changed alot since, but I don't hear uppermangament falling on any swords to help reach that %12 dream.

Fight on boys.
And AFFCO
And the aged care workers.

Aged care workers are overworked and grossly underpaid. Fair point much of upper mangement in many industries are grossly overpaid, but so are these port workers.

[caspernz]

Have any of you guys actually read what's going on there?
Or are you mouthing off on what you read in the Herald and the general shit stirring against the Unions by all and sundry.
POAL is ,/was actually a quite efficient operation. Hong Kong which has far lower wages on much greater turnover, produces 7.7% returns. Auckland is around 6% Melbourne’s return on equity was 2.6%, Wellington’s was 2.9% and Sydney’s was 6.9%.

The wages figures quoted are bullshit - as even a cursory look at the figures would show. The unions were being extremely reasonable. The 12% return figure is so far off this planet, it's laughable! The 12% that someone assured the council could be achieved was based purely on cherry picking from specialised ports that bear no relationship to the Ports of Auckland operations. The only way they'd get even vaguely near that would be to have free labour - which is, in a way, what they want.

The POAL chairman was previously a manager for Hutchison Port Holdings Group - a private company that is extending it's "assets" in the Asia/Pacific area. He was appointed by Rodney Hide when he was setting up the Greater Auckland City to privatise it's assets!
What's one way of getting a cheap port - run it into the ground and then buy it cheap to get it off Auckland Cities hands.

As usual, the Public are being played for suckers - divide and rule - use the "fucking unions" bait and switch technique. We all know that the "poor old bosses" are being given the shaft........yeah, right!

Wake up people, as usual, you're being taken for a ride, and it seems most of you will go willingly down to the drop off at the cliff!

Wow!! Someone on here actually gets what this is all about. I thought it was just me.

[RDJ]

Well now.... the facts of the situation may be inconvenient to the union boosters but they remain facts.

Fact 1: In Auckland, the Maritime Union went on strike to retain outdated work practices (a.k.a. habits) that have long been proven to be unproductive in competitor ports elsewhere in NZ.

Fact 2: Yes, some managers are grossly overpaid and aged care workers are underpaid but the wharf's management ranks for example have been more than decimated (in the original sense of the word) over the years at the same time as their workload increased. Wharfies don't want to have that happen to them; they want to keep the high income for low hours, have lifelong job security, and keep their featherbedded environment, which is understandable in terms of human nature. But not realistic. The rest of us have had to move with the times and the wharfies' strike is just blackmail.

[puddytat]

Billy Bragg at his best




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[JMemonic]

These same arguments were used a few years ago in another port, claims of losing business because the hours the watersiders were not working, only worked half the hours paid, a heap of folks on here knowing all, based on the media campaign organised by the port management slammed the employees, and guess what, they knew nothing.

I suspect the case here is similar give the port I am referring to was under offer from the former employer of the current POA ceo/chief. Many of the tactics were the similar, inflated earning figures etc one watersider on 120k plus blah blah, the highest earning guy was on about 90k and he worked mostly night shifts and some weeks up to 70 hours per week.

As this is a emotive topic due to a dedicated campaign by POA to tell you all the earnings of its employees and make it look as if they are getting it better than you, you all know best. Just wonder how you would like to work their shifts, in the conditions they sometimes work.

There will be load of facts out there we have not been privy to, the unions are needed in this environment, large employers can afford the best lawyers to poke loopholes in the ERA, individual employees cant, divide and concur, sure you bosses are great in smaller business but these kind of outfits consider workers as simply a cost not a benefit.

[RDJ]

These same arguments were used a few years ago in another port, claims of losing business because the hours the watersiders were not working, only worked half the hours paid, a heap of folks on here knowing all, based on the media campaign organised by the port management slammed the employees, and guess what, they knew nothing. Just wonder how you would like to work their shifts, in the conditions they sometimes work.

This is a common meme - that those of us who are against your position of "Workers Good and Truthful, Management Bad and Lying", have ourselves never and do not now work in as bad or worse conditions for less pay than these poor put-upon "workers". Speak only for yourself and your straw men - many of us have, and did, and sometimes still do - which is why we recognise when a group of people are getting an ultra-good deal and want it perpetuated in the face of reality at others' expense.

"He who increases taxes on Peter to pay Paul more benefits, can always relay on the support of Paul".

[Howie]

Whatever happened to the principle of an honest days work for an honest days pay? Neither underpaid or overpaid.These morons are grossly overpaid for what they do. ( As in fairness so are many CEOs and managers. ) They have proven themselves to be out of touch with the real world, more trouble than they are worth and essentially unemployable.


This disagreement is about more than an honest days pay for an honest days work as I see it. Are you aware that the port of tauraunga which uses a form of compititive stevedoring for it's labour force has had 3 deaths in the last 2 years on it's site. There are also basic H&S issue's that would need resolving if such a system came in.
I also see that main stream media hasn't made much mention of the fact that the port of Auckland being declared the worlds first Port of convenience by the ITF.

I wonder which is the next sector of the NZ to be in the firing line?

[RDJ]

This disagreement is about more than an honest days pay for an honest days work as I see it. Are you aware that the port of tauraunga which uses a form of compititive stevedoring for it's labour force has had 3 deaths in the last 2 years on it's site. There are also basic H&S issue's that would need resolving if such a system came in.

We should be careful with this line of argument. For example.... One of the deaths (for which the company was heavily fined) occurred when a worker walked out in front of a forklift and was, sadly, killed by the impact. The company was fined for not having headlights on the forklift. The worker was wearing hi-viz... Was this death the fault of labor practices and management negligence...?

[JMemonic]

This is a common meme - that those of us who are against your position of "Workers Good and Truthful, Management Bad and Lying", have ourselves never and do not now work in as bad or worse conditions for less pay than these poor put-upon "workers". Speak only for yourself and your straw men - many of us have, and did, and sometimes still do - which is why we recognise when a group of people are getting an ultra-good deal and want it perpetuated in the face of reality at others' expense.

"He who increases taxes on Peter to pay Paul more benefits, can always relay on the support of Paul".

Well done you have mistaken my points, no where did I suggest that others do not have it as good as the port workers. I merely pointed out all the facts are not broadcast to allow informed and rational understanding. Sure others have it worse, some better but why on earth would you not attempt to retain what you have. I guess you would take worse conditions and less money for more work to do the same tasks you have for some time with no fight.

[RDJ]

I merely pointed out all the facts are not broadcast to allow informed and rational understanding. Sure others have it worse, some better but why on earth would you not attempt to retain what you have. I guess you would take worse conditions and less money for more work to do the same tasks you have for some time with no fight.

No, that's not what you merely did.

And you guess wrong. If conditions worsen and the bosses wanted to pay me less - I would make a decision about whether I should stay or go, and that would be based on what I could get elsewhere. If conditions are worse everywhere then that would be a big factor to warrant staying.

What many of us do not do is throw our toys out of the cot and go on strike and affect a lot of other people's livelihoods in pursuit of the unattainable - to keep the indefensible and wind back the clock.

[Berries]

Just wonder how you would like to work their shifts, in the conditions they sometimes work.
What, like in the rain while sitting in a crane? Must be a right bastard.

[JMemonic]

No, that's not what you merely did.

And you guess wrong. If conditions worsen and the bosses wanted to pay me less - I would make a decision about whether I should stay or go, and that would be based on what I could get elsewhere. If conditions are worse everywhere then that would be a big factor to warrant staying.

What many of us do not do is throw our toys out of the cot and go on strike and affect a lot of other people's livelihoods in pursuit of the unattainable - to keep the indefensible and wind back the clock.

The thing is for a lot of these guys they could easily join the great exodus and earn more, sometimes the only action available in a one sided negotiation is industrial action, have you asked any watersider if they really want to affect your livelihood?

Many of those whinging about the effects have no real idea the potential for a rationalization in the port industry would have on them, simply NZ does not need as many ports as we have, Tauranga is possibly better situated to supply the central and up of the north island, many of the goods sold in Auckland now are coming in through that port as shipping lines have that as a a preferred port, these containers are then loaded on a vessel traveling from there to AKL or shipped via trucks.

Oh and if their job looks so dam good to you or anyone else and the new terms and conditions are something you are prepared to accept there is about 300 jobs going, get in there and apply.

Seriously though how does their actions directly affect you? Or are you just making guesses as to the external implications. These alterations proposed are potentially only the start of changes, downstream there could be a number of changes.

Again the information available to most is only what has been in the media, you don't think POA hasn't spent good money to ensure its release is designed to make their position seem saintly and the watersiders evil? There are bound to be faults on both side, however POA has more money and media aware advertising agencies in its employ to get their message out in a format that makes the general public admire them for standing up to the nasty greedy workers.

[JMemonic]

What, like in the rain while sitting in a crane? Must be a right bastard.

Yeah must be, when you have to maneuver swinging containers in slotted ship that is swaying on a swell, shit that's so easy, guess what, you think its easy apply for the job just remember you wont start out in a crane, most likely lashing on the deck in the rain and wind, hopeful the crane driver knows what the hell they are doing and wont drop the box on top of you.

[RDJ]

Oh and if their job looks so dam good to you or anyone else and the new terms and conditions are something you are prepared to accept there is about 300 jobs going, get in there and apply.


Don't you get tired of constructing straw men to argue with? I am not after their job; they had the option to keep it if they wanted it. They (or their leadership) appear not to value it. Game over for them... and sadly, the likelihood they and their families will earn as well again as they could have kept earning, is low. People who bite the hand that feeds should not pretend surprise when the hand stops wanting to feed them.

[awayatc]

Yeah fuck the workers...
fuck all people while you are at it...
the share holders are the only ones that matter....
all us dum fucks should just accept that and roll over.
Our only purpose is to serve the chosen few.
Be thankfull you are allowed to work at all
be gratefull for all the crumbs you get.
Full time work?
Don't call us,
we will call you......

[Robert Taylor]

Brazen greed ( and thats what it is ) is unacceptable at any level of society. Attempts are made to justify why these ''workers'' are so overpaid but such an argument can be applied to many vocations.

[RDJ]

Yeah fuck the workers...
fuck all people while you are at it...
the share holders are the only ones that matter....
all us dum fucks should just accept that and roll over.
Our only purpose is to serve the chosen few.
Be thankfull you are allowed to work at all
be gratefull for all the crumbs you get.
Full time work?
Don't call us,
we will call you......

One can certainly appreciate, based on your views above, why it is that jobs can be harder for some people to get and keep, than others. But hey, if you don't like depending on others for your livelihood, why not work for yourself or start a business and be successful? then you can do as you please - always assuming someone wants to buy your product / labor. No-one is stopping you from being an employer instead of an employee

[BoristheBiter]

Yeah fuck the workers...
fuck all people while you are at it...
the share holders are the only ones that matter....
all us dum fucks should just accept that and roll over.
Our only purpose is to serve the chosen few.
Be thankfull you are allowed to work at all
be gratefull for all the crumbs you get.
Full time work?
Don't call us,
we will call you......

Bitter much?

[avgas]

Oh go on, I know you're dying to.
:corn::corn:
Here is the tip of the iceberg stuff http://idealog.co.nz/news/2011/12/engineers-seek-debate-mining
IPENZ representation of engineers in NZ are similar to what BRONZ did for Motorcyclists in NZ.

As said earlier, I have no problems with the concept and idea of associations........just with the wankers who seek power through these mediums.
Fat fucks in Unions who don't do any REAL work are stealing my oxygen. They have no right being there, they don't know what its like, and they are only doing this for their own benefit.

[avgas]

Yeah must be, when you have to maneuver swinging containers in slotted ship that is swaying on a swell, shit that's so easy, guess what, you think its easy apply for the job just remember you wont start out in a crane, most likely lashing on the deck in the rain and wind, hopeful the crane driver knows what the hell they are doing and wont drop the box on top of you.
Oh boo hoo.
We all started off as the 'boy' on site. You know this when you start. You end up doing the shit jobs when you start anywhere.
Likewise when you start a job and you see the risks......its hardly an unknown. I have walked off site when a crane or digger driver is not up to standard - I was covered by OSH, so are these workers. You have every right to drop tools and walk out if there is a possibility OSH problem. THAT IS LAW (H&S 1992). You MUST be paid as well while the problem is remedied.
Having a cry about it probably means it shouldn't be your chosen career path.
Plenty of other monkeys to train if you want to have a cry about it.

[MSTRS]

There is a lot of very dubious information ...



...the media seems reluctant to dig very deeply...


...(going on) strike is just blackmail.

Those are the three things I know about it. And possibly the only truths too...

[Zedder]

Could it be time to move on?

[Paul in NZ]

I guess there comes a time when all industries 'change' and eventually workers need to change with it.

The point is that all the stakeholders should (ideally) gain something from the change.

Personally I'd have taken the changed conditions (as I understand them)

[SPman]

Plus 5 weeks holiday and 15 days sick leave per year.
Jealous are you?
I get 4 weeks holidays and 15 days sick leave per year - all achieved by the unions - I believe in Germany it's 6 weeks paid leave (I may be wrong there)
Seems that a lot of people on here don't earn very much...
They seem happy to accept payment for jobs that, in real terms, have been decreasing for years...
So...do they try and boost their earnings - work out better wages and conditions with their employers, or for their employees....
or are they happy to accept their miserable incomes for the amount of work they consider they do? Seems like it to me - and woe betide any jobs that still have a strong union which has got better pay and conditions for their members. Obviously they are all lazy fucks getting shit loads of money for fuck all work and deserve to be brought down to our level - or lower - better still - let the lazy overpaid fucks go on the dole, then we can really get stuck into them!
Everything you read in the paper is true....every release from the Port Authorities is true because they have the power so it must be so! Every spin of the government must be right because that nice John Key (who has made lots of money) says so!

