LAMS approved bikes

[Les]

Sorry if this has been gone over before...had a search thru the forums but couldn't find anything.

Can someone point me in the direction of the LAMS bike details for NZ? I've heard this is coming in later this year.

Had a look on the Land Transport licensing site but saw no reference to it.

Ta.

[sleemanj]

List has not been published yet (afaik). The Vic Roads LAM is the best place to look, our list will be quite likely very similar.

http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/Licences/OtherLicences/MotorcycleLicences/Approvedmotorcyclesfornoviceriders.htm

[Les]

Nice one. Thanks for that.

[The Singing Chef]

Sweet, hope the SV650 stays on.

[bogan]

Sweet, hope the SV650 stays on.

Yeh, it's like a list of bikes without class, so it should do :p

I notice the NTV650 deuville and revere are on there, as well as the 400cc bros, but the 647cc bros has too much class, as it should be :D

[Tigadee]

Lots of old bikes on that list! :facepalm:

So they're 'safe' for learners but will need more maintenance which a learner may not have the skils for (yet), which could result in unsafe riding due to mechanical issues, not speeding. Doh!

[The Singing Chef]

Yeh, it's like a list of bikes without class, so it should do :p

I notice the NTV650 deuville and revere are on there, as well as the 400cc bros, but the 647cc bros has too much class, as it should be :D

Haha ya cheeky bastard, ;)

Haha the whale is on there! Though for some reason it is very rare to be allowed to ship in the Deauville, but I know one person who has. Monsters are on there as well.

It's better than all 250's so I'm happy.

[SMOKEU]

I wonder if home built bikes with a jet engine will be allowed for n00bs to ride.

[MSTRS]

Sweet, hope the SV650 stays on.

Careful. This is one of the bikes that is a trap for young players...


In September 2008, Suzuki Australia introduced the SV650SU, a detuned version of the SV650S, to augment their range of motorcycles that comply with the country's Learner Approved Motorcycle Scheme (LAMS).[

[SMOKEU]

Careful. This is one of the bikes that is a trap for young players...

Apparently they're quite cheap and easy to derestrict.

[The Singing Chef]

Careful. This is one of the bikes that is a trap for young players...

Them Bastids! :brick:


Apparently they're quite cheap and easy to derestrict.

Hope so, or it will come to getting a sticker to put on the S version.

[MSTRS]

Apparently they're quite cheap and easy to derestrict.

I wouldn't know, but often it is a case of bypassing something electronic...
The Gladius is another that falls into the non- and complying versions.

Problem with derestricting comes when (if?) the cops become wise and I'm sure have ways of checking they are still LAMS-legal.
Remember, a standard non-LAMS SV, will not have the complying model code in the rego records.

[SMOKEU]

I wouldn't know, but often it is a case of bypassing something electronic...
The Gladius is another that falls into the non- and complying versions.

Problem with derestricting comes when (if?) the cops become wise and I'm sure have ways of checking they are still LAMS-legal.
Remember, a standard non-LAMS SV, will not have the complying model code in the rego records.

I did a bit of Googling and came up with this thread:

http://www.streetfighters.com.au/forum/showthread.php?10991-Derestrict-SV650-gladius-LAMS

Looks like it's not as cheap to derestrict as I initially thought as it needs a new ECU to derestrict it. Perhaps there is a performance chip that will do the same thing to save having to replace the ECU.

[SS90]

Sweet, hope the SV650 stays on.

Jeezus...... personally I hope not.

An SV650 legal for a 15 year old "Spotted Yuef"?...

Does anyone else remember when the RG 250's came out (Grey motor, with power valves), in the industry, they where nicknamed "kid killers"

I would be VERY surprised if an SV650 would be learner approved in NZ....(there is of course a race class for these in this country, that should set alarm bells ringing.)

The 250 rule is better (excluding RGV and NSR's and such like)

Shit, the rest of the world has to make do with 125's at best for learners.

[The Singing Chef]

Jeezus...... personally I hope not.

An SV650 legal for a 15 year old "Spotted Yuef"?...

Does anyone else remember when the RG 250's came out (Grey motor, with power valves), in the industry, they where nicknamed "kid killers"

I would be VERY surprised if an SV650 would be learner approved in NZ....(there is of course a race class for these in this country, that should set alarm bells ringing.)

The 250 rule is better (excluding RGV and NSR's and such like)

Shit, the rest of the world has to make do with 125's at best for learners.

True, a 16yr old on a Sv650 would be an interesting sight, but I am selfish and want one anyway.

They also race 150cc buckets and 250's as well.

[SMOKEU]

Shit, the rest of the world has to make do with 125's at best for learners.

In the USA a 1000cc sports bike is considered a perfect learner bike. Just look at the videos on Youtube!

[The Singing Chef]

Also, if it works for Aus it should work for us, it just comes down to learning the bike. I wonder how much it would be de-tuned? Although, I don't think that they would bring in any de-tuned models, but rather work from what we have. I can just swap parts from my race bike anyway and then chuck them back on for a track day.

[Bassmatt]

I did a bit of Googling and came up with this thread:

http://www.streetfighters.com.au/forum/showthread.php?10991-Derestrict-SV650-gladius-LAMS

Looks like it's not as cheap to derestrict as I initially thought as it needs a new ECU to derestrict it. Perhaps there is a performance chip that will do the same thing to save having to replace the ECU.

A new ECU? Fuck thats gonna be serious money to de restrict it then, I cant see them selling many if that is the case, bloody ridiculous.

[SMOKEU]

A new ECU? Fuck thats gonna be serious money to de restrict it then, I cant see them selling many if that is the case, bloody ridiculous.

I've seen plenty of performance chips on Trademe for cars which promise to alter ECU mapping so I can't see why the same thing can't be implemented on a bike.

I'm sure there are some programmers on KB that could make sense of the ECU and program a custom code to remove the restrictions.

[p.dath]

Lots of old bikes on that list! :facepalm:

So they're 'safe' for learners but will need more maintenance which a learner may not have the skils for (yet), which could result in unsafe riding due to mechanical issues, not speeding. Doh!

There really is no issue here. Just like with a car, people that don't have the skills to service and maintain the motobike will most likely go along to a motorcycle mechanic. I think you'll find there are plenty of people who do have the skills but not the time who still choose to take their bikes to a professional mechanic to work on.

And regardless of a persons skill level, there is still a WOF test required for a motorbike to establish a minimum level of safety.


I wonder if home built bikes with a jet engine will be allowed for n00bs to ride.

As I recall, the new LAMs regulation only applies to motorbikes with an internal combustion engine. But if I have remembered wrongly, the 150kw/tonne restriction would rule out the jet engine.

[sleemanj]

As I recall, the new LAMs regulation only applies to motorbikes with an internal combustion engine. But if I have remembered wrongly, the 150kw/tonne restriction would rule out the jet engine.

Entirely depends on the size of said jet engine (and your specific definition of jet engine).

A pulse jet probably ain't gonna get you much except angry deaf neighbours. Sure would be cool though. Whap whap whap whap.

[Bassmatt]

I've seen plenty of performance chips on Trademe for cars which promise to alter ECU mapping so I can't see why the same thing can't be implemented on a bike.

I'm sure there are some programmers on KB that could make sense of the ECU and program a custom code to remove the restrictions.

I did a bit more googling and it appears you do need a new ecu for the Gladius. AU$1800 for Suzuki to do it or try and find a second hand one on ebay.

[The Singing Chef]

I did a bit more googling and it appears you do need a new ecu for the Gladius. AU$1800 for Suzuki to do it or try and find a second hand one on ebay.

Ouch! Just get a thou, she'll be right.

[FJRider]

Do you think the cops would notice ... ???

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/cE7PS9f4_OA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Pogo2]

Do you think the cops would notice ... ???

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/cE7PS9f4_OA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

that the car behind you at the traffic lights would have its plastic bumper melting and all the pedestrians on the kerb would have their fingers in their ears so as not to go deaf plus that sweet smell of Jet A1 lingering on the wind!!!

[Bassmatt]

Ouch! Just get a thou, she'll be right.

Doesnt worry me I wouldnt have a Gladius if it was given to me. Ugly

[Bassmatt]

But my wife has one :facepalm:

[The Singing Chef]

Doesnt worry me I wouldnt have a Gladius if it was given to me. Ugly

Yea, I wouldn't ride it either.

[FJRider]

Yea, I wouldn't ride it either.

I would prefer it to walking ....

[Bassmatt]

Yea, I wouldn't ride it either.

Actually rides really nicely for what it is..........so they tell me:innocent:

[p.dath]

Entirely depends on the size of said jet engine (and your specific definition of jet engine).

A pulse jet probably ain't gonna get you much except angry deaf neighbours. Sure would be cool though. Whap whap whap whap.

Well, a 150kw/tonne limit specifically takes into consideration both power and weight ...

[The Singing Chef]

I would prefer it to walking ....

Yea, and the public transport system. It's killing me at the moment. I meant if you had a choice, like Bassmatt does.


Actually rides really nicely for what it is..........so they tell me:innocent:

Friend really likes hers as well, just don't like the look of them.

[The Pastor]

my 1st road bike was a 1000cc,

and i was fine.

[FJRider]

my 1st road bike was a 1000cc,

and i was fine.

So what caused the massive deteriation after that then ... ??? :shit:

[Big Dave]

A number of Aus lams approved bikes are 'restricted'. Particularly the 650s
They drill holes in the carburetor slides so they suck air instead of fuel at full throttle - thus decreasing the horsepower. Or they re-map the efi machines.

Part of the deal when buying one for a fully licensed rider - like my KLR650 - is to negotiate to have the holes bogged up or remapped as part of the purchase.

[yod]

Interesting:

That list states

All motorcycles with engine capacities of 0 – 260cc are approved under LAMS with the exception of the following models:
...which includes, amongst a few others, the NSR250.

The next section then states

The following motorcycles with engine capacities of 261 – 660cc are approved under LAMS.

These motorcycles must be in standard form as produced by the manufacturer. Any motorcycle modified in a way that increases its power-to-weight ratio is not LAMS approved regardless of whether it appears on the list


Presumably an NS250R (MC11) is an approved learner machine, as it is 0-260cc, not modified and not an NSR250 or any other bike on the exception list ?

edit: presumably this also allows RDs, RZs, etc?

https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS_gVf3n8ZS4AgNBxVcobWkP7z4r1KQd COH8-sUCtVwpotYAgDeWg

[Tigadee]

A pulse jet probably ain't gonna get you much except angry deaf neighbours. Sure would be cool though. Whap whap whap whap.

Yeah, you can pick up a surplus V1 engine for next to nothing at a German wreckers... :laugh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1qsBGTkVSk

[p.dath]

Interesting:

That list states

...which includes, amongst a few others, the NSR250.

The next section then states
...

Lets take a look at the actual legislation:
http://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/2011/0306/11.0/DLM3956501.html


“approved motorcycle means the make and model of any motorcycle that—

“(a) has an engine capacity of 250 cc or less, unless the Agency has prohibited the use of that make and model of motorcycle by notice published on the Agency's Internet site; or


“(b) has an engine capacity of more than 250 cc but not more than 660 cc and a power-to-weight ratio of not more than 150 kilowatts per tonne and is approved for use by the Agency by notice published on the Agency's Internet site



So motorcycles can be placed on a prohibited list - and I believe the NSR250 is being placed on that prohibited list.

[sleemanj]

Yeah, you can pick up a surplus V1 engine for next to nothing at a German wreckers... :laugh:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wb2Cl03E3t4

And not a bike, but DAMN THAT'S LOUD http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lf63jbhcphY&feature=fvwrel

[yod]

Lets take a look at the actual legislation:
http://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/2011/0306/11.0/DLM3956501.html



So motorcycles can be placed on a prohibited list - and I believe the NSR250 is being placed on that prohibited list.

Was that a typo? I expect the NSR will be excluded, but whether they bother to pick up the NS (and possibly RD, RZ also) is another question. If they *copy* this from an existing policy i.e. Oz in this case, there may well be a 'hole' there for these older two-smokers.

Although they could certainly be added down the track, as it were. Ba-doom tish!

[p.dath]

Was that a typo? I expect the NSR will be excluded, but whether they bother to pick up the NS (and possibly RD, RZ also) is another question. If they *copy* this from an existing policy i.e. Oz in this case, there may well be a 'hole' there for these older two-smokers.

Although they could certainly be added down the track, as it were. Ba-doom tish!

No type. It is being placed on the prohibited list - meaning it is excluded. You can be sure they are starting with the Australian list as a base. No point re-inventing the wheel when someone has already worked it out for you.

Plus our legislation is almost identical to theirs.

[yod]

No type. It is being placed on the prohibited list - meaning it is excluded. You can be sure they are starting with the Australian list as a base. No point re-inventing the wheel when someone has already worked it out for you.

Plus our legislation is almost identical to theirs.

Indeed, I'm just pointing out that the NS250R (not the NSR250) isn't excluded....but probably should be.

[FJRider]

Interesting:



It's really simple ...

The maximum power to weight ratio has already been stated. For a motorcycle to exceed that ... means it is not LAMS approved. Regardless of ANY list it may appear on.
I'm guessing the charge if caught will be the old "riding a motorcycle for which you are unlicenced for". With the appropiate fines and demerits. Piss the cop off with "attitude" .... and it may get impounded as well ...

If you "need" the extra ponies ... make it a sleeper. Attracting the attention of the enforcers can only be bad news ... and expensive.

