School fee "donations" & activity fees - Where to draw the line?

[The End]

A friend of mine recently helped out at a local primary school activity day.

It was for a Year 3 (7/8 year olds) "camp" held inside the school grounds. The kids were taught how to put up tents, melt marshmallows on a fire and then were given sausages/bread for lunch like you see outside your local Warehouse.

What was disturbing to hear however was what happened during lunchtime.

The kids all lined up waiting for their sausage/onion/bread/sauce yet some of them were not allowed to be given one as their parents had not paid the school activity fee ($85/year). Ordinarily this would not be too bad, however when one of the kids had no other lunch, surely the teachers in charge would have allowed them a 20 cent piece of bread and a sausage? Nope.

Fair enough if the school trip is to Rainbows End or The Zoo where it costs substantially more to take the kids, exclude them from that; but for a piece of bread surely the school can afford to give the kid something to eat.

Screw bringing milk back to primary schools, make sure the kids have food in their stomachs if you actually want them to learn something.


/Rant

[sugilite]

Yeah, so much for a "free" education. Not everybody can afford to pay these "donations" and the stigma it causes for the children when they are very publicly excluded from school events is reprehensible.

[Bassmatt]

Just following the lead of the Govt. - if the parents are shit punish the kids for it.

[The Lone Rider]

Were the kids sent to the camp with no food because there was the understanding a meal (bread and sausages) were being provided?

[The End]

Were the kids sent to the camp with no food because there was the understanding a meal (bread and sausages) were being provided?

I'm not sure on that one, but for the sake of 20 cents, surely the school could give the kid something to eat...

[Mully]

Were the kids sent to the camp with no food because there was the understanding a meal (bread and sausages) were being provided?

I think that's probably a co-incidence. It's mind-boggling how many kids are sent to school with no lunch (and not having had breakfast either)....

[JimO]

$85.00 thats fuck all try having 3 at high school

[The Lone Rider]

I was just curious if it was a case of parents not providing food for whatever lame reason, which would likely happen more than once... or if the kids had no food because the parents were told "Camping at school and a fire and bbq"

[2Seat_Terror]

NZ is living in a dream world. Free education? Free healthcare? Free speech? Democracy?



Yeah right.

[Oblivion]

3 years ago, when my brother and I were both at High school, the "donation" was 140$ for the both of us. Last year, its was 200$ per person. Needless to say, Parents weren't happy bout that..

[mashman]

$260 each for the 2 at primary school and $40 for the girl at kindy. Fuckin pathetic expensive business. I still don't know what the kids get for it really.

[yungatart]

School donations area necessary evil. The lower decile schools can usually manage with a lower donation, higher decile schools get very limited funding from govt, so need a higher donation to cover things like libraries, upgraded text books, technology equipment,sports and pe gear to name just a few things.
Parents expect that schools will provide all that stuff for their kids, but don't want to pay for it.
Strikes me that schools are damned either way.

[mashman]

I thought I paid taxes so that schools could afford those things?

[yungatart]

I thought I paid taxes so that schools could afford those things?

Most people think like you. Your taxes (and everyone else's) do not fund schools to a level where parents don't need to do a top up by way of donation.
Sad, but true.

[mashman]

Most people think like you. Your taxes (and everyone else's) do not fund schools to a level where parents don't need to do a top up by way of donation.
Sad, but true.

Must be a Kiwi thing then... only thing we paid for in the UK was school trips... books etc... where provided by the school and I don't remember fundraising either. As you say, sad but true.

[FJRider]

I thought I paid taxes so that schools could afford those things?

If everybody paid all the tax the goverment required, to all their departments ... maybe they could.

[sugilite]

School donations area necessary evil. The lower decile schools can usually manage with a lower donation, higher decile schools get very limited funding from govt, so need a higher donation to cover things like libraries, upgraded text books, technology equipment,sports and pe gear to name just a few things.
Parents expect that schools will provide all that stuff for their kids, but don't want to pay for it.
Strikes me that schools are damned either way.

While I agree with what you say, I feel the practice of publicly (in the context of school life) excluding kids because their parents did not, or in many cases could not pay is a very poor way for schools to meter out punishment for not paying a "donation". I've always paid it myself, but it still makes me sick every time I read of the consequences of non payment in the school newsletter. It is not the child's fault and they should not have to suffer the stigma.