Do any of you guys ever step back and look at yourselves.....ever seek out all the information available on a topic before committing your mouths to print? Or is everything judged on old, outdated false misconceptions because once you saw something that might have agreed with the viewpoint being put across!
Paul has every right to be concerned about his perception of this situation, because it's a classic "destroy the unions tactic" used by Governments and big business the world over - manufacture a crisis, have the media spin it all in their favour utilising the public's antipathy towards unions, feeding false, misleading or malicious information to all their friendly outlets and try and whip up a public storm that results in them getting their objectives. This current government has used it very successfully in the past term on several occasions. So have all the Gov.s before!
- I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion. - Thomas Jefferson

A fully informed society is one that is not easily lead - NZ society (as most around the world, alas), are woefully informed and easily lead - like a bull by rope through the ring in it's nose! And so it is in this case (just one of many a.t.m.)

On strike - They were locked out by management for wanting to negotiate management demands - then sacked! Rather a different thing!

[FJRider]

Those are the three things I know about it. And possibly the only truths too...

Dubious information ... ??? it was on TV and in the papers ... right ??? :innocent:

Media are after a story. What is reported depends on the point of view of the reporter. What information is given to the media from both sides ... and what is reported ... may not be the entire story.

Blackmail is only when one party has something the other party needs. In this case ... is that really how it stands... ??? Can the port authoritys do without them ???

[MSTRS]

...a classic "destroy the unions tactic" used by Governments and big business the world over...

Of course, Unions would never 'destroy governments and industry, would they? Oh - hang on....

I'd say that between 'greedy' unions, employers, shareholders and govts, they've about fucked the place. And with 500 people after every job that's going, wages are not about to rise any time soon.

[Paul in NZ]

On strike - They were locked out by management for wanting to negotiate management demands - then sacked! Rather a different thing!

Yup - in a nut shell thats the bit I don't get. Its been a long time since I was a Union Branch Committee member and I had not realised things had deteriorated that far. Pretty sure under the old ways that was illegal?

Like I said - work places change (mine sure did) when it was 'privatised'. But honestly the customers were no better off (they think they are but trust me they aint), the public are no better off and as a society we were a lot worse off. Training was destroyed, profits sent overseas, skills were lost and young people lost a chance to get into a high tech industry at the ground level. Now we have to import people from o/seas to do medium skill jobs. Jobs that should be going to young guys here.

So Yes - contracting works if you are qualified and have a skill to sell but its hard yards getting started know and THAT is going to bite all us qualified boomers in the arse in a few years time. In my case I got out early and work on a salary in the office these days but stepping away from a narrow me me view and looking at the wider picture - I'm fucked if I can how the working classes are better off. All it seems to have done is fuel the gap between rich and poor.

[Paul in NZ]

Of course, Unions would never 'destroy governments and industry, would they? Oh - hang on....

I'd say that between 'greedy' unions, employers, shareholders and govts, they've about fucked the place. And with 500 people after every job that's going, wages are not about to rise any time soon.

Not 100% sure thats this the case here. It just feels a bit odd.

[Swoop]

I believe in Germany it's 6 weeks paid leave...
My German workmate thought so as well, but Mr Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_statutory_minimum_employment_leave_by_coun try)says four.

[puddytat]

There is a reason why we needed to invent Unions.....it was because of the Employers.

[avgas]

Yup - in a nut shell thats the bit I don't get. Its been a long time since I was a Union Branch Committee member and I had not realised things had deteriorated that far. Pretty sure under the old ways that was illegal?

Like I said - work places change (mine sure did) when it was 'privatised'. But honestly the customers were no better off (they think they are but trust me they aint), the public are no better off and as a society we were a lot worse off. Training was destroyed, profits sent overseas, skills were lost and young people lost a chance to get into a high tech industry at the ground level. Now we have to import people from o/seas to do medium skill jobs. Jobs that should be going to young guys here.

So Yes - contracting works if you are qualified and have a skill to sell but its hard yards getting started know and THAT is going to bite all us qualified boomers in the arse in a few years time. In my case I got out early and work on a salary in the office these days but stepping away from a narrow me me view and looking at the wider picture - I'm fucked if I can how the working classes are better off. All it seems to have done is fuel the gap between rich and poor.
Quick question. Do you think the world will end when you go? Or because you stayed?
If you reread your post - you might be a bit biased......or what was it called again "set in your ways".

[MSTRS]

Not 100% sure thats this the case here. It just feels a bit odd.

I spoke in general terms, rather than specifically about POA. Of that debacle, I only know what I see in the odd TV headline with images of pickets (meaning next to nothing).

[Zedder]

Jealous are you?
I get 4 weeks holidays and 15 days sick leave per year - all achieved by the unions - I believe in Germany it's 6 weeks paid leave (I may be wrong there)
Seems that a lot of people on here don't earn very much...
They seem happy to accept payment for jobs that, in real terms, have been decreasing for years...
So...do they try and boost their earnings - work out better wages and conditions with their employers, or for their employees....
or are they happy to accept their miserable incomes for the amount of work they consider they do? Seems like it to me - and woe betide any jobs that still have a strong union which has got better pay and conditions for their members. Obviously they are all lazy fucks getting shit loads of money for fuck all work and deserve to be brought down to our level - or lower - better still - let the lazy overpaid fucks go on the dole, then we can really get stuck into them!
Everything you read in the paper is true....every release from the Port Authorities is true because they have the power so it must be so! Every spin of the government must be right because that nice John Key (who has made lots of money) says so!

Do any of you guys ever step back and look at yourselves.....ever seek out all the information available on a topic before committing your mouths to print? Or is everything judged on old, outdated false misconceptions because once you saw something that might have agreed with the viewpoint being put across!
Paul has every right to be concerned about his perception of this situation, because it's a classic "destroy the unions tactic" used by Governments and big business the world over - manufacture a crisis, have the media spin it all in their favour utilising the public's antipathy towards unions, feeding false, misleading or malicious information to all their friendly outlets and try and whip up a public storm that results in them getting their objectives. This current government has used it very successfully in the past term on several occasions. So have all the Gov.s before!
- I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion. - Thomas Jefferson

A fully informed society is one that is not easily lead - NZ society (as most around the world, alas), are woefully informed and easily lead - like a bull by rope through the ring in it's nose! And so it is in this case (just one of many a.t.m.)

On strike - They were locked out by management for wanting to negotiate management demands - then sacked! Rather a different thing!

Thanks for your perspective SPman. However, I don't need the media spin to know that Ports of Auckland and it's outdated unionised labour model doesn't work compared with that of the partially privatised Tauranga Port and it's happy workers.

[short-circuit]

Thanks for your perspective SPman. However, I don't need the media spin to know that Ports of Auckland and it's outdated unionised labour model doesn't work compared with that of the partially privatised Tauranga Port and it's happy workers.

Yeah - cause you saw it on the news eh?

[Robert Taylor]

There is a reason why we needed to invent Unions.....it was because of the Employers.

So are you inferring that all employers are bad?

Suffice to say there are plenty of employers with small businesses that would love the take home pay and often lazy hours of those port ''workers''. There are plenty of companies that recently have suffered delays in getting freight also.

[Zedder]

Yeah - cause you saw it on the news eh?

No, because I wrote that I don't need the media spin remember. I've met people who work there and also, if you'd like to check out Port of Tauranga's web site, you'll see what I mean.

[davereid]

So are you inferring that all employers are bad?

Suffice to say there are plenty of employers with small businesses that would love the take home pay and often lazy hours of those port ''workers''. There are plenty of companies that recently have suffered delays in getting freight also.

I have been an employer, and struggled with tardy staff, that never overdid a days work. I have had some great employees as well.

Employers are the same. Some see the only focus of business as being return to shareholders, even if that meant treating staff terribly.

We have seen in history, (not always ancient history either), that employers will take slaves if thats what they need to turn a profit. And we have seen Unions close the rail ferry for the Xmas holidays because the chocolate biscuits at smoko had been switched for a home brand.

Both sides can overstep the mark in the blink of an eye.

But the balance has moved. I'm not personally comfortable with our direction. Profit is a great word. But so is society.

[Robert Taylor]

I have been an employer, and struggled with tardy staff, that never overdid a days work. I have had some great employees as well.

Employers are the same. Some see the only focus of business as being return to shareholders, even if that meant treating staff terribly.

We have seen in history, (not always ancient history either), that employers will take slaves if thats what they need to turn a profit. And we have seen Unions close the rail ferry for the Xmas holidays because the chocolate biscuits at smoko had been switched for a home brand.

Both sides can overstep the mark in the blink of an eye.

But the balance has moved. I'm not personally comfortable with our direction. Profit is a great word. But so is society.

Exactly, the balance has to be right. No argument there.

[Oblivion]

Even watching news reports on this, I'm still confused about this. Can someone explain how this started and why are they striking? :shutup:

[tri boy]

I bet none of those "overpaid slackers"have Flash Houses/Holiday Baches in Flash areas/Large share portfolios/Umteen Rental properties.

But, I bet mangament/media hotshots and spin doctors do.
So who REALLY is overpaid, and slackers..............

[trustme]

Even watching news reports on this, I'm still confused about this. Can someone explain how this started and why are they striking? :shutup:

In simple terms the port workers work shifts that may not coincide particularly well with the arrival of vessels hence they work on average 28 hrs in their 40 hour week. Management want more flexibility in the working roster so the port workers more than 28 hrs in the 40 hr week.

My first experience with POA was over 30 years ago.As a complete newb I was sent down to deliver a container of Squash. I got there about 2.00pm & joined the queue out on Quay St, I gave up at 8.00pm as I was miles from the gates & the port closed at 10.
Next morning I was there at 5.00AM , 3rd truck from the gate. they ran a booking system where we all stood in an office at 7.30 & drivers booked in. I booked in 3rd,with probably 100 behind me, the arsehole booking officer looks at me.
" Been here before "
" Nope "
" Well you can fuck off to the back of the queue "
I was dumb struck , I bloody near cried, you could not argue with anyone on the wharf or you could get blacked
An OD who knew me came to my rescue
" If he was keen enough to get up at some ridiculous hour to get here first there is no way you are doing that,this is bullshit, I'll help him through , it won't be a problem "
That OD is still my mate

30 years on I run the odd truck, we will not cart off the AK wharf, it is not worth the hassle. If I need boxes on or off I get another company to run them.

On the other hand about 18 months ago we put a large volume of freight through Tauranga including a considerable amount of break bulk or over dimension cargo. Easy peasy , the port company, stevedores & port workers could not have been more helpful.

POA is a pain in the arse to deal with, inflexible arseholes. Tauranga is a dream in comparison. No wonder Maersk got the shits

Something had to change at POA, it can't carry on with the same old same old.

[Winston001]

I bet none of those "overpaid slackers"have Flash Houses/Holiday Baches in Flash areas/Large share portfolios/Umteen Rental properties.

But, I bet mangament/media hotshots and spin doctors do.
So who REALLY is overpaid, and slackers..............

I wouldn't be so certain. Aeons ago when I worked in the freezing works quite a few other workers owned rental houses or small farms which they were paying off with the high wages we earned. These guys kept quiet about their hopes and efforts because saving your wages and improving your family's life provoked envy from others.

It doesn't matter whether you are a worker or a manager - its what you do with your earnings that counts in the long term. There are plenty of switched-on workers - they just keep their heads down.

[puddytat]

So are you inferring that all employers are bad?

Suffice to say there are plenty of employers with small businesses that would love the take home pay and often lazy hours of those port ''workers''. There are plenty of companies that recently have suffered delays in getting freight also.

No ,not at all Robert...im generalising.I have been happy with all my Bosses personally.
But least we forget it did take way back when , the workers to unite & stand up as an organisation to stop sweat shops, & achieve the things like an 8 hr day (yeah I know most do more 'cause they have to pay the bills associated with modern living) sick leave etc.....
Just look at countires where the unions are non-existant,& the virtual slavery that comes with it. Free market capatalism is really a double edged sword. And its big business that weilds it.
Most small & medium size business are pretty much in the (cough) same boat as " the workers" (I mean all). They are genuinely struggling to keep their heads above water......because they are both having to compete with Global Big business. People are secondary or collateral damage to them. And the govts & media are in their pockets,or belong to the same club,creed,religion or wear the same tie.

[Robert Taylor]

I bet none of those "overpaid slackers"have Flash Houses/Holiday Baches in Flash areas/Large share portfolios/Umteen Rental properties.

But, I bet mangament/media hotshots and spin doctors do.
So who REALLY is overpaid, and slackers..............

North Korea is apparently an equal society modelled on everyone being equal, a fine example of communism at work

[pete376403]

North Korea is apparently an equal society modelled on everyone being equal, a fine example of communism at work

Or perhaps North Korea is actually the ultimate capitalist state, run by, and for the benefit of Kim Family Industries, with millions of underpaid, unrepresented worker/slaves.

[Robert Taylor]

No ,not at all Robert...im generalising.I have been happy with all my Bosses personally.
But least we forget it did take way back when , the workers to unite & stand up as an organisation to stop sweat shops, & achieve the things like an 8 hr day (yeah I know most do more 'cause they have to pay the bills associated with modern living) sick leave etc.....
Just look at countires where the unions are non-existant,& the virtual slavery that comes with it. Free market capatalism is really a double edged sword. And its big business that weilds it.
Most small & medium size business are pretty much in the (cough) same boat as " the workers" (I mean all). They are genuinely struggling to keep their heads above water......because they are both having to compete with Global Big business. People are secondary or collateral damage to them. And the govts & media are in their pockets,or belong to the same club,creed,religion or wear the same tie.

I concur almost totally. My politics are firmly tory but I have issue with a totally unregulated free market, as much as I have issue with hardline unionists with unreasonable expectations. We are all in effect hypocites because the affordable clothes we wear on our backs stuff the coffers of multinationals whilst the sweatshop workers who assemble these clothes work stupidly long hours and earn a pittance. Human nature albeit it a fatcat CEO or a raving unionist is not too pretty.
I am not against anyone getting ahead as long as its productive, is not brazen speculation or GREED and is ethical
Moreover some of the posts that I see here are very much an ''us and them'' mentality.
In my small world I see all walks of life, they recieve( and jolly well should do )the same level of respect as customers. So long as they dont have bitter levels of ''baggage.''

