Noise testing of race bikes - what's the answer? [Archive]

codgyoleracer

21st March 2012, 10:17

This has been a popular and subjective subject recently - and is one thats not going to disapear or be swept under the carpet anytime soon:

The rulebook is quite clear - however as many have commented at the track what are the parameters of the testing, the testing device / techniques and how do these affect the readings.

The tricky thing with noise - is that what the human ears "hears" is not always what the meter "reads"........

There has been a suggestion in another thread that static testing might be the go, - however the reality is that if an event is under-way and the local councils respond to a complaint, they will test the bikes ON TRACK. One bonus though of some sort of voluntary static test , is that it may well give us a guideline as to how close the bike is to the maximum limit.

Do we have any specialist acoustic people on KB that may be able to assist ?

Deano

21st March 2012, 10:33

This has been a popular and subjective subject recently - and is one thats not going to dissapera or be swept under the carpet anytime soon:

The rulebook is quite clear - however as many have commented at the track what are the parameters of the testing, the testing device / techniques and how do these affect the readings.

The tricky thing with noise - is that what the human ears "hears" is not always what the meter "reads"........

There has been a suggestion in another thread that static testing might be the go, - however the reality is that if an event is under-way and the local councils respond to a complaint, they will test the bikes ON TRACK. One bonus though of some sort of voluntary static test , is that it may well give us a guideline as to how lcose the bike is to the maximum limit.

Do we have any specialist acoustic people on KB that may be able to assist ? hi glen, I am not a specialist in acoustics but have some knowledge, particularly from the testing side of things as I work for a council. One aspect of my job includes noise monitoring for compliance with district plans and new zealand standards. - also have some theoretical knowledge that may be of use. Having thought briefly about this topic since hd, (and in my morphine induced state) I wonder how the testing was undertaken, such as to what standard, location, consideration of background noise levels among other things. It seems odd that so many were reportedly over the relevant limits when I don't believe it was such an issue at the first three rounds despite testing ocurring.I would certainly be keen to learn of all the relevant facts (not simply kb speculation) and discuss further, not only for my own interest but also to assist racers in complying in the future to avoid further problems.

Billy

21st March 2012, 11:04

hi glen, I am not a specialist in acoustics but have some knowledge, particularly from the testing side of things as I work for a council. One aspect of my job includes noise monitoring for compliance with district plans and new zealand standards. - also have some theoretical knowledge that may be of use. Having thought briefly about this topic since hd, (and in my morphine induced state) I wonder how the testing was undertaken, such as to what standard, location, consideration of background noise levels among other things. It seems odd that so many were reportedly over the relevant limits when I don't believe it was such an issue at the first three rounds despite testing ocurring.I would certainly be keen to learn of all the relevant facts (not simply kb speculation) and discuss further, not only for my own interest but also to assist racers in complying in the future to avoid further problems.

I would be very keen to talk to you on this subject Deano,How can I contact you.

White trash

21st March 2012, 11:06

I would be very keen to talk to you on this subject Deano,How can I contact you.

Call Waikato Hospital would be your best bet Billy.

Deano

21st March 2012, 11:15

Call Waikato Hospital would be your best bet Billy.
Yeah I'll be here for a few more days yet and to be honest, my brain is a bit fuzzy at the moment what with the cocktail of painkillers I am on. Can you call in to see me in person billy ? I will get your number and call you soon.

White trash

21st March 2012, 11:23

If noise is tested on the front straight, you'll get vastly different readings on the same bike between Hampton Downs and other tracks due to the built up "valley" nature of that straight.

malcy25

21st March 2012, 11:26

Sure is a hard subject and one I know little or nothing about the technical aspect of it, but I can understand there are a huge range of influences to what reading will be recorded.

I guess it is one that some of us (ie the wider racing community) will get to know very well, fast....Hower, the bureacratic world this leads into is another whole realm again...

I know one of the families bikes is super aggressive while warming it up (like a certain fail on static test), but ride by is no issues...

I saw one recent comment offshore which alluded to the fact that to ensure bikes complied with noise limits it would be expected that the riders should be looking at areas that produced noise in addition to the exhaust (chain and intake are two areas)

Kiwi Graham

21st March 2012, 11:28

Good thread topic Glen and thanks for your call last night Deano (oh and wish you a quick recovery mate). Glen is right this issue isnt going to go away, its only going to get more stringent.

Good on you Deano for offering to help Billy, we need to be seen to be doing right by the noise issue and being pro-active is the way to go.
Ask any engine tuner and they will tell you that you dont need noise to make power, in saying that though how bloody loud are the works GP bikes!!

Stamped on the frames of all NZ legit imported bikes will be a DBa reading and nearly all exceed the 95 DBa cut off, I believe this reading is taken statically at a fixed rev limit and often why production bikes have a 'hole' in power curve at this pre-determined rev limit allowing them to gain compliance.
You would think this test would pick up alot of mechanical engine noise.

On the track the main cause of the noise breach appears to come from the exhaust note and this is the obvious area to look at first. I believe several bike got under the limit at the classic festival with modifications to their exhausts so it is achievable.

Paul in NZ

21st March 2012, 12:07

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KdYUhH3JSo

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31978L1015:en:NOT

http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/doc/2006/wp29grb/07-R41WG-06e.pdf

nodrog

21st March 2012, 12:37

http://www.fim-live.com/fileadmin/alfresco/6510004_Anglais.pdf

107db limit, with a 3db tolerance after the race.

"Noise test must take place in a clear area adjacent to the Technical control at least
5 metres from any possible noise reflecting obstruction."

page 137 has more technical shit on how they measure, i cant be arsed typing it all out.

steveyb

21st March 2012, 12:41

There are acoustics science experts in New Zealand, some of whom are at Industrial Research Ltd in Lower Hutt. The reason I mention this is that the government has a programme whereby entities (businesses, individuals, etc) who have a technical problem can seek funding to engage an expert to help with their problem.

I can see that this issue would be well served by having expert input into the technicalities, the difficulties and the establishment of a best practice technique for testing.

Now, it might also be reinventing the wheel, and indeed we may well already be practicing best practice.

It might be the case that different environments are going to produce different results for the same individual with regard to a standard testing approach, it would not be the first time that has happened.

The decibel can be a rather troublesome unit to pin down because it is not absolute, it is relative and is not a measure of sound or noise, but a unit of power, or in the case of sound, of intensity and is also used in electronics. The dB also has a logarithmic scale, therefore each increase in 1 dB makes the intesity 10 times higher. The dB scale is set up relative to least intense sound a human ear can hear, apparently the sound of a mosquito flying at a distance of 3m (20 micropascals (μPa) = 2×10−5 Pa) where one Pascal is equal to 94 dB(SPL).

So, if MNZ wishes to investigate this further to see if we are indeed already in best practice, or if there is room for improvement, I would be happy to help out as I do know some of the acoustics guys at IRL.

Billy, if you want to discuss, we can catch up at Taupo.

Steve

Deano

21st March 2012, 13:02

I have a contact at massey university in wgtn. He was my lecturer and someone I also went to for advice once commencing work. Professor philip dickinson. He is a leading authority on environmental acoustics and is semi retired. His hourly rate was a tad over one third of the fee of others I know.

Billy

21st March 2012, 13:09

Call Waikato Hospital would be your best bet Billy.

Thanks,

Deano has been in touch and we will talk more when the drugs wear off (His not mine haha!)

CHOPPA

21st March 2012, 14:02

quickbuck

21st March 2012, 14:07

... apparently the sound of a mosquito flying at a distance of 3m (20 micropascals (μPa) = 2×10−5 Pa) where one Pascal is equal to 94 dB(SPL).

Now that would be Fly Past I would Love to see....

Oh, you mean the insect... As you were.

quickbuck

21st March 2012, 14:18

The measuring of sound, sounds like a very complex science. It doesnt seem like the sort of thing an unqualified person can just stand on the side of a race track when 20 bikes are whizzing around, generators and PA systems are buzzing away then say oh that bike is going to be black flagged.