[mashman]

If everybody paid all the tax the goverment required, to all their departments ... maybe they could.

of course they do, don't be silly.

[Geeen]

I thought I paid taxes so that schools could afford those things?

My wif was a board member at our daughters school and in charge of their finances. She said the schools get F*ck all funding from the govt. especially high decile schools. By the time they pay the wages for their teacher aides, office pple and grounds people there ain't nothing left for any trips special treats etc.

She found it was always the same kids whose families never paid for trips etc. and most of these families there was no reason why they couldn't find $3 for a trip. It got to a point where the school kept saying "if you don't pay your child won't go" but never did until 1 day my wif drew the line and funnily enough all families paid when they realised the school was serious.

Most schools are happy for parents to pay off fees like this at like $5-10 per week.

Its a user pay society. The education is free, but the camps etc aren't.

[mashman]

but it still makes me sick every time I read of the consequences of non payment in the school newsletter

in the newsletter? WTF!!! Dunno why I'm surprised but I am, yes, very much so...


My wif was a board member at our daughters school and in charge of their finances. She said the schools get F*ck all funding from the govt. especially high decile schools. By the time they pay the wages for their teacher aides, office pple and grounds people there ain't nothing left for any trips special treats etc.

She found it was always the same kids whose families never paid for trips etc. and most of these families there was no reason why they couldn't find $3 for a trip. It got to a point where the school kept saying "if you don't pay your child won't go" but never did until 1 day my wif drew the line and funnily enough all families paid when they realised the school was serious.

Most schools are happy for parents to pay off fees like this at like $5-10 per week.

Its a user pay society. The education is free, but the camps etc aren't.

bagga that's depressing. I've never had a problem with kids not going on a trip because the parents wouldn't/couldn't pay, but when it comes to libraries, textbooks and equipment etc... that annoys the fuck out of me as I thought I had paid for that sort of thing. Live and learn I guess. It must drive yer missus mad.

[FJRider]

It is not the child's fault and they should not have to suffer the stigma.

Tell that to the parents ... (and they are told) but ... the parents dont care.

[James Deuce]

What's more wonderful is when you pay all activity fees for the year up front and then junior comes home from school having been denied "x" because "your parents haven't paid".

"Have", we say.

"Haven't", say the school.

Get bank statement with relevant payment. Go to school. "Have".

"We have no record of that."

"No worries, argue with bank. No, we have number, look, we'll dial it for you."

Bank says, "They HAVE paid, stop being dicks."

School says, "We have no record of that."

Bank says, "We'll talk to your bank about that - Hang on! Is us! You were paid. STFU n00b."

We write letter to school board asking for written apology and refund for denied "x".

Bored of Trustees laugh and hassle wife in playground.

Wife beats Chairman to death with own child - wait that bit not true. Rest is.

[JimO]

Wife beats Chairman to death with own child - wait that bit not true. Rest is.
that was the best bit

[JimO]

I thought I paid taxes so that schools could afford those things?
trouble is your taxes are going towards the lazy cunts that dont work and get paid to breed, best thing you can do is work harder

[merv]

.... but Bill English gave everyone a tax cut didn't he?

[p.dath]

Yeah, so much for a "free" education. Not everybody can afford to pay these "donations" and the stigma it causes for the children when they are very publicly excluded from school events is reprehensible.

We don't pay school donations anymore. We have 4 left in school still. One of the schools wanted a $600 donation this year!

[mashman]

trouble is your taxes are going towards the lazy cunts that dont work and get paid to breed, best thing you can do is work harder

I don't mind the unemployed not filling jobs that aren't there. They keep my money worth what it is.

[tigertim20]

it amuses me the amount of people who whine and bitch that kids today are getting a shit education, arent learning any respect, dont listen, ignore their elders, cannot write clearly and are unable to spell or punctuate properly.
Those same people then tend to bitch that they are asked to contribute a small fee towards the resources the school consumes in its attempt to teach the kids.

as for the sausage thing, thats fucking wrong, why did your friend not tell the teachers to get fucked, and just give the hungry kid a sausage?
Id have thought a simple threat "kids are at your school camp, and you are the teacher, imagine if the newspapers heard you refused to feed the kids that were hungry while under YOUR care" would have been enough to make them begrudgingly cave in.

[Bald Eagle]

what about the school that charges kids for the teacher relief for the staff that go on the trip with them. nice little double dip by a college I know in my local area

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[Ocean1]

pay all activity fees for the year up front

Ah, the world stopped working that way a generation ago, dude. Cash on the barrel head? you gota expect to be treated like a weirdo eh.