[puddytat]

I dont think anyone is linking unions to communism....maybe socialism though. And I Sir, concour almost totally with you Robert!

[Robert Taylor]

Or perhaps North Korea is actually the ultimate capitalist state, run by, and for the benefit of Kim Family Industries, with millions of underpaid, unrepresented worker/slaves.

That is of course what I was cynically inferring to. Also add underfed and they have had to defer from their ''communist principles'' ( if indeed there is such a thing ) to accept food aid from those nasty Westerners.

[Robert Taylor]

I dont think anyone is linking unions to communism....maybe socialism though. And I Sir, concour almost totally with you Robert!

Im pretty sure Helen Kelly is a communist, or close to it.

[Winston001]

What is missing in this dispute is comprehensive information from the Maritime Union of New Zealand explaining their position. Yes the POA have an effective media presence and employ advisors. But we are far from the days of cloth-capped trade unionists.

There are many well-educated left-wing activists (most of the Labour Party) who are able to put together slick media presentations. Matt McCarten and Leila Hare come to mind, John Minto, plenty of Green activists too.

Seriously, why haven't we seen a barrage of pro-union advertisements and interviews putting their point of view. I haven't even seen a rebuttal of the average $91,000 wage. Surely if that is untrue it is easy to disprove.

[Winston001]

And the mayor - Len Brown?? He's been affiliated with the Labour Party since he was 17 yr old. For goodness sake if any politician has sympathy with the workers and could intervene its him. At the very least he could stand on their side if they are being genuinely oppressed.

Come to think of it, where's the Labour Leader in all this?

[puddytat]

Come to think of it, where's the Labour Leader in all this?

Tarred to the other side of the same brush

[Zedder]

And the mayor - Len Brown?? He's been affiliated with the Labour Party since he was 17 yr old. For goodness sake if any politician has sympathy with the workers and could intervene its him. At the very least he could stand on their side if they are being genuinely oppressed.

Come to think of it, where's the Labour Leader in all this?

Actually Winston, Len Brown offered to mediate between the two parties and he was scheduled to meet with the union early today.

As for the Labour Party it would only be political support if anything.

[Winston001]

Ok fair enough, Len Brown offered to mediate: good on him. That's something but far far too late given this dispute has been publicly known about for 6 weeks and probably brewing for 3 months. I'd have thought Len would have jumped in when Fonterra moved their work to Tauranga weeks ago.

Lets go back to basics: the shareholders of POA are the ratepayers of Auckland. POA used to be listed on the sharemarket but the council bought up all of the shares. That makes POA a type of state owned enterprise.

So the Council can call a shareholders meeting, make resolutions requiring the directors to keep the waterfront guys on and resolve the dispute. Or the council can fire them and appoint new directors who will do that.

[Zedder]

Ok fair enough, Len Brown offered to mediate: good on him. That's something but far far too late given this dispute has been publicly known about for 6 weeks and probably brewing for 3 months. I'd have thought Len would have jumped in when Fonterra moved their work to Tauranga weeks ago.

Lets go back to basics: the shareholders of POA are the ratepayers of Auckland. POA used to be listed on the sharemarket but the council bought up all of the shares. That makes POA a type of state owned enterprise.

So the Council can call a shareholders meeting, make resolutions requiring the directors to keep the waterfront guys on and resolve the dispute. Or the council can fire them and appoint new directors who will do that.

I think you need to read up about the entity that is the Ports of Auckland plus how the legislation surrounding it affects the Mayor's power of intervention etc.

[Robert Taylor]

Ok fair enough, Len Brown offered to mediate: good on him. That's something but far far too late given this dispute has been publicly known about for 6 weeks and probably brewing for 3 months. I'd have thought Len would have jumped in when Fonterra moved their work to Tauranga weeks ago.

Lets go back to basics: the shareholders of POA are the ratepayers of Auckland. POA used to be listed on the sharemarket but the council bought up all of the shares. That makes POA a type of state owned enterprise.

So the Council can call a shareholders meeting, make resolutions requiring the directors to keep the waterfront guys on and resolve the dispute. Or the council can fire them and appoint new directors who will do that.

I have no time for Len Brown as he is a wimp, but clearly even he can see that the strikers are out of order. Had Banksie still been Mayor he would have stated his position very quickly and very clearly.

Auckland has had some dreadful mayors, including more recently that guy that makes breakfast cereals out of wood shavings. Also a lefty.

[Robert Taylor]

What is missing in this dispute is comprehensive information from the Maritime Union of New Zealand explaining their position. Yes the POA have an effective media presence and employ advisors. But we are far from the days of cloth-capped trade unionists.

There are many well-educated left-wing activists (most of the Labour Party) who are able to put together slick media presentations. Matt McCarten and Leila Hare come to mind, John Minto, plenty of Green activists too.

Seriously, why haven't we seen a barrage of pro-union advertisements and interviews putting their point of view. I haven't even seen a rebuttal of the average $91,000 wage. Surely if that is untrue it is easy to disprove.

You mean ''well educated at communist finishing school"

[Winston001]

You mean ''well educated at communist finishing school"

LOL not really. Trade unions have played a crucial part in the development of our society and social democracy is the norm in most OECD countries. Its amusing to watch American politics where they debate universal healthcare when its not even discussed in the rest of the developed world.

It's uncertain whether the current strikes are the last gasp of the union movement or perhaps a resurgence.

[SPman]

I think you need to read up about the entity that is the Ports of Auckland plus how the legislation surrounding it affects the Mayor's power of intervention etc. Very much so. The laws and regulations around all this are rather convoluted and not what the average joe would think....

the definition of "Council-Controlled Organisation" in the Local Government Act specifically excludes port companies:
(4) The following entities are not council-controlled organisations: ...
(c) a port company or subsidiary of a port company within the meaning of the Port Companies Act 1988
Why is this the case?
The provision seems to have originally been introduced into the Local Government Act 1974 by the Local Government Amendment Act (No 2) 1989, which introduced new provisions about "Local Authority Trading Enterprises (LATES)", which specifically excluded port companies. The reason for that? Because the then-Labour government of <strike>Roger Douglas</strike> David Lange wanted local bodies to sell their ports.

[Robert Taylor]

LOL not really. Trade unions have played a crucial part in the development of our society and social democracy is the norm in most OECD countries. Its amusing to watch American politics where they debate universal healthcare when its not even discussed in the rest of the developed world.

It's uncertain whether the current strikes are the last gasp of the union movement or perhaps a resurgence.

Yes, we seem to have dredged up memories of the 70s with this current union activity. Certainly there is no argument that there was a time when unions were 100% needed to achieve some balance. But the flipside is when they have held countries to ransom and disrupted the smooth flow of many other industries. It is certain that at times they were taking direction from their communist mates.
With respect to the USA that place is now such a basket case that it should be renamed North Mexico.

[Paul in NZ]

Quick question. Do you think the world will end when you go? Or because you stayed?
If you reread your post - you might be a bit biased......or what was it called again "set in your ways".

No I dont think I'm biased. Its worked out really good for me personally but its made it hard for young people born here to get jobs. While its easy to say someone is set in their ways its a lot harder to explain to a bank manager about your casual employment situation when you want a mortgage.

[Paul in NZ]

In simple terms the port workers work shifts that may not coincide particularly well with the arrival of vessels hence they work on average 28 hrs in their 40 hour week. Management want more flexibility in the working roster so the port workers more than 28 hrs in the 40 hr week.

My first experience with POA was over 30 years ago.As a complete newb I was sent down to deliver a container of Squash. I got there about 2.00pm & joined the queue out on Quay St, I gave up at 8.00pm as I was miles from the gates & the port closed at 10.
Next morning I was there at 5.00AM , 3rd truck from the gate. they ran a booking system where we all stood in an office at 7.30 & drivers booked in. I booked in 3rd,with probably 100 behind me, the arsehole booking officer looks at me.
" Been here before "
" Nope "
" Well you can fuck off to the back of the queue "
I was dumb struck , I bloody near cried, you could not argue with anyone on the wharf or you could get blacked
An OD who knew me came to my rescue
" If he was keen enough to get up at some ridiculous hour to get here first there is no way you are doing that,this is bullshit, I'll help him through , it won't be a problem "
That OD is still my mate

30 years on I run the odd truck, we will not cart off the AK wharf, it is not worth the hassle. If I need boxes on or off I get another company to run them.

On the other hand about 18 months ago we put a large volume of freight through Tauranga including a considerable amount of break bulk or over dimension cargo. Easy peasy , the port company, stevedores & port workers could not have been more helpful.

POA is a pain in the arse to deal with, inflexible arseholes. Tauranga is a dream in comparison. No wonder Maersk got the shits

Something had to change at POA, it can't carry on with the same old same old.

Ah - very interesting post - thanks. I've had some bad experiences there importing gear and I guess not much has changed.

[MSTRS]

No I dont think I'm biased. Its worked out really good for me personally but its made it hard for young people born here to get jobs.

You were lucky. The reality is that hard as it is for the young job seeker, it only gets harder to get a job as one ages.

[Swoop]

Seriously, why haven't we seen a barrage of pro-union advertisements and interviews putting their point of view.
Whether or not the national radio stations are broadcasting this advert through the country, but each morning I have woken up and heard advertising for the POA wanting workers. They even ask strikers to "talk with their families about what's best".
Rather in-your-face approach, but interesting that there is no rebuttal from the union.

[BoristheBiter]

You were lucky. The reality is that hard as it is for the young job seeker, it only gets harder to get a job as one ages.

I wonder if that has more to do with the caliber of the young job seeker?

[MSTRS]

I wonder if that has more to do with the caliber of the young job seeker?

Are you saying that the young that take the jobs are 'better' than the old(er)? Or that, in order to compete, the old(er) should become more self-centred, unreliable and prone to zits?
:lol:

[Zedder]

Very much so. The laws and regulations around all this are rather convoluted and not what the average joe would think....

the definition of "Council-Controlled Organisation" in the Local Government Act specifically excludes port companies:
(4) The following entities are not council-controlled organisations: ...
(c) a port company or subsidiary of a port company within the meaning of the Port Companies Act 1988
Why is this the case?
The provision seems to have originally been introduced into the Local Government Act 1974 by the Local Government Amendment Act (No 2) 1989, which introduced new provisions about "Local Authority Trading Enterprises (LATES)", which specifically excluded port companies. The reason for that? Because the then-Labour government of Roger Douglas David Lange wanted local bodies to sell their ports.

That's not the latest info Spman, laws change. Ports of Auckland is a CCO and is 100% owned by Auckland Council after being successfully bought by Auckland Regional Holdings in 2005. It is however an "arms length" control by the Council and is actually operated, like other council companies, by Auckland Council Investments Ltd for the ratepayers of Auckland.

[Voltaire]

I had the misfortune to clear a bike I brought back from OZ in the late 80's, after 2 years there I was well used to dealing with unhelpful union people. POA gave me the run around as I was joe public. Took about 2 hours of being pissed about.
A year later in London...same scenario ..... but I had learned how to deal with unions....went up to a bloke " mate, here to collect a bike, do you have a beer fund here I could contribute 20 quid to...."
paperwork done, bike fetched and unpacked in no time.

Never really come across it anywhere else other than Ports.

[Zedder]

Whether or not the national radio stations are broadcasting this advert through the country, but each morning I have woken up and heard advertising for the POA wanting workers. They even ask strikers to "talk with their families about what's best".
Rather in-your-face approach, but interesting that there is no rebuttal from the union.

I don't know which news or social media you and Winston 001 tune into Swoop, but here's an article by the NZ Herald summarising both parties efforts at putting their message across: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/connect/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501833&objectid=10791865

[JMemonic]

There has been talk here of where is the unions major campaign to say what is going on, I got sent this so if you have not seen the unions answer to the POAL advertising here it is.

O and POAL place full pace adverts in the Christchurch press how the hell does that no scream that they are using huge money in there side with us advertising, what worse so many are falling for it.

[BoristheBiter]

There has been talk here of where is the unions major campaign to say what is going on, I got sent this so if you have not seen the unions answer to the POAL advertising here it is.

O and POAL place full pace adverts in the Christchurch press how the hell does that no scream that they are using huge money in there side with us advertising, what worse so many are falling for it.

Welcome to the real world.

I find it hard to believe that POA does not know when ships are due in as it is being portrayed in the above press release.

Maybe a sign of the times that on one is in real support of the unions.

[Swoop]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/connect/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501833&objectid=10791865
If they are "marketing" to the public, they are doing a poor job so far.
Obviously quite difficult for any union to put a balanced reply when the harold or tvnz/3 are there.

JMemonic's post is informative, with a sensible breakdown of some of the issues involved. Wage rates are quite interesting. A person would have to work a lot of hours to get up in the $90k bracket...

[SimJen]

$27+ an hour is still a damn good rate!
In the industry I work in (engineering) thats Foreman rates for a very skilled guy!
These guys are nowhere near as skilled!!! Fact!

[Bald Eagle]

$27+ an hour is still a damn good rate!
In the industry I work in (engineering) thats Foreman rates for a very skilled guy!
These guys are nowhere near as skilled!!! Fact!

That's better money than I make after 12 yerars in I/T - I might go north and start driving a crane :rofl:

[SimJen]

That's better money than I make after 12 yerars in I/T - I might go north and start driving a crane :rofl:

Exactly!
If we pay a foreman that much he's expected to be able to fabricate both light and heavy structural steel, weld (all disciplines), machine, organise, price, deal with customers, site measure, upskill when required etc etc

[avgas]

No I dont think I'm biased. Its worked out really good for me personally but its made it hard for young people born here to get jobs. While its easy to say someone is set in their ways its a lot harder to explain to a bank manager about your casual employment situation when you want a mortgage.
You may be pleasantly supprised to find out what actually happens.

