WOF reforms.

[Asher]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/motoring/news/article.cfm?c_id=9&objectid=10795220&ref-fbheadline

Gerry Brownlee is suggesting they extend the 6 month period between testing.

I dont quite see the point though, i find every 6 months to be a reasonable amount of time although if it was based on distance traveled it would be more reasonable.

[FJRider]

The onus will be still on the owners to keep their vehicles in a safe condition. With VERY heavy fines if they are not.

[caseye]

Once a year should be plenty and yes very Very heavy fines if a vehicle is not up to scratch and outside warrant period.
I could live with this.

[oneofsix]

Why test them at all. The test is only valid until you leave the testing station and even then it often gives a false sense of safety. It is already a requirement that your vehicle be roadworthy every time you take it on the road and the police are already doing random checks, of at the moment that check is mainly to look at the sticker. Insurance can already refuse your calm if the vehicle wasn't roadworthy when you crashed. So why have to pay for a test that isn't solely safety focus (if it has fog lights they must work, why? you don't need to have them)

[FJRider]

The thing is ... what does he hope to achieve ... ???

Many garages have the WOF check's as their primary income. And a tidy little earner for most. Is this a prelude to "safety checks" by NZTA testing stations only ... ???

[sil3nt]

The thing is ... what does he hope to achieve ... ???

Many garages have the WOF check's as their primary income. And a tidy little earner for most. Is this a prelude to "safety checks" by NZTA testing stations only ... ???My brother lives in Ireland and they have to book their car in months in advance as only certain places can carry out the checks. Stupid system but it wouldn't surprise me if we went that way.

[GingerMidget]

Thats a bad idea. A really effing bad idea. You all know where I work, and I see some rather unloved cars. The current system is working fine, and does not need to be changed. This is progress for progress sake. Does he actually live in the real world?

I know my car will pass its next warrent, but I can't say that for everyone else. The one after that could be a bit dicey if I don't get the rust on the crossmember dealt to at some stage soon.

too long?
In short, bad idea.

[oneofsix]

The thing is ... what does he hope to achieve ... ???

Many garages have the WOF check's as their primary income. And a tidy little earner for most. Is this a prelude to "safety checks" by NZTA testing stations only ... ???

You more cynical than me :woohoo: You have hit on the one thing that worried me, why would he be taken money away from businesses? but as you point out he could be taking it off the small business to eventually give it to big business and that makes sense. Get pulled over and failed by the cops or dedicated safety force and the only way back on the road is to get a full VIN type check at VTNZ even though it was only an indicate bulb blown. :pinch:

[sil3nt]

Has anyone with a vehicle less than 5 years old failed a WOF?

[GingerMidget]

Has anyone with a vehicle less than 5 years old failed a WOF?

It does happen. Late model audi, bulge on the brake hose with cords exposed. Fail and told replace asap. Thats the most recent example I can think of.

Rental cars have a higher average of seatbelt fails too, due to people closing doors on them etc. But thats a different inspection so don't think it really counts IMO

[Usarka]

How likely is it that people with bangers are going to find twice as many problems all at once and not be able to afford to fix them?

[GingerMidget]

I see a lot of people given a big list on an old car, come back a few days later and de-register it. Its sad, but unfortunately given the average age of the countries vehicles, not too surprising. This new emissions thing is going to cripple the market too, but thats a whole 'nother rant me thinks.

[Scuba_Steve]

Why test them at all. The test is only valid until you leave the testing station and even then it often gives a false sense of safety. It is already a requirement that your vehicle be roadworthy every time you take it on the road and the police are already doing random checks, of at the moment that check is mainly to look at the sticker. Insurance can already refuse your calm if the vehicle wasn't roadworthy when you crashed. So why have to pay for a test that isn't solely safety focus (if it has fog lights they must work, why? you don't need to have them)

yea this ^ Get rid of WOF's, nothing more than an extortion of money.

[bogan]

Thats a bad idea. A really effing bad idea. You all know where I work,


strip joint?


and I see some rather unloved cars.

the tinted out rusted panelvans known to frequent such establishments, doesn't surprise me :bleh:


The current system is working fine, and does not need to be changed. This is progress for progress sake. Does he actually live in the real world?

I know my car will pass its next warrent, but I can't say that for everyone else. The one after that could be a bit dicey if I don't get the rust on the crossmember dealt to at some stage soon.

too long?
In short, bad idea.

I disagree, 6 months is too often. I would guess that most failed wofs are things that would last another 6 months, or that the owner should pick up on anyway, tyres/lights/etc. The boys that swap out spring for wofs and know their cars are dodgy will still do that, just half as often.

Its a way of reducing the cost of multiple vehicle ownership (I pay 160 per year just in wofs, that's almost the whole ORC of a scoot), and with the fuel situation as its going, this is a good thing.

[oneofsix]

I see a lot of people given a big list on an old car, come back a few days later and de-register it. Its sad, but unfortunately given the average age of the countries vehicles, not too surprising. This new emissions thing is going to cripple the market too, but thats a whole 'nother rant me thinks.

Are you saying they are now driving a de-registered and unwarrantable old banger because increasing the burden of ownership isn't going to make them do with out a car. The old vehicle problem has to be dealt with differently.

[oneofsix]

I know my car will pass its next warrent, but I can't say that for everyone else. The one after that could be a bit dicey if I don't get the rust on the crossmember dealt to at some stage soon.


So you don't need the WOF to tell you to deal with the crossmember. Is it only the threat of failing the WOF that will cause you to deal to it? I suspect not. But because we trust places like VTNZ to pick these things up we don't take care of the vehicle in the meantime and the WOF checks can only pick up what is a problem at the time of the WOF so there is the false sense of safety.

[Rosie]

Has anyone with a vehicle less than 5 years old failed a WOF?

Yes. The VTNZ guy shined my motorbike headlight at a roller door 1m away and said I had to adjust it because it 'kinda doesn't look right'. I checked it properly, took it back unadjusted, and he said it looked much better now I'd adjusted it.

I'm all for an objective test of whether vehicles meet clear (and reasonable) safety standards, but if your vehicle is older, or isn't a car, the current system is a real lottery.

[bogan]

So you don't need the WOF to tell you to deal with the crossmember. Is it only the threat of failing the WOF that will cause you to deal to it? I suspect not. But because we trust places like VTNZ to pick these things up we don't take care of the vehicle in the meantime and the WOF checks can only pick up what is a problem at the time of the WOF so there is the false sense of safety.