[mossy1200]

Yeh, it's like a list of bikes without class, so it should do :p

I notice the NTV650 deuville and revere are on there, as well as the 400cc bros, but the 647cc bros has too much class, as it should be :D


the revere must be a fraction heavier maybe.I did one up and changed the bars to thruxton clip ons below the tripple clamp and it felt like you were on a bros.Maybe they have different cam with more mid range and torque.Or was it a 600 my memory is clouded now

[Hailwood]

There is a list of approved bikes. I rang Land Transport because I wanted to know if the Buell Blast was on the list..the guy I spoke to emailed the list to me...so it's out there people.....

[sleemanj]

There is a list of approved bikes. I rang Land Transport because I wanted to know if the Buell Blast was on the list..the guy I spoke to emailed the list to me...so it's out there people.....

Well, post it up.

[The Singing Chef]

Well, post it up.

+1

Share the love mate.

[nzvlogger]

+3 lol, i dont think my ZX6R is going to be on there though.

[The Singing Chef]

+3 lol, i dont think my ZX6R is going to be on there though.

You'll be right bro, just put a different sticker on there...easy.

[mossy1200]

You'll be right bro, just put a different sticker on there...easy.

Im thinking the average police wont know one model from another unless they are into bikes.all the enduro bkes will look the same to someone whoes not in the know.Idd say the two smokers will be targeted based on sound.

will the bike have LAMS on the rego sticker or anything?Or a vin plate etc attached.A SV650 worked up to F3 spec will still be a SV but would be well over power weight ratio.Even a race pipe with the weight reduction on some bikes would change the ratio enough.

If inspection required if its believed mods have made a bike not LAMS legal can you add weight to a bike to make the ratio correct.Eg bolt on 10kg weight to a TZR250.

[SMOKEU]

will the bike have LAMS on the rego sticker or anything?

Yes it will have something to that effect.

[The Singing Chef]

Im thinking the average police wont know one model from another unless they are into bikes.all the enduro bkes will look the same to someone whoes not in the know.Idd say the two smokers will be targeted based on sound.

will the bike have LAMS on the rego sticker or anything?Or a vin plate etc attached.A SV650 worked up to F3 spec will still be a SV but would be well over power weight ratio.Even a race pipe with the weight reduction on some bikes would change the ratio enough.

If inspection required if its believed mods have made a bike not LAMS legal can you add weight to a bike to make the ratio correct.Eg bolt on 10kg weight to a TZR250.

If you do the mods yourself, you can just slip on the old muffler for inspections sake. I doubt the police would do the inspection so no one would know it's changed.

I think that they will go with the LAM sticker for the rego, just have to be sneaky I guess.

[Big Dave]

Dunno about all that - The bike cops doing the ACC 'safety checks' are also hard-core enthusiasts. They know their oats.

[mossy1200]

If you do the mods yourself, you can just slip on the old muffler for inspections sake. I doubt the police would do the inspection so no one would know it's changed.

I think that they will go with the LAM sticker for the rego, just have to be sneaky I guess.

Yeah keep your original pipe.Dont chuck it.Engine mods they wont know whats been done and they couldnt dyno them as every dyno reads different and 2 many factors like airflow and temp etc.

Im just wondering if you can weigh a bike down and get it certified with altered power to weight.
I some countries they have detune kits that can be removed when you have full licence.

[mossy1200]

Dunno about all that - The bike cops doing the ACC 'safety checks' are also hard-core enthusiasts. They know their oats.

Yep but muffler and mods its hard to tell if said bike goes over power to weight ratio.On Wellington Motorcycles dyno some inline 4 250s might fail power to weight.

[The Singing Chef]

Yeah keep your original pipe.Dont chuck it.Engine mods they wont know whats been done and they couldnt dyno them as every dyno reads different and 2 many factors like airflow and temp etc.

Im just wondering if you can weigh a bike down and get it certified with altered power to weight.
I some countries they have detune kits that can be removed when you have full licence.

Would the difference between a full tank and reserve make a difference or do you reckon the would be going off the wet weight?

Maybe if you have decent underseat space, you could pack it with something? Though it would be a hard law to enforce, how many bikes could be "suspected" and sent off just for shits and giggles. I reckon that they would wave many through.

[mossy1200]

Would the difference between a full tank and reserve make a difference or do you reckon the would be going off the wet weight?

Maybe if you have decent underseat space, you could pack it with something? Though it would be a hard law to enforce, how many bikes could be "suspected" and sent off just for shits and giggles. I reckon that they would wave many through.

I think from memory calculation is done with 10kg petrol 80kg rider plus bike weight on factory spec weights and power.I cant imagine anyone will ever agree whoes dyno is accurate enough to measure.Motomarts is rear wheel and seems close and Wellington Motorcycles used to be off sprocket so zero rear wheel loss.Im not sure about now it was a few years ago that i have seen it and they may have a new one now.Idd expect there may be 10-20% diff in the results between those 2 alone.Dynos only seem any good to get a pre tune result followed by a after tune result to see the improvements.

If your a motorcycle manufacturer of twin 650s now you may want to underquote your results on factory specs or give rear wheel hp instead of crank hp

[The Singing Chef]

I think from memory calculation is done with 10kg petrol 80kg rider plus bike weight on factory spec weights and power.I cant imagine anyone will ever agree whoes dyno is accurate enough to measure.Motomarts is rear wheel and seems close and Wellington Motorcycles used to be off sprocket so zero rear wheel loss.Im not sure about now it was a few years ago that i have seen it and they may have a new one now.Idd expect there may be 10-20% diff in the results between those 2 alone.Dynos only seem any good to get a pre tune result followed by a after tune result to see the improvements.

If your a motorcycle manufacturer of twin 650s now you may want to underquote your results on factory specs or give rear wheel hp instead of crank hp

Leads me to wonder how it will be enforced, and I wish that guy would post up the list already, shall email NZTA and see if they will send me a copy.

[nzspokes]

Not sure if my bike will be LAMs legal our not, should really look into it. Tiz not on the aussie list

[Hailwood]

MAKE
MODEL MAKE
MODEL MAKE
MODEL MAKE
MODEL AJS
MODEL 18 or 30 DUCATI
350 or 450 Honda
FT500 HYOSUNG
COMET GT650L
400 SS JUNIOR Continued…
GB400 or 500
GV650L or SL or RL APRILA
MOTO 6.5
500SL Pantah
NT650v Deauville
PEGASO 650
600or 600M Monster
DREAM 305CC INDIAN
741 STOUT
RXV 450 or 550
600SS (Super sport 94-95)
NX650 IZH
Jupiter 350
SXV 450 or 550
All monster 98-01 model
NT400
Scarabeo 400 or 500
620 Multistrada Lite
NTV650 Revere JAWA
350
DM450 or 500
SH300 (NFOZ)
634 or 638 Road ARIEL
Huntmaster
M620i (24kw) Monster
SL350
Red Hunter 350 or 500
SL 500 or 600 Pantah
Steed 400 or 600 KAWASAKI
EN400
All up to 660cc
VF400C or F - Shadow
EN450
ENFIELD
Bullet Deluxe
VT500 or 600C Shadow
ER500A or C (ER-5) BENELLI
Velvet 400 (Royal)
Bullet Electra, 65
XBR500
EX400
Bullet 500 (All)
XL350 or 500
EX500A BLTACO
Sherpa
Bullet Classic
XL600R or V Transalp
GPZ550
Diesel 324
XR350 or 350R
GS550 or 600 BMW
F650 or CS, or GD or GS
Lightning 500
XR400M or R
GT550
F650ST
Military
XR500, 600 or 600R
KL600
R50, 60 or 60/5 or 60/6
Taurus
XR650L
KL650A or B or C or E
R65 or R69
KLE500A
GASGAS
EC300 or 400 HUSABERG
FE(ENDURO)4E8
KLR 650 BSA
B33
FSE400 or 450 or 500
FE(ENDURO)5E8
KLX300B or 400B
B50SS Goldstar
Pampera 320or 400 Trail
FE(ENDURO)7E8
KLX450A or R
Empirestar
Pampera 450
FE400 or 450 or 501
KLX650B or C
Golden Flash
SM400
FE550 or 600 or 650
KZ400 or 440
Lightning
SUPERMOTARD
FS450 or 650
KZ500 or 550
Spitfire MKIII
TT300
LTD440
Thunderbolt
TX320 HUSQVANA
350TE
LX400
All up to 650cc
TXT280 or 300
400SM
Z600A or 650B
400 or 410TE
ZR550B CAGIVA
410TE GILERA
NEXUS
430WR
Z500
610TE or TE-E
FUOCO
450SM
Canyon 500 or 600
450TC KTM
625 or 660 SMC
River 600 HARLEY
SS350
450TE
EXC SERIES 300,360
W16 600
450TXC
EXC SERIES 380, 400
650 Alazurra HONDA
BROS
510 or 610TE
EXC SERIES 510,525
650 Elefant
CB350 or 350F
610TE-E
GS SERIES 300,400
CB360 or 450 or 500
SM450ie or R
GS SERIES 450, 500 COSSACK
650
CB550 or 650
SM510ie or R
LC4 SERIES 300,400
CB400 or 400F or N or T
SM 610
LC4 SERIES 450, 500 DNEPER
K650
CRF450
TE450 or 510ie
LC4 SERIES 540, 550
CX500 (Not turbo)
TE610
LC4 SERIES 600, 625 DOUG
350
FJS400A (SW -T400)
WR260 or 400
LC4 SERIES 650
FJS600D Silverwing
WE430
PLEASE NOTE: Any motorcycle listed that exceeds 500cc will only considered if the model is pre 1990. Motorcycles may be added or removed from the approved list
at the agencies discretion, at any time, and without consultation.

[Hailwood]

MAKE
MODEL MAKE
MODEL MAKE
MODEL MAKE
MODEL MAICO
500 PEUGEOT
Geopolis 400cc TRIUMPH
Bonneville 650 YAMAHA
WR426F
Satelis 399
Speedtwin Continued…
WR450 or 450F MATCHLESS
600
Satelis 493
T100 Tiger
XJ550 or 650
650
Satelis 500cc
T100R Daytona 500
XJR400
G80 MAJOR
Thunderbird 650
XP500
All up to 660cc PIAGGIO
MP3 400
Trophy 500 or 650
XS400 or 650
X8 400
TRW25
XT225 or 350 or 500 LAVERDA
500
X9 500
All pre 1984 up to 660cc
XT550 or 600
XEVO 400
XT660R or X MONTESSA
3.5 Road
URAL
650
XTZ660
350 SPORT RICKMAN
650
XV535
500 STRADA
VELOCETTE
Mac 350
XVS650 or A
500W Rudgewhitworth
650 Ulster
MSS500
XZ550
500 Camel
Venom
YP 400
500 Sei SUZUKI
AN400 or 650
Cota
Citycom 300 VOR
400 or 450 ENDURO
DR350 or S
500 or 530 ENDURO
MOTO GUZZI
V35 or 50 or 65
DR400 or 500 or 650R
400 or 500SM
350GT
DR650R or RE or RL
FALCONE
DR650RSL or SE TM
300 Enduro
DR-Z400E
400E
MOTO MORINI
350 Sport
GR650
450E or MX
500 Strada
GS450E or S or SX
530MX or E
500W
GS500 or E or K
TM300,400,450 or 530
GS550
MUZ
BAGHIRA 660
GSX400E or F YAMAHA
DT400
SCORPION REPLICA
GSX650FU
IT426
SKORPION SPORT
GT380 or 500 or 550
IT465
SKORPION TOUR
Katana 550
IT490
Mastiff
LS650
MX400
PE400
RT2
MVAUGUSTA
350
RE5
RD350 pre 1975
SFV650V (Gladuis)
RD400
MZ
ETZ250
SV650SU
RT350
T500
SR500
NORTON
50
TS400
GS SERIES 550, 600
DOMINATOR
VS600 (Intruder)
SRX600
ES2
XF650
SZR660
MODEL 88
TT350
All up to 660cc SHERCO
S4 Enduro
TT600E or R
TX650
PANTHER
600
WR400F
650
All up to 660cc
PLEASE NOTE: Any motorcycle listed that exceeds 500cc will only considered if the model is pre 1990. Motorcycles may be added or removed from the approved list at the agencies discretion, at any time, and without consultation..

Thats the latest list i can find

[mossy1200]

Leads me to wonder how it will be enforced, and I wish that guy would post up the list already, shall email NZTA and see if they will send me a copy.

It will be the Aus list as they use the same calculation.

Im feeling sorry for guys that paid 8-9-10grand for a nice rs250 thats going to be worth near nill soon.
I wonder if existing owners will need change bike or will be exempt.Any way you look at it the price of 2 smokers is as good as dead so ill buy one cheap later to play on.
Next club race class may become "smoker 250 ".Would make a great budget class.

[mossy1200]

PLEASE NOTE: Any motorcycle listed that exceeds 500cc will only considered if the model is pre 1990. Motorcycles may be added or removed from the approved list at the agencies discretion, at any time, and without consultation.


Thats a bad one.Buy a legal bike one day and cant ride it the next if they change their mind.How can they do that?

Looks like hyobag and sv are out


No way IT490 is in.LOL thats not an ideal learner bike.Drum brakes and 60odd hp all coming on instantly.That shouldnt be in there.

[The Singing Chef]

PLEASE NOTE: Any motorcycle listed that exceeds 500cc will only considered if the model is pre 1990. Motorcycles may be added or removed from the approved list at the agencies discretion, at any time, and without consultation.