[Zedder]

If they are "marketing" to the public, they are doing a poor job so far.
Obviously quite difficult for any union to put a balanced reply when the harold or tvnz/3 are there.

JMemonic's post is informative, with a sensible breakdown of some of the issues involved. Wage rates are quite interesting. A person would have to work a lot of hours to get up in the $90k bracket...

The Maritime Union is using a different promotional mix that's all.

It seems it's quite difficult for the radio station you mentioned to put a balanced reply across as well, by the sound of it they're pro Ports of Auckland.

[Swoop]

The Maritime Union is using a different promotional mix that's all.

It seems it's quite difficult for the radio station you mentioned to put a balanced reply across as well, by the sound of it they're pro Ports of Auckland.
It's not a radio station bias or commentary. My first post said "advertising" as it is an advert for a company (PoA) wanting employees. The radio station is broadcasting an advert.

[Zedder]

It's not a radio station bias or commentary. My first post said "advertising" as it is an advert for a company (PoA) wanting employees. The radio station is broadcasting an advert.

It's not about the advertising. You used the term rebuttal which is associated with refuting an argument not an advert. I gathered from that the station hadn't broadcast anything at all about the Unions side of the issue.

[Winston001]

I think you need to read up about the entity that is the Ports of Auckland plus how the legislation surrounding it affects the Mayor's power of intervention etc.

Good point so I've tried but not found any explanation yet.

So far as I can tell, POA is owned by an Auckland Council subsidiary company, Auckland Council Investments Ltd. Many local authorities hold their operating businesses in subsidiary companies - it helps to keep them separate from day to day council responsibilities.

Fine. However the directors of the investment arm should be appointed by the council and can be instructed by the council as to what they must do. The classic example is the Auckland Council requirement that POA return 12% in the future. If the council was really powerless that requirement could not be made.

Ok, Len Brown as mayor can't do this himself - I get that. Nevertheless the Ak council could pass a resolution as 100% shareholder to solve the problem - or at least have an open debate.

Happy to be corrected.

[Winston001]

There has been talk here of where is the unions major campaign to say what is going on, I got sent this so if you have not seen the unions answer to the POAL advertising here it is.

O and POAL place full pace adverts in the Christchurch press how the hell does that no scream that they are using huge money in there side with us advertising, what worse so many are falling for it.

To my surprise the balance of money and talent is more even between POA and the Union than I thought.

"This is an alliance of trade unions, a corporate finance consultancy, a logistics company and a city business association. There are probably not many things all four could agree on, but the future of the port appears to have galvanised them into togetherness.


Heart of the City employed public relations firm Pead PR last month to rark up fears (http://www.hotcity.co.nz/pressreleases/0503822001327529772.pdf) of massive encroachment on the harbour by a giant port parking lot.


This was followed last week by its participation in a new ginger group (http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/6432396/Second-week-long-strike-for-port) headed by consultancy Grant Samuel.


The Council of Trade Unions has also joined the ginger group, focusing on its support for the Maritime Union in its battle with the port over working conditions.


All of them are calling on the port's owner Auckland City Council to abandon its focus on maximising profit from the asset and instead think about the wider impact on the city of the port's operation."

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/blogs/the-bottom-line/6454019/A-spinning-sensation-on-the-waterfront

That's a lot of clever influential people who normally wouldn't be in the same room. And yet, my perusal of newspapers, TV news, National Radio, and blogs hasn't revealed strong arguments from the Maritime Union. They just continue to say they won't agree to new work conditions when those conditions already exist at other ports.

[gatch]

$27+ an hour is still a damn good rate!
In the industry I work in (engineering) thats Foreman rates for a very skilled guy!
These guys are nowhere near as skilled!!! Fact!

Tell me about it. I'm fitter/turner. Aside from machining just about everything under the sun, I braze, solder, heights trained, first aid, deal direct with customers, price some jobs, site maintenance, operate hiabs etc. Basically unless it's heavy fab/boiler work, I can build it or fix it. $21/hr...

[Zedder]

Good point so I've tried but not found any explanation yet.

So far as I can tell, POA is owned by an Auckland Council subsidiary company, Auckland Council Investments Ltd. Many local authorities hold their operating businesses in subsidiary companies - it helps to keep them separate from day to day council responsibilities.

Fine. However the directors of the investment arm should be appointed by the council and can be instructed by the council as to what they must do. The classic example is the Auckland Council requirement that POA return 12% in the future. If the council was really powerless that requirement could not be made.

Ok, Len Brown as mayor can't do this himself - I get that. Nevertheless the Ak council could pass a resolution as 100% shareholder to solve the problem - or at least have an open debate.

Happy to be corrected.

Good God man, I should be doing something really important like riding my motorbike but here I am doing this.

But seriously, Len Brown can't take sides and must only do what's right for Aucklanders in this dispute under the legislation for a CCO. It's the same concept as John Key not being able to run an SOE as far as I can tell.

As far as the 12% target goes, it's not a Return on Investment, Return On Assets or Dividend Return but a Return On Equity. It was given the ok by Council based on advice by POA and ACIL and not set by Council.

[pete376403]

That's better money than I make after 12 yerars in I/T - I might go north and start driving a crane :rofl:

$56k per year (27 X 40 X 52) is not that startling, and not that much above the NZ average of $47K9 http://www2.careers.govt.nz/jobs-database/whats-happening-in-the-job-market/who-earns-what/

[JMemonic]

You may be pleasantly supprised to find out what actually happens.

Yes I was, the banks and lenders all said get a full time job, or have a guarantee that you will at least earn the equivalent of 32 hours per week.

[MSTRS]

$56k per year (27 X 40 X 52) is not that startling, and not that much above the NZ average of $47K

Meanwhile, in the real world, hundreds of thousands earn $13.00ph and may work 50/60 hours a week and gross maybe $35000pa...while a few 'earn' millions a year.
The 'average' income figure is so misleading...

[avgas]

Yes I was, the banks and lenders all said get a full time job, or have a guarantee that you will at least earn the equivalent of 32 hours per week.
Yep. Gone are the bad old days when the lend you money you could never pay back (in 35 years).
Mate just got a $400K loan and he contracts out atleast 20 hours a week. So I am guessing he is getting paid more than you.
So in your case "the numbers don't add up". The debt outways your income and they need more hours (or $) on the clock.
They would have assumed that your not likely to get a pay increase in the next 2 years, but can't make the assumption that intrest rates will remain the same with the euro crisis happening.

Which is kind of understandable when you think about what happend in 2008/09.

But feel free to slag the banks some more for using common sense. Banks don't give a fuck what your occupation is, so long as you have the $ to pay the bills.

[Zedder]

Meanwhile, in the real world, hundreds of thousands earn $13.00ph and may work 50/60 hours a week and gross maybe $35000pa...while a few 'earn' millions a year.
The 'average' income figure is so misleading...

The hundreds of thousands earning x amount creates the average though. Those earning large amounts (way above the usual) only slighly affect the figures 'cos there aint many of them.

[MSTRS]

The hundreds of thousands earning x amount creates the average though. Those earning large amounts (way above the usual) only slighly affect the figures 'cos there aint many of them.

Not so.
Everybody who earns has their income added to all the others and then divided by the number of incomes. That gives the average, and there are more than enough with incomes in the millions to drag the average up to an unrealistic level. The median income would tell an entirely different story.

[Maha]

Thats correct John..the average wage/salary projected, is from ''snotty Richard scanning your frozens at the checkout'' through to ''here, let me take the rest of what you have left' Mr Lawyer.

[MSTRS]

What does the CEO of Telecom 'earn' ?
$5M+, is it not. His income is not unusual at that level.
That takes care of 106 people at the so-called 'average' income.

[mashman]

What does the CEO of Telecom 'earn' ?
$5M+, is it not. His income is not unusual at that level.
That takes care of 106 people at the so-called 'average' income.

106 earn their share of 5mill (avg = 47169+change) and 1 person earns 5mill...

they could all be taking home 93457+change :innocent: (wonder how long the business would last without the 106 people v's 1?)

[Zedder]

Not so.
Everybody who earns has their income added to all the others and then divided by the number of incomes. That gives the average, and there are more than enough with incomes in the millions to drag the average up to an unrealistic level. The median income would tell an entirely different story.

Apologies, I mixed my mean up with my median. You can tell it's been a while since I did this stuff.

[JMemonic]

Yep. Gone are the bad old days when the lend you money you could never pay back (in 35 years).
Mate just got a $400K loan and he contracts out atleast 20 hours a week. So I am guessing he is getting paid more than you.
So in your case "the numbers don't add up". The debt outways your income and they need more hours (or $) on the clock.
They would have assumed that your not likely to get a pay increase in the next 2 years, but can't make the assumption that intrest rates will remain the same with the euro crisis happening.

Which is kind of understandable when you think about what happend in 2008/09.

But feel free to slag the banks some more for using common sense. Banks don't give a fuck what your occupation is, so long as you have the $ to pay the bills.

Um where did I slag off the banks? Oh and this want recently and my income was well above the average at the time, however 20 hours per week was in their view not considered full time employment, perhaps they have altered that due to the number of folks with what would have been called part time jobs.

Heck as a kid at school I worked up to 20 hours a week as part time and after school jobs.

[SPman]

$27+ an hour is still a damn good rate!
In the industry I work in (engineering) thats Foreman rates for a very skilled guy!
These guys are nowhere near as skilled!!! Fact!In the industry I'm in, that's what the boys get......that's pathetic - I was getting $22/hr as a chippie in NZ 1989! By 1999, I was getting $20/hr and young guys were saying "gee, that's a lot!!!"
Fuck me! :facepalm:

[Winston001]

But seriously, Len Brown can't take sides and must only do what's right for Aucklanders in this dispute under the legislation for a CCO. It's the same concept as John Key not being able to run an SOE as far as I can tell.

Yep got it now. The Council as the shareholder can appoint directors, make policy, and influence governence decisions. However the Council cannot interfere below directorship level - they cannot tell the POA managers what to do. If they did those managers could take an Employment Tribunal claim, plus I think its in breach of the Local Government Act 2002.

A bit ironic though - Auckland Council's hands are tied by employment law involving an employment law dispute. :facepalm:


As far as the 12% target goes, it's not a Return on Investment, Return On Assets or Dividend Return but a Return On Equity.

Equity = Nett Worth of the business being total assets less debts and liabilities. Nothing magic about that, its what the share-market assesses every day. Shares are commonly referred to as "equities".

But thanks for the info, it all helps build up a picture.

[Hinny]

Everyone is working harder for their$$$ now, get over it!!

Why is that do you suppose?
Haven't seen the rewards of Bill Birch's Employment Contracts Act huh?
We were supposed to become so much better off because we could negotiate our own contracts. Yeah right.
The sheeple bought it then and it seems the sheeple are getting corralled again for another cull.
Sure that legislation got repealed but it left it's legacy.
We live in a society that is a lot better off than it was in Victorian times but worse off than it was before Bill Birch came along.
We shouldn't be working harder today than we were thirty years ago. Should we?
We are headed in the wrong direction.
Working 6 or 7 days a week to survive is just dumb.
It doesn't make a better society.

[Winston001]

We shouldn't be working harder today than we were thirty years ago. Should we?
We are headed in the wrong direction.
.

According to the OECD average, the number of hours worked since 2000 has dropped by 4%.

http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=ANHRS

You have to admit we have a wealthy society. Here we are on a motorcycle site enjoying our passion when most of us have a cage as well. Two cages in most families. Good food, good houses, good streets and roads, a safe community, law and order, laid-back society. Mountains lakes beaches vast empty places you can go within a couple of hours of home. Very few people in the world can say that.

[James Deuce]

According to the OECD average, the number of hours worked since 2000 has dropped by 4%.

You have to admit we have a wealthy society. Here we are on a motorcycle site enjoying our passion when most of us have a cage as well. Two cages in most families. Good food, good houses, good streets and roads, a safe community, law and order, laid-back society.

That's a myth, fostered by those who don't want to see what is happening to "average" NZers. I "enjoy" my passion through charity (that I am happy to accept - it's the only nice thing to happen to me in the last five years). As for the rest of it, well it's a struggle that gets harder day by day, and everyone just points the finger, tells me it's all my fault, and judges me a failure and a thicky. Treasured friends have simply stopped talking to us. Because we make a lie of the myth that there is nothing wrong with NZ society.

[avgas]

I always thought people were working harder because there was less people actually working. No direct evidence to back this up, but even in my firm they went from having a 30 engineers in the 80's to 3 of us now.
Seems pretty much the same everywhere else. Lots more chiefs but decreasing number of Indians.

Of course this is all theory - as mentioned earlier, not evidence to support this.

[MSTRS]

I always thought people were working harder because there was less people actually working. No direct evidence to back this up, but even in my firm they went from having a 30 engineers in the 80's to 3 of us now.
Seems pretty much the same everywhere else. Lots more chiefs but decreasing number of Indians.

Of course this is all theory - as mentioned earlier, not evidence to support this.

Not theory...
Look at Hospitals and the ever-increasing numbers of paper-pushers who are appointed to ensure the board is getting the best use of the money it is allocated to run said hospital. Those paper pushers are paid (often big money) out of that allocation, and because the allocation is a limited amount, something has to go somewhere else...doctors, nurses, ancillary staff...the people who actually do the work for which the hospital exists. Or...
When did we ever see an annual govt Budget that didn't allocate more funding for health? Huge chunks of that are actually going into said paper-pushers. Who produce what, exactly, in terms of more and better patient care? And every year we see the waiting lists get bigger. Oh, wait a minute, that's not true. The criteria for requiring surgery is just tightened year by year, so that big numbers now have to go without, or somehow fund it privately.