In future pay on the second reminder, it's what they understand.

[The Lone Rider]

Dunno about what the "donations" went to when in High School in NZ, but in the states you paid a year FEE (not "donation") to pay for books.

Things like field trips, a form went home to the parent that acted as a permission slip and invoice of the costs. Kids that weren't going (or parents who weren't paying), spent the day in PE or the library or at home.

I went to a public school by choice, with kids who's parents couldn't afford a $5 fee to get into a zoo. For a lucky couple of close friends, my mum occasionally paid for them since their parents couldnt.

[Tigadee]

NZ is living in a dream world. Free education? Free healthcare? Free speech? Democracy?

Yeah right.

Many European countries have truly free education [and very high taxes, of course], even for Uni. No fees whatsoever and no compulsory donations. The more educated and thus employed the population, the higher tax income for Gov't...

[Ender EnZed]

Many European countries have truly free education [and very high taxes, of course], even for Uni. No fees whatsoever and no compulsory donations. The more educated and thus employed the population, the higher tax income for Gov't...

It's a different sort of culture. You can't expect to invest too much in the future here without getting fucked over in the next electoral cycle.

[Ender EnZed]

Terrible, yet articulate, story of woe.

You really pissed off the wrong God in a past life, ay?


what about the school that charges kids for the teacher relief for the staff that go on the trip with them. nice little double dip by a college I know in my local area

How's that double dipping? It's a cost they have to bear, it has to come from somewhere.

[meteor]

$85.00 thats fuck all try having 3 at high school

I hear ya Jim, I have 3 in a private high school. Fees, donations, exam fees, meals, uniform, trips, books, travel... etc etc.
I'd be riding a very nice bike if they just took a gap year!

[avgas]

Education is never free. Chances are if you can't afford the $20/week (or less) to allow your kids to go to school/trips....you most likely can't afford to give them 30 minutes of your time a night for their homework either.

If you want your kids to have a good education, it will cost you in more than one way.
To simply place ALL of that responsibility on the schooling system in NZ is a clear sign of a lazy parent. When toilet training do you simply give em a bucket and shout "Right, there you are, off you go! Don't complain to me if you get it wrong".
Imagine when the poor bastards learn to drive, your probably going to blame the LTSA and the AA.

Education is not a chore, its a privilege. Earn it for your kids.

[Zedder]

And yet, the Education Act of 1989 (which is still in force) states that childeren from the age of 5-19 are entitled to free education.

The gap between theory and reality.

[Ender EnZed]

And yet, the Education Act of 1989 (which is still in force) states that childeren from the age of 5-19 are entitled to free education.

The gap between theory and reality.

It doesn't though.

Everyone know's that. Shirely.

[Zedder]

It doesn't though.

Everyone know's that. Shirely.

Have you read it?

[Ender EnZed]

Have you read it?

I'll readily accept that the thread doesn't state that. If you have a real specific axe to grind then go for it! Isn't that half the point?

[ellipsis]

...if anybody is under the illusion that free doesn't cost something, then they have not quite grabbed and ingested the reality that energy cannot be destroyed, only transformed...nothing comes for nothing, even if it's free...

[Geeen]

It must drive yer missus mad.

Yup, We had many discussions about it and as a result she is now the former financial controller for the BOT

[avgas]

And yet, the Education Act of 1989 (which is still in force) states that childeren from the age of 5-19 are entitled to free education.
The gap between theory and reality.
Its not theory and reality. Its black and white (or at least it was when I read it).
There basic eduction is free - but everything above that bar is not.

Ever ordered a 3 course main at a FREE soup kitchen.

There is no mention of:
- Good teachers
- Technology
- Extra-Curricular activities
- Teacher Student Ratios
- Free food
- Trips.......
(at least it didn't when I read it 15 years ago)

If you wish to rely 100% on the govt systems for your life I highly recommend China and Russia.
Because if everyone follows your theory our schools will look like this:
http://factsanddetails.com/media/2/20080311-2004-Jingmi-class%20Nolls.jpg

[Zedder]

I'll readily accept that the thread doesn't state that. If you have a real specific axe to grind then go for it! Isn't that half the point?

Axe to grind? I was just posting about info that wasn't already here as well as an observation about irony.