Thats a bad one.Buy a legal bike one day and cant ride it the next if they change their mind.How can they do that?

Looks like hyobag and sv are out


No way IT490 is in.LOL thats not an ideal learner bike.Drum brakes and 60odd hp all coming on instantly.That shouldnt be in there.

Damn, looks like either a motard or a monster for me. Or just get the 650 anyway or the thou version or Firestorm.
Guess I'll have to decide when the time comes.

[yod]

It's really simple ...

The maximum power to weight ratio has already been stated. For a motorcycle to exceed that ... means it is not LAMS approved. Regardless of ANY list it may appear on.
I'm guessing the charge if caught will be the old "riding a motorcycle for which you are unlicenced for". With the appropiate fines and demerits. Piss the cop off with "attitude" .... and it may get impounded as well ...

If you "need" the extra ponies ... make it a sleeper. Attracting the attention of the enforcers can only be bad news ... and expensive.


You're right, it's pretty simple. ;)


approved motorcycle means the make and model of any motorcycle that—

“(a) - has an engine capacity of 250 cc or less, unless the Agency has prohibited the use of that make and model of motorcycle by notice published on the Agency's Internet site; or

“(b) has an engine capacity of more than 250 cc but not more than 660 cc and a power-to-weight ratio of not more than 150 kilowatts per tonne and is approved for use by the Agency by notice published on the Agency's Internet site

So, it would appear the power/weight restriction is only applied if the bike is over 250cc, ergo; an NS250R falls under (a), as it's under 250 and not specifically prohibited by virtue of being published and most definitely does not fall under (b) as it does not exceed 250cc. IIRC my '87 MC11 was 140kg dry so perhaps 225 with rider and fluids, and 34kW(?) which is 151kW/tonne. Depends what weight rider and how much fuel they use for their calculations I suppose. Chuck a little chap on there with half tank of gas and it could be well over 160kW/tonne.

Assuming, of course, that the mindless automatons enacting this legislation just copy the 'list' from Oz :facepalm:

[FJRider]

So, it would appear the power/weight restriction is only applied if the bike is over 250cc

Assuming, of course, that the mindless automatons enacting this legislation just copy the 'list' from Oz :facepalm:

I would bet money ... any bike that exceeds the power/weight ratio will appear (eventually) on the banned list. Regardless of engine capacity.


Motorcycles may be added or removed from the approved list at the agencies discretion, at any time, and without consultation.

There lies the key to understanding it all. No arguement or disscussion needed.

Simple really ...

[p.dath]

I think from memory calculation is done with 10kg petrol 80kg rider plus bike weight on factory spec weights and power.I cant imagine anyone will ever agree whoes dyno is accurate enough to measure.Motomarts is rear wheel and seems close and Wellington Motorcycles used to be off sprocket so zero rear wheel loss.Im not sure about now it was a few years ago that i have seen it and they may have a new one now.Idd expect there may be 10-20% diff in the results between those 2 alone.Dynos only seem any good to get a pre tune result followed by a after tune result to see the improvements.

If your a motorcycle manufacturer of twin 650s now you may want to underquote your results on factory specs or give rear wheel hp instead of crank hp

The legislation in New Zealand makes no mention of how either the power or weight is measured.

[Kempz44]

What is this new law coming about that allows me (restricted rider) to move up to a 660cc? could someone please explain this to me?


cheers guys.

[GingerMidget]

LAMS (learner approved motorcycle system) based on the australian system of power to weight.

Its not official yet and nothing from NZTA has given a definite date.

[davereid]

LAMS Learner Approved Motorcycle Scheme comes into force on 1 October 2012.

Novice riders will be entitled to ride the following:
a motorcycle with an engine capacity of between 251 cc and 660 cc and a power-to-weight ratio of less than 150 kilowatts per tonne, if the motorcycle is approved by notice on the NZTA's website;
a motorcycle with an engine capacity of 250 cc or less, unless prohibited by notice on the NZTA's website.

[GingerMidget]

LAMS Learner Approved Motorcycle Scheme comes into force on 1 October 2012.

Novice riders will be entitled to ride the following:
a motorcycle with an engine capacity of between 251 cc and 660 cc and a power-to-weight ratio of less than 150 kilowatts per tonne, if the motorcycle is approved by notice on the NZTA's website;
a motorcycle with an engine capacity of 250 cc or less, unless prohibited by notice on the NZTA's website.

Got a link to that please?

[Kempz44]

do you know what bikes that includes? and if its deffo coming into nz?

[mossy1200]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/148043-LAMS-approved-bikes?highlight=lams

list is on last 2 pages

[steve_t]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/148043-LAMS-approved-bikes?highlight=lams

list is on last 2 pages

Eh? WTF? Did you just use the search function, Mossy? :shit:

[mossy1200]

Eh? WTF? Did you just use the search function, Mossy? :shit:

Sorry:nya:

[gonzo_akl]

Got a link to that please?

http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/rules/driver-licensing-amendment-2011-qa.html


point 2,

2. Introduction of a power-to-weight limit for learner and restricted riders

What restrictions are there on the types of motorcycles that novice riders can ride, and why?

Currently, holders of learner and restricted motorcycle licences are restricted to riding motorcycles of 250cc and less. However, advances in technology are limiting the effectiveness of the restriction. A number of powerful high-performance 250cc motorcycles capable of high speeds and rapid acceleration are available on the market. These motorcycles are not suitable for novice riders due to their power, riding position and handling. Advances in motorcycle power are likely to continue.

Most Australian states have recognised the 250cc novice rider restriction as a safety issue and have replaced this with the proposed power-to-weight/cc restriction through the introduction of a Learner Approved Motorcycle Scheme (LAMS). This has included a list of motorcycles that are LAMS-compliant, which has been researched thoroughly. LAMS has proved popular with the Australian motorcycling community, and could readily be adapted for use in New Zealand.

What is the power-to-weight ratio for learner and restricted riders?

Novice riders will be prohibited from riding the following:
a motorcycle over 660 cc;
a motorcycle with an engine capacity of between 251cc and 660 cc and a power-to-weight ratio of less than 150 kilowatts per tonne, unless the motorcycle is approved by notice on the NZTA's website;
a motorcycle with an engine capacity of between 251cc and 660 cc and a power-to-weight ratio of more than 150 kilowatts per tonne;
a motorcycle with an engine capacity of 250 cc or less, if prohibited by the NZTA by notice on the NZTA's website.

This means novice riders will be entitled to ride the following:
a motorcycle with an engine capacity of between 251 cc and 660 cc and a power-to-weight ratio of less than 150 kilowatts per tonne, only if the motorcycle is approved by notice on the NZTA's website;
a motorcycle with an engine capacity of 250 cc or less, unless prohibited by notice on the NZTA's website.

[fetchfire]

What I find odd here is that my 250 hornet is stated to have 40hp, it has a better power to weight ratio than my DRz400sm. But in reality the drz seems much more powerful.

If they end up banning the hornet I will never be able to sell it again.

[Asher]

Currently, holders of learner and restricted motorcycle licences are restricted to riding motorcycles of 250cc and less. However, advances in technology are limiting the effectiveness of the restriction. A number of powerful high-performance 250cc motorcycles capable of high speeds and rapid acceleration are available on the market. These motorcycles are not suitable for novice riders due to their power, riding position and handling. Advances in motorcycle power are likely to continue.
.

Hahaha they say its because of advances in technology then only exclude 250cc bike made in the late 80's/early 90's.
250cc bikes these days have pathetic power.

[Asher]

What I find odd here is that my 250 hornet is stated to have 40hp, it has a better power to weight ratio than my DRz400sm. But in reality the drz seems much more powerful.

If they end up banning the hornet I will never be able to sell it again.

Only 2 strokes are likely to be banned.
But your right, they only look at weight and power. A bike could have huge torque but still be considered suitable for learners.

[sleemanj]

What I find odd here is that my 250 hornet is stated to have 40hp, it has a better power to weight ratio than my DRz400sm. But in reality the drz seems much more powerful.

"Racehorse vs Clydesdale". The racehorse will carry a small load very fast, the Clydesdale will take all day but haul a massive load.

The Hornet is the racehorse, it's high horsepower are produced at high RPM.

The DRZ is the clydesdale, it's high horsepower are produced at low(er) RPM.

[FJRider]

What I find odd here is that my 250 hornet is stated to have 40hp, it has a better power to weight ratio than my DRz400sm. But in reality the drz seems much more powerful.



That 40 horsepower is developed at (or near) red-line. The DRZ has more torque at the lower revs.

Look at the speed being achieved at red-line of both bikes ... and scale them back to legal speeds and compare the two.

[Twitch]

Hi all. I'm new here and am looking to get into this biking game :) I can't wait! My husband has a Kwaka ZZR1100 and I'm getting serious about getting my licence.
Question is, do I sit it now before the rules change in October, or do I wait? I don't want a big bike to start with, I'm leaning towards a lil Bandit or similar. But what's the market going to be for a bike like this in the future (to resell)?
What do you all think the pros and cons are of this rule change as far as bike choice goes? I mean, having a new LAMS 400 or something bigger is all well and good but it'll be restricted and more likely than not it will be too expensive to de-restrict later. So I guess my question is more directed at, is there any reason to wait, and will I be able to pick up a dirt cheap 250 if I get my licence now and wait until after the change to get my bike! :)
Hmm, I just want to go ride!! i don't care what on!
Thanks for your input :)
L

[sil3nt]

Hi all. I'm new here and am looking to get into this biking game :) I can't wait! My husband has a Kwaka ZZR1100 and I'm getting serious about getting my licence.
Question is, do I sit it now before the rules change in October, or do I wait? I don't want a big bike to start with, I'm leaning towards a lil Bandit or similar. But what's the market going to be for a bike like this in the future (to resell)?
What do you all think the pros and cons are of this rule change as far as bike choice goes? I mean, having a new LAMS 400 or something bigger is all well and good but it'll be restricted and more likely than not it will be too expensive to de-restrict later. So I guess my question is more directed at, is there any reason to wait, and will I be able to pick up a dirt cheap 250 if I get my licence now and wait until after the change to get my bike! :)
Hmm, I just want to go ride!! i don't care what on!
Thanks for your input :)
LThe sooner you get your licence the better. There is no advantage in getting it after October. The bikes on the LAMS list are hardly any better/faster than a current 250 unless you buy new - assuming manufacturers bring in new LAMS models like Australia.

I think the market for 250's will still be around. There are bandits in Australia going for around $2000 which is the same price you can get here if you look around.

Get your licence now (less waiting for full) and don't spend too much on a 2nd hand 250 and you won't lose anything later on.

[FJRider]

Hi all. I'm new here and am looking to get into this biking game :) I can't wait! My husband has a Kwaka ZZR1100 and I'm getting serious about getting my licence.
Question is, do I sit it now before the rules change in October, or do I wait? I don't want a big bike to start with, I'm leaning towards a lil Bandit or similar. But what's the market going to be for a bike like this in the future (to resell)?
What do you all think the pros and cons are of this rule change as far as bike choice goes? I mean, having a new LAMS 400 or something bigger is all well and good but it'll be restricted and more likely than not it will be too expensive to de-restrict later. So I guess my question is more directed at, is there any reason to wait, and will I be able to pick up a dirt cheap 250 if I get my licence now and wait until after the change to get my bike! :)
Hmm, I just want to go ride!! i don't care what on!
Thanks for your input :)
L

It's still a good idea to learn on a small (read light) bike as you can never have too much experience ... whatever you may be "allowed" wont change that. If a bigger may suit you better later (if you are a tall/large person) or experience warrants it ... sell/swap for a larger LAM's bike later.
The LAM's bikes (as I understand) are not allowed to be restricted by any modification that may later at any time be un-restricted.
The power to weight ratio that determines if those bikes ARE in the LAM's list ... will be based on the manufacturer's claims (and I gather ... verified by officialdom)

[Marmoot]

I lolled at the Australian list.

RVF400 is approved, but VFR400, CBR400RR, NSR250R/SP/SE are not.

Loophole?

http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/Licences/OtherLicences/MotorcycleLicences/Approvedmotorcyclesfornoviceriders.htm

[FJRider]

I lolled at the Australian list.

RVF400 is approved, but VFR400, CBR400RR, NSR250R/SP/SE are not.

Loophole?

Nope ... There is NO guarantee that the exact same list will be followed to the letter ... er ... bike ... :shifty:

Untill the New Zealand list is made official ... :scratch: :whistle: :wait: :sleep:

[nzspokes]

What I find odd here is that my 250 hornet is stated to have 40hp, it has a better power to weight ratio than my DRz400sm. But in reality the drz seems much more powerful.

If they end up banning the hornet I will never be able to sell it again.

But your hornet is a lot heavier than your trail bike. A mate had done the calculation for the Hornet and it makes it in fine.

My 400 does not with being to light and to much hp.

[Marmoot]

Nope ... There is NO guarantee that the exact same list will be followed to the letter

Yer. Wasn't talking about ours.
I was just laughing at those fools across the ditch.

[GrayWolf]

now here's an interesting thought... re the model of bikes over 500cc made before 1990.... per the Aussie list.. You could by the old XT 600/660 air cooled and the XTZ660 tenere... as they are pre 1990, however the new XTX660 tenere' will be unavailable as its a 'new model' but uses the exact same motor... So there is going to be some possible anomalies to accessibility. So the venerable GS500 Suzuki and EN500 Kawasaki looks like they could be the 'go to' models.