Back to your case...3 cannot do the work of 30, unless it was a govt contract, so I'm guessing much of your shop's output was re-sourced from Asia? So 27 engineers either shot through, are (still) sitting on the dole, found a job as a school crossing guard (don't laugh - it happens) or if they were really lucky managed to hire on with another engineer's shop. My money is on most of them having gone overseas or been lucky. But a few will feature in the dole/other stats.

[Ocean1]

Not theory...
Look at Hospitals and the ever-increasing numbers of paper-pushers who are appointed to ensure the board is getting the best use of the money it is allocated to run said hospital. Those paper pushers are paid (often big money) out of that allocation, and because the allocation is a limited amount, something has to go somewhere else...doctors, nurses, ancillary staff...the people who actually do the work for which the hospital exists. Or...
When did we ever see an annual govt Budget that didn't allocate more funding for health? Huge chunks of that are actually going into said paper-pushers. Who produce what, exactly, in terms of more and better patient care? And every year we see the waiting lists get bigger. Oh, wait a minute, that's not true. The criteria for requiring surgery is just tightened year by year, so that big numbers now have to go without, or somehow fund it privately.

A lot of that is true. To some degree. The increase in funding is very true, even measured against GDP. But let's compare apples eh? If you recall; the typical secondary or terciary facility a couple of decades ago amounted to something that could have passed as a school building, with minor differences in equipment. The procedures / interventions now funded now cost many times more than those that were available a couple of decades ago. And that's just the ones that WERE available then. The introduction of new services is always a political decision, and the budget never grows enough to match it. So waiting lists grow... until the govt of the day mandates waiting list minimums. Something else's got to give next eh, and this time it's patient numbers as ACC begin to limit access. So next time a government offers to supply, say herceptin ask what the real costs are, eh?

Oh, and if you'd rather replace those paper pushers with nurses then next time there's a shock: horror story about some aledged, (or actual for that matter) poor service at a hospital how about you think twice before demanding procedural mechanisms be put in place to guarantee compliance to some arbitrary and unachievable ideal. Here's a starter for 5: every ED apearance generates almost 40min of paperwork. Multiply that by a fair hourly rate and then by about 40,000 and you'll get the annual cost for that particular function for that department.

Oh, and the paper pushers? are mostly the nurses themselves.

[Swoop]

I always thought people were working harder because there was less people actually working. No direct evidence to back this up, but even in my firm they went from having a 30 engineers in the 80's to 3 of us now.
Seems pretty much the same everywhere else. Lots more chiefs but decreasing number of Indians.
I see this most every working day. There are far less people at the "pit face" but a fuckload more parasites on the system in back rooms and boardrooms.
The amount of beauracracy that NZ has generated to keep paper-pushers pushing paper is unbelievable for a country of our size.

[Macontour]

You have to admit we have a wealthy society. Here we are on a motorcycle site enjoying our passion when most of us have a cage as well. Two cages in most families. Good food, good houses, good streets and roads, a safe community, law and order, laid-back society. Mountains lakes beaches vast empty places you can go within a couple of hours of home. Very few people in the world can say that.[/QUOTE]

So true. Thank you.

[Robert Taylor]

You have to admit we have a wealthy society. Here we are on a motorcycle site enjoying our passion when most of us have a cage as well. Two cages in most families. Good food, good houses, good streets and roads, a safe community, law and order, laid-back society. Mountains lakes beaches vast empty places you can go within a couple of hours of home. Very few people in the world can say that.

So true. Thank you.[/QUOTE]

I think what you are trying to say is there are forms of wealth other than in tthe monetary sense, in which case we are ''wealthy''. But I do have to agree with some of what James Deuce and others have said, we do have a broken society.

[Paul in NZ]

Quite out of character I ended up reading the weekend herald ..... There was a very in depth piece, mostly POA sided, but they claimed management offered 2.5% p.a. for 3 years plus shift notification one month in advance. I'd probably have taken that to be honest.

BUT I don't actually know much about loading / unloading ships so while people claim the whole 26 hours working per week - that actually might be sensible. ie Back in the day when I worked for a living and we would be doing one of the heavy jobs of say installing 350kg frames and you had a small team - you just couldn't go at it hard all day or you started making mistakes. So you took longer breaks etc.

[trustme]

Quite out of character I ended up reading the weekend herald ..... There was a very in depth piece, mostly POA sided, but they claimed management offered 2.5% p.a. for 3 years plus shift notification one month in advance. I'd probably have taken that to be honest.

BUT I don't actually know much about loading / unloading ships so while people claim the whole 26 hours working per week - that actually might be sensible. ie Back in the day when I worked for a living and we would be doing one of the heavy jobs of say installing 350kg frames and you had a small team - you just couldn't go at it hard all day or you started making mistakes. So you took longer breaks etc.

The ' ups ' system was finally canned not that many years ago. In the good old days pre containers when cargo was loaded & unloaded by hand, 2 shifts worked at the same time, forty minutes on 40 minutes off. That continued for years , well after containers arrived & the heavy manual labour aspect of the job was long gone. Going down late in the arvo was not clever as many guys were pissed. Friday afternoon was a right fuck round , hopeless. Those were the days.
Driving a straddle is not much different to a forklift or a digger or truck or bus or a crane, those guys can all manage a full 40 hours & some, just another piece of machinery

I can't reconcile the $27/hr no penal rates with earning $90000, who is being less than truthful ??

[Hinny]

I can't reconcile the $27/hr no penal rates with earning $90000, who is being less than truthful ??

That sensationalism is the product of the $150 - 250 an hour PR people POA hired.
- Hey, isn't that our money they are wasting to convey misconception.
- The winning of hearts and minds... for what purpose.
- From the comments in this thread they have been very successful.

Getting back to my point about working harder these days.
Winston argues that we work less and are very wealthy.
'Wealthy' is a very subjective measure.
It is simply not something that can be expressed in dollars and cents.
That is a common misconception that results in poor decision making and associated courses of action.
The problem is the failure to recognise all the costs and benefits associated with competing choices; that is a fundamental flaw of accounting.
Attempts have been, and will continue to be, made to address this problem.
That 'problem' is a fundamental flaw in the ethos of this government and why they continue to make stupid decisions that our society has to suffer.
It was demonstrated by the Port worker who spoke out about working double shift weeks. Sure he was earning more money but his health suffered and his family life suffered. He never saw his kids and he was tired and grumpy all the time. Was he better off? He didn't think so.
'Well-offness' is determined by your values. What you'll do for ten bucks / what you'll pay ten bucks for.
Making society more 'Well-off' should be the role of the government.
Making NZ society more well-off should be the role of the NZ govt.
Has this Govt. fulfilled or abdicated this role?

It is also a role of the Unions. The fewer people paying their union fees and the ravages of Govt. legislation has resulted in Unions losing a lot of their strength.
This has contributed to greater disparity in economic wealth. One of the major contributors to our slide on the OECD scale of Well-offness.
This is considered a successful outcome by right-wing govts. who steadfastly believe the old mantra of 'Trickle Down'. ... Still! :facepalm:

[trustme]

Thanks for the rant, long on gobbledegook but did not even attempt to answer the question.
I suspect the union is equally guilty of peddling misconception & manipulating the media.
Obviously you have fallen for it.

[JMemonic]

Thanks for the rant, long on gobbledegook but did not even attempt to answer the question.
I suspect the union is equally guilty of peddling misconception & manipulating the media.
Obviously you have fallen for it.

Where is this information you speak of, so far the only thing I have seen is what I posted, and interestingly that was sent to me by someone in AKL, where as I have seen full page adverts in the Christchurch Press from POAL claiming they offered 10% pay and a raft of other things.

[BoristheBiter]

Where is this information you speak of, so far the only thing I have seen is what I posted, and interestingly that was sent to me by someone in AKL, where as I have seen full page adverts in the Christchurch Press from POAL claiming they offered 10% pay and a raft of other things.

so where is the unions press release to say the POA didn't offer this?

[Hinny]

Have all the haters believed that the average wage for these port workers is $90+ K for 26 hours of work a week?

Do you think the union has the same resources available as POA to 'win hearts and minds', or manipulate the public as some suggest?

Are suggestions that there is more going on than meets the eye just more conspiracy theories?

Gullible much?
Perhaps putting brains into gear before mouths might be the order of the day.

[Hinny]

We live in a world that is paradoxical.

We pursue happiness
and it leads to resentment,
and it leads to unhappiness
and an explosion of mental illness.

This is clearly demonstrated in the sycophantic, dribbling scribbles of the union bashers.

[Winston001]

We pursue happiness
and it leads to resentment,
and it leads to unhappiness
and an explosion of mental illness.


You are absolutely right and you know why? - because no-one can argue with you.




Now, where did you put the Seroquel tablets? Yes its time to take one - in fact take two. You'll feel so much better. :innocent:

[JMemonic]

so where is the unions press release to say the POA didn't offer this?

Um I sent it through, I guess you don't have an idea of the cost of a full page ad, let alone one in several major newspapers.

[Zedder]

According to the Herald this morning, they're all back at work in the good ole POA.

[SPman]

and now they've all been locked out again.....

Ports workers were served an official lockout notice from Ports of Auckland management this morning, just hours before a vote to end lengthy strike action.
and........


A Ports of Auckland manager who was at the bargaining table with the Maritime Union has been linked to a company hiring non-union wharfies. The man has allegedly been recruiting staff for a new company, Pacific Crew Holdings Ltd, which was registered with the Companies Office on February 27.
The timing of the new company - nine days before Ports of Auckland announced it would replace 235 striking union members with non-union wharfies - has raised concerns at the Auckland Council, which owns the port company.




don't you just love it.........:corn:

[Zedder]

What the....?

[Winston001]

and now they've all been locked out again.....

That's no big deal. Its only effective from 6 April. What the POA are doing is saying to MUNZ - We will negotiate but no mucking around. Not another 3 months "bargaining" getting nowhere.

Underlying that I suspect POA believe the union leaders will be so insulted that the strike will continue. The union members will then face more weeks with no income and become disillusioned with their leadership = union collapses and they accept the POA terms.

[Winston001]

and........

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/images/BP-Brown/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by NZ Harald

A Ports of Auckland manager who was at the bargaining table with the Maritime Union has been linked to a company hiring non-union wharfies. The man has allegedly been recruiting staff for a new company, Pacific Crew Holdings Ltd, which was registered with the Companies Office on February 27.
The timing of the new company - nine days before Ports of Auckland announced it would replace 235 striking union members with non-union wharfies - has raised concerns at the Auckland Council, which owns the port company.

don't you just love it.........:corn:

I share your disbelief. Its one thing for POA to establish a subsidiary stevedoring company (they haven't) but quite another for one of their staff to establish such a business. Ok maybe he had permission but it taints the whole POA vs MUNZ process.

[caspernz]

This whole story keeps getting more bizarre by the day. Gotta feel sorry for the guys who are out on strike in a way, but I reckon Winston you're onto the idea...crush the union movement altogether is the end aim of POA. Just wonder how much it'll cost the Auckland ratepayers....

[Paul in NZ]

This fish seems to be rotting from the head down......

[JimO]

Gotta feel sorry for the guys who are out on strike in a way,

not if you were around in the 70s and 80s fuck the unions

[Swoop]

What the POA are doing is saying to MUNZ - We will negotiate but no mucking around. Not another 3 months "bargaining" getting nowhere.
Hmm. I see it the other way around, that the management ate the sticking point and refusing to settle negotiations. Not sure why...
Perhaps it was the intransigent attitude of my employer who stalled negotiations for three years and let the employment agreement expire, waiting until their demands were met.

[Hinny]

You are absolutely right and you know why? - because no-one can argue with you.

I'm not Machiavelli.
It is more simple than that.
No 1 rule to winning an argument could be 'don't choose an unwinnable side'.
If you choose an untenable argument then as rationality reaches its limit you are up against it and you just bite.
I'm not sure of what you might have taken offense from but be assured that any offense given was not intended or directed at you.
Although we appear to not agree on some things I do respect your right to your opinion.



Now, where did you put the Seroquel tablets? Yes its time to take one - in fact take two. You'll feel so much better. :innocent:

That you have knowledge of such medication is .... disturbing; enlightening?

[Winston001]

I'm not Machiavelli.
It is more simple than that.
No 1 rule to winning an argument could be 'don't choose an unwinnable side'.
If you choose an untenable argument then as rationality reaches its limit you are up against it and you just bite.
I'm not sure of what you might have taken offense from but be assured that any offense given was not intended or directed at you.
Although we appear to not agree on some things I do respect your right to your opinion.




That you have knowledge of such medication is .... disturbing; enlightening?

LOL bling sent. :D

[Bassmatt]

not if you were around in the 70s and 80s fuck the unions

To me this is the exact opposite of what happened in the 70s and 80s

[Winston001]

Hmm. I see it the other way around, that the management ate the sticking point and refusing to settle negotiations. Not sure why...
Perhaps it was the intransigent attitude of my employer who stalled negotiations for three years and let the employment agreement expire, waiting until their demands were met.

Ok I can certainly understand your perspective.

There is a bit of woolly thinking in the general population when it comes to employment law. The law protects workers jobs/conditions and is interpreted by the Employment Courts in favour of workers.

However the "good faith bargaining" rule is believed by many people to mean your employer must bend in negotiations, must give way, must accept the employees counter proposals. Not so.

What good faith does mean is the employer must fairly consider the employee's suggestions and look for reasonable compromises - the employer cannot up-front refuse to listen.

However - as this is the biggie - the employer owns the job. The employer lawfully manages the business and make the best employment decisions required to keep the business operating. If that means new reduced terms of employment, or redundancy, he is able to make that decision. The restriction is he must be able to show good faith and fair process in reaching the final decision.