I cant imagine any appeal court would hold up a judgement to exclude any rider but if they were black flagged mid race then that could really cause an upset.....

Exactly Choppa.
This is why Billy and co are really keen to get it sorted.

Would hate the whole thing to wreck our sport.

Funny thing is at Wanganui Sam Croft's exhaust got a little open on his Ninja 250R.
He was worried that it was too loud. I said it didn't actually sound out of place in F3.
He didn't want to get pinged though..... But in reality he didn't actually need to quieten it down.

The thing is that 28 HP doesn't make a lot of noise anyway, and as illuded to, noise can come from anywhere, like induction and chain..... This adds to the total noise produced (Yes, along with the sound system, generators, crowd, other bikes, and echos from concrete walls).

As an aside, the noisest place to stand on a jet aircraft is actually beside the intake, not the "Exhaust"...

So, it is really in our best interests to get the issue sorted, otherwise to enjoy motorcycle racing the ProLite field will be huge (may be)... I love competition, but not that much ;-)
I also love to watch the Super Bikes....

PS. Heal up well Deano.

Paul in NZ

21st March 2012, 14:29

Paul in NZ

21st March 2012, 14:35

The thing is that 28 HP doesn't make a lot of noise anyway

I don't agree - the loudest bike I ever had was a muffled (well it was muffle shaped) BSA B44VS that made 28 bhp on a good day but it made you blink with pain every time it fired.

noise can come from anywhere, like induction and chain.....

Totally agree - my Guzzi came stock with velocity stacks and the induction roar was really loud. When they were developing the anular discharge mufflers for the Norton 850 they found putting in an airbox made a huge difference.

PS. Heal up well Deano.

I think we all agree on that ;-)

CHOPPA

21st March 2012, 15:08

The problem is an unqualified kill joy or neighbour will say 'Oh thats too loud' and call the council who will seand out a semi qualified noise control dude with limited gear who is going to find it really hard to replicate an official noise test on the fly....

Ultimately if HE (or she) says its too loud its too loud.

Sigh....

The thing about council by laws and noise control is that it is all measured at the perimeter of the property its only the MNZ rule that measures our bikes from 30m.

Personally I dont like noisy bikes and we are taking measures to quieten the bike down as we did at HDs. I still believe the testing procedure needs to be more accurate.

Biggles08

21st March 2012, 15:43

Personally I dont like noisy bikes ....

Hahahahaaaaa:rofl:........oh....you were being serious?!:blink:

Burrt Badger

21st March 2012, 15:47

p.dath

21st March 2012, 16:25

I have no special knowledge on this subject. I also don't participate in racing. So this is more of a rambling by someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.

The biggest problem that I see is the uncertainty. Events run the risk of being shutdown because they can not be confident of complying before they start. Riders run the risk of being "kicked off" the track for excessive noise.

Before every event there is always a machine inspection. I wonder if the local councils might agree to perhaps having a more specific noise test done at that stage - like a WOF test. Your bike then either passes, or it doesn't. And being at machine inspection stage, you then have a chance to do something before racing starts.
My thinking is that you then know if you make it onto the start line that there is no risk of either the event being shutdown, or of being black flagged for excessive noise and pulled off the track.

Perhaps the test could be something like the noise at 1m must be below 105dB at 75% of the bikes red line. Don't know. Just wishing there would be more certainity for everyone.

Biggles08

21st March 2012, 16:26

Biggles.

Can you name one permanent motorsport venue that has received a dispensation for noise. I can name many that haven't. Levels, Teretonga, Manfeild, Bay Park, Pukekohe, Western Springs etc etc.
Nope I can't...but thats why the question was asked, how do the drags get around it? How can the Formula 5000's race a couple of weekes earlier on the same track (Hampton Downs) and get away with it?

gixerracer

21st March 2012, 16:39

Nope I can't...but thats why the question was asked, how do the drags get around it? How can the Formula 5000's race a couple of weekes earlier on the same track (Hampton Downs) and get away with it?

If the council dont turn up with a complaint then there aint no problem. People like creating things to do sometimes, or so say us premadonas:love:

p.dath

21st March 2012, 16:58

If the council dont turn up with a complaint then there aint no problem. People like creating things to do sometimes, or so say us premadonas:love:

That's the answer! If the council only employs, say, 2 noise testing officers - then make sure to make 10 complaints about addresses all over town before the event. Make sure at least one of the addresses is a large gang. :)

SPman

21st March 2012, 17:47

Do we have any specialist acoustic people on KB that may be able to assist ?Coldkiwi is such a person - unfortunately he's not often on here these days

Billy

21st March 2012, 18:01

If the council dont turn up with a complaint then there aint no problem. People like creating things to do sometimes, or so say us premadonas:love:

Read the rulebook lately Einstein,Try rule 10.6.3.1

gixerracer

21st March 2012, 18:30

Read the rulebook lately Einstein,Try rule 10.6.3.1

Shut up dick face I dont care about no stupid rule book you should no that rules are made to be broken

AllanB

21st March 2012, 19:45

budda

21st March 2012, 20:21

Nope I can't...but thats why the question was asked, how do the drags get around it? How can the Formula 5000's race a couple of weekes earlier on the same track (Hampton Downs) and get away with it?

The F5000's run a top-hat type cover over the stacks to deflect the sound .... the more astute among you will note I said SOUND - there is a difference between what we perceive as mechanical music, and what the trendy life-styler calls anti-social noise.

The days of "noise equals horsepower" are long gone, and NOT by MNZ's doing. For example, the limit for Speedway tracks is also 95db, and some of those suckers are churning out 700HP, and regularly test at around 92-93Db ....... as did a couple of the Supers.

This isnt about being punitive, its about futureproofing our Sport ....... as has been pointed out, each decibel increase is not an increase by a factor of one, its a lot more than that. All thats needed in the immediate future is for a bit of muffler repacking.

budda

21st March 2012, 20:29

Stupid F-in rules - they are race bikes - they are meant to be loud.

Having said that a old banger with a open cone pipe makes a shit of a lot of noise! It is very surprising how much a small reverse cone shuts it up.

Theres a whole lot of science in effectively muffling the internal combustion engine without losing too much power / torque ...... havent looked at the current FIM rules, but the old ones used to stipulate the factoring-in of considerations like conrod length etc.

This goes some way to explaining why there is such a difference in sound between engines of roughly similar specs - a TT500 on a straight pipe doesnt sound anything like a Manx Norton. Listen to the 125's - some have that beautiful "crack" to them, some sound like a farmbike with a rusted out header pipe ....... but they're all the same size and roughly similar state of tune(ish)

If we all just take some personal responsibility for our OWN bikes noise, this problem is very nearly dealt to ... the only guy to get sent home for excess noise will be that OTHER guy, who clearly doesnt give a shit about his access to race tracks

codgyoleracer

21st March 2012, 21:06

The F5000's run a top-hat type cover over the stacks to deflect the sound .... the more astute among you will note I said SOUND - there is a difference between what we perceive as mechanical music, and what the trendy life-styler calls anti-social noise.

The days of "noise equals horsepower" are long gone, and NOT by MNZ's doing. For example, the limit for Speedway tracks is also 95db, and some of those suckers are churning out 700HP, and regularly test at around 92-93Db ....... as did a couple of the Supers.

This isnt about being punitive, its about futureproofing our Sport ....... as has been pointed out, each decibel increase is not an increase by a factor of one, its a lot more than that. All thats needed in the immediate future is for a bit of muffler repacking.

Now now now, stop making sense. This is KB here where we need inuendo and controversy, - how dare you post something reseembling the truth of the matter...... :-)

We have the answer already, when the council nerd turns up the Sherriff is gonna punch him in the nose and send him packing, problem solved ..........

In the future engines will rev ever higher and higher, so the problem indeed is not going away in a hurry, in fact if i had to place my hard earned money on the future of noise control - i would say that 95db is as high as it will ever go - with a strong likelhood that it will be reduced further over time (particularily if the 95db limit is disregarded willy-nilly)

budda

21st March 2012, 21:35

Now now now, stop making sense. This is KB here where we need inuendo and controversy, - how dare you post something reseembling the truth of the matter...... :-)

We have the answer already, when the council nerd turns up the Sherriff is gonna punch him in the nose and send him packing, problem solved ..........