[Bald Eagle]

You really pissed off the wrong God in a past life, ay?



How's that double dipping? It's a cost they have to bear, it has to come from somewhere.

because they get an oprating grant to pay the salaries already

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[Zedder]

[QUOTE=avgas;1130290153]Its not theory and reality. Its black and white (or at least it was when I read it).
There basic eduction is free - but everything above that bar is not.

Ever ordered a 3 course main at a FREE soup kitchen.

There is no mention of:
- Good teachers
- Technology
- Extra-Curricular activities
- Teacher Student Ratios
- Free food
- Trips.......
(at least it didn't when I read it 15 years ago)

If you wish to rely 100% on the govt systems for your life I highly recommend China and Russia.
Because if everyone follows your theory our schools will look like this:


My apologies, I should have written: Free basic, minimum, no extra costs amount of education.

[Usarka]

Send me a bill for fees and I'll pay it.

In the meantime stick the donation up your arse.

[Zedder]

Send me a bill for fees and I'll pay it.

In the meantime stick the donation up your arse.

Exactly, they wouldn't dare use the word fees when the Act states that Education is free.

[avgas]

Send me a bill for fees and I'll pay it.

In the meantime stick the donation up your arse.


Exactly, they wouldn't dare use the word fees when the Act states that Education is free.

I personally would prefer to have it the other way around. Drop the level of eduction so only the kids who have parents that gave a damn, or the very determined kids would try and learn more out of school.

Improved education is not a right, so if people don't want it - don't give it to them. They shouldn't have to pay if they want stupid offspring.

[Zedder]

I personally would prefer to have it the other way around. Drop the level of eduction so only the kids who have parents that gave a damn, or the very determined kids would try and learn more out of school.

Improved education is not a right, so if people don't want it - don't give it to them. They shouldn't have to pay if they want stupid offspring.

So now you're an expert on education. Strange, I didn't see anything on your self professed qualifications list that stated that.

Look how you spelt education in your previous post by the way (eduction).

Also, things may have changed a bit since you "read" the Education Act 15 years ago!

[jasonu]

$260 each for the 2 at primary school and $40 for the girl at kindy. Fuckin pathetic expensive business. I still don't know what the kids get for it really.

What else can you get for $260 that lasts 5 days a week for (more or less) a whole year?

[Winston001]

School donations were called fees until very recently. The word used doesn't really matter, the fact is schools don't have enough money to rise above the basics. The "donation" is for the benefit of your children. I'm appalled when I learn of parents who refuse to pay. They are bludging on the backs of others.

Certainly there are families where the extra money is hard to find. My experience is those families are treated well by the school if they front up and privately discuss their difficulty.

My wife was Chair of the BOT when our children were at primary. The Parent Teacher Association raised funds for trips/camps for children whose parents couldn't pay. What stunned me was when we helped the PTA fund-raise for dictionaries! Cripes I said, surely that's basic Education Department books but no....:facepalm:

[Zedder]

What else can you get for $260 that lasts 5 days a week for (more or less) a whole year?

Yeah, but according to Avgas it's for dumb kids though. Psst: He hasn't got a clue though 'cos NZ Education is ranked extremely highly (Number 1 in the World ratings last year) even though it's free (hush my mouth!) at a very very basic level of course.

[Indiana_Jones]

Most people think like you. Your taxes (and everyone else's) do not fund schools to a level where parents don't need to do a top up by way of donation.
Sad, but true.

It is sad and true. So the government should put more $$ into the schools. Take the money from other useless things like heating for prisoners or funding people to go overseas to study 'hip-hop' etc :D

-Indy

[James Deuce]

They are bludging on the backs of others.



Are they? Do you have proof? The privileged are always very good at making sweeping generalisations about others lacking in resources. Hence Marie Antoinette's well-meaning blithering about Brioche. There's a tiny amount of idiotic blowhards ranting about school fees. There's a crapload of Mums and Dads going without lunch for a couple of weeks so their kids can go to a school camp. There's sod all parents sending kids to school without lunch.

There are a bunch of people in this country who resolutely insist that those living in poverty deserve it because they don't work hard, or are low-born and deserving of suffering, or mentally incapable of understanding how to escape from the disaster they find themselves in. The vast majority of those people aren't the despicable dope-smoking, drunken idiots a portion of this society would have us believe.