[SPman]

The Port of Auckland’s refusal to let the stevedores return to work now that they have lifted their strike notice is a lock-out. There are specific legal requirements around strikes and lock-outs at ports and other essential services – notice must be given in writing and with 14 days’ notice. The Port’s lock-out is illegal. And it’s costing Auckland millions.

I’ve collated the relevant provisions of the Employment Relations Act (http://legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2000/0024/latest/whole.html#DLM60300) (82(1)(a)(iv), 91(1)(b)(i), 91(2)(a), 83(b)(i), 91(3)(a)(i), and Schedule 1 Part A 7) into a single passage
Lockout means an act that is the act of an employer in refusing or failing to engage employees for any work for which the employer usually employs employees.
No employer engaged in an essential service may lock out any employees who are employed in the essential service the proposed lockout will affect the public interest, including (without limitation) public safety or health; and the proposed lockout relates to bargaining for a collective agreement that will bind each of the employees concerned without having given to the employees’ union or unions and to the chief executive, within 28 days before the date of commencement of the lockout, notice in writing of the employer’s intention to lock out; and before the date specified in the notice as the date on which the lockout will begin.
The notice required must specify the period of notice, being a period that is no less than 14 days in the case of an essential service including the provision of all necessary services in connection with the arrival, berthing, loading, unloading, and departure of ships at a port.


So, clearly what the Port is doing now (“refusing or failing to engage employees for any work for which the employer usually employs employees”) is a lockout. And it has been done without 14 days’ notice as required for a port. Doesn't seem like good faith to me.......


How much has it cost so far..........
$12.7 million in lost custom so far during the strikes plus $25 million a year to permanently lost Fonterra and Maersk business plus hundreds of thousands for the Port’s PR campaign and legal costs. All of this in an effort to transfer $6 million a year from the workers’ wages to the Port’s profit line. The question now is why Auckland Council is paying Pearson $200,000 a year for two days’ work a week and Tony Gibson $590,000 a year to wreck its port and cost it tens of millions in lost custom and fines, not to mention the wider costs to Auckland economy.
Costs? Well, Maersk were going to go to Tauranga anyway, but the rest...lookslike ACC's budget is shot for a while........:corn:

[Hinny]

Good post.
Apparently I have to spread some bling ...<label for="rb_iconid_14">http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/images/icons/icon14.png</label>

[SimJen]

interesting comments from the EMA:

From EMA CEO Kim Campbell

The Ports of Auckland lock out announced yesterday had many people asking: What’s going on? Has everybody involved lost the plot?

An informed observation of what’s in the media tells me otherwise. Upon reflection my confidence in the process being followed by the port is unchanged.

The facts are that under our current industrial relations law governing collective agreements, all parties must continue to negotiate to try and come to an agreement. No end point is specified.

But the harsh reality is that there will be occasions when an agreement is not possible and this is plainly one of those times.

The point at issue swings on the Port’s insistence it must retain the authority to contract out the labour required for it to operate. This provision was in the previous collective agreement it had with the Maritime Union which expired last August, and in fact the port has always had this right.

The dispute initially blew up over manning the shuttle service between the port and the inland port. When its staffing became non–unionized, the Maritime Union saw that as the thin edge of a wedge.

The situation now is that the Union seemed to think the Court judgement earlier this week for the parties to return to mediation meant its 300 workers could go back to work as if nothing had happened. They lost sight of the people currently working the port whose rosters were in place, and that those rosters were for 12 hour shifts, no longer 8 hours, and that due to the strikes there was precious little work available. On top of that other procedures had changed; bringing back striking workers would have health and safety implications.

The work being done is also at world class rates of productivity – over 30 container movements an hour. And though operating with only about 30 staff the port has been achieving 30 per cent of normal capacity.

With changed rosters and procedures altered, it is entirely unrealistic for the workers on strike over many weeks to rock up as if nothing had happened.

Then came the lock out notice. This appeared to be an attempt to fight fire with fire. Though the union has been on strike for many weeks, the port, unusually in cases like this, has been prepared to negotiate during the strike action.

On the surface, issuing the lock out notice to apply in 14 days time might seem vindictive but it is in fact the only lever available to remind the union who is paying the bills and that the port’s management must retain its right to manage.

Members who think Mayor Len Brown should intervene may also like to reconsider. The Mayor has hired Alan Galbraith QC to advise him. Mr Galbraith has built an enviable reputation on issues relating to corporate governance which indicates to us that the Mayor may have shifted his inquiry into the murky waters of the city’s governance structures.

As you know, the Ports of Auckland is governed by its Board, which in turn answers to its stakeholder, Auckland Council Investments Ltd (ACIL). The City Council controls these companies by appointing their directors. It has no direct control through the casting of proxy votes.

In normal corporate law, a company’s directors must act in the interests of the company, not its shareholders. The shareholders have the right to appoint the Board.

My personal view is that should Auckland Council try to intervene with what could easily be perceived with political motivations, the port’s directors would likely feel compelled to resign. Though it is possible, though unlikely, that new directors could be found, from a practical standpoint it seems Auckland Council cannot do much to resolve the situation.

However the ownership and location of the port are largely red herrings, and arguably these industrial issues should have been sorted out a decade ago.

The take homes from all this have not changed. First we must order our affairs to minimize harm to our businesses in the hope and expectation that the gains in the longer term will pay off.

Secondly, the law governing collective agreements plainly needs to change and we will be working diligently to achieve this.

[Howie]

interesting comments from the EMA:



Doesn't look like everone in Auckland agrees with them.



Joint Media Release from 32 Auckland Council Local Board Members

22 March 2012



Local Board Members call for Auckland Council Governing Body to act on Ports Lockout



Thirty two Auckland Council Local Board members* today banded together to call for immediate action from their colleagues on the Governing Body of Auckland Council in the wake of the lock-out of workers at the Ports of Auckland.

“This is an extraordinary situation and it is now clear that the Ports of Auckland management and Board are out of control and exposing the Auckland economy to enormous risk”, say the Board Members.



“On Wednesday the Court ordered a return to good faith bargaining and a halt to out-sourcing by the company. Yet on Thursday POAL insisted that they will still proceed with out-sourcing, and locked out the entire workforce. It is our belief that they do not actually want bargaining to succeed and that good faith and the Local Governmant Act requirement to be a 'good employer' is being seriously breached by a Council owned company”



“Workers would also appear to be locked out prior to the legally allowable two week notice period. This means that POAL may be locking out in direct breach of the law. For Auckland’s port to be held back from being fully worked because of a possibly illegal action by the company is completely unacceptable”



“The situation has now spiralled completely out of control. The court provided an opportunity for a reasonable good-faith settlement to be reached, but POAL has intransigently chosen to go down the route of conflict”



“The matter can no longer be considered operational. It is a strategic crisis affecting all of Auckland, and our political leaders have a right and a responsibility to act. With at least $12.7 million in revenue lost due to the dispute to date, for what appears to be a pre-determined contracting out strategy, the judgment of POAL management and Board must be questioned. We call on the Mayor and the Governing Body of Auckland Council to urgently consider the actions of its company, and to directly question whether they can continue to support the Boards of ACIL and POAL who have mis-managed the situation so badly”, conclude the Board members.



ENDS



Contact - Michael Wood, 022-659-6360

Full list of Local Board Members issuing this statement:
* Please note that each Board member issuing this statement does so in their own right only, and not on behalf of their Board.



Helga Arlington, Albert-Eden
Josephine Bartley, Maungakiekie-Tamaki
Leila Boyle, Maungakiekie-Tamak (Chair)
Jesse Chalmbers, Waitemata
Shale Chambers, Waitemata (Chair)
Caroline Conroy, Papakura
Pippa Coom, Waitemata
Christopher Dempsey, Waitemata
Graeme Easte, Albert-Eden
Carrol Elliot, Mangere-Otahuhu
Tunumafono Ava Fa'amoe, Otara-Papatoetoe
Julie Fairey, Puketapapa
Catherine Farmer, Whau
Grant Gillon, Kaipataki
John Gillon, Kaipataki
Mary Gush, Otara-Papatoetoe
Peter Haynes, Albert-Eden (Chair)
Neil Henderson, Waitakere Ranges
Richard Hills, Kaipataki
Viv Keohane, Kaipataki
Chris Makoare, Maungakiekie-Tamaki
Tracey Martin, Rodney
Christine O'Brien, Mangere-Otahuhu
Greg Presland, Waitakere Ranges
Simon Randall, Maungakiekie-Tamaki
Tricia Reade, Waitemata
Leau Peter Skelton, Mangere-Otahuhu (Chair)
Lydia Sosene, Mangere-Otahuhu
Alan Verrall, Maungakiekie-Tamaki
Margi Watson, Albert-Eden
Michael Wood, Puketapapa
Denise Yates, Waitakere Ranges (Chair)

[trustme]

Shows how out of touch & unrealistic these local council boards can be. They don't understand the basics . You wonder why local councils are such a mess & why our rates are skyrocketing , just look at the calibre of them.

[avgas]

not if you were around in the 70s and 80s fuck the unions
I dunno I got heaps of "Don't tread on Me" snake stickers for my lunch box lol. My philosophy is simple, "don't want me around then see you later".
No need for a union to hold my hand as I walk out the door.

[avgas]

We live in a world that is paradoxical.

We pursue happiness
and it leads to resentment,
and it leads to unhappiness
and an explosion of mental illness.

This is clearly demonstrated in the sycophantic, dribbling scribbles of the union bashers.
So drive is the devil. You should just give up now and be happy.
Be collectively happy if you wish - but don't expect me to hold your hand. I'm a big boy now.

[avgas]

Back to your case...3 cannot do the work of 30, unless it was a govt contract, so I'm guessing much of your shop's output was re-sourced from Asia? So 27 engineers either shot through, are (still) sitting on the dole, found a job as a school crossing guard (don't laugh - it happens) or if they were really lucky managed to hire on with another engineer's shop. My money is on most of them having gone overseas or been lucky. But a few will feature in the dole/other stats.
Cheers for the response. Yep what actually happened is most of that 27 have now got off the tools. I am actually trying to join them. There is no reward for being qualified in NZ (in most cases), more reward in being someone who gets the sale rather than does the job.

While I did feel for these port workers, I don't anymore. You make the bed, you fucken sleep in it. Unions crying over spilt milk is pathetic - either move on or move off. Don't be a cock about it and stop other people from doing their jobs. What kind of person does that?
Someone needs to drive a snow plow through those fuckers in the morning - do that shit in front of the council building not the ports where people like the rescue chopper crew are driving.

[Ocean1]

Yep what actually happened is most of that 27 have now got off the tools. I am actually trying to join them. There is no reward for being qualified in NZ (in most cases), more reward in being someone who gets the sale rather than does the job.

Don't know where it came from but it's definitely a Kiwi thing. Not surprising a lot of them don't come back from their OE where they're better recognised, better paid and there's far better prospects.

I was once advised not to get into tech development roles on the basis that "there's nothing as obsolete as a successful development engineer." It's true enough, but the obsolescence is driven by the belief that the company is marketing a product. It's not.

[Hinny]

Would, or could, the Union haters give examples of the societies that exemplify their industrial relations policy ideals?

[mashman]

Don't know where it came from but it's definitely a Kiwi thing. Not surprising a lot of them don't come back from their OE where they're better recognised, better paid and there's far better prospects.

It ain't just a Kiwi thing :no:... Tis an attitude associated with capitalism :shutup: and it happens in just about every country in the world in just about every field of human endeavour. I didn't come here for the money... but it seems as though things really aren't that different in comparison to the little island I came from. Something I didn't expect. Hey ho.

[Swoop]

The restriction is he must be able to show good faith and fair process in reaching the final decision.
"Good faith" is not a term that could have been applied in our extremely protracted negotiations... Even mediation was a farce.

[Winston001]

Would, or could, the Union haters give examples of the societies that exemplify their industrial relations policy ideals?

I don't think there is a blanket anti-union bias here or in the general population. The Service and Food Workers Union which represents aged care workers and other low paid employees seems to get public sympathy. Even the freezing workers on strike don't draw the opprobrium of a generation ago.

The waterfront has been a bottle-neck and focus of power ever since trade between nations became important. It is a critical point in an economy, the one spot where exports and imports come together. So its no surprise that with the rise of trade unionism, waterfronts around the world have experienced stoppages. The answer generally is to pay the men more and keep the port operating.

Times change. Technologies change. The Port of Tauranga only a short distance from Auckland functions well and with greater throughput than Auckland. Presumably the workers there aren't fools. Currently people are working on the Auckland wharves. Presumably they aren't fools either. The POA continues to function.

So we have to ask ourselves whether MUNZ is really protecting its members or is fighting a rear-guard action to protect historical power and control on the waterfront.

Interesting times.

[Hinny]

I don't think there is a blanket anti-union bias here or in the general population.

Not a blanket anti-union bias on Kb - granted; but it is a majority one.

Is there anyone able to put up and have the courage of their convictions?

Give examples of countries that don't have a unionised labour force that they see as a shining example of the type of society they would like to live in.

[avgas]

Don't know where it came from but it's definitely a Kiwi thing. Not surprising a lot of them don't come back from their OE where they're better recognised, better paid and there's far better prospects.
I was once advised not to get into tech development roles on the basis that "there's nothing as obsolete as a successful development engineer." It's true enough, but the obsolescence is driven by the belief that the company is marketing a product. It's not.
Mash has said it already, but sadly not just a NZ thing (or a capitalist thing - case and point china/russia).
In Aussie I had 3 managers who managed me and the projects I was on. I had to sign 3 different reports a week. When I walked out the door - they suddenly realized all the i.p. was not in their reports.....but my head. The projects collapsed like a house of cards.

There will always be a power grabber, and there will always be people who break their backs to put bread on the table. Not sure what happens when that ratio gets out of whack.....but suspect we will see eventually.
I guess I can be thankful that I am now qualified (or is that diversified) enough to go up or fall back.