They looked into wofs in parts of europe for bikes last year iirc. One of the resaons against it, was the depersonalisation of safety responsibility. If another guy is getting all pedantic about how unsafe your bike is, why bother checking it yourself? Then because bikes now go 6 months without checks, instead of a pre-ride, or monthly check, they are less safe.

Not sure whether it would offset the safety gained by ensuring all bikes meet the standard at one time, but is an interesting argument. Though it is one that is more applicable to bikes, higher proportion of users already do safety checks on thier bikes than cars.

[oneofsix]

They looked into wofs in parts of europe for bikes last year iirc. One of the resaons against it, was the depersonalisation of safety responsibility. If another guy is getting all pedantic about how unsafe your bike is, why bother checking it yourself? Then because bikes now go 6 months without checks, instead of a pre-ride, or monthly check, they are less safe.

Not sure whether it would offset the safety gained by ensuring all bikes meet the standard at one time, but is an interesting argument. Though it is one that is more applicable to bikes, higher proportion of users already do safety checks on thier bikes than cars.

And being honest how many of the bikes over 5 year only get the yearly WOF and only then if the rider is registering it? Most bike WOFs take more to check than a car and so a safer from the parking warden.

[GingerMidget]

So you don't need the WOF to tell you to deal with the crossmember. Is it only the threat of failing the WOF that will cause you to deal to it? I suspect not. But because we trust places like VTNZ to pick these things up we don't take care of the vehicle in the meantime and the WOF checks can only pick up what is a problem at the time of the WOF so there is the false sense of safety.

I know my car well enough to know when something is wrong, and we (dad and I) picked up the CM rust a couple of weeks ago. Its not an issue yet, but I don't want it to become one. Its parked in the garage, and barely driven so it won't become an issue for some time.

It amazes me though, the number of people who can't check their own oil. I do that every two weeks. Its been fine the whole time, and is getting a change this weekend if we have time. people just don't care it seems

Its also six years for yearly warrents. Not 5 as the herald states

[avgas]

I used to think WOF's were important but now not so much. They have let too many obvious things through while penalizing people on stupid stuff that will never save their life.

[ducatilover]

Yes. The VTNZ guy shined my motorbike headlight at a roller door 1m away and said I had to adjust it because it 'kinda doesn't look right'. I checked it properly, took it back unadjusted, and he said it looked much better now I'd adjusted it.

I'm all for an objective test of whether vehicles meet clear (and reasonable) safety standards, but if your vehicle is older, or isn't a car, the current system is a real lottery.
My CB400 passed a wof with illegally thing discs on the front, because they don't have the specs, or a micrometer to measure them :facepalm: Only a slight safety issue... :blink:

The false sense of security thing is true. I only get a vehicle to pass a wof so it's legal, it doesn't mean a huge amount about safety. People should learn their vehicles better.

The fog light rule is stupid BTW.

[Usarka]

It amazes me though, the number of people who can't check their own oil.


Hmmmm... including VTNZ staff. Guy at the local VTNZ tried telling me that I needed a litre of oil for the car couple of weeks ago (evidently they now do a maintenance check that he thought I'd paid for but hadn't). I checked it cold the next morning and it was fine.

I'm not sure if he hasn't been trained how to check oil (wtf is he doing working on cars???!?!?!) or he was trying to rip me off.

[ducatilover]

Hmmmm... including VTNZ staff. Guy at the local VTNZ tried telling me that I needed a litre of oil for the car couple of weeks ago (evidently they now do a maintenance check that he thought I'd paid for but hadn't). I checked it cold the next morning and it was fine.

I'm not sure if he hasn't been trained how to check oil (wtf is he doing working on cars???!?!?!) or he was trying to rip me off.
Trying to sell you oil, I'd do that :bleh: "you need half a litre mate, I'll sort that for ya" :laugh:
They told a mate her car needed a trans flush, just after we did one on it :facepalm: has happened several times.

[GingerMidget]

Hmmmm... including VTNZ staff. Guy at the local VTNZ tried telling me that I needed a litre of oil for the car couple of weeks ago (evidently they now do a maintenance check that he thought I'd paid for but hadn't). I checked it cold the next morning and it was fine.

I'm not sure if he hasn't been trained how to check oil (wtf is he doing working on cars???!?!?!) or he was trying to rip me off.

Standard procedure to now check oil, and if its at min ask the customer if they would like it topped up. You'd be surprised how often it happens, and people with NO oil on the dipstick. Thats a scary one! We don't have that terribly often, but its enough to be concerning.

[Rosie]

My CB400 passed a wof with illegally thing discs on the front, because they don't have the specs, or a micrometer to measure them :facepalm: Only a slight safety issue... :blink:

As I said, it's a lottery. Sometimes you get passed for things you shouldn't, sometimes you get failed for a non-existent problem and can't get a straight explanation for what is wrong.

[jellywrestler]

every six months is a hangover from the seventies and earlier when your ball joints fell to bits regularly, now things should be more reliable.
should be a longer gap now even between the 12 months for vechiles under five years old then straight to six monthly, why not 9 months for 5-10 yr old ones?
what fucks me off is taking a trailer in and paying a fortune for when they have SFA to check too, especially when used a handful of times a year

[Scuba_Steve]

what fucks me off is taking a trailer in and paying a fortune for when they have SFA to check too, especially when used a handful of times a year

they need WOF's :innocent::shifty:

[Swoop]

I for one, welcome this review of the WoF, rego and licencing systems.

The age restriction on vehicles being imported has been lowered, so we will be seeing less of the Tokyo cast-offs on our roads, ergo a younger fleet on our roads.

6-monthly taxations approaching $50- a time appear odd in an age of higher technology and reliability.

The difficult part remains the human who owns the vehicle.

[davereid]

The WOF bits the smokescreen. Thats only $45 million and the government dont pay it, you do.

This is really about the relicensing, and the ACC levy.

The ACC levy is now so high, that many minimise costs by putting vehicles on hold etc.

And the ADMIN cost of letting people put vehicles on hold is more than $45 million.

This is about ensuring you pay your ACC levy, all year on everything with no "on hold".

[oneofsix]

The WOF bits the smokescreen. Thats only $45 million and the government dont pay it, you do.

This is really about the relicensing, and the ACC levy.

The ACC levy is now so high, that many minimise costs by putting vehicles on hold etc.

And the ADMIN cost of letting people put vehicles on hold is more than $45 million.

This is about ensuring you pay your ACC levy, all year on everything with no "on hold".

put your vehicle on hold for any reason and for any length of time and you will have to have it re-vin'd to get it rego'd <_<

[pzkpfw]

Has anyone with a vehicle less than 5 years old failed a WOF?

