Te Wiki o Te Reo Māori - Maori Language Week!

[curious george]

http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/Gallery/tereo/


Tena koutou katoa....
Like I said... Just found out it's Maori language week. w00t!
Kaore taku reo Maori i te tino pai.

Several red necks in my near location have passed this off as more useless PC dribble, (and will be voting ACT), as it has no real worth at all.

And this is true to a point.
No significant commerce will ever happen in Maori that I can forsee, the major language of NZ will likely stay English, and couldn't our kids do something better with their time and my money then learn an obsolite language? Even latin has a greater use, (especially at med school for instance...)

So without looking like a sandel wearing-tree hugging hippy-gay friendly-culturally aware type of guy, what's wrong with learning a little bit about our extra melanin coated friends?

Isn't our history something to be proud of?
NZ loves the All Blacks, but how many know all the words to the Haka?, or what they mean?
All of the places we live in have Maori names that mean something, most of which can be understood by cobbling together two or more nouns, thus giving a place name of significance.
At the moment, there seesm to be a real push for Maori just to be PC... not because of any desire to learn another language or recognise another culture, but just to be 'seen doing the right thing'.

I reckon, why waste any time on that at all?
It's insulting to Maori, and does nothing for anybody else, except piss people off.
We have a country with two strongly intertwined cultures and languages, but only one is really recognised.

Leaving two possible directions to take....
1: Ditch the tokenism, and get on with life as an ENGLISH speaking country, with only historical reference to our Maori past.

2: Have a properly integrated Maori education system in schools, teaching the basics, working up to something like high school level.

What do ya reckon then, you lot?
How about learning a little bit about the place you live in.
Could this be constructive as a nation, or devisive?

[curious george]

Actually, if I can add another 2c, I dont really like the term 'Pakeha'.
I've always thought 'New Zealander' or even 'pacific islander' to be more appropriate.
Anybody got a better word?

[Big Dave]

Actually, if I can add another 2c, I dont really like the term 'Pakeha'.
I've always thought 'New Zealander' or even 'pacific islander' to be more appropriate.
Anybody got a better word?


Australian......(kidding) I'd take exception to it - Pakeha i mean.

Us immigrants struggle enough with the place names, but the Maori language question is a hard call. Having two cultures is kinda cool if they can co-exist - shame if it becomes a divider?

I've noted an escalation in race politics since living here, but I still reckon that if you go into a Manukau restaurant and see all the brown, white, black, asian, and other people, all mixed and having a good time - all at the same table - and it's all as natural as can be - then I think that maybe it ain't too bad really.

Edit - Or what about a KB ride! - that's a rather mixed bunch too eh.

[Coyote]

Maori Language Week.... yaaaaaaaayyy......

I might have more respect when they ditch their attitude and their Von Dutch Hoodies

[curious george]

I'm a New Zealander or a Kiwi,end of the story.
You got that right!
Just to note though, you said
I belive Maori need to speak their own language and it's certainly not going to harm the odd Pakeha to open their eyes to it either.
I think that's part of the problem - it always seems to be two different species we are talking about.
This I dont really understand. I'm no more European than I'm Afro-American. I'm not brown enough to be Maori, (at least that's what I'm told), but NZ is my home.
I really think that is part of the problem at the moment recognising two different species, and according different values and privilages to each.
Anybody who has done a 'cultural safety day' at work or a 'bi-cultural day' will know what I'm talking about.

[oldfart]

I have enough trouble with english without worrying about a dead language that has to bastardise english words to try & re invent itself. My precious lif is also to short to waste learning something I would find mind numbingly boring. This probably why I got ejected from form 2 French. :bs:

[Quasievil]

Oh for fucks sake show some respect would you, its the bloody heritage and culture of New Zealand for christs sake !

[Big Dave]

Von Dutch Hoodies


Ironic that the Britney types wear them too:

"Von Dutch was as talented as he was prolific, becoming the first person to airbrush monsters on clothing, turning out eerie, surrealistic paintings, building and etching expensive knives and rare vintage guns, and striping hundreds of hot rods over the years.