[ellipsis]

...it's a game of money and merchants and power and backhanders and lies and good people and arseholes and downright cunts and happy in their pile of shit people on the sidelines and forever it shall be...cyclic swings of influence are just a normal part of a world we HAVE to play in...power to the people...workers of the world unite...down with the despots, are all just words vying with the age old 'I'm alright Jack', attitude that the dishonest and sometimes naive politicians wend their self justifying lies about and depend on....

...when all of the populace realises that their next decision in life is up to them and we stop rewarding lazy,apathetic, relentlessly breeding, bludgers and losers and our kids get a kick in the arse for the own wellbeing and the leaders actually lead by example instead of leading the race to the trough and people realised that just 'cos you want it doesn't make it yours....we may be able to sort it all out...'til then, pick your side or stay ineffectually stuck in the middle for the duration, which is generally a long time...a good old fashioned Queen and Country war always sorts things out...they seem a thing of the past...carry on...as an aside...my son just started a job in oz...three days labour paid him more than five and a half as a time served m/c mechanic here...hard working kiwis are being royally fucked by a bunch of thieving bastards...end of story..

[avgas]

Give examples of countries that don't have a unionised labour force that they see as a shining example of the type of society they would like to live in.
Name a country that doesn't have a church? an Army? a tax department?

I have said it before here, but feel I should repeat it "I'm and engineer who dreams of utopia - but never gets the budget"
But this is an interesting read. http://open.salon.com/blog/steve_klingaman/2012/02/22/foxconn_raises_wages_why
- Did the unions of China force the Foxconn pay rise?
- Did the bloggers/activists of the world force it?
- Did Foxconn force it?
- Did Apple force it?

and most importantly
- IF the price got to high and Foxconn automated its plant, firing all the workers - would there have been an advantage?

I have no problem with the union model - only with the people who step up to run it. Its now a global economy, unions need to wake up to this fact - they need to stop being a problem of why work is becoming a problem and start becoming a solution.
I haven't seen a single Port Union worker in talks with Maersk (and others) to see if they can resolve the issue. I haven't seen a single Port Union worker saying they are in talks with parties to create a second port of Auckland.
Seems they like to sit safely behind the employment laws and say
http://traditionalchristianity.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/its-not-fair.jpg

Well boys, throw your toys all you want. PoT workers are buying new cars and houses while you fuck around.
Its a big bad world out there.

[Ocean1]

Mash has said it already, but sadly not just a NZ thing (or a capitalist thing - case and point china/russia).

Managers. Confidence isn't all it's cracked up to be...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

[Hinny]

I haven't seen a single Port Union worker in talks with Maersk (and others) to see if they can resolve the issue.

I wonder why that is.
Would you normally be privy to such a meeting ?

What issue would they be attempting to resolve talking with Maersk.

[RDJ]

Not a blanket anti-union bias on Kb - granted; but it is a majority one.

Is there anyone able to put up and have the courage of their convictions?

Give examples of countries that don't have a unionised labour force that they see as a shining example of the type of society they would like to live in.

Your "challenge" is a non sequitur. We in KB already live in the society that we like to live in = New Zealand.
It's not a question of blanket anti-union bias, it's that most of us prefer our country not allow people with a chokehold on an industrial artery such as the Port dragging industrial relations back to the 50s/60s. If you approve of the Union taking this sort of action - are you then comfortable for frontline nurses or doctors or other vital industries taking similar action?

[Hinny]

Your "challenge" is a non sequitur. We in KB already live in the society that we like to live in = New Zealand.
It's not a question of blanket anti-union bias, it's that most of us prefer our country not allow people with a chokehold on an industrial artery such as the Port dragging industrial relations back to the 50s/60s. If you approve of the Union taking this sort of action - are you then comfortable for frontline nurses or doctors or other vital industries taking similar action?

I disagree.
We clearly have a large number of people living in New Zealand that are not happy with the society we have and want to change it.
The point I was trying to make is that the end result of the adoption of many of the ideals they espouse is a recipe for disaster. Policies that are the norm in those countries that are at the bottom of the Standard of Living index.
Should we not be adopting the policies of countries at the top of said index?

You are clearly of the opinion that the union is the bad guy in this dispute.
Judicial reviews notwithstanding huh?
Notwithstanding the heavy PR campaigns waged by the POA that have been shown to be misleading at best.
Are you privy to information about this dispute that the general public is not aware of?

Is it not time to dispel illusion and hatred?

Of note perhaps is that the 50s/60s were the golden years for NZ. When we once reigned supreme in the Standard of Living Index.

[Hinny]

Here is a relevant non sequiter.
http://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/2012/03/08#mutable_758133

[trustme]

I disagree.
We clearly have a large number of people living in New Zealand that are not happy with the society we have and want to change it.
The point I was trying to make is that the end result of the adoption of many of the ideals they espouse is a recipe for disaster. Policies that are the norm in those countries that are at the bottom of the Standard of Living index.
Should we not be adopting the policies of countries at the top of said index?

You are clearly of the opinion that the union is the bad guy in this dispute.
Judicial reviews notwithstanding huh?
Notwithstanding the heavy PR campaigns waged by the POA that have been shown to be misleading at best.
Are you privy to information about this dispute that the general public is not aware of?

Is it not time to dispel illusion and hatred?

Of note perhaps is that the 50s/60s were the golden years for NZ. When we once reigned supreme in the Standard of Living Index.

I am not necessarily anti union but there is a bloody big HOWEVER. Hatred seems to be mainly coming from the likes of Helen Kelly & her ilk who are equally as disingenuous as the POA , both are being extremely self serving in their propoganda. POA has a goal of increasing productivity , the unions can go along for the ride or fuck off ultimately the choice is theirs.

The 50's & 60's were indeed our golden years. Our markets were guaranteed , imports were severely restricted so the local market was protected the cost plus mentality ruled. Unions became extremely powerful over this period, that power extended into the 70's & 80's but our markets were no longer guaranteed, we had to compete with the rest of the world. A bloody cold hard lesson should have been learned when the medicine for the countries woes was given in the form of Rogernomics. The lesson was not learnt by the last labour govt who set about recreating the warm cosy 60's. A recession comes along & more unpleasant medicine is necessary.
Harking back to the good old days is futile, lets think of some of the union shit from those days.
BNZ Bulding Wgtn a skeleton on the skyline for years
Mangere Bridge, we wondered if the 2 ends would ever meet
Ferries , every school holiday they went on strike
Pulp & Paper industry, you would not believe some of the demarcation shit, was it a fitter or a sparkies job to take the doors off an electrical panel, lets strike while we sort it.
Fitter leaves a spanner behind, supervisor picks it up & returns it to him, all out because the supervisor was working
Steel Mill Supervisor while driving to work on a filthy wet day picks up 2 guys waiting for the co supplied bus. Stop work called, he was doing the bus drivers job
Brick Works Vote to strike is lost , union organiser calls another ballot while delegates stand at strategic places around the room , vote to strike carried

I could fill pages with this shit , 50's/ 60's the halcyon days or simply the calm before the storm.
I was surprised this week while dealing with a straddle driver from another port. In no particular order, He thought the AK guys were dickheads, It's cushiest job he ever had, Mid $20's / hr, 5 weeks leave, medical insurance for the family, $ for $ pension scheme, thought Tauranga needed improved training as they had a high accident rate [ 1 of the accidents he talked about I have a little knowledge of , the deceased was a very safety conscious worker who ran the companies safety training seminars , shit can happen to the best of us ]

I don't hate the unions but I sure as hell don't have much time for the organisers who are only to keen to take men out on strike. The organiser plays politics and still gets paid while the wives & kids at home are the ones who really pay the price. The families are the real losers in all this, the fat cat organisers cry crocodile tears.

[Macontour]

When Lee Iacocca left Ford and went to Chrysler in the 70s, he had massive problems to deal with. The US auto industry was in pieces, tens of thousands of jobs were at risk. One of the biggest problems was the Unions and the way they ran the workers. The workers only had to work 30 years for the company and could retire on a full pension, they and their families got all sorts of medical care paid for and so on. Eventually, to save the company, one of the things Iacocca had to do was call the Union heads in and tell them he had thousands of jobs at $17/hour and none at $20/hour(70s wages!!!!) and they had until the morning to decide whether they would drop their demands or he would declare bankruptcy.

His autobiography is a very interesting read. It is 30 years old now but he is a very wise man and many of the issues he mentions in that book occured in the US two years ago with the collapse of the financial system and all the automaakers requiring Government bailouts yet again.

[trustme]

The so called lefties, unions & labourites won't read it. The real world is an anathema to them.
Gotta remember, 300 wharfies end up unemployed with no income, no food on the table but Helen Kelly & her ilk will not go short of a feed while blaming everyone else for the consequences of the unions actions.

A successful business realises that it's most valuable asset is it's staff. A business that treats it's staff poorly will have low moral & high staff turnover , bad for business. Sure there are some bad businesses that treat their staff poorly but think on this. For years the POA was a closed shop , no one could get a job on the wharf without inside or family help, it just did not happen . Why do you think that was ?? Maybe just maybe the wharfies knew what a bloody good racket they were on & sought to protect it. Maybe that is still the case, unfortunately for them time is up.

[James Deuce]

Didn't see the Union do anything except request good faith negotiations.

Saw POA break Employment law, over and over. Anyone who keeps criminals on in a Strategic management role needs their heads read.

[trustme]

Didn't see the Union do anything except request good faith negotiations.

Saw POA break Employment law, over and over. Anyone who keeps criminals on in a Strategic management role needs their heads read.

Be specific , which law did they break. Who are the criminals you refer to , there has been no trial or conviction to create the so called criminal or does due process not apply in this case. The councils hands are tied whether they like it or not
Try reading the whole thread numb skull.

[James Deuce]

Be specific , which law did they break. Who are the criminals you refer to , there has been no trial or conviction to create the so called criminal or does due process not apply in this case. The councils hands are tied whether they like it or not
Try reading the whole thread numb skull.

The recent lock out was illegal. The Council's hands are NOT tied in the strategic sense. Numb Skull.

[Hinny]

' POA has a goal of increasing productivity , the unions can go along for the ride or fuck off ultimately the choice is theirs.'

I wonder where you got this idea from.
Is it not true the Ak. port had an impressive record?
'One of the best'; 'Award winning', I remember reading.




'...the medicine for the countries woes was given in the form of Rogernomics. The lesson was not learnt by the last labour govt who set about recreating the warm cosy 60's. A recession comes along & more unpleasant medicine is necessary'.

Yes, the last Labour govt. did a massive job to make us more well-off that too few people seem to appreciate.
Yes, we had the World Economic Crisis of 2007/2008 and due to the policies adopted by that Govt. NZ was able to weather the storm . It has been reported that we and Australia weathered it better than everyone else.
Labour were voted out of power with net zero debt.
Look at the situation now.
I do hope you are not suggesting tax cuts was a necessary medicine.
Before anyone cries the economic crisis is still with us, I say that argument is illusory. It certainly hasn't been for many countries with some experiencing record growth.
Our problems are of our own making. - Standard & Poors seemed to be of this opinion.

Warm and cosy sounds a lot better than getting kicked in the nuts to me.
Unfortunately too many masochists voted and we lost the first option and are being forced to live the second.
I, for one, don't like it.

[trustme]

The recent lock out was illegal. The Council's hands are NOT tied in the strategic sense. Numb Skull.

Your opinion on the lockout is precisely that , there has been no judgement that I am aware of . The council may not like what is happening but I suspect their hands are tied, they try to override the POA & who would ever want to try & run POA afterwards. The downside of interfering may very well outweigh the upside.
I am not be in total agreement with the POA attitude, they certainly seem intent on picking a fight, I suspect they will have some pretty high powered employment lawyers advising them. I would expect them to have their ducks in a row but stranger things have happened.

[trustme]

Yes, the last Labour govt. did a massive job to make us more well-off that too few people seem to appreciate.
Yes, we had the World Economic Crisis of 2007/2008 and due to the policies adopted by that Govt. NZ was able to weather the storm . It has been reported that we and Australia weathered it better than everyone else.
Labour were voted out of power with net zero debt.
Look at the situation now.
I do hope you are not suggesting tax cuts was a necessary medicine.
Before anyone cries the economic crisis is still with us, I say that argument is illusory. It certainly hasn't been for many countries with some experiencing record growth.
Our problems are of our own making. - Standard & Poors seemed to be of this opinion.

Warm and cosy sounds a lot better than getting kicked in the nuts to me.
Unfortunately too many masochists voted and we lost the first option and are being forced to live the second.
I, for one, don't like it.



Greece felt nice & cosy, wonder how their nuts feel now.

[Hinny]

Greece felt nice & cosy, wonder how their nuts feel now.

We were getting well looked after during extreme economic difficulties.
Now we are on a roll with record export receipts, greater tax take etc.etc. and we are going down the tubes flat out.


Typical Tory behaviour though isn't it?
Wacking each others dicks in a drawer.
Repeating failed policy programs, expecting a different outcome.

[avgas]

I wonder why that is.
Would you normally be privy to such a meeting ?

What issue would they be attempting to resolve talking with Maersk.
Loading/Unloading times from ships is what I have read in the international report that Maersk produced would be my guess. Not really a case of being privy as to doing research.
They also mentioned the fact that PoA doesn't have the capacity to continue to be such an important international port. Hence the concept of moving/expanding it into the harbor.
Perhaps I am assuming too much of the unions that that help create new work as well as defend the old stuff.

Who moved the cheese? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Moved_My_Cheese%3F)
As I have mentioned earlier in this thread, I still think PoA management have lots to answer for.........but perhaps 2 wrongs don't make a right. Sooner the Unions realize this, the sooner the Port workers will have improved employment (perhaps elsewhere).