2 years in a row VTNZ failed me for badly adjusted lights.

The Toyota dealer adjusted them, and all is good.

Frankly I think it may have been a side-effect of the auto-levelling; maybe I went in with the dial in the wrong place.

Just got latest WOF direct at the dealer. No issues found at all. (And I'd let the WOF be lapsed for 3 Months before I bothered taking it in).

[GingerMidget]

put your vehicle on hold for any reason and for any length of time and you will have to have it re-vin'd to get it rego'd <_<

:facepalm:

Umm. Whut

[oneofsix]

2 years in a row VTNZ failed me for badly adjusted lights.

The Toyota dealer adjusted them, and all is good.

Frankly I think it may have been a side-effect of the auto-levelling; maybe I went in with the dial in the wrong place.

Just got latest WOF direct at the dealer. No issues found at all. (And I'd let the WOF be lapsed for 3 Months before I bothered taking it in).

did they test with no driver in the car? :Oops:

[avgas]

2 years in a row VTNZ failed me for badly adjusted lights.

The Toyota dealer adjusted them, and all is good.

Frankly I think it may have been a side-effect of the auto-levelling; maybe I went in with the dial in the wrong place.
I had good fun with this when they (vtnz) were going to fail the focus for a wof.
Told them the headlights would adjust to my veiwing angle, got in the car, started it up and told them by slowly lifting my head up it would adjust the angle.
Got them to stop me when the level was right.

Old fella thought it was pretty amazing, asking me where the camera was etc until I showed him the little adjustment dial on the dash :laugh:

Certainly made my day.

[Katman]

Anyone who believes that the average New Zealander will, of their own volition, pay particular attention to the road-worthiness of their car is deluding themselves.

They will drive them until something breaks.

[GingerMidget]

Anyone who believes that the average New Zealander will, of their own volition, pay particular attention to the road-worthiness of their car is deluding themselves.

They will drive them until something breaks.

Speaking from personal experience?

[Katman]

Speaking from personal experience?

Yes actually.

I see plenty of examples of serious faults on motorcycles that the customer was not even aware of.

[oneofsix]

Yes actually.

I see plenty of examples of serious faults on motorcycles that the customer was not even aware of.

As already discussed, now they rely on the WOF system. When that blankie is removed they have to look after themselves. As the article pointed out we have the most regular checks and no or much reduced checking works elsewhere. Cricky we even take the Japanese cast offs as safe on our roads and their checking is a lot less often than ours, looks like they sell them to us when they require checking.

[GingerMidget]

As already discussed, now they rely on the WOF system. When that blankie is removed they have to look after themselves. As the article pointed out we have the most regular checks and no or much reduced checking works elsewhere. Cricky we even take the Japanese cast offs as safe on our roads and their checking is a lot less often than ours, looks like they sell them to us when they require checking.

Thats precisely why our imported cars have reasonable miles on them already. Once they get to the stage where they need checking, it becomes too much like hard work and we get them. I'm not complaining, but there is a serious lack of maintenance done to cars there. Think were bad here Katman? We ain't got nothin' on the japanese. They buy cars, ignore them, then sell them once they get 'too old'

[FJRider]

The fog light rule is stupid BTW.

It is not just Fog lights ... Any light fitted, or light fittings (ie:a light base) ... must work. In such cases ... if the light is not required for a WOF (like an indicator) easiest option is to remove it.

[GingerMidget]

It is not just Fog lights ... Any light fitted, or light fittings (ie:a light base) ... must work. In such cases ... if the light is not required for a WOF (like an indicator) easiest option is to remove it.

This.

The cover on one of my fog lights somehow ended up shattering all over the garage floor and come wof time, we just pulled both out. That was back in november I think, and they still haven't gone back in.

[ducatilover]

It is not just Fog lights ... Any light fitted, or light fittings (ie:a light base) ... must work. In such cases ... if the light is not required for a WOF (like an indicator) easiest option is to remove it.
Yet, to my knowledge, hazard lights don't have to work.

[Scuba_Steve]

oh well come Oct, intelligent rules finally come in & optional lights no longer have to work, as they've finally worked out optional lights are fucking optional!!!

[FJRider]

You more cynical than me :woohoo:

I have my moments .... <_<


You have hit on the one thing that worried me, why would he be taken money away from businesses? but as you point out he could be taking it off the small business to eventually give it to big business and that makes sense.

The supposedly stringent, consistant test is not always that. As some members here on this site have already stated. The testing stations will be more of a money spinner ... if everybody has to use them. (Privatisation later ???) Don't plan on them being any cheaper though. They want older cars off the roads ... one way or another.


Get pulled over and failed by the cops or dedicated safety force and the only way back on the road is to get a full VIN type check at VTNZ even though it was only an indicate bulb blown. :pinch:

Sounds like the Boy-racer problem may be at the heart of the issue ... and the soloution.
Get pulled over ... obvious issues and it's towed.

Released to be tested only (at YOUR cost) or crushed if the fine/storage/towing fee isn't paid. Forget the three strikes bullshit.

[bsasuper]

Current system keeps the dangerous shit off the road(well the ones that are legal), I say just cap the cost.

[FJRider]

Yet, to my knowledge, hazard lights don't have to work.

They are usually the indicator lights, connected by a separate switch. Hazzard lights (as a separate item) were never included in the required item list. Not seen as any more of a safety item, than a High-vis vest for cars.

[Scuba_Steve]

The supposedly stringent, consistant test is not always that. As some members here on this site have already stated. The testing stations will be more of a money spinner ... if everybody has to use them. (Privatisation later ???) Don't plan on them being any cheaper though. They want older cars off the roads ... one way or another.


ah dude, their already privatized MTA (owners of VTNZ chain) is the reason we're still stuck with this worthless extortion of money


Current system keeps the dangerous shit off the road

:facepalm: You don't actually believe that do you???

[Kickaha]

:facepalm: You don't actually believe that do you???
I believe it keeps a lot more dangerous shit off the road than you may think just going by what i have seen, however most of it is people who are unaware of the problems with their vehicles until it is bought to their attention via a wof check

[Motu]

WoF

First time I've seen Warrant of Fitness spelt correctly on this site.

Changes to 12 months WoF was looked at about 20 years ago when the WoF and rego stickers were changed - it was going to be just one sticker, get your WoF and rego at the same time. (like Aust). At the same time continuous rego and no rego without WoF came in. Put in the too hard basket. There were still Hillman Hunters and HQ Holdens on the road then, and we were practically failing cars on rust every day....now I can go 6 months or more without a rust fail....depending on how many Falcons come in.