Just because John Key escaped a less privileged upbringing doesn't mean everyone else has the same opportunity. It seems to escape lots of people that there are thousands of people competing for tens of jobs in some sectors of NZ's employment market and simply no jobs in other areas. For those of you saying "move!", it ain't that easy. Stop and think of the logistics and cost and the fact that people aren't going to pay you a relocation allowance for a supermarket job.

[tigertim20]

Education is never free. Chances are if you can't afford the $20/week (or less) to allow your kids to go to school/trips....you most likely can't afford to give them 30 minutes of your time a night for their homework either.

If you want your kids to have a good education, it will cost you in more than one way.
To simply place ALL of that responsibility on the schooling system in NZ is a clear sign of a lazy parent. When toilet training do you simply give em a bucket and shout "Right, there you are, off you go! Don't complain to me if you get it wrong".
Imagine when the poor bastards learn to drive, your probably going to blame the LTSA and the AA.

Education is not a chore, its a privilege. Earn it for your kids.

Got to disagree with the first half of your post mate, there is bugger all correlation between low income, and parents that dont give a fuck - and before you throw words like kahui or the 16 year old rapist, dont forget that people like the hilton girl and a huge number of other famous people who came from massive wealth went down the toilet too.

I dunno if you ave kids, or are fortunate enough to be quite well off, but for joe average, working his 40 hour week or more, its fucking expensive raising kids, especially after theyve paid their mortgage, bills, vehicle expenses various insurance etc etc. Its not easy to find extra money.
There is a correlation between lower socio-economic brackets, and lower levels of acheivement, but thats hardly surprising, when you cant afford the extra cost of playing rugby, being in the school band/choir or whatever kind of extra curricular activity that has been proven to aid development.
Having an inability to pay for extras by no means suggests that you have no time for your kids - it just means you're broke. I can relate to that.

I do agree with one of your sentiments though, that the best thing you can spend on your kid is time - it is a shame more parents dont recognize that, its too easy for some parents to buy shit to keep kids off their backs, and we have a generation of little arseholes growing up from being educated at home by Xbox and gory vids on youtube.

[Geeen]

because they get an oprating grant to pay the salaries already

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Mrs Geeen here :shit:,

The school's aren't double dipping here. The teachers who are 'permanent staff' are paid directly by the ministry of education, however any[U] relieving staff are paid for out of the school operating grant (their own funds), so if a school needs to get a reliever in to go on a trip then they may need some help paying for it. I would however question the need to have a reliever for a trip.... but that's a whole different back story.

I think the main thing to take into consideration is what is being debated, there is a vast difference between what was a 'donation' when I was at school, and what schools are doing now.

Nowerdays schools ask for a donation (either per child or per family depending on the school) which is a donation. It doesn't have to be paid. Some schools hound parents for it, others accept they will only get a 40% return rate and work on other ways to fund things.

The other thing schools are introducing is an "activity fee" which [U]is a compulsory fee. These fees have been introduced so that schools don't have to ask for $3 for trip A, and $4 for activity B when they happen, because they have already been paid for with the fee (little bits often takes up a lot of admin time).

In all honesty as someone who has done ALOT of work in school finances I think it's disgusting that (if the initial post happened -not questioning that it happened but the whole story isn't known) the staff at that school didn't make sure every kid had paid the fee before the camp. There is no excuse not to ring parents and explain the situation.

It is a user pay society. It's free to sit in a classroom and have a teacher teach, however schools can not afford to do trips, provide extra resources etc without parents help.

keep in mind, kids bring home books from school, a lot don't come back. We had to replenish the reader books for our new entrants last year, it cost $5000 (and we are a small school with 1 new entrant class) just for enough titles to get a class of kids through their 1st year of school. Then you add in the costs of computers..... it ain't hard to see how come schools can't do much without donations and fundraising.

[p.dath]

School donations were called fees until very recently. The word used doesn't really matter, the fact is schools don't have enough money to rise above the basics. The "donation" is for the benefit of your children. I'm appalled when I learn of parents who refuse to pay. They are bludging on the backs of others.

Certainly there are families where the extra money is hard to find. My experience is those families are treated well by the school if they front up and privately discuss their difficulty.

My wife was Chair of the BOT when our children were at primary. The Parent Teacher Association raised funds for trips/camps for children whose parents couldn't pay. What stunned me was when we helped the PTA fund-raise for dictionaries! Cripes I said, surely that's basic Education Department books but no....:facepalm:

The total donations (not fees, subject fees, activity fees, etc) between our four children at school was a touch under $1200 this year. Yep, over a grand in donations being asked for. One of those schools wanted $600 on its own.