[tigertim20]

now here's an interesting thought... re the model of bikes over 500cc made before 1990.... per the Aussie list.. You could by the old XT 600/660 air cooled and the XTZ660 tenere... as they are pre 1990, however the new XTX660 tenere' will be unavailable as its a 'new model' but uses the exact same motor... So there is going to be some possible anomalies to accessibility. So the venerable GS500 Suzuki and EN500 Kawasaki looks like they could be the 'go to' models.

if the new models still meet the power to weight restrictions, they can be added to the list later on, the list is designed to be a living list, as its possible manufacturers will make bikes to fit into these requirements for a population the size of australia, which will mean we could get them too.

I understand there will be a submission process to have other models etc added at reviews, such as them who want to get a 75 year old bike and ride around

[Twitch]

Thanks Sil3nt and FJrider, you just cemented what I was thinking. :)
My hubby has been riding all his life and is (thankfully) a very sensible rider now he's older ha ha. So I'm not going to rush into a big bike, I know it's how much twist you apply that determins the output of the bike and I'm in no rush to kill myself trying to prove anything to anybody! So am happy to 'learn my trade' on a small bike I'm comfortable on.
Oh but I have tried on a street triple for size and it's comfy and didn't feel too big which is a relief for a small sized lady :) I'll be happy if he lets me get one in a few years time ha ha
Thanks all.

[actungbaby]

What I find odd here is that my 250 hornet is stated to have 40hp, it has a better power to weight ratio than my DRz400sm. But in reality the drz seems much more powerful.

If they end up banning the hornet I will never be able to sell it again.

Well the drz is lighter and the sound of bike can make it sound faster too the hornet whould feel smother i imagine

What am confussed about is when these new rules come into play am buying 250cc bikes

for my nephew by time i get one to work you as it seems use up to what ?? 650 or it
power level bit cofussing

[Kempz44]

Hey, is LAMS to good to be true? or is it really coming to nz? i was going to buy a 250 (currently on a 125) but then heard about lams.

My question is; do the letters after the cc rating count? e.g is a Suzuki svf650u the same as a sv650? its magic that the sv650 and er6n is on the lams list!

Cheers

[FJRider]

There have already been a few threads on the subject. The search button is top right ... or look in the forums ...

[Kempz44]

I cant find anything about the de-restrcition process. Does the bike need to be de-restrcied to 54bhp in order to comply with the law?

[tigertim20]

I cant find anything about the de-restrcition process. Does the bike need to be de-restrcied to 54bhp in order to comply with the law?

NZTA or whatever authority will put out a list of bikes that are legal to use. At this point, most have made the assumption that out list will be the same as the lists in use in australia - but we will not not for sure until the lists are actually published.

Basically if the bike is on that list, it is legal, if it isnt, its not legal.
I understand that there will be a submission process whereby if you discover a bike that may have been overlooked, you can apply to them to see if they will approve it for you - a similar process to the discretionary application process that already exists for people who apply for a dispensation to ride larger than 250cc bikes under the current law, - but again, this is speculative - we cant be sure until the lists are published.

[tigertim20]

I cant find anything about the de-restrcition process. Does the bike need to be de-restrcied to 54bhp in order to comply with the law?

why would you need derestrict it to fit the law?

[Ender EnZed]

My question is; do the letters after the cc rating count?

Yes.


e.g is a Suzuki svf650u the same as a sv650?

No.

[FJRider]

I cant find anything about the de-restrcition process. Does the bike need to be de-restrcied to 54bhp in order to comply with the law?

The LAM's list will be based on power to weight ratio ... not maximum power developed ... as such.

Only UN-restricted bikes that fit the power to weight ratio will be on the list.

[Kempz44]

I ask because i read in an Australian forum that the bikes need to be restricted to 54bhp, but better if not. Hope the lists come out soon, wana buy a bike asap

[FJRider]

I ask because i read in an Australian forum that the bikes need to be restricted to 54bhp, but better if not. Hope the lists come out soon, wana buy a bike asap

More likely ... those bikes that develop more than 54 bhp, need to be dam heavy to abide by the rules and get on the list.

Bikes that have a restriction (as standard .. or otherwise) that can be removed to achieve a greater (than allowed) horsepower will not be allowed "on the list".

250's will always have a market ... get a bike (ANY legal size) ... and RIDE ... life is short ...

[rastuscat]

Just get a full licence, and ride whatever takes your fancy.

Simple ideas are nearly always the best. :done:

[sleemanj]

The offical list of Approved, and Prohibited bikes come October 1st is now published here...
http://www.nzta.govt.nz/licence/getting/motorcycles/approved-motorcycles.html#overview

[winston]

The offical list of Approved, and Prohibited bikes come October 1st is now published here...
http://www.nzta.govt.nz/licence/getting/motorcycles/approved-motorcycles.html#overview

LOL the BMW F650 is on the list. Mines not really there as its 800cc. idiots. they cant ebven get that right.

[sil3nt]

LOL RVF 400. Wonder if we can convince them to let the NC30 on there :bleh:

[GrayWolf]

WTF?? Post 1975 RD350's are banned, but the RD400 is acceptable?? The LC was only very slightly quicker than the 400E/F/G's.

[tigertim20]

fantastic, we have bitched for years about the lack of variety available to learners, and now the list has been available for how many days, and we are bitching about the omissions already?

fuck, its a big step forward from 'you must ride 250s'.
plenty of bikes on that list to pick from

[Ocean1]

plenty of bikes on that list to pick from

Including KTM's 525 EXC, and a couple similar.

Wonder what contortions the formula underwent to slide those in there...

[FJRider]

WTF?? Post 1975 RD350's are banned, but the RD400 is acceptable?? The LC was only very slightly quicker than the 400E/F/G's.

You were expecting logic in the list ... ??? :pinch: :crazy: :lol:

[GrayWolf]

You were expecting logic in the list ... ??? :pinch: :crazy: :lol:

no I suppose I should have expected that, but as thr RD400 is off the Auusie list I was hoping NZ would follow suit... I dont want to think of the spotty faced urchins who buy sprot 250's being let loose on THE classic hoon's machine

[Ender EnZed]

no I suppose I should have expected that, but as thr RD400 is off the Auusie list I was hoping NZ would follow suit... I dont want to think of the spotty faced urchins who buy sprot 250's being let loose on THE classic hoon's machine

There's no chance of that anyway though. There aren't any to buy.

[Ollie.T]

Is there something special and restricted about a GSX-R600U?

Cos a GSXR is not really my idea of a ideal learners bike...

[Asher]

Is there something special and restricted about a GSX-R600U?

Cos a GSXR is not really my idea of a ideal learners bike...

Only 25kw:sleep:

[Ender EnZed]

Is there something special and restricted about a GSX-R600U?

Yes.

The U means it's restricted.

[Asher]

Yes.

The U means it's restricted.

Apparently it just runs off a second map, snip a wire in the ecu and it goes back to the 100 odd hp map.:Punk:

[biker baz]

Come 1 july those wonderful chaps & chapesses at ACC will announce that LAMS approved bikes, which in ltsa's own words are safer to ride, will pay the current 250cc-600cc levy or less:psst: Furthermore the repentant criminals that they are...not, will revamp the cc rating structure of acc levys to fairly reflect the new power to weight ratio rules.
Imagine that possums a 650cc single owner on the list will pay $300 +/- less every year. That is one front tyre or 60 $5 beers. Imagine too the outrage among 100,000 bikers who vote if this does not happen.
I feel another bikeoi coming on.

[FJRider]

Come 1 july those wonderful chaps & chapesses at ACC will announce that LAMS approved bikes, which in ltsa's own words are safer to ride, will pay the current 250cc-600cc levy or less:psst: Furthermore the repentant criminals that they are...not, will revamp the cc rating structure of acc levys to fairly reflect the new power to weight ratio rules.
Imagine that possums a 650cc single owner on the list will pay $300 +/- less every year. That is one front tyre or 60 $5 beers. Imagine too the outrage among 100,000 bikers who vote if this does not happen.
I feel another bikeoi coming on.

So the bikes of choice in the new rules will be under 600cc. Big deal. Those that choose to go to the larger bike will know they have to pay more. As riders do now .... What makes learners so special to get more rules changed ... just for them ??? Learner riders are being given a far greater range of bikes available than they have ever had for a long long time. Nobody will be forcing them to get an over 600cc machine. It is entirely up to the new (potential) owners what they buy from "The list".

"Revamp" is not necessairly a reduction in the fee's ...

[Asher]

So the bikes of choice in the new rules will be under 600cc. Big deal. Those that choose to go to the larger bike will know they have to pay more. As riders do now .... What makes learners so special to get more rules changed ... just for them ??? Learner riders are being given a far greater range of bikes available than they have ever had for a long long time. Nobody will be forcing them to get an over 600cc machine. It is entirely up to the new (potential) owners what they buy from "The list".

Maybe they will make it more expensive to register scooters, moped and 250cc bikes to properly reflect there higher risk:no::laugh:

[Skiwi]

To those that a moaning about the list....am I missing something?

When you boil it down I read this to mean that learners will have a greater choice of bikes, where's the down side to that?

[FJRider]

Maybe they will make it more expensive to register scooters, moped and 250cc bikes to properly reflect there higher risk:no::laugh:

I think there are a few more people ... that are more at risk than scooter riders. Learner riders on a 600cc+ machines for a start. The rego cost will only be part of the new costing to be taken into account. Insurance premiums for the larger allowed bikes for an L plate rider ... will be beyond the ability of some to afford. (Its difficult now for some) Especially under 25's ...

For the initial learning stage for beginner motorcyclists ... the 250 or under will still be a more sensible choice. The move up to restricted may be the time they start looking at the larger (longer term) bikes. In my opinion ... such initial learner bikes wont be kept for as long a period as is usual under current legislation. As such ... I can't see the new bike (250 and under) sales rate improving after October.

And ... I can't see a reduction in (reported) accidents in the learner/restricted class anytime soon after the new rules kick in. If an increase in such does happen ... the powers that be may see it as justification for the levy increases.

[Zamiam]

Come 1 july those wonderful chaps & chapesses at ACC will announce that LAMS approved bikes, which in ltsa's own words are safer to ride, will pay the current 250cc-600cc levy or less:psst: Furthermore the repentant criminals that they are...not, will revamp the cc rating structure of acc levys to fairly reflect the new power to weight ratio rules.
Imagine that possums a 650cc single owner on the list will pay $300 +/- less every year. That is one front tyre or 60 $5 beers. Imagine too the outrage among 100,000 bikers who vote if this does not happen.
I feel another bikeoi coming on.

Obviously a learner rider on a LAMs approved 650cc bike is safer than an experienced rider on a 750cc bike. Silly me I thought the learner would be a greater risk. Might be time to buy a Honda:bleh:

[FJRider]

Maybe they will make it more expensive to register scooters, moped and 250cc bikes to properly reflect there higher risk:no::laugh:

Does "revamp" mean increase or decrease ... ???

[Ender EnZed]

Come 1 july those wonderful chaps & chapesses at ACC will announce that LAMS approved bikes, which in ltsa's own words are safer to ride, will pay the current 250cc-600cc levy or less:psst: Furthermore the repentant criminals that they are...not, will revamp the cc rating structure of acc levys to fairly reflect the new power to weight ratio rules.
Imagine that possums a 650cc single owner on the list will pay $300 +/- less every year.

That would be excellent.

The current situation where my DR650 costs more to register than a GSXR600 is just stupid.

[Ragingrob]

That would be excellent.

The current situation where my DR650 costs more to register than a GSXR600 is just stupid.

Why?

10char

[GrayWolf]

IF and I mean IF they decide to go along with the power to weight ratio for the 'LAM's bikes as a basis. Then maybe those of us who dont have the urge for 180+BHP bikes that weigh under 200kg's may actually get a lower Rego cost. That will reflect the lower 'risk' we are to ourselves....... YEAH RIGHT!!!!

[awa355]

That would be excellent.

The current situation where my DR650 costs more to register than a GSXR600 is just stupid.

I agree, If I had a GSXR600, I'd be winging it a lot quicker than my XVS650 cruiser. Hence, my safety margin goes down, my risk factor goes up. And that's with 44 years sensible riding ( mostly) to make my judgement calls from.

There's no way I would stick to 'Nana' riding on a 100+hp sportsbike, so I reckon my chances of an accident would increase.

[tigertim20]

Why?

10char

if you need to ask that, you are clearly retarded:bash:

[Ragingrob]

if you need to ask that, you are clearly retarded:bash:

So rider 1 is on a gsxr600 commuting to and from work in the city at 50kph, rider 2 is on a dr650 going for blasts on the weekend, taking part in exhilarating off-road trail rides and even hits a few small jumps.

Is it retarded to think both riders could get injured in their own way and be claiming equal amounts from ACC?

[quickbuck]

So rider 1 is on a gsxr600 commuting to and from work in the city at 50kph, rider 2 is on a dr650 going for blasts on the weekend, taking part in exhilarating off-road trail rides and even hits a few small jumps.

Is it retarded to think both riders could get injured in their own way and be claiming equal amounts from ACC?

Where have you been????
It is cheaper to register a bike less than 600cc than it is a 650.
Don't bring locic into this. When the fee structure was set up a couple of years ago, logic wasn't used.
Further more, LAMS approved bikes were already being talked about.... It was a classic case of left hand not talking to right foot.

I am glad to see that there is going to be a revamp in the structure....
Hell, with a $3.5 billion excess, surely ACC can afford it now??