The new import rules mean our fleet is going to get older again - I think we should stick to 6 months for older vehicles.

[caspernz]

Anyone who believes that the average New Zealander will, of their own volition, pay particular attention to the road-worthiness of their car is deluding themselves.

They will drive them until something breaks.

Very true. :2thumbsup

Oil doesn't need changing, tyres don't need pumping up EVER, all you need to do is put petrol in and empty the ashtray...

[FJRider]

I believe it keeps a lot more dangerous shit off the road than you may think just going by what i have seen, however most of it is people who are unaware of the problems with their vehicles until it is bought to their attention via a wof check

I once had the misfortune to have to spen four hours waiting (Company vehicle, Company time) for a test. The entertainment was such ... it (almost) overcome the boredom. From Boy-racers to grandmothers. Non english speaking to not speaking at all ...

Testers comment/questions and replys given.

No indicators working (They were working on the way here ... I'll wiggle the wires)
Tyres rubbing on the guards (They passed the WoF like that LAST time)
Indicators please ... (I dont know where the switch is so I dont use them)
Your brake lights dont work ... (it's ok ... I never look at them)
There is too much rust in your car (it was there since it was new)

And that was only in the first half hour.

[pete376403]

My CB400 passed a wof with illegally thing discs on the front, because they don't have the specs, or a micrometer to measure them :facepalm: Only a slight safety issue... :blink:
They check bike disks because they can. They're not allowed to dismantle anything to check behind it (ie can't take car wheels off to check disks). Cars can pass a warrant with completely worn out disks if they stop the car during the test, but if bike disks are half a mil under the thickness stamped on them, its a fail.

Race bikes regularly have their disks skimmed right down to save weight, yet they still manage to stop.

[ducatilover]

They check bike disks because they can. They're not allowed to dismantle anything to check behind it (ie can't take car wheels off to check disks). Cars can pass a warrant with completely worn out disks if they stop the car during the test, but if bike disks are half a mil under the thickness stamped on them, its a fail.

Race bikes regularly have their disks skimmed right down to save weight, yet they still manage to stop.
VTNZ couldn't measure them, they don't have the equipment. :yes:

[Bassmatt]

Guy on the radio today from nzta or similar saying that the current average age of the fleet is 13 years and thats the oldest its ever been.
Which seems a little hard to believe.
He wanted to stick with the status quo due to all the old bombs apparently out there.

[Gremlin]

I'm really on the fence on this one. On one hand I have a Hornet 900, just gone into 6 month wofs now, but it's serviced 2-3 times a year, every year, very well maintained plus it's a freaken Honda. 102k on the clock, even the mechs reckon it feels like a bike with half the mileage. 6 month wofs are a waste of my time and money (coz 6 month wofs aren't half the price). On the other hand, I've seen cars going through with nasty failures. There are people out there who do absolutely no maintenance at all (worse still, have no idea what, if any, they should do, where things are etc), and if it wasn't for these checks they'd be out there trying to kill me.


Has anyone with a vehicle less than 5 years old failed a WOF?
Yep... my bike at the 2 year WOF (hehe Motu). Since the previous WOF a piece in the headlight had broken, meaning it could not angle down low enough (despite a lot of swearing and grunting). Once the shop had a look... new headlight under warranty.


Yet, to my knowledge, hazard lights don't have to work.
I may well stand corrected, but as the rules stand... if the light is fitted it must work to a required minimum (75% if the light consists of an array of LEDs) or be disabled completely.

[slowpoke]

Thats a bad idea. A really effing bad idea. You all know where I work, and I see some rather unloved cars. The current system is working fine, and does not need to be changed. This is progress for progress sake. Does he actually live in the real world?

I know my car will pass its next warrent, but I can't say that for everyone else. The one after that could be a bit dicey if I don't get the rust on the crossmember dealt to at some stage soon.

too long?
In short, bad idea.

It's working fine for your business, but not so fine for everyone else who has to pay the WOF cost, find the time to drop off the vehicle, then pick up the vehicle or wait 90min's in the queue during their lunch "hour" while the drive in/drive out testing station staff have their lunch, and/or having to drive 45min's to my nearest VTNZ, then doing all it again 2 months later with the second car...then the bike...then the trailer.

6 months is bollocks, I lived in WA for 12 years without this malarkey (roadworthy only required when selling vehicle or when "defected") and the world didn't stop turning.

It's not progress for progress sake, it's about saving the motoring public time and money. And businesses for that matter, how much productivity is lost due to extended "gotta-getta-WOF" lunchbreak's or early knock's? As for the "real world" we've one of the most stringent testing regimes known to mankind, which would suggest we are actually out of step with the "real world".

[Woodman]

Has anyone with a vehicle less than 5 years old failed a WOF?

My car failed its first warrant last year. All four tyres were worn, and i am ashamed to say that I didn't even think about looking at them
which makes me wonder how many others just wait till the WOF man says their tyres are worn, or is it just another job for the cops to do with their newly shrinking force.

[Scuba_Steve]

which makes me wonder how many others just wait till the WOF man says their tyres are worn, or is it just another job for the cops to do with their newly shrinking force.

more common than you think, the amount of time I've pointed out problems to the avg driver (those who only use the road cause they have to not cause they want to) only to have the response "it's good till the next WoF" or "the WoF will pick that up" :facepalm: & these problems have ranged from hard pulling brakes, bald tires, wobbly steering etc but no amount of telling them somethings wrong will work they'll just "wait for the WoF to tell them" after all nothings wrong till the WoF says it is :brick:.

[CookMySock]

[....] With VERY heavy fines if they are not.So this is an excuse to put the fines up?

[Pixie]

First time I've seen Warrant of Fitness spelt correctly on this site.

Changes to 12 months WoF was looked at about 20 years ago when the WoF and rego stickers were changed - it was going to be just one sticker, get your WoF and rego at the same time. (like Aust). At the same time continuous rego and no rego without WoF came in. Put in the too hard basket. There were still Hillman Hunters and HQ Holdens on the road then, and we were practically failing cars on rust every day....now I can go 6 months or more without a rust fail....depending on how many Falcons come in.

The new import rules mean our fleet is going to get older again - I think we should stick to 6 months for older vehicles.

I passed a (in the 'passing slower traffic' sense) Hillman Hunter yesterday.