I refuse to pay. I simply can't afford to pay for the premium - so I am happy to accept the basics.

So I guess while you call me a bludger, my view of the school officials (especially after your comments) asking for such ludicrous amounts of money reduces even further.

Perhaps if I had the pay and benefits of the teachers and officials asking for the money (like your wife, its seems) it might be a different story.

[p.dath]

It is a user pay society. It's free to sit in a classroom and have a teacher teach, however schools can not afford to do trips, provide extra resources etc without parents help.

Scrap the trips then.

If someone wants more than the public system provides they can go to a private school.

[Indiana_Jones]

If people are willing to top up what the government should be covering then the government is just gonna keep paying less.

Fair enough asking for cash for extra/out of school activities, like a trip to the zoo or a camp. Let parents choose.

-Indy

[mashman]

What else can you get for $260 that lasts 5 days a week for (more or less) a whole year?

I realise that this may be an outdated concept, but I want my kids, and everyone else's, to have a completely free education. Not everyone has the money to spend and as mentioned by others, that should not be a factor in regards to public exclusion and it most definitely should not be a factor in the standard of education that any child in the country receives. I had a free edumacation and wonder what changed that stopped every child from having a free education. My taxes should be enough, if they aren't, then the fuckers who spend it are spending it on the wrong things, like finance company bailouts etc... This country, and pretty much every other country on the planet, is fucked because of dickheads who wield social budget like a hammer. They can all go fuck themselves and deserve lots of time in jail for such a gross mismanagement.

[p.dath]

Education is never free. Chances are if you can't afford the $20/week (or less) to allow your kids to go to school/trips....you most likely can't afford to give them 30 minutes of your time a night for their homework either.

If you want your kids to have a good education, it will cost you in more than one way.
To simply place ALL of that responsibility on the schooling system in NZ is a clear sign of a lazy parent. When toilet training do you simply give em a bucket and shout "Right, there you are, off you go! Don't complain to me if you get it wrong".
Imagine when the poor bastards learn to drive, your probably going to blame the LTSA and the AA.

Education is not a chore, its a privilege. Earn it for your kids.

Shit your a pompous arse.

I can't afford to pay that $20/week/child donations. I always pay the activity fees and subject fees.

I make sure all the children do their homework from 4pm to 5pm. And I try and give one of them extra tutoring time in the morning before they go to school as well.

I also work full time, and I volunteer a couple of hours of my week every week helping learner riders gain skills to keep them alive.


So thanks for calling me a lazy parent. Much appreciated.

[Zedder]

I realise that this may be an outdated concept, but I want my kids, and everyone else's, to have a completely free education. Not everyone has the money to spend and as mentioned by others, that should not be a factor in regards to public exclusion and it most definitely should not be a factor in the standard of education that any child in the country receives. I had a free edumacation and wonder what changed that stopped every child from having a free education. My taxes should be enough, if they aren't, then the fuckers who spend it are spending it on the wrong things, like finance company bailouts etc... This country, and pretty much every other country on the planet, is fucked because of dickheads who wield social budget like a hammer. They can all go fuck themselves and deserve lots of time in jail for such a gross mismanagement.

Some figures for you: http://www.treasury.govt.nz/government/expenditure

[Usarka]

There's sod all parents sending kids to school without lunch.


I'd say the majority of kids at my high school went to school without lunch, and I'm talking a few years ago now. Mind you it was in a very low decile south auckland school.

[mashman]

Some figures for you: http://www.treasury.govt.nz/government/expenditure

I could get lost in there forever, but it still doesn't help that those who wield the budget are useless.

[Zedder]

If people are willing to top up what the government should be covering then the government is just gonna keep paying less.

Fair enough asking for cash for extra/out of school activities, like a trip to the zoo or a camp. Let parents choose.

-Indy

The Government are probably laughing up their sleeves at people topping up the education budget and aren't likely to stop them paying.

[Winston001]

The privileged are always very good at making sweeping generalisations about others lacking in resources...

There's sod all parents sending kids to school without lunch...



Jim - there are parents sending children to school who at age 5 cannot even talk. Nobody speaks to them at home and the only interaction they have is with the TV. They learn not to say anything in case they get a belt around the head.


