Business group in favour of motorway tolls

[mashman]

"Auckland Council's Business Advisory Panel says tolls would be the fairest way to meet the vast transport funding shortfall of almost $12 billion."

"Panel chairman Cameron Brewer expects people will complain they've already paid for the motorways."
(http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/13373299/business-group-in-favour-of-motorway-tolls/)

Haven't they already been paid for? Suck it up and have a nice day :)

[p.dath]

It sounds a little bit like the wrong term has been used. THis sounds like a congestion tax, especially since they suggest using different rates at different time of the day.

Don't know what I think of it. Everynone is sick of congestion on the motorways. The idea of this is to discourage people using private transport, and to spread out the times when they do use the motorways.

[mashman]

It sounds a little bit like the wrong term has been used. THis sounds like a congestion tax, especially since they suggest using different rates at different time of the day.

Don't know what I think of it. Everynone is sick of congestion on the motorways. The idea of this is to discourage people using private transport, and to spread out the times when they do use the motorways.

I think you're right in regards to it being a congestion tax and no doubt any number of excuses will be used to extract the $$$ from Joe Schmo, but more in line with a user tax (soooo many people, soooo much money, ca ching). I often thought it odd that they had a toll on the bridge crossing the clyde (yes, not here, but Scotlan) where the money used to build it had been paid for by the public and the bridge was put up for the reason of building a bridge and relieving congestion. 6, give or take a year, years ago they removed the toll after some pressure group finally got their way... so I understand it from a maintenance point of view, but then I would have thought that that would have been budgeted for anyway? however, $12 billion, sheehat that's a lot of money for fixing a few potholes... you folk up norf need to drive a little more carefully, you're costing the rest of us a fortune :).

[James Deuce]

Symptomatic of a Government that can't grow a big enough pair to charge us the 60% income tax they need to. Honestly, Local Government needs to be disbanded, it's failed, and artificial taxes like these and power prices increasing are just bullshit. Can every levy, fee, GST, toll, rates, water rates, school fees, doctor's bills and raise income tax to cover it. You'll have the same disposable income as you do now. None.

[Madness]

You'll have the same disposable income as you do now. None.

So there's not much chance of a 20% increase to my nil disposable income then?

[Swoop]

I'll take the subway into work then.:facepalm:


Or the integrated bus system that takes ONE type of bus card.:facepalm:

[mashman]

Symptomatic of a Government that can't grow a big enough pair to charge us the 60% income tax they need to. Honestly, Local Government needs to be disbanded, it's failed, and artificial taxes like these and power prices increasing are just bullshit. Can every levy, fee, GST, toll, rates, water rates, school fees, doctor's bills and raise income tax to cover it. You'll have the same disposable income as you do now. None.

Come on, the truth has no part in this thread and you can't just take people's money and give them nothing in return.

[Hitcher]

All forms of government in New Zealand are appallingly bad at asset management. The road as it exists has been paid for. But no provision has been made for its maintenance and upgrade in the future. Once it's munted or too small, people will object about having to shell out another big lump of dosh to put it right again, probably because they think it's already been paid for.

[awa355]

I was told years ago, that the Auckland Harbour Bridge was the first toll bridge in the world, that stopped the tolls after the bridge was paid for. The Tauranga - MT bridge is the only other toll bridge, I know of, to have removed the tolls after it paid for itself. ( I think).

[oldrider]

I was told years ago, that the Auckland Harbour Bridge was the first toll bridge in the world, that stopped the tolls after the bridge was paid for. The Tauranga - MT bridge is the only other toll bridge, I know of, to have removed the tolls after it paid for itself. ( I think).

Christchurch / Lyttleton tunnel count like a bridge? .... Same thing! :yes:

[paturoa]

Why not just use ALL of the fuel taxs, fuel duties and levies already collected. Oh and why not all of the RUCs (road user charges) as well.

I doubt if you'd ever find out the size of that lot as most of it goes into the consolidated account, and a significant proportion is then used for polly super-annuation and perks.

[Winston001]

Why not just use ALL of the fuel taxs, fuel duties and levies already collected. Oh and why not all of the RUCs (road user charges) as well.

I doubt if you'd ever find out the size of that lot as most of it goes into the consolidated account...

Yeah I have a funny feeling you are right about that. From memory the 4th Labour Government (Lange et al) said some money went to the Consolidated Fund to cover policing of roads and hospital treatment of road accident victims.

Whatever: no government in the past 30 years has suggested or agreed that all road-related taxes should go exclusively back into roads.

[Robert Taylor]

All forms of government in New Zealand are appallingly bad at asset management. The road as it exists has been paid for. But no provision has been made for its maintenance and upgrade in the future. Once it's munted or too small, people will object about having to shell out another big lump of dosh to put it right again, probably because they think it's already been paid for.

As far as Im concerned the rougher the roads are the better! And we absolutely dont need lily livered pinkos running and taxing things.

[Winston001]

Here's a radical thought - no new motorways in Auckland. That would encourage factories to develop on the city edge where people live. Or - build new plants outside New Plymouth, Wellington, Christchurch, and Dunedin. These cities already have good roads, operating ports (:D), plenty of workers, and existing affordable houses for those who move there.

No new tolls and taxes. Win win.

[RDJ]

Come on, the truth has no part in this thread and you can't just take people's money and give them nothing in return.

That's exactly what large numbers of people want (the government) to do. In the interests of "fairness". and as we have seen, once there are enough people eligible to vote who get more money from the government that they pay into it, they think the fairest thing to do is to (vote a government in that will) take more and more of everybody else's money so they get more for themselves. Democratic Socialism.

[Hoon]

I'm all for it. I commute from West Auckland to the CBD every day by car and traffic just keeps getting worse. I'm all for building more lanes and loops and rings but understand this costs money which I'm prepared to contribute. Tax people off the road I say.

However I was stuck at the ramp lights the other day and noticed 19 out of every 20 cars had only one occupant. I'm more for addressing the cause rather that the symptoms so reckon they should be targeting single occupant vehicles instead (bikes exempt of course). This will encourage car pooling or other alternatives and discourage people like me who do it because they can.

[Swoop]

I'm all for it. I commute from West Auckland to the CBD every day by car and traffic just keeps getting worse.
The roadworks at Lincoln Rd are causing a lot of it.

We need to simply finish the motorway system as originally intended and then call it "done".
Future spending needs to go into the public transport infrastructure.

Idea #1: ONE transport pass for ALL methods. Get onto ANY bus with the one type of card. (Tested recently with daughter #2 discovering she was stuck in a part of the city that was prejudiced against her hop card)

Idea #2: Get onto ferries, busses and trains with the same card. London can do this easily.

Idea #3: Have busses running on a "logical" system. (Partner tried to catch a bus from Takapuna shops into Britomart yesterday around 9.30am. Could it be done? No. Bus to the shithole of devonport and then a ferry)
(Fuck knows who would live on the NS and commute over the bridge nowadays...)

[blue rider]

re : single occupant...and rush hour congestion

If us worker drones were not forced to all start at the same time i.e. between 8:30 - 9:00 am would this not have an impact on congestion? in my job there is no need for me to show up at 8:30, i have raised this issue with my manager, however as everyone at the office starts at that time, so do I :facepalm:

How about business invests in Teleworking, again my job could easily be done from home (and i guess there are many more options for Tele working not just the odd Account Manager) , but it is too 'expensive' to set me up with access etc. It is cheaper for business if I carry the costs of riding/driving to work.

Toll roads are the cheapest (unless one has to pay for the use) option for government to get out of their responsibility to build/maintain a functioning infrastructure. However this is what I pay taxes for...!

But I can understand Business arguing for creating / building and then running Toll Roads........whammy, whammmy and some more whammy!laughing all the way to the bank.

and puplic transport in New Zealand? :killingme:

[avgas]

I was told years ago, that the Auckland Harbour Bridge was the first toll bridge in the world, that stopped the tolls after the bridge was paid for. The Tauranga - MT bridge is the only other toll bridge, I know of, to have removed the tolls after it paid for itself. ( I think).
Tauranga Harbour Bridge paid for Route P,K,J as well as many other things.
The bridge was paid off in the 80's - but the toll remained until 2001ish I think.

Auck H.Bridge toll was removed to "grow" the North Shore and increase its value........but now its done too good a job as half of south africa and china want $500+K for a 3 bedroom house thats 45 minutes from civilisation....... (more than west and south). Bring back the harbour bridge toll I say - and use the money to build a second access way north.

[avgas]

puplic transport in New Zealand? :killingme:
We used to be very good at it - in fact in my life time I remember catching the train to family all over the show before I got a motorbike.

We need that back. The only way to get it back is bums on seats in trains.
Only way I see that happening is if it gets cheaper.

So I would be all for a congestion tax if it did something to remove the congestion..........like a severly discounted public transport network.
Charge me a $2 to drive a car into town, but use that $2 to discount someones bus/train fare.
May even convince me to get back on a bus/train.

[Hoon]

We used to be very good at it - in fact in my life time I remember catching the train to family all over the show before I got a motorbike.

We need that back. The only way to get it back is bums on seats in trains.
Only way I see that happening is if it gets cheaper.

Yep our public transport was pretty good in the early 90's when I stopped using it. I blame the influx of cheap jap imports making vehicles more accessible and public transport obselete. I agree we need more bums on seats but cheaper isn't the only way. By making public transport more attractive (or other methods less attractive i.e. taxing ppl off the roads) we can acheive the same effect.

[mashman]

re : single occupant...and rush hour congestion

If us worker drones were not forced to all start at the same time i.e. between 8:30 - 9:00 am would this not have an impact on congestion? in my job there is no need for me to show up at 8:30, i have raised this issue with my manager, however as everyone at the office starts at that time, so do I :facepalm:

How about business invests in Teleworking, again my job could easily be done from home (and i guess there are many more options for Tele working not just the odd Account Manager) , but it is too 'expensive' to set me up with access etc. It is cheaper for business if I carry the costs of riding/driving to work.


School holiday traffic volume shows that very well.

Absolutely... but taking it one step further perhaps, as is my bent, how about putting up "data centres" on the outskirts, or further out of the city? Biggish offices with individual pods that hook into a central backbone allowing people to log on and almost be in the "head-office". You'd only need to go into the city if you really had to. The tech is available, shame it costs money... whereas under a NOW system it'd be free :killingme

[blue rider]

We used to be very good at it - in fact in my life time I remember catching the train to family all over the show before I got a motorbike.

We need that back. The only way to get it back is bums on seats in trains.
Only way I see that happening is if it gets cheaper.

So I would be all for a congestion tax if it did something to remove the congestion..........like a severly discounted public transport network.
Charge me a $2 to drive a car into town, but use that $2 to discount someones bus/train fare.
May even convince me to get back on a bus/train.

i do believe transport needs to be approached from more than just the lazy option


A. Diminish Rush Hour. This involves business and their participation in removing stale and unflexible start/end time for office worker - the one person per car dilemma and main contributor to blocked motorways, why do we all have to start at the same time? Because its convenient? is it?

B. Congestion tax on certain vehicles, i am looking at the huge vehicles carrying soccer mum and kids....really in the city is it needed, than the stinky things that smoke like they are run on wood? Surely there are other examples, but cars bore me. so there.

C. Tax return on spending for Public Transport for workers. Considering that a monthly bus ticked in Zone A - inner cost me about 120 a month two years ago! for unreliable service, crappy buses, unfriendly drivers and a more or less flexible schedule of arrival/departure times.
Monthly bus Tickets are a huge costs especially for those in the outer subburbs and those on part time but non fixed shifts. They might only work 30 hours per week, but still have to pay full price. Ouch!
If at least i can claim some of the expense as business expense (work related expense) back, i and they might be inclined to put up with the hassle and travel by bus/train. And yes, it is a business expense.

C.1.And as mentioned earlier on, logical time tables and routes. A work commute of 4 k's will take me from Royal Oak to New Market and from there to Green Lane. Total commute (best scenario) 1 hours. I can walk the distance in less then 40 minutes.

D. Proper cycle ways...I know...lycra n shit, but cheap and healthy and affordable. But cycle lanes are a must so anytime a new road is build a cycle land should be included ....and education (:shutup:)

I am just saying that increasing the cost for Mrs and Mr Ordinary Citizen is lazy policy and will actually price people out of participating in every days life. the poor sobs who are stuck in suburbia and who need a vehicle just to buy milk are going the first ones to pay through their nose just to go to work? How can that be fair?

Disclaimer, one reason i live in the city is that I don't need a car to go to work, i have walked/cycled and bused to work for over 10 years in auckland and only last year started biking to work. btw, my commute is pathetic, and i might be moving to the country side to have more fun when going to work amongst other reasons :yes:

Also I am a leftie, hippy chick with a Union Card. ;)

[blue rider]

School holiday traffic volume shows that very well.

Absolutely... but taking it one step further perhaps, as is my bent, how about putting up "data centres" on the outskirts, or further out of the city? Biggish offices with individual pods that hook into a central backbone allowing people to log on and almost be in the "head-office". You'd only need to go into the city if you really had to. The tech is available, shame it costs money... whereas under a NOW system it'd be free :killingme


La belle Verte

for your viewing pleasure ( i do not know if the english tanslation is any good, only ever saw it in french) one of my most favorite films of all times

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5CmMm_SRpM (part 1) _ all others should be on you tube as well.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0115650/

[pete376403]

How about business invests in Teleworking, again my job could easily be done from home (and i guess there are many more options for Tele working not just the odd Account Manager) , but it is too 'expensive' to set me up with access etc.:

He's bullshitting you, or someones bullshitted him and he's not interested in findng out otherwise. If your company in on the 'net and has a decent firewall, then it's most likely got VPN capability already. The VPN client is part of your (Windows) operating system of your PC at home.If you are on broadband at home and run a serious anti virus program, there's no reason why you can work from home. My employer runs a Mako firewall - adding a VPN user takes about 5 minutes.

[blue rider]

He's bullshitting you, or someones bullshitted him and he's not interested in findng out otherwise. If your company in on the 'net and has a decent firewall, then it's most likely got VPN capability already. The VPN client is part of your (Windows) operating system of your PC at home.If you are on broadband at home and run a serious anti virus program, there's no reason why you can work from home. My employer runs a Mako firewall - adding a VPN user takes about 5 minutes.



it has nothing to do with technical abilities and cost....it has to do with Power, and super vision. I could do my job in less then eight hours and that would not be right.
i have long ago stopped looking for a manager with brain and the balls to use it. most of them are just arse kissers and boot lickers. this is why they get to where they are.

[nzspokes]

I'm all for it. I commute from West Auckland to the CBD every day by car and traffic just keeps getting worse. I'm all for building more lanes and loops and rings but understand this costs money which I'm prepared to contribute. Tax people off the road I say.



LOL, why bother. there is a great cycleway all the way into town. When I lived in Glendene I rode a bicycle into Hobson st everyday. Theres no hills and most of the time you go faster than people in cars.

[Asher]

A. Diminish Rush Hour. This involves business and their participation in removing stale and unflexible start/end time for office worker - the one person per car dilemma and main contributor to blocked motorways, why do we all have to start at the same time? Because its convenient? is it?


Wouldnt everyone having to be at the same place at the same time promote car pooling? and those who can and dont deserve to sit in traffic for half their day.

[mashman]

La belle Verte

for your viewing pleasure ( i do not know if the english tanslation is any good, only ever saw it in french) one of my most favorite films of all times

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5CmMm_SRpM (part 1) _ all others should be on you tube as well.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0115650/

here's the full movie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4Y85-rexgk&feature=relmfu) (thanks for the link, cannot spread for you again etc...)... the subtitles seemed sensible enough, the odd smelling mistake here and there and not really my kind of movie I guess, as nice as it was... but damn I wish I had those "powers", t'would make things a damned site easier :laugh:


Wouldnt everyone having to be at the same place at the same time promote car pooling? and those who can and dont deserve to sit in traffic for half their day.

That's the thing though, we go into work over a period of 3 hours or so and work variable length days, so it's not always convenient to share 1 car between 4 people. Tis time to move business oota the city in some form or other. Tis by far the cheaper way of doing things. I lubs my Prila for not gettin stucks in de twaffic

[Zedder]

it has nothing to do with technical abilities and cost....it has to do with Power, and super vision. I could do my job in less then eight hours and that would not be right.
i have long ago stopped looking for a manager with brain and the balls to use it. most of them are just arse kissers and boot lickers. this is why they get to where they are.

I'm not surprised at your comments at all blue rider.

While teleworking/commuting is on the increase overseas, here it is probably the last thing on managers' minds.

The main cause, which is obviously to the detriment of business and the economy, has been cited as lack of support from top management for the concept. It seems New Zealand just isn't ready for such a "radical" paradigm shift despite the benefits.

[avgas]

Yep our public transport was pretty good in the early 90's when I stopped using it. I blame the influx of cheap jap imports making vehicles more accessible and public transport obselete. I agree we need more bums on seats but cheaper isn't the only way. By making public transport more attractive (or other methods less attractive i.e. taxing ppl off the roads) we can acheive the same effect.
To be brutally honest its a double edge sword using punishment to change something. While 50% 'give up' and fall in line, 50% will always rebel.
This is why we have a freeloader system - because they 'shouldn't have to pay' apparently.

There is the other side to this (which has already happened), if things get 'too hard' in the city - people and businesses pack up their bags and move out. Congestion tax could make the worse.
I know of many companies that have moved out of where they were to where they are in East Tamaki/Takapuna (etc), purely due to parking. Many of them are large (global) firms.

There needs to be something positive to replace the negative, otherwise you will lose more people into the city than you gain. I already book most of my weekday meetings in cafe's out of town rather than in town where I have to deal with the BS of parking. With the advent of more and bigger supermalls - soon people won't have any reason at all to go to the CBD except to appear in court :facepalm:

[Gremlin]

Telecommuting can work for some jobs, but others, it's a whole lot easier to communicate when all 5 people are within earshot.

On the other hand, I support plenty of users who do telecommute from home and from around the world, including home office setups of printers, internet connection, desktop etc. Some also use it to shift their working hours, getting some work done early, then gym and into the office missing the rush hours.

That said, rush "hour" isn't really correct in Auckland anywhere. If there is a bad enough accident as the motorway is recovering, rush hour for the afternoon begins. Friday is also worse and the Southern (I use that one the most) is usually building by 2.30pm, if not earlier. Travelling around the city to sort things, I know I'd go mental if I was stuck in a car trying to get things done.

[Winston001]

I'm not surprised at your comments at all blue rider.

While teleworking/commuting is on the increase overseas, here it is probably the last thing on managers' minds.

The main cause, which is obviously to the detriment of business and the economy, has been cited as lack of support from top management for the concept. It seems New Zealand just isn't ready for such a "radical" paradigm shift despite the benefits.

Not really. The United States tried to move towards telecommuting 10 years ago: hot desks, virtual offices, small buildings. And it didn't work.

The reason is quite simple - we are human beings. Social animals. We like to mix with each other, work together, lunch coffee together, share our day with other people.

For the same reason shopping malls are still being built despite online shopping. People like to browse and chat, see who else is about.

Don't get me wrong, there are people who telecommute and the number is growing. However a business needs its staff to feel they are a valuable part of the system, to have loyalty, and to be counted among the group. Working at home alone doesn't satisfy that so most businesses are still going to need a central physical place which everyone can identify with and feel welcome at.

[Zedder]

Not really. The United States tried to move towards telecommuting 10 years ago: hot desks, virtual offices, small buildings. And it didn't work.

The reason is quite simple - we are human beings. Social animals. We like to mix with each other, work together, lunch coffee together, share our day with other people.

For the same reason shopping malls are still being built despite online shopping. People like to browse and chat, see who else is about.

Don't get me wrong, there are people who telecommute and the number is growing. However a business needs its staff to feel they are a valuable part of the system, to have loyalty, and to be counted among the group. Working at home alone doesn't satisfy that so most businesses are still going to need a central physical place which everyone can identify with and feel welcome at.

It pays to stick with the facts.

Teleworking/commuting is alive, well and growing in the USA and has been for many years.

The number one reason (backed up by research) why New Zealand managers do not allow it more here is suspicion of their workers.

[Bald Eagle]

why New Zealand managers do not allow it more here is suspicion of their workers.


and possibly our less than stellar broadband for vpn connectivity :facepalm:

[avgas]

Build me a fricken monorail!