Did those things ever catch many hill men?

[Zedder]

more common than you think, the amount of time I've pointed out problems to the avg driver (those who only use the road cause they have to not cause they want to) only to have the response "it's good till the next WoF" or "the WoF will pick that up" :facepalm: & these problems have ranged from hard pulling brakes, bald tires, wobbly steering etc but no amount of telling them somethings wrong will work they'll just "wait for the WoF to tell them" after all nothings wrong till the WoF says it is :brick:.

Yep, I've had mates who are the same, only with cars though. With their bikes, it's totally different (funny that).

So what to do with these types? Should there just be a massive safety education programme coupled with more WoF type cop check points and fining the hell out of offenders plus a WoF recheck?

[Voltaire]

Real motorcyclists service their own bikes, my Norton passes its WoF every time.
When I lived in Ireland 10 years ago motorcycles didn't even need to be tested :woohoo:.....my Kombi I brought with me being a campervan didn't either.....but I had to get an engineers cert for insurance.....200 euros....and 1000 euros for fully comp....:shutup:

[Scuba_Steve]

Yep, I've had mates who are the same, only with cars though. With their bikes, it's totally different (funny that).

So what to do with these types? Should there just be a massive safety education programme coupled with more WoF type cop check points and fining the hell out of offenders plus a WoF recheck?

Nope remove WoF. The problem is their reliance is on the "WoF will pick it up" system, it would be the same if we were forced to goto Doc every 6mths people would stop getting things like that discharge coming from their giggity area checked out cause "the Doc will pick it up come checkup time".
Make people responsible for their own vehicles & they might start being responsible. Oz has no problems running things like that, we shouldn't either.

WoF related accidents are very minimal & most of them are tyres & brakes both things the stupidest individual are capable of noticing when the reliance on WoF's is removed.

[Zedder]

Nope remove WoF. The problem is their reliance is on the "WoF will pick it up" system, it would be the same if we were forced to goto Doc every 6mths people would stop getting things like that discharge coming from their giggity area checked out cause "the Doc will pick it up come checkup time".
Make people responsible for their own vehicles & they might start being responsible. Oz has no problems running things like that, we shouldn't either.

WoF related accidents are very minimal & most of them are tyres & brakes both things the stupidest individual are capable of noticing when the reliance on WoF's is removed.

The problem is human nature. How do you make them more responsible?

[avgas]

my Norton passes its WoF every time
No offense to the might Norton, but I have noticed that a few of the wof guys have a nostalgia tint which leaves them with rose tinted glasses.
On a trip to the testing station once I saw a guy with a classic CB750 in original condition - flew through the wof without a single test.
Owner plodded off home with his chain just about touching the ground, 30 year old cracked tyres, headlight pointing at the sun, brake pads clogged with enough rust to make a polishing brush.......
But everything non-important (tank, guards, headlight etc) looked so shiny they passed him without a single test.

[Voltaire]

No offense to the might Norton, but I have noticed that a few of the wof guys have a nostalgia tint which leaves them with rose tinted glasses.
On a trip to the testing station once I saw a guy with a classic CB750 in original condition - flew through the wof without a single test.
Owner plodded off home with his chain just about touching the ground, 30 year old cracked tyres, headlight pointing at the sun, brake pads clogged with enough rust to make a polishing brush.......
But everything non-important (tank, guards, headlight etc) looked so shiny they passed him without a single test.

True....I had to re vin my 1978 Ducati at a VTNZ place and it passed with 20 year old tyres, brake pads, 30 year old brake lines, headlight dipping to right. I took it in to prove to myself that the system is bollocks......oh and it passed.
Year later took a modern SS in for a Wof and they said " next time you have it in being serviced get them to adjust the steering bearings" ......I was impressed he could tell that by tilting it up on the side stand and wiggling the steering.
My local place is pretty through....they check the footpegs, and pull lots of bits, check the headlight, and write down loads of numbers......
Testing Stations are where failed mechanics go for an easy life.....its just a cash cow.

[Asher]

I will admit I rely on WoF's to tell me if anything is wrong with my car, im not a mechanic and shouldnt be expected to know the condition of every part in my car.
Relying of a WoF maybe ignorant but they would do alot better at determining if the cars safe or not than I.

[FJRider]

So this is an excuse to put the fines up?

He did say he was "looking" at it.

But a total overhaul of the Registration/Safety check regulations is not out of the question.

[Scuba_Steve]

The problem is human nature. How do you make them more responsible?

By giving them responsibility. Not many choose responsibility we pass off as much as we can, but forced upon them most will become responsible.


I will admit I rely on WoF's to tell me if anything is wrong with my car, im not a mechanic and shouldnt be expected to know the condition of every part in my car.
Relying of a WoF maybe ignorant but they would do alot better at determining if the cars safe or not than I.

But that's the problem they're not. It's no more than an extortion of cash, & I'm sure even you could tell if your tires bald, your cars pulling to the left, or your headlights out.
WoF's don't check for serious faults they are simply a visual inspection (you know stuff you could do yourself), They are a cash cow for MTA nothing more.

[GingerMidget]

VTNZ couldn't measure them, they don't have the equipment. :yes:

Which one is this? I'll see if that can be sorted.

[Katman]

But that's the problem they're not. It's no more than an extortion of cash, & I'm sure even you could tell if your tires bald, your cars pulling to the left, or your headlights out.
WoF's don't check for serious faults they are simply a visual inspection (you know stuff you could do yourself), They are a cash cow for MTA nothing more.

What's MTA got to do with it?

Very few WOF issuing authorities take the responsibility as lightly as you suggest.

[Zedder]

By giving them responsibility. Not many choose responsibility we pass off as much as we can, but forced upon them most will become responsible.



But that's the problem they're not. It's no more than an extortion of cash, & I'm sure even you could tell if your tires bald, your cars pulling to the left, or your headlights out.
WoF's don't check for serious faults they are simply a visual inspection (you know stuff you could do yourself), They are a cash cow for MTA nothing more.

I think you're over simplifying things Scube. Why do testing stations use rollers for brake testing then? Joe Bloggs can't do that. Steering and suspension integrity is not a basic thing either.

Incidently, Australia has a younger vehicle fleet than NZ but some states still have random checks plus roving units that specialise in vehicle safety checks etc.

[oneofsix]

I think you're over simplifying things Scube. Why do testing stations use rollers for brake testing then? Joe Bloggs can't do that. Steering and suspension integrity is not a basic thing either.