The total donations (not fees, subject fees, activity fees, etc) between our four children at school was a touch under $1200 this year. Yep, over a grand in donations being asked for. One of those schools wanted $600 on its own.

I refuse to pay. I simply can't afford to pay for the premium - so I am happy to accept the basics.

So I guess while you call me a bludger, my view of the school officials (especially after your comments) asking for such ludicrous amounts of money reduces even further.

Perhaps if I had the pay and benefits of the teachers and officials asking for the money (like your wife, its seems) it might be a different story.

No offence intended and you'll note I said families who cannot afford to pay are treated well if they front up.

My wife did her BOT work in the evenings for five years. No payment (she donated the meeting fees to the school). The phone rang every night and sometimes at 6 am too. Thats on top of a full time job and being a mother to 3 young children. Other BOT members did the same, particularly the Treasurer.

I totally agree that $1200 is a big sum and your reaction is understandable. Have you offered a contribution - say $20/month? It all helps.

Like it or not, what is unpaid has to be covered by other parents.

[p.dath]

Like it or not, what is unpaid has to be covered by other parents.

Negative. The school can reduce its expenditure to live within it's income - like I have to. It's common sense really.

[avgas]

So now you're an expert on education. Strange, I didn't see anything on your self professed qualifications list that stated that.
Look how you spelt education in your previous post by the way (eduction).
Also, things may have changed a bit since you "read" the Education Act 15 years ago!
When you do something enough its easy to become an expert (12 years pre-Uni, 12 years @ Uni........I would like to do more but work/family gets in the way).

I would love to teach (especially around that year 11-13 mark - kids have so much energy then), but alas I don't see a point in having to sacrifice salary for it.
I would like to think things have changed - but you have not stated the changes.....leaving me to believe you have not read it. Or it has not changed

As for the spelling mistake, I am truely sorry. I had no idea you had placed me in such god like status before. I do enjoy making mistakes as it gives me something to improve on.

[Zedder]

Jim - there are parents sending children to school who at age 5 cannot even talk. Nobody speaks to them at home and the only interaction they have is with the TV. They learn not to say anything in case they get a belt around the head.



No offence intended and you'll note I said families who cannot afford to pay are treated well if they front up.

My wife did her BOT work in the evenings for five years. No payment (she donated the meeting fees to the school). The phone rang every night and sometimes at 6 am too. Thats on top of a full time job and being a mother to 3 young children. Other BOT members did the same, particularly the Treasurer.

I totally agree that $1200 is a big sum and your reaction is understandable. Have you offered a contribution - say $20/month? It all helps.

Like it or not, what is unpaid has to be covered by other parents.

No Winston001, parents do not have to pay anything. That's the difference between fees (compulsory and enforceable) and donations (voluntary and not enforceable) parents pay because, in most cases, they want the best for their kids. That's perfectly understandable.

Some of the other "parents" (criminals) shouldn't even be allowed to have kids, but the taxpayer picks up the tab for their activities as well. Meanwhile the kids suffer.

The reality is, although New Zealand education is meant to be free, we as a country can't properly afford it under the current system. Low Government revenue from a small population coupled with bad financial management, company bailouts, civil emergencies and recessions etc all take their toll easily. The "rob Peter to pay Paul" syndrome is alive and well in NZ and swings between Health and Education costs often.

Despite this, for some reason we've still got a very high ranking education system when measured against other countries.

Anyway, 'nuf said, I'd better carry with my very lawful behaviour ('morning Police Minister!) and do some stuff.

[Zedder]

When you do something enough its easy to become an expert (12 years pre-Uni, 12 years @ Uni........I would like to do more but work/family gets in the way).

I would love to teach (especially around that year 11-13 mark - kids have so much energy then), but alas I don't see a point in having to sacrifice salary for it.
I would like to think things have changed - but you have not stated the changes.....leaving me to believe you have not read it. Or it has not changed

As for the spelling mistake, I am truely sorry. I had no idea you had placed me in such god like status before. I do enjoy making mistakes as it gives me something to improve on.

I agree with Pdath.

[avgas]

Shit your a pompous arse.
I can't afford to pay that $20/week/child donations. I always pay the activity fees and subject fees.
I make sure all the children do their homework from 4pm to 5pm. And I try and give one of them extra tutoring time in the morning before they go to school as well.
I also work full time, and I volunteer a couple of hours of my week every week helping learner riders gain skills to keep them alive.
So thanks for calling me a lazy parent. Much appreciated.
I am on this subject to an extent. For no other reason except to get reactions. I would like to see why people feel they should not have to pay for some of the best education in the world.