In the future engines will rev ever higher and higher, so the problem indeed is not going away in a hurry, in fact if i had to place my hard earned money on the future of noise control - i would say that 95db is as high as it will ever go - with a strong likelhood that it will be reduced further over time (particularily if the 95db limit is disregarded willy-nilly)

now LOOK ..... if we carry on all this agreeing with each other, your reputation is shit mate ! I'm of the opinion that there are two main reasons the Supers had the majority of the noise issues at HD - 1/ the cloud cover came in and effectively put a lid on the big pot that is HD, so the sound couldnt get OUT, and 2/ I reckon there might just be an issue with some of the ignition-cut shifters being used in this class - when they cut back in, there's a pretty loud "bang" for a nano-second, but obviously long enough to spike the readings.

But it has to be said, for so many to be that far over so quickly, they must have been perilously close to the limit already. Its just not possible to compare readings from other tracks, it is the "on the day" reading that matters, and, as we've now seen, these readings CAN AND DO change throughout the day. For the cost of half a dozen rivets and some packing, I'd prefer to safeguard my ability to ride at purpose-built racetracks thanks

Biggles08

21st March 2012, 21:51

now LOOK ..... if we carry on all this agreeing with each other, your reputation is shit mate ! I'm of the opinion that there are two main reasons the Supers had the majority of the noise issues at HD - 1/ the cloud cover came in and effectively put a lid on the big pot that is HD, so the sound couldnt get OUT, and 2/ I reckon there might just be an issue with some of the ignition-cut shifters being used in this class - when they cut back in, there's a pretty loud "bang" for a nano-second, but obviously long enough to spike the readings.

But it has to be said, for so many to be that far over so quickly, they must have been perilously close to the limit already. Its just not possible to compare readings from other tracks, it is the "on the day" reading that matters, and, as we've now seen, these readings CAN AND DO change throughout the day. For the cost of half a dozen rivets and some packing, I'd prefer to safeguard my ability to ride at purpose-built racetracks thanks

My exhaust is a brand new Two Brothers full system so the packing is as tight as it will get. It still smells new due to the packing burning in. On the Saturday (overcast and cloudy) I was told my bike read 103Db!?!? On the Sunday we did our own noise tests on the side of the track also with a correct, calibrated Db indicator and we were sitting on between 94 and 95Db. I was told that in fact when the Yamaha's went past the Db reader spiked at 98Db yet they definitely sounded quieter than my bike. Goes to show the 'it sounds a lot louder' argument doesn't really mean shit when it comes to the actual Db reading.

I stick to the original point, why is it we are getting pinged for being too noisy (I know its in the rules etc but not the point here) when in fact we are by comparison to other motorsports not close to the same Db levels. I think it is a reasonable question that no one seems to be able to answer (appart from it is the rules). Do these other motorsport disciplines have the same limit of 95Db? If so, why are they continuously allowed to run meetings (ie drags)?

budda

21st March 2012, 21:59

My exhaust is a brand new Two Brothers full system so the packing is as tight as it will get. It still smells new due to the packing burning in. On the Saturday (overcast and cloudy) I was told my bike read 103Db!?!? On the Sunday we did our own noise tests on the side of the track also with a correct, calibrated Db indicator and we were sitting on between 94 and 95Db. I was told that in fact when the Yamaha's went past the Db reader spiked at 98Db yet they definitely sounded quieter than my bike. Goes to show the 'it sounds a lot louder' argument doesn't really mean shit when it comes to the actual Db reading.

I stick to the original point, why is it we are getting pinged for being too noisy (I know its in the rules etc but not the point here) when in fact we are by comparison to other motorsports not close to the same Db levels. I think it is a reasonable question that no one seems to be able to answer (appart from it is the rules). Do these other motorsport disciplines have the same limit of 95Db? If so, why are they continuously allowed to run meetings (ie drags)?

You're missing the Point young man ...... it is the OFFICIAL meter, in the OFFICIAL place, in the OFFICIAL test manner that makes the OFFICIAL reading. Your bike was head and shoulders loudest machine at HD either day, by ear and by meter.

The reality is, you are being asked to do what you agreed to when when you entered, and stick to OUR rules ...... if we all take some ownership of the problem, we ALL stave off the attentions of the Noise Nazis for as long as we can. What other Organisations may or may not get away with makes exactly no difference to us in OUR battles with the nay-sayers - still, you could always take up Drag Racing, if noise is what does it for you.

Oh, and TIGHT muffler packing has very little sound absorption qualities ....... firm but not tight is the way to go - like most good things in life

Deano

21st March 2012, 22:05

Council nerd ?

Noise nazis ?

Lol

Nasty !!

Biggles08

21st March 2012, 22:47

You're missing the Point young man ...... it is the OFFICIAL meter, in the OFFICIAL place, in the OFFICIAL test manner that makes the OFFICIAL reading. Your bike was head and shoulders loudest machine at HD either day, by ear and by meter.

The reality is, you are being asked to do what you agreed to when when you entered, and stick to OUR rules ...... if we all take some ownership of the problem, we ALL stave off the attentions of the Noise Nazis for as long as we can. What other Organisations may or may not get away with makes exactly no difference to us in OUR battles with the nay-sayers - still, you could always take up Drag Racing, if noise is what does it for you.

Oh, and TIGHT muffler packing has very little sound absorption qualities ....... firm but not tight is the way to go - like most good things in life
Lol...no budda, you're missing MY point...I know all you have said re the rules is correct and I do not debate that (I would debate the fact my bike was the loudest there however), my question is are the other organizations as you say "getting away with it" or do they have different rules?

Tony.OK

21st March 2012, 23:30

ellipsis

22nd March 2012, 00:24

are the other organizations as you say "getting away with it" or do they have different rules?

...it's just politics...a F5000 event would generate lots of money, easily overlooked by the powers that be..but they have to be seen to be doing something...I bet any db restrictions would be non existent if we could score an F1 GP on our fair shores...it is a fairly dubious system at best that we have to adhere to...my bucket and a B50 not allowed back out at Levels, not complaining, just puzzled, when you know you are chasing far noisier machines ...but at the end of the day the rules are the rules...

slowpoke

22nd March 2012, 01:49

Nope I can't...but thats why the question was asked, how do the drags get around it? How can the Formula 5000's race a couple of weekes earlier on the same track (Hampton Downs) and get away with it?

It's just part the complexity of the whole noise issue: your 600 does what, 16000rpm? Versus an F5000 car doing about 9000rpm? Huge difference in pitch and how the noise travels, and how it is perceived. I've been to the Lady Wigram meeting with a field of F5000's and they just don't seem that loud, whereas some bikes are farkin' ear piercing.

Seems to me there needs to be some action on both sides of the debate: make sure our own house is in order regarding noisy bikes, and also make sure the tests are done in a fair manner. I don't know where the tests were carried out but there's absolutely no point in having a dBmeter NATA certified if you are going to point it at a bike with a concrete wall, banking and apartment blocks directly behind it. It would be interesting to see the difference in results comparing readings taken on the front straight at HD and another set after turn 1 with it's comparatively wide open spaces.

But ultimately you don't wanna be in the position of having that argument, if you're that close then the issue is gonna rear it's ugly head sooner or later.

Str8 Jacket

22nd March 2012, 06:48

Council nerd ?

Noise nazis ?

Lol

Nasty !!

Just push that morphine button mate!

wayne

22nd March 2012, 07:39

if bike passes at the first three rounds,
no changes between how could if fail,
were the other 3 readings wrong ?
someones having fun , stop them ?

lukemillar

22nd March 2012, 07:40

malcy25

22nd March 2012, 08:38

if bike passes at the first three rounds,
no changes between how could if fail,

Can think of two straight away:
1) cloud level / atmospheric conditions
2) packing is a consumable item. It wears out.

Here's a question. Why do race bikes have to be so loud as to be just within the limit?

codgyoleracer

22nd March 2012, 08:53

That is fair enough, but you have to admit, there has to be some sort of guidelines to test your bike before you rock up on race day or at the very least, static testing at scruiteneering. Otherwise how are you supposed stick to the rules before you do your first session and get told it has failed if the only benchmark is the official meter at the track!?

On some days ALL noise will be louder or quieter due to the surrounding weather /humidity etc. MNZ are good , but to try and out dodge nature, is probably a big call....

Makes sense tho to have.

1) Standardised meter type and brand
2) Standard location established for all tracks (position, distance etc)
3) Basic training of operator or an easy to follow guidline sheet that any muppet can follow
4) 95 is the max, so would suggest a "heads-up" warning at 93 be given to riders that reach that
5) Three passes at 95 or more in a single session and ya gotta get it fixed
6) Continued passing after fixing & still over limit - Welcome to Mr Black flag

Whilst the above guidlines might make 'common sense" they DO NOT fit in with the current rule book + they DO NOT fit in with the sound safetycrats (particularily line 5)

Biggles08

22nd March 2012, 09:01

On some days ALL noise will be louder or quieter due to the surrounding weather /humidity etc. MNZ are good , but to try and out dodge nature, is probably a big call....

Makes sense tho to have.

1) Standardised meter type and brand
2) Standard location established for all tracks (position, distance etc)
3) Basic training of operator or an easy to follow guidline sheet that any muppet can follow
4) 95 is the max, so would suggest a "heads-up" warning at 93 be given to riders that reach that
5) Three passes at 95 or more in a single session and ya gotta get it fixed
6) Continued passing after fixing & still over limit - Welcome to Mr Black flag

Whilst the above guidlines might make 'common sense" they DO NOT fit in with the current rule book + they DO NOT fit in with the sound safetycrats (particularily line 5)

Ahhh see there it is...that phrase "Common sense!" I would also suggest maybe a scale to cater for weather conditions/humidity etc also as this obviously has a massive effect on the reading you will get on any given day. It needs to be a wholistic approach rather than a black and white...then black flag situation.

Deano

22nd March 2012, 11:46

There is generally accepted up to 1dBA error for operator, 1dBA error for instrument and 1dBA error for environmental (meterological conditions). Background noise within 10dBA of the source noise level will affect measured levels of the source noise level up to 3dBA. Reflective surfaces (generally within 3m of the recveiver) will affect measured levels by up to 3dBA. Your average person will not detect a 1 or possibly 2dBA difference. 10dBA difference is perceived by people as a doubling of the noise. Also must use the correct descriptor (Lmax, Ln, Leq, SEL) and correct speed and weighting.
Low frequency noise also has more power than high frequencies, but may seem quieter as 'softer'.
There is a lot to consider in order to get accurate and repeatable results.

nzmikey

22nd March 2012, 12:48

CHOPPA

22nd March 2012, 12:58

I was working down at HD in the weekend for the Nationals & I believe that they were testing around Flag Point3 , 30m from the centre of track, dont quote me but I am sure that there were no major over limit readings ..... ( due to the fact that the retards were not there (Motards) )

About 2 superbikes were under the 96db rating on Sat.

CHOPPA

22nd March 2012, 13:02

The crazy thing is that some of the guys noise levels were changing by 6 db at any given lap. They were running the same pace the entire session so that doesnt give much confidence to the fact that you try your best to keep noise down but a bit of cloud comes for 1 lap and you get black flagged.

That is the reality. Anything over 98db instant black flag

nzmikey

22nd March 2012, 13:06

About 2 superbikes were under the 96db rating on Sat.

Yeah I was reading another thread & have seen alot of comments on it :shutup:

So for the uneducated ( Myself ) why is the limit at 95db at HD since there is all of about 2 houses ( that i can see ) off the HD site .
& yeah I could hear the drag strip from where I was down at Metal Man clear as a bell go figure :blink:

nodrog

22nd March 2012, 13:07

I was working down at HD in the weekend for the Nationals & I believe that they were testing around Flag Point3 , 30m from the centre of track, dont quote me but I am sure that there were no major over limit readings ..... ( due to the fact that the retards were not there (Motards) )

It probably didnt help that he was standing against the bank, below the 2 or 3 generators that were powering the bouncey castle etc.

Deano

22nd March 2012, 13:19

The problem is an unqualified kill joy or neighbour will say 'Oh thats too loud' and call the council who will seand out a semi qualified noise control dude with limited gear who is going to find it really hard to replicate an official noise test on the fly....

Ultimately if HE (or she) says its too loud its too loud.

Sigh....

No, security guards can only deal with excessive noise, using their ears. It is not appropriate for them to assess and enforce RMA provisions for unreasonable noise - this must be carried out using calibrated and certified sound level equipment. There is a technical and legal difference between excessive and unreasonable noise under the RMA.

CHOPPA

22nd March 2012, 13:21

Yeah I was reading another thread & have seen alot of comments on it :shutup:

So for the uneducated ( Myself ) why is the limit at 95db at HD since there is all of about 2 houses ( that i can see ) off the HD site .
& yeah I could hear the drag strip from where I was down at Metal Man clear as a bell go figure :blink:

The noise wasnt an issue for the track. The track manager was happy.

We have to run to the MNZ rule book though which states 95db

Kiwi Graham

22nd March 2012, 13:22

Below is the rule as it stands;-

10.6.3.1 Noise Emmission Road Racing

All Road Racing Events on Permitted Circuits (Teretonga, Levels, Ruapuna, Manfield, Taupo, Pukekohe, Hampton Downs as of this point) the noise limit is 95dBA.
All machines are to be effectively silenced so as not to exceed 95dBA “ride by”, measured by the official meter mounted 30 meters from the track centre line, at the position on the circuit nominated by the circuit owners/managers. Machines registering readings consistently in excess of this limit will be brought to the attention of the officials for action to be taken as follows:
Exceeding 95dBA but not exceeding 98dBA: On the first offence during the meeting, the rider will be warned that this has occurred and instructed to rectify the meeting, the rider will be warned that this has occurred and instructed to rectify the situation. For the second and subsequent infringements, the machine/rider will be Black Flagged from the practice or race without further warning. If circumstances do not allow the machine to be Black Flagged, the competitor will be excluded from the results of that practice or race.
At all Street Circuits machines must operate as per the conditions (if any) listed in the local Councils resource consent for the event. Should these conditions require special procedures and/or testing at the event, then these must be listed in the Supplementary Regulations.
Effective 1st January 2012
For special demonstration races/displays exemptions may be applied for, local council resource consent forms must be attached.

If as Choppa is saying a 6db variation is possible should we be looking at silencing to 90db to account for this variation!?
Its all very well being able to say "my bike passed the noise test this morning so shouldn't have got black flagged this afternoon" but the council noise tester wont give a shit about what passed this morning, he'll pull the pin on the event based on whats in front of him there and then!

I note in the rules it states special demonstration races, could the Nationals be classed as that? then what about club rounds, the classic festival....what are the chances of getting resource consent for the 6 or so events run each year?

Cat in with the pigeons

Voltaire

22nd March 2012, 13:26

Yeah I was reading another thread & have seen alot of comments on it :shutup:

So for the uneducated ( Myself ) why is the limit at 95db at HD since there is all of about 2 houses ( that i can see ) off the HD site .
& yeah I could hear the drag strip from where I was down at Metal Man clear as a bell go figure :blink:

It was explained at the recent NZCRR events that the noise level was to be across the board built up area or not.They went on to say no point having multiple exhausts for different tracks. They will probably end up with a cert you have to produce for your vehicle.

CHOPPA

22nd March 2012, 13:28

Thing is that councils take noise from the boundary

CHOPPA

22nd March 2012, 13:31

From what I have seen, none of the riders have actually said I want a noisy bike. We have all been keen to make the bikes fit the rules.

The problem here is that we cant actually test this ourselves and if it does get tested, one day its good and the next its not.