[avgas]

Managers. Confidence isn't all it's cracked up to be...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

Never was. You might find this good watching. http://www.blindmanagement.blogspot.co.nz/2012/03/introverts-and-what-good-things-can.html

[avgas]

I don't hate the unions but I sure as hell don't have much time for the organisers who are only to keen to take men out on strike. The organiser plays politics and still gets paid while the wives & kids at home are the ones who really pay the price. The families are the real losers in all this, the fat cat organisers cry crocodile tears.
Gold quote. Yep - and then they will have financial issues, leading to family violence..........sometimes you have a be a big boy and just support you family, suck it up, and work. Rather than pursue selfish pursuits.


Maybe just maybe the wharfies knew what a bloody good racket they were on & sought to protect it.
Nah I am guessing greed. Greed gets the best of most people (myself included). Previous generations were smarter.


Saw POA break Employment law, over and over. Anyone who keeps criminals on in a Strategic management role needs their heads read.
No argument from me. PoA management are just as much to blame in this scenario as the unions as far as I am concerned. Perhaps more when you consider the fact if they really wanted to do this properly they should have fired all non-compliant staff from day 1.
In fact when I consider the fact that the port should be under full operation right now I would put the full blame on the management. It was clear the union staff were not going to accept the new terms - they should have got the sack like anyone else in NZ. What makes them so special?
Would have created the same amount of legal BS as we have now......but the port would be under operation. Rather than the chest beating we have now.

[Winston001]

Should we not be adopting the policies of countries at the top of Standard of Living index?



Well I honestly don't know. The data is all over the place. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita

The list is topped by small nations with oil, small nations with no obvious resources, followed by bigger countries. Its difficult to determine any one factor which makes one nation more successful than another.

For example Finland ranks well above NZ. A cold remote country with reindeer, millions of trees, and snow. Sweden much the same and ranked even higher. Gods preserve us, how the heck can that be?

Above both of those icons stands the USA - the bastion of free-enterprise and strongly against organised labour. On a purely logical basis that is the example to follow. Not that I would - but it answers your question.

[mashman]

For example Finland ranks well above NZ. A cold remote country with reindeer, millions of trees, and snow. Sweden much the same and ranked even higher. Gods preserve us, how the heck can that be?

Nokia and Volvo?

[trustme]

We were getting well looked after during extreme economic difficulties.
Now we are on a roll with record export receipts, greater tax take etc.etc. and we are going down the tubes flat out.


Typical Tory behaviour though isn't it?
Wacking each others dicks in a drawer.
Repeating failed policy programs, expecting a different outcome.

Labour avoided the real fallout of the economic difficulties, sure they hatched up the bank guarantee scheme. It was legislation on the hoof that meant the likes of Sth Canterbury finance had to be bailed out by the govt, I don't blame them for it , stuck in the headlights they reacted with immediate legislation that with time for more consideration would not have passed muster, desperate times mean desperate measures & all that.
My understanding is that the tax take is way down. In terms of NZ inc , Labour locked in a bunch of overheads like interest free student loans & working for families, Tax take falls & suddenly there is a huge deficit so those costs are no longer sustainable in the long term
Labour looked after us real well in the short term but hung us out to dry with the onset of a global downturn that was entirely forseeable
National under Muldoon did exactly the same.
In both instances it was not a political philosophy but a wish to retain power at all costs that was the real problem.

[Winston001]

Nokia and Volvo?

Yes I'd have said so too but apparently not any longer:

Volvo is still profitable but has no share price growth over 6 years.

Nokia - Nokia is a basketcase. Share price 4 years ago was $40 - today it is $5.30 (NYSE).

Saab went bankrupt in December 2011.


Even so, both Finland and Sweden have strong economies with damned-all valuable resources. They are very similar nations to NZ but we have a better climate, vast fishing grounds, strong year round tourism, and millions of hectares of temperate fertile farmland. On paper we are a better prospect.

Why the big (and it is big) difference?

[pete376403]

who would ever want to try & run POA afterwards. The downside of interfering may very well outweigh the upside.
I am not be in total agreement with the POA attitude, they certainly seem intent on picking a fight, I suspect they will have some pretty high powered employment lawyers advising them. I would expect them to have their ducks in a row but stranger things have happened.

this is who would want to run POA (see- S.P.Mans post #17) - " The POAL chairman was previously a manager for Hutchison Port Holdings Group - a private company that is extending it's "assets" in the Asia/Pacific area. He was appointed by Rodney Hide when he was setting up the Greater Auckland City to privatise it's assets!
What's one way of getting a cheap port - run it into the ground and then buy it cheap to get it off Auckland Cities hands. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutchison_Port_Holdings

[mashman]

Why the big (and it is big) difference?

The revenue v's expenditure is positive, ours isn't by several billion. They have lower inflation. They sit relatively close to billions of customers... and several other factors I guess... is it enough?

Finland +$5.67 billion
Revenue: $66.58 billion
Expenditure: $65.33 billion
Imports: $69.11 billion
Exports: $73.53 billion
Inflation: 1.2%

Sweden +$20.2 billion
Revenue: $293 billion
Expenditure: $289.6 billion
Imports: $187.4 billion
Exports: $204.2 billion
Inflation: 2.5%

New Zealand -$5.06
Revenue: $46.54 billion
Expenditure: $53.56 billion
Imports: $24.29 billion
Exports: $26.25 billion
Inflation: 4.3%

[Hinny]

Well I honestly don't know. The data is all over the place. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

The list is topped by small nations with oil, small nations with no obvious resources, followed by bigger countries. Its difficult to determine any one factor which makes one nation more successful than another.

For example Finland ranks well above NZ. A cold remote country with reindeer, millions of trees, and snow. Sweden much the same and ranked even higher. Gods preserve us, how the heck can that be?

Above both of those icons stands the USA - the bastion of free-enterprise and strongly against organised labour. On a purely logical basis that is the example to follow. Not that I would - but it answers your question.

I was talking about Standard of Living Index.
GDP is only one component in a comprehensive equation covering all sorts of activity.

The Scandinavian countries always do very well.
The US never makes the top 10.
Canada is often near or at the top.

.....and you quote GDP figures.
A common mistake of Right Wing voters who believe the more money you have the better off you will be.

[Hinny]

My understanding is that the tax take is way down.

Bill English - defending the tax cuts - told Parliament that the tax take was up.
I was watching Parliament TV.

[Swoop]

Love the Tui billboard on the NW motorway at the moment.:Punk:

[oneofsix]

Love the Tui billboard on the NW motorway at the moment.:Punk:

how about a little hint for those of us not cursed to live on the NW motorway

[Swoop]

how about a little hint for those of us not cursed to live on the NW motorway

Dear Len,
You look good on the fence.
The Wharfies.

[avgas]

Dear Len,
You look good on the fence.
The Wharfies.

Yeah I saw that yesterday. Had a little giggle.

[Bassmatt]

Bill English - defending the tax cuts - told Parliament that the tax take was up.
I was watching Parliament TV.

He lied then. Its down (from memory) 4.1% over half of which Treasury says is due to the tax cuts

[Hinny]

He lied then. Its down (from memory) 4.1% over half of which Treasury says is due to the tax cuts

That's what the opposition said.
Are you saying giving tax cuts does not lead to an increase in tax revenue?
Who'd have thought?

[Winston001]

.....and you quote GDP figures.
A common mistake of Right Wing voters who believe the more money you have the better off you will be.

Agreed but what else can we objectively use?

Here's what Paul Krugman (Nobel leftish economist) says:


"I don’t see an easy way to develop a better measure than GDP – but not because GDP measures everything important. It doesn’t, and it’s crucial to understand that. But if you try to add in other things, the question is what weight you place on them – which is a matter of taste, not science. GDP is good for what it is, a measure of marketable output; the thing is to always keep in mind that health, inequality, peace, and so on are also important, but not measurable in GDP."

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/06/krugman-responds-readers-questions/#gdp

[Ocean1]

Agreed but what else can we objectively use?

Your original link didn’t reference GDP, it was corrected for purchasing parity. Believe it's reasonably widely accepted as international financial lingua franca. Having said that I noticed NZ scored 5 places different over three separate institutional analysis. Probably depends on what value they placed on marmite.

[avgas]

Your original link didn’t reference GDP, it was corrected for purchasing parity. Believe it's reasonably widely accepted as international financial lingua franca. Having said that I noticed NZ scored 5 places different over three separate institutional analysis. Probably depends on what value they placed on marmite.
I was thinking more common sense. But even that is starting to get in shortage here.
Perhaps the common sense part of the brain was replaced with Marmite.
Real chicken/egg scenario.

[ellipsis]

...whilst you all prevaricate so,they have brain-washed your wife and they're stealin' your children too...:shutup:

[Grumph]

Ironic that transportation to Australia as a result of government action is no longer the punishment it once was.....

i wonder how many transplanted Kiwis voted in Queensland ?

[Hinny]

Your original link didn’t reference GDP, it was corrected for purchasing parity. Believe it's reasonably widely accepted as international financial lingua franca.

Heading of original link.

List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita

:facepalm:

[Hinny]

Agreed but what else can we objectively use?

Here's what Paul Krugman (Nobel leftish economist) says:


"I don’t see an easy way to develop a better measure than GDP – but not because GDP measures everything important. It doesn’t, and it’s crucial to understand that. But if you try to add in other things, the question is what weight you place on them – which is a matter of taste, not science. GDP is good for what it is, a measure of marketable output; the thing is to always keep in mind that health, inequality, peace, and so on are also important, but not measurable in GDP."

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/06/krugman-responds-readers-questions/#gdp


'GDP is good for what it is, a measure of marketable output'

Not much good for measuring standard of living.
Not much use having bucket loads of cash if the rest of your society is falling to pieces.

Think:
Too dangerous to walk down the street.
Non-democratic form of government.
Poor health system.
Poor education system.
Lack of personal freedom.

This is America.

Gang bangers.
Not a democracy.
Sick, fat,
dumb fucks.
Most incarcerated society on earth. (I believe we are second)

I think the OECD Standard of Living index is more generally accepted as a measure to take notice of.

[Winston001]

I think the OECD Standard of Living index is more generally accepted as a measure to take notice of.

Ok but if Krugman with his Nobel (and seen as a commie by Republicans) says GDP is the best measure we currently have, his expert opinion carries great weight.

Personally I find "happiness" indexes interesting and valuable. Not because they suggest the best places to live but for what we can learn from "happy" societies. There is a recent study which collates such surveys into an overview - must try and find it.

Anyway I think NZ rated well. Denmark was near the top. There were communities like San Luis Obispo in California which rated highly, not just nations.

[Hinny]

Ok but if Krugman with his Nobel (and seen as a commie by Republicans) says GDP is the best measure we currently have, his expert opinion carries great weight.

C'mon Winstone.
You can't just go around saying stuff like that.
Perhaps you should reread what he did in fact say.
Remember - time to dispel illusion, not create it.
It is obvious that GDP is not a suitable measure and I believe you would find upon reading the formula for the OECD measure that the components of that formula make perfect sense.

Getting back on topic, it is evident that plenty of the people posting on here are creating illusion by misinterpreting available information or simply letting their imagination run wild.

[Bassmatt]

That's what the opposition said.
Are you saying giving tax cuts does not lead to an increase in tax revenue?
Who'd have thought?

Clearly not this Govt.

[avgas]

Hate to state the obvious - but what about the countries not in the OECD?
May skew the results a bit.

[Winston001]

It is obvious that GDP is not a suitable measure and I believe you would find upon reading the formula for the OECD measure that the components of that formula make perfect sense.



Mmm...don't get me wrong, I tend to agree with you.

But...but...measures of well-being, happiness, or standards of living contain subjective elements which don't translate across differing societies. So as Krugman says it becomes a matter of taste not science. Economists are agreed that GDP gives a standardised snap-shot of the strength of an economy. The stronger economies have better food, healthcare, education etc etc.

Ok lets put that aside for a moment: one of my hobby-horses is how fortunate we are in NZ and I've said that on KB for years. Neverthless talkback radio, tabloid television, and the internet are full of people whinging about how bad/unfair life is in this country. Clearly they are unhappy.

The happiest people I have ever met were the Sudanese and they've got nothing. Sod all. Not a sausage. Also ordinary people in India and Turkey impressed for their brightness amidst abject poverty. Frankly Kiwis could learn a lot from these other cultures.

[Hinny]

Which gets back to my story of little Johnny answering the teachers question "What do you want to be when you grow up"
He replied "Happy".
The teacher thought he didn't understand the question.
Johnny thought the teacher didn't understand life.

Bhutan has a focus on GNH - Gross National Happiness, as a measure of success.
This seems far better as a goal of a nation than a focus on increasing GDP.
That ultimately leads to unfulfilled goals and aspirations and it leads to unhappiness and degradation of the planet and of society.
It threatens the well being and happiness of those involved in the POA dispute.
It threatens the very existence of the world.

[Winston001]

Bhutan has a focus on GNH - Gross National Happiness, as a measure of success.
This seems far better as a goal of a nation than a focus on increasing GDP.


With respect, you are assuming increased GDP = increased use of resources. Instead it means growing economic activity and that can come from high value work. For example Microsoft has made a huge contribution to Washington state with only a few buildings and lots of brain power.

FWIW it bothers me that consumption and growth are the objectives of governments around the world. We have reached the point where there aren't a lot of unused raw materials left.

[avgas]

Bhutan has a focus on GNH - Gross National Happiness, as a measure of success.
This seems far better as a goal of a nation than a focus on increasing GDP.
That ultimately leads to unfulfilled goals and aspirations and it leads to unhappiness and degradation of the planet and of society.
It threatens the well being and happiness of those involved in the POA dispute.
It threatens the very existence of the world.
I completely agree. We should focus on happiness.

But raises the question - Were the PoA workers unhappy? Or did the Union tell them they were?
Clearly there are some non-union workers that are more than happy to do the same job.
Nothing is stopping the PoA workers quiting to find another job that could give them said happiness.