Why can't you? I can't afford to put new tyres on my bike.
Fantastic in regards to you paying activity fees and subject fees though - but how do you feel about the people who freeload off you paying?

Even more fantastic in regards to homework thing. If you re-read my post, this does not make you a lazy parent at all.
But it does raise the question - $20/week?
If it is such a problem for so many NZer's - why don't they simply cut it out and drop the standard of education? Surely that would make everyone happier than having to pay an extra grand or so a year?

A good day educational care will set you back about $200+ week, private school nearly double that, Uni is around that mark. I do feel a lot for you solo parents out there who work though.

Hell back in the day Encyclopedia Britannica cost something like $1500!

So is out education system that much of a rip-off?

[avgas]

I agree with Pdath.
http://mamapumpkin.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/cheeky-baby.jpg

[avgas]

Scrap the trips then.
If someone wants more than the public system provides they can go to a private school.
I completely agree.
Scrap everything they can't afford and give a free education. If parents want more they can organize it themselves.

But I have warned once here.
Be careful what you wish for. I once was told the cabin bread was free food. Cabin bread is not food at all - it's a building material.

[Winston001]

It's free to sit in a classroom and have a teacher teach, however schools can not afford to do trips, provide extra resources etc without parents help.

keep in mind, kids bring home books from school, a lot don't come back. We had to replenish the reader books for our new entrants last year, it cost $5000

Good post.

You've reminded me of a meeting at our primary school prompted by the school "donation" argument. The principal showed us some books which regularly disappeared and explained there was no budget provided for that. Basic things I thought our taxes paid for - were not. Dictionaries as referred to earlier.

[p.dath]

I am on this subject to an extent. For no other reason except to get reactions. I would like to see why people feel they should not have to pay for some of the best education in the world.

I never asked for the "some of the best education in the world". I am happy for this to exist in NZ in the private sector, where those not forced by the law have the option to make that additional investment.

I just want a "standard" level of education for my children. That's all I can afford. There's no extra money hiding. And even if there was, why should I be forced to spend it on a premium service?

I am also happy with the student loans arrangement, where those seekng a higher education can make the *choice* to also invest in their education. So everyone has the opportunity.




Why can't you? I can't afford to put new tyres on my bike.

First, there is no legislation forcing you to ride a motorbike. And if you choose, there is only a *minimum* standard set. You aren't forced to buy "some of the best tyres in the world".



Fantastic in regards to you paying activity fees and subject fees though - but how do you feel about the people who freeload off you paying?

It's simply a fact of life that you'll need to get used to. Mostly it happens because of things beyond your control - such as large scale Government organisations protected by legislation leaving you with no say in the matter. It's best no to sweat things beyond your control.



But it does raise the question - $20/week?
If it is such a problem for so many NZer's - why don't they simply cut it out and drop the standard of education? Surely that would make everyone happier than having to pay an extra grand or so a year?

Here are the Governments financial accounts:
http://www.treasury.govt.nz/government/financialstatements/yearend/jun11

You'll see as one of the tax payers we already chipped in $11.65 billion dollars for education. The ministry of education web site says the school year floats around 40 weeks, so thats about $291 million a week. According to the DOL there is about 2.2 million employed people in NZ (and I'm one of them). That being the case, each employed tax payer is already paying a notional average of $132/week.

I think $132/week is already a precent decent whack.



So is out education system that much of a rip-off?

I'm not questioning value for money. I'm quesitoning the magitude of the money.

If Telecom started offering a Terrabit internet connection for $1m/month I'm not suddenly going to take up the offer because it represents great value. I simply couldn't afford to spend $1m/month, and even if I could - I still wouldn't make that choice.

[p.dath]

Good post.

You've reminded me of a meeting at our primary school prompted by the school "donation" argument. The principal showed us some books which regularly disappeared and explained there was no budget provided for that. Basic things I thought our taxes paid for - were not. Dictionaries as referred to earlier.

There is no budget provided for this only if the school does not put it in their budget. Sounds like a simple problem to do with the spending priorities of that school to me, or an error of judgement made by the school management. It sounds like a very predicatable expense to me - especially if they say it happens regularly.

I would have thought spending on books in this manner would have had a higher priority that school trips ...