This is the problem

Kiwi Graham

22nd March 2012, 13:35

The noise wasnt an issue for the track. The track manager was happy.

We have to run to the MNZ rule book though which states 95db

Yes Hampton Downs were ok with the noise but our rule from our govening body that has give it a number, Pukekohe have a number too as well as other circuits I'm sure and that munber is 95db.

If MNZ raised that number and we were to run at Pukekohe or any other circuits with 95db as the consented noise limit they could loose resource consent to run that or any other motor event. This is what I'm sure the spoilers are trying to achieve that have moved closer to circuits and are banging on council doors.

Simply put if we dont do something about it, you can bet your ass they will.

Only suggestion is to look at in the short term is to silencing the mufflers more, look at how the quick shifter is wired (fuel or ignition circuit) and that will be a bloody good start.

Morcs

22nd March 2012, 14:28

Seems like the solution is to make complaints to the relevant councils any time another motorsport event is on anywhere, then the issue will spread, more people involved to the point of the entire motorsport contingent of New Zealand, then we may see some action.

JustNick

22nd March 2012, 15:05

Yes Hampton Downs were ok with the noise but our rule from our govening body that has give it a number, Pukekohe have a number too as well as other circuits I'm sure and that munber is 95db.

If MNZ raised that number and we were to run at Pukekohe or any other circuits with 95db as the consented noise limit they could loose resource consent to run that or any other motor event. This is what I'm sure the spoilers are trying to achieve that have moved closer to circuits and are banging on council doors.

Simply put if we dont do something about it, you can bet your ass they will.

Only suggestion is to look at in the short term is to silencing the mufflers more, look at how the quick shifter is wired (fuel or ignition circuit) and that will be a bloody good start.

Clarification please:
So the reason for the 95db threshold that has been set by MNZ is to meet the minimum noise limit requirements for all tracks that are used nationwide?

Questions:
With regards to noise level testing. Which body is ultimately responsible for shutting down a track meet if the level is exceeded? MNZ? Track management? Local council?

Does this body have a formally documented noise level test procedure?
Is this test procedure aligned with the MNZ noise level test procedure?

gixerracer

22nd March 2012, 15:52

Clarification please:
So the reason for the 95db threshold that has been set by MNZ is to meet the minimum noise limit requirements for all tracks that are used nationwide?

Questions:
With regards to noise level testing. Which body is ultimately responsible for shutting down a track meet if the level is exceeded? MNZ? Track management? Local council?

Does this body have a formally documented noise level test procedure?
Is this test procedure aligned with the MNZ noise level test procedure?

The council is the only one who can shut it dowm based on noise and they measure it from the boundary.
I suspect the PA system at Hampton Downs would have got the meeting closed had the council turned up;)

gixerracer

22nd March 2012, 15:54

About 2 superbikes were under the 96db rating on Sat.

And that shitbox crout mobile you ride was 132db they said ae:bash:

Chrislost

22nd March 2012, 16:03

malcy25

22nd March 2012, 16:11

http://www.lvvta.org.nz/documents/standards/LVVTA_STD_Exhaust_Noise_Emissions.pdf

So the road limit, of a motorcycle over 125cc, is 100 DB.

What I want to know is why my bike has to be quieter to go on a racetrack, than on the road.

Do we test to the standard below (cut and past from the link)
a distance from the exhaust outlet of 500 mm (+/‐ 10 mm),
except where the vehicle meets the criteria specified in 2.8(7);
and
(ii) an angle of 45 degrees (+/‐ 5 degrees) to the direction of gas flow,
always using the position furthest from the vehicle’s longitudinal
centreline; and
(iii) the same height as the exhaust outlet, however not closer to the
ground than 200 mm.

No. Apples and oranges.

lukemillar

22nd March 2012, 16:21

Only suggestion is to look at in the short term is to silencing the mufflers more, look at how the quick shifter is wired (fuel or ignition circuit) and that will be a bloody good start.

These things are pretty popular in the UK (where they are pretty aggressive policing noise at track and racedays), but I haven't seen them here:

http://www.whitedogbikes.com/ccp51/media/images/product_detail/baff/baffle-1-s.jpg

Sort of thing that would be handy to have as it would really suck to turn up for a meeting, find out you're over the limit and then have to start packing up as you have no means to quieten your bike.

tee

22nd March 2012, 16:56

These things are pretty popular in the UK (where they are pretty aggressive policing noise at track and racedays), but I haven't seen them here:

http://www.whitedogbikes.com/ccp51/media/images/product_detail/baff/baffle-1-s.jpg

Sort of thing that would be handy to have as it would really suck to turn up for a meeting, find out you're over the limit and then have to start packing up as you have no means to quieten your bike.

Tried that exact gadget a couple weeks back at Pukekohe with a bike running a FULL S/S + FULL LENGTH Akra ROAD carbon can (not the shorty)........

And..... Black flag/FAIL, infringement notice - go home thanks

Biggles08

22nd March 2012, 17:01

The speedway boys get a +3dB (or 4??) for backfiring/unburned fuel (measured at the venue boundaries I might add) - surely a quickshifter is the same thing.......... Only Quick shifters that don't cut both ignition AND fueling...mine does both so it won't backfire.

budda

22nd March 2012, 17:02

Tried that exact gadget a couple weeks back at Pukekohe with a bike running a FULL S/S + FULL LENGTH Akra ROAD carbon can (not the shorty)........

The speedway boys get a +3dB (or 4??) for backfiring/unburned fuel (measured at the venue boundaries I might add) - surely a quickshifter is the same thing..........

these baffles have been freely available here, in two different lengths, for the past 15-20 years - ask at your local shop

budda

22nd March 2012, 17:11

Lol...no budda, you're missing MY point...I know all you have said re the rules is correct and I do not debate that (I would debate the fact my bike was the loudest there however), my question is are the other organizations as you say "getting away with it" or do they have different rules?

I understand your thought process here Biggles, the fact is that what other outfits get away with ( OR get done for ) has nothing at all to do with us as a group. Whoever told you this was fair was bullshitting you man.

We, as a group, are bound by the rules in place at the venues we hire to race on - SIMPLE

If we continually go over their limit, we will not be able to race there any more - AGAIN, BASIC SIMPLE FACTS

If we all do what we can re our OWN bikes, the problem is mostly solved - even SIMPLER TO UNDERSTAND

And in the end, if preventing those who cant be arsed quietening their bike down to legal levels from screwing the rest of us over , by stopping them riding at OUR events, so be it ..........

budda

22nd March 2012, 17:19

Biggles08

22nd March 2012, 17:43

I understand your thought process here Biggles, the fact is that what other outfits get away with ( OR get done for ) has nothing at all to do with us as a group. Whoever told you this was fair was bullshitting you man.

We, as a group, are bound by the rules in place at the venues we hire to race on - SIMPLE

If we continually go over their limit, we will not be able to race there any more - AGAIN, BASIC SIMPLE FACTS

If we all do what we can re our OWN bikes, the problem is mostly solved - even SIMPLER TO UNDERSTAND

And in the end, if preventing those who cant be arsed quietening their bike down to legal levels from screwing the rest of us over , by stopping them riding at OUR events, so be it ..........

Yes, yes and yes again....

I agree there needs to be a limit.
I agree this limit needs policing.
I agree those that continue to ignore this should be penalized.....

But...

the way 'our' law stands at the moment is too vague in the way it is policed and serious thought needs to go into how to make this law 'fair' and totally enforceable as 'fair.' I think Billy is on the right track here doing what he is doing, making sure there is science behind the testing method to make sure there is no doubt the readings taken on ANY given track in ANY condition is done so with considerations attached to the result. This way last weekend will never happen again.

Do you understand what I'm saying? I think its SIMPLE and I'm really not trying to be a stuck in the mud. If all the riders felt the results were accurate and fair there would be no debate surrounding this issue I'm positive. No one wants a loud bike persay.

budda

22nd March 2012, 17:53

Yes, yes and yes again....

I agree there needs to be a limit.
I agree this limit needs policing.
I agree those that continue to ignore this should be penalized.....

But...

the way 'our' law stands at the moment is too vague in the way it is policed and serious thought needs to go into how to make this law 'fair' and totally enforceable as 'fair.' I think Billy is on the right track here doing what he is doing, making sure there is science behind the testing method to make sure there is no doubt the readings taken on ANY given track in ANY condition is done so with considerations attached to the result. This way last weekend will never happen again.

Do you understand what I'm saying? I think its SIMPLE and I'm really not trying to be a stuck in the mud. If all the riders felt the results were accurate and fair there would be no debate surrounding this issue I'm positive. No one wants a loud bike persay.

mate, as I've said on another thread here, every single member Club of MNZ received the exact same noise meter at the same time, around 4 years ago if memory serves, complete with very explicit instructions. If you've never seen one til last weekend, take that up with your Club - even better, get INVOLVED with your Club, and help make the needed changes happen

We ALL have no choice in this, tough enforcement of noise levels IS coming whether we like it or not ( and for the record I dont ) - lets just agree that we MUST take some action, and the easiest way is to make sure our own machine is right
...... could have repacked a muffler in the time we've spent pontificating on here, eh?

Robert Taylor

22nd March 2012, 20:29

And that shitbox crout mobile you ride was 132db they said ae:bash:

You spent more time following its exhaust emmissions Craig so its understandable you were more attentive to its noise than had you been ahead of it!

gatch

22nd March 2012, 21:02

Racing with the classic bikes can be an experience. A whole load of 250 and 350cc singles with no silencer whatsoever can really turn your inner ear to mush. This kind of noise is totally unacceptable.

As an aside we got pinged at the classics festival in feb. 97 and 98 dB readings. Chicken wire and pot scrubber baffles were hastily made and implemented. Readings of 94dB straight away, with no noticeable difference in performance. The bikes don't have to be loud to go fast. I'm all for quietening it down a bit, if there is a consistent and fair way to test everyone.

Voltaire

22nd March 2012, 21:23

I was working for a firm commissioning chillers, council ruling was 55 Db at the boundary. The chillers were rated at 55 10 metres Free Field, which as the name suggests is in an open field.
The site was surrounded by buildings and lots of concrete, we struggled to get it under 65DB . As I understand it every 3 db is twice as loud. We had a firm called Noise Control Services do the tests and give a report, spent lots and lots of time lead lagging the compressors and pipework......:facepalm:
Interesting that it was quite weather dependent , low cloud, wind direction, background noise. Testing a vehicle adds in distance, speed, engine revs , background wind noise, operator experience, yet they can just turn up , take a reading and shut the event down.
It would be like trying to keep to a speed limit with no speedo and getting busted for exceeding the speed limit.
My bike had nothing inside the " muffler' apart from a plate with lots of holes drilled in it and its very quiet......mystery.

tee

23rd March 2012, 08:37

I understand your thought process here Biggles, the fact is that what other outfits get away with ( OR get done for ) has nothing at all to do with us as a group. Whoever told you this was fair was bullshitting you man.

We, as a group, are bound by the rules in place at the venues we hire to race on - SIMPLE

If we continually go over their limit, we will not be able to race there any more - AGAIN, BASIC SIMPLE FACTS

If we all do what we can re our OWN bikes, the problem is mostly solved - even SIMPLER TO UNDERSTAND

And in the end, if preventing those who cant be arsed quietening their bike down to legal levels from screwing the rest of us over , by stopping them riding at OUR events, so be it ..........

I hear ya, but.......

The thing that pisses me off is the complete lack of consistency.

Raced exactly the same bike there (Pukey) a couple of months earlier and it was fine (yes, noise people were present as couple of guys got stung)
Race up and down the country - same bike - fine.
I get the warning in the Q1 (last round @ Pukey) - then wedge the gadget in there (ie - make the effort to remedy the issue), ask to go out for a test run to see if its under the dB cut-off.
Get permission, head out and get told it's fine.
Then race 1 comes around.... Black flag, 2nd violation, - see ya.

Where's the consistency?????

I'm not knocking the club - they're a bunch of good pricks (especially that Kiwi Graham chap :nya:)

Deano

23rd March 2012, 09:25

I hear ya, but.......

The thing that pisses me off is the complete lack of consistency.

Raced exactly the same bike there (Pukey) a couple of months earlier and it was fine (yes, noise people were present as couple of guys got stung)
Race up and down the country - same bike - fine.
I get the warning in the Q1 (last round @ Pukey) - then wedge the gadget in there (ie - make the effort to remedy the issue), ask to go out for a test run to see if its under the dB cut-off.
Get permission, head out and get told it's fine.
Then race 1 comes around.... Black flag, 2nd violation, - see ya.

Where's the consistency?????

I'm not knocking the club - they're a bunch of good pricks (especially that Kiwi Graham chap :nya:) By gadget do you mean baffle ? Had it come loose ? Any change in potential error factors I have raised earlier? Were you near any other bike when you were tested during the race and black flagged ? (Background noise error)

Mental Trousers

23rd March 2012, 10:06

Because of the inconsistency of test conditions, slight differences in equipment and operators, procedures etc the only way that people can guarantee they're going to be able to race at any meeting is to set their bikes up so they're quiet. From now on everyone is going to have to tune their bikes for quiet horsepower. It's not that difficult to do it just takes a bit more effort.

The biggest problem is people don't like someone telling them they're not allowed to do something. That and change.

The only sound I want to hear at a good volume on my bikes is the induction roar.

tee

23rd March 2012, 10:18

By gadget do you mean baffle ? Had it come loose ? Any change in potential error factors I have raised earlier? Were you near any other bike when you were tested during the race and black flagged ? (Background noise error)

It was the big insert (was a yoshimura one) like the one a couple of pages back that they use in the UK which is failsafe.....
It was "screwed" in, no chance to come loose (was a good fit).

Pretty sure there was no one right up my date.

I got down to within 1dB of the limit.
Was funny, my old man was there watching - he's an audio engineer (started out in Abbey Rd with the Beatles) with years in the industry.
He said it's pretty hard for the human ear to even pick up a 1dB difference at that level - he started rambling on about mics and acoustics and lost me a bit.

I'll be testing some stuff this weekend at T-Po, as I think I could be onto the problem and it might not be entirely exhaust related.........

Will keep you in the loop

slowpoke

23rd March 2012, 23:55

It was the big insert (was a yoshimura one) like the one a couple of pages back that they use in the UK which is failsafe.....
It was "screwed" in, no chance to come loose (was a good fit).

Pretty sure there was no one right up my date.

I got down to within 1dB of the limit.
Was funny, my old man was there watching - he's an audio engineer (started out in Abbey Rd with the Beatles) with years in the industry.
He said it's pretty hard for the human ear to even pick up a 1dB difference at that level - he started rambling on about mics and acoustics and lost me a bit.

I'll be testing some stuff this weekend at T-Po, as I think I could be onto the problem and it might not be entirely exhaust related.........

Will keep you in the loop

You're just too bloody fast bro, the Doppler Effect is working against ya. Do us all a favour, slow down, and it'll be problem solved. Same goes for the rest of you noisy bastidges......some of us are trying to sleep in the pits ya know. Jeezus how hard can it be.....:brick:

Seriously, it's weird that your realtively well muffled Beemer gets pinged but your RCM built GSXR1000 making similar horsepower at similar revs, complete with Q/S and the noisiest can known to mankind (Racefit growler) didn't. How does that work?

roogazza

24th March 2012, 07:23

Seriously, it's weird that your realtively well muffled Beemer gets pinged but your RCM built GSXR1000 making similar horsepower at similar revs, complete with Q/S and the noisiest can known to mankind (Racefit growler) didn't. How does that work?

These BMWs don't make induction noise do they Spud ? I've never seen one fired in anger.
A traffic cop in Lower Hutt city used to hound me in the mid sixties, trying to find why my YDS3 Yamaha made so much noise. He'd pull you over and study the mufflers while revving the shit out of it and scratching his head.
Under load with WOT it made a great noise. Frosty still nights I could be heard for miles. LOL G.

slowpoke

24th March 2012, 07:48

These BMWs don't make induction noise do they Spud ? I've never seen one fired in anger.
A traffic cop in Lower Hutt city used to hound me in the mid sixties, trying to find why my YDS3 Yamaha made so much noise. He'd pull you over and study the mufflers while revving the shit out of it and scratching his head.
Under load with WOT it made a great noise. Frosty still nights I could be heard for miles. LOL G.

Hiya Gaz, long time no hear mate. You sure it wasn't just you screaming "YEEEEEEHAAAAAAAAAAA!" when she came to the boil?

Nah, I was stood right on the pit wall at Teretonga with the bikes howling along close to the pit wall due to the 30knot Southerly "breeze" and didn't really pick up any induction noise from any of the bikes. I think they're just unlucky with the Q/S "pop", if it's right opposite the dB meter they're in trouble. It's not ideal but a simple gearing change or awareness of where the meter is could avoid the problem?

roogazza

24th March 2012, 08:55

Hiya Gaz, long time no hear mate. You sure it wasn't just you screaming "YEEEEEEHAAAAAAAAAAA!" when she came to the boil?

So you've met the wife then ? lol

Deano

25th March 2012, 01:48

Hiya Gaz, long time no hear mate. You sure it wasn't just you screaming "YEEEEEEHAAAAAAAAAAA!" when she came to the boil?

Nah, I was stood right on the pit wall at Teretonga with the bikes howling along close to the pit wall due to the 30knot Southerly "breeze" and didn't really pick up any induction noise from any of the bikes. I think they're just unlucky with the Q/S "pop", if it's right opposite the dB meter they're in trouble. It's not ideal but a simple gearing change or awareness of where the meter is could avoid the problem?the degree to which the qs pop is a factor will also depend on which noise descriptor is being used to determine compliance ie the time weighting applied

slowpoke

25th March 2012, 08:04

the degree to which the qs pop is a factor will also depend on which noise descriptor is being used to determine compliance ie the time weighting applied

Hmmm, we need to see exactly how these noise regs are worded then eh? You'd be the guru Deano but I'm guessing councils will have wording to the effect of either (levels are for example only) +105dB instantaneous peak or +99dB continuous for 3hours and it's game over?

Fuggit, I've got a Q/S sitting at home and I'm too scared to fit the bloody thing now....

p.dath

25th March 2012, 09:54

Hmmm, we need to see exactly how these noise regs are worded then eh? You'd be the guru Deano but I'm guessing councils will have wording to the effect of either (levels are for example only) +105dB instantaneous peak or +99dB continuous for 3hours and it's game over?

Fuggit, I've got a Q/S sitting at home and I'm too scared to fit the bloody thing now....

Here is the commissioners report for Western Springs.
http://www.aucklandcity.govt.nz/council/services/noise/docs/commissionersreport.pdf

Here is the bit your probably interested in:

8. The matters referred to in this paragraph are likely to be appropriate
for the noise management plan. No racing car operating at the
venue shall generate noise levels greater than 95 dB(A) Leq at any
location around the track assessed at 25 metres. The assessment
may be carried out at any time when the noise influence from any
other racing will not significantly influence the measured value.
The period of measurement will be for any 4 – 6 second period
during which time the race car must pass the measurement location
at no more than 25 metres and with the engine under near
maximum load.
The race car, when being tested, must be operating at a circulating
speed within one second of the race car’s best qualifying lap times.
Race cars, which the assessing officer determines have exhaust
noise containing excessive backfiring, will have 3 dB(A) Leq added
to the measured values before comparing the race car noise levels
with the criterion level.
The measurement location will provide an uninterrupted view to the
race car exhaust outlet when the exhaust outlet will be facing an
outside track measurement location.
During a racing event day within one hour of the commencement of
circuit events, the promoter will arrange 10 stationary noise checks
on randomly chosen race cars when the race cars remain in the pit
area. Where possible, the testing location should be screened
from view from any nearby houses. The screening material must
weigh at least 12 kg/m2 and must be twice the car length and 1.5
times higher than the highest part of the roll cage. A building may
be used to provide screening.
The purpose of the test will be to identify cars that may be required
to carry out formal testing on the circuit.
A type 1 grade sound level meter will be placed within 525mm of
any exhaust outlet.
The engine of the race car will be revved to three-quarters of
maximum engine power revs and held for a period of 2 – 5
seconds. The noise level recorded will be the dB(A) Leq for the
period.
The test will be repeated three times and the arithmetic average of
the recorded values reported. The noise level qualifying for a race
car to be considered for formal circuit testing will be determined by
correlation testing at a circuit but is expected to be in the order of
120 dB(A) Leq.
Owners of cars with stationary test noise levels greater than the
criterion level will be provided with three options:
1. Reduce the noise and re-test
2. Request a full circuit test
3. Not race at the event
Any race car owner requesting a full circuit test and failing the test
will be banned from the event .
During the racing events any race car identified during racing as
having significantly higher noise levels than the rest of the cars will
be considered for a stationary test at least and if failing the first
stationary test offered the same options described above.

p.dath

25th March 2012, 09:59

I wonder if the below test form Western Springs could be appropriately applied to Motorcycles, so as to give some certainty before going onto the track of being able to stay on the track:

A type 1 grade sound level meter will be placed within 525mm of
any exhaust outlet.
The engine of the race car will be revved to three-quarters of
maximum engine power revs and held for a period of 2 – 5
seconds. The noise level recorded will be the dB(A) Leq for the
period.
The test will be repeated three times and the arithmetic average of
the recorded values reported. The noise level qualifying for a race
car to be considered for formal circuit testing will be determined by
correlation testing at a circuit but is expected to be in the order of
120 dB(A) Leq.

The other thing to note is the info I posted was the result of a case placed before the Environment court - meaning there should be osme legal precedence to go down this path if MNZ decided.

The case itself involved Aucland City Council - so it was also bound by the court. All very complicated and murky at best.

FROSTY

25th March 2012, 21:04

slowpoke

26th March 2012, 00:28

Hey guys I'd like to make a suggestion. How about if we set a 90 dba. limit as a MNZ rule for all race bikes. Have it set in stone ASAP but effective as at 1/11/2012
My reasoning being that summer racing is all but over so bikes have the winter to find the means to quieten down.
It means that by being proactive there is little chance that a bike and by association a meeting can be shut down by whatever council.
Unfortunately we have western springs showing a clear precident as to what can happen if you keep pushing the boundries.
On that subject clearly there are venues were the PERCEIVED and actual dba levels are different.
Maybee thought also needs to be put into how to muffle the perceived sound.
By that I mean changes to the worst "sound tunnels" that might muffle the sound.
As billy clearly pointed out --The problem aint going away and as much as we would love it not all of New zealand is made up of petrolheads -let alone bikers.

Dunno 'bout Western Springs pushing the boundaries Frosty, it's more a case of people expecting the world to change for them rather than adapting to the world around them. Western Springs has been operating for nearly 80 years, yet folks move close to a very popular motorsport venue and then cause a rukus about the noise? Numpty's.

From the reading I've done there were something like 70 objections from local residents around Western Springs outweighing a petition from 10's of thousands of speedway supporters. As a result we now have the following restrictions in place:

"Noise levels are monitored from the start to the finish of each race. The levels must not exceed 90dBA L10 for 60 per cent of the total races on any night, and 88dBA L10 for the remaining 40 per cent of the races." (taken from Auckland Council website)

It's not just a case of setting a limit though. At what distance/angle? At what point on the track? Stationary tested? Where and in what surroundings? At what revs? Time weighted averaging? Or straight peak values? It's a complicated situation with no easy answers.

Kickaha

26th March 2012, 05:54

NordieBoy

26th March 2012, 07:20

I don't know where the tests were carried out but there's absolutely no point in having a dBmeter NATA certified if you are going to point it at a bike with a concrete wall, banking and apartment blocks directly behind it. It would be interesting to see the difference in results comparing readings taken on the front straight at HD and another set after turn 1 with it's comparatively wide open spaces.

Like at an OZ V8 meeting a few years ago where a lot of the cars were getting pinged for noise levels.
The tester was sitting at the start of a braking zone. Where the cars would backfire.

FROSTY

26th March 2012, 07:35

Dunno 'bout Western Springs pushing the boundaries Frosty, it's more a case of people expecting the world to change for them rather than adapting to the world around them. Western Springs has been operating for nearly 80 years, yet folks move close to a very popular motorsport venue and then cause a rukus about the noise? Numpty's.

From the reading I've done there were something like 70 objections from local residents around Western Springs outweighing a petition from 10's of thousands of speedway supporters. As a result we now have the following restrictions in place:

"Noise levels are monitored from the start to the finish of each race. The levels must not exceed 90dBA L10 for 60 per cent of the total races on any night, and 88dBA L10 for the remaining 40 per cent of the races." (taken from Auckland Council website)

It's not just a case of setting a limit though. At what distance/angle? At what point on the track? Stationary tested? Where and in what surroundings? At what revs? Time weighted averaging? Or straight peak values? It's a complicated situation with no easy answers.
Hi slowpoke--please you and anyone else understand I agree wholeheartedly with the thousands regarding WS. Except and I really think this is the important bit following.

The Western springs case was a bit of a benchmark really. Speedway organisers saw the situation happening YEARS before it came to the publics attention. Start of season they noise tested each and every car.I understand there wre a few pissed off crews and drivers.
But none the less every car on the track went out under the 95 (im sorry don't quote the number) dba having been tested ACCORDING TO COUNCIL REQUIREMENTS.
The problem was that some crews failing to see the big picture only complied because they had to pass "that damb test' and were constantly grubling about lost HP and how their cars were set up a certain way -muffling reduced HP.
The stack of disks in their supertraps got smaller and smaller (or other stuff that reduced the baffling)
THOSE GUYS meant that the whingers and whiners had a case to put to the council. Sure enough council turned up and cars were reading up over 100dba.(again I'm srry if the figure isn't correct)
The council got the meeting SHUT DOWN. I don't recall if one whole season got skipped or if it was only a couple of meetings but it took a lot of people to get the decision changed to whgat they have today. -DON'T for one second think that the council wont shut the place down if the noise spikes again.

Does this sound at all familiar??
Again mate I'm not for a second agreeing with the veiws of the idiots that build next to a racetrack and then complain about the noise.
I'm pointing out that a very clear precedent has been set. Its far far better for all racers to get their bikes to (BELOW) the correct level NOW before the whingers get meetings shut down. Again I also feel that means of quietening down areas on tracks that amplify the sound currently need to be looked at for means to queten things down.

I know there WILL be fucked off teams who will miss out on racing but IMO far far better that than letting the council have even a tiny toehold.

Pukekohe,manfeild even I think ruapuna are definitely venues where urban sprawl is closing in on the tracks.

Grumph

26th March 2012, 08:19

Deano

27th March 2012, 09:57

Deano

27th March 2012, 10:02

I agree that some aspects of circuit design will have a major affect on how noise is transmitted to the surrounding area - but unfortunately that is well outside our control. The trend here and overseas seems to be to suround the track with concrete buildings and walls - which reflect sound rather than absorbing or diffusing it. I'm led to believe that there are sound absorbing coatings which can help but that is of course $$$.
A flat circuit surrounded by trees is the best case for ease of noise control IMO - but that's not what you've got now.

Urban sprawl isn't a factor in the SI - the car club bought up the land around Ruapuna prior to the quakes luckily. And it's under the airport flight path too....

concrete walls make excellent acoustic barriers, making sound waves travel further to the recipient and attenuating the noise (often by 10dBA)

there will be reflections though

trees need to be quite dense to absorb noise - -they are often used to prevent a line of sight to the noise source, which has a psychological effect, making the recipient 'think' the noise is less

studies have shown trees can actualluy elevate noise slightly at night due to releasing CO2 into the air that the sound waves travel through, magnifying the noise ever so slightly (1dBA)

Biggles08

27th March 2012, 13:03

Urban sprawl isn't a factor in the SI - the car club bought up the land around Ruapuna prior to the quakes luckily. And it's under the airport flight path too....
I could be wrong but I thought it was actually the council that bought up that land, not the car club?

FROSTY

27th March 2012, 18:16

Hey deano. What about concrete walls covered in that rubber "eggcarton" stuff? Serious question because I'm no acoustics expert.

Grumph

27th March 2012, 19:01

I could be wrong but I thought it was actually the council that bought up that land, not the car club?

There was a three way deal between the Prison, the Council and Fulton Hogan some time back which got the Council a larger area for the track in exchange for some land swapping. It was brokered by the late Colin Hooper who was a long term fulton Hogan man.
Since then the car club has been buying up residential properties around the track. At present i think all the complainers have been bought out - for the moment.
Still not as good as Teretonga where the car club owns all the land between the road and the sea - incl the camp gound.

slowpoke

27th March 2012, 22:13

Hi slowpoke--please you and anyone else understand I agree wholeheartedly with the thousands regarding WS. Except and I really think this is the important bit following.

The Western springs case was a bit of a benchmark really. Speedway organisers saw the situation happening YEARS before it came to the publics attention. Start of season they noise tested each and every car.I understand there wre a few pissed off crews and drivers.
But none the less every car on the track went out under the 95 (im sorry don't quote the number) dba having been tested ACCORDING TO COUNCIL REQUIREMENTS.
The problem was that some crews failing to see the big picture only complied because they had to pass "that damb test' and were constantly grubling about lost HP and how their cars were set up a certain way -muffling reduced HP.
The stack of disks in their supertraps got smaller and smaller (or other stuff that reduced the baffling)
THOSE GUYS meant that the whingers and whiners had a case to put to the council. Sure enough council turned up and cars were reading up over 100dba.(again I'm srry if the figure isn't correct)
The council got the meeting SHUT DOWN. I don't recall if one whole season got skipped or if it was only a couple of meetings but it took a lot of people to get the decision changed to whgat they have today. -DON'T for one second think that the council wont shut the place down if the noise spikes again.

Does this sound at all familiar??
Again mate I'm not for a second agreeing with the veiws of the idiots that build next to a racetrack and then complain about the noise.
I'm pointing out that a very clear precedent has been set. Its far far better for all racers to get their bikes to (BELOW) the correct level NOW before the whingers get meetings shut down. Again I also feel that means of quietening down areas on tracks that amplify the sound currently need to be looked at for means to queten things down.

I know there WILL be fucked off teams who will miss out on racing but IMO far far better that than letting the council have even a tiny toehold.

Pukekohe,manfeild even I think ruapuna are definitely venues where urban sprawl is closing in on the tracks.

All good mate, I know exactly where you are coming from. And I can well imagine a few crews being shortsighted enough to push the noise envelope (even the level's are set extremely low), thereby rooting everyones fun in the future. Totally agree that the more we have our house in order that the better our long term prospects are.

On the plus side, it's making some speedway folks explore some innovative ways around it via quieter engines http://www.v8.co.nz/news-3900/kiwi-made-synergy-v8-engine-could-solve-speedway-noise-issues and experimental silencers, that could have some knock on effects for motorsport in general. We aren't alone in facing this problem so it will be interetsing to see how things progress.

slowpoke

27th March 2012, 22:17

concrete walls make excellent acoustic barriers, making sound waves travel further to the recipient and attenuating the noise (often by 10dBA)

there will be reflections though

trees need to be quite dense to absorb noise - -they are often used to prevent a line of sight to the noise source, which has a psychological effect, making the recipient 'think' the noise is less

studies have shown trees can actualluy elevate noise slightly at night due to releasing CO2 into the air that the sound waves travel through, magnifying the noise ever so slightly (1dBA)

Fukn hell, you ain't half sexy when you talk technical....gives me goosebumps that does, you sexy man beast you!