Incidently, Australia has a younger vehicle fleet than NZ but some states still have random checks plus roving units that specialise in vehicle safety checks etc.

yeah about those rollers ... Don't take your car there if you have just changed the brake pads. Might only be a drum brake issue but after I had problems I found out about 3 others, one a qualified WOF tester himself, that had the same issue. The roller test said the car was pulling to one side when it was subsequently proved not to be.
BTW they missed the non-working indicator with their convex mirror check must have been about 3 times including the previous owner having it re-vinned. No it wasn't a blown bulb, it was a lack of electrical connections at all.
WOF a false sense of security.:facepalm:

[Zedder]

yeah about those rollers ... Don't take your car there if you have just changed the brake pads. Might only be a drum brake issue but after I had problems I found out about 3 others, one a qualified WOF tester himself, that had the same issue. The roller test said the car was pulling to one side when it was subsequently proved not to be.
BTW they missed the non-working indicator with their convex mirror check must have been about 3 times including the previous owner having it re-vinned. No it wasn't a blown bulb, it was a lack of electrical connections at all.
WOF a false sense of security.:facepalm:

You changed the drum brake pads, well there's your problem 6!

[Scuba_Steve]

What's MTA got to do with it?

Very few WOF issuing authorities take the responsibility as lightly as you suggest.

MTA are a large lobby group & the biggest profiteers from the WoF extortion.


I think you're over simplifying things Scube. Why do testing stations use rollers for brake testing then? Joe Bloggs can't do that. Steering and suspension integrity is not a basic thing either.

Incidently, Australia has a younger vehicle fleet than NZ but some states still have random checks plus roving units that specialise in vehicle safety checks etc.

Simplifying yes, over simplifying I don't think so?. Why do they use rollers??? & why does my land Rover pass??? 2-tonne vehicle with drum brakes all round, & lets not get into what passes on the Land Rover for steering, yet better vehicles are failed.

And so why not copy Oz??? they have no problems more than we do, yet they have a way better system. We already do stops, not hard to pull out those same roving units.

[Katman]

MTA are a large lobby group & the biggest profiteers from the WoF extortion.


How do they profit?

They aren't part of the WOF process.

[Scuba_Steve]

How do they profit?

They aren't part of the WOF process.

:facepalm: umm VTNZ, heard of them??? They're MTA


VTNZ was privatised in 1999 and the Motor Trade Association purchased the company.

There are now 86 VTNZ testing stations and nearly all carry out Warrant of Fitness inspections

[Katman]

Well how about that. Every day's a school day.

[nodrog]

Well how about that. Every day's a school day.

Now go and sit in the corner and await your fuckin spanking.

[Zedder]

MTA are a large lobby group & the biggest profiteers from the WoF extortion.



Simplifying yes, over simplifying I don't think so?. Why do they use rollers??? & why does my land Rover pass??? 2-tonne vehicle with drum brakes all round, & lets not get into what passes on the Land Rover for steering, yet better vehicles are failed.

And so why not copy Oz??? they have no problems more than we do, yet they have a way better system. We already do stops, not hard to pull out those same roving units.

I can't comment on your Land Rover apart from the fact that they're not the usual run of the mill vehicle and are very solidly built.

If Aussie have no problems more than we do (data?) then why do they even have random checks and roving units.

Don't get me wrong, I think the 6 monthly WoF checks are a pain but at the moment there's no alternative and I'm certainly not privy to the info that Big Gerry has. The good news is that he's going to review the situation. The bad news is that he's involved.

[Coldrider]

$250million spent annually on Wof checks at garages and testing stations. That's $250M in cash the government isn't getting to bleed from the average person, apart from GST.
So by relaxing the WoF system and letting natural forces at play, the Govt can redirect that cash from the automotive industry to the tax coffers in the form of heavy fines from vehicle users that do not maintain vehicles to a road worthy standard. <_<

[Woodman]

So if WoF's are going to extend, what will the garages do? $250 million dollars in lost revenue, thats a lot of families who put their life into their businesses missing a lot of income.

What will the garages do? maybe a "health check service" for your car, yea right its all good till they find something wrong and charge to fix it (imagine the rants on here). Some will have better "health check" standards than others but there will be no standards so the dodgy ones will now get the business. The system we have now is ok, we don't have to follow other countries because ours may well be the better system.

Always wondered how a garage that advertised that they were the most stringent WoF checkers would go.

[Ocean1]

The system we have now is ok, we don't have to follow other countries because ours may well be the better system.

If you compare those Aussie states with testing regulations with those without you'll find the difference in accident stat's is... Zero. Same with the US.

So, y'see in the real world it's only a better system for the Wof service suppliers, for the rest of us it's a waste of time.

[FJRider]

... for the rest of us it's a waste of time.

If it keeps a few idiot's wrecks off the road ... it is not a complete waste of time.

[Ocean1]

If it keeps a few idiot's wrecks off the road ... it is not a complete waste of time.

But it doesn't. They just don't Wof 'em.

I repeat: WoF compliance makes statistically zero difference to accident stat's.

So why have them?

[Motu]

:facepalm: umm VTNZ, heard of them??? They're MTA

The MTA is a non profit organisation - there is no way they can profit from VTNZ. The MTA bought VTNZ to stop the AA getting their hands on it - I'd hate to think what would've happen to WoF testing if the AA had got a toe in the door that way. The MTA bought VTNZ through asset sales - they sold their building to buy VTNZ. There is no way they can influence VTNZ, apart from the fact that VTNZ has MTA membership.

[bsasuper]

ah dude, their already privatized MTA (owners of VTNZ chain) is the reason we're still stuck with this worthless extortion of money



:facepalm: You don't actually believe that do you???

You must work for the papers, cutting up quotes to make a better story:facepalm:

[Scuba_Steve]

The MTA is a non profit organisation - there is no way they can profit from VTNZ. The MTA bought VTNZ to stop the AA getting their hands on it - I'd hate to think what would've happen to WoF testing if the AA had got a toe in the door that way. The MTA bought VTNZ through asset sales - they sold their building to buy VTNZ. There is no way they can influence VTNZ, apart from the fact that VTNZ has MTA membership.

Say what??? :blink:
"there is no way they can profit from VTNZ" "there is no way they can influence VTNZ" :wacko: :weird:
Are you reading what you are writing? or you you just have no fucking idea what you are on about???
MTA can't influence something they own :facepalm: what da fuck are you on???
As for not profiting, here from MTA's own site


7. Does the government provide any funding for MTA?
No, MTA receives no funding from Government. Instead it relies on a combination of member subscriptions and its own commercial activities to generate revenue.
I have no idea how you think MTA so much better than AA (unless you work for them or something) but you really need to understand what you are saying before saying it VTNZ doesn't just have MTA membership it is OWNED by MTA, MTA make a profit off VTNZ. Get it now???