[quickbuck]

LOL RVF 400. Wonder if we can convince them to let the NC30 on there :bleh:
NO!
The RVF (NC35) Makes it on there as it is slightly heavier and produced less power than the NC30.
The 150kw/tonne formula was used to determine what was legal and what was not, followed by an application by the importers.

[quickbuck]

Including KTM's 525 EXC, and a couple similar.

Wonder what contortions the formula underwent to slide those in there...

They used BigDave as the test rider?

Or KTM used the incorrect figures when making the application.....

[Ragingrob]

Where have you been????
It is cheaper to register a bike less than 600cc than it is a 650.
Don't bring locic into this. When the fee structure was set up a couple of years ago, logic wasn't used.
Further more, LAMS approved bikes were already being talked about.... It was a classic case of left hand not talking to right foot.

I am glad to see that there is going to be a revamp in the structure....
Hell, with a $3.5 billion excess, surely ACC can afford it now??

I was replying to the comment regarding LAMS "The current situation where my DR650 costs more to register than a GSXR600 is just stupid."

[quickbuck]

I was replying to the comment regarding LAMS "The current situation where my DR650 costs more to register than a GSXR600 is just stupid."

Now you have confused me.
LAMS doesn't take effect until October 1st....
The current situation is as it has been for the past few years.

Sorry,, it might be the pills.....

[GrayWolf]

I was replying to the comment regarding LAMS "The current situation where my DR650 costs more to register than a GSXR600 is just stupid."

Unfortunately, the bike insurance industry is similar, when I insured my bike (1670cc) I ended up using Kiwibike insurance, completely different attitude to my preceding insurer. When you talk to the sales rep's or brokers, most have no idea about motorcycle's in general. I was told "oh 1700cc thats powerful"..."no it isnt, its a V twin and low revving. It has half the BHP of a 1000cc+ sprot bike, and is about 100kph slower on top speed"..... "yes but its 1700cc so it has to be powerful"... if you look at europe, cars are put into groups, engine size, ancillary equipment like turbo's etc.... type of car, sports, coupe', family saloon all contribute to the insurance group the car ends up in, with the stepped licence system they have bikes have also been loosely 'grouped now'.. Here, they simply have'nt and probably wont do the same for bikes, they can make more 'revenue' by simply using a cc and value formula to quote you.

[sil3nt]

NO!
The RVF (NC35) Makes it on there as it is slightly heavier and produced less power than the NC30.
The 150kw/tonne formula was used to determine what was legal and what was not, followed by an application by the importers.It is 1kg heavier and quoted power was only 53HP instead of 59HP which isn't quite true :bleh:

[quickbuck]

It is 1kg heavier and quoted power was only 53HP instead of 59HP which isn't quite true :bleh:

Random figures of convenience ;)

[Ragingrob]

Now you have confused me.
LAMS doesn't take effect until October 1st....
The current situation is as it has been for the past few years.

Sorry,, it might be the pills.....


Unfortunately, the bike insurance industry is similar, when I insured my bike (1670cc) I ended up using Kiwibike insurance, completely different attitude to my preceding insurer. When you talk to the sales rep's or brokers, most have no idea about motorcycle's in general. I was told "oh 1700cc thats powerful"..."no it isnt, its a V twin and low revving. It has half the BHP of a 1000cc+ sprot bike, and is about 100kph slower on top speed"..... "yes but its 1700cc so it has to be powerful"... if you look at europe, cars are put into groups, engine size, ancillary equipment like turbo's etc.... type of car, sports, coupe', family saloon all contribute to the insurance group the car ends up in, with the stepped licence system they have bikes have also been loosely 'grouped now'.. Here, they simply have'nt and probably wont do the same for bikes, they can make more 'revenue' by simply using a cc and value formula to quote you.

Haha I was actually meaning that paying more for a dr650 compared to a gsxr600 is not necessarily stupid, we all know it's down to the individual so I thought it was just a throwaway comment... I'd be thinking a rider with years of experience would pay less ACC than a L-plate rider hopping on a dr650/ktm as their very first bike.

[Ender EnZed]

So rider 1 is on a gsxr600 commuting to and from work in the city at 50kph, rider 2 is on a dr650 going for blasts on the weekend, taking part in exhilarating off-road trail rides and even hits a few small jumps.

Is it retarded to think both riders could get injured in their own way and be claiming equal amounts from ACC?

Sure, that could happen. But the existing acc levy structure is obviously of much the same structure as GrayWolf's description of insurance. I.e. More power is more dangerous and power is measured in ccs.

Rider 1 on a 49cc scooter might fall off at the first roundabout and a rider 2 on a Hayabusa might have 40 years experience.
Is it retarded to think that ACC should charge a higher levy for 49cc scooters than for Hayabusas?

[Cam_Valk]

It is 1kg heavier and quoted power was only 53HP instead of 59HP which isn't quite true :bleh:


Shhhhhhh.
Please just let me have this one :(
Dont want to accumulate another $360 worth of fines

[Ragingrob]

Sure, that could happen. But the existing acc levy structure is obviously of much the same structure as GrayWolf's description of insurance. I.e. More power is more dangerous and power is measured in ccs.

Rider 1 on a 49cc scooter might fall off at the first roundabout and a rider 2 on a Hayabusa might have 40 years experience.
Is it retarded to think that ACC should charge a higher levy for 49cc scooters than for Hayabusas?

And then if it were like insurance, Rider 1's ACC premiums would increase with every incident and Rider 2 would be enjoying a no-claims bonus. ACC levies should also be based on mileage of the rider like RUC.

But anyway, we've all had the ACC debate, getting a little off-topic!

Back to LAMS, definitely going to be interesting to see how some first time riders handle a few of those bigger bikes from the get-go!

[tigertim20]

So rider 1 is on a gsxr600 commuting to and from work in the city at 50kph, rider 2 is on a dr650 going for blasts on the weekend, taking part in exhilarating off-road trail rides and even hits a few small jumps.

Is it retarded to think both riders could get injured in their own way and be claiming equal amounts from ACC?

you are missing the point. the current rego costs are designed to hit those with more powerful bikes - and as for your example - you are describing off road riding, which is irrelevant as far as the cost of rego, the acc component money for which is supposed to cover incidents ON the road

[Ragingrob]

you are missing the point. the current rego costs are designed to hit those with more powerful bikes - and as for your example - you are describing off road riding, which is irrelevant as far as the cost of rego, the acc component money for which is supposed to cover incidents ON the road

I'm just fucking around mate. All bikes are 'dangerous' and ACC is a bloody tricky system that will never be able to make everybody happy.

[Dave-]

brands should start releasing 'special' New Zealand models which have *wink* *wink* 10 HP less *nudge* *nudge* than overseas models, then when tested... "oh your dyno showed 10 more HP than stated? cute, your dyno is different to ours" haha that'd be cool, but unlikely...

[tigertim20]

brands should start releasing 'special' New Zealand models which have *wink* *wink* 10 HP less *nudge* *nudge* than overseas models, then when tested... "oh your dyno showed 10 more HP than stated? cute, your dyno is different to ours" haha that'd be cool, but unlikely...

if you read through the list, I think youll find a few brands have already made those special *nudge nudge wink wink* bikes, and had them added to the list.
have a look and see how many you can pick, I found a few

[chansu]

LAMS is a godsend for me. My FXR150 was permanently garaged with expensive engine issues 10 months after I got it, and 6 months after I became a student again. Now that I'm graduated and working, I can get another bike (not fixing the FXR, don't really like it). I can probably have a full license in under a year, being over 25 and eligible to sit my restricted now, so I don't want an overpriced 250. I'd rather a 400-600 single or twin, which is exactly what the LAMS list is full of.

I wanted to chime in on discussion of a few bikes, since I'm doing some research on the LAMS list anyway. Most discussion I see is around the fastest I4 sports bikes, or the powerful trail bikes, neither of which interest me as much, so I thought I might mention some others.

CB400 Super Four. Someone on here doubted whether it was LAMS legit. I would say it is, given that it is a "Honda CB400" as per the list, and works out at 113 kw/t.
CB500 Twin. This one is a trap, my research puts it at 164 kw/t, yet it is technically on the list. Sucks because I'd love one.
The rest of the Ducatis. My conspiracy theory around these is that Ducati on purpose registered only the 659 with NZTA for LAMS to push learners towards the $10k+ bike. If we are copying the Aus list, why else would they omit the slower Ducatis? I'm hoping someone manages to correct this, because it's criminal that I can't have a 400 Monster.
DRZ400SM. While not specifically mentioned (like so so many bikes, *sigh*), it looks to be a winner. Power- and torque-to-weight are high, since it's so light.
SRX400/600. These are also LAMS winners, super torquey but low enough power to be compliant. Apparently the 600 out-torques the 659 Duc, and at lower revs.
XJR400. If you're okay with 4 cylinders, but want the naked styling, this is pretty close to the line at 147 kw/t.


There has been a lot of talk around "how will the cops tell" and such. I think what's more interesting is the insurance companies' perspective. I really don't want to be caught on a bike that my insurer can argue is not LAMS compliant, and insurers have a bigger incentive to nitpick than police do. This is the main reason that the LAMS list/rules vagueness bothers me. If I'm riding that CB500 Twin and a Ferrari gets tangled in it, am I covered? Would they insure me for a CB500 Twin in the first place?

Props to Ducatilover for actually compiling a list of things to send to NZTA, I may do the same although my knowledge of bikes is limited to what I can find on the intertubes. I also want to second whoever suggested some kind of wiki project, fantastic idea, I'd be keen to chip in.

EDIT: My CB400 info was wrong, most sources list about 52hp, making a 170kg bike 150kW/T flat, though another site had a recent model (2011 I think?) at a whopping 194kg. Also, our list mentions only a 395cc version, which only covers 1978-1981 models. The modern Super Four is 399cc, so technically not allowed :(. Another great bike on the Aus list that isn't on ours. Though I'm confident it will make it onto ours when Honda make it available here, since I read somewhere that it only made it to Aus because of LAMS (NSW list only allows 2008+ Super Fours, probably the first new models introduced).

[Ender EnZed]

DRZ400SM. While not specifically mentioned (like so so many bikes, *sigh*), it looks to be a winner. Power- and torque-to-weight are high, since it's so light.

The DRZ400 is on the list and so is a Suzuki "Super Motard" with 400cc. Given that no such bike exists I'd say it counts as a DRZ400SM.

[chansu]

The DRZ400 is on the list and so is a Suzuki "Super Motard" with 400cc. Given that no such bike exists I'd say it counts as a DRZ400SM.

True, I didn't click about the Super Motard entry, that's good news.

The vagueness here still bothers me, as does the "it's your fault if our list is wrong" clause they have. How can they expect Average Joe Learner to know the power-to-weight ratio of a bike he buys second hand? 145 kw/t is going to feel fast, as will 165. He's not going to know. The only way around this is for NZTA to take responsibility and say "we are confident in this list, if it's on here you can ride it (stock)."

Perhaps the insurance companies will have a much better list internally, and just won't insure me for a bike they think isn't LAMS compliant.

[RDjase]

Including KTM's 525 EXC, and a couple similar.

Wonder what contortions the formula underwent to slide those in there...

Yamaha IT 465 and 490 are on the list too..............

[Ender EnZed]

The vagueness here still bothers me, as does the "it's your fault if our list is wrong" clause they have. How can they expect Average Joe Learner to know the power-to-weight ratio of a bike he buys second hand? 145 kw/t is going to feel fast, as will 165. He's not going to know. The only way around this is for NZTA to take responsibility and say "we are confident in this list, if it's on here you can ride it (stock).

Here's the clause you're referring to:


Please note

Any motorcycle modified in a way that increases its power-to-weight ratio is no longer LAMS-compliant, regardless of whether it appears on the list.

If you are a rider on a learner or restricted motorcycle licence, it is your responsibility to ensure you are riding a LAMS-approved motorcycle, as produced by the manufacturer. If in doubt, seek confirmation from the manufacturer’s agent or dealership.

Failure to comply with the new rules may result in fines and demerit points.



It sounds to me like it's saying that "it is your responsibility to ensure that you're riding a LAMS-approved motorcycle", one that's on the list, "as produced by the manufacturer", that hasn't been modified to increase the power to weight ratio. Which is a bit different from saying not to trust the list.

Which doesn't help much with explaining why there's a bunch of bikes on there with over 200kW/T that have never been produced in any restricted form.

[FJRider]

Perhaps the insurance companies will have a much better list internally, and just won't insure me for a bike they think isn't LAMS compliant.

Why should they have a list ... ???

If you buy a bike ... and want to insure it. They will ... if you pay the premiums they ask for.

The legality of your use of the bike, seldom comes into it.

[chansu]

It sounds to me like it's saying that "it is your responsibility to ensure that you're riding a LAMS-approved motorcycle", one that's on the list, "as produced by the manufacturer", that hasn't been modified to increase the power to weight ratio. Which is a bit different from saying not to trust the list.

Which doesn't help much with explaining why there's a bunch of bikes on there with over 200kW/T that have never been produced in any restricted form.

You're right, I was flipping out a bit over "regardless of whether it appears on this list", which when I read it again is clearly talking about modifications. The room for interpretation on the list itself is worrying though. I wouldn't want to buy something too close to the edge, just in case they update the list in some way to remove it and kill its resale value.

Why is the IT490 being mentioned so much, because of it's 2 stroke powerband? The numbers I can find would put it at 121 kW/T, 10 less than the DRZ400SM.

And what are these 200 kW/T beasts I'm hearing about?

