Exhaust gurus?

[ducatilover]

I'm going to be getting a set of headers and a midpipe made up eventually for my ZZR600d.
Has anyone got any knowledge they can share on balance pipes? Size, length, positioning? I'd like to know the effects of different balance set ups.

The bike currently has the 4-1-2 factory header set up on it with a balance pipe between 2-3, it also has a collector plat where it goes 4-1-2 that will probably be left out.

The plan is to be running a stainless 4-1 using a GSXR1000K7 can (whether or not I'll open that up I'm not too sure.) and from a bit of reading it seems the ZZR D model likes to have a flatspot even with jets and needles. Me being me, I reckon I can get around it.

The usual off the shelf units seem to be exactly the same as factory, with the removal of the balance pipe.

Another though was, would it be wise to have 1-4 and 3-2 collect together? Like a 4-2-1?

Hopefully someone will help out my rambling mess :D

[bogan]

I got a spreadsheet I used to figure out wave and inertial scavenging RPM for the headers as well as midpipe, and cross cylinder stuff too. Should be able to adapt it for the more beige engine configuration too. That being said, I'm an amateur, so it might not be the definitive calculatory whatsit.

You after all top end, or a nice low end and mid range?

[DEATH_INC.]

The factory 'balance' pipe you are talking about prolly isn't. Most of them are blanked off and are just there for strength.
Just stick with 4-1 if possible, nice and simple.
I've often thought of joining 1-4 and 2-3 too, I guess it may add a bit of mid range torque over 4-1 and makes more sense than 1-2 and 3-4.

What I learnt with balance pipes on v8's was to draw a line on the pipe with crayon, and where it first burnt off was the best place to put the balance pipe. I guess that applies to bikes too? I don't think the size and length of the balance pipe has a huge effect, at least the car guys don't seem to be that fussed about it.

Get the size/length right and it should run fine, and pick up quite a few hp in the process :yes:

[DEATH_INC.]

I got a spreadsheet I used to figure out wave and inertial scavenging RPM for the headers as well as midpipe, and cross cylinder stuff too. Should be able to adapt it for the more beige engine configuration too. That being said, I'm an amateur, so it might not be the definitive calculatory whatsit.

You after all top end, or a nice low end and mid range?
Anyone with a bit of experience will tell ya that calculators give you a good starting point, but it's only by experimenting that you find what really works. If they were perfect everyone would have the same pipes....
I've made some far from what the calc's say that have worked very well....

Having said that, I'd love to see 'em :innocent:

[bogan]

Anyone with a bit of experience will tell ya that calculators give you a good starting point, but it's only by experimenting that you find what really works. If they were perfect everyone would have the same pipes....
I've made some far from what the calc's say that have worked very well....

Having said that, I'd love to see 'em :innocent:

Exactly, mine only guesses at what RPM the effects are most evident, no idea how much increase one effect gives over the other though. And its the whole rev range to tune for, not just maximising one value. Still, reckon I might trust it enough to go with one header pipe half a meter longer than the other on my next build.

Here's the spreadsheet anyway, will change it for you IL4 pansies later :bleh:

[Haggis2]

You'll probably find the factory did no end of pissing around with this and the way they made is the best compromise of all factors. Just my opinion though. Merry christmas

[ducatilover]

I got a spreadsheet I used to figure out wave and inertial scavenging RPM for the headers as well as midpipe, and cross cylinder stuff too. Should be able to adapt it for the more beige engine configuration too. That being said, I'm an amateur, so it might not be the definitive calculatory whatsit.

You after all top end, or a nice low end and mid range?
More midrange torque I suppose would be nice lol it's quick enough up top for now.

The factory 'balance' pipe you are talking about prolly isn't. Most of them are blanked off and are just there for strength.
Just stick with 4-1 if possible, nice and simple.
I've often thought of joining 1-4 and 2-3 too, I guess it may add a bit of mid range torque over 4-1 and makes more sense than 1-2 and 3-4.

What I learnt with balance pipes on v8's was to draw a line on the pipe with crayon, and where it first burnt off was the best place to put the balance pipe. I guess that applies to bikes too? I don't think the size and length of the balance pipe has a huge effect, at least the car guys don't seem to be that fussed about it.

Get the size/length right and it should run fine, and pick up quite a few hp in the process :yes:
So do you think it's worth trying it without a 1-2 3-4 collector or whatever?
Will have to have a proper look at my "balancer pipe" as it never made sense why they would only have the one, it's about an inch round

[ducatilover]

You'll probably find the factory did no end of pissing around with this and the way they made is the best compromise of all factors. Just my opinion though. Merry christmas
Agree with you completely, but there's always a trade off they make and I'm also ditching the 4-1-2 system as it's big and fugly.
I'm not too keen on fluffing around with pipe sizes.
But if there is any advantage to different lengths and setups, I'm there

Bogan, I don't have MS spreadsheet program thingy :facepalm:

[onearmedbandit]

You'll probably find the factory did no end of pissing around with this and the way they made is the best compromise of all factors. Just my opinion though. Merry christmas

Fair point. But don't forget that they have accountants stopping them from going crazy and noise/emission laws to satisfy.