He’s remembered today for that body of work, but also for the larger-than-life persona he fashioned—the drinking, carousing pinstriper who did as he pleased. Much of that image was real, and according to those who knew him, it included a serious dark side.

"He was quite a racist; didn’t like anybody. He had all the trappings of being a neo-Nazi. He could not tolerate black people," said Williams, whose friendship with Dutch cooled over time, but never ended. "But I had some wonderful times with him. When you caught him in a good mood he was really wonderful to talk to. But he would slip into these loud violent periods that were just horrible."

That edge wormed its way into his work. In one 1965 painting, Dutch faded in the words "Fuck You," visible if you look long enough.

Pinstriper Franco Costanza, a.k.a. Von Franco, remembers Dutch grudgingly striping a guy’s glossy, beautiful ’34 Ford—and painting a tiny, perfect ladybug on one pillar, just to annoy the owner. When the man found the ladybug, he demanded Dutch take it off.

"So [Dutch] says, ‘Okay, I’ll take it off,’" recalls Franco, a burly, jovial man with a jet-black pompadour and goatee. "He takes this hammer and just smashes the ladybug, just ruins this guy’s paint job and tells him to get the fuck out of there."

Writer Ken Gross, in The Rodder’s Journal, a quarterly car mag, tells the tale of one kid who drove his car to the West Coast just so Dutch could stripe it. On the glove compartment door, Dutch drew a caveman in a diaper, holding a headless, bloody cat, an atrocity the owner masked with cardboard whenever he dated, but felt compelled to preserve as art.

Von Dutch distrusted people and was paranoid in public. Williams said Dutch would "park right at the edge, so that if something happened he could get out. He had a gun on him within a minute’s reach."


More here:

http://www.ocweekly.com/ink/04/18/cover-douglas.php
"

[oldfart]

Oh for fucks sake show some respect would you, its the bloody heritage and culture of New Zealand for christs sake !

Why would I. I couldn't give a rat's, (not you Dave) about my european culture. When was the last time you went to ballet or the opera? So I'm fecked if I'm going to waste my time on some other crummy cultural shite. I'll stick to bikes & other things that interest me thanks all the same. :devil2:

[oldfart]

Not species,but definatly different people.
When Maori lost their language they also lost a lot of their identity.
I'm not in the lest bit interested in how or why they lost their language but the fact remains they did.
Today they are starting to address this and a lot of non Maori seem to feel threatened by this.
I don't really understand why people should be threatend,it's seems a very positive thing to me.
The interesting thing I've noticed,and this is because I have a lot of contact with Te Reo in my work.The people learning it an teaching it are no more interested in the crap PC stuff than anybody else.They just want to know their own language.
So do I as it's a part of my own history as much as english is.

Agree in principle but dislike having any cultural shite shoved down my throat by some git like Max Cryer & his precious language. If people want to learn Maori, or any other cultural thingies, then more power to them. Just don't bug me with it & DON'T EXPECT ME TO PAY FOR IT. I nominate my tax to go on better roads :mad:

[SixPackBack]

Embrace it folks......its bloody COOL......don't you get a rush when the all blacks do the haka, i do
most of us are related to maori, one of our mates is maori etc. Nothing to be scared of but some thing to embrace and tresure, our ancestors will be pissed if we do not keep it alive :yes:

[Motu]

English is the language of commerce,computers and what they speak in 747s to the control tower,it's gotta be the most important language on the planet - but it's made up of so many other languages...even Maori.

I got no problem with Maori,but I don't want it rammed down my throat.I've sent my girls for Maori lessons,I think it's important for them to know.I always have a Maori dictionary near me,I want to get the spelling right,I like to see what the word is made up from,kinda like latin,of which I know nothing.I have chosen a Maori username I use all over the internet,I hope it indentifies where I come from.

For a Pakeha I suppose I identify quite well with Maori,I have had close Maori friends all my life.When I meet one I don't pidgeon hole them like I do others....Dutch,Samoan,Chinese,Russian etc,I don't need to,they are just like me,a New Zealander,we share the same heritage.I know a few Maori words,work on correcting my 1950s pronunciation,which is a bit embarrasing at times.

They can have Maori Language Week,but it will pass over me un noticed like all the political speeches this week will too.A road test on the new Buel Ulysses
in Maori? Ok,that will get me involved!

[GROOMER]

2: Have a properly integrated Maori education system in schools, teaching the basics, working up to something like high school level.


It should not be compulsory. If parents want their kids to learn it...fair enough,
If they don't, it should not be forced on the kids.
Same as "bible studies" or whatever its called these days. At primary school, parents were asked first if they wanted their kids to take part in it, if not..they went and did music class or went to the library for an hour.

[Pixie]

Australian......(kidding) I'd take exception to it - Pakeha i mean.

Us immigrants struggle enough with the place names, .
Woolloomoolloo is a doddle by comparison????

[Big Dave]

Woolloomoolloo is a doddle by comparison????

a real Horuwhenua story

[oldfart]

I got no problem with Maori,but I don't want it rammed down my throat.I know a few Maori words,work on correcting my 1950s pronunciation,which is a bit embarrasing at times.

They can have Maori Language Week,but it will pass over me un noticed like all the political speeches this week will too.A road test on the new Buel Ulysses
in Maori? Ok,that will get me involved!

Totally agree - love it when the news readers call Motueka
"Mott chew eka" :yes:

[SimJen]

The languauge is there, If people want to learn it fine but it shouldn't be forced upon our kids in schools or the general public. Sure its nice for people to spell and pronounce it correctly but considering people have trouble with the pronounciation of basic english words then its a bit of a waste trying to teach everyone.
The majority of NZers have no interest in the culture or the language, that doesn't make them bad people.

[Lias]

The languauge is there, If people want to learn it fine but it shouldn't be forced upon our kids in schools or the general public. Sure its nice for people to spell and pronounce it correctly but considering people have trouble with the pronounciation of basic english words then its a bit of a waste trying to teach everyone.
The majority of NZers have no interest in the culture or the language, that doesn't make them bad people.

OMG you evil politically incorrect racist nazi colonial oppressor (tm)

You are oppressing the tangata whenua with your racist attitudes and the bro's are going to have to get another $500 million froom the guberment because you hurt their feelings :nono:

[MSTRS]

The compulsory thing is insidious & it makes me quite uncomfortable. Has anyone noticed on TV One that the voices now say 'Only on Tahi/One' ? And why, if it is necessary, does the Maori bit get said first?

[Storm]

Now you've gone and given them the idea bugger ya ! And its election year so they'll collect large

[Quasievil]

Why would I. I couldn't give a rat's, (not you Dave) about my european culture. When was the last time you went to ballet or the opera? So I'm fecked if I'm going to waste my time on some other crummy cultural shite. I'll stick to bikes & other things that interest me thanks all the same. :devil2:

Not that long ago, you closed minded fool

[oldfart]

Not that long ago, you closed minded fool

Sorry, didn't realise that was you in the tutu with breast augmentation :motu:

[Motu]

Kareponia was called California back in my fathers days in the 30s,and before - there is even a AA road sign saying California.,well there was last time I was up there 5 years ago.

[kerryg]

http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/Gallery/tereo/


Tena koutou katoa....
Like I said... Just found out it's Maori language week. w00t!
Kaore taku reo Maori i te tino pai.

Several red necks in my near location have passed this off as more useless PC dribble, (and will be voting ACT), as it has no real worth at all.

And this is true to a point.
No significant commerce will ever happen in Maori that I can forsee, the major language of NZ will likely stay English, and couldn't our kids do something better with their time and my money then learn an obsolite language? Even latin has a greater use, (especially at med school for instance...)

So without looking like a sandel wearing-tree hugging hippy-gay friendly-culturally aware type of guy, what's wrong with learning a little bit about our extra melanin coated friends?

Isn't our history something to be proud of?
NZ loves the All Blacks, but how many know all the words to the Haka?, or what they mean?
All of the places we live in have Maori names that mean something, most of which can be understood by cobbling together two or more nouns, thus giving a place name of significance.
At the moment, there seesm to be a real push for Maori just to be PC... not because of any desire to learn another language or recognise another culture, but just to be 'seen doing the right thing'.

I reckon, why waste any time on that at all?
It's insulting to Maori, and does nothing for anybody else, except piss people off.
We have a country with two strongly intertwined cultures and languages, but only one is really recognised.

Leaving two possible directions to take....
1: Ditch the tokenism, and get on with life as an ENGLISH speaking country, with only historical reference to our Maori past.

2: Have a properly integrated Maori education system in schools, teaching the basics, working up to something like high school level.

What do ya reckon then, you lot?
How about learning a little bit about the place you live in.
Could this be constructive as a nation, or devisive?


More power to you, CG :clap:

I'm an old Pakeha with all the old Pakeha prejudices but you can't escape the fact that Maori were cheated and brutalised and exploited by our forebears. Not even that long ago either. They are now over-represented in the statistics for short life expectancy, criminal offending, alcolhol abuse and so on and that's a pattern repeated among indigenous peoples in other countries (look at the aborigines or Native Americans or Inuit). They were culturally marginalised (how about being forbidden from speaking their language at school, in my lifetime?). Talk of "all just being New Zealanders regardless of colour or creed" is all very well, and resonates with most of us I imagine, but Maori got the the dirty end of the stick for a long time (that's a fact, beyond dispute, and history has recorded it) and deserve an extra helping hand. I don't agree with every Maori loony who wants us white folk to go back to England (don't think the Poms would have me anyway :no: ) but if we can look past the extreme element there is a big job waiting to be done in terms of re-paying the social debt to Maori. Language is a vital part of cultural identity and quite properly the Maori language needs to be treated as a living language (i.e. in actual everyday use). It's the least the Maori are owed.


My 2 cents worth

[Lou Girardin]

Perhaps their language would survive if the Maoris learnt it. Just as the Welsh, Scots and Irish have done.
Although on the face of it it seems an easy language to learn, the multiple pronounciations must be confusing though. Maybe that's why they don't bother.
I do object to having this stuff forced on us using our tax dollars and fronted by people who deny their parentage by changing their names, eg. Hammi Piripi ( Sam Philips?)
I think I'd prefer to learn Italian, I wonder if there's a grant to do that?
After all, the Govt stole our land in Wellington too.

[madboy]

I appreciate that there are legitimate grievances that need to be aired and resolved. It is important that Maori feel that due consideration is given to their historical issues. I don't agree that giving away billions of dollars to be mis-managed and wasted is an adequate resolution.

Unfortunately, human nature being what it is, only the extreme elements get presented in the media. I, like the vast majority of middle-class european descent NZ, have little contact with real Maori culture other than those extreme elements that are presented to me by the media as being on the receiving end of the tax that I work f***ing hard to earn. It's those useless bludgers that create a negative impression of the Maori culture in my mind.

Just like people have a negative perception of motorcyclists because the media shows the 1 in 300,000 that kills someone while doing something stupid. It's just a fact of life.

So while people judge someone me as an idiot not a bike enthusiast, I judge Maori's as undeserving of my tax dollars. Don't like my opinion, sue me. :oi-grr:

[oldfart]

there is a big job waiting to be done in terms of re-paying the social debt to Maori.

Oh goodey. Being of Celtic descent, according to this, I can expect heaps of compo from the Romans/Saxons/Normans/English who farked over my ancestors. They can all learn my bloody language too, that'll learn them. Feckin tourists :devil2:

[kerryg]

Oh goodey. Being of Celtic descent, according to this, I can expect heaps of compo from the Romans/Saxons/Normans/English who farked over my ancestors. They can all learn my bloody language too, that'll learn them. Feckin tourists :devil2:

Yeah, fair enough. . but if I get your point, it's a big step from suggesting that (some, I grant you , not all) modern Maori are carrying the legacy of generations of exploitation, land theft, cultural marginalisation etc...to saying that I am personally accepting responsibility for it. Hell no! But it can't be denied, not plausibly anyway, that bad shit was done to Maori. If we, the taxpayer, don't pay to redress at least some of the harm done, who will?

I read up a bit on the Treaty (e.g Claudia Orange's book, I forget the title)and even for someone like me, raised on the notion that Pakeha brought civilisation to those ignorant savages (oh..and VD, TB and some other good stuff), it challenges old conceptions about the status of the Pakeha here.

I don't buy into white liberal guilt or cultural cringe...just think we should acknowledge the truth of the past.

That Maori have in some cases made a pig's- arse of thingsa when getting money off the Crown (eg Tainui settlement, Te Wananga, Tuku's $80 underpants...the list is long) is a worry, but it doesn't alter the legitimacy of their grievances and needs. Who can argue that paying for stolen land or that providing special targeted resources to help Maori upskill (e.g. Te Wananga) is not a good thing? The problem lies in the execution.

[oldfart]

[QUOTE=kerryg]Yeah, fair enough. . but if I get your point, it's a big step from suggesting that (some, I grant you , not all) modern Maori are carrying the legacy of generations of exploitation, land theft, cultural marginalisation etc...to saying that I am personally accepting responsibility for it. Hell no! But it can't be denied, not plausibly anyway, that bad shit was done to Maori. If we, the taxpayer, don't pay to redress at least some of the harm done, who will?QUOTE]

First thing is, you are correct, like any conquered race, the Maori got right royally reemed of just about everything. As to compensation, well how bout the decendents, (called loosley English), Romans/Saxons/Normans?Pakis give my Welsh ancestors back their feckin & intoducing deseases etc. How far do you go with this. Also add in the interesting statistic that there is not one pure blooded Maori left alive. This means every Maori alive has some european parentage. That's why some of their more redical fringes have unique maori names like Mike Smith & are whiter than I am. :no:

[kerryg]

[
As to compensation, well how bout the decendents, (called loosley English), Romans/Saxons/Normans?Pakis give my Welsh ancestors back their feckin & intoducing deseases etc. :[/QUOTE

My last word, I promise.

I guess where I'm coming from has several parts: firstly, that it's fair to posit that it is largely because of past unfair treatment of Maori by Pakeha that Maori now feature disproportionately in the indicators like crime statistics, diabetes, early death, educational under-achievement etc etc. (The only other way to interpret it is that they are just, somehow, well, inferior. :no: See where that goes?). So, it's a matter of justice, putting right past injustices. Secondly, remedy the causes of those anomalies (how, of course, is another matter !!!)and this is a better/safer/healthier place to live. Thirdly, these are our fellow NZers, who have, by the way, in the view of better-educated people than me...OK that means everyone...generously (even unwisely) allowed us white fullas to stay in their country. The least we owe them is to help a man when he's down, more particularly when we are living (you could say) on the fruits of their sacrifice.

[SimJen]

When the English came to NZ the Maori was lucky to have not been wiped out. If it had been the Spanish then it would have been a slaughter and we would not be arguing these points. People have to move on, they may have been ripped off but that was a choice made at the time by their cultural leaders many years ago.......just the same way Labour gives us taxpayers no choice with how they spend our money.
Times change. Im not racist, but if I chose to be it would be my right as a human being. As it is everyones right to not care about the Maori language or the Maoris plight if they choose to. I don't care for Harleys and nothing will change my mind :)

[Lou Girardin]

For God's sake, now we're getting into Post Colonial Trauma Syndrome.
If the Maoris think they have it bad, go and talk to American Indians, South American Indians, anyone ruled by the Spaniards or, to a degree, the French.
THERE WAS NO HOLOCAUST IN TARANAKI.

[Quasievil]

Sorry, didn't realise that was you in the tutu with breast augmentation :motu:

Im not sure mate but Im thinking you have a attitude to some New Zealanders which is sad.
I think alot of people are only to keen and eager to maori bash and I think its a pity because youre missing out. I think that perhaps you have not traveled much either or been involved in any other race outside your own. Im not going to have a slaging match but I do pity you sorry arse

[curious george]

Another thought I just had... the National Anthem.
Makes my skincrawl.
Can't stand it, the words are like fingernails down a blackboard.
The Maori version however, is an auditory delight!
I don't understand all the words, (cant remember the 3rd or 4th verse of the english one either), but it sounds sooo much better.
How about we drop the English version altogether and just go Maori?
None of this 1/2 and 1/2 crap either....
Somebody else started the flag thing, but I still haven't seen a better design, so that can stay.
Any problems?

[madboy]

I think alot of people are only to keen and eager to maori bash and I think its a pity because youre missing out. Many Maori I know are nice perfectly normal human beings. And most of them irrespective of skin pigmentation think pretty much the same way I do.

I think the issue lies in how society at present is responding to the Maori by overcompensating in many ways. It's awfully easy to bash an entire ethnicity when their "leaders" stand up in a public forum and claim my great great great great granddad's 4th cousin twice removed f***ed them on a land deal, so now it's time that I paid up. That's not going to do anything but stimulate racism and intolerance.

If you look at human psychology, people who look at the past don't have much of a future. Time to move on.

[oldfart]

Im not sure mate but Im thinking you have a attitude to some New Zealanders which is sad.
I think alot of people are only to keen and eager to maori bash and I think its a pity because youre missing out. I think that perhaps you have not traveled much either or been involved in any other race outside your own. Im not going to have a slaging match but I do pity you sorry arse

Gosh old chap, didn't know you knew me so well from just a couple of post. You should be able to divine winning lotto tickets with skills you display. If you know kk ask him to give me a charater reference before making such profound judgements on so little :nono:

[curious george]

Fair kicked their ass if my schoolboy history serves me correctly....
Only reason the Moriori don't complain is they got completly done over. And then eaten.

[Quasievil]

Gosh old chap, didn't know you knew me so well from just a couple of post. You should be able to divine winning lotto tickets with skills you display. If you know kk ask him to give me a charater reference before making such profound judgements on so little :nono:

perhaps if you werent so closed minded about other cultures and races it might make you an person interesting enough to go to the trouble of knowing

[oldfart]

perhaps if you werent so closed minded about other cultures and races it might make you an person interesting enough to go to the trouble of knowing

From your comments I can only deduce that you have not read my comments & thought about them with an open mind. My points were

1/ I endorse people who wish to study Maori language, ballet, swahili ,what ever as long as I'm not expected to pay for it & don't have pushed down my throat.

2/ As I don't expect the country to pay for my interest which is m/cycles, I don't expect to pay for this cultural interest of others.

3/ The Maori were right royaly reemed by my ancestors. In context of the times, this was the norm & was no less or more then what the Maori themselves were doing to fellow tribes. Does this mean that every race/culture should recompense every other culture that has been farked over in history & if so how far back do you go.

[Quasievil]

From your comments I can only deduce that you have not read my comments & thought about them with an open mind. My points were

1/ I endorse people who wish to study Maori language, ballet, swahili ,what ever as long as I'm not expected to pay for it & don't have pushed down my throat.

2/ As I don't expect the country to pay for my interest which is m/cycles, I don't expect to pay for this cultural interest of others.

3/ The Maori were right royaly reemed by my ancestors. In context of the times, this was the norm & was no less or more then what the Maori themselves were doing to fellow tribes. Does this mean that every race/culture should recompense every other culture that has been farked over in history & if so how far back do you go.

I have a very open mind actually

re 1/ the tone of that makes me think you find it offensive.

re 2/ I believe the government has a role to play in funding cultural activities, weather its the orchestra, or a young musicians video Ie NZ on Air, I have no problem with tax dollars also going to other cultures activities, particulary if they are of National significance, like Maori language.

re 3/ In some cases absolutely, particulary when the government right royaly reemed the Maori (NZ citizens) in very recent times.
Many claims etc are very very justly deserved. its just an attitude develops by the ignorant and the racists of this country.And that is sad.

[oldfart]

I have a very open mind actually

re 1/ the tone of that makes me think you find it offensive.

re 2/ I believe the government has a role to play in funding cultural activities, weather its the orchestra, or a young musicians video Ie NZ on Air, I have no problem with tax dollars also going to other cultures activities, particulary if they are of National significance, like Maori language.

re 3/ In some cases absolutely, particulary when the government right royaly reemed the Maori (NZ citizens) in very recent times.
Many claims etc are very very justly deserved. its just an attitude develops by the ignorant and the racists of this country.And that is sad.

And I accept that you have a different view point to me. One of the great things about democracy is we all get to vote for a political party that we believe is most likely represent our ideology. It saddens me that you use this forumn to abuse me & use personal slurs to try to make your veiwpoint as being superior or better than mine. I have not enjoyed my 1st social engagement with you at all. :no:

[curious george]

2/ As I don't expect the country to pay for my interest which is m/cycles, I don't expect to pay for this cultural interest of others.

Just wee point, but I (we) do pay for your Motorcycling stuff.
If you were to crash, you will get treated for free in hospital, and we will pay you a wage while you get better.

If we were to invoke a rule baning Motorcycles, we (the tax payer) would save millions and millions.
Of course, we would also ban smoking, rugby and everything not played in cotton wool, but you get my drift..

[Lou Girardin]

Just wee point, but I (we) do pay for your Motorcycling stuff.
If you were to crash, you will get treated for free in hospital, and we will pay you a wage while you get better.

If we were to invoke a rule baning Motorcycles, we (the tax payer) would save millions and millions.
Of course, we would also ban smoking, rugby and everything not played in cotton wool, but you get my drift..

We are actually subsidising the car drivers that cause the majority of bike bins. In other countries they or their insurance companies would be paying.

[SimJen]

I have a very open mind actually
re 3/ In some cases absolutely, particulary when the government right royaly reemed the Maori (NZ citizens) in very recent times.
Many claims etc are very very justly deserved. its just an attitude develops by the ignorant and the racists of this country.And that is sad.

Trouble is why should a people that is not truly indigenous have rights to land they took from someone else.... Racism doesn't come into its just not right.
If it was the American Indians or the Aboriginies then it would be different, but Maoris tell us they came from somewhere else yet they still believe they have the right to it.
People always use the "Racist" term to attack anybody that goes against their views and in most cases it will stop an argument dead in its tracks.

[kerryg]

This is good site to have a look at

www.treatyofwaitangi.govt.nz

There are different interpretations of tino rangatiratanga and governance and sovereignty etc as we all know but IMHO some things are really plain even to a layman: the Treaty was intended to establish a system of law and order, in large part to avoid conflicts arising from the aggressive accquisition of land by British immigrants and commercial interests (eg the NZ Company) in the absence of a proper system of law. Read the Treaty. It's set out plainly there.

It was not something imposed by the conquering British on the Maori, the Maori were NOT a conquered race, and in fact the number of non-Maori in NZ at that time was quite small (sealers and whalers mostly as I understand it, partying up large in Kororareka), so it is wrong to think of the Treaty of Waitangi on the same context as (say) the Treaty of Versailles which was something imposed on a defeated Germany.