[Asher]

Why should they have a list ... ???

If you buy a bike ... and want to insure it. They will ... if you pay the premiums they ask for.

The legality of your use of the bike, seldom comes into it.

But when it comes to paying out......
All it takes its a crash and the replacing the damaged parts with not OEM parts and you have likely made your bike non compliant.
According to the LAM statement even lightening the bike by 1 gram will make it non-compliant.

[RDjase]

Why is the IT490 being mentioned so much, because of it's 2 stroke powerband? The numbers I can find would put it at 121 kW/T, 10 less than the DRZ400SM.



If you have riden one you would know why, good fun 80's two stroke, wheel stands and pass anything but a petrol station

I doubt there are any left now, all being raced in VMX

[FJRider]

But when it comes to paying out......
All it takes its a crash and the replacing the damaged parts with not OEM parts and you have likely made your bike non compliant.
According to the LAM statement even lightening the bike by 1 gram will make it non-compliant.

Not always ... it will be certainly a question you ask the insurance rep. And read the entire policy (to confirm) before signing it ...

Any "non complient" alterations to a bike you do ... would have to be obvious and extreme to attract the attention of plod in the first place. (in which case ... you keep a low profile)

[Ender EnZed]

Why is the IT490 being mentioned so much, because of it's 2 stroke powerband? The numbers I can find would put it at 121 kW/T, 10 less than the DRZ400SM.

And what are these 200 kW/T beasts I'm hearing about?

Yeah, I'd never looked but it seems Yamaha claimed 46hp for the IT465 (http://www.bikez.com/motorcycles/yamaha_it465_1981.php) and then 35hp for the IT490 (http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/yamaha/yamaha_it490.htm) that replaced it. Strange. My understanding was that most of them had more like 60hp at the rear wheel. It's not very relevant for LAMS context anyway because it'd be a serious mission get a road legal one if you won Lotto tonight anyway.

As for the others, well the Husaberg FS650e has a little over 45kW and a manufacturers specified weight of 112kg. With a 90kg rider that's 225kW per tonne, a full 50% over the limit. I can't be bothered checking the numbers but it wouldn't surprise me if almost all the 'Bergs on the list were over 150kW/T. Along with most of the KTMs. A 525EXC (http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/dirt-bikes/auction-476845856.htm) would definitely be over 200kW/T and so would Yamaha's WR450F (http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/yamaha/yamaha_wr450f%2003.htm).

[chansu]

Not always ... it will be certainly a question you ask the insurance rep. And read the entire policy (to confirm) before signing it ...

Any "non complient" alterations to a bike you do ... would have to be obvious and extreme to attract the attention of plod in the first place. (in which case ... you keep a low profile)

In the AMI one it says you aren't covered if you are riding outside your license conditions.


a. There is no cover if your motor cycle is being ridden by or in the charge of any person who:
i is not legally allowed to ride in New Zealand, or
ii is not riding according to the conditions of his or her driver licence.

Riding a bike that is not LAMS compliant would be outside your license conditions. So if they are complete bastards (and of course they are) they would insure your bike, no worries, and then not pay out when you crash. It depends how they check LAMS compliance. If they have their own information which is better than what's published on the NZTA list, they could sting you when you have a bike that technically is on the list. Because:


LAMS will allow Class 6 learner and restricted licence holders to ride motorcycles:
- with a maximum power-to-weight ratio of 150 kilowatts per tonne AND
- an upper engine capacity of 660cc AND
- that are published on the LAMS-approved list on the NZTA website
(from the FAQ here (http://www.nzta.govt.nz/licence/getting/docs/lams-faqs.pdf))

Thinking from a legal standpoint, it is possible to satisfy the last two criteria and not the first one.

[FJRider]

... the acc component money for which is supposed to cover incidents ON the road

There is NO distinction where the ACC levy covers ... on or off the road.

The ACC component is in motorcycle Licencing ... thus is attached to all road legal bikes. It matters little where you have your accident. ACC will cover you in the event you have an accident ... anywhere. The ACC levy in the licencing process ... is just them taking money, from where they can ... under current ledgislation. The levy is not the only source of revenue for ACC.

[Dave-]

should be interesting to see how they go about testing if your bike is lams comliant, if take off the logo what cop is going to know the difference between a branded muffler and a stock one?

but....what's the market for aftermarket exhausts that look a lot like stock ones? haha

[FJRider]

In the AMI one it says you aren't covered if you are riding outside your license conditions.


If you are with AMI ... bugger. But I would read up and check other companys policys ...

[chansu]

If you are with AMI ... bugger. But I would read up and check other companys policys ...

I'll have to do that. Though I'd be shocked if anyone would still cover you if you were doing something illegal.

[FJRider]

should be interesting to see how they go about testing if your bike is lams comliant, if take off the logo what cop is going to know the difference between a branded muffler and a stock one?

Apart from the odd cop that came down in the last shower ... (still a few about) the aftermarket companies go to great effort to make them look anything BUT standard. Standard exaust systems have the manufacturers name stamped onto them ... with the part number.


but....what's the market for aftermarket exhausts that look a lot like stock ones? haha

Non existent ... the reason for aftermarket stuff is for performance AND "different" look to standard.

[chansu]

Yeah, I'd never looked but it seems Yamaha claimed 46hp for the IT465 (http://www.bikez.com/motorcycles/yamaha_it465_1981.php) and then 35hp for the IT490 (http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/yamaha/yamaha_it490.htm) that replaced it. Strange. My understanding was that most of them had more like 60hp at the rear wheel. It's not very relevant for LAMS context anyway because it'd be a serious mission get a road legal one if you won Lotto tonight anyway.

As for the others, well the Husaberg FS650e has a little over 45kW and a manufacturers specified weight of 112kg. With a 90kg rider that's 225kW per tonne, a full 50% over the limit. I can't be bothered checking the numbers but it wouldn't surprise me if almost all the 'Bergs on the list were over 150kW/T. Along with most of the KTMs. A 525EXC (http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/dirt-bikes/auction-476845856.htm) would definitely be over 200kW/T and so would Yamaha's WR450F (http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/yamaha/yamaha_wr450f%2003.htm).

Interesting. It's almost like they didn't check the offroad bikes at all. Or perhaps the supplied manufacturer figures were on the low side. The usual bike spec sites seem to not list the HP of many offroad bikes as though it's hard to find that info.

[Ender EnZed]

Interesting. It's almost like they didn't check the offroad bikes at all. Or perhaps the supplied manufacturer figures were on the low side. The usual bike spec sites seem to not list the HP of many offroad bikes as though it's hard to find that info.

Manufacturers often don't publish power figures for off road bikes (and cruisers) so it'd be interesting to know what figures governments are using.

There was a thread a while ago (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/137516-Aprilia-SXV-4-5?highlight=sxv+5.5) about an Aussie learner who bought an Aprilia SXV450 as a first bike off their LAMS list. There was no indication that it was restricted in any way. The Australian LAMS list also includes the SXV550 which with 70hp and 122kg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aprilia_RXV/SXV) is damn near 250kW/T.

[chansu]

Manufacturers often don't publish power figures for off road bikes (and cruisers) so it'd be interesting to know what figures governments are using.

There was a thread a while ago (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/137516-Aprilia-SXV-4-5?highlight=sxv+5.5) about an Aussie learner who bought an Aprilia SXV450 as a first bike off their LAMS list. There was no indication that it was restricted in any way. The Australian LAMS list also includes the SXV550 which with 70hp and 122kg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aprilia_RXV/SXV) is damn near 250kW/T.

Dear god. At least NZTA are giving the impression of wanting to continually update the list. I only see this happening when new bikes are introduced though, which our Ducati situation hints at.

[Gremlin]

The Husaberg FS650 and Aprilia SXV550 are certainly not tame learner toys... The SXV550 was a bloody hooligan toy when I took it overnight. :innocent:


Non existent ... the reason for aftermarket stuff is for performance AND "different" look to standard.
Speak for yourself... I have a set of cans on the Hornet that you'd be hard pressed to know are not stock. The heat shields are in place etc.

[Shesti]

They tried to introduce a system that's working in Europe...but the difference is that somebody that don't know shit about bikes has made this list.
A lot of bikes on the list are too powerful for a beginner.
Some examples:

Husaberg:
ALL on the list
Extremes:
TE300 2 stroke (probably healthy 60hp at the wheel with 100kg of weight)
FS650C & E - more than 65hp or so at the wheel with 112kg of weight

KTM:
probably ALL on the list
Extremes:
EXC300 - same as Husaberg TE300
EXC525 - very similar power/weight ratio as one above

Yamaha:
A lot on the list,
Extremes:
WR450F - healthy 60hp with 120-ish kilos

The list goes on and on...


And 204hp/1000kg is too much for learners legal bike.

In Europe for example it is allowed to ride Suzuki SV650, but variant with 34hp, which brings you to 34hp / 165kg bike + 75 average rider = 240kg
This brings us to 141hp/tone, actually, I think the rules there are 100kw/136hp per 1000kg.

150-ish kw per tone is too much for a learner, and this law (in this driving conditions) will definitely increase death and crash rate among young motorcyclists.


Just mu 2 cents...

[p.dath]

And 204hp/1000kg is too much for learners legal bike.


I think that is a reasonable power limit. What do you think the power limit should be then?

Also not that the "weight" part of the equation includes the weight of an "average" rider. From memory I think this is 80kg.

[Leed]

where do we buy these mythical "PROHIBITED" 250's anyway - they havent manufactured them for over 15 years (you cant include the RS)
the only ones you can find in NZ are likely dogs that are non road legal (ex-raced) versions from around 1992 anyway

the Transport Agency can't even do math on the specs

for example.... lets import an RGV from Japan today (same as 1988-1993 or any time period) - because I cant find one in NZ (eg. Kawasaki KR-1)
manufacturer's quoted power output 45PS (approx 34kW), dry weight 139kg (excluding any fuel approx 14kg)
weight + rider = 139+90 = 229kg (per tonne factor = 1000/229) = 4.37
specific power output (manufacturer) = 34kW * 4.37

THEREFORE power output per tonne = 148.5 kW/tonne !!! < 150 kW/tonne !!!

this is less than their blanket banning rule of the prohibited models - some pencil pusher flicked though an old PB issue and became their 'expert consultant'

ohh but an RVF400 is okay, but where is the ZXR400 in the list (ZZR400) where is all the other 400's which are sensible
agree with SHESTI that there's several on the list that are probably over their rule but are learner approved

WHY BAN SOMETHING YOU CAN'T PURCHASE - ANYONE KNOW OF A KR-1 FOR SALE !! how long ago was even a single one seen on Tardme

[Asher]

where do we buy these mythical "PROHIBITED" 250's anyway - they havent manufactured them for over 15 years (you cant include the RS)
the only ones you can find in NZ are likely dogs that are non road legal (ex-raced) versions from around 1992 anyway

the Transport Agency can't even do math on the specs

eg. lets import an RGV from Japan today
power output 45PS (approx 34kW), dry weight 139kg (excluding any fuel approx 14kg)
weight + rider = 139+90 = 229kg (per tonne factor = 1000/229) = 4.37
specific power output (manufacturer) = 34kW * 4.37

THEREFORE power output per tonne = 148.5 kW/tonne !!! < 150 kW/tonne !!!

this is less than their blanket banning rule of the prohibited models - some pencil pusher flicked though an old PB issue and became their 'expert consultant'

ohh but an RVF400 is okay, but where is the ZXR400 in the list (ZZR400) where is all the other 400's which are sensible
agree with SHESTI that there's several on the list that are probably over their rule but are learner approved

WHY BAN SOMETHING YOU CAN'T PURCHASE - ANYONE KNOW OF A KR-1 FOR SALE !! - havent seen a new one since 1989

Yes they said because of increases in technology they needed to change the laws yet only ban 20 year old bikes :wacko:

The jap rgv's had 45hp but the unrestricted models for other markets had around 62hp or 46kw so would make it 201kw/t

[Leed]

Beaurocracy gone wrong...

the current state of high power motorcyles (increase in power outputs) has happened in the 600-1000cc area (since ~1997) NOT LEARNER BIKES... eg...
..... 1980 approx 380kW/tonne
..... 2012 approx 740+ kw/tonne
^^^ these are FULL license bikes NOT learner 250's (where there has been zero advance in over 20 years)
it's the big bikes that are out of whack - how is it sensible to graduate from a Ninja250 to a ZX-10?

if you are going to make a license jump to a 740+ kW/tonne motorcyle (when you achieve a Full license),
THEN you may as well learn on something that is in excess of > 200kW/tonne !

the 250cc technological improvements progressed no further than what was availbale in 1989 - the NZTA claims make it sound like these 250's are somehow modern and magical (they imply dangerous)

but all of the 250's that will ever come into NZ from JAPAN are 45PS (~34kW... 148kW/tonne (rider)) so are below the set maximum limits
the fact is they have made a rule that is 20 years out of date - like men carrying flags in front of automobiles
many of us have had the oppurtunity to learn on these PROHIBITED MODELS - and are still around to prove it

THIS and the fact so few are for sale, means the caviat of this rule is a mostly pointless...
a list of approved bikes of large capacity is however good idea (step foward) for learner riders (and the sales industry !)

RGV are proven slower than KR-1S :apint: so RGV shouldnt be banned :killingme

[Asher]

While i dont disagree with them allowing learners have a greater choice of bikes (except for not allowing 2 strokes :shake::shake:), their reasoning doesnt make much sense at all.

[MarkW]

In the mid 1990's there was an organisation of Motorcycle Riding Schools in New Zealand and we went to the Ministry of Transport (as it was in those days) and suggested a number of practical improvements to the Licensing system for motorcyclists. One of the suggestions was that a kilowatt per kilogram limit made more sense than a straight cc limit. And the 150kw per 1000kg was what we suggested - in 1996.

Finally, 16 years after the suggestion was made it is actually going to happen - and as it has sat in Wellington for 16 years is it any wonder that the list includes motorcycles that haven't been available for a couple of decades.

The LAMS list isn't perfect by a long shot - but it does give more flexibility than what we currently have in place. So, accept it and improve it. Be CONstructive rather than DEstructive.

[george formby]

In the mid 1990's there was an organisation of Motorcycle Riding Schools in New Zealand and we went to the Ministry of Transport (as it was in those days) and suggested a number of practical improvements to the Licensing system for motorcyclists. One of the suggestions was that a kilowatt per kilogram limit made more sense than a straight cc limit. And the 150kw per 1000kg was what we suggested - in 1996.

Finally, 16 years after the suggestion was made it is actually going to happen - and as it has sat in Wellington for 16 years is it any wonder that the list includes motorcycles that haven't been available for a couple of decades.

The LAMS list isn't perfect by a long shot - but it does give more flexibility than what we currently have in place. So, accept it and improve it. Be CONstructive rather than DEstructive.

They must have been having a clean out, and that explains why I can get Jas an IT 490. Not many on trade me, sadly.

[Leed]

In the mid 1990's there was an organisation of Motorcycle Riding Schools in New Zealand and WE went to the Ministry of Transport ....

...usual story of 'consultant' not being the same thing as 'expert'.

FUNNY THING IS.... THE 'INSTRUCTOR' AT THE TIME (I sat) COULD NOT COMPLETE THE HANDLING SKILLS TEST on the 'PROHIBITED BIKE' ...
this happened to be because of a limited steering lock - so suitability has nothing to do with power output being inappropriate and riding experience didnt matter here either
Ergonomics is a big factor in suitability for learners (a bit harder to quantify a formula for though, eh?)

HOW DOES a RIDER get PILLION CARRYING EXPERIENCE ANYWAY?
this is, I feel, is a critical part of a obtaining a full license and has everything to do with SAFETY - where specific power outputs of extinct models has NOTHING to do with road safety AND NEVER DID

If you do own a PROHIBITED learner bike NOW (before 1 October 2012), you can pay some money to get an exemption (DL4 Application For An Exemption) - so long as you can say how long you might be on it (time limited), and specify what part of the law is unfair to your situation - GO FIGURE

the approved learner list contains...
400 BROS,
NT650V Revere,
NTV650V Deauville
....BLAH BLAH they will make this list up as they need, when they need (so much detail on this one engine variant for such few bikes in the overall list)...
there's no NT650 (BROS) on the APPROVED LIST.... you get my drift - THEY ARE IDIOTS pure and simple (miss the base model but specify variants)

ultimately TAX PAYERS paid money that the government has wasted to have that partial list made - and thats your 16 and more years of polishing a turd
They will bend and re-invent legislation but this wont stop old people dying on modern bikes
There was a time (~1985) when you got your full license in the mail after 30 days
My guess(es) is, there are the same if not more motorcycle deaths NOW (per annum), than back then - PROGRESS! but I'm sure nothing to do with the LEARNERS situation

[ants67]

i cant get my head around how ltsa is doing its calculations as an rvf400 honda weighs 165 kgs dry and is around 59hp which when all said and done with fuel and oil etc and rider 90kgs works out to be around 170kw per ton my fz400r is very much the same in spec no matter how many times i do the calculations i cant get it down to 150kw per ton am i missing something or am i doing the calculation wrong . if any one can clear this up would be a great help cheers

[p.dath]

i cant get my head around how ltsa is doing its calculations as an rvf400 honda weighs 165 kgs dry and is around 59hp which when all said and done with fuel and oil etc and rider 90kgs works out to be around 170kw per ton my fz400r is very much the same in spec no matter how many times i do the calculations i cant get it down to 150kw per ton am i missing something or am i doing the calculation wrong . if any one can clear this up would be a great help cheers

According to Wikipedia, the "peak" power output of the rvf400 is 53hp (about about 39.5kw). So if it was 255kg all up with rider, that would make it 154 kw/tonne. If they used a figure with slightly less power, or slightly more weight, then it would pass.

Or they could have used a little bit of discretion, and said it is so close to the limit, and the chance of it being ridden continously at "peak power" was so remote, that practically it would be contiously below 150 kw/tonne the entire time it was on the road.

[ants67]

According to Wikipedia, the "peak" power output of the rvf400 is 53hp (about about 39.5kw). So if it was 255kg all up with rider, that would make it 154 kw/tonne. If they used a figure with slightly less power, or slightly more weight, then it would pass.

Or they could have used a little bit of discretion, and said it is so close to the limit, and the chance of it being ridden continously at "peak power" was so remote, that practically it would be contiously below 150 kw/tonne the entire time it was on the road.

so before i make an application to appear on lams list i should go looking for the heavyist least powerful model varient of my fz that was avaliable for sale somewhere in the world and supply ltsa with those specs?

[p.dath]

so before i make an application to appear on lams list i should go looking for the heavyist least powerful model varient of my fz that was avaliable for sale somewhere in the world and supply ltsa with those specs?

Unless your a manufacturer you can't really make an application, as they only accept the "numbers" from manufacurers.

[pzkpfw]

First one I've noticed on the Suzuki site: http://www.suzuki.co.nz/Motorcycle/Street/GSX650FU+LAMS/

I like how the model code ends in "FU".

[LankyBastard]

First one I've noticed on the Suzuki site: http://www.suzuki.co.nz/Motorcycle/Street/GSX650FU+LAMS/

I like how the model code ends in "FU".

Love how that one is $15k, but you can get a standard one in Holshot for around $11k. Go figure. :brick:

[Captain_Salty]

241kg, is that accurate?

[Glowerss]

241kg, is that accurate?

All full of liquids? Yep. It's a heavy as bike for reasons I still don't understand. Similar shit (er6f and the fz6r) are like 50kg less for basically the same bike. Dunno, I wouldn't want to learn on something with fairings and that fucking heavy though. You'd almost certainly drop that at some stage.

[The Singing Chef]

But when it comes to paying out......
All it takes its a crash and the replacing the damaged parts with not OEM parts and you have likely made your bike non compliant.
According to the LAM statement even lightening the bike by 1 gram will make it non-compliant.

I have emailed NZTA about the whole modifying/weight issue and will see what their response is.

[TygerTung]

Yes I thought that there were some odd bikes on that list too.

KTM EXC300, that has 56 HP, and is only 104 kg, and that is a hell of a lot faster than the fastest 250 2 stroke which is the KR-1S.

Never mind, that's what the government wants to do, it will do it.

[scott411]

Yes I thought that there were some odd bikes on that list too.

KTM EXC300, that has 56 HP, and is only 104 kg, and that is a hell of a lot faster than the fastest 250 2 stroke which is the KR-1S.

Never mind, that's what the government wants to do, it will do it.

it shows the problem with the list, the Australians got restrickted ones of these and they met the test, we never have, (along with a heap of bikes from nearly every manuafacturer)

in Australia the Lams approved bike have a different rego sticker, so the buyer, the cop and the dealer all know what it is, god knows how anyone is ment to know over here,

[FJRider]

in Australia the Lams approved bike have a different rego sticker, so the buyer, the cop and the dealer all know what it is, god knows how anyone is ment to know over here,

When the rego number is radioed into Com's (showing make, model, and capacity) ... the registered owner may come up ... and if shown as a learner/restricted, Com's will confirm if it is (or isn't) on the list. ;)

Little or no change to the procedure to identify unlicenced, or incorrectly licenced riders .... that is in place now. :whistle:

The onus will be on the rider to ride a LAM's approved motorcycle, if they hold a learner/restriced licence. :dodge:

If you know it isn't on the list ... or not sure ... :argh:

But are happy to risk it ... :2thumbsup

[p.dath]

it shows the problem with the list, the Australians got restrickted ones of these and they met the test, we never have, (along with a heap of bikes from nearly every manuafacturer)

in Australia the Lams approved bike have a different rego sticker, so the buyer, the cop and the dealer all know what it is, god knows how anyone is ment to know over here,

The NZ rego stickers will also have LAMS on them for approved motorbikes, so you can tell at the roadside what is and is not approved.

[davereid]

The NZ rego stickers will also have LAMS on them for approved motorbikes, so you can tell at the roadside what is and is not approved.

How will the NZTA know if a bike should have a LAMS sticker or not ?

They don't record weight or power.

They cant even get the list remotely right - I doubt they could identify which bikes would comply and which would not.

[scott411]

The NZ rego stickers will also have LAMS on them for approved motorbikes, so you can tell at the roadside what is and is not approved.

i have not seen this anywhere, but i hope its true, and I hope the procedure to get used bikes on it is easy to follow,


How will the NZTA know if a bike should have a LAMS sticker or not ?

They don't record weight or power.

They cant even get the list remotely right - I doubt they could identify which bikes would comply and which would not.

exactly the point,

[Lozza2442]

Am I the only one that read this all and didn't understand any of it??

[ducatilover]

Am I the only one that read this all and didn't understand any of it??
What are you finding unclear?
Buy a really fast bike and don't stop

[Lozza2442]

What are you finding unclear?
Buy a really fast bike and don't stop

Might have to do with the fact that I flunked science/didn't pay attention in math for the equations. :brick:
I'll just wait till it happens and then ask one of you if the bike I want at the time on trademe is a-ok. haha :lol:

Till then I'll just stand over here *walks out door* and twirl my hair/paint my nails/giggle.

[ducatilover]

Might have to do with the fact that I flunked science/didn't pay attention in math for the equations. :brick:
I'll just wait till it happens and then ask one of you if the bike I want at the time on trademe is a-ok. haha :lol:

Till then I'll just stand over here *walks out door* and twirl my hair/paint my nails/giggle.
If it's on the list you'll be fine :D otherwise so that nail painting, hair twirling when you get pulled over ;)

[Lozza2442]

otherwise so that nail painting, hair twirling when you get pulled over ;)
This ^

Never had a ticket yet. ;)

[Glowerss]

I don't suppose anyone know where you can find "official manufacturer specs" on bikes? Particularly things like Japanese specific imports? Looks like people can apply to have bikes added onto the LAMS list. Simply a matter of finding the official specs, frame numbers, and then sending in an easy as application. There's a few bikes out there like the CB400 superfour and SV400 that should be on the list, but struggling to find "official" specs on them.

[tigertim20]

I don't suppose anyone know where you can find "official manufacturer specs" on bikes? Particularly things like Japanese specific imports? Looks like people can apply to have bikes added onto the LAMS list. Simply a matter of finding the official specs, frame numbers, and then sending in an easy as application. There's a few bikes out there like the CB400 superfour and SV400 that should be on the list, but struggling to find "official" specs on them.

try contacting the NZ agent for the brand in question.

[nzspokes]

Get 250 Hornet. Sorted.

[Glowerss]

try contacting the NZ agent for the brand in question.

Will give that a shot. Cheers.

[nzspokes]

Hm, seems like our 650 hyo is lams approved.

[Glowerss]

Hm, seems like our 650 hyo is lams approved.

I believe that's only the restricted Hyo 650. Same with the SV650U or whatever it is and a couple of other ones. I don't think they'd let an 80bhp bike onto the list. I mean I know it's a hyo but still!

[nzspokes]

I believe that's only the restricted Hyo 650. Same with the SV650U or whatever it is and a couple of other ones. I don't think they'd let an 80bhp bike onto the list. I mean I know it's a hyo but still!

If ours is 80hp i will eat its seat.

[Glowerss]

If ours is 80hp i will eat its seat.

HAHAHA Hyosung quotes it at 79 BHP. Nobody said they had to be honest! :lol:

Either way its the GT650Ls that are approved, which are restricted to, well fuck knows how much, but its a difference in 0-100 times of 5seconds for the normal 650 and 8 and a bit for the restricted.

[nzspokes]

HAHAHA Hyosung quotes it at 79 BHP. Nobody said they had to be honest! :lol:

Either way its the GT650Ls that are approved, which are restricted to, well fuck knows how much, but its a difference in 0-100 times of 5seconds for the normal 650 and 8 and a bit for the restricted.

How do you tell if its restricted? Had wondered that as its slow.

[Glowerss]

How do you tell if its restricted? Had wondered that as its slow.

Rego tag would most likely say GT650L or GT650RL. I don't know that NZ has any of the restricted hyobags yet. Mostly just in OZ at the moment. Only LAMS restricted bikes I've seen around are those gsx650FU faired bandit things going for ridiculous markups.

[Asher]

Does anyone know yet how they are going to identify the LAMS bikes? like different rego colour? or will it be down to the cops to know the list of by heart? If thats true i wonder how many coppers know a 2 stroke when they see one.

[ducatilover]

How do you tell if its restricted? Had wondered that as its slow.
Find a long road, if it goes faster than 180km/h, it's not restricted. The restricted ones (that we didn't get) are fucking slow

[davereid]

Does anyone know yet how they are going to identify the LAMS bikes? like different rego colour? or will it be down to the cops to know the list of by heart? If thats true i wonder how many coppers know a 2 stroke when they see one.

Page 5 of this http://www.nzta.govt.nz/consultation/driver-licensing-amendment-2011/docs/q-and-a.pdf document says the LAMS status will be on the licence label.