You must work for the papers, cutting up quotes to make a better story:facepalm:

I'm not getting you, I quote anything relevant.

[bsasuper]

Say what??? :blink:
"there is no way they can profit from VTNZ" "there is no way they can influence VTNZ" :wacko: :weird:
Are you reading what you are writing? or you you just have no fucking idea what you are on about???
MTA can't influence something they own :facepalm: what da fuck are you on???
As for not profiting, here from MTA's own site


I have no idea how you think MTA so much better than AA (unless you work for them or something) but you really need to understand what you are saying before saying it VTNZ doesn't just have MTA membership it is OWNED by MTA, MTA make a profit off VTNZ. Get it now???



I'm not getting you, I quote anything relevant.

Yes you do, thats the point.A lot of people can say they know how to do something, because they have read a book on it, do you realise you fall into this catagory?

[Scuba_Steve]

Yes you do, thats the point.A lot of people can say they know how to do something, because they have read a book on it, do you realise you fall into this catagory?

yea I'm confused now, I don't read books (it destroys your eyes)

[davereid]

If you compare those Aussie states with testing regulations with those without you'll find the difference in accident stat's is... Zero. Same with the US. So, y'see in the real world it's only a better system for the Wof service suppliers, for the rest of us it's a waste of time.

Im not sure about that. Possibly we test to often.

But if the alternative is me going to the airport for my holidays, and I get caught roadside by a bunch of overall-ed NZTA inspectors determined to my vehicle inspection right then, I'd prefer the WoF check.

[Woodman]

Extend the yearly warrant testing for new cars to say 8 years. If our fleet gets newer then that would sorta sort a lot of it out anyway.

[Ocean1]

Im not sure about that. Possibly we test to often.

But if the alternative is me going to the airport for my holidays, and I get caught roadside by a bunch of overall-ed NZTA inspectors determined to my vehicle inspection right then, I'd prefer the WoF check.

Me too.

But the report I had pre-dated spot checks, and although WA police regularly check tyre tread depth it's far more blatently for the revenue than safety. So the raw data is accident rate with WoF and Without any checks. No difference.

And again, in the US I know cops will ping you for observed failures like tail lights, but I've not heard of roving WoF units.

So, for me I'd just as soon we left out the usual gratuitous pillaging of the motoring public's purse and did without both.

[Motu]

yea I'm confused

I agree - you haven't got a fucking clue.

[Zedder]

Me too.

But the report I had pre-dated spot checks, and although WA police regularly check tyre tread depth it's far more blatently for the revenue than safety. So the raw data is accident rate with WoF and Without any checks. No difference.

And again, in the US I know cops will ping you for observed failures like tail lights, but I've not heard of roving WoF units.

So, for me I'd just as soon we left out the usual gratuitous pillaging of the motoring public's purse and did without both.


See what you make of this Ocean1, it's a 2009 study of the effectiveness of Pennsylvania's vehicle safety inspection programme.

http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/inspections/Inspection%20Program%20Effectiveness%20Study.pdf

[FJRider]

Me too.

But the report I had pre-dated spot checks, and although WA police regularly check tyre tread depth it's far more blatently for the revenue than safety. So the raw data is accident rate with WoF and Without any checks. No difference.

And again, in the US I know cops will ping you for observed failures like tail lights, but I've not heard of roving WoF units.

So, for me I'd just as soon we left out the usual gratuitous pillaging of the motoring public's purse and did without both.

New Zealand Police to the roadside safety checks on groups of Boy-racers now ... And regular roadside stopping points (purpose built) for commercial vehicles too. With NO WoF tests as such ... we can expect such roadside checks in NZ ... for ALL vehicles, as a matter of course. To NOT expect them would be foolish ...

[GrayWolf]

Interesting bleating about rip off etc,
the UK was yearly MoT when I left there, and the 6 monthly thing seemed a bit OTT. I dont think it is.... It's not just about rust and ancillary lights.

Yearly WoF's? lets see, as a poster in KB was bleating about being ripped off by a bike shop, for chain sprockets etc??
Most people in this day and age CANNOT do bugger all under the hood of a car. The days of a packet of rizla papers to set the points gap are long gone. Vehicles are so damned reliable, they have'nt fitted starting handles since thee 60's and bike kick starts were gone by the early 80's. electronic ignition ND now computer management has rendered the 'home tinkerer' obsolete.
WoF's dont just catch faulty parts, vehicles that have been in an impact are seen, and anything that is a danger to the public with sharp protruding bits are failed. Wheel bearings, steering head bearings can as pointed out in the mentioned thead, GO in 5000km's. worn tyres? are picked up, or should be. worn ball joints can just 'appear' as far as the driver is concerned. Front wheel drive CV boots? leave one of those split for a whole year? I think the current 6 system of certain age yearly, then 6 monthly is quite resonable,,, maybe they are going to include rego with the WoF? and good on them if they do, catch all the slackers about their rego.

[schrodingers cat]

Now I'm referencing behaviour in the worlds largest free range lunitic asylum but here goes.

http://www.ehow.com/about_5158599_car-inspection-regulations.html

I'm not advocating such a lax system but it does explain a lot about the shitters you see on 'Pimp my Ride"

So no system is perfect and this being kb I don't expect consensus :killingme

It just shows that there are different standards everywhere.

Without question driver/rider behaviour, dismal skills and poor decision making are the biggest roadblokes to road safety. Despite all the puffery.

[Ocean1]

See what you make of this Ocean1, it's a 2009 study of the effectiveness of Pennsylvania's vehicle safety inspection programme.

http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/inspections/Inspection%20Program%20Effectiveness%20Study.pdf

I'll read it later. I note it's funded by the entity in question, namely the one currently carrying out the testing...

The Exec Summary confirms the regime's efficacy. And yet a couple of pages in I see:

“The analysis considered vehicle failure as reported at the fatal crash site as a
potential explanatory variable. Reporting of this variable across states appears to
be inconsistent, and the volumes available are not suitable to a full model formulation.”

… with which analysis they then proceed.

This also looks dodgy:

Table 4.1 Fatal Crashes per Billion VMT
2004 to 2007 Average

Group of States Weighted Evenly Weighted by State VMT
Without a Program 12.6 12.0
With a Program 11.1 11.1
Pennsylvania 12.7 12.7

Source: Fatality Analysis Reporting System 2004 to 2007 data, stratified by state inspection program
presence.


But I'm not certain the reports I read indicating the opposite were any better.

[mashman]

May as well just scrap the WOF entirely and bring in spot checks.

[Ocean1]

To NOT expect them would be foolish ...

Of course. I fully expect unrestrained buerocracy to produce unfounded ideological idiocy every chance it gets.

Your point?

[Zedder]

I'll read it later. I note it's funded by the entity in question, namely the one currently carrying out the testing...

The Exec Summary confirms the regime's efficacy. And yet a couple of pages in I see:

“The analysis considered vehicle failure as reported at the fatal crash site as a
potential explanatory variable. Reporting of this variable across states appears to
be inconsistent, and the volumes available are not suitable to a full model formulation.”

… with which analysis they then proceed.

This also looks dodgy:

Table 4.1 Fatal Crashes per Billion VMT
2004 to 2007 Average

Group of States Weighted Evenly Weighted by State VMT
Without a Program 12.6 12.0
With a Program 11.1 11.1
Pennsylvania 12.7 12.7

Source: Fatality Analysis Reporting System 2004 to 2007 data, stratified by state inspection program
presence.


But I'm not certain the reports I read indicating the opposite were any better.

Yes, it seems fairly inconclusive from both sides.

[Scuba_Steve]

I agree - you haven't got a fucking clue.

I see your've got rule #4 of interweb discussions down.
When your opponent has totally "shut down" your argument & proven you to be talking shit, always resort to personal attacks to try & distract from your "shut down".

[FJRider]

... Your point?

My point is ...

Those that interpret the (possible) abolishment of the WoF system, as being, there will no longer any testing done ... will be in for a big supprise.

The variations of possible implemented regulations (and associated penaltys for non complience) are endless ...

Almost endless to the stage, where discussion on the subject is ... pointless. I doubt if "Joe public" will be be asked for any input into any change ... nor will any discussion be entered into ... after (if) any changes are announced.

[Motu]

[QUOTE=Scuba_Steve;1130293416
When your opponent has totally "shut down" your argument & proven you to be talking shit[/QUOTE]

Yes, so sorry - I just wasn't aware of the calibre of my opponent. I'll just shut up now and move on.

[Voltaire]

I wish the Electrical industry was as good as milking the public as the motor industry. Some of the 'life threatening' wiring I have seen in houses over the years I could have made a fortune....but think of all the lives saved by ....'worn' wheel bearings, 'worn' ball joints, 'faded' seat belts, etc....what a con ...annual checks would be just as good.

[craigdek]

Where I come from there are no WOF's. Some of the vehicles on the road are death traps.

[aum108]

Many garages have the WOF check's as their primary income. And a tidy little earner for most.

Yeah right :laugh:

Many or most garages, in Hamilton at least, are full of mechanics who are really good at finding and even 'inventing' WOF problems. They make their real money fixing the defects, like some prick on Heaphy Terrace here who escalated a $180 brakes job to $700 over the course of one day and three phone calls, each time raising a different problem and estimating a yet-higher price.

It's like a restaurant - only a small part of the revenue comes from the food - just there to get people in the door. The real profit comes from the wine.

There's no way in hell I'd take any of my vehicles to a garage for a warrant. VTNZ is the only outfit I'd (even partly) trust.

[slofox]

VTNZ is the only outfit I'd (even partly) trust.

I wouldn't.

[avgas]

Where I come from there are no WOF's. Some of the vehicles on the road are death traps.
Where I come from they have WOF's. Some of the vehicles on the road ARE death traps.

Perhaps we should adopt the S.A. approach and atleast acknoledge the death traps on the roads rather than legislate around them?

[FJRider]

Yeah right :laugh:

Many or most garages, in Hamilton at least, are full of mechanics who are really good at finding and even 'inventing' WOF problems. They make their real money fixing the defects, like some prick on Heaphy Terrace here who escalated a $180 brakes job to $700 over the course of one day and three phone calls, each time raising a different problem and estimating a yet-higher price.



The guy that does the WoF for my car lists all the things that need done to it. I ask what needs done for the WoF ... he says nothing. I say ... Issue the WoF then ..... DONE.

[rastuscat]

Failed a WoF test on my cage at the North Shore testing station once. Rusty brake lines.

Took it to a brake fixer who said there was nothing wrong with it.

Took it back the next day to the testing station, passed without a murmur.

Any time you let a decision be made by a human you risk the human error problem.

Trouble is, any time you let a computer or a machine make a decision it removes the factor called discretion.

The argument is about how the discretion is exercised.

Can't have it both ways.

Donuts.

[Harry the Barstard]

I went in to get my wifes cage sorted for a WoF,

Failed as there was a dent (from a small rock that must have got flicked up) deeper than 1.5mm in the floor pan. He said it was structual... I said but there are holes in it so that water can drain... he said it was still stuctual.

So i jacked up the car, drilled an 8mm hole where the dent was (next to the other holes for water drainage). Took it back to VTNZ. Got me a shiney new WoF.

FWT?

[Scuba_Steve]

Any time you let a decision be made by a human you risk the human error problem.

Trouble is, any time you let a computer or a machine make a decision it removes the factor called discretion.

The argument is about how the discretion is exercised.

Can't have it both ways.

Donuts.

Ever played Fifa on a computing machine? Ref could be set from strict to pretty much "ignore all", random was also available. Discretion can be programed in...

Vodka.

[oneofsix]

Failed a WoF test on my cage at the North Shore testing station once. Rusty brake lines.

Took it to a brake fixer who said there was nothing wrong with it.

Took it back the next day to the testing station, passed without a murmur.

Any time you let a decision be made by a human you risk the human error problem.

Trouble is, any time you let a computer or a machine make a decision it removes the factor called discretion.

The argument is about how the discretion is exercised.

Can't have it both ways.

Donuts.

Discretion comes with guidelines. But what you seem to be talking about is a mistake. the tester said it was unsafe when it wasn't.
The problem in NZ is we give people so little personal power that when their job gives them a bit of authourity it tends to go to their heads.
Then you get the "corporate culture" factor, this is where the corporation/department takes an attitude that it will do things a certain way, perhaps that it would not look good if the corp was to admit to mistakes ('get it right first time' would be an example slogan such a corp would adopt), this then becomes a case where its staff then believe they can't be seen to have got it wrong so wont re-examine their decisions.


whiskey, argh no, got to ride, make that chocolate.