[bogan]

You'll probably find the factory did no end of pissing around with this and the way they made is the best compromise of all factors. Just my opinion though. Merry christmas

You haven't seen a ZZR I take it? trust kawasaki to do the best compromise :nya::killingme

Doug I'll need the valve opening/closing angles and firing order / crank angles for the spreadsheet, then can start poking numbers at it.

[blackdog]

I don't have MS spreadsheet program thingy :facepalm:

Open Office. Free download.

[ducatilover]

You haven't seen a ZZR I take it? trust kawasaki to do the best compromise :nya::killingme shhhhhh

Doug I'll need the valve opening/closing angles
and firing order/ crank angles for the spreadsheet, then can start poking numbers at it.
I'm sure I can find all these specs :yes:

Edit, can't find valve timing specs :facepalm:
Firing order is 1-2-4-3 anyway.

[ducatilover]

Open Office. Free download.
Aha, I knew I forgot to copy something from my old PC over :facepalm:

[DEATH_INC.]

So do you think it's worth trying it without a 1-2 3-4 collector or whatever?

If it's max HP you're after, yes, go straight 4-1.

[DEATH_INC.]

Here's the spreadsheet anyway, will change it for you IL4 pansies later :bleh:
Ever notice how the calculators come up with quite small header diameters? Funny eh? Yet, in the real world, on a bike (the car sizes seem about right) you use much larger pipes....
edit: I have made a 4-1 system on an old VF750 Sabre I had, using the calculated sizes and it did work very well, tho I never back to backed it with anything else other than the stock system that just ran to a collector box....

[ducatilover]

If it's max HP you're after, yes, go straight 4-1.

Not too fussed about getting more HP from it really, it already has a +4deg ignition and l&n foam filter up inside it with a nice big selection of jets, will have coil over plug conversion done too, just 'coz I can and it's cheap (I :love: eBay!) and it looks like I'll be keeping standard cams (the E model only has a tiny bit more lift on the intake cam)
So, is a 4-2-1 ideal for road usage? Because I could chop it off at the collector and weld amid pipe on from there.

[AllanB]

The 4-2-1 set up is favoured over the 4-1 on road bikes as it gives a better mid-range. The 4-1 will have top end improvements over the 4-2-1.

If it was mine considering your intake changes etc I'd be inclined to use stock headers and graft on a desired mid-pipe/muffler and sort the jetting before experimenting with header designs.

Just for fun my Hornet 900 runs a 4-2-1-2

[ducatilover]

The 4-2-1 set up is favoured over the 4-1 on road bikes as it gives a better mid-range. The 4-1 will have top end improvements over the 4-2-1.

If it was mine considering your intake changes etc I'd be inclined to use stock headers and graft on a desired mid-pipe/muffler and sort the jetting before experimenting with header designs.

Just for fun my Hornet 900 runs a 4-2-1-2

4-2-1 it is then.
Unless I go mad :D

It'll be on stock headers until I can afford to buy the pipe and pay Bogan to make a yummy looking set
Jetting was sorted for K&N, standard headers and two Neptune cans, ran well and went pretty well for an old tank.
Shouldn't be a huge main jet change because the 4-2-1 has a more restricted can on it(standard GSXR1000K7 jobbie) and I'm not sure if I'll open that up.
Thinking of buying Bogan's Moriwaki can though, I like the name...:laugh::facepalm:

Was only looking at balance pipe changes, but I can't seem to find any real info on them.

[AllanB]

If you are making headers for a visual difference from everything else out there (have considered the same) if you use pipe with the same ID as stock and calculate your headers to be the overall same length as stock you will have little issues with performance or tuning. Sounds like a fun project.

[ducatilover]

If you are making headers for a visual difference from everything else out there (have considered the same) if you use pipe with the same ID as stock and calculate your headers to be the overall same length as stock you will have little issues with performance or tuning. Sounds like a fun project.

That was the plan, it's always worth throwing these ideas out there though.
Might be worth finding if later model ZX6 cams slot in, I know the E model do and my D model has good enough valve springs.
Now to find owners manuals!
I have a sneaking suspicion that the later model ones have smaller cam journals (they certainly have smaller crank journals, big ends and thinner small ends.)

[bogan]

Thinking of buying Bogan's Moriwaki can though, I like the name...:laugh::facepalm:

Buy me a bottle of argon, some stainless, and an even bigger bottle of red bull! and I'll weld up a 'bogan' can for ya, I hear that's a way better brand than moriwaki :shifty:

edit, keep hunting for those valve angles, or even something off similar models, and I'll flick that spreadsheet up here

[ducatilover]

Buy me a bottle of argon, some stainless, and an even bigger bottle of red bull! and I'll weld up a 'bogan' can for ya, I hear that's a way better brand than moriwaki :shifty:

edit, keep hunting for those valve angles, or even something off similar models, and I'll flick that spreadsheet up here
That'd be one hell of a red bull can!

Not too much research will be going on for a while, interwebs here is 0.19mbps and my hair line recedes more with each page load:yawn::pinch: