NOW - New Ordered World

[mashman]

I'm done... After 5 - 6 weeks of rewrites I realise that I'm wholly too close to the subject. Groans at the ready folks. NOW is here :)

I need help, aha I know, but the site needs a set of fresh perspectives, a lighter touch, to make more sense etc... and the subject is huge in its own way. To that end if there are any folk on here that understand the idea and would like to contribute their own ideas, obliterate my pages with page rewrites, site colours etc... then I'll be more than happy to post them up. It may go nowhere, it may go somewhere and from a selfish perspective it's almost a weight off to finally get it out in the open, oooo er, even in its limited form. I can extend it with sub menu items etc... but in 2 weeks time I'm going to send it out to every political and media related email address I can find. If you have any lists of email addresses, please drop me a PM ta.

The site needs a touch that I don't have and I know that there are those of you out there that do, so contribute or not, it's up to you...

NOW Stupid, not NWO (http://www.now-nz.com/)...

[speights_bud]

I opened the page and saw blah blah blah big blocks of text & couldn't be arsed reading into to find out the few basic essential points of what the link was actually all about, so if i cant be arsed why would a political person give any time to bother deciphering it? clicking around i did see something about less law etc which would put most of the politicians out of work so they wont be interested... my 2c

[The Singing Chef]

I'm done... After 5 - 6 weeks of rewrites I realise that I'm wholly too close to the subject. Groans at the ready folks. NOW is here :)

I need help, aha I know, but the site needs a set of fresh perspectives, a lighter touch, to make more sense etc... and the subject is huge in its own way. To that end if there are any folk on here that understand the idea and would like to contribute their own ideas, obliterate my pages with page rewrites, site colours etc... then I'll be more than happy to post them up. It may go nowhere, it may go somewhere and from a selfish perspective it's almost a weight off to finally get it out in the open, oooo er, even in its limited form. I can extend it with sub menu items etc... but in 2 weeks time I'm going to send it out to every political and media related email address I can find. If you have any lists of email addresses, please drop me a PM ta.

The site needs a touch that I don't have and I know that there are those of you out there that do, so contribute or not, it's up to you...

NOW Stupid, not NWO (http://www.now-nz.com/)...

Maybe some more visual aids wouldn't go astray, even just a picture of something vaugely resembling what you are talking about as it is a lot of text.


I opened the page and saw blah blah blah big blocks of text & couldn't be arsed reading into to find out the few basic essential points of what the link was actually all about, so if i cant be arsed why would a political person give any time to bother deciphering it? clicking around i did see something about less law etc which would put most of the politicians out of work so they wont be interested... my 2c

Yea I had the same problem, doesn't help that I have been playing Nintendo64 for the last 6 hours either. Although I think that more Politically minded people are used to reading more information and lots of text?

[Subike]

Agree with the second post, read a little of the first page,
boring as, nothing new here,
also not exciting

[speights_bud]

Maybe some more visual aids wouldn't go astray, even just a picture of something vaugely resembling what you are talking about as it is a lot of text.



Yea I had the same problem, doesn't help that I have been playing Nintendo64 for the last 6 hours either. Although I think that more Politically minded people are used to reading more information and lots of text?

Yea, i drove 4 hours this afternoon so pretty similar frame of mid, though politically minded people probably used to reading lots of information it'd probably mean they are less interested as its too much like hard work

[Subike]

Sorta sumthin like this


What will this website try to convey?
It's pretty straight forwards really and whilst it's easier to communicate verbally,
it's nigh on impossible to communicate with millions of people
How do you do that when they dont want to listen?
Then to have them make up their own minds.
Based on the information in the following pages as individuals.

Each page of information outlines a part of an idea.
If you understand the idea, then I encourage you to pass the website on to others,
in the hope that they too will come to understand a very simple truth.
A truth that has always been there, but due to social convention, a truth that is sadly overlooked.
This site is aiming to put the NOW in kNOWledge.
to offer a well known yet misunderstood world view.
TOooo dramatic eh. Not really.


Pluss addressing the recipient as stupid in the title,
will stop most of your readers at that point,
They dont want labels or to be belittled

[The Singing Chef]

Yea, i drove 4 hours this afternoon so pretty similar frame of mid, though politically minded people probably used to reading lots of information it'd probably mean they are less interested as its too much like hard work

That's true, can but hope I guess. So maybe condensing down the text and making more to the point statements?

[Fatt Max]

I believe you need to be congratulated for a thought provoking website that conveys a myriad of ideals, idealism's and various other 'schools' of thought. You have shown yourself to have the guts and motivation to put this out there, small minded tyre kickers and knockers who dont have the balls to do the same can stay by the side of the road.

Well done mate, I will follow this with interest

[mashman]

I opened the page and saw blah blah blah big blocks of text & couldn't be arsed reading into to find out the few basic essential points of what the link was actually all about, so if i cant be arsed why would a political person give any time to bother deciphering it? clicking around i did see something about less law etc which would put most of the politicians out of work so they wont be interested... my 2c

I guess the idea is to get people discussing the topic so that fewer have to read it, as it's an "idea" that can be understood pretty quickly and can be made very much your own very quickly. Praps each page should have a stripper reading the text :eek: hmmmmmmmmmm.


Maybe some more visual aids wouldn't go astray, even just a picture of something vaugely resembling what you are talking about as it is a lot of text.


Will find some piccies of dying or dead kids, that seems to work for a nano second or two :). I was trying to stay away from piccies to keep the pages shorter, but I get what you mean. Pics and sound bites?


Agree with the second post, read a little of the first page,
boring as, nothing new here,
also not exciting

I was trying to stay away from lesbos and tits tits tits :)... I fully agree that it isn't a sexy topic and there are very few ways to sex up living without money... I thought the pages were quite short as I could read them in under 5 mins and that's saying something :yes:

[Red39]

Phew, this has been a long time comin...must be a load off ;) will have a good read of it in the a.m. when my brain pretends to function. Well done Mashy :)

[mashman]

I believe you need to be congratulated for a thought provoking website that conveys a myriad of ideals, idealism's and various other 'schools' of thought. You have shown yourself to have the guts and motivation to put this out there, small minded tyre kickers and knockers who dont have the balls to do the same can stay by the side of the road.

Well done mate, I will follow this with interest

Cheers FM... I'm too stoopid to give a shit about what people think of me, specially when the idea is about everyone.

[Ender EnZed]

I read the whole thing.

I understand that you like the idea of a moneyless utopia but I still have absolutely no idea how it would (or could) work.

[mashman]

Sorta sumthin like this


What will this website try to convey?
It's pretty straight forwards really and whilst it's easier to communicate verbally,
it's nigh on impossible to communicate with millions of people
How do you do that when they dont want to listen?
Then to have them make up their own minds.
Based on the information in the following pages as individuals.

Each page of information outlines a part of an idea.
If you understand the idea, then I encourage you to pass the website on to others,
in the hope that they too will come to understand a very simple truth.
A truth that has always been there, but due to social convention, a truth that is sadly overlooked.
This site is aiming to put the NOW in kNOWledge.
to offer a well known yet misunderstood world view.
TOooo dramatic eh. Not really.


Pluss addressing the recipient as stupid in the title,
will stop most of your readers at that point,
They dont want labels or to be belittled

I see where you're going with that and that's sort of how the site started :laugh:, but it didn't really convey the idea I thought... an oversight perhaps, but I am too close to the subject. The stoopid isn't aimed at the reader, but I'll change it coz I see why it might seem that way.

[mashman]

I guess the "main" pages are the NOW and Benefits pages. NOW as in how it will kinda work and Benefits coz it's bulleted and give the benefits of the idea.

[Fatt Max]

Cheers FM... I'm too stoopid to give a shit about what people think of me, specially when the idea is about everyone.

Would disagree, please reword as follows:

Cheers FM you sexy bastard (optional)....I have the courage and conviction to throw up ideas that maybe, just maybe, all of us can benefit or at least be slightly enlightened from. But hey, this is KB where you can even get bollocked for trying to be nice to people.......and FFS never EVER say the word 'respect' on this site in case you get blown out of the water.....

Good work fulla, well done....:)

[mashman]

I read the whole thing.

I understand that you like the idea of a moneyless utopia but I still have absolutely no idea how it would (or could) work.

Cheers for taking the time and sorry for wasting it :yes:... that's my point in regards to being too close as everyone will want answers and clarifications to certain elements. Wish I could clarify it for ya. Or if you could outline certain areas of ambiguity I'll post the clarification (hopefully) in the FAQ's?

[Subike]

I was refering to the format not the content.
The content is good,
But laid out in old school format.
If on paper, then space is limited, and your format is expected,
But using the internet media allows you to upmarket you approach.
you can emphasis your points with out the need for gimmick attractors like girly pics (extreme example)
So experiment with your layout,
may make the whole thing that much more interesting, readable, and memorable
You might even get new age younger people involved because its not an old school text book read.

[The Singing Chef]

Will find some piccies of dying or dead kids, that seems to work for a nano second or two :). I was trying to stay away from piccies to keep the pages shorter, but I get what you mean. Pics and sound bites?


Haha dying kids could work, I mean it worked for KONY2012 :blink: It shouldn't make it to much larger with a couple of photos wrapped around with text?

I do find it easier to come back to each page and read and break from it though.

[mashman]

Would disagree, please reword as follows:

Cheers FM you sexy bastard (optional)....I have the courage and conviction to throw up ideas that maybe, just maybe, all of us can benefit or at least be slightly enlightened from. But hey, this is KB where you can even get bollocked for trying to be nice to people.......and FFS never EVER say the word 'respect' on this site in case you get blown out of the water.....

Good work fulla, well done....:)

sorry for missing the sexy bastard bit out, I feel less of a human being for it :innocent:. But to get an honest opinion, KB is the perfect place :) and I'm big and ugly enough to realise what I'm letting myself in for... who knows, there may well be others who feel the same and will contribute, there may not, but the ball is rolling, we'll see how far it needs to be pushed and with a fuckload of luck it'll free fall at some point and I can get back to surfin porn and defiling pies.

[schrodingers cat]

Too many words but even then struggles to convey the message

Desired outomes too remote and abstract

Too reliant on a single premise which, ultimatly, isn't that clever.

Fraid to tell you, a website won't change the world but I trust you feel better for getting it off your chest

[mashman]

I was refering to the format not the content.
The content is good,
But laid out in old school format.
If on paper, then space is limited, and your format is expected,
But using the internet media allows you to upmarket you approach.
you can emphasis your points with out the need for gimmick attractors like girly pics (extreme example)
So experiment with your layout,
may make the whole thing that much more interesting, readable, and memorable
You might even get new age younger people involved because its not an old school text book read.

The thing is, noone likes to scroll... how do you feel about slidey down boxes that show the text? I can develop and do layout, but I'm an abysmal layout designer :facepalm:

[ducatilover]

I'm going to offer you some fantastic advice Mashy old chap;

Site needs tits.

(Yeah yeah, I'm reading through it)

[mashman]

Too many words but even then struggles to convey the message

Desired outomes too remote and abstract

Too reliant on a single premise which, ultimatly, isn't that clever.

Fraid to tell you, a website won't change the world but I trust you feel better for getting it off your chest

Aye, it's likely gotten worse the more times it's been rewritten... hence to too close to it thing.

Getting to that level is creating more walls of text though. Maybe it needs it.

Single premise? I would have thought a single thing sorting a lot of things was "clever"?

OMG you've just shattered my world view... Not that much better getting it off my chest as life still goes on in the wrong direction :)... but I wasn't wholly expecting that to be the case.

[blackdog]

No time tonight big boy, but a quick scan has piqued my interest. Am happy to run an edit for you over the course of the next week or so. Having said that I think it was mostly on the money for grammar, punctuation and spelling.

Looking forward to see how this progresses.

[Woodman]

Ok, read it. Please indulge me a second.


So in the new order i am working in a factory making doodads for the export market which are paid for with money. Because I am in the factory all day how do I then obtain basic living stuff like food etc?

[mashman]

I was refering to the format not the content.
The content is good,
But laid out in old school format.
If on paper, then space is limited, and your format is expected,
But using the internet media allows you to upmarket you approach.
you can emphasis your points with out the need for gimmick attractors like girly pics (extreme example)
So experiment with your layout,
may make the whole thing that much more interesting, readable, and memorable
You might even get new age younger people involved because its not an old school text book read.

Just updated the now page with some really horrible blue thing, but if you click on it it expands a block of text. Better "feel"?

[mashman]

Ok, read it. Please indulge me a second.


So in the new order i am working in a factory making doodads for the export market which are paid for with money. Because I am in the factory all day how do I then obtain basic living stuff like food etc?

What are you doing in the factory all day ya dipshit? You're probably only going to have to work 4 or 5 hours for 4 or 5 days tops... that's said in the context of NOW where if needs be I'll do the other 4 or 5 hours per day 4 or 5 days a week and we both get extra time off to shop, or surf, or ride, or dance around like little pixies just coz we can. There will still be farmers making food, people canning food etc... and there will still be people delivering goods to supermarkets and there will still be people stocking shelves and there will still be people at the checkout (maybe not) but there will be people there to help you find wotcha need... who knows, praps you'll just order your food online and instead of stocking shelves they'll stock your reuseable boxes with your food, so less time trapsing around finding what you don't need. NOW offers plenty of different ways of doing things.

[Ender EnZed]

How does property work? How would one go about getting a new motorcycle from Japan?

[mashman]

How does property work? How would one go about getting a new motorcycle from Japan?

Possessions eh, heh, that's always the tricky one.

Bearing in mind that this is just 1 way to do it/look at it... Property will have a registered owner. You will have to maintain it. I assume you're talking about value though, in which case property will have a value, but only to those from overseas where you decide that you want to leave NZ. A cashing in yer chips sort of thing so that you leave with money. Essentially someone from overseas will buy your life in NZ.

The motorcycle is a little trickier. You will order it through a Government website as they are the overseas logistics folk and hold the money. They may well be buying a few of that model and may be able to get a discount. Unfortunately, yes there's always a catch, this will depend on how well the country is doing financially. Having said that I'm hoping that motorcycles will be "traded" in NZ. So if I wanted a retro scooter, for arguments sake, I would offer up the Prila as a form of trade, unless someone just didn't want to ride their bike and just offered it to anyone that wanted it. I would also hope that lending bikes out would become more common place where if I was going down south for a weeks tour with the family in the cage, the Prila could be lent out to whoever fancied riding the bike that week. It may encourage bike swaps etc... but new stuff would need to be bought/requested via the Govt. In the short term it could be that you have put in X amount of $$$ into the country's pot of cash and should really be able to have one if you really wanted to, but not too sure how that would work, I guess that comes down to the $$$ of which I think there should be plenty?

[schrodingers cat]

Single premise? I would have thought a single thing sorting a lot of things was "clever"?



At best it could be called elegant. Unfortunately the complexity of things means there is no silver bullet.

[avgas]

Hmmm the lack of visual aids means I turned off withing about 25 seconds.
Perhaps its just a monday thing.

As for using dying kids as one.......you will only detract the audience even more.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e2/Captain_Planet.jpg/250px-Captain_Planet.jpg
Likewise hippy images do nothing - if I wanted to save the planet I would kill all the humans.
Therefore later this week I will make you some (after consuming large amounts of coffee and reading said website properly).

Will cost you though. A recommendation/reference etc.
But be warned I am not some fancy artsy person.................my diagrams will make sense. Chuck me an email tonight (farrst*at*gmail) to remind me to relook at the website, and come up with some pretty pictures for ya.

Stew

[MSTRS]

What an utterly fantastic idea!!!

For the government, that is.

They would increase their control of the population 10, nay, 20-fold. We'd all become virtual slaves, working for our keep. And no resources to leave. Unless we owned property and a foreigner wanted it.

Let's face it. A Green Economy works in microcosm. But that is it. It becomes too unwieldy when trading one product for another, longterm. And how is time 'valued'? Once humans began to organise themselves in urban settings, there was no way to continue the old barter system, other than to put value on each and every thing via some method of transportable (and transferable) wealth exchange. Ie 'money'.

Sorry mate. You want the ultimate Communist state. And they've been working well for their people, eh?

[avgas]

What an utterly fantastic idea!!!

For the government, that is.

They would increase their control of the population 10, nay, 20-fold. We'd all become virtual slaves, working for our keep. And no resources to leave. Unless we owned property and a foreigner wanted it.

Let's face it. A Green Economy works in microcosm. But that is it. It becomes too unwieldy when trading one product for another, longterm. And how is time 'valued'? Once humans began to organise themselves in urban settings, there was no way to continue the old barter system, other than to put value on each and every thing via some method of transportable (and transferable) wealth exchange. Ie 'money'.

Sorry mate. You want the ultimate Communist state. And they've been working well for their people, eh?
Shhhhhhh:shutup: keep your mouth shut and reap millions from the soon to come bumper sticker business..........

[mashman]

What an utterly fantastic idea!!!

For the government, that is.

They would increase their control of the population 10, nay, 20-fold. We'd all become virtual slaves, working for our keep. And no resources to leave. Unless we owned property and a foreigner wanted it.

Let's face it. A Green Economy works in microcosm. But that is it. It becomes too unwieldy when trading one product for another, longterm. And how is time 'valued'? Once humans began to organise themselves in urban settings, there was no way to continue the old barter system, other than to put value on each and every thing via some method of transportable (and transferable) wealth exchange. Ie 'money'.

Sorry mate. You want the ultimate Communist state. And they've been working well for their people, eh?

Increase their control? I'm interested in how that's going to happen? The Government will implement law, the Justice department will ans the justice department is not going to be part of the Government. Just about every law we have will be thrown out and a new one put in its place. I reckon human beings will become freer than they have been in 2000 years. All they have to do is work, very similar to what they currently do but probably working less hours.

Why are people working for their keep? And you reckon that we're not employees/slaves of the country already? Interesting. Time isn't valued. Getting the job done is valued. If it takes 2 hours to clean the sewer each day, then those who clean the sewer only work 2 hours each day. Doctors may have to work longer (depending on how many we have and wether parient numbers drop).

I'm only mentioning Green because that's the efficient long term way to go and the direction that TPTB are wanting to go too, at some point. They're replacing fires with heat pumps n'est pas? The only reason we don't have mass Green technology is because of its cost. That will not be an issue if the local resources are free and wouldn't you rather have a cleaner atmosphere?

:rofl:@communist... Was society free under communism? Did you get free food from the supermarket? did you have to work to pay? There may well be more differences than you think... then again, you'd obviously need to be thinking first :innocent:

[mashman]

At best it could be called elegant. Unfortunately the complexity of things means there is no silver bullet.

I'm gonna have to disagree there. Things are only as complex as we decide to make them and as money hasn;t been able to "solve" poverty and hunger and reduce crime hugely and many other things listed on the Benefits page, and NOW can by removing 1 thing and rejigging a few others, then I'd say it was a Silver Bullet, especially in regards to hunger and poverty. Praps Pewter would be better :)

[mashman]

Will cost you though. A recommendation/reference etc.
But be warned I am not some fancy artsy person.................my diagrams will make sense. Chuck me an email tonight (farrst*at*gmail) to remind me to relook at the website, and come up with some pretty pictures for ya.

Stew

A recommendation/reference? Could be a bit dodgy knowing you...
Pah, I'm colour deaf as calling my artistic ability colour blind is an insult to the colour blind... anything above that is Gravy. Will drop you a mail later, cheers mate.

[Brett]

Too much text to read through to get the gist of what the site is about, will lose the audience very quickly. How about some infographics that can link to greater detail etc. Think about some more creative ways that you can disseminate the info you are trying to express. This will also help the site to look less boring. People like pictures and easily digested info. Good luck!

[James Deuce]

Oh noes! Someone is using the Internet for what it was intended, the free and easy exchange of ideas!

Fucking stop him! Someone organise a DoS attack, fast!

Illegitimum non carborundum;
Domine salvum fac.
Illegitimum non carborundum;
Domine salvum fac.
Gaudeamus igitur!
Veritas non sequitur?
Illegitimum non carborundum—ipso facto!

With thanks to Vinegar Joe.

[Zedder]

Ffs Mashman, here I was thinkin' you were working on your puns!

But seriously, I had a bit of a read and it's interesting (this type of thing is coming up more and more around the world) but very wordy.

Also, work on the nuts and bolts of implementation and, I'd be inclined to keep the bloody Government right out of the picture.

[MSTRS]

I'm only mentioning Green because that's the efficient long term way to go and the direction that TPTB are wanting to go too, at some point.

Not Green, as in environmentally 'good'. I mean Green Economy - which is essentially barter of goods or services between 2 or more individuals.
I have some carrots. You don't. You have some potatoes. I don't. We trade. But wait - there's more. I want some meat and you have an extra sheep and I can fix that irrigation pump of yours...
Etc.
I see that you don't quite mean that. You intend to do away with cash/choice, whereby the govt supplies all our needs in exchange for a bit of labour here and there. Which is the logical extension of a truly communist system.
Talk about handing ALL the control to TPTB.
What a nightmare...

[SPman]

I believe you need to be congratulated for a thought provoking website that conveys a myriad of ideals, idealism's and various other 'schools' of thought. You have shown yourself to have the guts and motivation to put this out there, small minded tyre kickers and knockers who dont have the balls to do the same can stay by the side of the road.

Well done mate, I will follow this with interest

Wot he said!

(I'm also lazy....)

[mashman]

Not Green, as in environmentally 'good'. I mean Green Economy - which is essentially barter of goods or services between 2 or more individuals.
I have some carrots. You don't. You have some potatoes. I don't. We trade. But wait - there's more. I want some meat and you have an extra sheep and I can fix that irrigation pump of yours...
Etc.
I see that you don't quite mean that. You intend to do away with cash/choice, whereby the govt supplies all our needs in exchange for a bit of labour here and there. Which is the logical extension of a truly communist system.
Talk about handing ALL the control to TPTB.
What a nightmare...

nooooooooooo... the government will have no real power, other than complete financial control over the country in regards to imports and exports, abuse of which will lead to VERY lengthy stays in the big hoose. Communities will hold their individual powers. The govt is just there to provide the communication and infrastructure, a glorified facilities department, not set day to day policy (individual bodies will do that), they really will have a lot less "power". NOW will very much rely on personal responsibility :shit:, not nanny state this is what you should do with your time.

I'm not trying to say that we'd do away with choice either, it's simply a matter of everyone pulling together to do what the country needs to have done without the money attached bias/strings/impairment etc... We all currently do the jobs we do, apart from you unemployed slackers :shifty:, and we would continues to do so, but instead of getting paid and going out and buying stuff, you get it for free and instead of paying tax/rego/fuel etc... you just work because something needs to be done. With any luck jobs will be shared providing a form of failover, rinse repeat and innovate our little asses off for all of us.

[MSTRS]

,,,it's simply a matter of everyone pulling together to do what the country needs to have done without the money attached ,,,

You assume that 'everyone' is altruistic enough to want to do that. '
Good luck with upending the "Me first" society that we have.

[mashman]

You assume that 'everyone' is altruistic enough to want to do that. '
Good luck with upending the "Me first" society that we have.

heh, I was thinking more along the lines of people listening to common sense :blink:... we'll still be bastards.

[flyingcrocodile46]

You assume that 'everyone' is altruistic enough to want to do that. '
Good luck with upending the "Me first" society that we have.

That is indeed the flaw in a nice plan. Very unlikely to work

[schrodingers cat]

I'm gonna have to disagree there. Things are only as complex as we decide to make them and as money hasn;t been able to "solve" poverty and hunger and reduce crime hugely and many other things listed on the Benefits page, and NOW can by removing 1 thing and rejigging a few others, then I'd say it was a Silver Bullet, especially in regards to hunger and poverty. Praps Pewter would be better :)

Agree. To disagree.

Chur

[mashman]

Agree. To disagree.

Chur

No :shifty:...

Images added, although there are probably better ones, they feel right.

[Spazman727]

I like your idea, but get an editor. In the first 2 paragraphs I noticed at least 2 spelling/grammar mistakes. I know a lot of people now days don't really car about correct spelling as long as you can understand what is being said, but for me it really puts me off as it makes me think that the writer doesn't care enough to get it right. Also, too much text.
It looks like you have put a lot of work into this and it would be a shame for people to switch off for this reason, and for the reason state several times above. Walls of text are not conducive to reading. I read acres of text for uni, and seeing a wall of text really puts me off.

Good luck.

[mashman]

I like your idea, but get an editor. In the first 2 paragraphs I noticed at least 2 spelling/grammar mistakes. I know a lot of people now days don't really car about correct spelling as long as you can understand what is being said, but for me it really puts me off as it makes me think that the writer doesn't care enough to get it right. Also, too much text.
It looks like you have put a lot of work into this and it would be a shame for people to switch off for this reason, and for the reason state several times above. Walls of text are not conducive to reading. I read acres of text for uni, and seeing a wall of text really puts me off.

Good luck.

I gotta say I can't find the smelling pisstakes, even the spellchecker is having trouble with that one. I grant you my grammar sucks, but that isn't going to fix itself by me staring at a page and reading it in exactly the same way time and time again :), could you be a little more specific? As for the wall of text, there is very little I can do about that... and there's about as much text on the page as there is on the page of a book, but I do understand that that is a recurring theme... just not sure how to address that really.

Cheers for the feedback

[onearmedbandit]

So gas is free right? And I've got a lot more time on my hands? And access to shared vehicles? So I can just go nuts filling up vehicle after vehicle as much as I like? But of course less than a sewer cleaner because I'm a doctor and have to work longer. But get to play less. And have the same toys.

[jonbuoy]

What if I want to work more than 4 hours a day? What if I want a big garage with a collection of bikes and cars not just a peoples house? What if I don´t want the government to decide what I drive and what house I live in, what food I eat, how often I eat out? If guys in Australia can do it why can´t I? Unless you close the borders you´ll be dealing with a huge brain drain. Nice idea, drop kicks and selfless socialists will love it, the rest will leave on the first flight out.

[Woodman]

Love the idea, but there are issues.

what if i work harder than all the others in my workgroup? does that mean i can get more from the free supermarket? probarbly not so what do i do? My work mates do fuck all and get the same so i will just slack off too. Soon the whole population will realise this is the case so then supervisors will be put in place to make sure we all work to a consistent and acceptable level. And who supervises the supervisors?

Can you see where this is going?

[jonbuoy]

Love the idea, but there are issues.

what if i work harder than all the others in my workgroup? does that mean i can get more from the free supermarket? probarbly not so what do i do? My work mates do fuck all and get the same so i will just slack off too. Soon the whole population will realise this is the case so then supervisors will be put in place to make sure we all work to a consistent and acceptable level. And who supervises the supervisors?

Can you see where this is going?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lada_Samara

[oneofsix]

Love the idea, but there are issues.

what if i work harder than all the others in my workgroup? does that mean i can get more from the free supermarket? probarbly not so what do i do? My work mates do fuck all and get the same so i will just slack off too. Soon the whole population will realise this is the case so then supervisors will be put in place to make sure we all work to a consistent and acceptable level. And who supervises the supervisors?

Can you see where this is going?

Currently if you work harder than others in your workgroup doesn't mean you will get paid more.

[jonbuoy]

Currently if you work harder than others in your workgroup doesn't mean you will get paid more.

Depends on your job, fruit pickers get paid by the kilo, roadworkers can get paid by the meter. Mashman where do self employed people fit in?

[mashman]

So gas is free right? And I've got a lot more time on my hands? And access to shared vehicles? So I can just go nuts filling up vehicle after vehicle as much as I like? But of course less than a sewer cleaner because I'm a doctor and have to work longer. But get to play less. And have the same toys.

Yup gas is free. Yup you have a lot more time on your hands. You have your own vehicle or a "borrowed" vehicle. You can go nuts filling up your vehicle as much as you like. All of those things apply to everyone irrespective of what you do for a living and for how long you decide to do it. You have to work for how long you have to work, bummer, that's your job.



What if I want to work more than 4 hours a day? What if I want a big garage with a collection of bikes and cars not just a peoples house? What if I don´t want the government to decide what I drive and what house I live in, what food I eat, how often I eat out? If guys in Australia can do it why can´t I? Unless you close the borders you´ll be dealing with a huge brain drain. Nice idea, drop kicks and selfless socialists will love it, the rest will leave on the first flight out.

Depends on your job, fruit pickers get paid by the kilo, roadworkers can get paid by the meter. Mashman where do self employed people fit in?


The choice over how long you have to work isn't necessarily just yours. It's a sort of job share where the more people there are that have your skills to do the required tasks, the less you will probably have to work. So if a job requires 10 hours per day to complete, if there are 5 of you doing that job, you'll only have to work 2 hours each. If you can acquire the items for your collection (individual trade perhaps), then that's entirely up to you to build a garage (or find someone to extend it for you).

The Government will have absolutely no say in what you drive or what you live in, they can only highlight the lack of resource available to obtain the items you require. Food will be exactly the same as we have, although we may cut down on shite imports, but in the short term little will truly change other than some of your wants. If people still want to be chefs and still want to open restaurants, then there will be places to eat and for free too, same with fashion and shopping etc... You'll be more than welcome to leave should you choose to want to be like an Aussie :). There may be some brain drain, but undoubtedly there will be a massive brain influx. I say that because research and development will be free from the budget constraints that hamper science. So I disagree that the brain drain will mean the loss of brains.

We will all be self employed essentially.



Love the idea, but there are issues.

what if i work harder than all the others in my workgroup? does that mean i can get more from the free supermarket? probarbly not so what do i do? My work mates do fuck all and get the same so i will just slack off too. Soon the whole population will realise this is the case so then supervisors will be put in place to make sure we all work to a consistent and acceptable level. And who supervises the supervisors?

Can you see where this is going?

If you work harder, you work harder. I was working last Friday and Monday, sometimes it's part of my job. The amount of time you put in doesn't entitle you to anything extra as all of our effort is pretty much as valuable as each others. If you value other people's contributuions less than your own, I'm sure we'll be able to reinstate some form of electro shock therapy to stop people from being such uppity twats, praprs we'll educate them instead... Can you see where I'm going with that? :innocent:

If we all decide to do feck all, then things don't get done... but at least people will be fed and housed without the worrying where the $$$ is coming from. As mentioned elsewhere, people are going to have to be trusted to do the right thing. If it doesn't work, then reinstate the monetary system and see how they prefer that option.

[Taz]

Right I've finally had enough time to read it all. It requires a huge mind shift and I am still digesting some of it. It sounds simple and workable. How would greed and ambition affect it? Lots to think about here.

[jonbuoy]

:blink: So the more people that share your job the less you have to work? Doesn´t sound fair on the doctors, surgeons, scientists etc.... Your running a bartering system as well? That will turn into a black market with a foreign currency like usd used as an easy way to trade, basically you´ve created Russia before the fall of the wall. Some people do contribute more to society than others, its not uppity its reality. NZ and the world doesn´t need more manual labour, it needs more skilled labour and a world population about half of what we have now.

[mashman]

Right I've finally had enough time to read it all. It requires a huge mind shift and I am still digesting some of it. It sounds simple and workable. How would greed and ambition affect it? Lots to think about here.

I dunno about it taking such a large shift in state of mind, primarily because I have explained it to a few people and they get the idea and would happily live in that type of society. Nothing really changes in the short term other than there not being any money... but that's only going on what 20ish people have said. What sort of greed do you envisage? Ambition is very much a requirement for a forward thinking society. We can always improve? There just won't be any room for financial ambition and whilst that is the current driving force (granted not wholly), having the best person for the job (i.e. those who have ambition for it) would be a great thing. I'm not worried about someone being better than me coming in and taking my job, or at least I wouldn't be if money wasn't an issue.


:blink: So the more people that share your job the less you have to work? Doesn´t sound fair on the doctors, surgeons, scientists etc.... Your running a bartering system as well? That will turn into a black market with a foreign currency like usd used as an easy way to trade, basically you´ve created Russia before the fall of the wall. Some people do contribute more to society than others, its not uppity its reality. NZ and the world doesn´t need more manual labour, it needs more skilled labour and a world population about half of what we have now.

Plenty of kids want to grow up to be doctors, nurses, surgeons, scientists etc... praps there will be enough doctors etc... that the "unfairness" becomes almost negligible. I'd be happy working 4 hours a day even if there were enough of us to do the job 10 times over and I doubt I'm the only person that, sometimes, actually enjoys working and being productive with their time. No barter system, but if 2 people want to swap things, there isn't going to be a law that bans bartering/swapping "their" items (another personal choice), but granted that won't stop there being a black market where one would be successful, although I can't see where one might exist? The uppity was a joke, as you say some people do do more than their "fair share", but that's a personal choice... however expecting "more" because you perceive that you have put more in is only going to be recognised by those who give a shit and how would you decide who was worth more? Much easier to say thanks for the extra time and move on?

Agreed on the labour. Making maximum use of the available tech and educating the current generation in how to use it etc... would likely see skilled labour rise. We'll still need skilled labour, just because we can implement tech to replace manual labour doesn't mean that it's a sensible use of resources. It'd be good to have manual labour skilled in the tasks that the tech produces so that should the tech break, production doesn't just stop, it potentially just slows down... a bit like having a diesel generator for a gas powered plant.

[Taz]

I was mainly referring to my mind :). Can't vouch for anyone else.... lol

[Woodman]

So who is going to stop me being a drunken, fat, motorbike ridin, non working non contributing member of this society? A lynchmob?

[mashman]

So who is going to stop me being a drunken, fat, motorbike ridin, non working non contributing member of this society? A lynchmob?

No one. No doubt those types of people exist under the current system. I'm sure your contribution will be missed.

[Woodman]

No one. No doubt those types of people exist under the current system. I'm sure your contribution will be missed.

Yes, but with the current system I cannot afford it, but with your system I can do it 24/7.

The point I am trying to make is that why would someone work when they don't have to. What is stopping someone not going to work at the factory that exports stuff that has to meet deadlines, but the workers just come and go as they please with no consequences.

[Ender EnZed]

The point I am trying to make is that why would someone work when they don't have to.

This.^^^

How many people at the moment have a job that they would continue going to if they weren't being paid to and they had heaps of money? I doubt there'd be many.

[NinjaNanna]

Seems to me this ideal meets needs very very well, what I can't get my head around is how is addresses wants and where you draw the line in the sand in regards to greed.

[slowpoke]

Cheers FM... I'm too stoopid to give a shit about what people think of me, specially when the idea is about everyone.

Hmmmm, interesting that you don't care what anyone thinks....yet you are trying to connect with everyone. Good on you for promoting thought but the defeatism and anagonism counteract your good work.

[mashman]

Yes, but with the current system I cannot afford it, but with your system I can do it 24/7.

The point I am trying to make is that why would someone work when they don't have to. What is stopping someone not going to work at the factory that exports stuff that has to meet deadlines, but the workers just come and go as they please with no consequences.

True... go fill yer boots. I'll be working and won't know wether you're working or not unless I live next door to you, so it won't affect my performance.

I understand what you're getting at and as I keep saying, that's your choice not to contribute. It currently happens. Granted I'm arguing for people to have a social conscience, to want a "better" society and to want to contribute in some way or other. Not everyone will have to, but I would hope, yes hope, that the majority would want to... otherwise NOW won't work and I accept that.


This.^^^

How many people at the moment have a job that they would continue going to if they weren't being paid to and they had heaps of money? I doubt there'd be many.

I wouldn't, unless my job was value add for NZ... and that's the point really. If you can do something to help your community thrive under NOW, why wouldn't you? Could you, with free education, encourage participation instead of selfishness? So in regards to the lazy, meh, they already exist. Who knows, they may get off their arses to and do something in their local community for a few hours a week, maybe they won't... It's a choice we would each have to make. The added incentive is not going back to a financial economy (as screwy as that might sound).


Seems to me this ideal meets needs very very well, what I can't get my head around is how is addresses wants and where you draw the line in the sand in regards to greed.

The wants are very much the sticky point and I'm surprised no one has brought up travel yet, as that seems to have been one of the fave's with folk I've chatted to. There are no easy answers to that, just potential ideas. The only real way to gauge how many of the wants we can furnish is to find out how much money the country can make, for imports, and how many of those wants can be satisfied free by doing it locally. Can you give me an example of the type of greed you're concerned with?

[mashman]

Hmmmm, interesting that you don't care what anyone thinks....yet you are trying to connect with everyone. Good on you for promoting thought but the defeatism and anagonism counteract your good work.

heh, negative and antagonistic? I'm not concerned about what people think of me in regards to putting the idea out there, the cuckoo factor, being a wanker etc... the sticks and stones stuff... and I didn't think I was being defeatist or antagonistic? I'm very much a realist :yes:.

Why is it that people can't separate an idea from the person communicating it? they are two entirely different things.

[Zedder]

heh, negative and antagonistic? I'm not concerned about what people think of me in regards to putting the idea out there, the cuckoo factor, being a wanker etc... the sticks and stones stuff... and I didn't think I was being defeatist or antagonistic? I'm very much a realist :yes:.

Why is it that people can't separate an idea from the person communicating it? they are two entirely different things.

You sound surprised Mashman, this is Kiwi Biker after all.

[mashman]

You sound surprised Mashman, this is Kiwi Biker after all.

heh, I wish it were just KB where that sort of thinking prevailed. Damn I wish I had smiley johns smile, I could get away with anyfink.

[Zedder]

heh, I wish it were just KB where that sort of thinking prevailed. Damn I wish I had smiley johns smile, I could get away with anyfink.

Don't tell me you've sought feedback for this load of sh....sorry, I mean this ground breaking manifesto from elsewhere as well.

[mashman]

Don't tell me you've sought feedback for this load of sh....sorry, I mean this ground breaking manifesto from elsewhere as well.

:rofl: yes I have... and fuck off, NOW

[MSTRS]

Whilst it seems like a brilliant idea - on the surface - the more it gets scratched at, the more it's flaws are exposed.
I 'accused' MM of promoting the UltimateCommunistState (TM) and I still think it is. Factor in a large dose of the Hippy movement of the 60s/70s and think Commune. Exactly the same sort of thinking. They worked out well, too. Didn't they?
Commune - Communist. I'm seeing a BIG similarity here.

[NinjaNanna]

Can you give me an example of the type of greed you're concerned with?

To those currently less off than me my wants are luxurious
To me they are simply wants and maybe a little aspirational
To those better off than me my wants are insignificant and easily attainable

I guess my point about greed is who's benchmark do we take for determining what level of want is acceptable and are they handed out even handedly, or will there still be have's and havenot's in NOW - with the major difference being that all will have their needs properly met?

[NinjaNanna]

incidentally I heard an opinion on the radio the other day that stated, "how many millions of people in the world would love access to my rubbish bin, in reality despite the recession and downturn, we are still filthy rich"

sobering thought really.

[MSTRS]

With no reward for (extra) effort, in fact no need to strive for anything, the scene is set for mediocrity.

[Swoop]

The motorcycle is a little trickier. You will order it through a Government website ...
We used to have the Government Stores Board with its associated purchasing/requisitioning nightmare of bureaucracy. Best to not return to it, either.:oi-grr:


So who is going to stop me being a drunken, fat, motorbike ridin, non working non contributing member of this society?
We already have the labour party to represent that sector of society.

[mashman]

Whilst it seems like a brilliant idea - on the surface - the more it gets scratched at, the more it's flaws are exposed.
I 'accused' MM of promoting the UltimateCommunistState (TM) and I still think it is. Factor in a large dose of the Hippy movement of the 60s/70s and think Commune. Exactly the same sort of thinking. They worked out well, too. Didn't they?
Commune - Communist. I'm seeing a BIG similarity here.

With no reward for (extra) effort, in fact no need to strive for anything, the scene is set for mediocrity.

There are bound to be flaws, nothing is perfect and as this is only my perspective, it's hardly surprising. Irrespective though, NOW seems to soleve more problems than it introduces? I agree with you in so many ways. There are most definately similarities and probably more so with Communism than any other ism. Perhaps it's the state of mind that dictates what it is/will be seen as?

:rofl:@no reward. Really? Sure, we've never innovated for any other reason than financial :facepalm:. 99.9% of us are less than mediocre, so it'll be a step up offering people a real opportunity to reach for the stars :blink:

What's the problem with sharing?



To those currently less off than me my wants are luxurious
To me they are simply wants and maybe a little aspirational
To those better off than me my wants are insignificant and easily attainable

I guess my point about greed is who's benchmark do we take for determining what level of want is acceptable and are they handed out even handedly, or will there still be have's and havenot's in NOW - with the major difference being that all will have their needs properly met?

incidentally I heard an opinion on the radio the other day that stated, "how many millions of people in the world would love access to my rubbish bin, in reality despite the recession and downturn, we are still filthy rich"

sobering thought really.


I guess a starting point is, what you never had you will never miss. As brutal as that may sound it's a reality that will have to be dealt with and by dealt with I mean communicated to people. Probably done at a community level and backed by the Govt saying they don't have the money/resources to furnish the wants, similar to how things currently work. I guess it all comes back to the sharing thing? I assume most of the filthy rich will fuck off, but I also assume that plenty will arrive as not everyone needs stuff. When new tech comes out we may get a better bang for buck as we would buy in bulk. Perhaps it would be a yearly thing, those who use the tech more taking precedence... who knows, but it's certainly something that would have to be explored.

Some of the greed element will be removed by what the country can afford. We have to get away from the consumerist society in its current form as it serves next to no purpose at all. Things become disposable and that's not a sustainable way of doing things, hence we need to be smarter with how and what we build/consume. I think some of that will dictate wants, a common sense approach. The idea is that everyone has their basic needs met. Perhaps wants can be earned, but again you then have to assign value to time and then things start getting just as messy as they are today, perhaps it's easier than I think, dunno???

As davereid highlights in his NZTA post, peopless information is worth money to someone.

[MSTRS]

:rofl:@no reward. Really?

Yep. Really.
I don't mean a collective benefit/reward.
I mean individuals. Sure, there's always someone who will go out of their way for no reason other than they can. And society benefits greatly in some of those cases. But to rely on that for the whole thing to work? I don't think so.
People are basically selfish. If I do more than the bloke next door, assuming we have the same type of job, then I want more money/girls/better house/stuff than him. If my extra effort/time gets me the same as he gets from his lazy-arse effort, why should I bother...
As I said - welcome to mediocrity.

[mashman]

We used to have the Government Stores Board with its associated purchasing/requisitioning nightmare of bureaucracy. Best to not return to it, either. :harumph:


There are plenty of ways of implementing this sort of system. Yes it will take some thought and it will have to be done with NOW in mind, but how many things are we really going to need to have imported? No doubt lots of them, but if they can be categorised before ordering, then budgets can be set, or at least validated against and bulk ordering can take place. There may not be the immediate response we have today in regards to getting our goods, but I guess that's a trade off for doing things differently. Making decisions based on the data that you have is easier than guessing at what we need and dealing with the many price fluctuations through many systems etc... I would hope that the pain of bureaucracy would be short lived. Can you think of another way to manage this wort of things under NOW?



Yep. Really.
I don't mean a collective benefit/reward.
I mean individuals. Sure, there's always someone who will go out of their way for no reason other than they can. And society benefits greatly in some of those cases. But to rely on that for the whole thing to work? I don't think so.
People are basically selfish. If I do more than the bloke next door, assuming we have the same type of job, then I want more money/girls/better house/stuff than him. If my extra effort/time gets me the same as he gets from his lazy-arse effort, why should I bother...
As I said - welcome to mediocrity.

There will be people who won't work, there will be people who don't strive, there will be a high level of mediocrity and all of these things exist today but the amount of $$$ one gets paid has a huge say in these things. If people understand the concept of NOW, enough so that they'd have voted it in, then I don't see this being a show stopper at all. I wonder what the percentage of don't minds are in regards to the do minds? In a non-financial context that is.

[MSTRS]

...but the amount of $$$ one gets paid...

That's a whole other bone of contention. And under NOW, it would be a thing of the past.
But, and there are many of them, nothing about NOW encourages the betterment of individuals and their families. Putting aside rates of pay, people work harder/longer/smarter for basically one reason...to benefit that person and their dependents. If everyone is entitled to the same standard of living, by dint of being a citizen, the motivated might have the motivation, but for what purpose? And it is not a sound argument to compare the busy/lazy in the current system...over time the lazy will always be worse off than the motivated. Under NOW the lazy will be way better off, and still do FA for it, whereas the motivated will be exactly the same as the lazy in terms of their standard of living.
Either that, or the motivated will end up in positions of government, which is where the new elite would be.
You can't change human nature.
And human nature, at it's very core, is what ensures any communistic form of system must ultimately fail.

[mashman]

That's a whole other bone of contention. And under NOW, it would be a thing of the past.
But, and there are many of them, nothing about NOW encourages the betterment of individuals and their families. Putting aside rates of pay, people work harder/longer/smarter for basically one reason...to benefit that person and their dependents. If everyone is entitled to the same standard of living, by dint of being a citizen, the motivated might have the motivation, but for what purpose? And it is not a sound argument to compare the busy/lazy in the current system...over time the lazy will always be worse off than the motivated. Under NOW the lazy will be way better off, and still do FA for it, whereas the motivated will be exactly the same as the lazy in terms of their standard of living.
Either that, or the motivated will end up in positions of government, which is where the new elite would be.
You can't change human nature.
And human nature, at it's very core, is what ensures any communistic form of system must ultimately fail.

In what way is it another bone of contention? We currently trade our time for money, under NOW we give it for free, because a job needs doing. Same diff? just different "rewards"?

Ahhh human nature rears its ugly head again. I disagree, to an extent, that human nature will get in the way. If we've voted NOW in and there are people who perceive that they are better than someone else, then that's their problem. They too will "suffer" if they limit their effort. Talk about biting one's nose off to spite one's face. We'll better ourselves as we currently do (some people like to stretch themselves outwith financial reward), we'll skill up as we go, some people will excel, some won't, but all contributions will be required or we all "suffer" the consequences. I'd say we work harder because the job needs doing, not for our families etc... after all if we're on a salary with no bonus system, we've worked for nothing and it hasn't improved anything for us in the slightest... other than self-esteem maybe.

The more effort we all put in, in regards to exporting, the more wants we can afford? Should be incentive enough. One doesn;t get, we all don;t get (give or take)... who knows, there may be some form of incentive scheme, but that is inherently dangerous as that breeds those who believe that they are better than someone else, an attitude that is exceptionally stupid and narrow minded and quite possibly the primary reason the world is in the shitter.

What I'm saying is that if we have voted out the financial system in favour of NOW, then we are probably prepared to do what we need to do for everyone, otherwise there'd be no reason to implement NOW if it was doomed to failure through lack of participation... ending up in us returning to the financial wing. I reckon you'd see much better attitudes in people under NOW. There ya go with them thar labels again. I understand why you'd use them, but even Communism used money in their society's...

At the end of the day you can choose to watch the shit mount up, or you can do something about it and if that means losing out on some of your wants, why wouldn't you? and if NOW was voted in by the majority, those who don't like it can take the money and leave. Not every system is doomed to failure. We have so many things in our favour that former "communistic" country's didn't have. Shame we let our own prejudices fuck over future generations. People can and do change! I obviously have more faith in human beings being able to be positive than some do, removing money and value will go a long long long way to changing our society for the better and yes, we will probably have to make a sacrifice or two. I'm game, the pros by far outweigh the cons for humanity and society and by default me.

[Swoop]

Yes it will take some thought and it will have to be done with NOW in mind, but how many things are we really going to need to have imported? No doubt lots of them, but if they can be categorised before ordering, then budgets can be set, or at least validated against and bulk ordering can take place.
Yup. Still sounds like the GSB.
Order the item "now" and get it delivered in around 10 months time. But not the item you ordered.
Someone else wanted a gsxr 1000, you wanted a harley and we all get a GN250 delivered.

[mashman]

Yup. Still sounds like the GSB.
Order the item "now" and get it delivered in around 10 months time. But not the item you ordered.
Someone else wanted a gsxr 1000, you wanted a harley and we all get a GN250 delivered.

heh, praps it would work were people gave a shit? Bikers buying bikes for bikers etc... specialist units

[MSTRS]

heh, praps it would work were people gave a shit? Bikers buying bikes for bikers etc... specialist units

Which is how Man came to be an urbanised creature in the first place. Of course, no-one wanted to give up the spare time/luxuries that were then afforded to them by doing their bit - so SLAVES were created to do the scut work.
What makes you think that wouldn't be exactly what happens again?

[mashman]

Which is how Man came to be an urbanised creature in the first place. Of course, no-one wanted to give up the spare time/luxuries that were then afforded to them by doing their bit - so SLAVES were created to do the scut work.
What makes you think that wouldn't be exactly what happens again?

That's a tad unfair? It was a small group who decided that because they knew better, or felt they were smarter, they could have slaves. So very very very few gave up their time. The majority put in the effort.

You could argue that exactly the same mechanism is in operation today with all of the stupid laws that we have in place, couple that with holding people in check using inflation and interest rates to minimise the "buying" power of employees (slaves). If everything were free we wouldn't need to work other than to subsist our existence. But as we are an amazing creature, some of us will excel and build useful things as individual creativity is very much in our nature, yet it's constrained by budget. I'd like to see that unleashed, oh fuck would I... what are we truly capable of? How much untapped potential is there? I will always believe that the majority would forgo their luxuries if they were offered something, "better".

As for stopping it from happening... There will be no "owners" for one, no single entity able to tell you what to do. That's the whole point I've been trying to make. Coercion will eventually fail, as will undervaluing people in a financial world (hence the right getting rid of unions... no strength in numbers, no LEGAL right to protest your conditions :facepalm:). Free will is everything. People just need to exercise it and hopefully will be willing to do "their bit" to keep us rockin forwards. We're much smarter these days, well, in the context of what we know. Why not use it to its maximum instead of drip feeding it because it costs too much of that paper stuff that banks print when they feel like it. INSANITY!

[mashman]

I care not if this does the idea a disservice. It is true. It's going out to tonight or tomorrow night. I have 173 parliament related email addresses and am looking for a list of media email addresses if anyone has any (someone must have a list after the ACC thing?). Fuck it. If it goes nowhere, it goes nowhere... it isn't just my fault :killingme

OMG another wall of text, heh...

Representatives of New Zealand.

http://www.now-nz.com

In light of your apparent lack of idea, I have created the above website to offer a different way forwards for the people of New Zealand.
One which will do more for this country than you have been unable to provide for decades if not centuries of your political ideologies. You
have failed. It's a simple as that. I don't care who and what you blame for the problems we face today, you have done nothing but shift
budget from one vote winning policy to the next. You pay lip service to the people of New Zealand and claim that you are serving the people.
Child poverty, homelessness, austerity budget cuts in the name of saving money whilst blowing out borrowing like no government has ever
before you, recession, the removal of personal freedom, the incarceration of people for things that YOU deem as crime, the list is almost
endless... You have failed as we are not going forwards. What are the chances that we'll be the next Greece in 20 years time? Perhaps 40
years? Yes it matters! That should give us another 2 or 3 recessions. You can't deny that recession will return to these shores and if
we're down to selling off the assets that New Zealanders have paid for over countless decades, then what will be left to sell the next time
we have a recession? You have been unable to protect us from any recession, what makes you think that you can change that cycle? That's an
honest question, one that I would like an answer to if you could take a little time.

Who am I to question your ability? I am no-one and as far as I am concerned that is damning to your credibility. I can see a way forwards
for Kiwi, where you keep going sideways, or backwards, playing the same game year in year out and expecting different results. Einstein
describes this as insanity: "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. "... We
are looking for real leadership not the political side show you offer, the nice smiles, the dirty laundry, the empty promises etc...! Where
are the new ideas? All we have is the right wing wanting private industry to run things and the left wing wanting to socialise everything
with a finite budget. Are you ever going to change your stance given that it has achieved absolutely nothing other than make a few people
financially rich and a lot of people financially poorer? Or do you feel it has worked thus far and therefore if it ain't broke don't fix it?
I am disappointed given that you have sought out office and are holding yourselves up as the right people for the job, the people who want
to lead Kiwi into a brighter future. Where are you leading us?

In my 41 years you have given me NOTHING to vote for! So I've built upon a well known idea and offer you a way of freeing New Zealand
and it's inhabitants, a glimpse into what really seems to matter to people. Do the majority of the people feel the same way as me? I don't know, but I'm guessing that they do. We need to change the way we live, you keep saying as much, the whole world keeps saying as much. Time to up your game and come out fighting for all of New Zealand.

I challenge you to remember who you represent.

Yours sincerely

NOW