NZ didn't belong to the British by virtue of conquest. There was no conquest. Maori and Pakeha stood equal when the Treaty was signed. The Maori didn't "give ownership" of NZ to the British, however you interpret the Treaty. I don't believe that point is in dispute, and it's an important point.

To compare the British in NZ to the Spanish in South America, for example, is to confuse conquest (the Spanish case) with something altogether different i.e. an agreement to be governed by one system of law (the Maori/Pakeha case)

[oldfart]

Just wee point, but I (we) do pay for your Motorcycling stuff.
If you were to crash, you will get treated for free in hospital, and we will pay you a wage while you get better.

If we were to invoke a rule baning Motorcycles, we (the tax payer) would save millions and millions.
Of course, we would also ban smoking, rugby and everything not played in cotton wool, but you get my drift..

After 35 years of paying taxes & ACC levies, and never having claimed on either, I believe I am entitled to some hospital time. I also pay Health Insurance. So I would not consider my using these facilities as free, rather pre-paid. :no:

[Quasievil]

And I accept that you have a different view point to me. One of the great things about democracy is we all get to vote for a political party that we believe is most likely represent our ideology. It saddens me that you use this forumn to abuse me & use personal slurs to try to make your veiwpoint as being superior or better than mine. I have not enjoyed my 1st social engagement with you at all. :no:

Of course we have a different point of view,I dont think I have abused you though and used slurs if you have taken it that way I do apologize.
I have enjoyed our debate and given you a good rep for it.
Have a good one.:drinkup:

[ManDownUnder]

Oh for fucks sake show some respect would you, its the bloody heritage and culture of New Zealand for christs sake !

I hear ya - but I'd suggest it's part of the heritage and culture.

I respect it, I like it, and I have no problem with some taxes being channeled toward preserving it, and it artifacts (current and ancient).

I do see it as part of the NZ cultural landscape though - like Catholicism, Chinese Language and the multitude of other cultural influences we see all around us.

If you're Maori, you speak Maori and/or understand the culture - I am impressed. There seems to be a richness and depth to your backg4round I feel I don't have. I don't feel lacking - I feel you are blessed.

Likewise if you are Chinese, Asian, or Peruvian.

My perspective on it is this. Some of my best friends are Maori - they were Maori before they were my friends, but they were 'my friends' long before they were 'Maori'. (It makes sense if you read it enough times)

MDU

[oldfart]

Of course we have a different point of view,I dont think I have abused you though and used slurs if you have taken it that way I do apologize.
I have enjoyed our debate and given you a good rep for it.
Have a good one.:drinkup:

Well, with a reply like that, I have to think I'm the one being who needs to pull in my head so I'll apologise if I've given offence. As they we'll agree to disagree, one of the good things about being a kiwi is we are allowed to do this. :yes:

[Quasievil]

Trouble is why should a people that is not truly indigenous have rights to land they took from someone else.... Racism doesn't come into its just not right.
If it was the American Indians or the Aboriginies then it would be different, but Maoris tell us they came from somewhere else yet they still believe they have the right to it.
People always use the "Racist" term to attack anybody that goes against their views and in most cases it will stop an argument dead in its tracks.


MMmm I understand what youre saying but I dont agree.

[pharoahsoulero]

hi fellas, kareponia is a spanish not maori word, it was a fabled place in spanish literature much like el dorado, and is the original name given by the spanish to what is now baja california/california on the west coast of north america,the name california developed from this over the years as settlers from northern europe arrived and put their own slant/pronounciation on it

[pharoahsoulero]

Kareponia was called California back in my fathers days in the 30s,and before - there is even a AA road sign saying California.,well there was last time I was up there 5 years ago.
hello mate, kareponia is a spanish word,it was a fabled land in spanish literature much like el dorado,it was the original name given by the spanish settlers to what is now baja california/california on the west coast of north america,the name morphed into california with the arrival of north european settlers who put their own slant/pronounciation to it