But I doubt the NZTA have any idea which bikes should be LAMs and which should not. They have never done a very good job of tracking vehicles, for example they thought my BMW K100 was 100cc, and they thought my Nissan Pathfinder was a diesel.

I simply don't belive they have any way of determining a motorcycles exact model and working out if it is LAMs compliant or not.

Anyway LAMs starts in a week. We would all have been sent our shiny new LAMs labels if they exist.

The police will have to try and figure that out on the side of the road.

[p.dath]

...
Anyway LAMs starts in a week. We would all have been sent our shiny new LAMs labels if they exist.

The police will have to try and figure that out on the side of the road.

I'll guess they'll be using their discretion. It it has a label then they'll probably assume it is LAMs compliant. If it is obviously 250cc or smaller than I imagine it'll probably be ok as well for the moment.

But if it is appears to exceed the LAMs requirements then and you don't have a rego label with LAMs on it you should expect some problems.

[FJRider]

I'll guess they'll be using their discretion. It it has a label then they'll probably assume it is LAMs compliant. If it is obviously 250cc or smaller than I imagine it'll probably be ok as well for the moment.

But if it is appears to exceed the LAMs requirements then and you don't have a rego label with LAMs on it you should expect some problems.

Maybe ... They'll just leave it up to you to prove it IS on the list. They have already stated, that not knowing it isn't on the list ... is no excuse. Have a copy of the list with you may pay dividends... well get you off a ticket anyway.

[rastuscat]

The Popo bosses went to NZTA with a proposal for a notification on the license label, but it didn't get off the ground. Too hard to administer, they said.

The Popos bosses are trying to get a notification on the vehicle database, so they can doa reg check, and it also tells them whether the bike is LAMS approved or not.

Watch this space. I reckon the best that we can do on 1 October is carry a print of the list from the NZTA website. Remember that most cops aren't bike enthusiasts, to potentially don't know the difference between the good, bad and awful bikes on and off the list.

[Glowerss]

The Popo bosses went to NZTA with a proposal for a notification on the license label, but it didn't get off the ground. Too hard to administer, they said.

The Popos bosses are trying to get a notification on the vehicle database, so they can doa reg check, and it also tells them whether the bike is LAMS approved or not.

Watch this space. I reckon the best that we can do on 1 October is carry a print of the list from the NZTA website. Remember that most cops aren't bike enthusiasts, to potentially don't know the difference between the good, bad and awful bikes on and off the list.

So the gist of things is, they rewrote the learner bike laws without any thought whatsoever to how you guys were going to enforce it? That's awfully kind of them.

"Nah officer, when they put RVF on that list they really meant to put VFR. It's just a typo!" :lol:

[Tigadee]

"But officer, it says 660cc and below, so that CBR600 is allowed..."

[KIPS powervalve]

Does anyone else remember when the RG 250's came out (Grey motor, with power valves), in the industry, they where nicknamed "kid killers"

I would be VERY surprised if an SV650 would be learner approved in NZ....(there is of course a race class for these in this country, that should set alarm bells ringing.)

The 250 rule is better (excluding RGV and NSR's and such like)

Shit, the rest of the world has to make do with 125's at best for learners.

There is a racing class for Hyosungs too, don't make 'em fast. Or reliable. Does make a good trash machine though.

[Asher]

The Popo bosses went to NZTA with a proposal for a notification on the license label, but it didn't get off the ground. Too hard to administer, they said.

The Popos bosses are trying to get a notification on the vehicle database, so they can doa reg check, and it also tells them whether the bike is LAMS approved or not.

Watch this space. I reckon the best that we can do on 1 October is carry a print of the list from the NZTA website. Remember that most cops aren't bike enthusiasts, to potentially don't know the difference between the good, bad and awful bikes on and off the list.

So when i go for an exemption how will they know i have it? a hand written note from my mum?

[Gremlin]

So when i go for an exemption how will they know i have it? a hand written note from my mum?
Exemptions are a different matter. If it's the same as the previous system, you receive a letter authorising you to any applicable new limit. This letter must be carried at all times and becomes a condition like any other on your licence. I carried certified copies, keeping the original safe.

However, it should be noted that it's unlikely exemptions will be approved much, as this is what LAMS helps to eliminate in the most part. I would think it would only be for existing motorcycles.

[nzbiker86]

I currently ride a ninja 250. Due to the changes coming in I don't really want to wait another 18 months to upgrade, the ninja is a little small and uncomfortable for my height. What would be your pick from the list of new LAMS approved bikes?

Cheers

[swtfa]

"The CBTA will be an alternative to the standard testing regime. Successful completion of CBTA
in the learner stage will remove the requirement to have to sit the motorcycle restricted test to
enter the restricted licence stage. Successful completion of an advanced CBTA will reduce the
minimum time required to be spent on a restricted licence from 18 months to 12 months and
will remove the requirement to have to sit the full motorcycle licence test to progress to a full
motorcycle licence."

I have made enquiries regarding "CBTA" (in Hawkes Bay)and no one seems to know what I am talking about...
Is this another Auckland thing? :(

[nzbiker86]

I looked into this. It is stating on the website that it wont come into play until late 2013. I reckon it will be similar to the UK CBTA. I had my test booked a couple of months ago, but had to cancel. How I regret that decision!

Oh well, Hopefully the CBTA will be available in 12 months time, I would actually prefer to do a skills assessment than a test.

[swtfa]

I looked into this. It is stating on the website that it wont come into play until late 2013. I reckon it will be similar to the UK CBTA. I had my test booked a couple of months ago, but had to cancel. How I regret that decision!

Oh well, Hopefully the CBTA will be available in 12 months time, I would actually prefer to do a skills assessment than a test.

Thanks for that and ditto :)

[GrayWolf]

Find a long road, if it goes faster than 180km/h, it's not restricted. The restricted ones (that we didn't get) are fucking slow

180k's or 115mph isnt fuckin slow for a learner.. geeebus H christos, its as fast as the 'old brit 650's'......................

[ducatilover]

180k's or 115mph isnt fuckin slow for a learner.. geeebus H christos, its as fast as the 'old brit 650's'......................
Agreed, but it'll take about four years to get there and a restricted 650 is making less peak hp than any of the 4 cyl 250s you can buy, the TV250 and the RVF400 (which really is bloody ridiculous for a learner bike...)

[Glowerss]

180k's or 115mph isnt fuckin slow for a learner.. geeebus H christos, its as fast as the 'old brit 650's'......................

The restricted hyobags will be lucky to do 140 or 150kph actual. They're only marginally faster then the 250hyobags. Some guy was doing comparos between the unrestricted 650s and the restricted ones. Resticted was doing 0-100kph in something like 8.5 seconds. Pretty sure 250 ninjas can do that in 7 seconds. The current batch of IL4 250s will do that a fuck of a lot quicker.

No need to get your panties all in a twist :P The only "interesting" bikes on the LAMS list are ones that nobody can find anymore. Nothing on the LAMS list is realistically more powerful then what we already have. The biggest advantage is more in the full sized frame department.

[Glowerss]

Agreed, but it'll take about four years to get there and a restricted 650 is making less peak hp than any of the 4 cyl 250s you can buy, the TV250 and the RVF400 (which really is bloody ridiculous for a learner bike...)

Assuming you can find an RVF400. I've been offhandidly shopping the last 6-8 months. Lots of VFRs around, Haven't seen a single RVF that I can remember. Though you're not wrong about them being ridiculous for a learner bike, but the odds of somebody buying their first bike finding an RVF for sale that's affordable I would assume would be quite low. And if they do manage to find one for sale at the exact time theyre shopping and dont do any research as to what it is, well, then they probably deserve the inevitable off. Darwinism at work!

[ducatilover]

Assuming you can find an RVF400. I've been offhandidly shopping the last 6-8 months. Lots of VFRs around, Haven't seen a single RVF that I can remember. Though you're not wrong about them being ridiculous for a learner bike, but the odds of somebody buying their first bike finding an RVF for sale that's affordable I would assume would be quite low. And if they do manage to find one for sale at the exact time theyre shopping and dont do any research as to what it is, well, then they probably deserve the inevitable off. Darwinism at work!
Quite right there, but, if one was a bit savvy they could be shelling out similar moolah on an RVF instead of a restricted Hyoslut or new GT250, EX250 etc. IMO it's now the "ultimate" learner bike, if only I had the dosh for one!

I'll stick to building ridiculous heaps of crap instead :2thumbsup

[Glowerss]

Quite right there, but, if one was a bit savvy they could be shelling out similar moolah on an RVF instead of a restricted Hyoslut or new GT250, EX250 etc. IMO it's now the "ultimate" learner bike, if only I had the dosh for one!

I'll stick to building ridiculous heaps of crap instead :2thumbsup

You're right, but one would think the price would rise as a consequence. Supply and demand and all that. And christ, you sure do know how to make an otherwise ordinary bike super fucking ugly. I commend you sir.

[p.dath]

"The CBTA will be an alternative to the standard testing regime. Successful completion of CBTA
in the learner stage will remove the requirement to have to sit the motorcycle restricted test to
enter the restricted licence stage. Successful completion of an advanced CBTA will reduce the
minimum time required to be spent on a restricted licence from 18 months to 12 months and
will remove the requirement to have to sit the full motorcycle licence test to progress to a full
motorcycle licence."

I have made enquiries regarding "CBTA" (in Hawkes Bay)and no one seems to know what I am talking about...
Is this another Auckland thing? :(

There are no approved CBTA courses anywhere in NZ. Basically someone has to come up with a course, and then pay to get it certified. As there isn't much money in motorcycle training, don't expect anything to happen quickly.

Perhaps the best option would be to get something like the UK AIM scheme certified here.

[rastuscat]

So the gist of things is, they rewrote the learner bike laws without any thought whatsoever to how you guys were going to enforce it? That's awfully kind of them.

Add it to the list of hard to enforce laws that exist. So many things look like good ideas for the people writing them, but translate very differently to those standing at the roadside having the discussion with the motorist.

[ducatilover]

And christ, you sure do know how to make an otherwise ordinary bike super fucking ugly. I commend you sir.
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[rastuscat]

So the gist of things is, they rewrote the learner bike laws without any thought whatsoever to how you guys were going to enforce it? That's awfully kind of them.

Sorry to requote, just thought to expand on what I said.

How can I tell, at the roadside, the difference between a restricted and an unrestricted moped? One's a legal moped, unless it's over 2 kw, otherwise it's a motorcycle. It's impossible to roadside test it.

And the power assisted pedal cycle thing is even worse. How can I prove that a mountain bike with a motor is in excess of 300 watts?

At least with this LAMS legislation they have taken out the need for a roadside dyno. It's an attempt, but still challenging to enforce.

Most cops only know how to identify a motorcycle by the fact that it has 2 wheels. Anything more complex, like a brand or model, becomes challenging. They're going to rely on what is printed on the licence label, and what is on the computer.

Trouble is, I had a Piaggio Runner a few years back, 2-stroke beastly step through. On the reg label it was shown as a Piaggio, on the computer it was a Piaggio, but it was badged as a Gilera Runner. Now, you and I know that these are the same thing, but the average cop is going to think immediately that I'd taken the plate from another bike. It's not just that bike that's the issue, this just highlights the problems with vehicle identification.

Have poften thought about going back to one of them. It was a cool wee bike that could out-accelerate most boy racers.

[Gremlin]

Perhaps the best option would be to get something like the UK AIM scheme certified here.
The IAM system is here (and one of the few countries to have it outside the UK), but not certified (and I would imagine it would be hard to). It's all volunteer run (which also goes back to the costs and money)...

[Glowerss]

Turns out, applying for a bike to be put on the LAMS list is both extremely quick and fairly easily.

I asked Suzuki NZ for official specs on the SV400s. They came back saying that actually NZTA goes to the manufacturers directly, and that you simply need to apply via filling out this form here.http://www.nzta.govt.nz/licence/getting/docs/lams-applications.pdf

Basically, you just need to print/sign/scan the form back onto your computer, fill out the model and frame numbers/specs, and then simply email it in to the website provided. I emailed it in late last night, and had an answer to my submission by 1pm today. Wasn't the answer I was looking for! :rolleyes: but it was an astonishing turn around time. Less then 12 hours. Didn't take me more then 10 minutes to submit it in either.

So all of you in the "OMG how could they miss this bike!!!" crowd, go crazy. It's incredibly easy to submit.

A word of caution though, as you would expect, they are sticking to the absolute letter of the law. Even 1 kw over (as seen below) and it's no joy. I suppose they have too, but gutted all the same!


"Thank you for your application to have the Suzuki SV400 & 400S added to the approved LAMS list.

From the figures that you have provided, which I have also had verified by Suzuki NZ, these models exceed the power to weight limit for the LAMS requirements and are not considered as LAMS compliant

Power kW = 39 Tare weight + 90 kg = 257 kw per tonne = 151.75


Formula Used to determine kw per tonne:

power (kw) / Tare + 90 (kg) x 1000 = kw per tonne

Once again thank you for contacting the NZ Transport Agency."

[FJRider]

Sorry to requote, just thought to expand on what I said.



But still wouldn't hurt to print a few copies of the list and issue "those that don't know" a copy. Maybe with a few key things to look for (like Max cc allowed for a start) ... and where to look on the bike.

But I assume the "learner rider stopped" may have to have an explanation, for whatever reason it was ... they were stopped for in the first place. What they are riding will be secondary ...